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View Full Version : Just one (out of many) reasons you need to know how to fight/defend yourself



bodyhard
06-20-2012, 07:03 AM
especially when you are older and living in the Bronx. This happen last week, the bus driver (65 years old) just clipped the mans car and he might have met his death, he is in a coma.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Bronx-School-Bus-Driver-Beaten-Coma-Life-Support-Accident-Juan-DelValle-159659175.html

flairon
06-20-2012, 07:04 AM
looks more like a reason you need a cwp and a good pistol

bodyhard
06-20-2012, 07:08 AM
looks more like a reason you need a cwp and a good pistol

That's true to, but not everyone wants to carry a gun. If the older man knew how to defend himself, although he might not have won the fight, he at the very least could have lessen/avoided the two blows.

Ohh forgot to ask what is CWP?

-=FLEX=-
06-20-2012, 07:22 AM
Ohh forgot to ask what is CWP?

Concealed Weapon Permit.

ArchAngel'73
06-20-2012, 07:47 AM
I am armed to the teeth with my Vulcan death grip, the Force, and a light sabre.
Come @ me.

beachguy498
06-20-2012, 09:12 AM
My son lives in The Bronx... pretty tough to navigate a car through some of those streets. Too bad for that guy and his family, life is too cheap sometimes. I agree that you need to stay in shape as you get older, wards off many evils.

Rob

crupiea
06-20-2012, 09:17 AM
If you have to arm yourself to fight off the savages who are roaming the streets with no respect for human life, maybe moving would be a better option.

Karl_Hungus
06-20-2012, 09:26 AM
If you have to arm yourself to fight off the savages who are roaming the streets with no respect for human life, maybe moving would be a better option.

^^ This. But if I did live there, I'd prefer a gun rather than duking it out with a bunch of street thugs.

9KwMK78idpA

mslman71
06-20-2012, 09:44 AM
Lose-lose situation. Forgetting the whole civil servant thing, how could this scenario have played out with a pistol:

1) Bus driver clips car - situation not too bad, probably not the first time it happens, most people are irritated but sh*t happens
2) Bus driver stops vehicle and exits to survey damage - What should his alert condition be at this point and how does he proceed?
3) Bus driver encounters owner of struck vehicle - how far away is he from the other owner? How does he maintain separation?
4) Struck vehicle owner closes distance - at this point, if there is sufficient distance, the time to draw to shoot is in the millisecond range, and what is the judgement call for self defense?
5a) Weapon is drawn and not fired, he gets his ass kicked and or shot with weapon after it is taken
5b) Weapon is drawn and he shoots aggressor - reasonable knowing what we know after the fact, but in NYC he is dead meat in the courts
5c) Weapon is drawn and aggressor stops - wishful thinking, but possible

I guess what I'm getting at here is how would I/you handle this situation while carrying? Would I have drawn and fired in this situation? My gut feeling is no....

MrNismo
06-20-2012, 10:02 AM
Defending yourself doesn't even necessarily mean that you have to know how or be great at fighting either. One of the best pieces of advice I have ever heard in regards to defending yourself is that when in these types of situations you draw an imaginary line on the ground which gives you safe distance from your aggressor. If they cross this line you are either backing up or ripping **** up but never standing toe to toe without any sort of plan.

You see videos like this all the time where 2 guys are nose to nose yelling at each other but one of them doesn't really think/want to be in the fight and he gets knocked out. If you don't want to be in the fight then you better be giving a lot more space between you and the other person.

As to the thug in this video I hope to hell that he gets murder charges when the old man dies.

cowboybiker
06-20-2012, 10:10 AM
http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/077/ea2/a09/resized/courage-wolf-meme-generator-bring-a-knife-to-a-gun-fight-stab-them-while-there-laughing-8851c1.jpg

m9a1mike
06-20-2012, 10:40 AM
especially when you are older and living in the Bronx. This happen last week, the bus driver (65 years old) just clipped the mans car and he might have met his death, he is in a coma.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Bronx-School-Bus-Driver-Beaten-Coma-Life-Support-Accident-Juan-DelValle-159659175.html

Sad, but true. Such a lack of civility in society.


looks more like a reason you need a cwp and a good pistol

A fist fight usually does not justify use of deadly force. Will just get you in more trouble.

flairon
06-20-2012, 10:44 AM
Sad, but true. Such a lack of civility in society.



A fist fight usually does not justify use of deadly force. Will just get you in more trouble.

Hmm...get in 'more trouble'...or get beat into a coma or worse...decisions decisions...

m9a1mike
06-20-2012, 10:47 AM
Hmm...get in 'more trouble'...or get beat into a coma or worse...decisions decisions...

Or pull a gun on a single, unarmed attacker and be Tiny's b*tch for life.

flairon
06-20-2012, 10:51 AM
Or pull a gun on a single, unarmed attacker and be Tiny's b*tch for life.

unarmed is irrelevant. There are tons of examples of people getting beat to death by an unarmed assailant. If given the choice...do you think the old man in the story would rather have put a bullet in the guy, or do you think he's happy being in a semi-vegitative state with a catheter in his urethra, being fed through a tube and sh*tting in a bag. My money is on the bullet option.

m9a1mike
06-20-2012, 11:01 AM
unarmed is irrelevant. There are tons of examples of people getting beat to death by an unarmed assailant. If given the choice...do you think the old man in the story would rather have put a bullet in the guy, or do you think he's happy being in a semi-vegitative state with a catheter in his urethra, being fed through a tube and sh*tting in a bag. My money is on the bullet option.

The laws in most states, if not all, would say otherwise. Especially in NYC. It's likely one cannot even get a concealed carry permit in NYC. Which is why BH stated in the thread title "Just one (out of many) reasons you need to know how to fight/defend yourself".

What do you think would happen to the old man in jail???? Do you really think he would be left alone??? Most likely, he would be beaten senseless on a daily basis.

flairon
06-20-2012, 11:05 AM
The laws in most states, if not all, would say otherwise. Especially in NYC. It's likely one cannot even get a concealed carry permit in NYC. Which is why BH stated in the thread title "Just one (out of many) reasons you need to know how to fight/defend yourself".

What do you think would happen to the old man in jail???? Do you really think he would be left alone??? Most likely, he would be beaten senseless on a daily basis.

I think 1) he probably wouldn't go to jail and 2) if he did go to jail, he would probably not get messed with one way or the other.


So you would rather get beaten to death then go to jail for defending yourself? uh...ok.

m9a1mike
06-20-2012, 11:07 AM
I think 1) he probably wouldn't go to jail and 2) if he did go to jail, he would probably not get messed with one way or the other.

So you would rather get beaten to death then go to jail for defending yourself? uh...ok.


Well, you think wrong. On both counts. For #1, ask George Zimmerman. And, arguably, he WAS justified.

theKurp
06-20-2012, 11:39 AM
One way to defend yourself is to learn how to diffuse a situation rather than escalate it. All too often, in the name of pride, people refuse to back down even when they're in the wrong. We don't know how the old man reacted, but since he hit another man's car with the bus he was driving the first thing out of his mouth should have been an apology. Sadly, many situations escalate into violence because people think an apology is a sign of weakness.

Karl_Hungus
06-20-2012, 11:43 AM
So you would rather get beaten to death then go to jail for defending yourself? uh...ok.

This.

m9a1mike
06-20-2012, 12:04 PM
So you would rather get beaten to death then go to jail for defending yourself? uh...ok.


This.

No. I choose to learn how to defend myself in all situations with an appropriate level of force.

flairon
06-20-2012, 12:43 PM
No. I choose to learn how to defend myself in all situations with an appropriate level of force.

The 'appropriate level of force' is the one that keeps you from being in a coma sucking food through a straw. If that level of force happens to come in a .45 caliber..it is what it is.

m9a1mike
06-20-2012, 01:17 PM
The 'appropriate level of force' is the one that keeps you from being in a coma sucking food through a straw. If that level of force happens to come in a .45 caliber..it is what it is.



Before you go "Dirty Harry" on an unarmed punk with your 45, you should know the laws in your state pertaining to the use of deadly force.

In this case, how would the bus driver know that a sucker punch would knock him out and his head would hit the pavement, leaving him in a coma? He would not. So, he should know how to defend himself against such an attack. In NYC, you can't come out of a vehicle with a loaded 45 drawn, as you would suggest.

mslman71
06-20-2012, 01:22 PM
Before you go "Dirty Harry" on an unarmed punk with your 45, you should know the laws in your state pertaining to the use of deadly force.

In this case, how would the bus driver know that a sucker punch would knock him out and his head would hit the pavement, leaving him in a coma? He would not. So, he should know how to defend himself against such an attack. In NYC, you can't come out of a vehicle with a loaded 45 drawn, as you would suggest.

Exactly - from the bus driver's point of view there likely was no clear solution. He's a civil servant, he's been a very minor traffic altercation, there would have been no reasonable point at which to show force at that level until it was too late.

flairon
06-20-2012, 01:27 PM
Before you go "Dirty Harry" on an unarmed punk with your 45, you should know the laws in your state pertaining to the use of deadly force.

In this case, how would the bus driver know that a sucker punch would knock him out and his head would hit the pavement, leaving him in a coma? He would not. So, he should know how to defend himself against such an attack. In NYC, you can't come out of a vehicle with a loaded 45 drawn, as you would suggest.

It's not 'going dirty harry'...its defending yourself.

Do you know the best way to make sure you don't get your chest ventilated over a stupid argument like this? Don't bow up on people over stupid arguments like this. People can beat their gums all day about laws this and laws that, and maybe if you keep repeating that to yourself as this guy is beating your skull in it will somehow ease the pain or reduce the damage or possibly shorten your rehab time where you're learning to read again...but I don't really think its going to work that way.

m9a1mike
06-20-2012, 02:35 PM
It's not 'going dirty harry'...its defending yourself.

Do you know the best way to make sure you don't get your chest ventilated over a stupid argument like this? Don't bow up on people over stupid arguments like this. People can beat their gums all day about laws this and laws that, and maybe if you keep repeating that to yourself as this guy is beating your skull in it will somehow ease the pain or reduce the damage or possibly shorten your rehab time where you're learning to read again...but I don't really think its going to work that way.

Well, I really don't know where to start with this reply.

1st -- I seriously doubt the bus driver was in a huff over this. In fact, I'd bet $ that he was probably remorseful for what happened. And no. The bus driver did not defend himself, and a 45 most likely would not have helped him.

2nd -- I don't think you realize I'm arguing with you to HELP you. You have not idea of what constitutes use of deadly force, yet you believe that a 45 cal handgun would have helped this NYC school bus driver who was probably sucker punched ?? I hope for your sake and your family's that you don't own one.

Karl_Hungus
06-20-2012, 03:04 PM
Before you go "Dirty Harry" on an unarmed punk with your 45, you should know the laws in your state pertaining to the use of deadly force.

In this case, how would the bus driver know that a sucker punch would knock him out and his head would hit the pavement, leaving him in a coma? He would not. So, he should know how to defend himself against such an attack. In NYC, you can't come out of a vehicle with a loaded 45 drawn, as you would suggest.

Unfortunately, your logic also applies to other means of defense, whether that be a gun or fisticuffs. The issue isn't gun vs. Fighting, but rather, it is about recognizing and being prepared for a dangerous situation. He obviously didn't recognize the situation as dangerous and so he was caught off gaurd. Even if he knew some self-defense, it probably would not have done him much good if he were punched out of the blue. He was out after the first punch.

If, on the other hand, he recognized the situation as dangerous and treated it accordingly, I suspect he'd fare much better against a much younger violent ex-con if he was carrying.

bodyhard
06-20-2012, 03:06 PM
Even if he knew some self-defense, it probably would not have done him much good

You have no idea what self defense is do you?

Karl_Hungus
06-20-2012, 03:30 PM
You have no idea what self defense is do you?

Yup, but you have to recognize the situation for what it is if you are going to defend yourself against it. He was caught off-gaurd, and was out before he had the opportunity to react.

MrNismo
06-20-2012, 04:07 PM
Yup, but you have to recognize the situation for what it is if you are going to defend yourself against it. He was caught off-gaurd, and was out before he had the opportunity to react.
That's what I was saying above. Self-Defense isn't just knowing how to fight. It's recognizing what's going on around you and avoiding bad situations if you aren't in a position to win the fight or simply don't want to fight. Letting a pissed off guy twice your size and half your age into your personal space is a bad idea if you're not ready to do business. Bus driver should have been backing up with the quickness since he was obviously not prepared to fight.

Karl_Hungus
06-20-2012, 04:39 PM
That's what I was saying above. Self-Defense isn't just knowing how to fight. It's recognizing what's going on around you and avoiding bad situations if you aren't in a position to win the fight or simply don't want to fight. Letting a pissed off guy twice your size and half your age into your personal space is a bad idea if you're not ready to do business. Bus driver should have been backing up with the quickness since he was obviously not prepared to fight.

Yeah .... I would agree with this. Sucks that the guy is on his deathbed from this. Hope the thug gets life.

powernpain
06-20-2012, 04:51 PM
It seemed the other guy was going to lose it regardless. In this instance you do have to be ready. But if you really want to stay away from an altercation there is quite abit one can do to diffusive the situation. Faced one myself about 5 weeks ago.

bodyhard
06-20-2012, 05:06 PM
Yup, but you have to recognize the situation for what it is if you are going to defend yourself against it. He was caught off-gaurd, and was out before he had the opportunity to react.

The thing about self defense is that it comes in many different forms and one of them is, knowing when to assess a situation before it occurs.

m9a1mike
06-20-2012, 05:20 PM
Yup, but you have to recognize the situation for what it is if you are going to defend yourself against it. He was caught off-gaurd, and was out before he had the opportunity to react.

He was caught off-guard because he didn't know what he was doing.

If you are going to get out of your car, or bus, when involved in a traffic accident or whatever, you have to ready to defend yourself. No matter who you are. If you don't know what you are doing, don't get out of your vehicle and call 911.

Oceanside
06-20-2012, 05:22 PM
He was caught off-guard because he didn't know what he was doing.

If you are going to get out of your car, or bus, when involved in a traffic accident or whatever, you have to ready to defend yourself. No matter who you are. If you don't know what you are doing, don't get out of your vehicle and call 911.

he was at work..

I'm guessing he was going to get out and give the guy info on who to call to get his car fixed..

mtpockets
06-20-2012, 05:31 PM
he was at work..

I'm guessing he was going to get out and give the guy info on who to call to get his car fixed..


Exactly, it was an accident, a minor one at that, a clipped mirror.

m9a1mike
06-20-2012, 05:31 PM
he was at work..

I'm guessing he was going to get out and give the guy info on who to call to get his car fixed..

In this case, you're probably right. Unfortunately for him, he probably didn't have much of a choice. But still, it goes to what BH said from the beginning... just another reason to know self defense.

flairon
06-20-2012, 05:35 PM
Well, I really don't know where to start with this reply.

1st -- I seriously doubt the bus driver was in a huff over this. In fact, I'd bet $ that he was probably remorseful for what happened. And no. The bus driver did not defend himself, and a 45 most likely would not have helped him.

2nd -- I don't think you realize I'm arguing with you to HELP you. You have not idea of what constitutes use of deadly force, yet you believe that a 45 cal handgun would have helped this NYC school bus driver who was probably sucker punched ?? I hope for your sake and your family's that you don't own one.

Thanks for your concern, we'll see who needs help when the next mugger holds you up or you walk into your house in the middle of a B&E with the family on your way back from dinner
By the look of the video he wasn't in a huff about it. But whether or not the guy that needed to defend himself was in a huff is irrelevant..its whether or not the noneck in his face was in a huff.

And yeah...I know what constitutes the use of deadly force. Do you? You apparently don't think there was a reason for the use of deadly force...and yet where is that old man at right now?

Part of this was the old mans fault, he was all up on this guy and didn't know how to handle the problem. a couple lengths distance and a sidearm would probably have him back with his family right now instead of them deciding which day they're going to pull the plug on him.

so-tex
06-20-2012, 05:42 PM
The thing about self defense is that it comes in many different forms and one of them is, knowing when to assess a situation before it occurs.I agree.


he was at work..

I'm guessing he was going to get out and give the guy info on who to call to get his car fixed..This is what I'm thinking.

V-240
06-20-2012, 05:46 PM
The thing about self defense is that it comes in many different forms and one of them is, knowing when to assess a situation before it occurs.

THIS! I took some Krav Maga a while back because I often work alone late at night and am out on the roads. One of the essential elements they stress is being able to assess things FAST before you are in over your head. You need to be able to function from a poor state of readiness, and to move from a passive to aggressive state immediately in order to fight back and survive. At the very least, if nothing else you need to be able to run like hell, away from the danger.

Around here, especially at night, bus drivers are instructed to never exit the vehicle unless it's on fire or something, and to summon help. Dunno if that's the best solution because it takes time you might not have. So knowing what to do, or more importantly what NOT to do, could make a life or death difference.

This poor bastid is 65 and about to retire. That's f'cked up.

m9a1mike
06-20-2012, 06:44 PM
Thanks for your concern, we'll see who needs help when the next mugger holds you up or you walk into your house in the middle of a B&E with the family on your way back from dinner

And yeah...I know what constitutes the use of deadly force. Do you? You apparently don't think there was a reason for the use of deadly force...and yet where is that old man at right now?

a couple lengths distance and a sidearm would probably have him back with his family right now instead of them deciding which day they're going to pull the plug on him.

C'mon man.. Who's talking about mugging and burglary?? I'm not. Every point I've made is based on this situation. In hindsight, a case for deadly force could be made but only since the bus driver ended up dead. And that was most likely from the fall, not the punch(es). Bottom line, the driver should have kept his distance or been able to defend himself.

BTW -- I doubt a school bus driver in any state can carry a loaded weapon.

so-tex
06-20-2012, 06:59 PM
BTW -- I doubt a school bus driver in any state can carry a loaded weapon.True Story. Back in the day, when I was a kid, our bus driver carried a 30-30 rifle and a 12 guage shotgun. I remember twice he ran over rattlesnakes on the way to school. He would get out with the shotgun to make sure the snake was dead, and then cut off the rattlers.

cowboybiker
06-20-2012, 07:04 PM
True Story. Back in the day, when I was a kid, our bus driver carried a 30-30 rifle and a 12 guage shotgun. I remember twice he ran over rattlesnakes on the way to school. He would get out with the shotgun to make sure the snake was dead, and then cut off the rattlers.That was so cool that you got to ride the stage coach to school.

so-tex
06-20-2012, 07:13 PM
That was so cool that you got to ride the stage coach to school.Lol, I am old, but not that old.

pvsampson
06-20-2012, 07:27 PM
Someone mentioned Krav Maga.When I was a lad,it was called street fighting.Take the aggressor down as quickly as possible and ensure they are no more threat.In other words,make sure they stay down.

I have sympathy for the bus driver.It is unfortunate indeed that he was not able to recognize the danger he was in or able to take action to avoid said danger.

Maybe the transit companies need to train their staff to deal with these situations better.

cowboybiker
06-20-2012, 07:28 PM
lol, i am old, but not that old.:D

asdf

V-240
06-20-2012, 08:35 PM
Someone mentioned Krav Maga.When I was a lad,it was called street fighting.Take the aggressor down as quickly as possible and ensure they are no more threat.In other words,make sure they stay down.

Yes. The one thing I came away with from KM was to assess and neutralize FAST if you can, then run like hell. If you can't neutralize, then you better run like hell so the aggressor can't keep up or won't want to. In the more advanced training, they teach disarming techniques. I had a lot of trouble with that and hope I never have to see if I can do it real-world, lol.


I have sympathy for the bus driver.It is unfortunate indeed that he was not able to recognize the danger he was in or able to take action to avoid said danger.

Maybe the transit companies need to train their staff to deal with these situations better.

Unfortunately. :(

JRT6
06-20-2012, 09:49 PM
looks more like a reason you need a cwp and a good pistol

Word. 99% of the 65 years olds out there just don't stand a good chance against 18 year old hardened thugs. My comment is in general and not specific to the situation in this thread

bodyhard
06-21-2012, 07:31 AM
Word. 99% of the 65 years olds out there just don't stand a good chance against 18 year old hardened thugs. My comment is in general and not specific to the situation in this thread

The problem with this is, most 65 year old, more than likely will get the gun taken away from them and killed with their own gun.

I don't care if anyone wants to carry, sh!t in the BX people carry guns (illegally) all the f'cking time. But innocent people get killed by stray bullets more than you can count on a daily basis in NY.

If this old man would have knew how to defend himself, more than likely he would not be in the situation he is in now.

My father got robbed at the age of 75, in all his life in the hood he never got robbed because of his street cred, but 4 guys who had no idea who my father was robbed him. They beat the crap out of my pops, but since he knew how to defend himself, he covered, pushed, covered, rolled and just got out of the situation badly bruised. His ego was hurt more than anything else.

My father always said God works in mysterious ways as my father always carried a 007 knife, always and that day my moms told him to please leave it at home. If my Father had the knife I am sure he would have killed one or more of them and God forbid he could have been killed himself.

Brackneyc
06-21-2012, 07:44 AM
I guess the bus driver would have been better off just driving away. No wonder people don't leave notes or stop when they hit another car.

trymarine
06-21-2012, 08:00 AM
^^ This. But if I did live there, I'd prefer a gun rather than duking it out with a bunch of street thugs.

9KwMK78idpA "So discombobulating" eh! confusing not good enough.The second time i've heard this ridiculous word used,
the first time was watching the hilarious Edmund Blackadder trying to get one over on Dr Johnson.

mslman71
06-21-2012, 08:32 AM
The problem with this is, most 65 year old...

Yep. I think that is spot on.

On spread.

Karl_Hungus
06-21-2012, 09:25 AM
The problem with this is, most 65 year old, more than likely will get the gun taken away from them and killed with their own gun.


That is why, whether that be self-defense, or carrying a gun, you should have some type of training. A 65-year old who knows how to use a gun, and knows when to use it will not have this problem. Preparedness is key either way.

Brackneyc
06-21-2012, 10:26 AM
That is why, whether that be self-defense, or carrying a gun, you should have some type of training. A 65-year old who knows how to use a gun, and knows when to use it will not have this problem. Preparedness is key either way.


Given the situation in the OP, anyone dying as a result of a squabble over a fender bender is just dumb as fck. This sad story goes way way beyond a matter of self-defense, imo.

Guinea-pig
06-21-2012, 11:31 AM
Just a sad situation all the way around best line of defence avoid a confrontation when possible.

bodyhard
06-21-2012, 04:07 PM
Given the situation in the OP, anyone dying as a result of a squabble over a fender bender is just dumb as fck. This sad story goes way way beyond a matter of self-defense, imo.

Sh!t people get killed in the Bronx for stepping on someone sneakers, that's just the way it is.

EB68
06-21-2012, 04:57 PM
The bigger issue with concealed weapon permits is here where I live and lots of people carry concealed weapons, you don't have thugs running around punching old people for fear of being shot. In NYC where everyone knows that old people can't carry a weapon there are thugs running around willing to jump on people they feel are unable to defend themselves. I have carried a concealed weapon for most of my adult life and haven't had the need to use it, but if the need were to arise I would. If you look at statistics almost every state with concealed carry permits have way less violent crimes than states without them. In my opinion all those who are against people having the right to carry a weapon and defend themselves should put signs in their yards stating "there are no weapons here, we depend on the police for protection".

Brackneyc
06-21-2012, 06:52 PM
Sh!t people get killed in the Bronx for stepping on someone sneakers, that's just the way it is.


And that is even a dumber reason to kill, or be killed.

Oddly enough, New Yorkers (in NYC anyway) will let their mayor tell them how large a soda they can buy, and that is no biggie, but step on their shoes, and they'll fckin' kill you.

Seems about right.

JRT6
06-21-2012, 10:12 PM
For every arguement counting using a gun for self defense in a deadly force situation I can counter but I can sum it up by saying that the stupid **** some people do with guns dosen't even begin to justify taking my right to self defense and the right to use tools to that end.

Cars don't cause accidents and spoons don't make people fat.

bodyhard
06-21-2012, 10:16 PM
And that is even a dumber reason to kill, or be killed.

Oddly enough, New Yorkers (in NYC anyway) will let their mayor tell them how large a soda they can buy, and that is no biggie, but step on their shoes, and they'll fckin' kill you.

Seems about right.

You are mistaking people who give a sh!t with people who don't....