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stezus
06-06-2012, 09:28 PM
Basically I want to believe there's more to a material existence, but not without reason. I won't accept anything on the basis of simply tradition or religion that lacks a sound and rational basis.

Examples of ways you can support the idea:

Near death experiences: There's a scientific peer-reviewed journal devoted to near death experiences: IANDS. I haven't seen any data myself though.

Reincarnation: Ian Stevenson is a reincarnation researcher who wrote books on the subject using the scientific method. Again haven't read. Maybe someone has?

Remote viewing?

Philosophy of mind: can you reject materialism and support dualism or idealism? This would imply mind is separate from matter and that there's more to life than meets the eye.

BenZowman
06-06-2012, 09:45 PM
http://images.buddytv.com/btv_2_800038793_1_590_-1_0_/best--supernatural--.jpg

alanking
06-06-2012, 09:52 PM
One cannot be convinced of the "supernatural" for two reasons:#1 there is no scientific evidence to suggest anything other then the natural.#2 if science finds a way to confirm the existence of the "supernatural" it no longer classifies as "supernatural" as it is now within our understanding.

Ashton117
06-06-2012, 09:56 PM
I don't believe in the supernatural either. Bunch of broscience

stezus
06-06-2012, 10:00 PM
One cannot be convinced of the "supernatural" for two reasons:#1 there is no scientific evidence to suggest anything other then the natural.

From what I've read about Stevenson's book on reincarnation, there is indeed many things that suggest something other than the natural. There are all kinds of unexplained things going on other than the natural.


#2 if science finds a way to confirm the existence of the "supernatural" it no longer classifies as "supernatural" as it is now within our understanding.

Redundant

tecom
06-06-2012, 10:03 PM
asian mutant can set random stuff on fire with jedi mind tricks

alanking
06-06-2012, 10:07 PM
From what I've read about Stevenson's book on reincarnation, there is indeed many things that suggest something other than the natural. There are all kinds of unexplained things going on other than the natural.

Yes but just as there many things that suggest alien abduction there is no evidence.


Redundant

This quote here is why that is there "There are all kinds of unexplained things going on other than the natural."

Caesar735
06-06-2012, 11:09 PM
just one example, but when you see him you'll know of their existence
they are darker than black, they can interact with real objects, and they talk to you and can be seen by others

hopefully you dont have an encounter with a shadow person, or more specifically the one they call 'hat man' op


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Shadowman-3.jpg

A-GAME
06-06-2012, 11:41 PM
Basically I want to believe there's more to a material existence


This ^^^^ is your first problem. Be curious, investigate but don't begin with the mindset that you want to believe in something. In regards to the rest of your post, I feel it necessary to point out that all the things you speak of are part of non-dualistic traditions. They often explain things using dualistic descriptions which I feel is detrimental to those truly wishing to understand them. Reincarnation for example implies two, however the traditions that teach reincarnation are entirely non-dualistic. Any investigation into these matters is merely the mind/ego trying to play in the field of consciousness. Complete disregard for these things and all other dualities is the only way to find peace. Belief or non belief in dualistic concepts will keep you bound and ignorant regardless of your motives. If you truly wish to gain knowledge, go beyond all dualities including belief and non belief.

stezus
06-06-2012, 11:42 PM
This quote here is why that is there "There are all kinds of unexplained things going on other than the natural."

this sentence is invalid

MiKey4
06-06-2012, 11:54 PM
OP can you define the difference between natural and supernatural?

Meatros
06-07-2012, 05:49 AM
just one example, but when you see him you'll know of their existence
they are darker than black, they can interact with real objects, and they talk to you and can be seen by others

hopefully you dont have an encounter with a shadow person, or more specifically the one they call 'hat man' op


I love stories of shadow people and black eyed kids. I don't believe in them, but they are entertaining.

Have you read these two:

Ted's Caving Page (http://www.angelfire.com/trek/caver/) (confirmed fake, based off of a prior short story)
Kid on a boat ramp (http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=45271) (black eyed kid)

Sami76
06-07-2012, 06:20 AM
Near death experiences: There's a scientific peer-reviewed journal devoted to near death experiences: IANDS. I haven't seen any data myself

As far as NDEs go, I thought it was pretty clear that these hallucinations are caused by lack of oxygen.

x-trainer ben
06-07-2012, 08:26 AM
Basically I want to believe there's more to a material existence, but not without reason. I won't accept anything on the basis of simply tradition or religion that lacks a sound and rational basis.

Examples of ways you can support the idea:

Near death experiences: There's a scientific peer-reviewed journal devoted to near death experiences: IANDS. I haven't seen any data myself though.

Reincarnation: Ian Stevenson is a reincarnation researcher who wrote books on the subject using the scientific method. Again haven't read. Maybe someone has?

Remote viewing?

Philosophy of mind: can you reject materialism and support dualism or idealism? This would imply mind is separate from matter and that there's more to life than meets the eye.

Just look for "coast to coast am" and listen

Caesar735
06-07-2012, 08:33 AM
I love stories of shadow people and black eyed kids. I don't believe in them, but they are entertaining.

Have you read these two:

Ted's Caving Page (http://www.angelfire.com/trek/caver/) (confirmed fake, based off of a prior short story)
Kid on a boat ramp (http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=45271) (black eyed kid)

yeah i read the caving one its pretty good but fake

read some here
http://www.shadowpeople.org/

even if these actual things are fake, i believe people think they saw them and thats probably pretty scary



I moved into my husband’s house after we got married and I noticed that I had 5 ghosts living with me. A little boy who plays with my sons toys, an old woman who watches TV with me, a cat in my kitchen, young woman who lingers by the door, and a large black dog on my porch. I was fine with these as they did not interfere with my going ons in the house. The cat keeps me company when i cook, the dog when i garden, and the old lady when I watch TV. The little boy and the young woman stick to themselves but sometimes they stay in a room with me.

After about six months I was reading a book and something caught my eye, I thought it was the little boy or the old woman walking in the hallway so I turned my head to acknowledge them and to my surprise and fear it was a large man, about six foot tall, standing in my hallway. He leaned on the doorway and stood there staring at me. He was solid black with red eyes. I was very unnerved and pretended to ignore him because I did not get a docile feeling from him at all. He stood there for about a half hour, never moving, just staring. I was not going to get up until he went away. Finally he turned and walked off into my sons room. Maternal instincts took over and i ran in there but nothing was in there. A few days later my son started having horrible nightmares, waking up screaming. To this day he will not sleep in his room without his dog in there with him.

During Christmas I was having some awful dreams and I woke up terrified. I sat straight up in bed and He was standing at the edge of my bed, his eyes were brighter red this time. I sat there staring at him, I was hoping he wasn't real until he started to move, I hunched down and I tried to sleep but I couldn't because he would not leave.

The next night it was the same except he was standing on my side of the bed, i tried to wake my husband up (who sleeps light) but he would not waken. I spent another terrified night with this man staring at me.

By the third night I did not want to sleep, but I had to get up early. I had the same nightmares and woke up. This time the man was sitting on the edge of my bed and he leaned down so his face was 2 inches from mine, all i could see was the bright red eyes and his body blocking out the light from the living-room. I was so scared I had a hard time breathing, he leaned even closer and told me " If you tell him, I will bite out your tongue. If you yell, I will bite out your tongue." I kept my mouth shut, I have never had a ghost threaten me like that before. I leaned back, and squeezed my eyes shut. After awhile I felt his presence leave my room.

Now he stand in my hallway, lounging by my bedroom door and he lingers all night long. I have to walk right next to him to get into my bedroom. Every once in awhile I wake up and he is standing next to or at the end of my bed. I go back to sleep, hoping that this will be the last night i see him.

lasher
06-07-2012, 08:42 AM
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/284/250/db5.jpg

IronRooster2
06-07-2012, 09:48 AM
http://images.buddytv.com/btv_2_800038793_1_590_-1_0_/best--supernatural--.jpg

It's a good thing he slaughtered the pig himself, so they don't have to worry about tainted meat.

Misha's a good friend. <3

... though he could have just as easily made them a hamburger or a steak. He's kind of a jerk now that I think about it >:|

stezus
06-07-2012, 11:08 AM
OP can you define the difference between natural and supernatural?

google it motha trucka


As far as NDEs go, I thought it was pretty clear that these hallucinations are caused by lack of oxygen.

well that's not the case. that's the lazy man's explanation. evident by a situation being identified in detail by the NDE'er that couldn't have otherwise been known


Just look for "coast to coast am" and listen

been listenin for 6 years

stezus
06-20-2012, 02:12 PM
This ^^^^ is your first problem. Be curious, investigate but don't begin with the mindset that you want to believe in something. In regards to the rest of your post, I feel it necessary to point out that all the things you speak of are part of non-dualistic traditions. They often explain things using dualistic descriptions which I feel is detrimental to those truly wishing to understand them. Reincarnation for example implies two, however the traditions that teach reincarnation are entirely non-dualistic. Any investigation into these matters is merely the mind/ego trying to play in the field of consciousness. Complete disregard for these things and all other dualities is the only way to find peace. Belief or non belief in dualistic concepts will keep you bound and ignorant regardless of your motives. If you truly wish to gain knowledge, go beyond all dualities including belief and non belief.

For as much as you wrote, it seems you really said nothing.

cman1787
06-20-2012, 03:36 PM
sit down and meditate

the process you go through for sleep, you have to go through consciously

lucious
06-20-2012, 03:49 PM
you may be interested in a middle ground. try ontological pluralism or david chalmers/thomas nagel theories on consciousness

KRANE
06-20-2012, 03:57 PM
Basically I want to believe there's more to a material existence, but not without reason.

Hocus Pocus. Convinced now?
I won't accept anything on the basis of simply tradition or religion that lacks a sound and rational basis. You say that like you're doing us a favor? If you don't believe now, you will in time. We can wait.

stezus
06-20-2012, 04:13 PM
you may be interested in a middle ground. try ontological pluralism or david chalmers/thomas nagel theories on consciousness

I'll give it a read


Hocus Pocus. Convinced now?You say that like you're doing us a favor? If you don't believe now, you will in time. We can wait.

You could try making sense

KRANE
06-20-2012, 04:18 PM
You could try making senseI know when something is an exercise in futility. What you need to be convinced needs the attention of someone greater than I. And fortunately for you, you won't have been the first.

Bahai.Lifter
06-20-2012, 04:20 PM
Basically I want to believe there's more to a material existence, but not without reason. I won't accept anything on the basis of simply tradition or religion that lacks a sound and rational basis.

Think of the mind. The mind is immaterial. It is immaterial, because it is the power of the human spirit. If there were no spirit, there would be no mind. Animals, in contrast, cannot be philosophical, cannot engage in scientific research, can't progress, are completely deprived of the rational soul. Whereas God gave the gift of mind to man, which makes man able to conquer and understand nature, instead of being a slave of nature (as animals are). Man is one of the weakest creatures physically, but the mind and ability to investigate reality and the creation causes his superiority to the other created things. No science journal will ever physically demonstrate a tangible mind since it isn't physical; so we don't have (scientific) proof that we have minds, other than our own subjective experience of them. No one intelligent will reject the mind just because of lack of research showing humans have one, or because it's immaterial. So why reject the soul, of which the mind is a manifestation? Thus, the mind is the power of the spirit. We indeed have an immaterial (spiritual) component to us, therefore we are able to know and love our Creator whereas the animal is trapped and enslaved completely by Nature.

stezus
06-20-2012, 04:24 PM
I know when something is an exercise in futility. What you need to be convinced needs the attention of someone greater than I. And fortunately for you, you won't have been the first.

Are you alluding to the idea that I will be punished for not believing?


Think of the mind. The mind is immaterial. It is immaterial, because it is the power of the human spirit. If there were no spirit, there would be no mind. Animals, in contrast, cannot be philosophical, cannot engage in scientific research, can't progress, are completely deprived of the rational soul. Whereas God gave the gift of mind to man, which makes man able to conquer and understand nature, instead of being a slave of nature (as animals are). Man is one of the weakest creatures physically, but the mind and ability to investigate reality and the creation causes his superiority to the other created things. No science journal will ever physically demonstrate a tangible mind since it isn't physical; so we don't have (scientific) proof that we have minds, other than our own subjective experience of them. No one intelligent will reject the mind just because of lack of research showing humans have one, or because it's immaterial. So why reject the soul, of which the mind is a manifestation? Thus, the mind is the power of the spirit. We indeed have an immaterial (spiritual) component to us, therefore we are able to know and love our Creator whereas the animal is trapped and enslaved completely by Nature.

No offense, but this is riddled with assumptions. The mind being powered by the spirit for example is one such. Most claim the mind is the power of our brains, and I don't see that as an unreasonable claim. If it could be reasoned otherwise I'd be more than happy to listen. I myself am not content with the materialist answer, but I'd need an alternative.

KRANE
06-20-2012, 04:29 PM
Are you alluding to the idea that I will be punished for not believing? If you are, consider yourself lucky. All beliefs have a reward or a penalty, just make sure you choose wisely. And consider Saul of Tarsus.

stezus
06-20-2012, 04:32 PM
If you are, consider yourself lucky. All beliefs have a reward or a penalty, just make sure you choose wisely. And consider Saul of Tarsus.

Why would I be lucky?

KRANE
06-20-2012, 04:39 PM
Why would I be lucky?Like I said, consider Saul of Tarsus. But to make it simple, if you were blind folded and walking to the edge of a cliff, would you rather someone knock you to the ground, or let you walk off the cliff?

Believing doesn't hurt, it only makes you stronger.

stezus
06-20-2012, 04:41 PM
Like I said, consider Saul of Tarsus. But to make it simple, if you were blind folded and walking to the edge of a cliff, would you rather someone knock you to the ground, or let you walk off the cliff?

Believing doesn't hurt, it only makes you stronger.

Save this for another thread. There's nothing about Christianity that convinces me of anything

Bahai.Lifter
06-20-2012, 04:42 PM
No offense, but this is riddled with assumptions. The mind being powered by the spirit for example is one such. Most claim the mind is the power of our brains, and I don't see that as an unreasonable claim. If it could be reasoned otherwise I'd be more than happy to listen. I myself am not content with the materialist answer, but I'd need an alternative.

No offense taken brother, you're a polite person. So, even if we consider the mind is a power of our brains, still the mind cannot be isolated or shown to be tangible unlike the brain itself. What we call a mind is really something non-physical. Sure, you need a working brain for the mind to manifest itself (that's not an argument against a non-physical mind or spirit). If someone's in a coma or dead, how can the mind manifest itself in this world? In fact, the reason why people can have dreams of an event occurring before it actually does, is because when you are asleep your mind (or spirit) can "travel" to a future time (I put travel in quotes because for the non-physical, there is no time or space). So there must be an immaterial (spiritual) component to us if we are able to see future events. If you cut into the brain, you won't find the mind or spirit. So the power of the spirit manifests itself in this life, one of the manifestations being that you can have dreams of future events. Even if we can't "see" something, we can know it exists from the effects. The materialists contend that we are only purely physical animals and nothing more, but when one considers these things he will see that man is more than just material or a mere animal.

Today many people are working hard, enduring many years of schooling and research, just to try to show we are merely animals and nothing more. But should humans be showing their thanks to God by trying to degrade or deny their high stations and gifts He has bestowed upon them? The Bahá'í Scriptures say: "O SON OF SPIRIT! Noble have I created thee, yet thou hast abased thyself. Rise then unto that for which thou wast created."


Here is a book you might find helpful that deals with topics like this:

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/index.html

KRANE
06-20-2012, 04:47 PM
Save this for another thread. There's nothing about Christianity that convinces me of anythingExactly my point. Which is why I'm not trying.

No one can convince you of anything you don't want to believe. Although this is not really a question of belief is it? This is just the result of either stubbornness or stupidity. You have to be one or the other.

jayohthatman
06-20-2012, 04:50 PM
tide goes in, tides goes out..................cant really explain that without supernatural op

stezus
06-20-2012, 04:57 PM
No offense taken brother, you're a polite person. So, even if we consider the mind is a power of our brains, still the mind cannot be isolated or shown to be tangible unlike the brain itself. What we call a mind is really something non-physical. Sure, you need a working brain for the mind to manifest itself (that's not an argument against a non-physical mind or spirit). If someone's in a coma or dead, how can the mind manifest itself in this world? In fact, the reason why people can have dreams of an event occurring before it actually does, is because when you are asleep your mind (or spirit) can "travel" to a future time (I put travel in quotes because for the non-physical, there is no time or space). So there must be an immaterial (spiritual) component to us if we are able to see future events. If you cut into the brain, you won't find the mind or spirit. So the power of the spirit manifests itself in this life, one of the manifestations being that you can have dreams of future events. Even if we can't "see" something, we can know it exists from the effects. The materialists contend that we are only purely physical animals and nothing more, but when one considers these things he will see that man is more than just material or a mere animal.

Today many people are working hard, enduring many years of schooling and research, just to try to show we are merely animals and nothing more. But should humans be showing their thanks to God by trying to degrade or deny their high stations and gifts He has bestowed upon them? The Bahá'í Scriptures say: "O SON OF SPIRIT! Noble have I created thee, yet thou hast abased thyself. Rise then unto that for which thou wast created."


Here is a book you might find helpful that deals with topics like this:

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/index.html

Hmm, I'll give it a read.. but I'm highly skeptical of any scripture that considers itself the revealed word of god through some messenger (not sure if that's what this is though yet). I'm skeptical of that for a few reasons


Exactly my point. Which is why I'm not trying.

No one can convince you of anything you don't want to believe. Although this is not really a question of belief is it? This is just the result of either stubbornness or stupidity. You have to be one or the other.

How am I being stubborn or stupid? If there's good support for something I'll entertain the thought


tide goes in, tides goes out..................cant really explain that without supernatural op

lol'ed

Bahai.Lifter
06-20-2012, 07:29 PM
Hmm, I'll give it a read.. but I'm highly skeptical of any scripture that considers itself the revealed word of god through some messenger (not sure if that's what this is though yet). I'm skeptical of that for a few reasons

It's very natural to be skeptical brother, you seem to be on the right path especially since you are open and want to be convinced. All sincere people will surely be guided by God.

There are prayers which can be said any time of the day for spiritual guidance if you're interested: http://www.bahaiprayers.org/

Here is some general information on the Bahá'í Faith: http://info.bahai.org/

BTW here's an example of a person who was also very skeptical about religion at first, and tried to study the Bahá'í Scriptures to try to find the flaws but says he couldn't find any (he was previously an atheist, now a Bahá'í):

BXBUIDtJtOc

So you're doing a good thing IMHO by questioning and investigating, and with your sincere investigation God willing you'll arrive at a new discovery or satisfactory answer to your questions.

In terms of search after truth, here is a passage I wanted to share with you:



"O My brother! When a true seeker determineth to take the step of search in the path leading unto the knowledge of the Ancient of Days, he must, before all else, cleanse his heart, which is the seat of the revelation of the inner mysteries of God, from the obscuring dust of all acquired knowledge, and the allusions of the embodiments of satanic fancy. He must purge his breast, which is the sanctuary of the abiding love of the Beloved, of every defilement, and sanctify his soul from all that pertaineth to water and clay, from all shadowy and ephemeral attachments. He must so cleanse his heart that no remnant of either love or hate may linger therein, lest that love blindly incline him to error, or that hate repel him away from the truth. Even as thou dost witness in this Day how most of the people, because of such love and hate, are bereft of the immortal Face, have strayed far from the Embodiments of the Divine mysteries, and, shepherdless, are roaming through the wilderness of oblivion and error. . . .

Passage continues here: http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-125.html


Here is a short, mystical and poetic book which I think you'd probably like; its about the spiritual stages a soul goes through in its investigation or journey toward God:

The Seven Valleys And the Four Valleys - http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/SVFV/


Not to overwhelm you with links, but whichever you're interested in more you can investigate first. Good luck with your spiritual investigation! :)