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mandotony
01-24-2012, 11:00 AM
I'm changing up my workouts and was curious how often I should try for my max weight (1 rep) - mainly for squats & bench. The last month or so, I've been going to max about every other workout (once a week). I'm seeing decent gains - but am thinking that might be too much.

Also, for the days I don't go to my max - how heavy do you go? Right now I do about 80% of my max weight on those days. Too much? Too little?

FYI - I work out twice a week (most muscle groups each time - different exercises).

ezra76
01-24-2012, 11:46 AM
Once in a while I max out on deadlifts but that's it. I started out 5x5 now alternate 5x5 and 5x10 every other workout. My brother likes to max out every time he works out but hasn't made any progress in years really. I've surpassed in every major lift despite being at a 50lb. disadvantage to him.

This calculator http://www.exrx.net/Calculators/OneRepMax.html is what I use to figure out reps. So if you were to do your 80% of max and your max was say 225lbs., you'd want to be doing 8 reps at 180. If my max were 225 on a lift I'd be doing 195x5 and 170x10 on the 5x10 workouts.

bigtallox
01-24-2012, 12:31 PM
I'm changing up my workouts and was curious how often I should try for my max weight (1 rep) - mainly for squats & bench. The last month or so, I've been going to max about every other workout (once a week). I'm seeing decent gains - but am thinking that might be too much.

Also, for the days I don't go to my max - how heavy do you go? Right now I do about 80% of my max weight on those days. Too much? Too little?

FYI - I work out twice a week (most muscle groups each time - different exercises).

It depends on your goals. When I was powerlifting, I'd max out on bench, squats and deads once a week. But now that I compete in strongman don't care about my 1 rep max nearly as much, so I max out much less often. As for your question about what to do when you don't go heavy, research "dynamic effort".

Old-Time-Lifter
01-24-2012, 12:48 PM
Almost never. Really don't intend to try for a single rep max on anything anymore. It's pointless for my goals and involves the chance for injury.

ironwill2008
01-24-2012, 01:13 PM
I'm changing up my workouts and was curious how often I should try for my max weight (1 rep) - mainly for squats & bench. The last month or so, I've been going to max about every other workout (once a week). I'm seeing decent gains - but am thinking that might be too much.

Also, for the days I don't go to my max - how heavy do you go? Right now I do about 80% of my max weight on those days. Too much? Too little?

FYI - I work out twice a week (most muscle groups each time - different exercises).

What do you hope to gain by doing this (1-rep max) at all, much less every week?

Are you training specifically for strength?

Marius_Ursus
01-24-2012, 01:16 PM
I lift to a 1RM of whatever my main exercise I'm training that day is every time I lift.

TouaregV8
01-24-2012, 01:23 PM
What do you hope to gain by doing this

Bragging rights at the company water cooler.

lightingbird
01-24-2012, 01:27 PM
The OP read my thoughts.

I was just thinking about posting the exact same question. My question was for weight lifting in general. So you should only try to press past your max once a week? Is there a set goal you should aim for? For example, if my max for open curls is 10 at 45lb dumbbells. Should I go for 12? Can you try to push past your limit every workout?

mandotony
01-24-2012, 01:28 PM
What do you hope to gain by doing this (1-rep max) at all, much less every week?

Are you training specifically for strength?

Correct - my body goals are to max my strength/size. However, I don't want to do this at the expense of injury. Which is why I was looking to maybe do fewer 1RM days. Hell - seems like half the old guys at my gym don't bench anymore since they now have shoulder issues.

Also, thanks for the advice on dynamic training. I've done some initial searches and there's a lot for me to take in. On first look, it looks like something I may want to try.

BrotherWolf
01-24-2012, 01:45 PM
I do it once a week or every 2 weeks .. the frequency depends on
many factors most important what kind of program you're doing

BrotherWolf
01-24-2012, 01:48 PM
1RM doesn't lead to injuries ... fatigue, bad form and stupidity do
high volume at lighter weight is more dangerous than lower volume at near max weight

Smelly bull
01-24-2012, 02:05 PM
once every 3 months or so...

ironwill2008
01-24-2012, 02:32 PM
Hell - seems like half the old guys at my gym don't bench anymore since they now have shoulder issues.

You may have at least partially answered your own question here.









1RM doesn't lead to injuries ... fatigue, bad form and stupidity do

I agree with this if we're talking about experienced trainees.






Bragging rights at the company water cooler.
Lulz.

GeneC3
01-24-2012, 02:33 PM
1RM doesn't lead to injuries ... fatigue, bad form and stupidity do
high volume at lighter weight is more dangerous than lower volume at near max weight
Well said.. I max 1 a month and deload the week after but It s a good tool to train by precentages.

x-trainer ben
01-24-2012, 02:49 PM
Correct - my body goals are to max my strength/size. However, I don't want to do this at the expense of injury. Which is why I was looking to maybe do fewer 1RM days. Hell - seems like half the old guys at my gym don't bench anymore since they now have shoulder issues.

Also, thanks for the advice on dynamic training. I've done some initial searches and there's a lot for me to take in. On first look, it looks like something I may want to try.

Once a week seems to often to me unless you are genetic freak that sets PR's often? There are very few of those but maybe they exist.

What is more realistic is once a month; you just know when it is a good day to try it.

zanak74
01-24-2012, 03:30 PM
I tend to max out every week. This has lead to good gains over the years. I also make sure that my rest is optimized.

plumher
01-24-2012, 03:50 PM
Almost never. Really don't intend to try for a single rep max on anything anymore. It's pointless for my goals and involves the chance for injury.

QFT. really no reason to for me as well. I cant remember the last time I 'maxed out'

Tommy W.
01-24-2012, 04:29 PM
Once a week I'll do 4 ramp sets of 3 reps each all the way to max then drop down to 3 working sets. This is for compounds only

Getsum
01-25-2012, 06:34 AM
Currently, I have a heavy week once a month and I try to get a couple max attempts in that week. I'm doing Wendler's 5/3/1 http://www.strstd.com/ and it's a strength program.

I've delt with shoulder issues on and off for years but since I tweaked my bench setup using a narrower grip and started keeping my elbows tucked in, I've been benching pain free. Feels great.

I'm still keeping my upright rows and side laterals light but my shoulder really has been feeling great. The narrower grip is also feeling really good on my inclines and shoulder presses.

zedx
01-25-2012, 06:59 AM
Maxing out is really fun and has revived my boring bodybuilding routines as a teen.

Yes, I got tired of the 6-12 rep stuff. And I'm quite enjoying the powerlifting side.

The last 2 times i deadlifted I did each session a 1 rep max. And I increased it 20 pounds the second day in.

In general I would say I like to max on certain muscle groups 1 or 3 times a month. It just depends how strong I feel.

When I maxed on that deadlift my hands could hardly hold the weight. That taught me something right there I would have never known if I stayed light. I need to get my grip up to speed.

-=FLEX=-
01-25-2012, 07:04 AM
How often to try max weight

As others have already said it's going to depend on your goals.

I just removed barbell press from my routine due to shoulder issues, so the only thing I will be doing 1-rep max attempts on is Deads and Squats, and that is because I train mainly for strength on those two lifts. I go to my max every time I do them.

Every other exercise I try to do a minimum of 6 reps per set.

And did I read correct that you only lift twice a week?

CookAndrewB
01-25-2012, 07:31 AM
I disagree that 1RM is as safe as sub maximal lifting. By the very nature of the event, it places abnormal stress on the body that can (and do) cause injury at a higher rate than someone using a lesser % of their max. If you were going to drive over a bridge, do you think it would be safer to take a load across that was 80% of the structural capacity, or 100%? Your body is no different. When you are talking load and leverage, you can generate significantly higher forces by being slightly out of position on something like a deadlift or squat.

You can argue that focus and fatigue are non-factors for a trained lifter, but I've seen plenty of great lifters get injured in meets and in training. Thinking that you are better than that is like thinking you can beat the odds at a casino. You might win a little, but the odds are ALWAYS in favor of the house, if you play enough.

There are some compelling reasons to try a max effort lift. Competition being the best one that I can think of. If that is the performance measure, then you have to practice like you play. I know some people scoffed at "bragging rights" but I don't find this to be any less valid of a reason than competition. Hell, we compete to measure ourselves against our peers. That is human nature and has some value, even around the water cooler at work. ;)

For most of us, the risk/reward of max effort training weighs in too heavy on the risk side. I "go heavy" once a week on all my lifts, but I know this isn't a max effort, and that I always have something left in the tank. I train for strength, so that makes sense. If I was 50+ and training for general health, I doubt I would ever bother.

bigtallox
01-25-2012, 07:57 AM
I disagree that 1RM is as safe as sub maximal lifting. By the very nature of the event, it places abnormal stress on the body that can (and do) cause injury at a higher rate than someone using a lesser % of their max.


Every injury I've seen happen, except one, happened with submaximal weights.

Getsum
01-25-2012, 07:58 AM
Yeah, I don't know. I've been lifting off and on since my early teens and the worst injury I've ever experienced was a pulled trap muscle. I've twisted my ankles playing baseball, football and tennis. Twisted my knee blaying basketball, tweaked my back and sciatic nerve doing yard work. Can't even beginning to tell you how many times I've eaten it riding BMX or dirt bikes back in the day.

If your thing is strength training or powerlifting, then pursue it and be smart about it. Those safety bars are there for a reason. You should have a pretty damn good idea what your max is before you attempt it. Don't just slap a bunch a weight on it without any clue as to where your currently at. I'd rather take a few risks than live a life of regret.

BrotherWolf
01-25-2012, 08:11 AM
I agree with this if we're talking about experienced trainees.


Of course ;)

newbs lifting 1RM... how heavy can they be lifting ?

sprains .. can happen when you're cold regardless of how much weight is on the bar, all of my "injuries" were always caused by repetition never during a max attempt
I've had RC partial tear in my left shoulder caused by pressing but not during a max attempt , tennis/golfer's elbow , patellar tendinitis, pulled groin and torn my calf kick starting my old harley

real injuries unfortunately happen in any competitive sport , weightlifting already has a low rate of injuries compared to other sports
and issues like tendinitis , inflammations etc.. those are caused by repetitive movements not by intensity but by accumulated stress

CardinalRB34
01-25-2012, 08:41 AM
I never max out.. or I should say rarely. My goals are simply to add muscle mass. The rep ranges I have found to be best, for most people in general, are 8-12... sometimes as heavy as 6 reps or as light as 15-20... but most of the time it's 8-12. Once in a blue moon I may feel good enough to test my strength and lift for a double, but it's very rare that a single is done.

CardinalRB34
01-25-2012, 08:50 AM
The OP read my thoughts.

I was just thinking about posting the exact same question. My question was for weight lifting in general. So you should only try to press past your max once a week? Is there a set goal you should aim for? For example, if my max for open curls is 10 at 45lb dumbbells. Should I go for 12? Can you try to push past your limit every workout?

Yes.. you should try to progressively overload. If you do the 45's for 10 one week, and get 12 the next week.. you may want to try the 50's for 8-10 the following.

No... you may not improve your workload EVERY week. Sometimes a plateau is hit and it sucks. But you should continue to try to progressively overload via more reps with the same weight, you can force a couple of reps at the end of a set - just don't go overboard with forcing them.

The thread pertains more toward a 1 rep max, which should be a rare lift unless you have a specific goal you need to accomplish or are a competitive athlete...

hammerfelt
01-25-2012, 08:55 AM
Rarely test 1 rep max.

I view 1 rep max testing as a wasted workout where I could have been making further progress on linear progression instead.

eyeswideshut23
01-25-2012, 08:57 AM
Since ive been training for mma, i dont max out ever. That one rep maxing is pointless for mma. But i uses to max like once a month.

lightingbird
01-25-2012, 08:58 AM
Ok thanks.

ezra76
01-25-2012, 08:59 AM
I see some guys say they max out once a week? So that's every workout, unless you are working out 7days a week?

The big reason I stay away from max out's is they will burn you out. You could have gotten a productive 5 sets, 25 rep volume workout but now you've shot your wad on a max out and no matter what the volume is, the intensity will suffer.

Kodokan
01-25-2012, 09:02 AM
I don't do 1RM's at all...however, the workout I'm following does go to a 5 or 3 rep max every workout, and then rotates to similar max effort lifts when I hit a wall two weeks in a row.

Once that stops working I'll be switching to 3 and 1 reps...but there's still a difference in how I approach it in that I take smaller jumps working up, which I guess would just make it a training max and not a true max.

I don't compete, so don't see the need to test a true 1RM.

The idea behind what I'm following now is the 'meathead' version of:
http://www.defrancostraining.com/articles/38-articles/65-westside-for-skinny-bastards-part3.html

There's an ocean of interesting reading out there about setting up ways of 'maxing' out every week, but really they're still doing 'training' maxes from what I understand and not necessarily an 'all time max'.
http://westside-barbell.com/westside-articles/PDF.Files/04PDF/The%20Conjugate%20Method.pdf

The general idea about avoiding burnout is to rotate your main lift before that happens (like 3 weeks or less), and also possibly rotating going for a 1RM or a 3RM based on how you feel or maybe even on a schedule...I'm starting with 5's and 3's though and will probably keep doing that for a while to come.

Bladerunner1811
01-25-2012, 09:10 AM
I'm changing up my workouts and was curious how often I should try for my max weight (1 rep) - mainly for squats & bench. The last month or so, I've been going to max about every other workout (once a week). I'm seeing decent gains - but am thinking that might be too much.

Also, for the days I don't go to my max - how heavy do you go? Right now I do about 80% of my max weight on those days. Too much? Too little?
FYI - I work out twice a week (most muscle groups each time - different exercises).

I suggest the tried and true method of once a month at the end of the month:)

BrotherWolf
01-25-2012, 10:38 AM
I see some guys say they max out once a week? So that's every workout, unless you are working out 7days a week?

The big reason I stay away from max out's is they will burn you out. You could have gotten a productive 5 sets, 25 rep volume workout but now you've shot your wad on a max out and no matter what the volume is, the intensity will suffer.
How can you say the intensity will suffer , going 1RM is as intense as one can go
you can argue that volume might suffer not intensity

The whole point is to "burn out" and cause adaptation so you can get bigger and stronger

and it's not every workout it's once a week , so for example I do 3 days full body the last day usually friday is a max or near max day

Oceanside
01-25-2012, 10:57 AM
Rarely test 1 rep max.

I view 1 rep max testing as a wasted workout where I could have been making further progress on linear progression instead.

should be no reason why you can't pyrmid up in weight and find your 1rm for that given day and then work higher rep sets afterwards unless you lose your will (for the day) to lift..

one clean rep at or around your 1 rm is always gonna be better (strengthwise) than all the multiple reps sets you do before or after it..


it's along the lines of the whole less is more thing !

-=FLEX=-
01-25-2012, 11:02 AM
The big reason I stay away from max out's is they will burn you out. You could have gotten a productive 5 sets, 25 rep volume workout but now you've shot your wad on a max out and no matter what the volume is, the intensity will suffer.

You're making HUGE assumptions with this statement.

Lots of times on the big 3 lifts I've gone up to my max then done a 5 x 5 or even a 6 x 6 afterwards. And thanks to the CNS adaptation, the weight used was more than if I had just worked my way up to 5 reps then stayed there.

Pushing oneself has tremendous benefits and if you don't think pulling a 5 x 5 at 400+ lbs is intense after pulling a 500+ lb max on deadlifts then I strongly urge you to try it and get back to us with your results.

:)

Oceanside
01-25-2012, 11:07 AM
.

Lots of times on the big 3 lifts I've gone up to my max then done a 5 x 5 or even a 6 x 6 afterwards. And thanks to the CNS adaptation, the weight used was more than if I had just worked my way up to 5 reps then stayed there.

:)

absolutely !

Getsum
01-25-2012, 11:10 AM
should be no reason why you can't pyrmid up in weight and find your 1rm for that given day and then work higher rep sets afterwards unless you lose your will (for the day) to lift..

one clean rep at or around your 1 rm is always gonna be better (strengthwise) than all the multiple reps sets you do before or after it..


it's along the lines of the whole less is more thing !


You're making HUGE assumptions with this statement.

Lots of times on the big 3 lifts I've gone up to my max then done a 5 x 5 or even a 6 x 6 afterwards. And thanks to the CNS adaptation, the weight used was more than if I had just worked my way up to 5 reps then stayed there.

Pushing oneself has tremendous benefits and if you don't think pulling a 5 x 5 at 400+ lbs is intense after pulling a 500+ lb max on deadlifts then I strongly urge you to try it and get back to us with your results.

:)

Yep, either of these work great to get your volume in and I'm usually feeling pretty damn good after a new PR so there's no loss of will either.

Oceanside
01-25-2012, 11:21 AM
The big reason I stay away from max out's is they will burn you out. You could have gotten a productive 5 sets, 25 rep volume workout but now you've shot your wad on a max out and no matter what the volume is, the intensity will suffer.

if a one rep max burns you out for even a set of a five by five program ( and I'm assuming you're talking about a 5x5 program because I'd hate to think I'm even quoting you if you're talking about 5 sets of 25 reps ....not totally sure to be honest) then you're 5x5 weight was too heavy to begin with :)

Marius_Ursus
01-25-2012, 11:24 AM
You're making HUGE assumptions with this statement.

Lots of times on the big 3 lifts I've gone up to my max then done a 5 x 5 or even a 6 x 6 afterwards. And thanks to the CNS adaptation, the weight used was more than if I had just worked my way up to 5 reps then stayed there.

Pushing oneself has tremendous benefits and if you don't think pulling a 5 x 5 at 400+ lbs is intense after pulling a 500+ lb max on deadlifts then I strongly urge you to try it and get back to us with your results.

:)


absolutely !


Yep, either of these work great to get your volume in and I'm usually feeling pretty damn good after a new PR so there's no loss of will either.


if a one rep max burns you out for even a set of a five by five program ( and I'm assuming you're talking about a 5x5 program because I'd hate to think I'm even quoting you if you're talking about 5 sets of 25 reps ....not totally sure to be honest) than you're 5x5 weight was too heavy to begin with :)

Exactly. Lifting to that daily 1RM then lifting percentages of that 1RM after you reach it is a sure way to keep the strength moving up, and the preload makes the sets after you hit the 1RM feel a lot lighter.

CookAndrewB
01-25-2012, 11:41 AM
Every injury I've seen happen, except one, happened with submaximal weights.

What were the outcomes of these injuries?

I'll admit that I've seen a lot of minor aches inflamation etc from repetition work. So maybe there is greater occurrance of issues in this type of training, but the severity I've seen in max effort stuff tends to be pretty nasty. I would gladly take a "rest/ice/elevate" injury over a "surgery and physical therapy" injury.

Either way, there are some benefits and some drawbacks. It is for each person to make the decision how they will train, and then make peace with the consequences of their decision.

ezra76
01-25-2012, 12:17 PM
You're making HUGE assumptions with this statement.

Lots of times on the big 3 lifts I've gone up to my max then done a 5 x 5 or even a 6 x 6 afterwards. And thanks to the CNS adaptation, the weight used was more than if I had just worked my way up to 5 reps then stayed there.

Pushing oneself has tremendous benefits and if you don't think pulling a 5 x 5 at 400+ lbs is intense after pulling a 500+ lb max on deadlifts then I strongly urge you to try it and get back to us with your results.

:)

Do you know what your 5x5 weight is supposed to be though? These aren't just random weights. For the same intensity as 1 rep at 500 the 5reps are supposed to be at 435. If you can get 500x1, then 435x5x5, great, time to add 10-15lbs. next workout, you conquered it.

I don't know, maybe it works for some people. I add 5lbs. about every other workout on 5x5 and make progress. My brother tries to max out every workout and his bench is the same as it was 2yrs. ago. I guess if you guys are lifting more than you did last workout, or at least 2-3, it's working.

Marius_Ursus
01-25-2012, 12:21 PM
Do you know what your 5x5 weight is supposed to be though? These aren't just random weights. For the same intensity as 1 rep at 500 the 5reps are supposed to be at 435. If you can get 500x1, then 435x5x5, great, time to add 10-15lbs. next workout, you conquered it.

I don't know, maybe it works for some people. I add 5lbs. about every other workout on 5x5 and make progress. My brother tries to max out every workout and his bench is the same as it was 2yrs. ago. I guess if you guys are lifting more than you did last workout, or at least 2-3, it's working.

Work it out as percentages. The percentages vary by individual. My own program runs slightly different where I don't use sets at all but keep going until I hit 30 reps. Every time I hit failure, I move down 5% or more depending on how much I feel is left in the tank.

ezra76
01-25-2012, 12:29 PM
How can you say the intensity will suffer , going 1RM is as intense as one can go
you can argue that volume might suffer not intensity

The whole point is to "burn out" and cause adaptation so you can get bigger and stronger

and it's not every workout it's once a week , so for example I do 3 days full body the last day usually friday is a max or near max day

Ok got you. My routine only has me doing each compound once a week. So for me once a week would be every workout.

-=FLEX=-
01-25-2012, 12:32 PM
Do you know what your 5x5 weight is supposed to be though? These aren't just random weights. For the same intensity as 1 rep at 500 the 5reps are supposed to be at 435. If you can get 500x1, then 435x5x5, great, time to add 10-15lbs. next workout, you conquered it.

I don't know, maybe it works for some people. I add 5lbs. about every other workout on 5x5 and make progress. My brother tries to max out every workout and his bench is the same as it was 2yrs. ago. I guess if you guys are lifting more than you did last workout, or at least 2-3, it's working.

I'm not on any type of program so my 5 x 5 weight is not supposed to be anything.

And if you are steadily adding 5 lbs per week then I am guessing you are relatively new, because that won't last unless you are sandbagging.

My first deadlift workout I pulled 315, 4 weeks later I pulled 405, 6 months later I pulled 495, 5 months later I pulled 545. Progression is not linear.

hammerfelt
01-25-2012, 12:34 PM
should be no reason why you can't pyrmid up in weight and find your 1rm for that given day and then work higher rep sets afterwards unless you lose your will (for the day) to lift..

one clean rep at or around your 1 rm is always gonna be better (strengthwise) than all the multiple reps sets you do before or after it..


it's along the lines of the whole less is more thing !

I rarely go above 5 reps as it is.

I would also think the amount of your 1 rep max would make a big difference. The most I have ever squatted is 300 kilos, but I have never tested my one rep max on squat.

To take it to more of an extreme; Do you think Andy Bolton can dead lift a 1000+lbs every week or even once a month?

BrotherWolf
01-25-2012, 12:41 PM
What were the outcomes of these injuries?

I'll admit that I've seen a lot of minor aches inflamation etc from repetition work. So maybe there is greater occurrance of issues in this type of training, but the severity I've seen in max effort stuff tends to be pretty nasty. I would gladly take a "rest/ice/elevate" injury over a "surgery and physical therapy" injury.


are you talking about the occasional torn muscle/tendons?? other than that what kind of injuries are you talking about ?

you're more likely to injure yourself doing cardio then doing max lifts
obviously we are not talking about some dude who's never squatted and put 600lb on the bar and get crushed by it
if you are reasonably trained a 1rm attempt is not dangerous
now if strength isn't your goal it's a different thing , obviously it's not necessary to test your strength ever

BrotherWolf
01-25-2012, 12:44 PM
Ok got you. My routine only has me doing each compound once a week. So for me once a week would be every workout.

but you don't work out only once a week right ? you're just talking compounds
if you are doing a split 1rm attempt might be every 2 weeks or month some people don't even attempt any until before a meet
but they train at very high intensity throughout the year

BrotherWolf
01-25-2012, 12:46 PM
My brother tries to max out every workout and his bench is the same as it was 2yrs. ago. I guess if you guys are lifting more than you did last workout, or at least 2-3, it's working.

progress eventually slows down and even stops or we would all bench 1000lbs after a few years ;)

BrotherWolf
01-25-2012, 12:51 PM
My first deadlift workout I pulled 315, 4 weeks later I pulled 405, 6 months later I pulled 495, 5 months later I pulled 545. Progression is not linear.

If you're a novice lifter it is linear, once you are no longer making linear progression you are an intermediate, after this phase you become advanced that can last years and progress comes whenever if any at all

Getsum
01-25-2012, 01:02 PM
I don't know but I think I'm starting to see people's reluctance to max:

http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd371/flintdb68/daily_gifdump_75_06.gif

ezra76
01-25-2012, 01:07 PM
I'm not on any type of program so my 5 x 5 weight is not supposed to be anything.

And if you are steadily adding 5 lbs per week then I am guessing you are relatively new, because that won't last unless you are sandbagging.

My first deadlift workout I pulled 315, 4 weeks later I pulled 405, 6 months later I pulled 495, 5 months later I pulled 545. Progression is not linear.

I'm not that new, just cut last spring now bulking back up. I've started to slow down in progress so now 5x5 one workout then 5x10 the next with the 10rep weight equivilant to previous workout's 5x5 to maintain the intensity.

Anyway, this whole thing is the same "agruement" I have with my brother all the time. As soon as he warms up, he wants to max out and burns himself out. So he ends up getting less reps than he should in "working set" weights because he's burnt out from his max. Next thing you know he's done his whole workout and only gotten a grand total of a dozen reps. Rinse and repeat and that's why he's the same bodyweight doing the same weight in every lift as he has for a long time.

-=FLEX=-
01-25-2012, 01:22 PM
Anyway, this whole thing is the same "agruement" I have with my brother all the time. As soon as he warms up, he wants to max out and burns himself out. So he ends up getting less reps than he should in "working set" weights because he's burnt out from his max. Next thing you know he's done his whole workout and only gotten a grand total of a dozen reps. Rinse and repeat and that's why he's the same bodyweight doing the same weight in every lift as he has for a long time.

He does that on every exercise?

As I said I only do 1RM on the big 3 and I have a planned progression to my 1RM and also work back down. And it works. I just got a 505 squat two weeks ago after training for 2 years and doing a 1RM nearly every squat workout.

There are a myriad of reasons why your brother may or may not be progressing, so don't focus on 1 aspect of his training style and attempt to explain all of his results based on that, and then try to use that (erroneous) conclusion as a basis to make some blanket statement about a particular training technique/style.

Because around here that's what we call "broscience"...

ezra76
01-25-2012, 01:35 PM
He does that on every exercise?

As I said I only do 1RM on the big 3 and I have a planned progression to my 1RM and also work back down. And it works. I just got a 505 squat two weeks ago after training for 2 years and doing a 1RM nearly every squat workout.

There are a myriad of reasons why your brother may or may not be progressing, so don't focus on 1 aspect of his training style and attempt to explain all of his results based on that, and then try to use that (erroneous) conclusion as a basis to make some blanket statement about a particular training technique/style.

Because around here that's what we call "broscience"...

Yeah, he starts at a max and then can't get the reps he should be getting on working sets.

I can't handle a max out then get what I'm supposed to get for weight/reps. Also "intensity" is a number and when I say "supposed to get" there is a number for each rep to make it "as intense" as a higher or lower amount of reps. My whole thing is if I max out, I'm trading that 1 intense rep for what could have been more reps at an equally intense but lesser weight. I don't know, maybe I can cut my gym time down by just going in and doing 5 sets of 1 rep and out the door ; ).

-=FLEX=-
01-25-2012, 01:53 PM
I don't know, maybe I can cut my gym time down by just going in and doing 5 sets of 1 rep and out the door ; ).

Strong sarcasm.

No one here was suggesting you do that; in fact quite the opposite.

You can continue to base all of your bodybuilding knowledge on your observations of your brother, or you could read more around here (especially in the journals) and open your mind.

ezra76
01-25-2012, 02:54 PM
How can you say the intensity will suffer , going 1RM is as intense as one can go
you can argue that volume might suffer not intensity

The whole point is to "burn out" and cause adaptation so you can get bigger and stronger

and it's not every workout it's once a week , so for example I do 3 days full body the last day usually friday is a max or near max day

Ok, I let this soak in and starting to get it. So if I were to go up to a max for 1 "set" that should only effect volume?

I'm wondering if I could or rather "should" be able to hit a max for set and just adjust reps/weight to make up the volume? So if I'm working with say 205x5 right now for a lift I could go to 195x6x2 then 230x1 then back to 195x6x2 and it should be the same as 205x5x5?

Oceanside
01-25-2012, 03:56 PM
To take it to more of an extreme; Do you think Andy Bolton can dead lift a 1000+lbs every week or even once a month?

you've got a point !

and the only answer i would give is that 99% + of the people you see in the gym will never get on a platform and have the intensity that those super elite lifter's do..they'll literally train 3 months for 3 attempts on meet day...

so a one rep max to that class of lifter is probably gonna be a little more intense than lifters here with our 1 rep max.

without a doubt IMO the 1 rep max's that people here post (with vids or no) are only at a certain (albiet high) percentage of thier true 1 rep max..

take flex for example..the guy's posting with vids 505 as his best squat numbers to date..now squeeze a little adrenaline into his ass and put a gun to his temple and I'm sure that his numbers would increase greatly next week (or whenever) ...

my point is that none of here are on par mentally with guys like andy bolton so getting back to (or close to) a 1 rep everyweek really isn't the same as those big boys

zedx
01-25-2012, 06:15 PM
Ok, I let this soak in and starting to get it. So if I were to go up to a max for 1 "set" that should only effect volume?

I'm wondering if I could or rather "should" be able to hit a max for set and just adjust reps/weight to make up the volume? So if I'm working with say 205x5 right now for a lift I could go to 195x6x2 then 230x1 then back to 195x6x2 and it should be the same as 205x5x5?

That's some deep thinking and maybe too much.

if you never go heavy give it a shot. I'd bet in short order you could do pretty much what you do now and also add a couple heavy sets in the middle. because I think you have more desire than your brother,

I'd warm up and do your higher reps but don't go to failure. Stop short of failure more than 1 or 2 reps. maybe like 5. Pyramid the weight up then peak your power when you hit a heavy weight you can only do once or twice.

Then on the way down do your higher reps stuff and get some good burns in going to failure.:)

maxing doesn't mean putting more weight than you can handle on and using crappy form and risking injury. It means putting enough weight on that you think you can only do 1 or two reps. make an intelligent guess. Over time when you try the same weight you will get more reps. Then bump it.

bigtallox
01-25-2012, 06:27 PM
What were the outcomes of these injuries?

One was bad enough for the guy to quite lifting for good, he had 450-ish raw bench too. He tore his pec. The other one that comes to mind was also a pec tear, with 315, for a guy who also had a 450+ raw bench. He eventually benched again, not sure what his status is anymore though, he may have ended up quitting too. The others were bicep tears, one required surgery to repair the other didn't.


the severity I've seen in max effort stuff tends to be pretty nasty.

It could be just chance that I haven't seen anybody get hurt on max effort stuff. Or perhaps these guys just weren't warming up good enough.



I would gladly take a "rest/ice/elevate" injury over a "surgery and physical therapy" injury.


Absolutely.

bigtallox
01-25-2012, 06:31 PM
The big reason I stay away from max out's is they will burn you out. You could have gotten a productive 5 sets, 25 rep volume workout but now you've shot your wad on a max out and no matter what the volume is, the intensity will suffer.

IMHO, there's nothing more intense than doing a true 1 rep max, so i really don't understand your logic. Yes there is a time and place for doing reps, even if you're a powerlifter, but your reason for not maxing out being that intensity will suffer is a sequitur to me.

CardinalRB34
01-25-2012, 06:58 PM
another issue with constant 1 rep max sets is it is relatively hard on your CNS.

MontyMagpie
01-25-2012, 07:01 PM
another issue with constant 1 rep max sets is it is relatively hard on your CNS.
What is CNS?

zedx
01-25-2012, 07:57 PM
What is CNS?

Constant negative symmetry. Others call it central nervous system.

BrotherWolf
01-25-2012, 08:31 PM
I don't know but I think I'm starting to see people's reluctance to max:

http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd371/flintdb68/daily_gifdump_75_06.gif

holy **** that's bizarre

cmoore
01-25-2012, 09:04 PM
hoy **** that's bizarre

That's awesome!

BrotherWolf
01-25-2012, 09:10 PM
Ok, I let this soak in and starting to get it. So if I were to go up to a max for 1 "set" that should only effect volume?
1 set of how many reps ? a true 1rm ? it affects intensity and volume



I'm wondering if I could or rather "should" be able to hit a max for set and just adjust reps/weight to make up the volume? So if I'm working with say 205x5 right now for a lift I could go to 195x6x2 then 230x1 then back to 195x6x2 and it should be the same as 205x5x5?

volume wise yes ..
roughly :
volume = amount of reps
intensity = amount of weight
how you get to establish the volume/ intensity ratio is more complicated
for example a 5x5 strength routine might have a volume day with low intensity and a high intensity day with lower volume to give the joint some rest but still test your maxes
google "texas method" read it up that should clear things up it's a perfect example of a program with a blend of intensity and volume where you try to max every week ..

Smelly bull
01-26-2012, 04:01 AM
IMHO, there's nothing more intense than doing a true 1 rep max,

This is so true.

CookAndrewB
01-26-2012, 07:56 AM
are you talking about the occasional torn muscle/tendons?? other than that what kind of injuries are you talking about ?

you're more likely to injure yourself doing cardio then doing max lifts
obviously we are not talking about some dude who's never squatted and put 600lb on the bar and get crushed by it
if you are reasonably trained a 1rm attempt is not dangerous
now if strength isn't your goal it's a different thing , obviously it's not necessary to test your strength ever

Yes, I'm talking about torn muscles/tendons, ruptured discs, fractures, broken bones, etc. You assume a different level of risk when you place your body structures under maximal load, just like the example with the bridge. I don't think I'm saying anything wildly controversial here, it's simple physics.

I don't know that I've seen any statistics on probability of injury when undertaking max lifts as compared to cardio (by which I'll assume that you mean running). Even if the numbers were far greater, well, more people run than perform max lifts. If you are referring to safety in Oly lifting, it is because you can only move the amount of weight that your form will support... which is typically far less than you could move with truly awful form. For instance, a jerk will be lighter than a push press, so a max jerk will always be less than the maximal amount of weight that the body can support and move in a structural sense. This isn't true in something like a squat or deadlift or bench press. There is a good reason that these lifts far exceed Oly movements in weight, because good form isn't requisite in a successful lift and the body can truly be pushed to the edge of its limits. Add supportive gear and now you can go beyond your muscular capacity to move a weight, which further tests connective tissue, bones, and joints.

I recognize that not everyone that attempts a max effort is a 700lb bench presser in a double ply shirt, but then again, THOSE guys would be the ones that I would trust under a max attempt... and still they will get injuries.

So I'm not certain what you are arguing for/against here. I largely imagine that you have created some straw man argument that I never posed in the first place, and that most of your support comes from broscience or the evidence that you have witnessed first hand. Just because you (or Ox) has never witnessed, or infrequently witnessed, these types of injuries doesn't mean they don't happen. I haven't seen many car accidents, but I am aware that there is risk associated with getting in my car and driving around. My entire point, was that the risk of max effort lifts was overly minimized and that if you didn't NEED to pursue this end, the risk may not be worth the reward. Period.

Marius_Ursus
01-26-2012, 07:59 AM
Just for general information:

http://www.sweatpit.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=wlinjury

Husky Bob
01-26-2012, 09:21 AM
I've attempted 3 rep maxes on bench (275) and squat (365), never 1RM, though. I figure I can extrapolate from there...

Marius_Ursus
01-26-2012, 09:37 AM
another issue with constant 1 rep max sets is it is relatively hard on your CNS.

If you're careful to watch where you're going, eventually you stop stepping in front of cars. Same goes for being hard on your CNS. Eat right and rest right, and the CNS will recover right.

vladoversic
01-26-2012, 12:30 PM
I'm changing up my workouts and was curious how often I should try for my max weight (1 rep) - mainly for squats & bench. The last month or so, I've been going to max about every other workout (once a week). I'm seeing decent gains - but am thinking that might be too much.

Also, for the days I don't go to my max - how heavy do you go? Right now I do about 80% of my max weight on those days. Too much? Too little?

FYI - I work out twice a week (most muscle groups each time - different exercises).
It depends on what your program is biased towards meaning are there any overlaping exercises hitting the same muscles hard, but if your progressing i wouldn't change the program or make modifications to it. Just keep it as long as you see results.

lightingbird
01-26-2012, 02:13 PM
I'm not on any type of program so my 5 x 5 weight is not supposed to be anything.

And if you are steadily adding 5 lbs per week then I am guessing you are relatively new, because that won't last unless you are sandbagging.

My first deadlift workout I pulled 315, 4 weeks later I pulled 405, 6 months later I pulled 495, 5 months later I pulled 545. Progression is not linear.

Can you please give a summary of how you go into a workout week? I mean in regards to how many days you try to hit max, how many days you just do your stand reps? How do you know what weight range you should stay in? Any other tips. Your thinking makes sense but I just need help getting it more clearly ha.

MontyMagpie
01-26-2012, 02:20 PM
Constant negative symmetry. Others call it central nervous system.

I don't see what difference that would make.

nixter
01-26-2012, 02:49 PM
Never attempted a 1rm and probably never will. Then again I train for show more than go. Don't NEED to be all that strong sitting in front of a computer for 16hrs a day :/ I typically never go lower than 5 and even that's rare. These days I'm really testing out the BB'ing adage that one should "work the muscle not the weight"...or something like that. Basically I'm focusing on form, range, explosive concentric, slow eccentric. Yeah, I know that should always be the case but as we are often eager to add more weight to our lifts, the details can sometimes suffer. Yesterday I did some nice, deep squatting with moderate weight and I'm feeling the effects more than I used to with almost double the weight.

Guinea-pig
01-26-2012, 07:21 PM
For me even as a powerlifter I would save my singles for the meet maybe some doubles or triples the week before.Its not necssarily how much you lift its how you lift of coure you shouldnt lift anything that might be too heavy for you but some people just dont listen.