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sy2502
06-26-2012, 04:25 PM
This story in the Italian news this morning. As some of you know, Italy is going through some really tough economic times, with high unemployment.
Translating from the original language article:

"Unemployed, with a wife and 2 small children, a man shoplifted in a supermarket near Siena. The shop owner, having found out, called the police, but then decline to press charges. At that point, the police officers paid out of their own pocket the stolen items: pasta, milk, diapers, and baby food."

http://corrierefiorentino.corriere.it/firenze/notizie/cronaca/2012/25-giugno-2012/disoccupato-ruba-pasta-pannolini-poliziotti-pagano-spesa-201757805388.shtml#.T-nxWQNZLvA.facebook

While I don't condone breaking the law, I do believe in the application of common sense and compassion. I find the "zero tolerance" policies remove this.

Also, I though the cops were very decent in helping the guy out of their own pocket instead of dragging him to jail. This is the kind of behavior that gives me back some hope in the human species.

SP1966
06-26-2012, 04:35 PM
This story in the Italian news this morning. As some of you know, Italy is going through some really tough economic times, with high unemployment.
Translating from the original language article:

"Unemployed, with a wife and 2 small children, a man shoplifted in a supermarket near Siena. The shop owner, having found out, called the police, but then decline to press charges. At that point, the police officers paid out of their own pocket the stolen items: pasta, milk, diapers, and baby food."

http://corrierefiorentino.corriere.it/firenze/notizie/cronaca/2012/25-giugno-2012/disoccupato-ruba-pasta-pannolini-poliziotti-pagano-spesa-201757805388.shtml#.T-nxWQNZLvA.facebook

While I don't condone breaking the law, I do believe in the application of common sense and compassion. I find the "zero tolerance" policies remove this.

Also, I though the cops were very decent in helping the guy out of their own pocket instead of dragging him to jail. This is the kind of behavior that gives me back some hope in the human species.

I agree, very decent of the police. However, I would be a bit concerned about others expecting the same treatment which could lead to some serious problems. Life can be a real damned if you do, damned if you don't ride. :(

sy2502
06-26-2012, 04:42 PM
I agree, very decent of the police. However, I would be a bit concerned about others expecting the same treatment which could lead to some serious problems. Life can be a real damned if you do, damned if you don't ride. :(

I agree with you, this shouldn't set a precedent. Knowing Italy, I doubt it will. But at a time in which the government has no money to spend in its people in need, it's nice if the people themselves take some initiative in helping one another.

wedjim
06-26-2012, 04:59 PM
It is something to think about from a political perspective as well. Generosity is still viable, if it is encouraged rather then penalized.
Just the thought that the government is the one with money for people in need, is a bit alarming. Does the government have any money, or does the government take the money from the people. People who might otherwise take care of others themselves. People are generally pretty generous, until they begin the mindset or think, "the government takes care of that."

Italy
Spain
Greece
France
etc.

The countries where the government "helps" the most, all are out of money fastest. So are the people they collect it from who need to steal to survive now.

I guess it would only be truly scary if we were headed the same direction.

sy2502
06-26-2012, 05:05 PM
It is something to think about from a political perspective as well. Generosity is still viable, if it is encouraged rather then penalized.
Just the thought that the government is the one with money for people in need, is a bit alarming. Does the government have any money, or does the government take the money from the people. People who might otherwise take care of others themselves. People are generally pretty generous, until they begin the mindset or think, "the government takes care of that."

Italy
Spain
Greece
France
etc.

The countries where the government "helps" the most, all are out of money fastest. So are the people they collect it from who need to steal to survive now.

I guess it would only be truly scary if we were headed the same direction.

Don't know about the other countries, but Italy unfortunately is a big spending government. And people have got used to expect the government to take care of everything. Which is strange because historically, the Italian government doesn't exactly have a good track record of taking care of anything...

http://operachic.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/02/14/jobs_perplexed.jpg

Anyway, now Italy has zero money for absolutely anything so I guess the point is moot for them... :)

wedjim
06-26-2012, 05:16 PM
Don't know about the other countries, but Italy unfortunately is a big spending government. And people have got used to expect the government to take care of everything. Which is strange because historically, the Italian government doesn't exactly have a good track record of taking care of anything...

http://operachic.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/02/14/jobs_perplexed.jpg

Anyway, now Italy has zero money for absolutely anything so I guess the point is moot for them... :)


True, I just hope they can come up with a solution and the people can live with and adjust to the new standard. Time will tell.

Phattso
06-26-2012, 05:33 PM
We could all probably learn from the culture of Italy. Passion and compassion. Nice story.

sy2502
06-26-2012, 05:33 PM
We could all probably learn from the culture of Italy. Passion and compassion. Nice story.

As long as you don't learn from their politics :D

Phattso
06-26-2012, 05:36 PM
As long as you don't learn from their politics :D

Yes, ma'am :) Quite true.

mslman71
06-26-2012, 05:42 PM
As long as you don't learn from their politics :D

Happens all the time here, one way or the other, it just doesn't make news.

The local grocery store where I grew up ran, and might still run, "credit lines" for local farmers and their hands knowing full well that there was a good chance they'd not see all that money back, especially during harder years. Others would help cover these costs if they had the means. You cannot be broken down on the side of the road for more than 5 minutes out where my folks are without an offer for a ride or a look under the hood. There are plenty of good people and reasonable and compassionate acts out there, but they don't sell advertising space.

SP1966
06-26-2012, 05:42 PM
As long as you don't learn from their politics :D

I don't think the American left would agree with you.

wedjim
06-26-2012, 05:58 PM
Happens all the time here, one way or the other, it just doesn't make news.

The local grocery store where I grew up ran, and might still run, "credit lines" for local farmers and their hands knowing full well that there was a good chance they'd not see all that money back, especially during harder years. Others would help cover these costs if they had the means. You cannot be broken down on the side of the road for more than 5 minutes out where my folks are without an offer for a ride or a look under the hood. There are plenty of good people and reasonable and compassionate acts out there, but they don't sell advertising space.

BINGO! Some don't realize the news is selective. Lately the trend is to create division(and it's fears), which is odd, since United we stand?
It's sad watching politics over the years and seeing the same exact people arguing FOR something they were AGAINST when the other party did the very same thing and it happens from all sides.

What a country if we were all Americans before anything else and what a world if we were all "Humans being" before also! The division is the problem, yet the news almost never runs positive stories that might unite us? Weird. :)

pvsampson
06-26-2012, 06:07 PM
Good on the coppers.That guy must have had one hell of a story.Things are obviously very tough "over there".

I am so lucky to live where I do.

fn257
06-26-2012, 06:17 PM
Well I have to say good on the popo and the shop owner. Don't know the whole story but I was raised to do what you have to do to take care of yourself "but" shoplifting would be at the bottom of the list. We will never know but did the man first go to the shop owner and offer to sweep the floors, clean windows or stock shelves in return for some provisions or did he just go in and jack the man first. Shop owner seems to be a decent guy, he might have said sure we can work something out. He forgave him for stealing from him, seems logical. Hell, he might have given him some work periodically to help him. Just being the cynical old fart that I am, I kinda think this wasn't the perps thought process.

sy2502
06-27-2012, 09:49 AM
Happens all the time here, one way or the other, it just doesn't make news.

The local grocery store where I grew up ran, and might still run, "credit lines" for local farmers and their hands knowing full well that there was a good chance they'd not see all that money back, especially during harder years. Others would help cover these costs if they had the means. You cannot be broken down on the side of the road for more than 5 minutes out where my folks are without an offer for a ride or a look under the hood. There are plenty of good people and reasonable and compassionate acts out there, but they don't sell advertising space.

I wasn't trying to say Italy is better than the US, sorry if you interpreted it that way. I just happened to run across this bit of news while reading the Italian newspaper. If I had read similar news on an American site I would have posted it too. I found it uplifting and thought of sharing it. It wasn't meant to rustle your jimmies.

Marius_Ursus
06-27-2012, 09:51 AM
This story in the Italian news this morning. As some of you know, Italy is going through some really tough economic times, with high unemployment.
Translating from the original language article:

"Unemployed, with a wife and 2 small children, a man shoplifted in a supermarket near Siena. The shop owner, having found out, called the police, but then decline to press charges. At that point, the police officers paid out of their own pocket the stolen items: pasta, milk, diapers, and baby food."

http://corrierefiorentino.corriere.it/firenze/notizie/cronaca/2012/25-giugno-2012/disoccupato-ruba-pasta-pannolini-poliziotti-pagano-spesa-201757805388.shtml#.T-nxWQNZLvA.facebook

While I don't condone breaking the law, I do believe in the application of common sense and compassion. I find the "zero tolerance" policies remove this.

Also, I though the cops were very decent in helping the guy out of their own pocket instead of dragging him to jail. This is the kind of behavior that gives me back some hope in the human species.

Jean Valjean approves. ;)

sy2502
06-27-2012, 09:52 AM
I don't think the American left would agree with you.

Don't even get me started.... When I hear some proposals in American politics, I start screaming at the TV "NOOOO, it doesn't work, don't do it, PLEEEZ don't do it! I have seen how it turns up, it's not pretty!" I really like the US, and it drives me crazy to see it go the European way, which I left on purpose.

mslman71
06-27-2012, 10:11 AM
I wasn't trying to say Italy is better than the US, sorry if you interpreted it that way. I just happened to run across this bit of news while reading the Italian newspaper. If I had read similar news on an American site I would have posted it too. I found it uplifting and thought of sharing it. It wasn't meant to rustle your jimmies.

No, if my jimmies are rustled, the writing will reflect it unambiguously. The point is that there is nothing to learn from the Italians or Italian culture in particular, but to emphasize that on a local scale people are generally good to one another and want the same things regardless of their nationality.

sy2502
06-27-2012, 10:14 AM
No, if my jimmies are rustled, the writing will reflect it unambiguously. The point is that there is nothing to learn from the Italians or Italian culture in particular, but to emphasize that on a local scale people are generally good to one another and want the same things regardless of their nationality.

I don't think I ever said Americans better learn from Italians or Italian culture.

mslman71
06-27-2012, 10:15 AM
I don't think I ever said Americans better learn from Italians or Italian culture.

The response was to the thread as a whole, not just your text.

Marius_Ursus
06-27-2012, 10:28 AM
The point is that there is nothing to learn from the Italians or Italian culture in particular,

Dude.

Moozarel'?

Prozhute?

Ziti?

Gina Lolabridgida?

mslman71
06-27-2012, 10:29 AM
Dude.
Moozarel'?
Prozhute?
Ziti?
Gina Lolabridgida?

Gesundheit

http://www.montrealfilmjournal.com/dat/pic/M0000208.jpg

Marius_Ursus
06-27-2012, 10:32 AM
Gesundheit

Achtung!

Wenn ist das Nunstrück git und Slotermeyer?

Ja! ... Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput.

mslman71
06-27-2012, 10:34 AM
Wenn ist das Nunstrück git und Slotermeyer?
Ja! ... Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput.

Hahaha, I nearly died laughing.

Dave76
06-27-2012, 10:37 AM
Well I have to say good on the popo and the shop owner. Don't know the whole story but I was raised to do what you have to do to take care of yourself "but" shoplifting would be at the bottom of the list. We will never know but did the man first go to the shop owner and offer to sweep the floors, clean windows or stock shelves in return for some provisions or did he just go in and jack the man first. Shop owner seems to be a decent guy, he might have said sure we can work something out. He forgave him for stealing from him, seems logical. Hell, he might have given him some work periodically to help him. Just being the cynical old fart that I am, I kinda think this wasn't the perps thought process.
I see that you live in Irving, TX, my old home town. That probably explains why we think almost exactly alike on this issue. Repped.

BillReilly
06-27-2012, 10:49 AM
We could all probably learn from the culture of Italy. Passion and compassion. Nice story.

We are, which is why we are going broke too. People who study these things find that Americans are the most generous with their time and money. Ireland second, Australia, New Zeland then the UK fifth. All English speaking countries, which is not a coincidence. The English traditions of self-reliance, rule of law and limited government lend themselves to the creation of civic institutions like charities.

Phattso
06-27-2012, 10:51 AM
Well I have to say good on the popo and the shop owner. Don't know the whole story but I was raised to do what you have to do to take care of yourself "but" shoplifting would be at the bottom of the list. We will never know but did the man first go to the shop owner and offer to sweep the floors, clean windows or stock shelves in return for some provisions or did he just go in and jack the man first. Shop owner seems to be a decent guy, he might have said sure we can work something out. He forgave him for stealing from him, seems logical. Hell, he might have given him some work periodically to help him. Just being the cynical old fart that I am, I kinda think this wasn't the perps thought process.

I would agree if the shoplifter stole only food or whatever, but I am guessing that since he also stole diapers, that could have been the selling point for the cops to show mercy.

Phattso
06-27-2012, 10:54 AM
We are, which is why we are going broke too. People who study these things find that Americans are the most generous with their time and money. Ireland second, Australia, New Zeland then the UK fifth. All English speaking countries, which is not a coincidence. The English traditions of self-reliance, rule of law and limited government lend themselves to the creation of civic institutions like charities.

I was not referring at all about the Italian government. But, I agree that we are also going broker because the incentives to be in business are being eaten away by the leftists. It makes sense to at least me, that taxes should be lowered across the board to create opportunity and growth by way of incentives. Not to be penalized for success.

sy2502
06-27-2012, 11:02 AM
We are, which is why we are going broke too. People who study these things find that Americans are the most generous with their time and money. Ireland second, Australia, New Zeland then the UK fifth. All English speaking countries, which is not a coincidence. The English traditions of self-reliance, rule of law and limited government lend themselves to the creation of civic institutions like charities.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/145589/civic-engagement-highest-developed-countries.aspx

It's an interesting result because there's a common tendency to think of richer countries being more selfish and less in touch with the needy while countries with high levels of poverty would have a more close nit system of mutual assistance.

On the other hand, I wonder if the study above isn't misleading. For example, in Italy people aren't likely to volunteer for strangers (work in soup kitchens, etc) but they are very likely to put a lot of time and effort in taking care of, say, their elderly parents, or disabled relatives, or help out friends and family in need. Yet we wouldn't call that "volunteering", it's just what you do.

Marius_Ursus
06-27-2012, 11:29 AM
I tend to put the cart behind the horse and consider those "rich" countries as being so successful because of their overall generous nature. After all, helping my brother prosper helps me prosper.

Too bad the real greed and not the trumped up imaginary greed is driving everything everywhere into the ground.

BillReilly
06-27-2012, 11:59 AM
http://www.gallup.com/poll/145589/civic-engagement-highest-developed-countries.aspx

It's an interesting result because there's a common tendency to think of richer countries being more selfish and less in touch with the needy while countries with high levels of poverty would have a more close nit system of mutual assistance.

Just a hunch, but I suspect we think this is we have romanticized our own history a bit. "When America was a simpler place people did not have much but they stuck together...." We have this image in our heads and assume it is both true and consistent with poverty. Just a guess.


On the other hand, I wonder if the study above isn't misleading. For example, in Italy people aren't likely to volunteer for strangers (work in soup kitchens, etc) but they are very likely to put a lot of time and effort in taking care of, say, their elderly parents, or disabled relatives, or help out friends and family in need. Yet we wouldn't call that "volunteering", it's just what you do.

Yeah, I think there can be some pretty big quibbles as to what constitutes "civic engagement." I notice again the strong British influence on the list. The economic freedom is also high. We see in our own country that government crowds out charity, so that makes some sense. Less government, more private institutions to fill charitable needs.

fn257
06-27-2012, 12:31 PM
I see that you live in Irving, TX, my old home town. That probably explains why we think almost exactly alike on this issue. Repped.

"my old home town" repps to you for being smart enough to leave. Irving is surely not the small quiet place it used to be.


I would agree if the shoplifter stole only food or whatever, but I am guessing that since he also stole diapers, that could have been the selling point for the cops to show mercy.

Yes, if he had stolen brew and cigs, off to the pokey!

Whiskeyjack
06-27-2012, 12:35 PM
Less government, more private institutions to fill charitable needs.

That likely, you think?

Marius_Ursus
06-27-2012, 12:49 PM
That likely, you think?

Not only likely, it's what more corporations were like 100 years ago in the US.

sy2502
06-27-2012, 01:24 PM
I have also seen first hand a lot of very compassionate behavior here in the US. For example, we used to have a homeless guy occasionally wonder around our neighborhood. He was in a very bad state, and gravely mentally ill. He would never accept anything from anybody, would in fact cuss you away if you tried to give him anything. But he did go through the trash cans of the local fast food joint for food. So a few of us neighbors got into the habit that if we saw him near the fast food joint, we'd buy a meal, wrap it as tight as possible, and throw it in the trash. That way we hoped he'd find it. It got to a point that several people all over the neighborhood started doing just that. It was very neat. Unfortunately the homeless guy was eventually found dead (of natural causes I think) under the bridge that was his home. Poor guy.

BillReilly
06-27-2012, 01:39 PM
Not only likely, it's what more corporations were like 100 years ago in the US.

Probably the best example in this area is medicine. Catholic Charities provided free medical care to the needy in every city in America. Teaching hospitals routinely operated free clinics for the poor as a way to train young physicians. of course, family doctors would adjust their fees to assist those with limited resources. Now, Medicaid has displaced all of it at a much higher cost to society than charity.