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TKerby91
03-08-2012, 07:43 AM
Currently cutting. I'm Finding it quite hard to get my total of 2500 cals per day eating clean with a low ratio of carbs. (I know low carbs is preference on a cut and you don't need to its the deficit but its how I do things, I'm just experimenting) for example my Turkey steak is only 180cals, but has about 35-40g of Protein init. Any one got advice on how to fill with low carb option other than protein? I'm only 154 so I don't want to be on like 300g of protein a day.

ven33
03-08-2012, 07:46 AM
Why are you going low carb?

nobrah
03-08-2012, 07:47 AM
Any one got advice on how to fill with low carb option other than protein?

Um...dietary fat? That's the only other option unless you plan to fill your calories with booze. ;) But seriously, I get the impression that you're afraid of dietary fat, so you'd probably benefit from bumping your numbers up on that particular macro.

absphilips
03-08-2012, 07:48 AM
What about healthy fats e.g. natural peanut butter its quite calorie dense

A4min
03-08-2012, 07:49 AM
try including some healthy fats and vegetables in there. I usually minimise carbs after 6 (simply because i workout around 1pm and consume most my carbs in around that time) this way i'll be able to meet my calorie intake later on towards the night.

TKerby91
03-08-2012, 07:50 AM
Why are you going low carb?

heard a few people say low carb can make a difference in their opinion a cut results wise. I love to test things as everyone is different, so it may work in my favor, it may not. Either way I'm still losing BF% as I'm on a deficit

TKerby91
03-08-2012, 07:52 AM
What about healthy fats e.g. natural peanut butter its quite calorie dense

Nice idea, I could consume after workout or something with my lunch, and have less cals for dinner

kdog1189
03-08-2012, 07:53 AM
As mentioned above, dietary fat. In addition, even at 1g fat per lb of bodyweight, you would still be eating ~120g carbs. At the more typical .5g fat per lb of bodyweight, carbs would be in the 270-300 range depending on protein intake.

I suspect that reading the stickies might help you out a lot for calculating macronutrient requirements.

ven33
03-08-2012, 07:53 AM
heard a few people say low carb can make a difference in their opinion a cut results wise. I love to test things as everyone is different, so it may work in my favor, it may not. Either way I'm still losing BF% as I'm on a deficit

Just remember that going low carb can effect gym performance.

To answer your question, fat sources. Most fat sources are low in carbs, and being that you have made no mention to your fat intake my guess is that your diet is deficient in that amount.

TKerby91
03-08-2012, 08:08 AM
Just remember that going low carb can effect gym performance.

To answer your question, fat sources. Most fat sources are low in carbs, and being that you have made no mention to your fat intake my guess is that your diet is deficient in that amount.

I'd say my fat is around 70g per day. Also I have the ethos of its not what you eat, its when you eat it. So I do eat complex carbs like wholemeal bread and rice etc, but its before and post workout so it can be used effectively. But as I sit around the rest of the day I try to limit carbs as I have no need for them.

vitornoob
03-08-2012, 08:15 AM
Currently cutting. I'm Finding it quite hard to get my total of 2500 cals per day eating clean with a low ratio of carbs. (I know low carbs is preference on a cut and you don't need to its the deficit but its how I do things, I'm just experimenting) for example my Turkey steak is only 180cals, but has about 35-40g of Protein init. Any one got advice on how to fill with low carb option other than protein? I'm only 154 so I don't want to be on like 300g of protein a day.

1. Why are you cutting?
2. Do you think you do not need a deficit while low carbing???

TKerby91
03-08-2012, 08:23 AM
1. Why are you cutting?
2. Do you think you do not need a deficit while low carbing???

1. to lose fat
2. No, may have mixed words. I mean't deficit is essential on a cut, and low carbs is only a preference but I'm testing with low carbs to see if it makes a difference.

Sorry for the confusion

ven33
03-08-2012, 08:24 AM
I'd say my fat is around 70g per day. Also I have the ethos of its not what you eat, its when you eat it. So I do eat complex carbs like wholemeal bread and rice etc, but its before and post workout so it can be used effectively. But as I sit around the rest of the day I try to limit carbs as I have no need for them.

You should get over that ethos to be honest. If you're on here enough you would know and understand that the timing of carbs is unimportant in terms of body comp.

TKerby91
03-08-2012, 08:30 AM
You should get over that ethos to be honest. If you're on here enough you would know and understand that the timing of carbs is unimportant in terms of body comp.

Other people say otherwise. Experimenting is fine its a no lose situation. I'm still in a deficit, still losing fat and have enough energy, and I'm gaining strength atm (may only be a little bit but on a cut that's good). Maybe you should stop accepting everything and try new things.

ven33
03-08-2012, 08:55 AM
Other people say otherwise. Experimenting is fine its a no lose situation. I'm still in a deficit, still losing fat and have enough energy, and I'm gaining strength atm (may only be a little bit but on a cut that's good). Maybe you should stop accepting everything and try new things.

Maybe I have been doing this longer than you have?

Maybe I listen to research, science, and other things of that nature?

When you don't look like a skeleton please come back and talk to me. Taunting a knowledgeable and frequent poster is not a smart thing to do.

Do me a favor and read this: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=123915821

BBqChicken1
03-08-2012, 09:13 AM
Other people say otherwise.

Yes, so? People tell me to **** myself, do I do it?

Charles Poliquin tells me to take 80 pills during a workout. A guy from GNC tells me to take 349234 supplements. A guy from my gym tells me to do high reps to tone. A supplement ad tells me their powdered food gives me 23429 muscle gains.


Guess what, you don't listen to ****ing clueless idiots. You think something is false, ask them to prove it. You don't go around blindly believing one guy because he stopped eating carbs at night and lost more weight, but didn't tell you he ate less calories.


Here's your carbs at night devil:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21475137

vitornoob
03-08-2012, 09:21 AM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19246357

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0804748#t=article

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=137150153

TKerby91
03-08-2012, 10:03 AM
Yes, so? People tell me to **** myself, do I do it?

Charles Poliquin tells me to take 80 pills during a workout. A guy from GNC tells me to take 349234 supplements. A guy from my gym tells me to do high reps to tone. A supplement ad tells me their powdered food gives me 23429 muscle gains.


Guess what, you don't listen to ****ing clueless idiots. You think something is false, ask them to prove it. You don't go around blindly believing one guy because he stopped eating carbs at night and lost more weight, but didn't tell you he ate less calories.


Here's your carbs at night devil:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21475137

I'm not basing my argument from some random hillbilly at the gym, and that's an extreme exaggeration, take things with a pinch of salt.

TKerby91
03-08-2012, 10:06 AM
Maybe I have been doing this longer than you have?

Maybe I listen to research, science, and other things of that nature?

When you don't look like a skeleton please come back and talk to me. Taunting a knowledgeable and frequent poster is not a smart thing to do.

Do me a favor and read this: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=123915821

I'm not saying what your doing is wrong, the information came from someone who has 10+years more experience than you, and who is one of the most successful fitness personalities, and before you say it was for an advert or to promote a product it wasn't.

I chose to get ripped and have a low body fat, so you can't criticize me because I'm not some jacked up hillbilly. I prefer this look, and my end goal isn't to be 220lb dumpling at 5'9. Also I said I was experimenting dumbass, I wasn't saying he or I am right about low carb on a cut.

ven33
03-08-2012, 10:12 AM
I'm not saying what your doing is wrong, the information came from someone who has 10+years more experience than you, and who is one of the most successful fitness personalities, and before you say it was for an advert or to promote a product it wasn't.

I chose to get ripped and have a low body fat, so you can't criticize me because I'm not some jacked up hillbilly. I prefer this look, and my end goal isn't to be 220lb dumpling at 5'9. Also I said I was experimenting dumbass, I wasn't saying he or I am right about low carb on a cut.

Being a fitness personality does not mean you are a nutritionalist. Stop posting.

Dexter3000
03-08-2012, 10:13 AM
The guy said from the first post it's just what he prefers at this moment and he's experimenting to see what kind of results it gets him. No need to attack him like that with posts about how knowledgeable you are and how 'skinny' he is. IMO

TKerby91
03-08-2012, 10:15 AM
The guy said from the first post it's just what he prefers at this moment and he's experimenting to see what kind of results it gets him. No need to attack him like that with posts about how knowledgeable you are and how 'skinny' he is. IMO

a breeze of sanity enters.

BBqChicken1
03-08-2012, 10:15 AM
A famous person saying crap<experiments where many people ate carbs at night and everything was controlled in the experiment and the results say carbs at night don't matter


anecdotal evidence<scientific evidence

Dexter3000
03-08-2012, 10:26 AM
A famous person saying crap<experiments where many people ate carbs at night and everything was controlled in the experiment and the results say carbs at night don't matter


anecdotal evidence<scientific evidence

Unless it's personal anecdotal evidence. There seems to be a general lack of critique on the concept of 'studies' around here, you'd be surprised how easily they deviate from real life situations and personal circumstances. Although it's design taks this into account when results are concluded, studies are not real life.

Of course science is very valuable in these discussions but don't underestimate it's ability to be misinterpreted by the researcher, publisher and interpreter on an internet forum.

ven33
03-08-2012, 10:36 AM
a breeze of sanity enters.

So who is your "source"?

Chronys
03-08-2012, 10:46 AM
Being a fitness personality does not mean you are a nutritionalist. Stop posting.
This. IFBB pro's often have ****ty ROM when you see their training vids. Because it works for them doesn't mean it's good for you, because for 99.9% of the people who lift, that is just inferior to a full ROM.

Dexter3000
03-08-2012, 11:22 AM
This. IFBB pro's often have ****ty ROM when you see their training vids. Because it works for them doesn't mean it's good for you, because for 99.9% of the people who lift, that is just inferior to a full ROM.

Maybe that's because Ronnie can't be bothered with perfect form when he's BB rowing 500+ lbs ;)

Chronys
03-08-2012, 11:25 AM
Maybe that's because Ronnie can't be bothered with perfect form when he's BB rowing 500+ lbs ;)I'm not saying it doesn't work for them, I'm saying that just because a fitness personality/IFBB pro does or says something, doesn't mean you should mindlessly copy it, because it doesn't have to actually be better for virtually everyone else.

MikeK46
03-08-2012, 12:33 PM
What about healthy fats e.g. natural peanut butter its quite calorie dense


try including some healthy fats and vegetables in there.

What's a "healthy fat"?

Is it kinda like "healthy carb" and "healthy protein"?

Dexter3000
03-09-2012, 12:09 AM
I'm not saying it doesn't work for them, I'm saying that just because a fitness personality/IFBB pro does or says something, doesn't mean you should mindlessly copy it, because it doesn't have to actually be better for virtually everyone else.

Okay maybe I slightly misinterpreted your earlier post, we agree on this.

runner2010
03-09-2012, 12:26 AM
lol seriously?

well if you're not up for fats, which is a huge given, you can always throw back a few shots of vodka a day...

swimmer2010
03-09-2012, 12:33 AM
Of course science is very valuable in these discussions but don't underestimate it's ability to be misinterpreted by the researcher, publisher and interpreter on an internet forum.

Not to mention how often two studies on the same subject often show exactly opposite results...

SynchroGym
03-09-2012, 12:36 AM
lol seriously?

well if you're not up for fats, which is a huge given, you can always throw back a few shots of vodka a day...

no way, vodka is way too low calorie, go for pina coladas man.

BBqChicken1
03-09-2012, 01:04 AM
Not to mention how often two studies on the same subject often show exactly opposite results...

Care to give us examples?

swimmer2010
03-09-2012, 02:04 AM
Care to give us examples?

Sure, most relevant around here: saturated fat being bad vs. not. Half the studies say it's bad, half say it's fine.

BBqChicken1
03-09-2012, 04:35 AM
Sure, most relevant around here: saturated fat being bad vs. not. Half the studies say it's bad, half say it's fine.

Care to post said studies?

BOB55555
03-09-2012, 04:36 AM
Care to give us examples?

You may not consider them exactly opposite results but:

Every study in and on itself shows different results due to the way statistics work. As long as the mean does not represent the result found in every single subject, there will be standard deviations and confidence intervals, which will basically mean the study results are true on average for the chosen sample, but even in that sample specific individuals had different results, and so some of us may as well. Depending on the size of the standard deviation, the study can be almost meaningless (regressions to find beta in finance often are), especially when considering that the normal distribution may not always apply.

Studies are a pretty good start because they allow us to know what worked on average in a similar situation. In all likelihood a single individual will not gonna be compatible with the exact average of every single study. That's where well read bodybuilders will often start to let some personal experience drift them a little bit away from the averages found in the studies.

That's not necessary to link specific studies, since they're all done this way. If you want to read studies that truly contradict each other, just do a search in my recent posts. There's a thread called "another question of meal timing, if I recall correctly", where I linked some studies that preach very unconventional stuff by our current standards. There's also a recent fish oil thread where I commented on my worries about a single study that goes against most and basically says that's bad for you.

Studies are very good, but they have limitations. Not to mention that sometimes they just suck by virtue of poor design/questionable intentions.

BlackHeart.au
03-09-2012, 04:41 AM
You should get over that ethos to be honest. If you're on here enough you would know and understand that the timing of carbs is unimportant in terms of body comp.

Carb timing can manipulate water retention. Thus, is why people avoid "too" much carbs before events such as the beach, comps or even the sake of just being bloated.

BOB55555
03-09-2012, 04:44 AM
OK. Here is the fish oil study that seems to go against everything else: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12571649

This is a compilation of 106 papers and many of the results analyzed go against the majority of the studies we know as well:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2129150/

Among other things, the article above told me to:

- Space my meals
- Do IF
- Pay special attention to my pre and post workout meals
- Don't take too much protein at once
- Drink shakes instead of food
- Reduce most of my protein intake and use creatine instead, because creatine owns.

and then you need some pretty knowledgeable posters to dig in the limitations of the studies and the contradicting information out there, such as was done in this thread - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=142372731&pagenumber=

So yeah, studies can and will contradict other studies. To really understand what's going on, you need to be well informed about many of them, be able to point out their limitations and be able to form an opinion on the strength of the evidence as a whole for each hypothesis.

I don't have the time or skills to do that. The next best thing ( I hope) may be to read what people with that kind of knowledge write, and even them have some minor disagreements as well - you can see that by reading stuff by Alan Aragon, Will Brink, Martin Berkhan, Layne Norton, Lyle McDonald and etc.

Dexter3000
03-09-2012, 05:06 AM
OK. Here is the fish oil study that seems to go against everything else: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12571649

This is a compilation of 106 papers and many of the results analyzed go against the majority of the studies we know as well:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2129150/

Among other things, the article above told me to:

- Space my meals
- Do IF
- Pay special attention to my pre and post workout meals
- Don't take too much protein at once
- Drink shakes instead of food
- Reduce most of my protein intake and use creatine instead, because creatine owns.

and then you need some pretty knowledgeable posters to dig in the limitations of the studies and the contradicting information out there, such as was done in this thread - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=142372731&pagenumber=

So yeah, studies can and will contradict other studies. To really understand what's going on, you need to be well informed about many of them, be able to point out their limitations and be able to form an opinion on the strength of the evidence as a whole for each hypothesis.

I don't have the time or skills to do that. The next best thing ( I hope) may be to read what people with that kind of knowledge write, and even them have some minor disagreements as well - you can see that by reading stuff by Alan Aragon, Will Brink, Martin Berkhan, Layne Norton, Lyle McDonald and etc.

That's where personal anecdotal 'evidence' comes in, in my opinion. There's only so much you can extract from science and in the end, all science is based on empirical data, which in itself are all experiments. The biggest advantage of experimenting yourself, however, is that you can be sure it is what it is and these preferences, rules and do's or don'ts actually apply to you. In the long term, this is most efficient and you can learn a thing or two in the process.

As a side note, most if not all hard scientific studies completely ignore psychological systems that affect one's behavior. It's completely understandable, but I think one's personal circumstances are often underestimated in the success one can or might experience with different dietary approaches and so on. For example; if 'science' says IF is optimal but you develop an eating disorder because you can't stand skipping breakfast (which has happened to many people actually), it's not optimal for you and it would be best to completely disregard that advice.

I like this post as well, it expands more on what I'm trying to say and how one (well, this guy) may look at science and studies w.r.t. fintess: http://www.silverhydra.com/2012/03/empiricism-and-science-with-special-consideration-to-swole/

ven33
03-09-2012, 08:49 AM
Carb timing can manipulate water retention. Thus, is why people avoid "too" much carbs before events such as the beach, comps or even the sake of just being bloated.

No way really?

If you would have read the entire discussion you would know that the point being discussed is the effects of carbs post workout.

Go troll elsewhere.