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wjs010
07-01-2012, 10:58 PM
It is obviously flawed in the USA. I know it is the American way to turn 18 and move out of the 'rents house. I was one of them. I probably could write a book on how flawed the value for education is here in the us. I am not for school being free because I know it would come out of others pockets. It would BR nice if it was free though. I think universities here try too hard to run like businesses, when they shouldn't. Idk if people even care about knowledge and if our country is leading the wirkd( it's not) in math or science. To me, I think the avg dude gets out of high school and moves away from home. For some reason that is a requirement. Next, it's all about a part time job to pay for school. This job basically consumes his life when schooling should be the top priority. I'm curious, why can't the us have a different education system?

School tuition should be way cheaper, loans should have way lower rates, teachers should be appreciated at all levels, so that the best of the best try to teach the upcoming generation. Michio Kaku has a program in new york in which the phd is made up entirely of foreign students. The us seems to have a lower quality of education because so much is emphasized on the cost of school that it becomes a more important issue than excelling academically. My rant is wandering aimlessly but the point is, it's obvious America doesn't have the best system. So the question is why don't we? And what country should we use as a template?

ColdSpire
07-01-2012, 11:00 PM
Schools are just like any other business. Don't give a crap about their customers (students) and just want to maximize profits. They use the money making mentality to make all their decisions such as money allocation, student acceptance, etc.

A-GAME
07-01-2012, 11:01 PM
Schools are just like any other business. Don't give a crap about their customers (students) and just want to maximize profits. They use the money making mentality to make all their decisions such as money allocation, student acceptance, etc.


This.

LennardiVooDoo
07-01-2012, 11:03 PM
It is obviously flawed in the USA. I know it is the American way to turn 18 and move out of the 'rents house. I was one of them. I probably could write a book on how flawed the value for education is here in the us. I am not for school being free because I know it would come out of others pockets. It would BR nice if it was free though. I think universities here try too hard to run like businesses, when they shouldn't. Idk if people even care about knowledge and if our country is leading the wirkd( it's not) in math or science. To me, I think the avg dude gets out of high school and moves away from home. For some reason that is a requirement. Next, it's all about a part time job to pay for school. This job basically consumes his life when schooling should be the top priority. I'm curious, why can't the us have a different education system?

School tuition should be way cheaper, loans should have way lower rates, teachers should be appreciated at all levels, so that the best of the best try to teach the upcoming generation. Michio Kaku has a program in new york in which the phd is made up entirely of foreign students. The us seems to have a lower quality of education because so much is emphasized on the cost of school that it becomes a more important issue than excelling academically. My rant is wandering aimlessly but the point is, it's obvious America doesn't have the best system. So the question is why don't we? And what country should we use as a template?

Although Americans hate to here this, why not emulate countries with the best education?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index

I'll give you a hint, the vast, vast majority of those countries on the list above the US have free, or government sponsored education. But of course, that would be tyranny, and it's a much better use of tax dollars (700 billion vs 50 billion to be precise) to spend that money on weapons and missiles despite the fact that the US spends more on military than the next 24 countries combined (23 of whom are allies).

wjs010
07-01-2012, 11:30 PM
Although Americans hate to here this, why not emulate countries with the best education?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index

I'll give you a hint, the vast, vast majority of those countries on the list above the US have free, or government sponsored education. But of course, that would be tyranny, and it's a much better use of tax dollars (700 billion vs 50 billion to be precise) to spend that money on weapons and missiles despite the fact that the US spends more on military than the next 24 countries combined (23 of whom are allies).

I don't mind hearing it. I know for a fact the problem falls in line with my op. either schools are too expensive and force students to incurr massive debt, which could shun smart, brilliant minds away from college all together. I know two guys who were both in gifted classes in elementary who are Waaay smarter than me but neither has graduated with a B.s. they didn't grow up as financially lucky as me as a kid and so they knew they couldn't go to school. While I think education is important enough to incurr any debt, I do understand why these two brilliant guys ended up in the national guard.

The other problem is that students have this mentality of " I must have job during college". Seriously if taxes paid for a big part of college, kids would ( hopefully not a blanket statement coming ) have more time to excel and actually learn. It has some to do with parenting, some to do with students being kids, and a LOT to do with a lack of value for education.

Streetbull
07-02-2012, 03:36 AM
The pay is too low and the classes are too large.

Until there are about 18 kids per class and the teacher makes what an engineer makes, the classes will be large chaotic cesspools run by Susie or Stevie who majored in Education because it was the easiest major.

NeoginCF
07-02-2012, 06:04 AM
Although Americans hate to here this, why not emulate countries with the best education?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index

I'll give you a hint, the vast, vast majority of those countries on the list above the US have free, or government sponsored education. But of course, that would be tyranny, and it's a much better use of tax dollars (700 billion vs 50 billion to be precise) to spend that money on weapons and missiles despite the fact that the US spends more on military than the next 24 countries combined (23 of whom are allies).

This list counts literacy and enrollment.

I don't think we should measure first world countries by literacy since basically if it is not at 99%+ there is a serious problem. The other one is enrollment which counts the amount of education recieved not the quality. With the amount of college graduates you guys have it is no wonder you have such a high score.

From what I understand the american HS system is completely bogus. (Which is also something that reflects in my college textbooks).


Over here university is basically free at 600€ tuition and scholarships for whoever falls under a certain income level, so anyone can start. There is a mechanism to prevent people from staying in university for 10 years without any degree.

GermanBB
07-02-2012, 06:28 AM
in many areas...

there's a major discipline problem in the public schools. I mean terrible...

wjs010
07-02-2012, 07:18 AM
This list counts literacy and enrollment.

I don't think we should measure first world countries by literacy since basically if it is not at 99%+ there is a serious problem. The other one is enrollment which counts the amount of education recieved not the quality. With the amount of college graduates you guys have it is no wonder you have such a high score.

From what I understand the american HS system is completely bogus. (Which is also something that reflects in my college textbooks).


Over here university is basically free at 600 tuition and scholarships for whoever falls under a certain income level, so anyone can start. There is a mechanism to prevent people from staying in university for 10 years without any degree.
It is bogus. It's a surprise I can even form a coherent sentence with the grammar that I wasn't taught my whole life. My dad taught me more grammar than school did lol. In high school, one year all I did was play poker during english class :( turns out English is stronger than math for me. Guess I got lucky, but yes I have to think if school was that affordable, everyone would go. It would be a nice thing to know that even low low class are getting their degrees instead of leeching.

Realism
07-02-2012, 07:45 AM
in many areas...

there's a major discipline problem in the public schools. I mean terrible...

I think addressing the problems that are occurring at the secondary school level is paramount. You have kids entering college with poor academic skills. They can not write well or grammatically, they do not have a grasp on pre-calc concepts, they have poor reading comprehension skills, and they have little passion for learning itself. So now we have an influx of sub-par students entering school because it has become quasi-mandatory in our culture.

Taking into account that tuition seems to be inelastic, universities can continue to hike tuition and it will have little affect on demand. Instead of saying "school is too expensive maybe I should rethink the merits of going to college right out of high school", they'll find ways to finance their education.

I would love to live in a world where everyone is highly educated but it appears that we have decreased our standards at every level while pedaling the worth of a college degree. I do not think you can seriously address the costs without addressing secondary school education and our culture. In the late 90s through the mid 2000s we attached the "American Dream" on to home-ownership. Unqualified borrowers qualified for housing partially because the government demanded an increase in home-ownership, which helped create a bubble that ultimately exploded. I believe that we are experiencing the same exact thing except you can insert college education with home-ownership.

What's sad is that people that hold this belief will be labeled as anti-education, just as those that questioned the merits of increased home-ownership at the expense of standards were threatened with being label as anti-home-ownership. This obviously isn't the case at all, I just want us to address the problem at the ground level not at the university level. There is a lot of fat you can trim at many universities but tuition will continue to rise or remain stagnant at a high price unless we make some fundamental changes that all start at the secondary level.

NeoginCF
07-02-2012, 08:08 AM
It is bogus. It's a surprise I can even form a coherent sentence with the grammar that I wasn't taught my whole life. My dad taught me more grammar than school did lol. In high school, one year all I did was play poker during english class :( turns out English is stronger than math for me. Guess I got lucky, but yes I have to think if school was that affordable, everyone would go. It would be a nice thing to know that even low low class are getting their degrees instead of leeching.

Well they can get a degree, lot's of them don't though.

Our secondary school system is built like a waterfall atm (they're trying to change it though), most kids start at the top where the courses are very general. They prepare yourself for a further education in university it's a useless degree on it's own. If you fail here you get dumped down the waterfall into a more technical course which gives the possibility to either keep studying but most won't get past a proffesional bachelor or start working directly. Then last (and least) we got the skilled courses which essentially make you ready to start working a certain skill at the age of 18 (plumber/mechanic).

In my opinion this is a decent way to efficiently to employ people to their full potential, some politicians disagree and want a longer general education for everyone. These complaints come from a lot of people being a jackass in their first few years and tumbling down towards the technical or below. But tbh I don't believe anyone failing in those first few years will make it through university anyways.