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View Full Version : Very interesting article on supps - saying get rid of them.



jmelanson
01-24-2012, 07:08 AM
I'm going to use up the ones I have and then go off them for awhile and see what happens.....what say you?

http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/01/23/the-end-of-illness/


in before tl;dr

Universialbrah
01-24-2012, 07:12 AM
"I'm going to use up the ones I have and then go off them for awhile and see what happens....."

Been trying to do this for ever it seems...

Food>supps

x-trainer ben
01-24-2012, 07:24 AM
I'm going to use up the ones I have and then go off them for awhile and see what happens.....what say you?

http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/01/23/the-end-of-illness/


in before tl;dr

I have tried that B4 ^^^and they help more than they hurt at the moment. BTW i don't use many at all, and the ones i do use i have researched.

TenThreeFive
01-24-2012, 07:44 AM
Did a lot of research on this myself and came to the conclusion that its ridiculous. Some say he has a stake in statins, statins have caused numerous health problems for people. An aspirin a day can and eventually will cause gastrointestinal bleeding. Get sleep, ya, ok. Wear proper shoes, again, ya, ok. I don't juice but Jack Lalanne seemed to do well with it. Exercise, um, ya, ok. Sitting all day is not good for you, mmmm, ok. Nothing earth shattering but if you are against prescribing drugs then why tell people to take a statin everyday even if you don't need it. Bad Bad advice. I agree that inflammation causes disease and you must try and eliminate it from your life as best you can.

jmelanson
01-24-2012, 07:55 AM
"I'm going to use up the ones I have and then go off them for awhile and see what happens....."

Been trying to do this for ever it seems...

Food>supps

I agree, food is definitely better than supps. What if you don't eat enough veggies though? Can you sup with supps?

jmelanson
01-24-2012, 08:00 AM
I have tried that B4 ^^^and they help more than they hurt at the moment. BTW i don't use many at all, and the ones i do use i have researched.

This line here kinda concerns me: Vitamin D feeds healthy cells, so it may also feed cancerous ones. Vitamin C certainly does. Tumours, Agus says, “eat it like candy.”

You know how if you feel pain from cancer, it is usually too late. So what if you do your regular colonoscopies, checkups, blood work, etc..but you do get a tumor (which lots of discussion says we all have tumors, it's whether they grow or not) and don't realize and the vitamin C you're taking just feeds that bad boy like a puppy?

I do know about angiogenesis and how eating crap will help feed the tumors or growths, so lots of berries for me/us.

Adrenaline
01-24-2012, 08:02 AM
Food is the best supplement you can take. Nothing wrong with taking vitamins or supplements but it should only be used in moderation - not every day like some people do. Moderation is key - in anything you do in life.

jmelanson
01-24-2012, 08:04 AM
Did a lot of research on this myself and came to the conclusion that its ridiculous. Some say he has a stake in statins, statins have caused numerous health problems for people. An aspirin a day can and eventually will cause gastrointestinal bleeding. Get sleep, ya, ok. Wear proper shoes, again, ya, ok. I don't juice but Jack Lalanne seemed to do well with it. Exercise, um, ya, ok. Sitting all day is not good for you, mmmm, ok. Nothing earth shattering but if you are against prescribing drugs then why tell people to take a statin everyday even if you don't need it. Bad Bad advice. I agree that inflammation causes disease and you must try and eliminate it from your life as best you can.

Like he does say and even in bodybuilding, everyone's body is different and responds differently. So you need, I guess, to find what works for you and go with it.

I do agree with you about skipping the aspirin. I hit the hot tub everyday for 20 mins after my workout for the anti-inflammatory effects. (it sure does help speed my recovery time from workouts!)

Thanks for your input!

x-trainer ben
01-24-2012, 08:37 AM
This line here kinda concerns me: Vitamin D feeds healthy cells, so it may also feed cancerous ones. Vitamin C certainly does. Tumours, Agus says, “eat it like candy.”

You know how if you feel pain from cancer, it is usually too late. So what if you do your regular colonoscopies, checkups, blood work, etc..but you do get a tumor (which lots of discussion says we all have tumors, it's whether they grow or not) and don't realize and the vitamin C you're taking just feeds that bad boy like a puppy?

I do know about angiogenesis and how eating crap will help feed the tumors or growths, so lots of berries for me/us.


Sugar, is what i read recently feeds cancer cells more than anything

TenThreeFive
01-24-2012, 08:38 AM
I do know about angiogenesis and how eating crap will help feed the tumors or growths, so lots of berries for me/us.The Angiogenesis Foundation says eating these foods will stop cancer in their tracks. Green tea, Strawberries, Soybeans, Chocolate, Cinnamon. Artichokes, Bok Choy, cooked Tomatoes, and Omega 3. People with cancer have said their tumors stopped once they started eating these regularly as well. Take it for what it is I guess but I add them to my diet just in case.

IShallNotFall85
01-24-2012, 08:45 AM
If I take a multivitamin, I usually cut the serving size in half (if possible). Ill take just one if it calls for 2. I figure I'm taking in a good amount of vitamins and minerals in from food and there is no major need for 100% or more of some vitamins from supps alone. Just my thoughts.

I often start to wonder how some who don't have a great diet or who have never thought of taking multi's end up living a long and heart healthy life. I'm not arguing that these theories are all messed up and I'd rather eat healthier to increase my chances of being healthy. It simply makes me ponder.... why?

jmelanson
01-24-2012, 09:11 AM
Food is the best supplement you can take. Nothing wrong with taking vitamins or supplements but it should only be used in moderation - not every day like some people do. Moderation is key - in anything you do in life.

Agree with the food, but not according to the doc in the article about vitamin C and E for supps.

jmelanson
01-24-2012, 09:13 AM
Sugar, is what i read recently feeds cancer cells more than anything

I think that would be true. The crap in fast food, I think, also helps cancer along.

Someone I know died from a type of blood cancer (can't remember the cancer type offhand) and she loved her sweets.

jmelanson
01-24-2012, 09:15 AM
The Angiogenesis Foundation says eating these foods will stop cancer in their tracks. Green tea, Strawberries, Soybeans, Chocolate, Cinnamon. Artichokes, Bok Choy, cooked Tomatoes, and Omega 3. People with cancer have said their tumors stopped once they started eating these regularly as well. Take it for what it is I guess but I add them to my diet just in case.

I'm with you on this for sure. I'm drinking green tea right now as I type this. Eat a little dark chocolate almost daily and get me lots of berries daily. Started making my own protein bars to get away from all the crap in the store bought ones; they are cheaper and taste way better also!

jmelanson
01-24-2012, 09:19 AM
If I take a multivitamin, I usually cut the serving size in half (if possible). Ill take just one if it calls for 2. I figure I'm taking in a good amount of vitamins and minerals in from food and there is no major need for 100% or more of some vitamins from supps alone. Just my thoughts.

I think I'm going to drop them altogether.



I often start to wonder how some who don't have a great diet or who have never thought of taking multi's end up living a long and heart healthy life. I'm not arguing that these theories are all messed up and I'd rather eat healthier to increase my chances of being healthy. It simply makes me ponder.... why?

I think everyone is different in their immune systems, etc...like the old guy/gal you see/hear about smoking and drinking their whole life and live to 95.

I think they are exception to the rule though as the general population would not be so lucky.

I also feel so much better eating properly than when eating crap/junk food. I still cheat here and there and it tastes good going down and then I feel ill after eating it.

rand18m
01-24-2012, 10:07 AM
Nobody on this planet truly knows the answers to these questions. I liked your article and all it really advocated was what we would consider a healthy lifestyle and be wary of all the snake oil crap going around. I suspect he is correct!!

I recently listened to a lecture by Dr. Evelyn Hughes, who is thought to be a leading expert on the subject of nutrition in a bottle. Anyway she went on to site the same studies sited in this article plus many more. She agrees that likely we take too much and only time will tell. In the end when asked about what she actually does, well guess what, she takes a low dose vit, especially on days she doesn't get to eat correctly, and she takes Vit D and Omega 3. I am not certain even if you don't eat a well balanced diet that they are worth it, although I take one a day myself, one thing we do know, and that is when taken from the food itself many of the molecules don't act the same, beta carotene is one perfect example.

As far as statins go it is pretty well understood that they have a protective effect from CVD without the lowering of cholesterol, the mechanisms of which are not understood. The aspirin would be suggested for men with known CVD and some docs do so for all after a certain age that DON'T have a predisposition for gastric bleeding. Unless others commenting on this site are DR's or have a doctorate in known physiology then we should all strive to learn from those that do. I'll leave you with this quote!


Bertrand Russel's aphorism:

"When the experts are not agreed, no opinion can be held to be certain.
When the experts are agreed, the non expert would do well to refrain
from advancing the contrary hypothesis."

TenThreeFive
01-24-2012, 10:30 AM
Nobody in this planet truly knows the answers to these questions.

As far as statins go it is pretty well understood that they have a protective effect from CVD without the lowering of cholesterol, the mechanisms of which are not understood. The aspirin would be suggested for men with known CVD and some docs do so for all after a certain age that DON'T have a predisposition for gastric bleeding. Unless others commenting on this site are DR's or have a doctorate in known physiology them we should all strive to learn from those that do. I'll leave you with this quote!



First you say nobody knows the answer then you say unless you are a Doctor then you have no opinion. Which one is it? Statins have been linked to liver problems, acute kidney failure, muscle damage and memory loss. Daily aspirins are only recommended for people who have suffered a stroke or heart attack and should be monitored by a Doctor, not just randomly taken, as they can cause serious side effects. Recommending people take these blindly is irresponsible and dangerous and I don't need to be a Doctor to comment on that. Common sense goes a long way in taking care of your health.

TenThreeFive
01-24-2012, 10:33 AM
I think I'm going to drop them altogether.





I dropped them long ago but continue taking fish oil and vitamin D, these two have pretty solid evidence on the benefits.

Marius_Ursus
01-24-2012, 10:44 AM
I agree, food is definitely better than supps. What if you don't eat enough veggies though? Can you sup with supps?


Greens Plus
Macro Greens
Vegegreens
Terragreens
Garden of Life Perfect Food

There are a lot of powdered vegetables out there. If you're not getting enough whole vegetables in your diet, stir a tablespoon of a pulverized vegetable blend into a juice glass of water or whatever and chug it down.

rand18m
01-24-2012, 10:51 AM
First you say nobody knows the answer then you say unless you are a Doctor then you have no opinion. Which one is it? Statins have been linked to liver problems, acute kidney failure, muscle damage and memory loss. Daily aspirins are only recommended for people who have suffered a stroke or heart attack and should be monitored by a Doctor, not just randomly taken, as they can cause serious side effects. Recommending people take these blindly is irresponsible and dangerous and I don't need to be a Doctor to comment on that. Common sense goes a long way in taking care of your health.



I didn't see anywhere in the article where he advocated taking these drugs on your own, which of course with a statin you couldn't. I also did not suggest that we shouldn't have opinions, but to state as fact that everyone over 50, shouldn't be on a statin, could likely be as wrong as stating they should.

I am not certain how you misunderstood the first sentence!

TenThreeFive
01-24-2012, 11:00 AM
I didn't see anywhere in the article where he advocated taking these drugs on your own, which of course with a statin you couldn't. I also did not suggest that we shouldn't have opinions, but to state as fact that everyone over 50, shouldn't be on a statin, could likely be as wrong as stating they should.

I am not certain how you misunderstood the first sentence!His book pushes everyone to get on statins and aspirins. Its irresponsible and he should know that after reading the headlines people are going to run to their Doctors asking for them. Doctors will have no problem giving it them either. Millions of people are on statins needlessly with little or no benefit and a lot with serious side effects.

rand18m
01-24-2012, 11:11 AM
His book pushes everyone to get on statins and aspirins. Its irresponsible and he should know that after reading the headlines people are going to run to their Doctors asking for them. Doctors will have no problem giving it them either. Millions of people are on statins needlessly with little or no benefit and a lot with serious side effects.

I question whether you read the entire article.

I don't know where you are getting your information on statins and how doctors prescribe them but it's contrary to mine.

Every therapy has a risk/reward that has to be weighed, that's really not something new in medicine. If the reward is greater than the risk in the over 50 set, then it might be prudent to do such a thing, if you are one of the few that has side affects, well then it would be prudent to STOP the therapy. This really isn't that hard!

rand18m
01-24-2012, 11:12 AM
His book pushes everyone to get on statins and aspirins. Its irresponsible and he should know that after reading the headlines people are going to run to their Doctors asking for them. Doctors will have no problem giving it them either. Millions of people are on statins needlessly with little or no benefit and a lot with serious side effects.

Oh and by the way, if that's you in the pic and you're 44, well you're doing something right so I would keep it up!!!

TenThreeFive
01-24-2012, 11:29 AM
I question whether you read the entire article.

I don't know where you are getting your information on statins and how doctors prescribe them but it's contrary to mine.

Every therapy has a risk/reward that has to be weighed, that's really not something new in medicine. If the reward is greater than the risk in the over 50 set, then it might be prudent to do such a thing, if you are one of the few that has side affects, well then it would be prudent to STOP the therapy. This really isn't that hard!His book is titled "The End of Illness", the media headlines are all about taking statins. He blindly prescribes statins to people over 40. He also says nutrition doesn't have a role in disease. He pushes drugs as a magic cure to end illness. Very irresponsible. Do some more in depth research on statins, the statistics are manipulated because of all the healthy people taking them needlessly.


Oh and by the way, if that's you in the pic and you're 44, well you're doing something right so I would keep it up!!!Yes thats me and thanks for the compliment.

crupiea
01-24-2012, 05:26 PM
Great article thanks for posting it.

Kraken
01-24-2012, 06:13 PM
I think some of it depends on your lifestyle. There are some people that have such busy lives that hitting the gym alone can be a difficult task. Obviously sups can benefit someone like this, but lettuce be real here. How many honestly have lives that busy? I do know of some guys that blow their lunch hour in the gym, and work about 14-16 hour days, but that;s pretty intense and not many people really have a life that busy.

That said, I do have time to prepare, cook and plan our meals and I make sure my entire family has a very balanced diet. I make sure we have 1-2 sources of red meat per week and 1-2 of fish at a minimum. We eat mostly whole foods too. Only supps I take are whey and fish oil. The whey is for pre workout after I have been fasting.

Karl_Hungus
01-24-2012, 07:50 PM
Greens Plus
Macro Greens
Vegegreens
Terragreens
Garden of Life Perfect Food

There are a lot of powdered vegetables out there. If you're not getting enough whole vegetables in your diet, stir a tablespoon of a pulverized vegetable blend into a juice glass of water or whatever and chug it down.

But, do you get the same benefit from a powdered vegetable that you would from a real vegetable? Vitamin supplements are supposed to be the good stuff distilled from healthy foods .... but, it always seems like the truly important stuff gets lost in the process as vitamins never stack up well against vegetables. Are powdered veggies any different?

Kraken
01-24-2012, 08:35 PM
But, do you get the same benefit from a powdered vegetable that you would from a real vegetable? Vitamin supplements are supposed to be the good stuff distilled from healthy foods .... but, it always seems like the truly important stuff gets lost in the process as vitamins never stack up well against vegetables. Are powdered veggies any different?

There is some debate from the whole foods people that vitamins from anything other than fresh, whole foods, do not have the bioavailability of their processed counter parts. As for antioxidants, they describe antioxidants in processed foods to be nothing more than empty shells that offers no benefit.

I really don't know what to believe, but what I do think is that if you are lacking in something, it has to help a little, even in these worst case scenarios stated in my previous paragraph.

kostasthai
01-25-2012, 12:42 AM
aspirin 85 mg, omega-3 (300 mg EPA+200 mg DHA= sometimes 1 capsule a day, sometimes 8 weeks 3xday), Folate (MTHFR deficient), Alanine, Arginine, Creatine, whey. No Vitamins, no D but sunbathe back 20 mins every sunday! Vegetables, fruits and unprocessed foods.

jkreuze
01-25-2012, 04:38 AM
I'm trying to figure out why sitting for four hours would have a drastically negative physiological effect as compared to, say, lying down in bed for eight hours.

Just need that claim backed up with solid empirical evidence so I can explain to my employer why I've rigged up my cubicle with a twin bed with warm blankets and a boom-stand for my monitor so I can suspend it horizontally above my head.

trickyB
01-25-2012, 06:28 AM
1035-I think it's good to have an understanding that all medications and interventions have risk. But those risks need to be balanced against the benefits. The decision to take a medication or have an intervention should be made after a discussion about the risks and benefits and there implications for that individual. Blanket statement that statins cause X and are therefore bad are silly.

drudixon
01-25-2012, 06:30 AM
The key thing to know @ supplements is that your body always wants homeostasis. Weight training can change the body's requirements, increasing the need for additional vitamins, proteins, carbs, fats, etc. As the body's needs increase, so too should be the need for certain things with which to rebuild, hence supplementation to fill the void left by diet. That said, throwing 20,000% of something at your body disrupts homeostasis just as much as 0% of something. People have to forget the more is better mentality and use trial and error to find the best results, all the while being cognizant that homeostasis is a moving target, so requirements change daily, weekly, monthly. A simple illustration of this can be found in sodium/potassium balance. Too much of either and the water balance between intracellular and interstitial water retention gets out of whack, resulting in imperfect blood pressure, poor vascular performance, decreased cellular performance under load, etc.

To your point about additives, chemicals, etc found in processed foods. Some are not bad, they simply introduce complexity. Looking at the sodium potassium example, if sodium and potassium were the only things affected water balance, life would be great. The problem is that many other things play a role here too. Caffeine (and any other diuretics) or things like Creatine (functional opposite of caffeine related to water retention) impact this balance. If caffeine is introduced, either salt should be reduced, or potassium increased. Or, creatine could be introduced. But, how much of each should be truly introduced to result in a net zero for water balance? Furthermore, caffeine and creatine are involved in other processes than just water balance, so as you work to get water to net zero, you may be taking a different process and disrupting it's homeostasis. With processed foods, we introduce legions of complexity, some which we understand, most we don't. We're lucky in that our kidney's and liver are great at minimizing the effect of these chemicals, however they're not perfect. Some of these chemicals bond at the cellular level, others at the molecular level. What happens when the pig feed stimulant used to lean out pigs (rapotectin sp?) starts interacting with thyroid levels (cellular interaction)? Who knows? It's different for everyone.

Regarding cancer, cancer cells are functionally just like any other cell, just with messed up DNA (over-simplification). Your body has trillions of cells with messed up DNA, but the overwhelming majority don't do anything. Sometimes they cause blindness, arythmia, etc, but most of the time, they get purged, or sit there doing nothing. Cancers aren't genetically identical from person to person. Saying I ate 80 tomatoes a day and my cancer went away could possibly work for 1 out of 1000 people, but in most people it's just as likely to cause cancer (reference studies indicating too many antioxidants cause cancer). In the end, it gets back to homeostasis. Find the balance for you.

TL:DR requirements for homeostasis differ from person to person. Supplements are fine if used to maintain homeostasis, but not to disrupt it.

CaptnC
01-25-2012, 09:32 AM
I also feel so much better eating properly than when eating crap/junk food. I still cheat here and there and it tastes good going down and then I feel ill after eating it.


That sucks! I think I would die sooner if I cut all my sweets out! Tastes great going in, but the "full" feeling doesn't last long before the "need" for something else arises. I normally go for something high in protien as a follow up snack...

ironwill2008
01-25-2012, 11:02 AM
I'm trying to figure out why sitting for four hours would have a drastically negative physiological effect as compared to, say, lying down in bed for eight hours.

And that's the problem with such "studies;" they automatically assume that correlation = causation. It doesn't.

For example: All those people in that study who sat for 4 hours; it's highly likely that they were all wearing shoes at that time, so I can then deduce that wearing shoes for 4 hours has a negative physiological effect. I can further deduce that if I never sit down, or never wear shoes, I'll never suffer any negative health effects.

drudixon
01-25-2012, 03:42 PM
And that's the problem with such "studies;" they automatically assume that correlation = causation. It doesn't.

For example: All those people in that study who sat for 4 hours; it's highly likely that they were all wearing shoes at that time, so I can then deduce that wearing shoes for 4 hours has a negative physiological effect. I can further deduce that if I never sit down, or never wear shoes, I'll never suffer any negative health effects.

Well written and good point.

PS. I'm never sitting down ever agian...

Animalwannabe
01-26-2012, 08:38 AM
Sitting down for long hours has to do with Posterior Pelvic Tilt and Anterior Pelvic tilt and Front Cross syndrome as well as Lower Cross Syndrome. Its not only proven research but just go take off your shirt and without straightening yourself up or changing posture go look at yourself in the mirror from the side and observe the kyphosis and lordosis that commonly comes from sitting for hours on end.

I did not read the article and didn't really care I was just looking at the arguements and noticed that now you have to have 'research' to prove that staying in a locked and flexed position for hours on end wont have bad effects to your body.

CardinalRB34
01-26-2012, 08:52 AM
whole food sources are best. I think people rely too much on supplements instead of their proper food intake. But that being said.. some supplements really do work great... convenient.. and add a lot to my macro nutrient intake.

geer_matt
01-26-2012, 09:03 AM
We were just talking about the book "The Jungle" (pretty sure that is the right title) in Econ class this morning. Go read it maybe it will change your mind about food lol.

Th3velourfog
01-26-2012, 02:48 PM
He lost all credibility with his rant about how awesome statins are
A review of previous studies, published in the journal The Cochrane Library, has burst the ‘statin-bubble’. The results of this comprehensive study suggest that statins are ineffective in many cases and could be doing more harm than good.

trickyB
01-26-2012, 05:05 PM
He lost all credibility with his rant about how awesome statins are
A review of previous studies, published in the journal The Cochrane Library, has burst the ‘statin-bubble’. The results of this comprehensive study suggest that statins are ineffective in many cases and could be doing more harm than good.
Doctor,
I'm going to have surgery, should I continue taking my statin or stop altogether because they are ineffective? I've had a MI if that matters?

Thanks for your insight and expertise.

KLMARB
01-27-2012, 05:59 AM
I disagree with his take on statins. Statins were developed as a market response to research that applied the misnomer of "bad" to LDL. Since now research has found that there are at least four different types of LDL, both large and small particle LDL, (Krause) statins have been found to interfere with normal fat metabolism. That's why the major side effect of statins is the wide variety of fibromyalgic type conditions. It is the small particle LDL that causes the major problems and the high levels of those particles is linked to carbohydrate consumption. That's why something simply looking at the LDL level is not a very good indicator of any type of health risk.