PDA

View Full Version : Low carb could hurt your gains



pcproffy
05-15-2012, 05:27 PM
I went to a sports nutrition seminar presented by a Phd Nutritionist that worked for the Garmin pro cycling team, so most of you can hit the back button now. He's also does sports nutrition research with all kinds of athletes at a university hospital. Here are some of the interesting things I took away from it:

1. Over-training often results from a carb deficit while exercising.

2. He found about 1/2 of male and 1/4 of female athletes were suffering from low glycogen stores. (I'm guessing the typical BBer is worse)

3. Over-training results in excessive muscle damage that takes 7-8 days to recover. It makes muscle cells "leaky" which slows their ability to take in nutrients to grow or repair. It hinders carb intake to the muscle which reinforces the over-training cycle.

Why?
Roughly 5% of our energy during exercise comes from burning amino acids. However, this percentage can shoot up in a person who is carb deprived. As exercise intensity increases, and lactate builds-up, fat metabolism grinds to a halt. Since the person is already carb depleted, the only fuel left is to break down protein.

Solution?
He suggests CHO intake at 3-4g/kg/day for someone exercises 1 hour/day. Also, supports the idea of adding BCAAs and carbs to your workout drink.

***
Antioxidants:

1. Free-radicals are needed to stimulate growth and repair.
2. Excessive antioxidant supplementation can reduce free-radicals so much that it hinders growth and repair
3. Antioxidant supplementation also reduces endogenous antioxidant production to a very significant degree (50% or worse depending on the antioxidant), which can further hinder the growth and repair process.

Solution?
Take it easy on the animal packs. Meet your nutrition requirements via food to reduce the risk of over-consumption.

ELLSKIES
05-15-2012, 06:37 PM
Great post, thanks. Repped!

AlwaysTryin
05-15-2012, 10:03 PM
2. He found about 1/2 of male and 1/4 of female athletes were suffering from low glycogen stores. (I'm guessing the typical BBer is worse)


doubt that...

mattypoole
05-15-2012, 10:16 PM
I went to a sports nutrition seminar presented by a Phd Nutritionist that worked for the Garmin pro cycling team, so most of you can hit the back button now. He's also does sports nutrition research with all kinds of athletes at a university hospital. Here are some of the interesting things I took away from it:

1. Over-training often results from a carb deficit while exercising.

2. He found about 1/2 of male and 1/4 of female athletes were suffering from low glycogen stores. (I'm guessing the typical BBer is worse)

3. Over-training results in excessive muscle damage that takes 7-8 days to recover. It makes muscle cells "leaky" which slows their ability to take in nutrients to grow or repair. It hinders carb intake to the muscle which reinforces the over-training cycle.

Why?
Roughly 5% of our energy during exercise comes from burning amino acids. However, this percentage can shoot up in a person who is carb deprived. As exercise intensity increases, and lactate builds-up, fat metabolism grinds to a halt. Since the person is already carb depleted, the only fuel left is to break down protein.

Solution?
He suggests CHO intake at 3-4g/kg/day for someone exercises 1 hour/day. Also, supports the idea of adding BCAAs and carbs to your workout drink.

***
Antioxidants:

1. Free-radicals are needed to stimulate growth and repair.
2. Excessive antioxidant supplementation can reduce free-radicals so much that it hinders growth and repair
3. Antioxidant supplementation also reduces endogenous antioxidant production to a very significant degree (50% or worse depending on the antioxidant), which can further hinder the growth and repair process.

Solution?
Take it easy on the animal packs. Meet your nutrition requirements via food to reduce the risk of over-consumption.

Did he get his Phd from a corn flakes box?

BCAAs are of no benefit if you're getting enough protein.

Over training generally = not eating enough. A natural bodybuilder can train the same muscle group around every 48 hours without an issue assuming sufficient caloric/macro nutrient intake and sleep.

pcproffy
05-15-2012, 10:30 PM
The body is going to use BCAAs for energy so having them already in the blood will save muscle catabolism.

mattypoole
05-15-2012, 10:50 PM
The body is going to use BCAAs for energy so having them already in the blood will save muscle catabolism.

Broscience.

If your dietary protein is made up of more than just brotein, then you are consuming meals containing protein that will take a number of hours to break down (i.e animal and dairy sources in their whole, unrefined form) meaning you will already have aminos available in the bloodstream.

dcbone30
05-15-2012, 11:01 PM
If I took 3-4g carb per kg I'd never get enough fats or protein to meet my goals according to my calculations or I would be eating consistently at a surplus (currently cutting). Is this study directed at certain body types?

mattypoole
05-15-2012, 11:05 PM
If I took 3-4g carb per kg I'd never get enough fats or protein to meet my goals according to my calculations and I would be eating consistently at a surplus. Is this study directed at certain body types?

The information posted OP sounds like complete bollocks and I'd be surprised if he was able to provide links to studies backing up those claims.

Getting your min fat & protein intake is the most important thing, after which point you can just fill out the rest of your calories with carbs.

Remember, there are essential amino acids & essential fatty acids, but there are no essential carbs.

MAGnitude
05-15-2012, 11:10 PM
If I took 3-4g carb per kg I'd never get enough fats or protein to meet my goals according to my calculations or I would be eating consistently at a surplus (currently cutting). Is this study directed at certain body types?

if your an athlete or extremely active carbs are a priority. this is re-iterated by emma-leigh in the stickies.

mattypoole
05-15-2012, 11:28 PM
if your an athlete or extremely active carbs are a priority. this is re-iterated by emma-leigh in the stickies.

Yes, but your average person in this forum won't be in that category.

MAGnitude
05-15-2012, 11:32 PM
Yes, but your average person in this forum won't be in that category.

true :)

pcproffy
05-27-2012, 10:16 AM
The information posted OP sounds like complete bollocks and I'd be surprised if he was able to provide links to studies backing up those claims.

No I don't have the studies, I went to his lecture. I'd chase down the research but I know you don't really care.

http://events.r20.constantcontact.com/register/event?oeidk=a07e5qs0zald5d929be&llr=ybmeildab

http://www.uch.edu/conditions/bones-joints-muscle/sportsmedicine/human-performance-lab/director/

And here is that broscience at work:
http://www.9news.com/news/article/206013/229/Becoming-a-more-efficient-athlete-in-the-lab

tden99
05-27-2012, 11:01 AM
There are quite a few studies on glycogen depletion and it doesn't seem that resistance training depletes all that much to need carbs that high. I know that it is a general trend around 15-25 miles marathon runners tend to become depleted but that is a ridiculous example. I would agree that if your a cyclist you probably will become depleted but most people here lift and do some cardio. What level were these athletes too. my college friends who play baseball and basketball train for 3-4 hours a day in season so of course they will need more carbs.

ilove2run
05-27-2012, 11:12 AM
doubt that...

Agree


I went to a sports nutrition seminar presented by a Phd Nutritionist that worked for the Garmin pro cycling team, so most of you can hit the back button now. He's also does sports nutrition research with all kinds of athletes at a university hospital. Here are some of the interesting things I took away from it:

1. Over-training often results from a carb deficit while exercising.

2. He found about 1/2 of male and 1/4 of female athletes were suffering from low glycogen stores. (I'm guessing the typical BBer is worse)

3. Over-training results in excessive muscle damage that takes 7-8 days to recover. It makes muscle cells "leaky" which slows their ability to take in nutrients to grow or repair. It hinders carb intake to the muscle which reinforces the over-training cycle.

Why?
Roughly 5% of our energy during exercise comes from burning amino acids. However, this percentage can shoot up in a person who is carb deprived. As exercise intensity increases, and lactate builds-up, fat metabolism grinds to a halt. Since the person is already carb depleted, the only fuel left is to break down protein.

Solution?
He suggests CHO intake at 3-4g/kg/day for someone exercises 1 hour/day. Also, supports the idea of adding BCAAs and carbs to your workout drink.

***
Antioxidants:

1. Free-radicals are needed to stimulate growth and repair.
2. Excessive antioxidant supplementation can reduce free-radicals so much that it hinders growth and repair
3. Antioxidant supplementation also reduces endogenous antioxidant production to a very significant degree (50% or worse depending on the antioxidant), which can further hinder the growth and repair process.

Solution?
Take it easy on the animal packs. Meet your nutrition requirements via food to reduce the risk of over-consumption.

First off - Lactate doesn't build up in the muscle cell (well it does, but isn't cause fatigue, it is just mainly one way of indicating fatigue), and isn't related to the muscle fatigue, it is the free Hydrogen ions that are produced during the time that cause the muscle fatigue and hinder performance.

Lactate is easily removed and excreted by the body in well trained athletes (and it applies here because you are directing this towards elite athletes, whom are all capable of this).

Secondly, fat metabolism does not come to halt. Elite athletes become more efficient at burning fat as they become trained, so in saying that we go directly towards stored protein and amino acids for fuel is bull.

Also note; that San Millan is dealing with endurance athletes, not bodybuilders. Trying to cross-reference the effects of how the body physiologically handles an endurance sport compared to a power sport is irreverent at best.

mattypoole
05-28-2012, 06:23 AM
No I don't have the studies, I went to his lecture. I'd chase down the research but I know you don't really care.

http://events.r20.constantcontact.com/register/event?oeidk=a07e5qs0zald5d929be&llr=ybmeildab

http://www.uch.edu/conditions/bones-joints-muscle/sportsmedicine/human-performance-lab/director/

And here is that broscience at work:
http://www.9news.com/news/article/206013/229/Becoming-a-more-efficient-athlete-in-the-lab

You've posted all of this in an article on a bodybuilding forum titled "low carb could hurt your gains" which is patently wrong in the context of this site (you know, being a bodybuilding site and all..).

You've also tried to extrapolate what happens in elite endurance athletes to people in here and apparently can't be bothered to back up what you've said with data from even one study (in other words, making excuses for not backing up something you've asserted in here because you can't).

Yep, OP can safely be ignored by 95% of the people in this forum.

pcproffy
05-29-2012, 10:23 PM
Agree
Lactate is easily removed and excreted by the body in well trained athletes (and it applies here because you are directing this towards elite athletes, whom are all capable of this).

Secondly, fat metabolism does not come to halt. Elite athletes become more efficient at burning fat as they become trained, so in saying that we go directly towards stored protein and amino acids for fuel is bull.


First, I asked him 1v1 how this applies to non-endurance athletes and he stated it's very important. Non-endurance sports can require even more carbs because going anaerobic requires more carbs. While San Millan most prominently works with Garmin cycling he does work with all kinds of athletes. His bio specifically mentioned basketball too.

I'm guessing you know the importance of lactate threshold and everyone hits it sooner or later. Lifting and things like HITT are anaerobic type activities that will produce lactate. BBers are not the type of athlete to have great lactate clearance either. I can find numerous studies that show the relationship between LT and fat metabolism.

Also, since you are into running, San Millan discussed the importance of good hemoglobin levels. There is a huge difference between say 15 and 14, despite they are both clinically normal. Such a difference can mean around a 7% decrease in oxygen capacity. But this is a tricky one since excessive iron can be bad for your heart.

@tden99 -- Thanks for that, plz if you can point to some of those studies.

Anyways, thanks for intelligent discussion.

riaden
05-30-2012, 02:45 AM
The depletion phase in this protocol is defined and tough - a long exercise session one week out, followed by 3-4 days of minimal carbohydrate intake and continued exercise. If anything, the rigid instructions and the challenge add a sense of mystique. It has become part of the endurance athletes folklore. So, it is both surprising and understandable that anyone would ignore the 1980s development of a "modified" carbohydrate loading technique which offers elevated muscle glycogen levels to well-trained athletes without the need for a glycogen stripping phase. But many top athletes still include a depletion.

The surprising part is that an athlete would submit to the unpleasant side effects of depleting if given a choice. Runners like Australian marathoner Steve Moneghetti who have written about the experience of a severe depletion phase describe overwhelming fatigue, irritability, reduced tolerance to anything from people to bugs to injury, and a marked reduction of performance. The body, brain and muscles are being deprived of carbohydrate fuel, and nothing functions well in the short term. For some athletes, carbohydrate restriction means substitution with a high fat and protein intake. However, even if you start that way, after a day or so most athletes will experience loss of appetite as their metabolism shifts to ketone production. Since it is both practically and physiologically difficult just to eat fat and protein, most athletes probably end up adding some carbohydrate by the end of the depletion phase, therefore not depleting properly. Athletes that do follow the protocol hope that by pulling themselves down hard, the next phase of loading will spring them back to new heights.