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snorkelman
01-26-2012, 11:06 AM
Here is the abstract for a recent study looking at slightly overweight guys drinking milk vs. whey vs. casein:

Eur J Clin Nutr. 2012 Jan 25. doi: 10.1038/ejcn.2011.221. [Epub ahead of print]
The effect of milk proteins on appetite regulation and diet-induced thermogenesis.
Lorenzen J, Frederiksen R, Hoppe C, Hvid R, Astrup A.
Source

Department of Human Nutrition, Centre for Advanced Food Studies, Faculty of Life Sciences, University of Copenhagen, Frederiksberg, Denmark.
Abstract

Background/objectives:There is increasing evidence to support that a high-protein diet may promote weight loss and prevent weight (re)gain better than a low-protein diet, and that the effect is due to higher diet-induced thermogenesis (DIT) and increased satiety. However, data on the effect of different types of protein are limited. In the present study we compare the effect of whey, casein and milk on DIT and satiety.

Subjects/methods:Seventeen slightly overweight (294 kg/m(2)) male subjects completed the study. The study had a randomized, crossover design, where the effect on 4 h postprandial energy expenditure (EE), substrate oxidation and subjective appetite sensation of three isocaloric test meals containing either a whey drink, a casein drink or skim milk was examined. Energy intake (EI) at a subsequent ad libitum lunch was also measured.Results:There was no significant effect on subjective appetite sensation, but EI at lunch was lower after the milk test meal than after the casein (9%; P=0.0260) and the whey (9%; P=0.0258) test meals. Postprandial lipid oxidation was significantly higher after the casein test meal compared with the whey test meal (P=0.0147) when adjusted for baseline values. There was no significant difference in effect on EE, protein oxidation or carbohydrate oxidation.

Conclusions:Milk reduced subsequent EI more than isocaloric drinks containing only whey or casein. A small but significant increase in lipid oxidation was seen after casein compared with whey.

European Journal of Clinical Nutrition advance online publication, 25 January 2012; doi:10.1038/ejcn.2011.221.

PMID:
22274550

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22274550

SimonThePieman
01-26-2012, 12:09 PM
Here is the abstract for a recent study looking at slightly overweight guys drinking milk vs. whey vs. casein:

Eur J Clin Nutr. 2012 Jan 25. doi: 10.1038/ejcn.2011.221. [Epub ahead of print]
The effect of milk proteins on appetite regulation and diet-induced thermogenesis.
Lorenzen J, Frederiksen R, Hoppe C, Hvid R, Astrup A.
Source

Department of Human Nutrition, Centre for Advanced Food Studies, Faculty of Life Sciences, University of Copenhagen, Frederiksberg, Denmark.
Abstract

Background/objectives:There is increasing evidence to support that a high-protein diet may promote weight loss and prevent weight (re)gain better than a low-protein diet, and that the effect is due to higher diet-induced thermogenesis (DIT) and increased satiety. However, data on the effect of different types of protein are limited. In the present study we compare the effect of whey, casein and milk on DIT and satiety.

Subjects/methods:Seventeen slightly overweight (294 kg/m(2)) male subjects completed the study. The study had a randomized, crossover design, where the effect on 4 h postprandial energy expenditure (EE), substrate oxidation and subjective appetite sensation of three isocaloric test meals containing either a whey drink, a casein drink or skim milk was examined. Energy intake (EI) at a subsequent ad libitum lunch was also measured.Results:There was no significant effect on subjective appetite sensation, but EI at lunch was lower after the milk test meal than after the casein (9%; P=0.0260) and the whey (9%; P=0.0258) test meals. Postprandial lipid oxidation was significantly higher after the casein test meal compared with the whey test meal (P=0.0147) when adjusted for baseline values. There was no significant difference in effect on EE, protein oxidation or carbohydrate oxidation.

Conclusions:Milk reduced subsequent EI more than isocaloric drinks containing only whey or casein. A small but significant increase in lipid oxidation was seen after casein compared with whey.

European Journal of Clinical Nutrition advance online publication, 25 January 2012; doi:10.1038/ejcn.2011.221.

PMID:
22274550

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22274550



I don't want to be rude. But this is classical example of how people are mislead by pubmeds.

The sample size is 17.

Split into 3 groups is less than 6 each.

I hope no one would really believe that is a reliable testing pool.

All it would take is one person to consciously or subconsciously eat less calories through the process to skew the results.

People need to be more critical about pubmeds

ninjasquat
01-26-2012, 12:26 PM
Yeah I pretty much stopped reading when I saw the word Seventeen.

PerpetualMotion
01-26-2012, 12:36 PM
subconsciously

"If someone talks of subconsciousness, I cannot tell whether he means the term topographically to indicate something lying in the mind beneath consciousness or qualitatively to indicate another consciousness, a subterranean one, as it were. He is probably not clear about any of it. The only trustworthy antithesis is between conscious and unconscious."

;) And, no, I'm not a psych major.

As a side note, while I do agree, there are almost always plenty of shortcomings in a ton of studies. It's simply not feasible to have the "perfect" study but I do understand your issues with said study.

Either way, I don't know why anyone (who isn't lactose intolerant) would cut out milk. I always have it with my whey. Easy carbs and protein, man.

snorkelman
01-26-2012, 12:43 PM
I don't want to be rude. But this is classical example of how people are mislead by pubmeds.

The sample size is 17.

Split into 3 groups is less than 6 each.

I hope no one would really believe that is a reliable testing pool.


Pieman, the article was e-published yesterday. I have not read the full text, have you? From the abstract we can see that although there were 17 subjects, the study utilized a randomized, crossover design. That helps to lower the variability between individual subjects. In these type of studies, it is typical to have small sample sizes. In a perfect world we'd have thousands of people studied, but the reality is that small sample sizes are pretty typical. However, using a crossover design minimizes the statistical limitations. I never claimed that this study was designed perfectly, as I believe that every study will have some limitations.

I'd love to read the full text, but I figured that at least the abstract will create a talking point as many people cutting use whey in place of milk.

SimonThePieman
01-26-2012, 12:49 PM
Pieman, the article was e-published yesterday. I have not read the full text, have you? From the abstract we can see that although there were 17 subjects, the study utilized a randomized, crossover design. That helps to lower the variability between individual subjects. In these type of studies, it is typical to have small sample sizes. In a perfect world we'd have thousands of people studied, but the reality is that small sample sizes are pretty typical. However, using a crossover design minimizes the statistical limitations. I never claimed that this study was designed perfectly, as I believe that every study will have some limitations.

I'd love to read the full text, but I figured that at least the abstract will create a talking point as many people cutting use whey in place of milk.

From the abstract i came to my own hypothesis, further reading would be a waste of time..

Correct though. Small sample sizes are common. Test subjects are normally the most unreliable type (fat people ;)) and have too little control on other factors that may affect results.

Whilst that can show some indicative informations. Most tests with such shoddy control variables and sample sizes are unreliable.

I do appreciate you bring this to our attention though, I'm not trying to be a complete arse, I promise

canadiancoops
01-26-2012, 12:53 PM
I drink half a liter of milk a day - my cutting goes great.

snorkelman
01-26-2012, 01:15 PM
I do appreciate you bring this to our attention though, I'm not trying to be a complete arse, I promise

Honestly the first thing I thought of was the basic concept of pre-loading. It has been shown effective when using even just water.

See, Water consumption reduces energy intake at a breakfast meal in obese older adults. Davy BM, Dennis EA, Dengo AL, Wilson KL, Davy KP. J Am Diet Assoc. 2008 Jul;108(7):1236-9. PMID: 18589036, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2743119/?tool=pubmed

See also, Pre-meal water consumption reduces meal energy intake in older but not younger subjects.
Van Walleghen EL, Orr JS, Gentile CL, Davy BM. Obesity (Silver Spring). 2007 Jan;15(1):93-9.
PMID: 17228036 Article available at: http://www.nature.com/oby/journal/v15/n1/full/oby2007506a.html

MikeK46
01-26-2012, 01:36 PM
I don't exclude anything on a cut, seeing as how it's not specific foods that determine weight loss but rather the caloric deficit.