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David Wiggins
01-28-2012, 06:05 AM
As some of you know, I haven't been able to squat for 15 years due to a cervical fusion from a broken neck. I am always looking for new training ideas. Got the Zercher squat idea from Louie Simmons / Westside as an alternative. Feels great to finally get the "squat feel" again in my body!

To do Zerchers, you basically hook the bar in front of you in your arms @ the elbows, and then of course squat.

First time I only used the bar (lol)! Now after 3 sessions, I have worked up to 365 lbs for a few reps! A little input from you guys such as - have you tried them, how it relates to your normal squat, and where did you run into trouble (weight, pain, etc).

Rowyn
01-28-2012, 06:12 AM
As some of you know, I haven't been able to squat for 15 years due to a cervical fusion from a broken neck. I am always looking for new training ideas. Got the Zerker squat idea from Louie Simmons / Westside as an alternative. Feels great to finally get the "squat feel" again in my body!

To do Zerkers, you basically hook the bar in front of you in your arms @ the elbows, and then of course squat.

First time I only used the bar (lol)! Now after 3 sessions, I have worked up to 365 lbs for a few reps! A little input from you guys such as - have you tried them, how it relates to your normal squat, and where did you run into trouble (weight, pain, etc).

Not to be a brat, but they are called Zercher squats. I recommend them all the time to people who have no squat rack or gym since you can just RDL the weight up or place the bar across two benches to load. I love them but they ain't easy, very much the same type of dynamics as a regular front squat.

David Wiggins
01-28-2012, 06:25 AM
Not to be a brat, but they are called Zercher squats. I recommend them all the time to people who have no squat rack or gym since you can just RDL the weight up or place the bar across two benches to load. I love them but they ain't easy, very much the same type of dynamics as a regular front squat.

Sorry for the mispell! LOL

Iceman1800
01-28-2012, 06:25 AM
I love zerchers. I do them a bit different tho. I start with the bar on pins at knee level then go down and squat it up. A lot harder this way. Great exercise and lots of variety. Close stance, wide stance, starting at different heights.....

David Wiggins
01-28-2012, 06:28 AM
I love zerchers. I do them a bit different tho. I start with the bar on pins at knee level then go down and squat it up. A lot harder this way. Great exercise and lots of variety. Close stance, wide stance, starting at different heights.....

Iceman, I know you're a strong dude.... What type of working weight do you generally use? I have no idea where I should be, or working towards.

Iceman1800
01-28-2012, 06:53 AM
I work up to about 400# on these. After that, it gets too brutal on the elbow crease. I found using my fat bar helps a bit with the arm discomfort

David Wiggins
01-28-2012, 07:02 AM
I work up to about 400# on these. After that, it gets too brutal on the elbow crease. I found using my fat bar helps a bit with the arm discomfort

I kinda figure the elbow crease may limit the load.. Thanks.

Tommy W.
01-28-2012, 07:59 AM
Get a piecce of foam pipe insulation from the hardware store and put it on the bar when you do these.

Great exercise for picking up women (literally)

ironwill2008
01-28-2012, 08:17 AM
...how it relates to your normal squat...

Zerchers are closely akin to Front Squats; the CG is moved forward compared to a Barbell Back Squat, shifting the emphasis away from the glutes/hams, and more to the quads.

They're a go-to lift for those with no Squat rack, or those like yourself, who have issue with a bar across their upper back/shoulders.

I've never done them heavy enough to cause any problem for myself, but as Tommy W mentioned, if you start experiencing bruising in your forearms or the crooks of your elbows, some type of padding would be a good idea. I've seen a guy wrap a big towel around the bar to do heavy Zerchers as well. If you're already up to 365 though, you're probably already way past where this might be a problem for you.




http://assets.bodybuilding.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

Good deal in finding a work-around to a training problem. Too many people want to throw in the towel when the going gets a little rocky.

David Wiggins
01-28-2012, 04:36 PM
http://assets.bodybuilding.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

Good deal in finding a work-around to a training problem. Too many people want to throw in the towel when the going gets a little rocky.

Thanks! Hoping this will be an aid in getting my hip band area back in shape enough for some HEAVY deadlifting!

bigtallox
01-28-2012, 05:14 PM
First time I only used the bar (lol)! Now after 3 sessions, I have worked up to 365 lbs for a few reps! A little input from you guys such as - have you tried them, how it relates to your normal squat, and where did you run into trouble (weight, pain, etc).

I do them occasionally, they're a good accessory exercise for doing stones. I've gone up to 405-ish with them, I've never had any reason to use any type of insulation, for me that'd kind of defeat the purpose. I wonder what Louie Simmons would say about using insulation with them. I'd suspect he'd say something like it's ok if you walk into the gym with a pink purse too.

plumher
01-28-2012, 05:22 PM
I do them occasionally, they're a good accessory exercise for doing stones. I've gone up to 405-ish with them, I've never had any reason to use any type of insulation, for me that'd kind of defeat the purpose.

God, that stone pick up thing you strongmen guys do looks tough!! Got to be like wrestling a greased pig- there's nothing to grab a hold of.

I prefer the front squat to work the quads. Built me a steel harness to distribute the weight to the traps because the bar was killing my old shoulders. The Zercher squats got to be hard on the forearms and elbows as well.

Brackneyc
01-28-2012, 05:41 PM
Here is one I found on Youtube. I do not know what they are supposed to look like, but this looked like the best example to me (of all that I saw). Aside from the way he picks it up (brutal), looks like it would be great. Going to attempt.:)

U2OKweR-N-g

bigtallox
01-28-2012, 05:52 PM
Here is one I found on Youtube. I do not know what they are supposed to look like, but this looked like the best example to me (of all that I saw). Aside from the way he picks it up (brutal), looks like it would be great. Going to attempt.:)

U2OKweR-N-g

They look good. That bar looks long, I wish I had that to squat with ( or maybe it's just how it looks in the video to me ).

freebirdmac
01-28-2012, 05:57 PM
Here is one I found on Youtube. I do not know what they are supposed to look like, but this looked like the best example to me (of all that I saw). Aside from the way he picks it up (brutal), looks like it would be great. Going to attempt.:)

U2OKweR-N-g

The pause at the bottom is brutal!

Bando
01-28-2012, 06:17 PM
I do them occasionally, they're a good accessory exercise for doing stones. I've gone up to 405-ish with them, I've never had any reason to use any type of insulation, for me that'd kind of defeat the purpose. I wonder what Louie Simmons would say about using insulation with them. I'd suspect he'd say something like it's ok if you walk into the gym with a pink purse too.

I use a pad for front squats, takes the discomfort off my delts and I can concentrate on my legs.

Quite honestly, you've never done Zerchers with 405, that's just silly.

Also, I can DL 420 @ 175lbs and you do 500 at more than twice my weight? That's not strong, man.

bigtallox
01-28-2012, 06:46 PM
Quite honestly, you've never done Zerchers with 405, that's just silly.


That's too funny, yes I have.



Also, I can DL 420 @ 175lbs and you do 500 at more than twice my weight? That's not strong, man.

No, I did 500 double overhand no straps, it's a grip exercise. My max deadlift is a lot more. And nobody asked you for your opinion about my strength. Strength is only pound for pound if you can't hang otherwise, my max raw deadlift is comperable to top masters heavy weight strongmen competitors.

Bando
01-28-2012, 07:05 PM
nobody asked you for your opinion about my strength. Strength is only pound for pound if you can't hang otherwise, my max raw deadlift is comperable to top masters heavy weight strongmen competitors.

Nobody asked you to interject strongman into EVERY. SINGLE. RESPONSE.

Mr. strongman I'm asking you flat out...

How much can you lift?

-=FLEX=-
01-28-2012, 07:42 PM
popcorn.gif

BrotherWolf
01-28-2012, 08:59 PM
popcorn.gif

pass me some .....

:)

Bando
01-28-2012, 09:07 PM
aint so strong..

Corbi
01-29-2012, 04:44 AM
No, I did 500 double overhand no straps, it's a grip exercise. My max deadlift is a lot more. And nobody asked you for your opinion about my strength. Strength is only pound for pound if you can't hang otherwise, my max raw deadlift is comperable to top masters heavy weight strongmen competitors.

In for the answer to how much you can DL, someone your size should surely be in the 700+ lb range no?

David Wiggins
01-29-2012, 07:28 AM
Quite honestly, you've never done Zerchers with 405, that's just silly.

I can DL 420 @ 175lbs and you do 500 at more than twice my weight? That's not strong, man.

At first, I thought this was a joke til I saw the supporting posts. Not sure why anyone would think BTO couldn't go 405. I just started and went 365.. BTO is a COMPETITIVE Strong Man.

Bando, I am not debating your opinion, BUT he is not TWICE your weight, and he DOES DL more than 500. It is hard to take you seriously when you skew the truth. (If you were truly serious). I'll bet BTOs BW varies 5-10 lbs daily, as does mine.

And truthfully, I get sick and tired of the "you're not that strong" to the larger posters here. It seems this type comment always pops up when weight numbers are used. I can respect the 150 lbs. lifter. Why can't they repsect the larger lifter??

Sorry if I sound cocky here but here goes: regardless of body weight, if lifter #1 benches 315, and #2 benches 500, #2 is the STRONGER LIFTER!
LOL, I feel like I am once again defending BTO. Like he needs it.

Corbi
01-29-2012, 10:15 AM
BUT he is not TWICE your weight,

I need to refute this David as Bando weighs right around 170 which multiplied x 2 would equal 340 so yes BTO does weigh twice what he does. But I do agree that strength does not increase linear, so someone twice as big will usually not be twice as strong or be able to lift twice as much.

BrotherWolf
01-29-2012, 10:27 AM
I think you guys need to read this and get off BTO's back


Determining the Dependence between Weightlifting Results in Different Weight Classes

http://www.dynamic-eleiko.com/sportivny/library/news/nv001.html

cmoore
01-29-2012, 10:45 AM
Wow! That's awesome! Thanks for posting this. I had never seen this lift before. This is perfect for my transradial amputees who still want to dead lift. THANKS!!!

David Wiggins
01-29-2012, 11:29 AM
I need to refute this David as Bando weighs right around 170 which multiplied x 2 would equal 340 so yes BTO does weigh twice what he does. But I do agree that strength does not increase linear, so someone twice as big will usually not be twice as strong or be able to lift twice as much.
LOL, Corbi. Don't care to split hairs, but Bando stated 175 in his post, BTO claims a current of 345. 175x2= 350.... BTO is usually around 335-340. Not that this changes the general lack of respect that I was referring to.

I agree that double weight doesn't mean double strength, just as I also believe that bodyweight (even bad) will give an advantage.

I would just like to see a little more respect / appreciation towards all types of lifters / posters. Example: I do not BB any more, but admire the discipline it requires.

schmack
01-29-2012, 11:41 AM
I love doin front squats and just started doing Zercher squats. They allow me to go ATG more comfortably than back squats. Don't get me wrong I like back squats. I use the neck pad for my arm crease which helps.

BTW Zerchers were created by a strongman (Ed Zercher)

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/two_kinds_of_squats_youre_not_doing

Brackneyc
01-29-2012, 12:56 PM
I was just down prepping the gym (cleaning) for tomorrow, and tried an empty bar set of Zerchers. I think I will do them tomorrow in place of regular squats (or in addition to) to see how it goes.

freebirdmac
01-29-2012, 01:14 PM
I would just like to see a little more respect / appreciation towards all types of lifters / posters. Example: I do not BB any more, but admire the discipline it requires.

Odd thing to say when BTO derides bb style of training all the time. He patronizes folks here and throws in a lot of snide comments.

David Wiggins
01-29-2012, 01:44 PM
Odd thing to say when BTO derides bb style of training all the time. He patronizes folks here and throws in a lot of snide comments.

Not sure why this makes me "odd"? Unaware, but I am not BTO. It is not for me to agree or disagree completely with anyone here. I don't see why there always has to be "sides" or snide remarks. Unless I strongly have an opinion, I usually try to stay out of threads if I must degrade others.

But that is just ME.

Corbi
01-29-2012, 03:11 PM
I would just like to see a little more respect / appreciation towards all types of lifters / posters. Example: I do not BB any more, but admire the discipline it requires.



Odd thing to say when BTO derides bb style of training all the time. He patronizes folks here and throws in a lot of snide comments.


She is correct as BTO does do this quite often. Someone will ask a question about lets say pullups and Ox will chime in with "I wouldn't do them as atlas stones and pulling a train uphill with my nipple hairs is a fair better exercise for strongman, did I tell you I was a strongman".

And he has gotten a lot of props from folks before and after his competitions, yet he almost never returns the favor and tells someone something as sinple as "nice job". So basically he is getting back what he dishes out.

Smelly bull
01-29-2012, 04:08 PM
Zercher Squats are fantastic. This is the movement that taught me the true meaning of squat depth.

TenThreeFive
01-29-2012, 04:22 PM
Right or wrong I don't know if many would talk to this guy like this face to face.


http://imagecdn.bodybuilding.com/img/user_images/growable/2010/02/11/16739892/gallerypic/1WcQUYa3x5iXzh8cADIf6QoUa6oc229.jpeg

JRT6
01-29-2012, 05:28 PM
I don't care for the squats as they hurt my arms like hell, although I believe Simmons has some kind of that contraption that deals wth that, and I didn't find any carry over. I do like zercher deadlifts though; the weight is much lower and it really works the hip and back mobility.

JRT6
01-29-2012, 05:37 PM
No, I did 500 double overhand no straps, it's a grip exercise. My max deadlift is a lot more. And nobody asked you for your opinion about my strength. Strength is only pound for pound if you can't hang otherwise, my max raw deadlift is comperable to top masters heavy weight strongmen competitors.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g284/JRT6/whos_awesome.jpg

Brackneyc
01-29-2012, 06:01 PM
Right or wrong I don't know if many would talk to this guy like this face to face.


http://imagecdn.bodybuilding.com/img/user_images/growable/2010/02/11/16739892/gallerypic/1WcQUYa3x5iXzh8cADIf6QoUa6oc229.jpeg

Not without a ladder, that is for sure.

otiskii
01-30-2012, 08:48 AM
Dave, that's impressive going from 0 to 365 so fast, even though you are a big lifter. I did these with a little bit of weight when I started back in Dec due to a frozen shoulder. Shoulder is better but the weight I squat with is still light enough to let me use a strap to get the same effect I would with a yoke bar in a more traditional squat.


And as far as BTO not being strong. Geez. I'f I'm trapped under a Buick I want BTO, Dave and any other big guy involved to get me out. I don't think I'd say no, no, get me the 140 pound guy that can lift 2x BW. I don't think somebody 5'6 should be slinging anything here. They have no idea what guys over 6' have dealt with all their lives. All they need to know is if we can lift them up high enough so they can see the puppet show. I can DL nearly what Bando is claiming and I've been lifting 5 WEEKS.

RMBros
01-30-2012, 09:04 AM
Here is one I found on Youtube. I do not know what they are supposed to look like, but this looked like the best example to me (of all that I saw). Aside from the way he picks it up (brutal), looks like it would be great. Going to attempt.:)

U2OKweR-N-g
Hadn't seen the DL to Z-squat before.

Has me thinking of some brutal full DL, lower to Z-Squat superset/combo platter - for those days when you really hate yourself.

I thought he was going for a Z-DL when he first approached the bar. Don't see those too often either.

Is there a Zercher clean out there somewhere?

RMBros
01-30-2012, 09:11 AM
Looks like there are Z-cleans, but they mostly involve sandbags - since you can't really rack the SB in the true FrontSQ/Clean position on the front delts, you just cradle it like a Zercher.

May have to add that to the list of exercises that I would like to do, but never get around to doing.

keyboardworkout
01-30-2012, 10:48 AM
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4095091&d=1327949278


Pavel Tsatsouline performing a Zercher deadlift with 140kg (315lb) as electrodes measure muscular activity.

(Stuart McGill PhD and Spine Biomechanics Lab, University of Waterloo, Canada).

CookAndrewB
01-30-2012, 12:36 PM
Odd thing to say when BTO derides bb style of training all the time. He patronizes folks here and throws in a lot of snide comments.

Example:
VVVV


I wonder what Louie Simmons would say about using insulation with them. I'd suspect he'd say something like it's ok if you walk into the gym with a pink purse too.

:rolleyes:


God, that stone pick up thing you strongmen guys do looks tough!! Got to be like wrestling a greased pig- there's nothing to grab a hold of.


Don't be fooled, it isn't as bad as you think it is. There is a bit of technique to it, and we use tacky (pine rosin) to help stick to the stones... and then stick to everything we touch afterwards :D

If I properly recall, I believe I'm a better stone loader than Ox :D Think I'm a better overhead presser too :confused:

Anyway, Ox thinks about things from the perspective of his sports. I think you will generally find that most people do this, and that it is hardly unique to Ox. Hell, I am routinely mired down in conversations because I'm not a bodybuilder and I can't get someone else to snap out of that mentality. It is what it is.

Anyway, Ox is successful as a strongman competitor, and thus he is adequately strong for his particular sport. If his level of strength doesn't make you want to touch yourself, that's fine. If you don't like what he has to say, this place has a marvelous "ignore" feature. Throwing down the e-gauntlet like this is the teen section seems equally as obnoxious as Ox's snide remarks and proclivity to change any subject into a strongman subject. I'm all for poking fun and heated debates, but I generally draw the line at "my dad can beat up your dad" arguments and blatant penis comparisons. If you must compare penis dimensions, please try to at least make SEEM like you have some other intent.

So, onto the Zercher talk!

Ok, so I would strongly suggest that most people avoid zercher deadlifts (full pull from the floor). It puts the back in a rather compromised position, which isn't dangerous by itself, but it does open the door to things going bad pretty quickly. Also, if the primary goal is to hit the legs, pulling from the floor will put your hips too high to start with. Watch this video:

LxdxCt4_SHY

The version you really want to be doing (again, if leg development is the goal) would be a zercher squat:

naaZ97qljdM (individual in video is damn near one of the strongest people I've ever seen, and is a top level power lifter).

In this case, the movement is really more of a "neutral" squat. Not so drastically upright as a front squat and not such a hip driven squat either. It really looks more like a goblet squat

PKmrXTx6jZs

Corbi
01-30-2012, 02:16 PM
Good post Cook, i'm going to try the zercher squats just like in the 2nd video you posted. I had wondered if they were similar to a goblet squat which I currently do on a weekly basis.

keyboardworkout
01-30-2012, 02:34 PM
In the Easy Strength video series, Dan John states that he came up with the idea for the Goblet Squat from the Zercher. He had two people demonstrate them side by side and they are very close.

I would love to see the spinal load results from Mcgill's study of Pavel's zercher deadlift. AFAIK, they have not been published.

Diesel Crew ran a video challenge a while back of 1/2 bodyweight goblet squats for 10.

JRT6
01-30-2012, 04:21 PM
Ain't nothing wrong with the zercher deadlift.

David Wiggins
01-30-2012, 06:06 PM
Ain't nothing wrong with the zercher deadlift.
Honestly, I don't think I could wad up for the Z DL! LMAO!

RMBros
01-31-2012, 04:19 AM
Ain't nothing wrong with the zercher deadlift.
It pretty much forces your lower back/pelvis into a funky position, which could lead to injury to folks without much flexibility.

From a real world POV, I'd think Z-DLs might have more carryover than any other barbell exercise - it looks pretty close to the natural position for picking up heavy **** that is on the ground.

RMBros
01-31-2012, 04:31 AM
BTW - this is the last Zercher thread (or Jay-Z or Zebra) I join - for some reason, the right shift key and the "Z" won't play nice on my keyboard. Anytime I capitalize Z, I have to force myself to use the other shift key (usually after I have already tried to use the proper shift key and ended up typing a space).

CookAndrewB
01-31-2012, 06:03 AM
Ain't nothing wrong with the zercher deadlift.

No, for most people this is true. However, this isn't a "protected" position for the back. When we see people deadlift out of the arched/flat back position of stability, we see an increase in injury. Some people can get away with it forever and ever. I don't know if they have very elastic connective tissue, super spongy disks, or what the case might be... but I would consider them freaks and wouldn't go out of my way to encourage people to train this way if there wasn't a very good reason.


It pretty much forces your lower back/pelvis into a funky position, which could lead to injury to folks without much flexibility.

From a real world POV, I'd think Z-DLs might have more carryover than any other barbell exercise - it looks pretty close to the natural position for picking up heavy **** that is on the ground.

Yep, this is a pretty common contortion that strongman competitors get into (if I might run the risk of pulling an Ox on everyone :D )

l5A62Rz9l0k

Compare ^^^^^^ with the zercher deadlift. It will look very similar in the start position.

Whether this is a "real world" position or not, I'm not sure that it is a great training position. Training should impose stress on the body, not distress. Again, if there is some specific performance measure that you need to worry about, then what can you do?

RMBros
01-31-2012, 07:03 AM
......wouldn't go out of my way to encourage people to train this way if there wasn't a very good reason.



Yep, this is a pretty common contortion that strongman competitors get into (if I might run the risk of pulling an Ox on everyone :D )

l5A62Rz9l0k

Compare ^^^^^^ with the zercher deadlift. It will look very similar in the start position.

Whether this is a "real world" position or not, I'm not sure that it is a great training position. Training should impose stress on the body, not distress. Again, if there is some specific performance measure that you need to worry about, then what can you do?
Your point is a good one - always have measure risk vs benefit, especially for those of us who let our egos do the thinking in the weight room.

I had a couple of images/scenarios in my mind when I said "real world":

Moving heavy-ass rocks around when you're doing some landscaping @ home - Z-DL looks exactly like that.

Picking up heavy feed bags or bags of gravel - again, Z-DL is the same.

MMA/BJJ lifting an opponent - but now that I'm thinking it over, it looks nothing like Z-DL. You'd almost never lift someone while you were on your feet. Even a full DL would be deeper than you would normally ever go. Think of Rampage's famous body-slam armbar defense - I don't think the ROM was even 1/2 DL ROM.

Z-DL might simulate a fireman or soldier picking up an unconscious body to carry it. I guess I haven't ever learned how to pick up a body to get it to my shoulders - might be a good thing to learn.

RMBros
01-31-2012, 07:07 AM
As some of you know, I haven't been able to squat for 15 years due to a cervical fusion from a broken neck. I am always looking for new training ideas. Got the Zercher squat idea from Louie Simmons / Westside as an alternative. Feels great to finally get the "squat feel" again in my body!

To do Zerchers, you basically hook the bar in front of you in your arms @ the elbows, and then of course squat.

First time I only used the bar (lol)! Now after 3 sessions, I have worked up to 365 lbs for a few reps! A little input from you guys such as - have you tried them, how it relates to your normal squat, and where did you run into trouble (weight, pain, etc).
Going back to WSBB/Louie - you might try squats with a squat belt. From what I understand, all the leg work with not nearly as much CNS stress and no stress to the neck/back.

I think squat belts are fairly reasonable and I'm guessing they might be a good DIY project.

keyboardworkout
01-31-2012, 08:15 AM
The Russian Greco-Roman wrestler Alexander Karelin was known for training with heavy Zercher deadlifts.

330Cx2N-_6Q

Go to 2:00 in.
9yRJyBOSMOE

RMBros
01-31-2012, 09:17 AM
The Russian Greco-Roman wrestler Alexander Karelin was known for training with heavy Zercher deadlifts.

330Cx2N-_6Q

Go to 2:00 in.
9yRJyBOSMOE

Those are sweet - especially impressive because he's a super heavy.

Now I'm thinking about starting a BB Z-DL from a kneeling position or using a sandbag and doing the over/under variant that would be closer to the actual move.

Man, if you can do that fast enough, it would seem to be a decent MMA slam.

nvrstopworking
01-31-2012, 10:34 AM
Honestly, I don't think I could wad up for the Z DL! LMAO!

Lulz. I'm trying to picture that right now. I think that's one lift where a guy your size is at a definite disadvantage. :D

Jtbny
01-31-2012, 12:59 PM
Tried these yesterday after my back squat workout. I definatly feel them today. Wasn't sure how much I could do so I only went up to 200lbs. I did 10 sets of 8 starting at 95 pounds to get the feel of it. Just wondering, I'm not sure my stance was wide enough as I felt it in my knees. Do you keep a wide stance with these?

Thanks for sharing these, I had honestly never seen these done before. Going to add them in if I can get the foot position right!

David Wiggins
01-31-2012, 04:59 PM
Tried these yesterday after my back squat workout. I definatly feel them today. Wasn't sure how much I could do so I only went up to 200lbs. I did 10 sets of 8 starting at 95 pounds to get the feel of it. Just wondering, I'm not sure my stance was wide enough as I felt it in my knees. Do you keep a wide stance with these?

Thanks for sharing these, I had honestly never seen these done before. Going to add them in if I can get the foot position right!
Started out the same way, then I widened and sorta "fell" into the groove. For me it was all about width, and sitting back.

Jtbny
01-31-2012, 05:05 PM
Started out the same way, then I widened and sorta "fell" into the groove. For me it was all about width, and sitting back.

Thanks, next leg day I'm going to try a wider stance.

bodyhard
01-31-2012, 05:33 PM
At first, I thought this was a joke til I saw the supporting posts. Not sure why anyone would think BTO couldn't go 405. I just started and went 365.. BTO is a COMPETITIVE Strong Man.

Bando, I am not debating your opinion, BUT he is not TWICE your weight, and he DOES DL more than 500. It is hard to take you seriously when you skew the truth. (If you were truly serious). I'll bet BTOs BW varies 5-10 lbs daily, as does mine.

And truthfully, I get sick and tired of the "you're not that strong" to the larger posters here. It seems this type comment always pops up when weight numbers are used. I can respect the 150 lbs. lifter. Why can't they repsect the larger lifter??

Sorry if I sound cocky here but here goes: regardless of body weight, if lifter #1 benches 315, and #2 benches 500, #2 is the STRONGER LIFTER!
LOL, I feel like I am once again defending BTO. Like he needs it.

The thing is, BTO always seems to knock bodybuilding style training at every opportunity he gets, then he brags about how strong he is, when in actuallity he is not that strong in the area he brags so much about.

You can't expect to always belittle bodybuilding style training and not have people who train in a bodybuilding fashion to jump all over you, especially if you are not that good in the style of training you brag about.

Iceman1800
01-31-2012, 05:50 PM
Ain't nothing wrong with the zercher deadlift.No but most don't have the flexibility to pick a bar off the floor using their elbo joint. I tried and failed :) I pick it off pins set at knee height

CookAndrewB
01-31-2012, 08:27 PM
Your point is a good one - always have measure risk vs benefit, especially for those of us who let our egos do the thinking in the weight room.


I worry that people tend to do stuff with little idea what the risks are, or little idea that they are even putting themselves at risk. There was a BIG push for people to do ATG squats a few years back. It was as if you couldn't make any progress, and you ran the risk of being forced to carry a pink purse (to quote Ox), if you weren't leaving butt marks during a squat session. The problem is that MOST people greatly increase their risk of injury to their lower back when they start to get too deep. For many people "too deep" will actually be a point above parallel, depending on hip mobility. So we encourage people to squat deeper than their body is ready for, for no apparent reason, as squat depth is somewhat an arbitrary ideal for those who have no squat based performance standard.

People have odd ideas about what makes you "hard core" or a man, and they start throwing good sense and risk management out the window. What Alexander Karelin should do for training, and what a middle aged man looking to lose some pounds should do will look VERY different... and largely the BB.com crows seems to ignore this point.


Going back to WSBB/Louie - you might try squats with a squat belt. From what I understand, all the leg work with not nearly as much CNS stress and no stress to the neck/back.

I think squat belts are fairly reasonable and I'm guessing they might be a good DIY project.

Belt squats are a great idea, but they can be trickier to set up than you might imagine. My best advice is to stand on two boxes and to allow the weight to drop between them, like this:

v8nX3AnCFJU

This is the best way to get good depth.

RMBros
02-01-2012, 02:58 AM
I worry that people tend to do stuff with little idea what the risks are, or little idea that they are even putting themselves at risk. There was a BIG push for people to do ATG squats a few years back. It was as if you couldn't make any progress, and you ran the risk of being forced to carry a pink purse (to quote Ox), if you weren't leaving butt marks during a squat session. The problem is that MOST people greatly increase their risk of injury to their lower back when they start to get too deep. For many people "too deep" will actually be a point above parallel, depending on hip mobility. So we encourage people to squat deeper than their body is ready for, for no apparent reason, as squat depth is somewhat an arbitrary ideal for those who have no squat based performance standard.

People have odd ideas about what makes you "hard core" or a man, and they start throwing good sense and risk management out the window. What Alexander Karelin should do for training, and what a middle aged man looking to lose some pounds should do will look VERY different... and largely the BB.com crows seems to ignore this point.



Belt squats are a great idea, but they can be trickier to set up than you might imagine. My best advice is to stand on two boxes and to allow the weight to drop between them, like this:

v8nX3AnCFJU

This is the best way to get good depth.
Liking the train of thought in the first couple of paras - I've been visiting the MMA section too much, so I forget there are people who actually think a few things through before they post/spew illogical bile all over the place.

That set up is about the best I could mentally come up with for Belt Squats, which is why I haven't done them as much as I probably should.

I know that I've seen a station (heaven forbid if I call it a "machine") for Belt Squats, but I haven't ever seen one live and in person - Hell, I'm still waiting to see a real Reverse Hyper or GHR machine live and those would seem to have a ton of benes for the mainstream lifters.

I've been doing a switch-over to OLY lifts (PL gets me over-focused on moving weight and less focused on staying in good cardio shape) and my back is taking a beating while I learn - Belt Squats would seem to be a good leg-building finisher while my weights in the Clean and Snatch are limited by my form. I know my gym is going to hate me even more if I do them though - most of them are already pissed that I use their curl cage for a solid hour working on my legs.

CookAndrewB
02-01-2012, 06:16 AM
I know that I've seen a station (heaven forbid if I call it a "machine") for Belt Squats, but I haven't ever seen one live and in person - Hell, I'm still waiting to see a real Reverse Hyper or GHR machine live and those would seem to have a ton of benes for the mainstream lifters.[/QUOTE

Those "stations" are all very costly, as far as gym floor footprints are concerned. They all take up about as much space as a tread mill, nobody will use them (and those that do will inevitably use them wrong), and should anyone use them right they will be looked at like they have a penis sprouting from their forehead :rolleyes:

This is probably a separate rant, but gym owners tend to be either very good trainers (with no business sense) or very good business people (with no training sense). If you find a gym that knows how to cater to the money making cardio crowd AND the "real" athletes that keep a gym culture alive, never EVER leave :D

[QUOTE=RMBros;824274871]I've been doing a switch-over to OLY lifts (PL gets me over-focused on moving weight and less focused on staying in good cardio shape) and my back is taking a beating while I learn - Belt Squats would seem to be a good leg-building finisher while my weights in the Clean and Snatch are limited by my form. I know my gym is going to hate me even more if I do them though - most of them are already pissed that I use their curl cage for a solid hour working on my legs.

So your "back taking a beating" comment got me thinking... For Oly lifts, the back is in its most vulnerable position starting the first pull from the floor. So when people feel these in their back (to which I am making the grand assumption that you are talking about lower back), it probably indicates that you are pulling too fast from the floor. The pull from floor to just above your knees should be slow; almost slow motion. When you get your upper body upright, as the bar passes your knees, the second pull should be explosive/violent/as fast as you can possibly move. Beginners tend to think of the ENTIRE movement as explosive, and that's not the case at all. The result of a "full movement explosiveness" is that people tend to crank on the bar right off the floor, which is like jerking hard to start a deadlift.

If your back is sore in the traps, that's probably a good sign that you are using your traps to generate pop on the second pull. That's a good thing!

RMBros
02-01-2012, 06:41 AM
Those "stations" are all very costly, as far as gym floor footprints are concerned. They all take up about as much space as a tread mill, nobody will use them (and those that do will inevitably use them wrong), and should anyone use them right they will be looked at like they have a penis sprouting from their forehead :rolleyes:

This is probably a separate rant, but gym owners tend to be either very good trainers (with no business sense) or very good business people (with no training sense). If you find a gym that knows how to cater to the money making cardio crowd AND the "real" athletes that keep a gym culture alive, never EVER leave :D
Yeah - I'll never see a belt squat station unless I build one myself (damn my diy/redneck mind).

RE: gym owners - only one I've ever had that walked the line was a private Personal Trainer/Kick Boxing Instructor/Pro Fighter (ex-pro by the time I quit working with him). He didn't do much as far as weights - just the basics - but he did a great job of keeping prices low for the more advanced crowd by leveraging off of dabblers and resolvers.

Grew his biz from the garage to a studio (ex-motorcycle repair shop - the roll-up doors were great during good weather), but I haven't seen him in a long time.

There's a garage gym here (DFW Metro) that specializes in OLY lifting (Spoon WL Club or somesuch) and I keep meaning to drop those guys a line for some instruction.


So your "back taking a beating" comment got me thinking... For Oly lifts, the back is in its most vulnerable position starting the first pull from the floor. So when people feel these in their back (to which I am making the grand assumption that you are talking about lower back), it probably indicates that you are pulling too fast from the floor. The pull from floor to just above your knees should be slow; almost slow motion. When you get your upper body upright, as the bar passes your knees, the second pull should be explosive/violent/as fast as you can possibly move. Beginners tend to think of the ENTIRE movement as explosive, and that's not the case at all. The result of a "full movement explosiveness" is that people tend to crank on the bar right off the floor, which is like jerking hard to start a deadlift.

If your back is sore in the traps, that's probably a good sign that you are using your traps to generate pop on the second pull. That's a good thing!

Unfortunately, I was sore from neck to tailbone, as if I had been in a rear-end traffic accident. It happened shortly after the first time I tried to do snatches with straps, so I'm wondering if that was a part of the issue - could also be that I over-trained, which would be sad, because I'm not training/running nearly as often as I have in the past. Damn you Father Time!

I've been trying both methods of pulling - fast off the floor then faster from the knees and slow off the floor then fast from the knees. I see both kinds out there, although I guess the elites make even the slow first pull look fast.

Right now, most pain is due to my bad form, not from the weights.

keyboardworkout
02-01-2012, 07:44 AM
Belt squats are a great idea, but they can be trickier to set up than you might imagine. My best advice is to stand on two boxes and to allow the weight to drop between them, like this:


An easy way to set up belt squats is to use a landmine or T-Bar row and attach the chain from your belt to the bar. Would probably work without the landmine by just sticking the end of the bar against the wall with a dumbbell over it.

LW5cgxxHSAc

RMBros
02-01-2012, 08:31 AM
An easy way to set up belt squats is to use a landmine or T-Bar row and attach the chain from your belt to the bar. Would probably work without the landmine by just sticking the end of the bar against the wall with a dumbbell over it.

LW5cgxxHSAc
Damn it, I hate it when I can't come up with something this easy.

I cruised the web looking for easier setups and all I saw that looked promising were a couple of cable variants of the Belt Squat.

I had this whole elaborate plan to build three boxes that would line up around the same height, with the middle one on wheels.

Set the weights on the middle box so it's easy to attach the belt, then stand up.

Push or pull the middle box out of the way (that where it gets tricky, I was thinking about a pole attached to the box) and you are able to do full ROM Belt Squats without having to do the balancing act to get up on the boxes.

Other solutions involved the Hammer Strength BP or Shrug machines.

Now, all I have to do is jam a bar into the corner (with some protection, if I'm feeling nice toward the McGym that day) and I'm set.

Many thanks, even though I was embarrassed by the simplicity of the solution.

Do you think that your orientation would change any of the emphasis of the lift (I'm thinking of something like OLY Squats vs PL Squats)?

You could straddle the bar and face away from the secured/non-weighted end, or you could go to the very end of the bar and face in toward the secured end (I could see some proctology issues there).

Now I'm thinking of ways to do jump squats with this rig rather than a weight on your back - it has been a good BB.com day.

To the OP - sorry about the HiJack!

CookAndrewB
02-02-2012, 11:28 AM
I've been trying both methods of pulling - fast off the floor then faster from the knees and slow off the floor then fast from the knees. I see both kinds out there, although I guess the elites make even the slow first pull look fast.

Right now, most pain is due to my bad form, not from the weights.

The faster you pull from the ground to above your knees, the less you can accelerate the bar during the second pull. Less acceleration = less "pop" on the bar to float it. There are some (maybe not so obvious) limits on how slow/fast these pulls should be, but if you can't add acceleration to the bar during a second pull, you end up with a very fast deadlift/upright row looking thing.

I looked through some vids and I think the "fast pull" is hard to see because it is really just a split second snap.

It literally happens right between :12 and :13 on the first clean in this video

wBZnxbly3so

This is a good video that shows trying to pull too fast off the floor (aside from never getting set on the bar). This guy is strong enough to clean this weight, what he lacks is technique.

7MeNAY94N2s





An easy way to set up belt squats is to use a landmine or T-Bar row and attach the chain from your belt to the bar. Would probably work without the landmine by just sticking the end of the bar against the wall with a dumbbell over it.

LW5cgxxHSAc

That also works :D

I have been thinking about buying a landmine, and this might have given me the final excuse I need to buy one!

RMBros
02-02-2012, 12:16 PM
The faster you pull from the ground to above your knees, the less you can accelerate the bar during the second pull. Less acceleration = less "pop" on the bar to float it. There are some (maybe not so obvious) limits on how slow/fast these pulls should be, but if you can't add acceleration to the bar during a second pull, you end up with a very fast deadlift/upright row looking thing.

I looked through some vids and I think the "fast pull" is hard to see because it is really just a split second snap.

It literally happens right between :12 and :13 on the first clean in this video

Yep - no pop and slow drop for me right now - I'm pretty much doing Power Clean/Front Squat super set right now.

Snatch looks like a wide grip High Pull with an OH Squat and way too much arm pulling.

I'm working with the boys in the OLY section to try to iron things out, but I'm thinking I'll have to go to form sets only on Snatches for a while, just because I'm forcing a lot of stress on my aging/failing shoulders and their questionable stability/flexibility.


This is a good video that shows trying to pull too fast off the floor (aside from never getting set on the bar). This guy is strong enough to clean this weight, what he lacks is technique.

Damn, talk about grip it and rip it!

I'm at least a little more patient than that.

One thing I really liked about the first vid was the guy's ultra smooth drop and the fact that they clearly showed setting up before each rep rather than racing through reps without ever going back to the hook or checking his foot placement.



That also works :D

I have been thinking about buying a landmine, and this might have given me the final excuse I need to buy one!
Check the DIY thread - links to several good ideas for cheapy landmine setups.


Edit - my memory must be going. Revisited the DIY thread and couldn't find anything for LMs.

I found some really elaborate DIY Landmine stuff on a google search, but they were all a little too Rube Goldberg for me.

CookAndrewB
02-02-2012, 02:53 PM
The best thing I did for my Oly lifting was to spend some time working with a local weight lifting club. I had to pay for a pass into the gym where they trained, but the coaching was free.

I mostly dabble in these lifts because they help with strongman, so executing full versions doesn't happen too often (though I have and I can) since it doesn't help and increases the risk of something going pretty wrong (catching a snatch in a full squat doesn't leave a lot of room for errors). I've found that power snatches are very comfortable for me. Hang versions don't thrill me at all, but I understand why some people like them as it removes the first pull worries.

I don't generally sweat spending money to buy equipment for my home gym. I figure that I would otherwise spend something like $400/year for a gym membership if I didn't train at home, so I try to spend at least that much on new equipment every year. That's resulted in a VERY nice home gym. My primary concern these days is that I buy stuff I will use. The Landmine looks awesome, but if I only use it once a month, then why waste the money? I have several "that looks cool" purchases (including a belt squat belt) that haven't found their way into regular rotation in my training, so I'm leery to buy gizmos just to own them. If anything, I would like to sell a good number of the things I've bought just to clear out some clutter. If a landmine allows me to do a lot of things, then I am more likely to routinely use it.

Top of my list for purchases this year will be this:

http://www.muscledriveraus.com/assets/images/sleds/mow1.jpg

and this:

http://www.liftinglarge.com/gluehamraise-homemodel.aspx

RMBros
02-02-2012, 05:26 PM
The best thing I did for my Oly lifting was to spend some time working with a local weight lifting club. I had to pay for a pass into the gym where they trained, but the coaching was free.

I mostly dabble in these lifts because they help with strongman, so executing full versions doesn't happen too often (though I have and I can) since it doesn't help and increases the risk of something going pretty wrong (catching a snatch in a full squat doesn't leave a lot of room for errors). I've found that power snatches are very comfortable for me. Hang versions don't thrill me at all, but I understand why some people like them as it removes the first pull worries.

I don't generally sweat spending money to buy equipment for my home gym. I figure that I would otherwise spend something like $400/year for a gym membership if I didn't train at home, so I try to spend at least that much on new equipment every year. That's resulted in a VERY nice home gym. My primary concern these days is that I buy stuff I will use. The Landmine looks awesome, but if I only use it once a month, then why waste the money? I have several "that looks cool" purchases (including a belt squat belt) that haven't found their way into regular rotation in my training, so I'm leery to buy gizmos just to own them. If anything, I would like to sell a good number of the things I've bought just to clear out some clutter. If a landmine allows me to do a lot of things, then I am more likely to routinely use it.

Top of my list for purchases this year will be this:

http://www.muscledriveraus.com/assets/images/sleds/mow1.jpg

and this:

http://www.liftinglarge.com/gluehamraise-homemodel.aspx

Now I'm all jelly.

That is a sweet sled/prowler.

GHR is on my DIY list, once I catch up on my Honeydew list.

RE the OLYs - I'm learning them more for the dynamic strength than anything else, but the last time I tried to learn Power Cleans, I did a pisspoor job and didn't see a lot of gains- which meant I didn't stick with them.

I figured the fix was to learn the entire lifts and pare them back down to the portions that I felt benefited me the most (shoulder, back, and trunk work are a great side bene).

I also thought that the deep front squats and OH squats would benefit my ability to move/explode from a crouch, which should help in sand volleyball and MMA (hopefully getting back into it soon) - general GPP stuff as well.

So far, Snatches have been pretty daunting, but I can feel where they're going to strengthen a lot of shoulder, back, and core when I work up on the weights. Patience vs ego at this point.

Cleans are a bit more satisfying weight-wise, but more frustrating because my courage is holding me back more than my form.

I'm hoping to hook up with the club I mentioned, but, as you can probably tell, I've got a ton of good ideas and intentions but my follow-through could use a bit of work.

tidnab
03-10-2012, 10:32 PM
For GHRs I find all you really need is a dumbbell rack (with dumbbells on it obviously) and a bench. Pretty easy to set up at most gyms.

zedx
03-10-2012, 11:28 PM
I can't do them. They totally hurt my arms to the point i ask myself why would anyone do these.