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Belwas
07-12-2012, 04:13 AM
If meal timing and nutrient sources aren't too important (common sense applies) and you can only gain a limited amount of muscle mass over a given period of time, then whats the deal about pre and post workout nutrition and different types of protein powders such as casein before bed? Is it to help reach this maximum growth or will basic macros suffice?

Please dont flame, Im just trying to learn..

lee__d
07-12-2012, 04:24 AM
Pre workout nutrition is important to performance in the gym, not body composition.

Don't worry about protein digestion speeds.

Ahmed81
07-12-2012, 04:33 AM
Marketing. Companies will tell you that you need whey directly after lifting to hit the "Anabolic window", and casein for night time to avoid a catabolic state. Money makers

71Avido
07-12-2012, 04:33 AM
Marketing.

SuffolkPunch
07-12-2012, 04:47 AM
Meal timing is not important withing the context of a single day. The anabolic window exists, it's just a lot larger than people think - and digestion and nutrient delivery is a lot slower than people think.

I'm not sure what you mean about nutrient sources not being important...

mattypoole
07-12-2012, 04:47 AM
Pretty much what all the posters in here have said OP.

Stay safe.

snorkelman
07-12-2012, 05:10 AM
It is so nice to read these responses in the nutrition section. There are a handful of knowledgable posters in the supplement section, but the reader must sift through all the reps giving biased comments, and the ignorant bros chiming in.

There are even some parrots in the nutrition section who often post a knee-jerk comment about nutrient timing being meaningless or "irrelevant," which is incorrect. The timing of nutrients is certainly important for athletic performance.

Also, if you have been around for a while, then you have seen Alan's sticky on nutrient timing evolve. There are a lot of factors involved, and there can be situations when it would be helpful to time nutrients, but 95% of the people are of the TL;DR crowd and need soundbites. Thus, the current sticky is concise.

Belwas
07-12-2012, 05:36 AM
Thank you for the replies, much appreciated!

I have read the start of that sticky Snorkelman and understand about nutrient timings being more important for athletes training for long periods but I will go back and read more.

naturalguy
07-12-2012, 05:45 AM
Pre workout nutrition is important to performance in the gym, not body composition.

Don't worry about protein digestion speeds.

Performance in the gym will affect body composition

mattypoole
07-12-2012, 05:49 AM
Performance in the gym will affect body composition

Nowhere near as much as hitting macros and calorie targets will, hence the whole thing about timing being down in the heirachy of importance in relation to body composition etc.

lee__d
07-12-2012, 05:53 AM
Performance in the gym will affect body composition

In that case, yes, chronic under performance in the gym would affect body composition.

I kind of look at the issue as an acute sort of problem that one would fix before it became an issue.

Ajaro
07-12-2012, 06:01 AM
Performance in the gym will affect body composition

Coffee = body composition

nobrah
07-12-2012, 06:05 AM
Pre workout nutrition is important to performance in the gym, not body composition.

Don't worry about protein digestion speeds.
A minor addendum would be that people nearing their genetic limit who already have their diet and training dialed in can benefit from less effective optimizations like nutrient timing. It's not that such things are completely irrelevant, just that their effect is so small compared to energy balance and macro/micronutrient sufficiency that they're effectively irrelevant until you nail down the latter.

Focusing on minutia when there are more important things left to accomplish isn't totally pointless, but it's certainly not an efficient approach.

naturalguy
07-12-2012, 06:06 AM
Nowhere near as much as hitting macros and calorie targets will, hence the whole thing about timing being down in the heirachy of importance in relation to body composition etc.

I will respectfully disagree and I know I am in the minority but it's been my experience that training has a much bigger effect than people give credit for. You hear statements all the time about people saying diet is 80-90% of your results. I say BS, training is just as important.

lee__d
07-12-2012, 06:14 AM
A minor addendum would be that people nearing their genetic limit who already have their diet and training dialed in can benefit from less effective optimizations like nutrient timing. It's not that such things are completely irrelevant, just that their effect is so small compared to energy balance and macro/micronutrient sufficiency that they're effectively irrelevant until you nail down the latter.

Focusing on minutia when there are more important things left to accomplish isn't totally pointless, but it's certainly not an efficient approach.

I'd disagree and say that those advanced lifters MAY benefit from tweaked nutritional approaches (a la Lyle's UD2.0).


I will respectfully disagree and I know I am in the minority but it's been my experience that training has a much bigger effect than people give credit for. You hear statements all the time about people saying diet is 80-90% of your results. I say BS, training is just as important.

I agree. They both need to be executed properly.

I think it comes from the fact that nutrition can so easily be effed up. For instance (if you're cutting), negating a mile run with 600 calorie muffin from dunkin donuts or smashing it in the gym, but not getting nearly enough protein. Also, in the context of life, training takes up so little time compared to nutrition ( what I mean is that you can screw up your diet in an instant at any point in the day, shopping for food, meal prepping if you do that. Whereas you're in and out of the gym in an hour or 2). Idk if that makes sense, but i think that's the way some ppl look at it.

nobrah
07-12-2012, 06:15 AM
I will respectfully disagree and I know I am in the minority but it's been my experience that training has a much bigger effect than people give credit for. You hear statements all the time about people saying diet is 80-90% of your results. I say BS, training is just as important.
As always, it depends. If you're obese then diet is indeed the biggest factor because no amount of training will fix a diet that keeps you obese; I'd say that here diet is 90% and training 10%. If you're lacking in muscle mass then training becomes more important, but diet is still critical to promote a net anabolic environment and in terms of training you could do damn near anything and still make gains; diet would be maybe 70% and training 30%. If you're well into the path of bodybuilding with both muscle mass and low body fat then diet and training are equally important and interdependent for optimal results.

WonderPug
07-12-2012, 06:15 AM
I will respectfully disagree and I know I am in the minority but it's been my experience that training has a much bigger effect than people give credit for. You hear statements all the time about people saying diet is 80-90% of your results. I say BS, training is just as important.In regard to achieving a "you obviously lift" body, they're not mutually exclusive and thus ranking by percentage is not particularly probative.

In regard to achieving a "you look thinner" body, it's pretty much just diet that governs.