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v1rt
01-23-2012, 10:48 PM
I just learned few minutes ago that an apple has a 18.9g of sugar based from this link. WOW, that's a high number I guess. Is it?

http://caloriecount.about.com/calories-apples-i9003

Should I stay away from apples?

ironwill2008
01-23-2012, 11:25 PM
This is a joke, right?

chevro1et
01-24-2012, 12:21 AM
I've never heard of anyone getting fat from eating too much fruit.

CardinalRB34
01-24-2012, 12:33 AM
If your goal is to get as lean as you can in the shortest amount of time possible... then apples are not the BEST choice of carbs.

CardinalRB34
01-24-2012, 12:35 AM
Go ahead and shoot me with your comments. hahahahahah

pastorgbc
01-24-2012, 02:48 AM
I just learned few minutes ago that an apple has a 18.9g of sugar based from this link. WOW, that's a high number I guess. Is it?

http://caloriecount.about.com/calories-apples-i9003

Should I stay away from apples?

Apples are excellent to add to your diet. They are low in calories but high in fiber. They are nutrient dense, so you get fiber and vitamins in a low calorie source. They are also good sources of pectin and quercetin which your body uses efficiently for energy and also help reduce inflammation in the body. Apples are also good sources of ursolic acid, which is being shown to spare muscle but reduce fat when eating at a caloric deficit.

MetalAcid
01-24-2012, 04:40 AM
um... like seriously?

BillReilly
01-24-2012, 05:16 AM
Apples, the silent killer.

xR1pp3Rx
01-24-2012, 05:32 AM
well the sugar involved is fructose.. so for those of you running CKD u can use apples prior to your depletion work out, thus tricking the body into releasing even more of the last held muscle glycogen.

DaniGrrl
01-24-2012, 06:49 AM
Apples are higher in carbs than, say, berries, but if it fits into your macros, go for it. Like someone else said, no one ever got fat eating too many apples. Bananas are sort of the same way, higher in carbs than other fruits, but just because a fruit is higher in carbs doesn't mean it's bad. It's FRUIT - full of vitamins and fiber, etc. If it is a food that you love, eat it. Work it into your macros.

ljimd
01-24-2012, 06:52 AM
Unless you are on a strict pre-comp cut, I would not concern myself. Fruit is healthy and tasty and a good food choice. It's a matter of context, what you are trying to accomplish? For example you can save 60 cals and 18 grams of sugar carbs by replacing an apple with a cup of broc****, but it isn't necessary. I'm guessing you have a ways to go before you concern yourself with such nitpicking. Have an apple.

Brackneyc
01-24-2012, 06:52 AM
I've never heard of anyone getting fat from eating too much fruit.


You can fat eating too much of aynthing.

BrotherWolf
01-24-2012, 07:27 AM
**** apples .. cannoli is where it's at

BrotherWolf
01-24-2012, 07:31 AM
I just learned few minutes ago that an apple has a 18.9g of sugar based from this link. WOW, that's a high number I guess. Is it?

http://caloriecount.about.com/calories-apples-i9003

Should I stay away from apples?

not all apples have the same sugar content

2nd_chance
01-24-2012, 08:17 AM
I'd stick with 100 Grand bars

latebloomingmom
01-24-2012, 08:42 AM
Apples, the silent killer.
I knew that 'apple a day keeps the doctor away' was bullsh*t
fruit...the ticket to an early grave...
here I thought maybe it was whoppers.;)

latebloomingmom
01-24-2012, 08:43 AM
You can fat eating too much of aynthing. Is this english??:)

Brackneyc
01-24-2012, 09:26 AM
Is this english??:)

Figured I'd drop all the unnecessary words. :)

I have to LOL at guys who think a person cannot get fat eating fruits.

OutOfStep
01-24-2012, 11:12 AM
I have to LOL at guys who think a person cannot get fat eating fruits.

I have to LOL at guys who think that they are going to get fat from eating fruit.

Brackneyc
01-24-2012, 11:17 AM
I have to LOL at guys who think that they are going to get fat from eating fruit.

I got fat as hell, and fruit was a huge staple in my diet. Tomorrow I will eat my daily cals in ice cream only. Wednesday is going to be a good day for me. :)

OutOfStep
01-24-2012, 01:11 PM
I got fat as hell, and fruit was a huge staple in my diet. Tomorrow I will eat my daily cals in ice cream only. Wednesday is going to be a good day for me. :)

As an adult male who takes in roughly 4000 kcal/day I'm not concerned about an 80 calorie apple making me fat. But that's me.

highiso
01-24-2012, 01:46 PM
As an adult male who takes in roughly 4000 kcal/day I'm not concerned about an 80 calorie apple making me fat. But that's me.

Must be nice.

Jtbny
01-24-2012, 01:55 PM
Must be nice.

Well you are only 2 so you an apple a day may make you fat ;)

Unless I'm eating 3000k a day in fruit then I'm not worried about it making me fat. If you have to worry about an apple a day making you fat then I think you have bigger issues with your diet.

Edit: it's like I've seen this thread before. I guess the next one will be about how bad milk is for you, and someone will have to quote Arnold in their argument :rolleyes:

Jtbny
01-24-2012, 01:58 PM
**** apples .. cannoli is where it's at

Only if it's fresh filled ;) don't pre fill my cannolis!!

ironwill2008
01-24-2012, 02:00 PM
Based on most of the recent threads posted in this forum, I guess I shouldn't be surprised at this one.
















But I still am.

kimm4
01-24-2012, 02:05 PM
I actually take out the core and fill the middle with PB and raisins. Plain apples kinda bore me...:D

Brackneyc
01-24-2012, 02:12 PM
As an adult male who takes in roughly 4000 kcal/day I'm not concerned about an 80 calorie apple making me fat. But that's me.


4000 cals is two days worth of food for me (srs). I do eat one piece of fruit (banana) per day however. The comment from the poster saying he never knew anyone that got fat from eating fruit was just funny. I am not a fruit "hater." I do however understand that a calorie is a calorie where surplus is concerned, and fruit is not a "free" food by any stretch.

If I could eat 4000 cals a day, I'd be more than happy to eat 1/2 of it in fruit, and I could.

v1rt
01-24-2012, 02:12 PM
Awesome folks! I won't eat a lot of it then. Thanks a lot!!!

Brackneyc
01-24-2012, 02:14 PM
Awesome folks! I won't eat a lot of it then. Thanks a lot!!!

You weigh 145. You should be fine. I am 3 inches taller than you, and have 50lbs on you.

ironwill2008
01-24-2012, 02:16 PM
Awesome folks! I won't eat a lot of it then. Thanks a lot!!!

This is a joke, right?

CardinalRB34
01-24-2012, 02:17 PM
Honestly.. if you're an average dieter.. than yes. A serving of fruit here or there is ample and you can lose bodyfat. If you want to get lean as quick as possible then people are going to kill me again with comments, when I suggest avoiding fruit.

as far as the comment "nobody ever got fat eating fruit"... It happens. When I started my first contest prep in college.. girls were noticing that I was losing weight. A couple of them complained to me that they couldn't lose any weight and were in fact gaining. They told me how they ate healthy and low fat... and left it at that. ONe evening in the cafeteria... I noticed they had a TRAY full of fruit. They also suggested that that's all they were eating, for the most part, for all 3 meals. A couple weeks later one of the girls was crying as she ballooned up 8 pounds in those 2-3 weeks. And the fruit diet had failed her.

I don't want to get off.... with rants of sugar content and insulin secretion.. because it's gonna cause complete pandemonium. But you can get fat off of anything. Although... I would like to see somebody get fat off of eating just meat protein. That would be the most improbable way to get fat. I wouldn't advise trying it though.. hahaahha..

Marius_Ursus
01-24-2012, 02:17 PM
I'm pretty sure you could eat a bowl of apples every day and not get fat from it. I mean, the diarrhea differential alone would offset any demon-fructose lard gain.

latebloomingmom
01-24-2012, 02:58 PM
I actually take out the core and fill the middle with PB and raisins. Plain apples kinda bore me...:D
now your'e talkin!
apples with peanut butter...mmmmmm

DaniGrrl
01-24-2012, 03:04 PM
I actually take out the core and fill the middle with PB and raisins. Plain apples kinda bore me...:D


now your'e talkin!
apples with peanut butter...mmmmmm

I agree!!!!

ironwill2008
01-24-2012, 03:07 PM
http://assets.bodybuilding.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif



I actually take out the core and fill the middle with PB and raisins. Plain apples kinda bore me...:D

I've never tried that, but will frequently peel, core and slice up a couple of Granny Smiths and a couple of Galas, and then toss them into a big skillet with butter, brown sugar, and cinnamon. Fried up this way, they make a great side dish with just about anything, and they're excellent alongside eggs and fried potatoes.

latebloomingmom
01-24-2012, 03:10 PM
I've never tried that, but will frequently peel, core and slice up a couple of Granny Smiths and a couple of Galas, and then toss them into a big skillet with butter, brown sugar, and cinnamon. Fried up this way, they make a great side dish with just about anything, and they're excellent alongside eggs and fried potatoes.
fried apples are one of my kids' favorites...goes good with pork chops too!

thepowerwithin
01-24-2012, 03:11 PM
now your'e talkin!
apples with peanut butter...mmmmmm

Also good with Nutella. Another good one is quartered, then dipped in full fat sour cream, then brown sugar. Ooey-gooey madness!

ironwill2008
01-24-2012, 03:11 PM
fried apples are one of my kids' favorites...goes good with pork chops too!
Yep. Pork chops, FTW.

Brackneyc
01-24-2012, 04:10 PM
Honestly.. if you're an average dieter.. than yes. A serving of fruit here or there is ample and you can lose bodyfat. If you want to get lean as quick as possible then people are going to kill me again with comments, when I suggest avoiding fruit.

as far as the comment "nobody ever got fat eating fruit"... It happens. When I started my first contest prep in college.. girls were noticing that I was losing weight. A couple of them complained to me that they couldn't lose any weight and were in fact gaining. They told me how they ate healthy and low fat... and left it at that. ONe evening in the cafeteria... I noticed they had a TRAY full of fruit. They also suggested that that's all they were eating, for the most part, for all 3 meals. A couple weeks later one of the girls was crying as she ballooned up 8 pounds in those 2-3 weeks. And the fruit diet had failed her.

I don't want to get off.... with rants of sugar content and insulin secretion.. because it's gonna cause complete pandemonium. But you can get fat off of anything. Although... I would like to see somebody get fat off of eating just meat protein. That would be the most improbable way to get fat. I wouldn't advise trying it though.. hahaahha..


First bolded: I have seen this too, and many times.

Second bolded: Dr. Atkins was ahead of his time.

DaniGrrl
01-24-2012, 05:01 PM
http://assets.bodybuilding.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif




I've never tried that, but will frequently peel, core and slice up a couple of Granny Smiths and a couple of Galas, and then toss them into a big skillet with butter, brown sugar, and cinnamon. Fried up this way, they make a great side dish with just about anything, and they're excellent alongside eggs and fried potatoes.

YUM


fried apples are one of my kids' favorites...goes good with pork chops too!

Yes!


Also good with Nutella. Another good one is quartered, then dipped in full fat sour cream, then brown sugar. Ooey-gooey madness!

OMG, that sounds awesome!


First bolded: I have seen this too, and many times.

Second bolded: Dr. Atkins was ahead of his time.

Well, I think too much of anything is not good. If someone is only going to eat fruit and nothing else, no protein, no fat, etc., their blood sugar is going to skyrocket and they will most likely gain weight. I think the OP's question was about whether he should never eat apples bc of the sugar content. I think apples are fine - it's all about moderation :)

chodan9
01-24-2012, 05:14 PM
had an apple today
one of those honey crisp apples
oh man so crisp sweet and juicy.

was awesome, especially since I had been avoiding a lot of carbs for a extended cycle.
was bliss

Tommy W.
01-24-2012, 05:19 PM
Apples are higher in carbs than, say, berries, but if it fits into your macros, go for it. Like someone else said, no one ever got fat eating too many apples. Bananas are sort of the same way, higher in carbs than other fruits, but just because a fruit is higher in carbs doesn't mean it's bad. It's FRUIT - full of vitamins and fiber, etc. If it is a food that you love, eat it. Work it into your macros.

This^^^^^

Apples fill you up really well and keep you from eating other things. Anyone that says don't eat apples should be beaten with a stick.

Jtbny
01-24-2012, 05:54 PM
This^^^^^

Apples fill you up really well and keep you from eating other things. Anyone that says don't eat apples should be beaten with a stick.

Hate see what you do to people who are vegetarians ;)

Brackneyc
01-24-2012, 06:02 PM
Well, I think too much of anything is not good. If someone is only going to eat fruit and nothing else, no protein, no fat, etc., their blood sugar is going to skyrocket and they will most likely gain weight. I think the OP's question was about whether he should never eat apples bc of the sugar content. I think apples are fine - it's all about moderation :)


I think (and some responses in his thread tell me this also) some folks think apples (or most fruit) are a "free food" when we talk of moderation. IOW, eat pizza and cake in moderation, and eat all of the fruit you want. I eat fruit, in moderation, as I do other foods. Now, if we limit our observations to people on this, and other sites like this, we can clearly see that "moderation" here means something different than it does to the average person. I lost 90 lbs, and I credit most of that to limiting my intake of sugar, including processed (sugary) foods and fruits. Most of the other foods I eat now, I always eaten before. Bread may be the one exception. I severely limit my bread intake to usually 3-4 slices a week. In truth, it wasn't much higher before I changed me eating habits.

I am diabetic, and I have maintained all along that my body (as most diabetics are similar) deals with sugar (all sugar) differently than non-diabetics. With that said, a non-diabetic responds well to the type of diet a "healthy" (unmedicated) diabetic eats. The same cannot always be said of the opposite.

My goal is not get folks to stop eating fruit (don't care actually). Just giving another perspective. My way worked for me, and continues to work.
Nothing said here on the topic is going to cause me to change what I am doing. I suspect that is true of most here. :)

BrotherWolf
01-24-2012, 06:13 PM
http://fitnessbaddie.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/picture-8.png

OutOfStep
01-24-2012, 06:22 PM
4000 cals is two days worth of food for me (srs). I do eat one piece of fruit (banana) per day however. If I could eat 4000 cals a day, I'd be more than happy to eat 1/2 of it in fruit, and I could.

Maybe one day you'll overcome your eating disorder and actually start to build some muscle, instead of being obsessed with starving it all off. Then you won't have to eat like you're Karen Carpenter anymore.

DaniGrrl
01-24-2012, 06:38 PM
I think (and some responses in his thread tell me this also) some folks think apples (or most fruit) are a "free food" when we talk of moderation. IOW, eat pizza and cake in moderation, and eat all of the fruit you want. I eat fruit, in moderation, as I do other foods. Now, if we limit our observations to people on this, and other sites like this, we can clearly see that "moderation" here means something different than it does to the average person. I lost 90 lbs, and I credit most of that to limiting my intake of sugar, including processed (sugary) foods and fruits. Most of the other foods I eat now, I always eaten before. Bread may be the one exception. I severely limit my bread intake to usually 3-4 slices a week. In truth, it wasn't much higher before I changed me eating habits.

I am diabetic, and I have maintained all along that my body (as most diabetics are similar) deals with sugar (all sugar) differently than non-diabetics. With that said, a non-diabetic responds well to the type of diet a "healthy" (unmedicated) diabetic eats. The same cannot always be said of the opposite.

My goal is not get folks to stop eating fruit (don't care actually). Just giving another perspective. My way worked for me, and continues to work.
Nothing said here on the topic is going to cause me to change what I am doing. I suspect that is true of most here. :)

I think you should do whatever works for you. As a diabetic, I can see where you would limit things such as certain fruits that are higher in carbs and sugar content - makes total sense for someone like you. Everyone's body works differently and some things work better than others for every person. How everyone works their macros is a personal choice, and what foods you fill your macros with is a personal choice.

But in relation to the OP, it just seems like he is questioning whether apples are "bad" because of the sugar content. I don't think that's the case.

MecGen
01-24-2012, 06:42 PM
Yeh but what about GI.....waitaminute what thred am I in?

Nevermind

ironwill2008
01-24-2012, 07:44 PM
Yeh but what about GI.....waitaminute what thred am I in?

Nevermind

Back IN before the GI-tards descend upon this thread with their quack theories based on a single, hundred-year-old study done on diabetics, fasted and then fed a single food item. :rolleyes:

dbx
01-24-2012, 07:54 PM
Gee, for a minute I thought I was back in the Nuttrition Forum again.....

I eat a banana with raspberries with my oatmeal, every morning. I eat an apple [u]every[u] afternoon.

Please, may Alan Aragon appear and strike down the fruit Nazis.......

One of the oldest myths in BBing and diet that appears to have more incarnations than...just about anything :rolleyes:

latebloomingmom
01-24-2012, 07:55 PM
had an apple today
one of those honey crisp apples
oh man so crisp sweet and juicy.

was awesome, especially since I had been avoiding a lot of carbs for a extended cycle.
was blissThose are my favorites!:)





sidenote: diabetics have special dietary restrictions to consider when deciding what to eat.
some people have also been instructed to lose weight due to doctor's orders...

ironwill2008
01-24-2012, 10:06 PM
Please, may Alan Aragon appear and strike down the fruit Nazis.......

One of the oldest myths in BBing and diet that appears to have more incarnations than...just about anything :rolleyes:
ROFL! I kinda expected him to show up in the "which carbs should I eat" thread, but I guess he was face-palming too hard to get involved.

Something tells me that there will be ample future opportunities though.

v1rt
01-24-2012, 10:27 PM
Which actually makes us fat, sugar or calories?

CardinalRB34
01-24-2012, 10:44 PM
Which actually makes us fat, sugar or calories?

both and neither... hahahahha. too many calories can make you fat. too much sugar can inhibit fat loss and promote fat storage.

MontyMagpie
01-24-2012, 10:52 PM
I just learned few minutes ago that an apple has a 18.9g of sugar based from this link. WOW, that's a high number I guess. Is it?

http://caloriecount.about.com/calories-apples-i9003

Should I stay away from apples?

I do. I eat berries and the occasional banana.

I have 10 different vegetables in a day. I prefer vegetables to fruit. My favourites are brocs, brussels, cauli, spinach, pees, carrots, swede, beetroot.

kimm4
01-24-2012, 11:01 PM
Please, may Alan Aragon appear and strike down the fruit Nazis.......

:rolleyes:

We can only hope...:D

JOHN GARGANI
01-25-2012, 04:49 AM
Gee, for a minute I thought I was back in the Nuttrition Forum again.....

I eat a banana with raspberries with my oatmeal, every morning. I eat an apple [u]every[u] afternoon.

Please, may Alan Aragon appear and strike down the fruit Nazis.......

One of the oldest myths in BBing and diet that appears to have more incarnations than...just about anything :rolleyes:


THANK YOU!!!....

and the example of the gals eating a TRAY of fruit, 3 times a day? how is that an indicator of what fruit can or can't do for you?

like anything else, when eaten in relative moderation, they are part and parcel of a healthy diet....

ljimd
01-25-2012, 06:29 AM
The controversy appears to be caused by POV of the poster. The noob comes looking for advice about a healthy diet (lifestyle) and gets it. Advanced bodybuilders (loose use of the term) or self proclaimed diet gurus (even looser use of the term) chime in with cutting techniques they use or advocate that seem to run counter to the common wisdom for the average trainee, many consider this unnecessary and sometimes not helpful. Add some anecdotal evidence and a controversy is born. Bottom line is if the OP is spurred on to investigate and experiment, it's all good. JMO

freebirdmac
01-25-2012, 06:48 AM
Apples are one of the world's healthiest foods http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=131275563

Alan Aragon on fructose alarmism http://www.alanaragonblog.com/2010/01/29/the-bitter-truth-about-fructose-alarmism/

latebloomingmom
01-25-2012, 08:30 AM
awwww I liked this thread better when we were talking about all the wonderful ways to eat apples..
I have a hard time believing that something that is grown in nature on a tree, has fiber and vits/min's can be 'bad'.

Marius_Ursus
01-25-2012, 08:42 AM
awwww I liked this thread better when we were talking about all the wonderful ways to eat apples..
I have a hard time believing that something that is grown in nature on a tree, has fiber and vits/min's can be 'bad'.

OK, how about cooking them down with cranberries and cinnamon?

latebloomingmom
01-25-2012, 08:45 AM
hmmmm and serving them with what? poultry?



yes, if you dump a lot of cinnamon and sugar on em
granted they now become dessert but even that is ok once in awhile..

Marius_Ursus
01-25-2012, 09:52 AM
hmmmm and serving them with what? poultry?



yes, if you dump a lot of cinnamon and sugar on em
granted they now become dessert but even that is ok once in awhile..

Dessert? You can tell you're not from the northeast.

Served with pork loin. :)

CardinalRB34
01-25-2012, 10:09 AM
I have much respect for Alan Aragon. He is a very good writer and very knowledgeable. But for every expert that has an article or a book or a theory... there's as many books and articles and theories that contradict it. FOr every scientific study proving one thing.. there's another study that disregards it. How can you bank on everything this one guy says. FOr the most part.. his theories are great for the average dieter, looking to lean out a bit. But he's off when it comes to getting as lean as you can in as short of time possible. But if you want to revere him as the "all knowing one" than that's fine. I have seen first hand how some minor things can make a difference in your physique. If his diets and techniques are what works for you and you're content - than that's great. God forbid anybody has a different opinion to share than some of the jerks on here. It makes some of you so angry that a new guy comes in here and shares different info than what you want to spread.

CardinalRB34
01-25-2012, 10:12 AM
Maybe one day you'll overcome your eating disorder and actually start to build some muscle, instead of being obsessed with starving it all off. Then you won't have to eat like you're Karen Carpenter anymore.

I do agree with this, just not with the way you put it. hahahahaha. 4,000 calories is my daily total when I first start dieting. And yes.. I lose weight with this amount of food.

ironwill2008
01-25-2012, 10:27 AM
Dessert? You can tell you're not from the northeast.
Or the Appalachians! :)




Served with pork loin. :)
I haven't cooked up one of those in ages; I should probably do something abojut that.

I most often eatpork by charcoal-grilling some butterfly pork chops with some mesquite chips added to the coals.

Marius_Ursus
01-25-2012, 10:31 AM
Or the Appalachians! :)


I haven't cooked up one of those in ages; I should probably do something abojut that.

I most often eatpork by charcoal-grilling some butterfly pork chops with some mesquite chips added to the coals.

Man, that sounds good.

There's no end to apple sides you make for pork. One time my wife made a sauce for a pork loin that was made of apples and chilis cooked down so much, they were almost liquid. It was sweet and spicy...awesome.

Repped for Appalachia. We're at the north end of the chain. :)

ironwill2008
01-25-2012, 10:41 AM
There's no end to apple sides you make for pork. One time my wife made a sauce for a pork loin that was made of apples and chilis cooked down so much, they were almost liquid. It was sweet and spicy...awesome.

And that sounds good as well.

There are so many ways to prepare food to make it much more tasty and enjoyable without adding a boatload of unnecessary calories.

I've said it before, but it bears repeating--if you hate your food, you're doing it wrong.

Kodokan
01-25-2012, 11:09 AM
Can't resist...

http://data.whicdn.com/images/14700594/apple-disney-dreams-snow-white-Favim.com-142405_thumb.jpg

If only I could make myself trade the popcorn and biscuits for apples...

alan aragon
01-25-2012, 11:55 AM
I have much respect for Alan Aragon. He is a very good writer and very knowledgeable. But for every expert that has an article or a book or a theory... there's as many books and articles and theories that contradict it. FOr every scientific study proving one thing.. there's another study that disregards it. How can you bank on everything this one guy says. FOr the most part.. his theories are great for the average dieter, looking to lean out a bit. But he's off when it comes to getting as lean as you can in as short of time possible. But if you want to revere him as the "all knowing one" than that's fine. I have seen first hand how some minor things can make a difference in your physique. If his diets and techniques are what works for you and you're content - than that's great. God forbid anybody has a different opinion to share than some of the jerks on here. It makes some of you so angry that a new guy comes in here and shares different info than what you want to spread. Have you ever stopped to realize that maybe you're not quite understanding that fruit can fit into almost any diet that isn't carb-restricted to the point of attempted carb elimination?

Kelechi Opara hired me to get him as lean as possible in 5 weeks while retaining as much muscle as possible (he's a bodybuilding.com spokesmodel). Here are his 5-week progress pics of being in a caloric deficit, but switching over from traditional BBing sources to getting his carbs from fruit, milk, white bread, & cereal. But obviously, he nailed his macros - he just happened to enjoy his diet a lot more. He even consumed taboos like fruit juice & cookies. Obviously the latter foods were a minor portion of his intake (the majority of his foods were whole/unrefined), but he fit them into his macronutrient targets.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w196/alanaragon/kelechiprep.jpg

DocTats
01-25-2012, 12:00 PM
Sometimes, I see questions such as this all over the internet and wonder if John Grimek ever worried about stuff like this. Then I answer to myself "no way" and go on with my life....

Just a thought....

x-trainer ben
01-25-2012, 12:07 PM
The controversy appears to be caused by POV of the poster. The noob comes looking for advice about a healthy diet (lifestyle) and gets it. Advanced bodybuilders (loose use of the term) or self proclaimed diet gurus (even looser use of the term) chime in with cutting techniques they use or advocate that seem to run counter to the common wisdom for the average trainee, many consider this unnecessary and sometimes not helpful. Add some anecdotal evidence and a controversy is born. Bottom line is if the OP is spurred on to investigate and experiment, it's all good. JMO

^^ OP, here is THE answer, with emphasis on his last sentence!!

alan aragon
01-25-2012, 12:41 PM
One more tidbit for the OP. Apples are an excellent carb source for dieters because not only are they nutritious, but their ability to satiate ranks among the highest of all foods tested:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4078941&d=1327520417

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4078951&d=1327520418

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7498104

latebloomingmom
01-25-2012, 12:43 PM
Dessert? You can tell you're not from the northeast.

Served with pork loin. :)
really well that sounds pretty good..
ya know what ya call it when you
put apples, cinn, sugar together right? Pie:)
or applecrisp or applesauce...

ironwill2008
01-25-2012, 12:43 PM
As always, thanks, for the info, Alan.

alan aragon
01-25-2012, 12:43 PM
Alan, the two links to the attachments don't seem to work. Is the problem on my end or yours?I zapped the post because one of the graphics wan't cropped right & ended up too small. It's fixed now.


As always, thanks, for the info, Alan.Always a pleasure.

discdoggie
01-25-2012, 12:48 PM
In after Alan Aragon! :D

freebirdmac
01-25-2012, 01:37 PM
Science always wins :)

BrotherWolf
01-25-2012, 02:25 PM
In after Alan Aragon! :D

LOL.... you just put on 2 lbs of lean muscle

Marius_Ursus
01-25-2012, 02:29 PM
really well that sounds pretty good..
ya know what ya call it when you
put apples, cinn, sugar together right? Pie:)
or applecrisp or applesauce...

Well, yeah. It's basically applesauce with cranberries. :)

Brackneyc
01-25-2012, 03:28 PM
Maybe one day you'll overcome your eating disorder and actually start to build some muscle, instead of being obsessed with starving it all off. Then you won't have to eat like you're Karen Carpenter anymore.

Do I look like I am wasting away? I am your height, and 195lbs. I know my maint levels, and eat very close to them. I know what would happen to me if I ate 4000 cals a day (or even 3000), and it would not matter what I ate at 4000/3000 cals, I'd be fat as hell. No one has ever accused me of eating too little. I know I lack muscular development. I am working on that.

ArchAngel'73
01-25-2012, 03:50 PM
One more tidbit for the OP. Apples are an excellent carb source for dieters because not only are they nutritious, but their ability to satiate ranks among the highest of all foods tested:

Thanks for the index, sir!
-this rocks

Frnkd
01-25-2012, 05:34 PM
http://www.thatsfit.com/2009/12/02/appetite-suppressants/

Apples can be an appetite suppressant

dbx
01-25-2012, 07:02 PM
Thanks for the index, sir!
-this rocks

I thought most here (O-35) might have know this fact. And by gawd, whether you're an "older" person of just a BBer on a high protein diet, you'll damn well appreciate the fiber that apples provide! :). This is the very reason that I eat one in the afternoon; it carries me through until dinner and provides energy, too. LOL, I have become an apple connoisseur over the course of the past 5 or 6 yrs :). Fuji's, Braeburns, Galas, Pink Lady, Jazz & Ambrosia are my normal "picks", depending which one might be on sale.

MontyMagpie
01-25-2012, 07:07 PM
awwww I liked this thread better when we were talking about all the wonderful ways to eat apples..
I have a hard time believing that something that is grown in nature on a tree, has fiber and vits/min's can be 'bad'.

I wish it were that simple, man has complicated nature. Most of the apples were tampered with by man and pesticides, and man-made waxes to keep them shiny make it a nice chemical cocktail Make sure you wash them thoroughly.

MontyMagpie
01-25-2012, 07:11 PM
Maybe one day you'll overcome your eating disorder and actually start to build some muscle, instead of being obsessed with starving it all off. Then you won't have to eat like you're Karen Carpenter anymore.

He's diabetic. He has always got to watch his diet. My father in law has to watch his fruit intake too.

latebloomingmom
01-25-2012, 09:43 PM
I wish it were that simple, man has complicated nature. Most of the apples were tampered with by man and pesticides, and man-made waxes to keep them shiny make it a nice chemical cocktail Make sure you wash them thoroughly.
true but...I have seen the apples left to grow on their own..we call those deer apples around here..
kinda wormy;)

Marius_Ursus
01-26-2012, 08:26 AM
I thought most here (O-35) might have know this fact. And by gawd, whether you're an "older" person of just a BBer on a high protein diet, you'll damn well appreciate the fiber that apples provide! :). This is the very reason that I eat one in the afternoon; it carries me through until dinner and provides energy, too. LOL, I have become an apple connoisseur over the course of the past 5 or 6 yrs :). Fuji's, Braeburns, Galas, Pink Lady, Jazz & Ambrosia are my normal "picks", depending which one might be on sale.

Do you ever get heritage apples when they're in season? The flavor can't be beat.

billb7581
01-26-2012, 08:44 AM
I eat 3 pieces of fruit a day, and have lost weight, hell I am eating 3 turkey dogs and an entire can of baked beans for lunch.... oh noes baked beans have carbs!

CardinalRB34
01-26-2012, 09:38 AM
Thank you Alan for sharing that. That dude is ripped no question. Honestly, his "before" photo is what most people aspire to have for their "after" photo. Some people have the genetics that if they have structure and limitations to what they eat - they can get ripped a lot more easily than a lot of other people. There's some people that can eat bon bons all day long... add a little cardio and start lifting intensely and get ripped. Your test subject IS NOT the average person. HE LOOKS great and no disrespect to him or you.. you got your client looking shredded without being too restrictive.

And for the most part.. I agree with you... calories and macros are the number 1 factor. And I certainly don't mind an apple, dessert, or a burger as part of a structured "cheat" or an occasional snack. My problem with allowing certain foods to some people is that if they have a small serving of something desirable... they have control issues. Then for the "average" dieter... as they are losing weight and calorically restricted... they start getting into preservation mode a little. In this state I have found that even the simplest of cheat foods or anything with sugar will store much more readily than something more fibrous. Then my other argument would be the proof in the pudding... Bodybuilders seem to always be ahead of their time... They have the leanest, hardest, grainiest, most muscular physiques on the planet. Why haven't they adapted these "other" foods in to their prep. Why is Branch and Jay always choking down the plainest, most dry food you can imagine during their prep. Why are these guys snacking on chicken, red potatoes, and vegetables at the expo. If your theories applied to most everybody... you'd think they'd have something calorically dense like a cookie and wash it down with a protein shake.

With all that being said. I have much respect for you. In a lot of practical senses and for the average dieter.. I think your methods works but I question whether or not it's the best method for the average person who wants to get as lean as he can as quickly as possible. There are other experts just as qualified to speak on the matter who have their clients as strict as a prep school girls dad. Thank you for sharing.

alan aragon
01-26-2012, 10:29 AM
Thank you Alan for sharing that. That dude is ripped no question. Honestly, his "before" photo is what most people aspire to have for their "after" photo. Some people have the genetics that if they have structure and limitations to what they eat - they can get ripped a lot more easily than a lot of other people. There's some people that can eat bon bons all day long... add a little cardio and start lifting intensely and get ripped. Your test subject IS NOT the average person. HE LOOKS great and no disrespect to him or you.. you got your client looking shredded without being too restrictive.

And for the most part.. I agree with you... calories and macros are the number 1 factor. And I certainly don't mind an apple, dessert, or a burger as part of a structured "cheat" or an occasional snack. My problem with allowing certain foods to some people is that if they have a small serving of something desirable... they have control issues. Then for the "average" dieter... as they are losing weight and calorically restricted... they start getting into preservation mode a little. In this state I have found that even the simplest of cheat foods or anything with sugar will store much more readily than something more fibrous. Then my other argument would be the proof in the pudding... Bodybuilders seem to always be ahead of their time... They have the leanest, hardest, grainiest, most muscular physiques on the planet. Why haven't they adapted these "other" foods in to their prep. Why is Branch and Jay always choking down the plainest, most dry food you can imagine during their prep. Why are these guys snacking on chicken, red potatoes, and vegetables at the expo. If your theories applied to most everybody... you'd think they'd have something calorically dense like a cookie and wash it down with a protein shake.

With all that being said. I have much respect for you. In a lot of practical senses and for the average dieter.. I think your methods works but I question whether or not it's the best method for the average person who wants to get as lean as he can as quickly as possible. There are other experts just as qualified to speak on the matter who have their clients as strict as a prep school girls dad. Thank you for sharing.I appreciate the civility & thought you put into your response, but I still think you're mixing up your logic. Kelechi Opara is genetically gifted, yes. But my point is, I was assigned to get him as lean as possible within a severely limited time (37 days), while retaining as much muscle as possible so he wouldn't simply look lean but flattened out & stringy. With a lot at stake & so little time to work with, don't you think I would have had him avoid fruit if that was the best course of action? Also, you can't point to Kelechi's genetics, & then use obviously genetically gifted, non-natty top pros Jay & Branch to support your argument. You seem to be unaware that there are plenty of natural "pro" competitors that don't stick to a typical bro-diet of brown rice, chicken breast, & broc**** (or some variation of that ilk) - and they are jacked & shredded come contest time. Some of them are members right here on this site. You seem to be painfully unaware of this. Another thing you should realize is that not everyone takes a scientific approach to dieting down. The vast majority follow rules they've heard from one guy, who heard it from another guy, and so on. If you trace most of these 'rules' back to their origin you'll find nothing more than unsubstantiated nonsense. On the subject of science, do you have a scientific justification of why someone should avoid fruit while dieting? I'd like to hear it.

CardinalRB34
01-26-2012, 11:57 AM
I appreciate the civility & thought you put into your response, but I still think you're mixing up your logic. Kelechi Opara is genetically gifted, yes. But my point is, I was assigned to get him as lean as possible within a severely limited time (37 days), while retaining as much muscle as possible so he wouldn't simply look lean but flattened out & stringy. With a lot at stake & so little time to work with, don't you think I would have had him avoid fruit if that was the best course of action? Also, you can't point to Kelechi's genetics, & then use obviously genetically gifted, non-natty top pros Jay & Branch to support your argument. You seem to be unaware that there are plenty of natural "pro" competitors that don't stick to a typical bro-diet of brown rice, chicken breast, & broc**** (or some variation of that ilk) - and they are jacked & shredded come contest time. Some of them are members right here on this site. You seem to be painfully unaware of this. Another thing you should realize is that not everyone takes a scientific approach to dieting down. The vast majority follow rules they've heard from one guy, who heard it from another guy, and so on. If you trace most of these 'rules' back to their origin you'll find nothing more than unsubstantiated nonsense. On the subject of science, do you have a scientific justification of why someone should avoid fruit while dieting? I'd like to hear it.

thank you for always keeping your debates civil. It seems some of your followers would always like to insult anybody who has a different opinion. I don't think fruit should be avoided entirely throughout an entire diet. or avoided for general people that want to shed some bodyfat. I think it should be avoided for those that want to get the best results in a shorter period of time or for the less genetically gifted to get extreme results. While your client above had great results.. he already looked dammm good.

How do you feel about TEF? and is that something you consider? If we choose to eat foods with a higher TEF rating... theoretically we could eat more food, and satiety wouldn't be an issue. Plus meats, fiber, and fats have plenty of a satiety effect. Why would we need to add substances that have a higher sugar content or foods that raise blood sugar more rapidly. Maybe I'm an insulin control freak. While insulin does play many beneficial roles - there are times when we wouldn't want an increase of insulin secretion would we? Isn't it true that when insulin levels are elevated - the body can not utilize body fat for energy? Why would we, even for a few seconds, take ourselves more out of a state of fat burning... even it is very little. A little everyday will make a lot out of the course of a 12-20 week diet.

Alan.. I'm not a writer or a researcher. I have much respect to you and people who do their homework like you. All my practical info has come from a collection of what other people have tried, written, or have theorized. What I do know is the results of my average client. I have worked with a girl who was training with somebody else. She had a trainer who's main concern was calories and macros. and that's it. 4 weeks out from her show - she looked like she was 12 weeks out. She said that for weeks she had not dropped. She looked flat and fat. hahahahaha.. When I took her over - it was as simple as restricting her food choices and actually increasing her food amount. well... I did change up her whole workout philosophy too... but that's not the point. She ended up leaning out nice in those 4 weeks and took first in the Lenda Murray NPC figure division. The simple changes I made were to cut out fruit and dairy. Add more oats and green vegetables in their place. I also added more whole meat proteins vs. the shakes she was drinking.

Plus, with my own experiences... let me point out.. that I don't diet at all. Not until I look in the mirror and realize I'm too fat. Then I will diet down or enter a contest... etc. Before I have tried the macro and calorie as my only concern diet. I did get good results. Later on I took the Farah, Hany, Nichols approach to dieting. Lean meats, restrictive with my carb selections, and plenty of good fats. And even with this approach I feel I could actually eat more - and not feel so drained. I didn't have to do nearly as much cardio either. So I don't know.

What I do know is this. I highly doubt everybody is the same. hahahahahaha.. I know that your approach does work GREAT for a lot of people... then I know some people who may not get the same results. Those people may have to be more choosy. There's also those people who swear LOW carbs are better, which I can't see being the best method, but they swear it's the best method for them. I just honestly don't think being lenient with food choices is the best method for everybody.

Thank you for taking the time to post here. It's been a pleasure to learn from you and read your philosophies. I did learn some things with the satiety index too. And by all means... I mean no disrespect to you or your client. hopefully you have found me to be respectful with this topic.

alan aragon
01-26-2012, 12:41 PM
How do you feel about TEF? and is that something you consider? If we choose to eat foods with a higher TEF rating... theoretically we could eat more food, and satiety wouldn't be an issue. Plus meats, fiber, and fats have plenty of a satiety effect. Why would we need to add substances that have a higher sugar content or foods that raise blood sugar more rapidly. Maybe I'm an insulin control freak. While insulin does play many beneficial roles - there are times when we wouldn't want an increase of insulin secretion would we? Isn't it true that when insulin levels are elevated - the body can not utilize body fat for energy? Why would we, even for a few seconds, take ourselves more out of a state of fat burning... even it is very little. A little everyday will make a lot out of the course of a 12-20 week diet. Here's what I'm not understanding about your approach. What EXACTLY is it about fruit that you find to be inherently counterproductive for the goal of fat loss? This is the crux of my contention, and it's also the crux of this thread's topic. Please describe the mechanism behind how fitting fruit into your carb intake budget would antagonize fat loss.

MontyMagpie
01-26-2012, 12:45 PM
I eat 3 pieces of fruit a day, and have lost weight, hell I am eating 3 turkey dogs and an entire can of baked beans for lunch.... oh noes baked beans have carbs!

Tinned products with tomato sauces are one of the worst hidden sugar culprits. One tin of baked beans can contain as much as 30g of sugar. Make every calorie count especially if you are a diet. Sugar is wasted calories. You could be making better food choices than sugar for calories.

ninjad00d
01-26-2012, 12:49 PM
I just had an apple after my lunch.
feelsgoodman

latebloomingmom
01-26-2012, 12:56 PM
Tinned products with tomato sauces are one of the worst hidden sugar culprits. One tin of baked beans can contain as much as 30g of sugar. Make every calorie count especially if you are a diet. Sugar is wasted calories. You could be making better food choices than sugar for calories.
yep baked beans are pretty high in sugar that is why I make my own...spaghetti sauce? some are better then others but making your own tastes better anyhow.

vanessa40
01-26-2012, 12:59 PM
I just had an apple after my lunch.
feelsgoodman

I just had two..i guess someone better come cut me out of my house ;)

latebloomingmom
01-26-2012, 01:00 PM
I just had two..i guess someone better come cut me out of my house ;)
tsk tsk....apple piggie:)

vanessa40
01-26-2012, 01:05 PM
tsk tsk....apple piggie:)

LOL..It's better than jelly beans..wait..no it's not ;)

billb7581
01-26-2012, 01:12 PM
Tinned products with tomato sauces are one of the worst hidden sugar culprits. One tin of baked beans can contain as much as 30g of sugar. Make every calorie count especially if you are a diet. Sugar is wasted calories. You could be making better food choices than sugar for calories.

20g sugar 17g fiber.

I just figured out my lunch

28.5 g fat 260 cals
70 g carbs 280 cals
30 g protein 120 cals

I am on a 3000 calorie diet, I think I'll manage.

billb7581
01-26-2012, 01:20 PM
yep baked beans are pretty high in sugar that is why I make my own...spaghetti sauce? some are better then others but making your own tastes better anyhow.

If you're adding sugar to make your own baked beans, what is the difference? If you don't add brown sugar they are not baked beans.

vladoversic
01-26-2012, 01:37 PM
I just learned few minutes ago that an apple has a 18.9g of sugar based from this link. WOW, that's a high number I guess. Is it?



Should I stay away from apples?
All fruits contain fructose but fruit are good for your health, if you eat them in the morning or after a workout it's ok it wont make you fat.

x-trainer ben
01-26-2012, 02:23 PM
Here's what I'm not understanding about your approach. What EXACTLY is it about fruit that you find to be inherently counterproductive for the goal of fat loss? This is the crux of my contention, and it's also the crux of this thread's topic. Please describe the mechanism behind how fitting fruit into your carb intake budget would antagonize fat loss.

Let me take a stab at it:
tef=thermic effect of food

Fats have thermic effect approximately 3%. Dietary fat is very easy to process.
Carbohydrates induced thermogenic response is about 7%.
Proteins are hard to process. Protein is the most thermogenic nutrient, with the thermic effect close to 30%.

and this quote by him:
"Why would we need to add substances that have a higher sugar content or foods that raise blood sugar more rapidly. Maybe I'm an insulin control freak. While insulin does play many beneficial roles - there are times when we wouldn't want an increase of insulin secretion would we? Isn't it true that when insulin levels are elevated - the body can not utilize body fat for energy? Why would we, even for a few seconds, take ourselves more out of a state of fat burning... even it is very little. A little everyday will make a lot out of the course of a 12-20 week diet. "

I think he is so concerned about insulin stopping fat use as fuel that it makes apples a no no. Just trying to interpret his paragraph b4 he comes back?? I may be wrong though.

thepowerwithin
01-26-2012, 02:24 PM
All fruits contain fructose but fruit are good for your health, if you eat them in the morning or after a workout it's ok it wont make you fat.

Nah, apples or any fruit or any carb or any food is fine any time of the day.

The only reason you gain is eating above your caloric maintenance; not the food nor the time.

alan aragon
01-26-2012, 02:42 PM
Let me take a stab at it:
tef=thermic effect of food

Fats have thermic effect approximately 3%. Dietary fat is very easy to process.
Carbohydrates induced thermogenic response is about 7%.
Proteins are hard to process. Protein is the most thermogenic nutrient, with the thermic effect close to 30%.

and this quote by him:
"Why would we need to add substances that have a higher sugar content or foods that raise blood sugar more rapidly. Maybe I'm an insulin control freak. While insulin does play many beneficial roles - there are times when we wouldn't want an increase of insulin secretion would we? Isn't it true that when insulin levels are elevated - the body can not utilize body fat for energy? Why would we, even for a few seconds, take ourselves more out of a state of fat burning... even it is very little. A little everyday will make a lot out of the course of a 12-20 week diet. "

I think he is so concerned about insulin stopping fat use as fuel that it makes apples a no no. Just trying to interpret his paragraph b4 he comes back?? I may be wrong though.Still doesn't make sense, sorry.

MontyMagpie
01-26-2012, 02:56 PM
Is vegetables better than Apple ? discuss. What makes the apple so special, why not another piece of fruit or berries or veg could do the job better.

Is the popular phrase AN APPLE A DAY KEEPS THE DOCTOR AWAY the reason for apples popularity?

latebloomingmom
01-26-2012, 02:58 PM
If you're adding sugar to make your own baked beans, what is the difference? If you don't add brown sugar they are not baked beans.
right....I just try to add less and yes, you have to put in some molasses too..

DaniGrrl
01-26-2012, 02:59 PM
Is vegetables better than Apple ? discuss. What makes the apple so special, why not another piece of fruit or berries or veg could do the job better.

Is the popular phrase AN APPLE A DAY KEEPS THE DOCTOR AWAY the reason for apples popularity?

Sheesh, maybe people just like apples. You should fill your macros with foods you like. Some people enjoy apples more than berries. If it works for their carb allowance, go for it. The OP was asking whether the sugar content of an apple makes it a bad choice. The answer is no.

/thread.

MontyMagpie
01-26-2012, 02:59 PM
right....I just try to add less and yes, you have to put in some molasses too..

Molasses yummy.

latebloomingmom
01-26-2012, 03:08 PM
Sheesh, maybe people just like apples. You should fill your macros with foods you like. Some people enjoy apples more than berries. If it works for their carb allowance, go for it. The OP was asking whether the sugar content of an apple makes it a bad choice. The answer is no.

/thread.
oh man....now all fruit is evil? pears? raspberries? grapes? bananas? hmmmmm beware the produce isle....

alan aragon
01-26-2012, 03:23 PM
oh man....now all fruit is evil? pears? raspberries? grapes? bananas? hmmmmm beware the produce isle....Satan tempted Eve with an apple, and thus ensued the downfall of mankind. We should have taken a hint!

x-trainer ben
01-26-2012, 03:23 PM
oh man....now all fruit is evil? pears? raspberries? grapes? bananas? hmmmmm beware the produce isle....

ha ha only because of pesticides, but we won't go there :P

latebloomingmom
01-26-2012, 03:24 PM
Satan tempted Eve with an apple, and thus ensued the downfall of mankind. We should have taken a hint!
sure.......blame the women...sheesh:)

MontyMagpie
01-26-2012, 03:34 PM
Sheesh, maybe people just like apples. You should fill your macros with foods you like. Some people enjoy apples more than berries. If it works for their carb allowance, go for it. The OP was asking whether the sugar content of an apple makes it a bad choice. The answer is no.

/thread.

I eat for nutrition and bodybuilding.

When I look at an apple. I'm not that impressed.

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fruits-and-fruit-juices/1809/2

Comparing to blackberries which are far far superior.

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fruits-and-fruit-juices/1848/2

Which is what my point is all along. There are better foods out there.

Now I had one of Dat Dere American apples. Washington red apples. Worst apple I ever tasted. I had one bite and threw it away.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/04/AR2005080402194.html

DaniGrrl
01-26-2012, 03:51 PM
I eat for nutrition and bodybuilding.

When I look at an apple. I'm not that impressed.

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fruits-and-fruit-juices/1809/2

Comparing to blackberries which are far far superior.

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fruits-and-fruit-juices/1848/2

Which is what my point is all along. There are better foods out there.

Have you read this entire thread? In which there is scientific data saying an apple is good for you? Again, you prove you just like to argue. If you don't like apples, aren't impressed, then don't eat them. Again, the title of the thread is "I love apples." Inquiring whether he really shouldn't be eating them bc of sugar. If he loves them, he should work them into his macros. If you'd rather have blackberries, go for it. Personally, I prefer blueberries and strawberries to blackberries. And that's what I'm gonna eat, because that's what I like. I also will have an apple occasionally. I"ll probably have some applesauce tonight, in fact.

Whether one food is "better" or "worse" is of no consequence, because the fact of the matter is there's fiber and nutrients in all fruits.

Truly I don't know why I am arguing with you because you will insist on having the last word and insisting that you're right.

alan aragon
01-26-2012, 03:57 PM
I eat for nutrition and bodybuilding.

When I look at an apple. I'm not that impressed.

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fruits-and-fruit-juices/1809/2

Comparing to blackberries which are far far superior.

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fruits-and-fruit-juices/1848/2

Which is what my point is all along. There are better foods out there.

Now I had one of Dat Dere American apples. Washington red apples. Worst apple I ever tasted. I had one bite and threw it away.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/04/AR2005080402194.htmlHow could you possibly be red?

MontyMagpie
01-26-2012, 03:58 PM
Have you read this entire thread? In which there is scientific data saying an apple is good for you? Again, you prove you just like to argue. If you don't like apples, aren't impressed, then don't eat them. Again, the title of the thread is "I love apples." Inquiring whether he really shouldn't be eating them bc of sugar. If he loves them, he should work them into his macros. If you'd rather have blackberries, go for it. Personally, I prefer blueberries and strawberries to blackberries. And that's what I'm gonna eat, because that's what I like. I also will have an apple occasionally. I"ll probably have some applesauce tonight, in fact.

Whether one food is "better" or "worse" is of no consequence, because the fact of the matter is there's fiber and nutrients in all fruits.

Truly I don't know why I am arguing with you because you will insist on having the last word and insisting that you're right.

First of all, this isn't an argument, it is a discussion. Children have arguments, adults have discussion. If you would like to forward your evidence of an apple's superiority over blackberry then let's here it. I've presented the case for a blackberry.

Here is a blueberry, although nice but expensive not quite as good as blackberry in nutrition.

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fruits-and-fruit-juices/1851/2

With bodybuilding it isn't about eating for taste, the rest of the population eats for taste. I eat for my body.

alan aragon
01-26-2012, 04:15 PM
With bodybuilding it isn't about eating for taste, the rest of the population eats for taste. I eat for my body.Wow, good thing you're just an anonymous member on a message board & not someone in any position to be taken seriously. There's more to each fruit species than its vitamin & mineral content. I'll just leave it at that - you seem to be either hopelessly orthorexic, or just trolling.

ArchAngel'73
01-26-2012, 04:18 PM
Wow, good thing you're just an anonymous member on a message board & not someone in any position to be taken seriously. There's more to each fruit species than its vitamin & mineral content. I'll just leave it at that - you seem to be either hopelessly orthorexic, or just trolling.

We have had the honor of him trolling here for a few months.
Its all good, most of us are aware of him/her and anytime he/she writes something that could harm anybody we're all over like sh*t in a diaper.

alan aragon
01-26-2012, 04:26 PM
We have had the honor of him trolling here for a few months.
Its all good, most of us are aware of him/her and anytime he/she writes something that could harm anybody we're all over like sh*t in a diaper.Okay, good to know. That post of his was RIDICULOUS.

For anyone interested, here's a scientific literature review on apple phytochemicals & their health benefits: Abstract (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15140261) | Full Text (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC442131/?tool=pubmed)

freebirdmac
01-26-2012, 04:50 PM
Sheesh, maybe people just like apples. You should fill your macros with foods you like. Some people enjoy apples more than berries. If it works for their carb allowance, go for it. The OP was asking whether the sugar content of an apple makes it a bad choice. The answer is no.

/thread.

There are good reasons why he's in the red :)

MontyMagpie
01-26-2012, 06:27 PM
This bunny proves the point well. Had he ate veg he'd be fine.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2092186/Thats-carrot-Video-huge-bunny-eating-banana-cradled-owners-arms.html

MontyMagpie
01-26-2012, 06:30 PM
Wow, good thing you're just an anonymous member on a message board & not someone in any position to be taken seriously. There's more to each fruit species than its vitamin & mineral content. I'll just leave it at that - you seem to be either hopelessly orthorexic, or just trolling.

Prove the apple is superior to the blackberry. I am waiting. Dark colour veg and fruit will be superior.

pvsampson
01-26-2012, 06:35 PM
you seem to be either hopelessly orthorexic, or just trolling.

This.

freebirdmac
01-26-2012, 06:40 PM
This bunny proves the point well. Had he ate veg he'd be fine.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2092186/Thats-carrot-Video-huge-bunny-eating-banana-cradled-owners-arms.html

The bunny is fine. In case you don't realize it bunnies are small animals. You have to scale for size. Carrots are also high in sugar and need to be limited in their diet. It's no different than not overdoing sugar in a human. Scale appropriate. Just like us they need their essential nutrients which come from pellets, hay, and safe fresh greens. Fruits and carrots are fine to fill out the diet and can easily be accommodated while keeping the bunny at an appropriate weight. BTW, lettuce is bad for them and there's a ton of plants poisonous to them that are fine for us.

<-------Owner of an English Spot

Jtbny
01-26-2012, 06:43 PM
Prove the apple is superior to the blackberry. I am waiting. Dark colour veg and fruit will be superior.

Proof....
http://katyskubicle.tripod.com/ffood/apple6.gif

BrotherWolf
01-26-2012, 06:44 PM
I eat for nutrition and bodybuilding.




I am sold .. I wanna have a 6 pack like yours.. no more apples for me

pvsampson
01-26-2012, 06:50 PM
Next thing Monty will tell us LIFTING is bad for us!!!!

MontyMagpie
01-26-2012, 06:51 PM
Proof....
http://katyskubicle.tripod.com/ffood/apple6.gif

Don't you do any research?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0801/is_12_65/ai_n7586604/

There's a valuable nutrient you should get to know better: anthocyanins, the natural colorants that belong to a group of plant compounds called flavonoids. They're responsible for most of the red, purple and blue colors found in fruits, vegetables, legumes, flowers and other plants. They play important health-promoting roles when consumed, providing powerful antioxidant, anti-inflammatory and anticarcinogenic activities. The foods with the highest anthocyanin content are those with the darkest blue, purple or red coloring, such as bilberries, black raspberries, black currants, blackberries and blueberries. To best obtain the benefits of this compound and up your natural antioxidant intake, consume these fruits and consider eating greater quantities of beans. Those with dark pigments, such as black beans (which are actually a very dark purple), adzuki beans and red kidney beans, have extremely high levels of anthocyanins, as recently discovered in a study by the USDA. Their research team found that black beans contained the highest level, about 10 times more overall antioxidants than an equivalent serving of oranges.

THE DARK SIDE OF FRUIT

This table lists the anthocyanin content (in mg per 100 grams fresh
weight) of several fruits. The obvious trend is the darker the fruit,
the higher the anthocyanin content.

FRUIT ANTHOCYANIN
(mg/100 g fresh fruit)

Bilberry 450
Raspberry (black) 300
Black currant 250
Blackberry 200
Blueberry 200
Partridgeberry/lingonberry 130
Grape (red) 120
Cranberry 60
Strawberry 45
Raspberry (red) 40
Currant (red) 15


No apple here!

freebirdmac
01-26-2012, 06:51 PM
Prove the apple is superior to the blackberry. I am waiting. Dark colour veg and fruit will be superior.

You really are an idiot. Each fruit, and for that matter vegetable, brings something different to the table. Which is why you should eat a variety of foods. But if you want a specific example, oxalates. People with kidney or gallbladder issues may have to limit foods containing oxalates such as blackberries. No such problem with apples. Want another? Apples provide an anti-asthma effect not seen in any other fruit or vegetable. BTW, blueberries offer more than blackberries but all of the above still applies.

freebirdmac
01-26-2012, 06:54 PM
Don't you do any research?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0801/is_12_65/ai_n7586604/



No apple here!

Because they have polyphenols instead.

MontyMagpie
01-26-2012, 06:58 PM
You really are an idiot. Each fruit, and for that matter vegetable, brings something different to the table. Which is why you should eat a variety of foods. But if you want a specific example, oxalates. People with kidney or gallbladder issues may have to limit foods containing oxalates such as blackberries. No such problem with apples. Want another? Apples provide an anti-asthma effect not seen in any other fruit or vegetable. BTW, blueberries offer more than blackberries but all of the above still applies.

No.

FRUIT ANTHOCYANIN
(mg/100 g fresh fruit)

Bilberry 450
Raspberry (black) 300
Black currant 250
Blackberry 200
Blueberry 200

Blackberry has superior nutritional vitamins and minerals to blueberry. Blueberry are hyped up because it's profit. I eat blueberry but they are expensive. Blackberries are free, so no need for hype. Wild and not tampered by man. Go out and pick some when they are in season.

MontyMagpie
01-26-2012, 07:04 PM
Because they have polyphenols instead.

Blackberries have high polyphenols.

While at their peak season, indulge in blackberries for a nutritious snack or dessert. One cup of fresh blackberries has 62 calories, 1 gram of fat, 15 carbohydrates, 8 grams of fiber, 2 grams of protein and only 1 mg of sodium. Here are the top 10 health benefits of eating blackberries:

1. Blackberries are one of the top ten foods containing antioxidants.

2. Blackberries are packed with polyphenols helping to prevent cancer and heart disease.

3. Blackberries are filled with anthocyanins (antioxidants which give blackberries their deep purple color) which help in memory retention and the risk of hypertension.

4. Blackberries are said to strengthen blood vessels, help fight heart disease and help improve eyesight.

5. The high tannin content of blackberries help tighten tissue, relieve intestinal inflammation, and help reduce hemorrhoids and stomach disorders.

6. Ohio State University found that blackberries may protect against esophageal cancer, a cancer caused by gastric reflux disease.

7. Blackberries have shown to protect against other types of cancers. They contain phytoestrogens (plant estrogens), a compound believed to play a vital role in preventing breast and cervical cancer.

8. Blackberries are high in Vitamin C, Vitamin A, Vitamin E, Vitamin K, Manganese and fiber.

9. The high fiber content of blackberries help reduce risk of intestinal disease and the risk of developing diabetes.

10. Blackberries are a healthy food choice that kids and adults love. They are a great way to refuel after a hard workout and help aid in fighting obesity.

DaniGrrl
01-26-2012, 07:04 PM
Next thing Monty will tell us LIFTING is bad for us!!!!

No, he'll just have boneheaded ideas of the right way to go about it. We've been privy to his wisdom in the Female section.

pvsampson
01-26-2012, 07:07 PM
No.

FRUIT ANTHOCYANIN
(mg/100 g fresh fruit)

Bilberry 450
Raspberry (black) 300
Black currant 250
Blackberry 200
Blueberry 200

Blackberry has superior nutritional vitamins and minerals to blueberry. I eat blueberry but they are expensive. Blackberries are free. Wild and not tampered by man. Go out and pick some when they are in season.

Blackberries are a f###en weed in this country!!!(Introduced from Britain!!) We spray them with herbicide so we can grow more meat!!!

freebirdmac
01-26-2012, 07:14 PM
No.

FRUIT ANTHOCYANIN
(mg/100 g fresh fruit)

Bilberry 450
Raspberry (black) 300
Black currant 250
Blackberry 200
Blueberry 200

Blackberry has superior nutritional vitamins and minerals to blueberry. Blueberry are hyped up because it's profit. I eat blueberry but they are expensive. Blackberries are free, so no need for hype. Wild and not tampered by man. Go out and pick some when they are in season.

Use this site http://www.whfoods.com/foodstoc.php. Read it. Try to understand. There is science involved so don't hurt yourself. While blackberries are high in anthocyanins, other fruits offer same/other/better nutrients which is why they didn't make the list. Focusing on one flavonoid is short-sighted.

Jtbny
01-26-2012, 07:14 PM
Don't you do any research?


You ask me this yet start a thread about using creatine, the most researched supplement in the history of supplements.....

Well played sir!

freebirdmac
01-26-2012, 07:16 PM
You ask me this yet start a thread about using creatine, the most researched supplement in the history of supplements.....

Well played sir!

He doesn't know how to research, do critical thinking, or even understand what he reads.

pvsampson
01-26-2012, 07:20 PM
He doesn't know how to research, do critical thinking, or even understand what he reads.

Serious troll is serious

MontyMagpie
01-26-2012, 07:24 PM
You ask me this yet start a thread about using creatine, the most researched supplement in the history of supplements.....

Well played sir!

I know about creatine, what I don't know is how much everyone is taking etc. Personal things to each and everyone of us.

dbx
01-26-2012, 07:48 PM
Do you ever get heritage apples when they're in season? The flavor can't be beat.

Have never heard of these. Perhaps they aren't available in my region (SE). Hell, I never heard of Jazz apples until last year, or Pink Lady apples until about 4yrs ago. All I know is that, I love several types of damned apples :). As a kid, my favorites were all sour (Macs, Granny Smith, etc..), but now it's all about being sweet, crisp and juicy.

alan aragon
01-26-2012, 09:04 PM
Blackberries have high polyphenols.

While at their peak season, indulge in blackberries for a nutritious snack or dessert. One cup of fresh blackberries has 62 calories, 1 gram of fat, 15 carbohydrates, 8 grams of fiber, 2 grams of protein and only 1 mg of sodium. Here are the top 10 health benefits of eating blackberries:

1. Blackberries are one of the top ten foods containing antioxidants.

2. Blackberries are packed with polyphenols helping to prevent cancer and heart disease.

3. Blackberries are filled with anthocyanins (antioxidants which give blackberries their deep purple color) which help in memory retention and the risk of hypertension.

4. Blackberries are said to strengthen blood vessels, help fight heart disease and help improve eyesight.

5. The high tannin content of blackberries help tighten tissue, relieve intestinal inflammation, and help reduce hemorrhoids and stomach disorders.

6. Ohio State University found that blackberries may protect against esophageal cancer, a cancer caused by gastric reflux disease.

7. Blackberries have shown to protect against other types of cancers. They contain phytoestrogens (plant estrogens), a compound believed to play a vital role in preventing breast and cervical cancer.

8. Blackberries are high in Vitamin C, Vitamin A, Vitamin E, Vitamin K, Manganese and fiber.

9. The high fiber content of blackberries help reduce risk of intestinal disease and the risk of developing diabetes.

10. Blackberries are a healthy food choice that kids and adults love. They are a great way to refuel after a hard workout and help aid in fighting obesity.I don't care if you're insistent on using non-scientific sources to support your orthorexic trolling campaign, but at least link or mention the source you cut/pasted from (this was actually written by journalist/cookbook author Alison Lewis):

http://www.ingredientsinc.net/2011/07/10-health-benefits-of-blackberries/

pvsampson
01-26-2012, 09:24 PM
^^^^^ Ummm...anything Monty???????????



EDIT:Love the Orthorexic bit!!!!!(And blackberries are a weed)

ironwill2008
01-26-2012, 09:44 PM
Alan, you have the patience of a saint.

Everyone here already knows the mag pie dude is nothing more than a troll.

I'm still awaiting a reply to your post #93 from the cardinal guy. I too am interested in the science behind his statements.

pvsampson
01-26-2012, 09:47 PM
Alan, you have the patience of a saint.

Everyone here already knows the mag pie dude is nothing more than a troll

Quite true.

And I have no problem calling him (Monty) on it.

Come at me Monty!!!

CardinalRB34
01-26-2012, 10:22 PM
Here's what I'm not understanding about your approach. What EXACTLY is it about fruit that you find to be inherently counterproductive for the goal of fat loss? This is the crux of my contention, and it's also the crux of this thread's topic. Please describe the mechanism behind how fitting fruit into your carb intake budget would antagonize fat loss.

well... correct me if I'm wrong. Does fruit or any simple sugar elevate insulin levels? It's not my theory... I didn't make it up. Is insulin not primarily a storage hormone? Has fruit fallen into some conspiracy that it's sugar doesn't effect insulin?

Is the thermal effect of food even something to consider in your opinion? Let's pretend fruit is not even an issue anymore. I'm over it. What about the crackers, juice box, or whatever else somebody wants to consume while dieting. As long as it fits your daily calories and macros - is that all of it? I'm sure you appreciate nutrient dense foods - that's why fruit is allowed with your diets.

My stance is this. Why would a dieter ever consume 50g whey, 1 apple, and 14 wheat crackers covered in cream cheese... when you get a similar macro breakdown with a large lean steak, 1 cup of cooked brown rice, 2 cups of green vegetables, and a handful of almonds? Forgive me if the 2 scenarios aren't quite equal in total calories and macro breakdown... I'm shooting this out randomly. Let's pretend they are the same value calorie and macro percentages... There's a difference in how the 2 types of food affects your body. Isn't there? and if there is... isn't that something to consider for the average dieter or any dieter? With the 2 scenarios you have the 2nd scenario which is much more nutrient dense and has a higher thermal effect.. which would inevitably help the cause of fat burning.

Alan... in all sincerity... I hope my questions don't sound disrespectful. Your insight is appreciated and everything you say is taken whole heartedly. I love storming the brains of well educated and accomplished individuals. thank you for your time!!

CardinalRB34
01-26-2012, 10:43 PM
Let me take a stab at it:
tef=thermic effect of food

Fats have thermic effect approximately 3%. Dietary fat is very easy to process.
Carbohydrates induced thermogenic response is about 7%.
Proteins are hard to process. Protein is the most thermogenic nutrient, with the thermic effect close to 30%.

and this quote by him:
"Why would we need to add substances that have a higher sugar content or foods that raise blood sugar more rapidly. Maybe I'm an insulin control freak. While insulin does play many beneficial roles - there are times when we wouldn't want an increase of insulin secretion would we? Isn't it true that when insulin levels are elevated - the body can not utilize body fat for energy? Why would we, even for a few seconds, take ourselves more out of a state of fat burning... even it is very little. A little everyday will make a lot out of the course of a 12-20 week diet. "

I think he is so concerned about insulin stopping fat use as fuel that it makes apples a no no. Just trying to interpret his paragraph b4 he comes back?? I may be wrong though.

that's kind of what I was saying, but in more detail. The TEF's listed above is more or less an average. For instance.. simple carbs like fruit have a lower thermic response.. a much lower response than some complex carbs. I hate using the words simple and complex. SUGAR would have a really low thermal response for instance. So for somebody to suggest that 40g of sugar is as tolerable on a weight loss plan as 40g of carbs from brown rice or a red potato... it makes a big difference. Again.. the way the types of food affect our bodies physiologically can't be ignored either. How does that sugar affect our insulin response vs. the oats? That's why I'm an advocate with food choices... not just macro's. PLUS - the all the other nutrients you get from brown rice instead of the wheat crackers... or whatever else is on the list... the foods that are nutrient dense vs. empty foods can't be ignored. Most people know that some foods... like celery.. have a very high thermal response. It takes more calories to digest, burn, and utilize the calories in a stalk of celery than it has in it. Food choices make a difference. A carb is not the same as all carbs.

Whey protein - also would have a much lower thermal response than a steak... etc...

there's variance in types of fats too.

Here's what I was briefly getting at with another post about a week ago. I can diet or can get clients to diet eating their maintenance in calories or even more than their maintenance. Think about it.. if you're eating foods that average a thermic response of an average of 20%... eating 3,000 calories a day is like eating 2,400 calories. But with all that extra food - aren't we as bodybuilders getting extra nutrients, minerals, vitamins, micronutrients, etc... that will enable our body's to function more efficiently. Yes.. this is more or less theories.... I can't back it up with homework. I can back it up with real life results and the changes I have witnessed.

The negative thing with what I propose is... it takes another whole level of discipline.

CardinalRB34
01-26-2012, 10:52 PM
Alan, you have the patience of a saint.

Everyone here already knows the mag pie dude is nothing more than a troll.

I'm still awaiting a reply to your post #93 from the cardinal guy. I too am interested in the science behind his statements.

thought you weren't reading my posts.... as they are a waste of your time. hahahahaha.... jk. In all sincerity I didn't mean to offend you with my opinions. I did come across strong with my beliefs, but a lot of us do. I am passionate about helping others and that's why I "waste" so much time here lately. Plus I'm still recovering from my neck surgery - nothing better to do... lol.

CardinalRB34
01-26-2012, 10:54 PM
BTW - I've been called a troll my 2nd day here. hahahahaah.. All I wanted to do was share my opinions.

ironwill2008
01-26-2012, 11:12 PM
well... correct me if I'm wrong. Does fruit or any simple sugar elevate insulin levels? It's not my theory... I didn't make it up. Is insulin not primarily a storage hormone? Has fruit fallen into some conspiracy that it's sugar doesn't effect insulin?

Is the thermal effect of food even something to consider in your opinion? Let's pretend fruit is not even an issue anymore. I'm over it. What about the crackers, juice box, or whatever else somebody wants to consume while dieting. As long as it fits your daily calories and macros - is that all of it? I'm sure you appreciate nutrient dense foods - that's why fruit is allowed with your diets.

My stance is this. Why would a dieter ever consume 50g whey, 1 apple, and 14 wheat crackers covered in cream cheese... when you get a similar macro breakdown with a large lean steak, 1 cup of cooked brown rice, 2 cups of green vegetables, and a handful of almonds? Forgive me if the 2 scenarios aren't quite equal in total calories and macro breakdown... I'm shooting this out randomly. Let's pretend they are the same value calorie and macro percentages... There's a difference in how the 2 types of food affects your body. Isn't there? and if there is... isn't that something to consider for the average dieter or any dieter? With the 2 scenarios you have the 2nd scenario which is much more nutrient dense and has a higher thermal effect.. which would inevitably help the cause of fat burning.

Alan... in all sincerity... I hope my questions don't sound disrespectful. Your insight is appreciated and everything you say is taken whole heartedly. I love storming the brains of well educated and accomplished individuals. thank you for your time!!

As in every single one of your posts in this forum, rather than answer one pointed question asked of you, instead you ask a dozen others. If you are so knowledgeable (after all, you're the trainer of pro bodybuilders), why can't you simply answer Mr. Aragon's question?

Let me quess; you'll either ignore this post, or spout off another 10,000 word reply that says nothing.

Past that, I'll just let Mr. Aragon reply to this himself. He certainly doesn't need my help here.

alan aragon
01-26-2012, 11:34 PM
well... correct me if I'm wrong. Does fruit or any simple sugar elevate insulin levels? It's not my theory... I didn't make it up. Is insulin not primarily a storage hormone? Has fruit fallen into some conspiracy that it's sugar doesn't effect insulin?1st off, fruit contains simple sugars, but it's not particularly insulinogenic compared to the range of common foods. Have a look (Holt et al, 1997 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9356547)):

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4083791&d=1327645106

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4083801&d=1327645107

^Notice how apples' insulinogenic capacity is similar to fish & brown rice. But ultimately, the carbohydrate-insulin model of fat gain is outdated & just plain wrong. Here's a 5-part series on insulin that's written by one of the most scientifically diligent people I know, James Krieger. I encourage you to take the time to read it so you can disindoctrinate yourself from the mythically brotastic info you deem correct:

http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=319
http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=459
http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=536
http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=571
http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=690


Is the thermal effect of food even something to consider in your opinion? Let's pretend fruit is not even an issue anymore. I'm over it. What about the crackers, juice box, or whatever else somebody wants to consume while dieting. As long as it fits your daily calories and macros - is that all of it? I'm sure you appreciate nutrient dense foods - that's why fruit is allowed with your diets.

My stance is this. Why would a dieter ever consume 50g whey, 1 apple, and 14 wheat crackers covered in cream cheese... when you get a similar macro breakdown with a large lean steak, 1 cup of cooked brown rice, 2 cups of green vegetables, and a handful of almonds? Forgive me if the 2 scenarios aren't quite equal in total calories and macro breakdown... I'm shooting this out randomly. Let's pretend they are the same value calorie and macro percentages... There's a difference in how the 2 types of food affects your body. Isn't there? and if there is... isn't that something to consider for the average dieter or any dieter? With the 2 scenarios you have the 2nd scenario which is much more nutrient dense and has a higher thermal effect.. which would inevitably help the cause of fat burning. I find it ironic that you're so focused on the thermic effect of food, yet to quote the diet you endorse, "Lean meats, restrictive with my carb selections, and plenty of good fats." You do realize that on the whole, carbohydrate's thermic effect is greater than fat, right? In any case, I've carried on in-depth about diet quality in a recent article, here's yet more reading for you:

http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutrition/the-dirt-on-clean-eating/

Here's a chart to help quell your misconception of whey somehow being nutritionally inferior to beef:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4050041&d=1326784001
Source: http://www.jssm.org/vol3/n3/2/v3n3-2pdf.pdf

pvsampson
01-26-2012, 11:36 PM
^^^^^ (Am I allowed to rep mods???) Outstanding reply!!!








"Mythically brotastic".....LOFL!!

Marius_Ursus
01-27-2012, 03:52 AM
No.

FRUIT ANTHOCYANIN
(mg/100 g fresh fruit)

Bilberry 450
Raspberry (black) 300
Black currant 250
Blackberry 200
Blueberry 200

Blackberry has superior nutritional vitamins and minerals to blueberry. Blueberry are hyped up because it's profit. I eat blueberry but they are expensive. Blackberries are free, so no need for hype. Wild and not tampered by man. Go out and pick some when they are in season.

Good luck eating nothing but anthocyanins.

Let us know how that works out for you.

CardinalRB34
01-27-2012, 07:58 AM
I find it ironic that you're so focused on the thermic effect of food, yet to quote the diet you endorse, "Lean meats, restrictive with my carb selections, and plenty of good fats." You do realize that on the whole, carbohydrate's thermic effect is greater than fat, right? In any case, I've carried on in-depth about diet quality in a recent article, here's yet more reading for you: - ALan

I usually start a diet with about a 30/50/20 ratio and then may change it to a 40/40/20. Fats would make up about 20% of my daily calories. While thermic effect is just one of the many considerations - I can't ignore the health benefits of essential fats. Carbs are not limited with consumption.. just choices of food. When I'm choosing carb sources... my main concern is if they're nutrient dense, 2nd is the insulin response, 3rd is the amounts of energy I get from consuming them - is it longer lasting energy or quick short term energy?? and 4th could be the Thermal effect. With all that being said.. I had no idea apples had a comparable insulin response to that of brown rice. I knew apples were one of the more preferable fruits, as well as berries, when it comes to keeping blood sugar in check. I also have come to believe that items higher in sugar provide instant energy... while others like oatmeal can give you more constant energy. Is there any validity to that?

As far as whey protein... I'm well aware of the biological value. I've read recent studies where even whey protein can create a sort of insulin spike just in itself. Again when considering protein sources I consider satiety, amino acid make up, other nutrients it contains, and thermal effect would be lower on that list. And while whey is great to feed your muscles immediately, due to it digesting easily... whole food sources feed your muscles continuously throughout a prolonged period of time, due to the slower digestion, breakdown, and assimilation of those dense meat proteins.

Again... your scientific research and homework you have done is outstanding. I learned a little bit about insulin response etc. My only thing with that is... it seems for every article or research done on a particular topic.. there's as many contradicting it. And if there isn't... it's because the scientific community is still behind the bodybuilding community. If the best of the best aren't dieting on pasta, crackers, breads, and fruits... you can be sure there's a reason why. For every scientific reason that says it could be ok for them to eat those aformentioned items - the community as a whole has come to believe it's not as effective. And that reason with me and probably most of them is through trial and error. I can't fathom or logically see 12 servings of whey protein, 4 servings of pasta, 8 servings of fruit, 20 crackers, and 6 spoons of cream cheese daily... leaning anyone out as efficiently as 5 servings of chicken, steak, or fish, 2 servings of whey, 2 cups of oats, 2 servings of brown rice, 2 sweet potatoes, 4 servings of green vegetables, 2 servings of natural peanut butter, and 2 handfuls of almonds or spoons of extra virgin olive oil. Again - let's pretend it's the same in calories and same macro breakdown. Will scenario "A" provide the same results as scenario "B?" WIth the average person?

CardinalRB34
01-27-2012, 08:10 AM
and with all due respect.. I want you to have the last word and I will concede this debate. It was a pleasure for me to read your opinions - backed with all that data. I wish I could be more of a bookworm kinda guy.. and self confessing... as you all should be aware - these diet strategies are not my own.. they are a collaboration of what I got from some of the world's top bodybuilding trainers. With that being said... I'm no way saying that bodybuilders are dieting the perfect way... there's something we can learn from them and people who present the scientific evidence such as Alan. I'd almost make you a deal.. get me as lean as that guy in those pics - and I'll eat anything you say to eat. And for the record... I do have people consume whey post workout. And I don't cut fruit out of a diet until 4-6 weeks out. Fruit post workout and maybe with breakfast... so I'm not a complete fruit Nazi. hahahahaha.. AND I'm definitely not a troll. Later!!

MontyMagpie
01-27-2012, 10:57 AM
Alan where's the vegetables on that chart? Also where's the berries. Cabbage, brocs, turnip etc low GI

Looks like a chart full of American junk food mostly. You didn't answer my question on berries and made a point about a source of my post.

alan aragon
01-27-2012, 11:35 AM
Alan where's the vegetables on that chart? Also where's the berries. Cabbage, brocs, turnip etc low GI

Looks like a chart full of American junk food mostly. You didn't answer my question on berries and made a point about a source of my post.^^^So, is this quote above cut/pasted from a cookbook author, or is it your own? GTFO, troll.

Getsum
01-27-2012, 11:47 AM
1st off, fruit contains simple sugars, but it's not particularly insulinogenic compared to the range of common foods. Have a look (Holt et al, 1997 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9356547)):

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4083791&d=1327645106

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4083801&d=1327645107

^Notice how apples' insulinogenic capacity is similar to fish & brown rice. But ultimately, the carbohydrate-insulin model of fat gain is outdated & just plain wrong. Here's a 5-part series on insulin that's written by one of the most scientifically diligent people I know, James Krieger. I encourage you to take the time to read it so you can disindoctrinate yourself from the mythically brotastic info you deem correct:

http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=319
http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=459
http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=536
http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=571
http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=690

I find it ironic that you're so focused on the thermic effect of food, yet to quote the diet you endorse, "Lean meats, restrictive with my carb selections, and plenty of good fats." You do realize that on the whole, carbohydrate's thermic effect is greater than fat, right? In any case, I've carried on in-depth about diet quality in a recent article, here's yet more reading for you:

http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutrition/the-dirt-on-clean-eating/

Here's a chart to help quell your misconception of whey somehow being nutritionally inferior to beef:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4050041&d=1326784001
Source: http://www.jssm.org/vol3/n3/2/v3n3-2pdf.pdf

Interesting charts Alan, thanks for posting them and for the feedback man.

MontyMagpie
01-27-2012, 11:47 AM
^^^So, is this quote above cut/pasted from a cookbook author, or is it your own? GTFO, troll.

What about berries and vegetables? Answer that one not a table full of junk food. Nutrients in some of those foods you listed are abysmal. Have you not also cut and paste in your chart and info? Also no answer to berries question earlier. Still waiting.

induced_drag
01-27-2012, 11:48 AM
I had ignored this thread for a while then I saw Alan had come in with some responses....now I am going back through as I know there will be some good info!

Just wanted to personally say "thank you" to Alan for coming in from time to time and sharing your wealth of knowledge. It has really transformed my beliefs and become part of my much more balanced approach to nutrition. Thanks!

alan aragon
01-27-2012, 11:54 AM
I find it ironic that you're so focused on the thermic effect of food, yet to quote the diet you endorse, "Lean meats, restrictive with my carb selections, and plenty of good fats." You do realize that on the whole, carbohydrate's thermic effect is greater than fat, right? In any case, I've carried on in-depth about diet quality in a recent article, here's yet more reading for you: - ALan

I usually start a diet with about a 30/50/20 ratio and then may change it to a 40/40/20. Fats would make up about 20% of my daily calories. While thermic effect is just one of the many considerations - I can't ignore the health benefits of essential fats. Carbs are not limited with consumption.. just choices of food. When I'm choosing carb sources... my main concern is if they're nutrient dense, 2nd is the insulin response, 3rd is the amounts of energy I get from consuming them - is it longer lasting energy or quick short term energy?? and 4th could be the Thermal effect. With all that being said.. I had no idea apples had a comparable insulin response to that of brown rice. I knew apples were one of the more preferable fruits, as well as berries, when it comes to keeping blood sugar in check. I also have come to believe that items higher in sugar provide instant energy... while others like oatmeal can give you more constant energy. Is there any validity to that? Nope. Not when we're talking about fruits vs oatmeal. Both glycemic & insulinemic effect are similar for both foods (scroll up to post 151 & take a look at Table 4).


As far as whey protein... I'm well aware of the biological value. I've read recent studies where even whey protein can create a sort of insulin spike just in itself. Again when considering protein sources I consider satiety, amino acid make up, other nutrients it contains, and thermal effect would be lower on that list. And while whey is great to feed your muscles immediately, due to it digesting easily... whole food sources feed your muscles continuously throughout a prolonged period of time, due to the slower digestion, breakdown, and assimilation of those dense meat proteins. Why does it have to be either/or? A diet with animal flesh as well as protein powder is perfectly fine.


Again... your scientific research and homework you have done is outstanding. I learned a little bit about insulin response etc. My only thing with that is... it seems for every article or research done on a particular topic.. there's as many contradicting it. And if there isn't... it's because the scientific community is still behind the bodybuilding community. If the best of the best aren't dieting on pasta, crackers, breads, and fruits... you can be sure there's a reason why. For every scientific reason that says it could be ok for them to eat those aformentioned items - the community as a whole has come to believe it's not as effective. And that reason with me and probably most of them is through trial and error.You're mistaken. Bodybuilders throughout the decades have dieted down into contest shape by using a STAGGERINGLY wide range of approaches, especially with regard to food choice. Take 10 different contest prep gurus & I'll show you 10 distinctly different approaches. Please don't be as naive as to think everyone makes their athletes do postworkout whey + dextrose (or name any other BBing cliche). You can almost divide the contest prep approaches by eras. But when you look at the physiques each era produced (especially from the '80s onward), they mainly differ in the size rather than the conditioning of the heavyweights, who now are basically giants - due more to advances in pharmacology than training & diet.
I can't fathom or logically see 12 servings of whey protein, 4 servings of pasta, 8 servings of fruit, 20 crackers, and 6 spoons of cream cheese daily... leaning anyone out as efficiently as 5 servings of chicken, steak, or fish, 2 servings of whey, 2 cups of oats, 2 servings of brown rice, 2 sweet potatoes, 4 servings of green vegetables, 2 servings of natural peanut butter, and 2 handfuls of almonds or spoons of extra virgin olive oil. Again - let's pretend it's the same in calories and same macro breakdown. Will scenario "A" provide the same results as scenario "B?" WIth the average person?What you're doing is presenting a false dichotomy. Where in the real world would anyone recommend a crappy diet like scenario A? For you to ask this question tells me you haven't read all the links I provided. Please take the time to do that. We can conjure up all kinds of hypothetical comparisons, but what's the practical use if none of them are realistic? But to indulge your far-fetched comparison, and also stay on-topic, the 8 fruits in scenario A would likely be the trump card. Research has repeatedly shown that including whole fruit (apples included) to the diet can clinch the weight loss advantage:

"Our results provide sound evidence to raise the currently recommended amount of fruit in the daily diet. These findings could be important for nutritional counselors advising patients on weight management through a diet containing additional lower energy density fruits, such as apples and pears, since the lower energy density contributes to overall lower energy intake and, therefore, higher weight loss."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18439712

"We found that the fruit group had a greater reduction in energy intake compared with the oat group. [...] Therefore, eating three fruits per day may decrease energy intake due to greater satiety."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12620529

OutOfStep
01-27-2012, 11:55 AM
and with all due respect.. I want you to have the last word and I will concede this debate. It was a pleasure for me to read your opinions - backed with all that data. I wish I could be more of a bookworm kinda guy.. and self confessing... as you all should be aware - these diet strategies are not my own.. they are a collaboration of what I got from some of the world's top bodybuilding trainers. With that being said... I'm no way saying that bodybuilders are dieting the perfect way... there's something we can learn from them and people who present the scientific evidence such as Alan. I'd almost make you a deal.. get me as lean as that guy in those pics - and I'll eat anything you say to eat. And for the record... I do have people consume whey post workout. And I don't cut fruit out of a diet until 4-6 weeks out. Fruit post workout and maybe with breakfast... so I'm not a complete fruit Nazi. hahahahaha.. AND I'm definitely not a troll. Later!!

I find it rather ironic how much you were thumping the "science" drum earlier in this thread when it appears you have no scientific background and aren't well read at all on the topic of nutrition science. Then you had the gall to ask Ironwill and myself if we've read anything in the last 20 years (all the ELITE bodybuilding gurus like you have as you claim). :rolleyes: I complete my B.S. in dietetics in May and I have 20 years of real world, in the gym experience. What are your credentials?

alan aragon
01-27-2012, 12:00 PM
What about berries and vegetables? Answer that one not a table full of junk food. Nutrients in some of those foods you listed are abysmal. Have you not also cut and paste in your chart and info? Also no answer to berries question earlier. Still waiting.Sorry to disappoint you, but I'd rather have a conversation with my right hand.


I had ignored this thread for a while then I saw Alan had come in with some responses....now I am going back through as I know there will be some good info!

Just wanted to personally say "thank you" to Alan for coming in from time to time and sharing your wealth of knowledge. It has really transformed my beliefs and become part of my much more balanced approach to nutrition. Thanks!


Interesting charts Alan, thanks for posting them and for the feedback man.You're very welcome... And thanks for the acknowledgment!

latebloomingmom
01-27-2012, 12:02 PM
Sorry to disappoint you, but I'd rather have a conversation with my right hand.

You're very welcome... And thanks for the acknowledgment!
haaaa haaaaa....what does that mean? talk to the hand or uhhhh something else?:)

MontyMagpie
01-27-2012, 12:02 PM
Sorry to disappoint you, but I'd rather have a conversation with my right hand.


OK. You concede, thought you were a guru? All I've had from my questions is a barrage of insults. Is this how you conduct yourself you are welcome. A professional man would not conduct himself in this manner.

alan aragon
01-27-2012, 12:07 PM
I'd almost make you a deal.. get me as lean as that guy in those pics - and I'll eat anything you say to eat. And for the record... I do have people consume whey post workout. And I don't cut fruit out of a diet until 4-6 weeks out. I haven't been able to take on any new clients for over a year now. Just too busy as it is. but I can tell you this - Kelechi got into that insane condition with 2 fruits per day (at least 1 of them was an apple) the whole way through prep. Believing in the anti-fruit contest prep lore is the same as believing in the tooth fairy. Whatever makes you sleep better at night...doesn't mean it's true.

alan aragon
01-27-2012, 12:09 PM
haaaa haaaaa....what does that mean? talk to the hand or uhhhh something else?:)Please refer to the following conversation... :)


OK. You concede, thought you were a guru? All I've had from my questions is a barrage of insults. Is this how you conduct yourself you are welcome. A professional man would not conduct himself in this manner.Hello, right hand. How are you doing this morning? Good? Glad to hear it. Are you going to lift some weights today, maybe feed my mouth some fruit, even if it's not blackberries? Sounds awesome.

MontyMagpie
01-27-2012, 12:10 PM
Hello, right hand. How are you doing this morning? Good? Glad to hear it. Are you going to lift some weights today, maybe feed my mouth some fruit, even if it's not blackberries? Sounds awesome.

You really a rude man. I have no respect for rude people. Good day sir.

CardinalRB34
01-27-2012, 12:21 PM
thank you whole heartedly for your information. And thank you for being civil and respectful while sharing your information. I in no way meant any disrespect as I was asking questions... posting my opinions.

CardinalRB34
01-27-2012, 12:27 PM
I find it rather ironic how much you were thumping the "science" drum earlier in this thread when it appears you have no scientific background and aren't well read at all on the topic of nutrition science. Then you had the gall to ask Ironwill and myself if we've read anything in the last 20 years (all the ELITE bodybuilding gurus like you have as you claim). :rolleyes: I complete my B.S. in dietetics in May and I have 20 years of real world, in the gym experience. What are your credentials?

you are the man. I'm proud of you. One day I hope to be as strong as you. I asked you things in retaliation as you both were downright degrading and disrespectful. God forbid there's anyone who has a different opinion. I would list my credentials.. then you and some others would inevitably ask me to prove it. hahahaahah. Good luck with all your training bro. I conceded.. Alan is the man. Maybe one day I will pull up pie charts and graphs and back up some of my claims. Until then... everyone - I hope you all have a great weekend!!

ntrllftr
01-27-2012, 12:28 PM
As this Alan guy said... "Take 10 different contest prep gurus & I'll show you 10 distinctly different approaches."
Really good informative stuff though.

I'm gonna keep my beliefs to myself in this thread.

BUT, I just need to say one thing in here for myself and I'm sure just about everyone else's behalf...




You really a rude man. I have no respect for rude people. Good day sir.

You really need to GTFO!!!

induced_drag
01-27-2012, 12:29 PM
You're very welcome... And thanks for the acknowledgment!

Just as a follow up thank you, I now "spread the word" about nutrition to as many as I can. So many people just dont believe when I explain to them that dieting does not just mean chicken breast and broc****. Your writings have influenced me profoundly.

I found my way back to the gym about a year ago and my first task was to drop 15+ years of built up fat. Rather then approach it as I had in the past, eating typical bodybuilding diets that I always failed at, I took a totally different approach.

Ironwill directed me to your site and I read everything I could that you wrote. I structured the majority of my diet based around whole unprocessed foods. I drank lots of milk (which disproves the old avoid dairy myth), and filled in the balance of my protein requirement with whey. I ALSO left room for other things in moderation....like icecream and even pizza....all while cutting. Mentally this was HUGE for me and made this work.

Here is a quick photo sequence of what I was able to do in just under 12 weeks.

http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu187/induced_drag/comp.jpg

http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu187/induced_drag/uppercomp-1.jpg


I have gone on and gained about 6lbs lean mass since then and still maintain that composition or better.

I have now taken and use the ideas you have presented daily. I have no foods off limits. In fact, tonight is pizza night for the family and I will enjoy it right along with them. I track and make my macros work for me. I eat dinner every night with my family and this has made working out, not only possible, but a pleasureable experience in my life. I no longer feel I need to deprive myself. Funny thing too.... My recent bloodwork from a physical proves that eating this way works. My total cholesterol is 128 despite the fact that I consume large amount of meat and whey (I generally dont spring for expensive Iso's so there is a good amount of cholesterol in there).

I am not done yet....but made a major turnaround in a year. By the end of next year, I hope to be dialed in even further, woking on getting a little leaner, and hopefully adding 5-7 more lbs next year.

Again....major thanks! And giving me the tools to live a healthy, balanced, ENJOYABLE life that is family friendly (the last part being the best!)

Thank you!

alan aragon
01-27-2012, 12:41 PM
http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/gif/044159e6e0b6bbae9a223ead74efee75883a7b7.gif

Wow, not just a great transformation, but also an enviable end result!

This made my day man, seriously. I'm gonna have to show my wife your post so she doesn't forget why I spend so much time & effort doing what I do :D

OutOfStep
01-27-2012, 01:00 PM
you are the man. I'm proud of you. One day I hope to be as strong as you. I asked you things in retaliation as you both were downright degrading and disrespectful. God forbid there's anyone who has a different opinion. I would list my credentials.. then you and some others would inevitably ask me to prove it.

Awwww boo ****ing hoo. I'm the type of guy who calls things what they are and I can spot a bull****er from low earth orbit. You've danced around every question you've been asked in this thread because you simply don't know the answers. Masquerading as some nutrition guru and charging people as such. You're a ****ing fraud. That much has been made clear. Have fun bull****ting the fitness bimbos. Be sure to stop by for more lessons *******. :)

MontyMagpie
01-27-2012, 02:25 PM
I'd rather go with the brocs and the blackberries than the apples, looking at the information given. Glycemic load are all 3 at 100g, adjust the bar at the top to make them all 100g. Blackberries have that nutritional edge that I just can't ignore compare to apples, plus better weight loss properties and anti-inflammatory properties. Blackberries are more filling too. Apples bloat, constipate me, farting, I think they are not good, never liked them and I can see why.


Brocs
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2357/2


Blackberries
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fruits-and-fruit-juices/1848/2
Apples.
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fruits-and-fruit-juices/1809/2

alan aragon
01-27-2012, 02:55 PM
I'd rather go with the brocs and the blackberries than the apples, looking at the information given. Glycemic load are all 3 at 100g, adjust the bar at the top to make them all 100g. Blackberries have that nutritional edge that I just can't ignore compare to apples, plus better weight loss properties and anti-inflammatory properties. Blackberries are more filling too. Apples bloat, constipate me, farting, I think they are not good, never liked them and I can see why.


Brocs
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2357/2


Blackberries
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fruits-and-fruit-juices/1848/2
Apples.
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fruits-and-fruit-juices/1809/2Whatever you do... DO NOT eat those 3 foods in the same diet. That would be disasterous. You might hasten the onset of the Mayan Doomsday Prophecy.

latebloomingmom
01-27-2012, 03:08 PM
Whatever you do... DO NOT eat those 3 foods in the same diet. That would be disasterous. You might hasten the onset of the Mayan Doomsday Prophecy.
soooooooo sorry for hastening the doomsday prophecy....guilty:)

x-trainer ben
01-27-2012, 03:09 PM
Whatever you do... DO NOT eat those 3 foods in the same diet. That would be disasterous. You might hasten the onset of the Mayan Doomsday Prophecy.

As my fav commedian said, " no one listens to the Mexicans!" Carry on.

alan aragon
01-27-2012, 03:26 PM
Monty -- Here's a link for you, since I know you like to reference lay press releases, enjoy:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/04/110412131923.htm

BrotherWolf
01-27-2012, 03:32 PM
What we got from this informative thread is that apparently trolls don't eat apples

latebloomingmom
01-27-2012, 03:35 PM
pfft they live under bridges.....duh!:)

BrotherWolf
01-27-2012, 03:39 PM
pfft they live under bridges.....duh!:)

well that explains why

freebirdmac
01-27-2012, 03:40 PM
You have to be competent to recognize incompetency. This is why trolls don't have a clue. And never will.

alan aragon
01-27-2012, 04:12 PM
http://th02.deviantart.net/fs71/150/f/2011/126/1/8/killer_apple_by_mechaanimator-d3fptvr.jpg
http://schneide.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/onoz-omg.gif

freebirdmac
01-27-2012, 04:25 PM
http://th02.deviantart.net/fs71/150/f/2011/126/1/8/killer_apple_by_mechaanimator-d3fptvr.jpg
http://schneide.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/onoz-omg.gif

LMAO!!! The horror!

BrotherWolf
01-27-2012, 04:38 PM
http://th02.deviantart.net/fs71/150/f/2011/126/1/8/killer_apple_by_mechaanimator-d3fptvr.jpg
http://schneide.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/onoz-omg.gif

ROFLMAO......


So Alan since you're here..
what's your take on Nutella

it's my favorite pre workout meal 2 slices of bread and Nutella



:D


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9b/Nutella_ak.jpg/250px-Nutella_ak.jpg

of course I am really fat I don't look as good as the Apple troll

MontyMagpie
01-27-2012, 04:42 PM
I suppose if it weren't for the apple, we would have never discovered gravity.

http://www.weirdwarp.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Newton-Apple.jpg

DaniGrrl
01-27-2012, 04:53 PM
http://th02.deviantart.net/fs71/150/f/2011/126/1/8/killer_apple_by_mechaanimator-d3fptvr.jpg
http://schneide.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/onoz-omg.gif

roflmao!!!

-=FLEX=-
01-27-2012, 05:18 PM
I suppose if it weren't for the apple, we would have never discovered gravity.

[img]http://www.weirdwarp.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Newton-Apple.jpgg]

You're just going full troll in this sub-forum now, eh?

MontyMagpie
01-27-2012, 05:49 PM
You're just going full troll in this sub-forum now, eh?

It's the kind of answer you deserve and many others here, who I've had nothing but abuse from, I've no idea why. I suppose you'll go out and eat a bag full of apples now. Hurry with this thread they'll all be gone from the shop. Take your answer in the Creatine thread for instance which has now been removed. You think that helps? Look what kind of answers I got for my questions here from Alan. You think that is warranted? Am I the bad guy for asking questions? I got no answer from Alan but abuse. I've never given out anything like that to anyone. It's simply not acceptable.

pvsampson
01-27-2012, 05:58 PM
It's the kind of answer you deserve and many others here, who I've had nothing but abuse from, I've no idea why. I suppose you'll go out and eat a bag full of apples now. Hurry with this thread they'll all be gone from the shop. Take your answer in the Creatine thread for instance. You think that helps?

In all seriousness,do you actually wonder why? I mean it is ok to have disagreements and discussion on these forums,but you tend to be constantly argumentative and negative in the majority of your posts,as well as trying to push your beliefs beyond a reasonable acceptable level.

I mean,get called a troll once,and brush it off.Twice...maybe think about your posts.But constantly getting called a troll,maybe one should think about how one is behaving on the forum

MontyMagpie
01-27-2012, 06:04 PM
In all seriousness,do you actually wonder why? I mean it is ok to have disagreements and discussion on these forums,but you tend to be constantly argumentative and negative in the majority of your posts,as well as trying to push your beliefs beyond a reasonable acceptable level.

I mean,get called a troll once,and brush it off.Twice...maybe think about your posts.But constantly getting called a troll,maybe one should think about how one is behaving on the forum

A question and difference of an opinion is NOT argumentative. Why don't you want to here a different viewpoint? What beliefs have I pushed? I keep my faith to myself. I have a positive outlook and what is wrong with that? I'm not a troll. Why is questioning so wrong. Not once has anyone shown me here how or why an Apple is superior to a Blackberry. Not once have I been convinced by all the bull**** that has been said. You have an opinion, they do, and so do I. I beg to differ and that is that. I've not disrespected anyone here. There is nothing derogatory or negative in what I've said but I've had plenty of negative abuse and derogatory statements being made against me.

Quite frankly it is a disgrace, If I talked to people like I've been spoken to here. I'd probably be banned but others who have been here longer can speak to newcomers like that, it is plain wrong and I've seen them talk to others like that.

freebirdmac
01-27-2012, 06:09 PM
A question and difference of an opinion is NOT argumentative. Why don't you want to here a different viewpoint? What beliefs have I pushed? I keep my faith to myself. I have a positive outlook and what is wrong with that? I'm not a troll. Why is questioning so wrong. Not once has anyone shown me here how or why an Apple is superior to a Blackberry. Not once have I been convinced by all the bull**** that has been said.

The problem is you repeatedly "question" in various threads but like your girlfriend, you refuse to listen to any answers. Even from authorities like Alan. It's classic troll behavior. Otherwise what's the point of posting? There is no discussion with you people. It's your way of thinking and that's it. It's exactly like Alan put it. Might as well have a conversation with the right hand. Just stick to your pop culture reading.

MontyMagpie
01-27-2012, 06:11 PM
The problem is you repeatedly "question" in various threads but like your girlfriend, you refuse to listen to any answers. Even from authorities like Alan. It's classic troll behavior. Otherwise what's the point of posting? There is no discussion with you people. It's your way of thinking and that's it. It's exactly like Alan put it. Might as well have a conversation with the right hand. Just stick to your pop culture reading.

He didn't answer the question, he avoided it several times and give some abuse to boot. I'm still waiting what he thinks on the blackberry vs the apple. I'm not afraid to question authority. That's what we are here for. He didn't answer the question and was rude to boot. Unprofessional.

pvsampson
01-27-2012, 06:12 PM
The problem is you repeatedly "question" in various threads but like your girlfriend, you refuse to listen to any answers. Even from authorities like Alan. It's classic troll behavior. Otherwise what's the point of posting? There is no discussion with you people. It's your way of thinking and that's it. It's exactly like Alan put it. Might as well have a conversation with the right hand. Just stick to your pop culture reading.

Beat me to it!!

v1rt
01-27-2012, 06:18 PM
1st off, fruit contains simple sugars, but it's not particularly insulinogenic compared to the range of common foods. Have a look (Holt et al, 1997 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9356547)):

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4083791&d=1327645106

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4083801&d=1327645107

^Notice how apples' insulinogenic capacity is similar to fish & brown rice. But ultimately, the carbohydrate-insulin model of fat gain is outdated & just plain wrong. Here's a 5-part series on insulin that's written by one of the most scientifically diligent people I know, James Krieger. I encourage you to take the time to read it so you can disindoctrinate yourself from the mythically brotastic info you deem correct:

http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=319
http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=459
http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=536
http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=571
http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=690

I find it ironic that you're so focused on the thermic effect of food, yet to quote the diet you endorse, "Lean meats, restrictive with my carb selections, and plenty of good fats." You do realize that on the whole, carbohydrate's thermic effect is greater than fat, right? In any case, I've carried on in-depth about diet quality in a recent article, here's yet more reading for you:

http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutrition/the-dirt-on-clean-eating/

Here's a chart to help quell your misconception of whey somehow being nutritionally inferior to beef:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4050041&d=1326784001
Source: http://www.jssm.org/vol3/n3/2/v3n3-2pdf.pdf

That's awesome! Thanks man!

Didn't know my thread would reach this long. :)

Thanks for all the input folks!!!

ntrllftr
01-27-2012, 06:22 PM
He didn't answer the question, he avoided it several times and give some abuse to boot. I'm still waiting what he thinks on the blackberry vs the apple. I'm not afraid to question authority. That's what we are here for. He didn't answer the question and was rude to boot. Unprofessional.

NO! The problem is that you constantly say and ask the wrong shyt!
It's the first time I've seen this guy Alan post in this forum and yet he singled you out as a tard. Think about that for a minute.

pvsampson
01-27-2012, 06:27 PM
That's awesome! Thanks man!

Didn't know my thread would reach this long. :)

Thanks for all the input folks!!!

Apologies for the Efight hijack.

alan aragon
01-27-2012, 06:29 PM
He didn't answer the question, he avoided it several times and give some abuse to boot. I'm still waiting what he thinks on the blackberry vs the apple. I'm not afraid to question authority. That's what we are here for. He didn't answer the question and was rude to boot. Unprofessional.1st off, I don't care about professionalism. My clients who have gone out drinking with me can attest to that. 2ndly, foods cannot be judged in isolation from the diet as a whole. 3rdly, you're failing to realize that the human species can thrive & sustain longevity & a high quality of life on a tremendous range of diet types. If you genuinely think that nitpicking between fruit subtypes will make a significant dent in your lifespan (or quality of life as defined by the minimal presence of disease), then that's a bold claim. The burden of proof is on YOU to defend that claim. I already presented you with a thick & juicy scientific review of the multiple health-promoting, disease-preventing properties of apples, and also 2 studies on their anti-obesogenic properties. And you're still stuck on the asinine attempt to compare/judge individual foods in isolation from the rest of the diet? This is precisely where you're off-base, and it's precisely the twisted mindset that defines the orthorexic. I applaud your steadfast trolling though, it forced the presentation of data that normal/sane posters & lurkers might otherwise not have seen. And it also provided some entertainment...but it does get exhausting, so I guess you succeeded because pretty much everyone is annoyed?

v1rt
01-27-2012, 06:32 PM
Apologies for the Efight hijack.

Oh, it's fine bud! :D I'm used to it on different forums. Have fun guys! :) Going to start my work out very soon!!!

ntrllftr
01-27-2012, 06:34 PM
Should I eat white rice or brown rice? OMG!!!! They are sooo minutely different. Which do I eat 2 make teh gainz????? :eek:

pvsampson
01-27-2012, 06:34 PM
Oh, it's fine bud! :D I'm used to it on different forums. Have fun guys! :) Going to start my work out very soon!!!

May you be blessed with more pump and weight lifted than ever before!!!

TenThreeFive
01-27-2012, 06:36 PM
I just can't understand how people are so dense they can't understand the simple concept of calories in vs calories out. Its 80% of the equation whereas weightlifting is maybe 15% and supplements and all the other bs like GI, nutrient timing, carb loading, deloading etc.. is the other 5%. (these numbers aren't scientifically precise but they are close to the truth.

-=FLEX=-
01-27-2012, 06:52 PM
I suppose you'll go out and eat a bag full of apples now.

I don't eat apples. In fact I rarely eat fruit. I eat meat. Lots of it.


Take your answer in the Creatine thread for instance which has now been removed. You think that helps.

I think if one buys a product and cannot read the label on the product then one gets what one deserves. Sarcasm included.


Stop playing the victim. It's an insult to all the other trolls out there.

CardinalRB34
01-27-2012, 07:10 PM
Awwww boo ****ing hoo. I'm the type of guy who calls things what they are and I can spot a bull****er from low earth orbit. You've danced around every question you've been asked in this thread because you simply don't know the answers. Masquerading as some nutrition guru and charging people as such. You're a ****ing fraud. That much has been made clear. Have fun bull****ting the fitness bimbos. Be sure to stop by for more lessons *******. :)

you have self esteem issues... to fill that void - you insult, mock, and taunt anybody you can. Even someone who's bigger than you... hahahahaah. Like I said before.. I'll put my cred up against most anybody. If common sense discussion and debate doesn't make sense to you - go to the 5 year old forum. That's how you act anyways. Dammmittt.. now I almost stooped to your level.

Chris_T
01-27-2012, 07:27 PM
Just as a follow up thank you, I now "spread the word" about nutrition to as many as I can. So many people just dont believe when I explain to them that dieting does not just mean chicken breast and broc****. Your writings have influenced me profoundly.

I found my way back to the gym about a year ago and my first task was to drop 15+ years of built up fat. Rather then approach it as I had in the past, eating typical bodybuilding diets that I always failed at, I took a totally different approach.

Ironwill directed me to your site and I read everything I could that you wrote. I structured the majority of my diet based around whole unprocessed foods. I drank lots of milk (which disproves the old avoid dairy myth), and filled in the balance of my protein requirement with whey. I ALSO left room for other things in moderation....like icecream and even pizza....all while cutting. Mentally this was HUGE for me and made this work.

Here is a quick photo sequence of what I was able to do in just under 12 weeks.

http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu187/induced_drag/comp.jpg

http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu187/induced_drag/uppercomp-1.jpg


I have gone on and gained about 6lbs lean mass since then and still maintain that composition or better.

I have now taken and use the ideas you have presented daily. I have no foods off limits. In fact, tonight is pizza night for the family and I will enjoy it right along with them. I track and make my macros work for me. I eat dinner every night with my family and this has made working out, not only possible, but a pleasureable experience in my life. I no longer feel I need to deprive myself. Funny thing too.... My recent bloodwork from a physical proves that eating this way works. My total cholesterol is 128 despite the fact that I consume large amount of meat and whey (I generally dont spring for expensive Iso's so there is a good amount of cholesterol in there).

I am not done yet....but made a major turnaround in a year. By the end of next year, I hope to be dialed in even further, woking on getting a little leaner, and hopefully adding 5-7 more lbs next year.

Again....major thanks! And giving me the tools to live a healthy, balanced, ENJOYABLE life that is family friendly (the last part being the best!)

Thank you!

I hate you and am super jelly. Awesome transformation.

Nothing works for me. Not paleo, primal, the stallone diet, IIFYM, etc. etc. I've been stuck on 205 for a good long while. I feel better eating clean, but it hasn't really brought out the cuts the way that I had hoped. I'll keep working at it. In the meantime. . . very inspirational transformation.

-=FLEX=-
01-27-2012, 07:29 PM
Like I said before.. I'll put my cred up against most anybody.

You don't have any "cred" yet.

OutOfStep
01-27-2012, 08:15 PM
you have self esteem issues... to fill that void - you insult, mock, and taunt anybody you can. Even someone who's bigger than you... hahahahaah. Like I said before.. I'll put my cred up against most anybody. If common sense discussion and debate doesn't make sense to you - go to the 5 year old forum. That's how you act anyways. Dammmittt.. now I almost stooped to your level.

Nope. My self esteem is cool. No problem there. Not sure how calling a spade a spade makes me insecure. I just despise bull****ters and unauthentic mother****ers like you. Looks like I struck a nerve though. You're probably used to telling these fitness bimbos you work with pretty much anything and they hang on your every word because most of them are ****ing clueless about how to diet properly. Around here you won't get that because believe it or not, we actually have a few folks who know wtf they are talking about and didn't get their education from the pages of FLEX magazine. Keep churning out those bro diets for the ignorant.

Brackneyc
01-27-2012, 08:16 PM
I just can't understand how people are so dense they can't understand the simple concept of calories in vs calories out.

This is not universally true. There are variables which make the content of those calories pretty darn important.

TenThreeFive
01-27-2012, 08:47 PM
This is not universally true. There are variables which make the content of those calories pretty darn important.

For losing weight its calories in calories out, no variables. None.

ironwill2008
01-27-2012, 09:04 PM
.... I'll put my cred up against most anybody.....

LOL. Cred? You're delusional. In fact, Dunning–Kruger comes to mind.



Good luck meeting all your fitness goals in 2012 with your '90's mindset. Those of us who follow science-based nutrition have long since moved on.

freebirdmac
01-28-2012, 04:26 AM
For losing weight its calories in calories out, no variables. None.

That's it in a nutshell. Some have to tweak their macros due to medical conditions or food sensitivities. Of course we also know to keep protein high and not consume too few fats.

Brackneyc
01-28-2012, 07:06 AM
For losing weight its calories in calories out, no variables. None.


Are you telling me that I (me) can eat all of my cals in cake, and I will be fine?

ljimd
01-28-2012, 07:11 AM
Are you telling me that I (me) can eat all of my cals in cake, and I will be fine?

^^^^^^^^^^^^ This should be good.

Brackneyc
01-28-2012, 07:18 AM
That's it in a nutshell. Some have to tweak their macros due to medical conditions or food sensitivities. Of course we also know to keep protein high and not consume too few fats.


You know this (bolded) is where I was going. The statements above contradict the idea that is it simply cals in v cals out. You say "Of course we also know to keep protein high and not consume too few fats." You see, not everyone "knows" this. A declaration of "cals in v cals out" needs to be qualified, (as you did) so just in case someone who doesn't come to BB.com everyday will understand that even within the basic confines of "cals in v cals out," there are rules which may need to be followed for success.

Matter of fact, if I randomly tell someone to eat whatever they want as long as it fits their cals, I may be setting them up for not only failure towards their goals, I may be causing them harm. This is why whenever I talk of diet, I always qualify my statements with something alluding to the individual's overall health, and whether or not they have seen a doctor to ensure that a high protein diet, high carb or low fat diet, etc... will be ok for them.

I have spent enough time here to know that within the statement "cals in v cals out," there are rules. When I have this discussion with folks here, I am not clarifying it (cals in v cals out) for my own purposes. Hell, I lost 90lbs, I think I can safely argue that "I" get it. I am however having the discussion because a newcomer may not get it, and they may get hurt in the process.

HoustonTXMuscle
01-28-2012, 07:33 AM
.....Matter of fact, if I randomly tell someone to eat whatever they want as long as it fits their cals, I may be setting them up for not only failure towards their goals, I may be causing them harm. This is why whenever I talk of diet, I always qualify my statements with something alluding to the individual's overall health, and whether or not they have seen a doctor to ensure that a high protein diet, high carb or low fat diet, etc... will be ok for them.

I have spent enough time here to know that within the statement "cals in v cals out," there are rules. When I have this discussion with folks here, I am not clarifying it (cals in v cals out) for my own purposes. Hell, I lost 90lbs, I think I can safely argue that "I" get it. I am however having the discussion because a newcomer may not get it, and they may get hurt in the process.

I feel that this is a very wise approach. Am often approached at the gym and asked about my diet and supplements. Considering all the variables, overall health and an individual's goals, what works for one person isn't a perfect fit for everyone else. Am on spread, so I can't give reps.

MecGen
01-28-2012, 07:42 AM
You know this (bolded) is where I was going. The statements above contradict the idea that is it simply cals in v cals out. You say "Of course we also know to keep protein high and not consume too few fats." You see, not everyone "knows" this. A declaration of "cals in v cals out" needs to be qualified, (as you did) so just in case someone who doesn't come to BB.com everyday will understand that even within the basic confines of "cals in v cals out," there are rules which may need to be followed for success.

Matter of fact, if I randomly tell someone to eat whatever they want as long as it fits their cals, I may be setting them up for not only failure towards their goals, I may be causing them harm. This is why whenever I talk of diet, I always qualify my statements with something alluding to the individual's overall health, and whether or not they have seen a doctor to ensure that a high protein diet, high carb or low fat diet, etc... will be ok for them.

I have spent enough time here to know that within the statement "cals in v cals out," there are rules. When I have this discussion with folks here, I am not clarifying it (cals in v cals out) for my own purposes. Hell, I lost 90lbs, I think I can safely argue that "I" get it. I am however having the discussion because a newcomer may not get it, and they may get hurt in the process.

^^^^agreed^^^^

Its like saying eating "eat anything you want" then reading the small print - as long as it fit you cals/macros :) Its kinda like a play on words, "whats heavier pound of bricks or a pound of feathers".


I just can't understand how people are so dense

For losing weight its calories in calories out, no variables. None.

Altho I agree with what you are saying, and appreciate your passion on the subject, your avi says you joined last month, How long have you been in the nutrition game?, I have only been watching my diet for the last year and a half and would not feel qualified making statements like those above. No hate, I agree with you for the most part (except on calling people dense). All and all this is a good thred (imop), much better then some of the t-shirt or butt threds as of late.

Regards

TenThreeFive
01-28-2012, 08:51 AM
Are you telling me that I (me) can eat all of my cals in cake, and I will be fine?If all you eat is cake and its below maintenance you will lose weight. Yes. There is no debate, its fact. http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html
Is it an ideal way to do it? I don't think so. But until you understand this simple concept you won't be able to control food instead of the other way around.


^^^^agreed^^^^

Its like saying eating "eat anything you want" then reading the small print - as long as it fit you cals/macros :) Its kinda like a play on words, "whats heavier pound of bricks or a pound of feathers". You are missing the whole point.





Altho I agree with what you are saying, and appreciate your passion on the subject, your avi says you joined last month, How long have you been in the nutrition game?, I have only been watching my diet for the last year and a half and would not feel qualified making statements like those above. No hate, I agree with you for the most part (except on calling people dense). All and all this is a good thred (imop), much better then some of the t-shirt or butt threds as of late. RegardsThe usual story, was in good shape, life happened and I got real fat (over 250 lbs) I lost a lot of the weight just cutting calories and not worrying about macros. I have read everything I possibly can on the subject and use common sense to get through the bs. I put on fat frustratingly easily and have made it my goal to learn everything I can on how to defeat it. As far as blanketing with the dense statement, well I'm a bit of an azz and a cheeky one and that's just who I am and I don't plan on changing even if it does cost me greens. :D

TenThreeFive
01-28-2012, 09:01 AM
Matter of fact, if I randomly tell someone to eat whatever they want as long as it fits their cals, I may be setting them up for not only failure towards their goals, I may be causing them harm. This is why whenever I talk of diet, I always qualify my statements with something alluding to the individual's overall health, and whether or not they have seen a doctor to ensure that a high protein diet, high carb or low fat diet, etc... will be ok for them.

I have spent enough time here to know that within the statement "cals in v cals out," there are rules. When I have this discussion with folks here, I am not clarifying it (cals in v cals out) for my own purposes. Hell, I lost 90lbs, I think I can safely argue that "I" get it. I am however having the discussion because a newcomer may not get it, and they may get hurt in the process.I don't really have the fear that someone will come on here and see calories in vs calories out then run out to the market and load up on twizzle sticks and doritos, I give people more credit then that. There is no debating that if you eat anything below maintenance, you will lose weight. I don't know why that's a discussion. Now if you want to discuss body composition, health, macros, micros and all that then that is separate from weight loss. It makes it easier to get to your goals if you understand this first. Its the basics.

TenThreeFive
01-28-2012, 09:06 AM
I feel that this is a very wise approach. Am often approached at the gym and asked about my diet and supplements. Considering all the variables, overall health and an individual's goals, what works for one person isn't a perfect fit for everyone else. Am on spread, so I can't give reps.

You are awesome Houston. You never eat anything other then chicken and broc**** and I applaud your commitment. But you can have a bit of ice cream and chocolate once in a while you know. :D

cowboybiker
01-28-2012, 09:13 AM
Are you telling me that I (me) can eat all of my cals in cake, and I will be fine?I've been trying to push the twinkie diet for years.

HoustonTXMuscle
01-28-2012, 09:18 AM
You are awesome Houston. You never eat anything other then chicken and broc**** and I applaud your commitment. But you can have a bit of ice cream and chocolate once in a while you know. :D

Thanks. But not quiet true. Top sirloin, 93/7 turkey, tilipia, salmon, eggs, oatmeal, asparagus, brussel sprots, sweet potatoes and unsweetened chocolate everyday. If on one of my high carb days, will also eat skinny cow or blue bunny ice cream even tho I avoid most other dairy products.

freebirdmac
01-28-2012, 09:18 AM
Are you telling me that I (me) can eat all of my cals in cake, and I will be fine?


You know this (bolded) is where I was going. The statements above contradict the idea that is it simply cals in v cals out. You say "Of course we also know to keep protein high and not consume too few fats." You see, not everyone "knows" this. A declaration of "cals in v cals out" needs to be qualified, (as you did) so just in case someone who doesn't come to BB.com everyday will understand that even within the basic confines of "cals in v cals out," there are rules which may need to be followed for success.

Matter of fact, if I randomly tell someone to eat whatever they want as long as it fits their cals, I may be setting them up for not only failure towards their goals, I may be causing them harm. This is why whenever I talk of diet, I always qualify my statements with something alluding to the individual's overall health, and whether or not they have seen a doctor to ensure that a high protein diet, high carb or low fat diet, etc... will be ok for them.

I have spent enough time here to know that within the statement "cals in v cals out," there are rules. When I have this discussion with folks here, I am not clarifying it (cals in v cals out) for my own purposes. Hell, I lost 90lbs, I think I can safely argue that "I" get it. I am however having the discussion because a newcomer may not get it, and they may get hurt in the process.

Seriously???????? This has been discussed ad nauseum already in this thread. Since you seemed to have missed it; it *is* cals in versus cals out for weight loss. Period. However nutrition is something you cannot ignore for long. Even civilians outside of these forums know this. And unlike us, many do not care about lean muscle mass (although they should). The only qualifier I would impart to them is not to go too low on fat. But, there is no contradiction! Fat loss due to caloric deficit is not the same as nutrition. You can go on any miserable diet totally devoid of good nutrition and lose weight. The longer you are on it, think months to a year, the more likely your health will start to suffer. But short term, if you want to lose weight and eat only cake, yep, you could do it.

No one here tells people to eat nothing but "dirty" food!!!!! But you do not have to eat "clean" to lose fat.

ljimd
01-28-2012, 09:21 AM
I've been trying to push the twinkie diet for years.

U usin' low carb twinkies? http://assets.bodybuilding.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

Brackneyc
01-28-2012, 09:26 AM
I don't really have the fear that someone will come on here and see calories in vs calories out then run out to the market and load up on twizzle sticks and doritos, I give people more credit then that. There is no debating that if you eat anything below maintenance, you will lose weight. I don't know why that's a discussion. Now if you want to discuss body composition, health, macros, micros and all that then that is separate from weight loss. It makes it easier to get to your goals if you understand this first. Its the basics.


I suggest you stick around and watch the thread topics then. What you have no fear of, happens a lot around here.

TenThreeFive
01-28-2012, 09:32 AM
I suggest you stick around and watch the thread topics then. What you have no fear of, happens a lot around here.Haha, I know. I think a lot of those thread topics are started by misc kids just messin with us. They are usually single posts, they giggle, then they go back to rating girls butt pictures in mains misc. (not that I ever click on those threads)

Brackneyc
01-28-2012, 09:35 AM
Seriously???????? This has been discussed ad nauseum already in this thread. Since you seemed to have missed it; it *is* cals in versus cals out for weight loss. Period. However nutrition is something you cannot ignore for long. Even civilians outside of these forums know this. And unlike us, many do not care about lean muscle mass (although they should). The only qualifier I would impart to them is not to go too low on fat. But, there is no contradiction! Fat loss due to caloric deficit is not the same as nutrition. You can go on any miserable diet totally devoid of good nutrition and lose weight. The longer you are on it, think months to a year, the more likely your health will start to suffer. But short term, if you want to lose weight and eat only cake, yep, you could do it.

No one here tells people to eat nothing but "dirty" food!!!!! But you do not have to eat "clean" to lose fat.

I know you don't have to eat clean to lose fat. It is easy to "think" that people know the basics of good eating, and that a phrase like "cals in v cals out" is all that is left to help them hit their goals. Here are three common phrases that serve almost no purpose in the grand scheme of things, without some context: Eat more, eat less, cals in v cals out.

I am certain that if you go to some of the websites I go to (non BBing), there "typical" conversation would leave you wondering what language they were speaking.

All I am saying is that these "advices" might be better received with at least a little extra information added to them. I am not disagreeing with you. I am looking beyond the folks who have a foundation of knowledge in this area.

Most of us are not the ones asking these types of questions.

Brackneyc
01-28-2012, 09:36 AM
Haha, I know. I think a lot of those thread topics are started by misc kids just messin with us. They are usually single posts, they giggle, then they go back to rating girls butt pictures in mains misc. (not that I ever click on those threads)

I wish. :) Now, where are these butts at.

FTR, I was asking these types of questions here a few years ago. I still do ask them in PMs to specific people, when I hit a roadblock. Why do I not ask them out in the open? Because I already know the basic answers: Eat more, eat less, cals in v cals out. I have a specific goal, and those three answers are insufficient imo. I have a condition which requires a more thoughtful diet.

cowboybiker
01-28-2012, 09:38 AM
U usin' low carb twinkies? http://assets.bodybuilding.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gifvegan :D

MontyMagpie
01-28-2012, 09:51 AM
I can't fathom or logically see 12 servings of whey protein, 4 servings of pasta, 8 servings of fruit, 20 crackers, and 6 spoons of cream cheese daily... leaning anyone out as efficiently as 5 servings of chicken, steak, or fish, 2 servings of whey, 2 cups of oats, 2 servings of brown rice, 2 sweet potatoes, 4 servings of green vegetables, 2 servings of natural peanut butter, and 2 handfuls of almonds or spoons of extra virgin olive oil.

Why? Protein manufactures just love the 12 servings of whey protein because their business is profit, and is the reason why magazines are full of articles recommend massive amounts of whey next to full page ads. When do you see an add for chicken or fish in those mags? Never. A lot of bodybuilders are recommending big protein whey and casein, because it pays for them too. They are advertising the products as well as well as endorsing them. I'm not afraid to say it either. There you go.

MontyMagpie
01-28-2012, 09:55 AM
NO! The problem is that you constantly say and ask the wrong shyt!
It's the first time I've seen this guy Alan post in this forum and yet he singled you out as a tard. Think about that for a minute.

I'm not asking the wrong ****. I'm aware berries are better because they are nutrient/mineral packed unlike the apple, like I said there are better food/fruit choices out there. Berry, grapefruit, cherry, plum for instance.

cowboybiker
01-28-2012, 09:56 AM
Why? Protein manufactures just love the 12 servings of whey protein because their business is profit, and is the reason why magazines are full of articles recommend massive amounts of whey next to full page ads. When do you see an add for chicken or fish in those mags? Never. A lot of bodybuilders are recommending big protein whey and casein, because it pays for them too. They are advertising the products as well as well as endorsing them. I'm not afraid to say it either. There you go.http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa120/morpheus0117/sherlock.jpg

induced_drag
01-28-2012, 10:03 AM
I have seen somewhere where a scientific study was done on weight loss or gain. One group was fed the calories from pure sugar, the other from complex sources and whole foods. (but both being equal in calories). The weight loss, or gain (think it was a deficit diet) was EXACTLY the same between the two groups.

I think I saw it in Alan's bolg....but can not remember.

As Freebirdmac said....this is not the best from a health and nutritional standpoint, but from a weight loss perspective, it is almost identical.

MontyMagpie
01-28-2012, 10:04 AM
For losing weight its calories in calories out, no variables. None.

Wouldn't you rather eat something good for you packed with nutrients and minerals than the Twinkie bars diet?

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html

Have you heard of rabbit starvation? not so simple as calories in calories out now is it?

Also water. :) that's an important variable.

-=FLEX=-
01-28-2012, 10:09 AM
Wouldn't you rather eat something good for you packed with nutrients and minerals than the Twinkie bars diet?

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html

http://blog.wtfconcept.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/stop-posting.jpg

Brackneyc
01-28-2012, 10:15 AM
I have seen somewhere where a scientific study was done on weight loss or gain. One group was fed the calories from pure sugar, the other from complex sources and whole foods. (but both being equal in calories). The weight loss, or gain (think it was a deficit diet) was EXACTLY the same between the two groups.

I think I saw it in Alan's bolg....but can not remember.

As Freebirdmac said....this is not the best from a health and nutritional standpoint, but from a weight loss perspective, it is almost identical.

It is possible (likely) that my mistake comes from "assuming" that most folks asking about it, are interested in long-term achievement (with health in mind on some level) with the best possible results. I never considered the possibility that someone would come to a BBing forum looking for the answer on how to "just lose weight" (with no regard as to whether it was fat, or LBM). I agree, most folks "do" know how to do that (they simply lack the willingness to do it).

ntrllftr
01-28-2012, 10:16 AM
I'm not asking the wrong ****. I'm aware berries are better because they are nutrient/mineral packed unlike the apple, like I said there are better food/fruit choices out there. Berry, grapefruit, cherry, plum for instance.

Yes, some of those do have more protein/minerals etc.. BUT in the grand scheme of things... It's like splitting hairs and won't make that much of an impact rather than eating the apple.
On that note GTFO!!!

induced_drag
01-28-2012, 10:19 AM
Nothing works for me. Not paleo, primal, the stallone diet, IIFYM, etc. etc. I've been stuck on 205 for a good long while. I feel better eating clean, but it hasn't really brought out the cuts the way that I had hoped. I'll keep working at it. In the meantime. . . very inspirational transformation.

Chris, it is no big secret..... You may have tried all those diets...but you are missing one important thing. TOTAL CALS. It is the most important thing at the end of the day from a weight loss perspective.

It is very simple,....and I guarantee you this will work.

Step 1. Estimate your BMR. (or even more simply, multiply you Bodyweight time 14 as a close guess)
Step 2. Subtract 500 calories from this number.
Step 3. Construct a diet based around good whole foods with a healthy balance of fat carb and pro. In a deficit, it is a good idea to keep pro intake on the upper end so 1g/lb of body weight is a good guess.
Step 4. Track intake, weigh and measure all portions and intake. Hit your macro goals daily and calorie count (use good databases and prepare meals in favor of prepackaged less nutritious sources)
Step 5. Wait two weeks and adjust.

Using a scale, a tape around the abdominal area and even calipers and a mirror, evaluate progress. If losing more then a lb/ week, slightly bump up cals in small increments. 250 or so. If not losing a lb / week, drop 250 cals in your daily intake.

Repeat steps 4 and 5. (on a note, I sometimes wait longer then 2 weeks to make adjustments....sometimes 3 or 4 as I only like to make small changes at a time. You dont want to be chasing your maint level up and down all the time. Once you zone in on it....this is very easy.)



That is it! Very simple. And yes....if mentally you want a cookie or icecream, by all means fit a little in.....it wont kill you. If it gives you the mental strength to go on with your program then it might actually be a benefit.

MontyMagpie
01-28-2012, 10:22 AM
Yes, some of those do have more protein/minerals etc.. BUT in the grand scheme of things... It's like splitting hairs and won't make that much of an impact rather than eating the apple.
On that note GTFO!!!

Not really, you eat brocs? Those are packed with nutrients and minerals. One of the best veg. You've made that choice to eat it possibly without knowing why you did. Maybe just because everyone else does. I look at every item in my food and judge it on nutrients and minerals GI etc to make the best choices. I carefully select to maximise my nutrient intake.

induced_drag
01-28-2012, 10:23 AM
It is possible (likely) that my mistake comes from "assuming" that most folks asking about it, are interested in long-term achievement (with health in mind on some level) with the best possible results. I never considered the possibility that someone would come to a BBing forum looking for the answer on how to "just lose weight" (with no regard as to whether it was fat, or LBM). I agree, most folks "do" know how to do that (they simply lack the willingness to do it).

I guess the take away is....yes a calorie is a calorie...but...from a nutritional and overall health benefit, micro nutrients can not be overlooked in the long-term. So the diet from whole, unprocessed varied food sources will be superior in terms of general health over the long haul.

With that said...a little pizza or ice cream every once in a while will not kill you. In fact, it makes a diet sustainable mentally. Alan wrote a great article and came up with an 80/20 ratio as an example.

OutOfStep
01-28-2012, 10:27 AM
Not really, you eat brocs? Those are packed with nutrients and minerals. One of the best veg. You've made that choice to eat it possibly without knowing why you did. Maybe just because everyone else does. I look at every item in my food and judge it on nutrients and minerals GI etc to make the best choices. I carefully select to maximise my nutrient intake.

I really hope that this is the weekend you die in some type of horrific accident.

ntrllftr
01-28-2012, 10:29 AM
Not really, you eat brocs? Those are packed with nutrients and minerals. One of the best veg. You've made that choice to eat it possibly without knowing why you did. Maybe just because everyone else does. I look at every item in my food and judge it on nutrients and minerals GI etc to make the best choices. I carefully select to maximise my nutrient intake.

You do realize that those are veggies not fruits, right????

ntrllftr
01-28-2012, 10:42 AM
I really hope that this is the weekend you die in some type of horrific accident.

This is how I invision it



http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu35/Elektro-g/stickfan2.gif

MontyMagpie
01-28-2012, 10:50 AM
^^^So, is this quote above cut/pasted from a cookbook author, or is it your own? GTFO, troll.

Everyone of my words is borrowed cut and pasted from the dictionary, unless you invented your own language so are yours. Nothing new under the sun. Stop the nonsense, everyone borrows. Did you say to your Lecturers is this your own work or did you photocopy that work from someone else. You see how stupid the cut and paste argument is.

MontyMagpie
01-28-2012, 10:54 AM
You do realize that those are veggies not fruits, right????

Yes. I don't consume many fruits. I find the vegetables better for my needs. The recommended is 5 a day in the UK, I consume 10 but most days not one of those will be a fruit.

ntrllftr
01-28-2012, 11:02 AM
Yes. I don't consume many fruits. I find the vegetables better for my needs. The recommended is 5 a day in the UK, I consume 10 but most days not one of those will be a fruit.

You do realize that this thread was about an apple (a fruit) now you bring in points about vegetables.
Now do you see why we think you are a jackass?

MontyMagpie
01-28-2012, 11:10 AM
You do realize that this thread was about an apple (a fruit) now you bring in points about vegetables.
Now do you see why we think you are a jackass?

I didn't know that meant all other fruit or veg was out of bounds, there should have been a notice. I'm a random thinker not a sequential due to right brain dominance. I assume you are left because we are both at loggerheads a lot.

Look at this the lady spins clockwise for me. See how my brain functions may help you understand others better.

http://lateralaction.com/articles/left-brain-or-right/

So what I do is compare and make connections to other subjects in my mind to bring them in to the debate such as comparing other fruit with the apple or even veg.

What you may do is see the apple and not the bigger picture of fruit and the bigger picture of fruit and veg and diet as a whole. You see the parts but not the whole. I'm the other way around.

latebloomingmom
01-28-2012, 11:17 AM
I really hope that this is the weekend you die in some type of horrific accident.
by tipping over the apple cart?????:)
I kid, I kid.



hope you all realize I gotta go grocery shopping today and now I iz confused....
twizzlers and doritos or fruits and veggies....

ntrllftr
01-28-2012, 11:22 AM
I didn't know that meant all other fruit or veg was out of bounds, there should have been a notice. I'm a random thinker not a sequential due to right brain dominance. I assume you are left because we are both at loggerheads a lot.

Look at this the lady spins clockwise for me. See how my brain functions may help you understand others better.

http://lateralaction.com/articles/left-brain-or-right/

So what I do is compare and make connections to other subjects in my mind to bring them in to the debate such as comparing other fruit with the apple or even veg.

What you may do is see the apple and not the bigger picture of fruit and the bigger picture of fruit and veg and diet as a whole. You see the parts but not the whole. I'm the other way around.

Ok maybe I've been a little insensitive towards your condition which is clear now. Maybe this will help...


http://www.asktheinternettherapist.com/


Good luck!

ntrllftr
01-28-2012, 11:24 AM
by tipping over the apple cart?????:)
I kid, I kid.



hope you all realize I gotta go grocery shopping today and now I iz confused....
twizzlers and doritos or fruits and veggies....

Two apples to one twizzler.

Three cups of veggies to one single serving of Doritos.
Hope this helps.