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latebloomingmom
02-04-2012, 11:20 AM
so I am doing a bit of reading on Westside methods of lifting and they mentioned training for speed at 50/60 percent of one max wt, doing lots of sets (8-10) lower reps.
I am a slow and steady lifter so I am curious as to why I would want to start doing this...
right now I switch back and forth from lifting heavy/low reps to lifting lighter/higher reps
anybody alread doing this and if so why?
do you think it has helped with strength gains?



just curious...been trying to find something to help with increasing my bench.



if this has been 'done to death' already..I apologize in advance
point me in the right direction and I will go read it.:)

Big_Sky_Guy
02-04-2012, 04:04 PM
Lifting for speed. Generally done with 40-60% of your max effort. Often combined with bands or chains to increase the need to apply force to keep the bar speed steady or accellerating

Dynamic Effort is based on the idea of increasing explosive strength. Explosive strength does not have a recognized definition, but strength is our ability to apply force to an object. So, imagine being able to do it quickly/violently.

During a squat session with Mark Bell last summer, one of the CFit PL Certification participants asked, "How fast should it feel?" Mark said, "You should feel like you are jumping!" Obviously you will not be jumping, but it should feel like you are accellerating the bar through the top of the lift. The plates should basically rattle a bit if you did not have collars on as you reach the end of the lift with no decelleration. The more advanced practice on speed day would be to then add bands or chains to force us to apply even more force to keep accellerating the bar.

Some physics for fun!


Force = mass x accelleration

Accelleration = rate of change in velocity with time (increasing speed)

Work = force over a distance

Power = rate at which work is performed


The idea of several methods, including Westside, is to train both absolute power (max lift) and an dynamic power (speed lift) in a week. We train speed to prepare out body to "explode" = applying massive force to accellerate the bar to do the work as fast as possible which is equivalent to more power.

Louie Simmons is not the greatest writer (neither am I). So I look to other writers, trainers, and science to explain how training both max and dynamic effort are ultimately synergistic. Each style by itself is good for a purpose, but together they produce great results in both areas of speed and absolute power.

Smelly bull
02-04-2012, 04:28 PM
Lifting for speed. Generally done with 40-60% of your max effort. Often combined with bands or chains to increase the need to apply force to keep the bar speed steady or accellerating

Dynamic Effort is based on the idea of increasing explosive strength. Explosive strength does not have a recognized definition, but strength is our ability to apply force to an object. So, imagine being able to do it quickly/violently.

During a squat session with Mark Bell last summer, one of the CFit PL Certification participants asked, "How fast should it feel?" Mark said, "You should feel like you are jumping!" Obviously you will not be jumping, but it should feel like you are accellerating the bar through the top of the lift. The plates should basically rattle a bit if you did not have collars on as you reach the end of the lift with no decelleration. The more advanced practice on speed day would be to then add bands or chains to force us to apply even more force to keep accellerating the bar.

Some physics for fun!


Force = mass x accelleration

Accelleration = rate of change in velocity with time (increasing speed)

Work = force over a distance

Power = rate at which work is performed


The idea of several methods, including Westside, is to train both absolute power (max lift) and an dynamic power (speed lift) in a week. We train speed to prepare out body to "explode" = applying massive force to accellerate the bar to do the work as fast as possible which is equivalent to more power.

Louie Simmons is not the greatest writer (neither am I). So I look to other writers, trainers, and science to explain how training both max and dynamic effort are ultimately synergistic. Each style by itself is good for a purpose, but together they produce great results in both areas of speed and absolute power.

Pretty much this...nice post.

Nikonguy
02-04-2012, 05:01 PM
Here are some of the powerlifting programs stickied in the PL/Strongman forum. Scroll down for Westside

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?p=269107331#post269107331

DE (dynamic effort) days will only get you stronger if you also do the ME (maximum efforet) days.
You will also need to figure out where you are weakest on bench so you can add some specific assistance work.

:)

bigtallox
02-04-2012, 05:23 PM
why I would want to start doing this...

It develops a different kind of strength. It'll help increase your max lifts too.




been trying to find something to help with increasing my bench.


My max bench increased quite a bit when I started training dynamic effort.

latebloomingmom
02-04-2012, 05:26 PM
I have to go in the strongman forum????:)
alright I am going.....
thank you all for your responses!

Hey I have seen this before just didnt know what it was..
guy in the gym had chains on the bar and was lifting really fast..

latebloomingmom
02-04-2012, 05:56 PM
Here are some of the powerlifting programs stickied in the PL/Strongman forum. Scroll down for Westside

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?p=269107331#post269107331

DE (dynamic effort) days will only get you stronger if you also do the ME (maximum efforet) days.
You will also need to figure out where you are weakest on bench so you can add some specific assistance work.

:)
ok I read it..max days followed a day or two later by the dynamic effort days..
my weak area on the bench is the lock out by far..:(

Vermonter
02-04-2012, 06:09 PM
ok I read it..max days followed a day or two later by the dynamic effort days..
my weak area on the bench is the lock out by far..:(

Do some supplementary triceps training then, too.

GnomusMaximus
02-05-2012, 07:14 AM
Dynamic Effort first came from Olympic Lifting where speed is king. the combination of Dynamic Effort(speed) with Maximum Effort became known as the "conjugate method". I'm pretty sure the term was first used by the Soviets but could be wrong. It is pretty important in the throwing world where you are trying to move lighter weights but with incredible force.

latebloomingmom
02-05-2012, 07:25 AM
Do some supplementary triceps training then, too.
yep...working on it..any suggestions?
I was doing six or seven different tri's when I joined this site but since changing to doing a lot of compound lifts..a lot of these got left behind...wondering which ones to add back in..already doing dips.

jor012
02-05-2012, 07:38 AM
It develops a different kind of strength. It'll help increase your max lifts too.




My max bench increased quite a bit when I started training dynamic effort.That pretty much explains it but just wondering why you refer to 8-10 reps as low reps. This is my understanding of the three overall rep ranges. High reps over 12 to 20 are good for conditioning and general fitness..(8-12) I prefer 8-10 as being the sweet spot for hypertrophy..developing muscle and 4-6 reps is generally a good range for strength training.

Smelly bull
02-05-2012, 12:32 PM
yep...working on it..any suggestions?
I was doing six or seven different tri's when I joined this site but since changing to doing a lot of compound lifts..a lot of these got left behind...wondering which ones to add back in..already doing dips.

Close gripped bench press...JMs, Skull Crushers are all very good triceps workouts.

-=FLEX=-
02-05-2012, 01:14 PM
point me in the right direction

The kitchen. It's that way. -------------->


















;)

Wildtim
02-05-2012, 07:02 PM
yep...working on it..any suggestions?
I was doing six or seven different tri's when I joined this site but since changing to doing a lot of compound lifts..a lot of these got left behind...wondering which ones to add back in..already doing dips.

You ME bench lift could be partials to target just that portion of the lift while or floor presses which emphasize it.

your DE bench day could then be full bench presses for speed.

latebloomingmom
02-05-2012, 07:02 PM
The kitchen. It's that way. -------------->



















;)
whatever...like I really need another sammich:)

Marius_Ursus
02-06-2012, 06:48 AM
Speed work never made me stronger, but it got me past sticking points. I think it worked because of teaching my muscle fibers how to fire more effectively at the start of the lift.

latebloomingmom
02-06-2012, 07:14 AM
You ME bench lift could be partials to target just that portion of the lift while or floor presses which emphasize it.

your DE bench day could then be full bench presses for speed.
partials how? if its just the last 1/4 -1/3 of the lift? using the heaviest weight I can manage to get up in the air?
pardon me if I am not using the right lingo here but...on my bench rack I have two sets of umm adjustable holds..rests? whatever you call what the bar sits on when you lock it out..
If I set one 3/4 way up and then one set all the way up is this what you mean?




is 'sticking point' a nice way to say failure?:)

Marius_Ursus
02-06-2012, 07:25 AM
partials how? if its just the last 1/4 -1/3 of the lift? using the heaviest weight I can manage to get up in the air?
pardon me if I am not using the right lingo here but...on my bench rack I have two sets of umm adjustable holds..rests? whatever you call what the bar sits on when you lock it out..
If I set one 3/4 way up and then one set all the way up is this what you mean?




is 'sticking point' a nice way to say failure?:)

Partials can be performed in a power cage with safety pins set to the appropriate height or by putting something solid on your chest to rest the bar on to lift from the appropriate height.

Regarding the sticking point, from a BB point of view, it could be called "a failure", but in a powerlifting mindset, the exercises are broken down into components, and you might be able to complete a lift and not start it, or you may be able to start a lift and not complete it. My own sticking point for deadlifts, for instance, is always breaking contact, but once the bar starts to move, I have no problem (within reason, not trying to pull 500 pounds when 300 pounds was my previous record - for example) getting lockout on a 1RM attempt. To train past the sticking point, you put a 80 or 90% of your best pull on the bar and stand on blocks or a little platform or a plate to lengthen the pull. This forces you to generate more force with your hips and hams to pull the bar from the floor.

My bench needs a lot more work than my deadlift, so to get past my bench stick, which is also usually breaking contact with my chest indicating a weakness in the pectorals vice in the triceps, I perform speed work which brings that neural-firing component from liftoff more into play. If you have no problem breaking contact but can't lock out, the recommendation would be to work on triceps pushing which means lifting from a height higher than your chest. Exactly where depends on where you lose acceleration.

latebloomingmom
02-06-2012, 07:35 AM
Thank you for your response....put something solid on my chest???yikes.
lifting from a height higher then your chest...ok this is kind of what I figured..thanks!

Marius_Ursus
02-06-2012, 08:03 AM
Thank you for your response....put something solid on my chest???yikes.
lifting from a height higher then your chest...ok this is kind of what I figured..thanks!

A bench press board is typically used because you want supported height from the lift, but you can improvise...and to be completely safe, you should have someone stabilizing the board for you.

http://train.elitefts.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/2-Board-Press.jpg

BrotherWolf
02-06-2012, 09:04 AM
Dynamic Effort first came from Olympic Lifting where speed is king. the combination of Dynamic Effort(speed) with Maximum Effort became known as the "conjugate method". I'm pretty sure the term was first used by the Soviets but could be wrong. It is pretty important in the throwing world where you are trying to move lighter weights but with incredible force.

No you're correct , it was the soviets

BrotherWolf
02-06-2012, 09:05 AM
A bench press board is typically used because you want supported height from the lift, but you can improvise...and to be completely safe, you should have someone stabilizing the board for you.

http://train.elitefts.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/2-Board-Press.jpg

Also good for spanking bad girls ....

BrotherWolf
02-06-2012, 09:06 AM
yep...working on it..any suggestions?
I was doing six or seven different tri's when I joined this site but since changing to doing a lot of compound lifts..a lot of these got left behind...wondering which ones to add back in..already doing dips.
Dips are great just add weight to them and skull crushers ..

BrotherWolf
02-06-2012, 09:11 AM
is 'sticking point' a nice way to say failure?:)

It's that point when you fail ..yes
it could be off the chest, middle or lockout
the speed movements helps develop the fast twitch muscle fibers which in the end helps your overall lifts

Big_Sky_Guy
02-06-2012, 09:40 AM
A bench press board is typically used because you want supported height from the lift, but you can improvise...and to be completely safe, you should have someone stabilizing the board for you.

http://train.elitefts.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/2-Board-Press.jpg

How come I never see this at my gym???


I prefer board press over rack lockouts as my whole setup is better and I am tighter leading to be able to be more dynamic off the board. For some reason I cannot get set up and press explosively with heavy weight without shoulder pain from the rack.

latebloomingmom
02-06-2012, 11:32 AM
Dips are great just add weight to them and skull crushers ..
doing skull crushers already, pushdowns (cables), overhead extensions, kickbacks, single arm puhsdowns...I forget..that might be all. weighted dips??oh man


should be a rule...should not have to do weighted dips if you already
weigh a lot...

latebloomingmom
02-06-2012, 11:34 AM
A bench press board is typically used because you want supported height from the lift, but you can improvise...and to be completely safe, you should have someone stabilizing the board for you.

http://train.elitefts.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/2-Board-Press.jpg
ya..why not just call that torture and get if over with...I am gonna need a bigger board..or is that a paddle?

BrotherWolf
02-06-2012, 03:27 PM
doing skull crushers already, pushdowns (cables), overhead extensions, kickbacks, single arm puhsdowns...I forget..that might be all. weighted dips??oh man
well then instead of doing so many different exercises do just one main; weighted Dips and a secondary, skullcrushers even better forget about skullcrushers do lying tricep extensions
done this way

http://vimeo.com/25983467

I know bodybuilders and PT want you to do a million different exercises to confuse and hit the muscles from different angles but really the tricep is composed of 1 muscle and it's got 3 heads ...lateral, medial and long
Dips already covers all 3 , skull crushers sort of concentrate on 1 the long head and lying tricep extension done like in the video cover all 3 and make skull crushers useless\

In short do less exercises but do them heavier , we are talking about strength and power here so less in this case is more
if you can do sets of 10 or more add weight until you can't do more than 5-6 reps and do 3 to 5 sets you can rest as long as necessary between sets ... 3-4 minutes



should be a rule...should not have to do weighted dips if you already
weigh a lot...

HAHAHAH... so if you want to add weight instead of using a dip belt you can use bacon ranch dip and chips.. that'll add weight :P

BrotherWolf
02-06-2012, 03:37 PM
A bench press board is typically used because you want supported height from the lift, but you can improvise...and to be completely safe, you should have someone stabilizing the board for you.

http://train.elitefts.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/2-Board-Press.jpg

Ironically today I went to the gym much earlier than usual and one of the PT that I never met , not Asian but she's definitely a BBer, dressed up just like that ... long black hair big fake boobs
she was training a guy with the board and she turned around to say hi and it looked just like this picture... except she was smiling
I almost burst out laughing thinking about my spanking comment

latebloomingmom
02-06-2012, 06:01 PM
alright...now I gotta think this over...knew I needed to up the skullcrushers if I was gonna keep them..knew I was supposed to be doing weighted dips when they got easy, tried it once and said...ouch..so I went back to doing lots of regular ones..I guess it's a relief in a way to know its not (just) a weak chest...but I am gonna try this..next chest day I am gonna lift heavy and then wait two day and then I am gonna put on the chains..which seems weird but hey, I will try it and go fast as I can go. I will go heavy on the tri's. :)

BrotherWolf
02-06-2012, 06:21 PM
alright...now I gotta think this over...knew I needed to up the skullcrushers if I was gonna keep them..knew I was supposed to be doing weighted dips when they got easy, tried it once and said...ouch..so I went back to doing lots of regular ones..I guess it's a relief in a way to know its not (just) a weak chest...but I am gonna try this..next chest day I am gonna lift heavy and then wait two day and then I am gonna put on the chains..which seems weird but hey, I will try it and go fast as I can go. I will go heavy on the tri's. :)

You can try and stop if it's not working .. the great thing about weight lifting, versatility