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WhoButMe
07-11-2011, 12:14 PM
I've been doing this for 11 weeks (current cycle of 12 week program) and even though my strength has increased (going up across the board weights wise; albeit it nothing drastic) my overall size has remained the same, for the most part. I lift 4 times a week and perform cardio of about 10 minutes 3 of those times post-workout. I eat clean (every 3 hours), drink plenty of water (1-2 gallons a day) and get pretty good sleep.


I have been contemplating forgoing cardio all together and changing from a carb cycling eating regiment to a more traditional one where my high carb meals will basically be just prior and after I workout. Being stuck anywhere between 163-165 for these 11 weeks has been frustrating at times.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Bonnerjs
07-11-2011, 12:23 PM
I've been doing this for 11 weeks (current cycle of 12 week program) and even though my strength has increased (going up across the board weights wise; albeit it nothing drastic) my overall size has remained the same, for the most part. I lift 4 times a week and perform cardio of about 10 minutes 3 of those times post-workout. I eat clean (every 3 hours), drink plenty of water (1-2 gallons a day) and get pretty good sleep.


I have been contemplating forgoing cardio all together and changing from a carb cycling eating regiment to a more traditional one where my high carb meals will basically be just prior and after I workout. Being stuck anywhere between 163-165 for these 11 weeks has been frustrating at times.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

i would tend to think its not your carb cycling that is keeping you from gains but rather the number of calories... try adding in another 200 cals and see what happens...

waatsgood
07-11-2011, 12:24 PM
If you havent put on any size, it means you are not eating enough. See http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=121703981 to construct your diet.

Also, there is no advantage to eatong every 3 hours. Hitting your daily macros is far more important than timing. And one more thing about eating "clean", please see the iifym sticky

MAX.MAREK
07-11-2011, 12:25 PM
I've been doing this for 11 weeks (current cycle of 12 week program) and even though my strength has increased (going up across the board weights wise; albeit it nothing drastic) my overall size has remained the same, for the most part. I lift 4 times a week and perform cardio of about 10 minutes 3 of those times post-workout. I eat clean (every 3 hours), drink plenty of water (1-2 gallons a day) and get pretty good sleep.


I have been contemplating forgoing cardio all together and changing from a carb cycling eating regiment to a more traditional one where my high carb meals will basically be just prior and after I workout. Being stuck anywhere between 163-165 for these 11 weeks has been frustrating at times.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

whats ur daily calories amounts? how many times u do cardio, and for how long? whats ur high-carb day look like?

WhoButMe
07-11-2011, 12:29 PM
i would tend to think its not your carb cycling that is keeping you from gains but rather the number of calories... try adding in another 200 cals and see what happens...

200 extra cals per meal or extra for any given day?

Bonnerjs
07-11-2011, 12:32 PM
200 extra cals per meal or extra for any given day?

no no... not per meal... that result in a significant jump in total daily calories... 200 extra over the entire day... if still no gains, keep adding in cals until you are satisfied with the rate at which you are gaining... but be carefull not to get caught up in the scale going up... youll end up fat

WhoButMe
07-11-2011, 12:34 PM
whats ur daily calories amounts? how many times u do cardio, and for how long? whats ur high-carb day look like?

I'm not too sure on my calorie amounts; what I did was calculate what someone my height and weight should be consuming (carbs and protein) using one of those calculators here on BB.com. So right now I've been consuming 5 ounces of protein (or around 33-35 grams) on high carb days and about 100 grams of carbs (pasta, brown rice, oatmeal, grits). On low carb days I add EFA (olive oil to meals) and proteins are increased to about 7 ounces (or around 38-40 grams) and carbs are lowered to about half of a high protein day (roughly around 50 grams).

Cardio consists mostly of 10 minutes on the elliptical (nothing too strenuous such as interval training).

WhoButMe
07-11-2011, 12:35 PM
no no... not per meal... that result in a significant jump in total daily calories... 200 extra over the entire day... if still no gains, keep adding in cals until you are satisfied with the rate at which you are gaining... but be carefull not to get caught up in the scale going up... youll end up fat

Thanks for the tip; makes a lot of sense.

WonderPug
07-11-2011, 12:37 PM
I'm not too sure on my calorie amounts;

WhosButt, this is a big problem.

Try keeping it simple and focusing on what matters, which is just caloric intake and micro/macronutrient sufficiency.

For detailed instructions on how to master what matters, please see:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=121703981
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=133634471
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=123915821

Bonnerjs
07-11-2011, 12:37 PM
I'm not too sure on my calorie amounts; what I did was calculate what someone my height and weight should be consuming (carbs and protein) using one of those calculators here on BB.com. So right now I've been consuming 5 ounces of protein (or around 33-35 grams) on high protein days and about 100 grams of carbs (pasta, brown rice, oatmeal, grits). On low carb days I add EFA (olive oil to meals) and proteins are increased to about 7 ounces (or around 38-40 grams) and carbs are lowered to about half of a high protein day (roughly around 50 grams).

Cardio consists mostly of 10 minutes on the elliptical (nothing too strenuous such as interval training).

are those protein numbers per meal or per day?

WhoButMe
07-11-2011, 12:41 PM
are those protein numbers per meal or per day?

Per meal...

Bonnerjs
07-11-2011, 12:42 PM
Per meal...

ok, good deal... i was about to facepalm

MAX.MAREK
07-11-2011, 12:44 PM
I'm not too sure on my calorie amounts; what I did was calculate what someone my height and weight should be consuming (carbs and protein)

5 ounces of protein (or around 33-35 grams) on high protein days and
100 grams of carbs (pasta, brown rice, oatmeal, grits).

On low carb days
-I add EFA (olive oil to meals)
-proteins are increased to about 7 ounces (or around 38-40 grams)
-carbs are lowered to about half of a high protein day (roughly around 50 grams).


this is not a bulk. this is very little calories. 50-100g of carbs?! 5-7oz of protein? dude....u need to eat way more. triple your carbs, increase protein to 6-8oz EVERYDAY! lol keep protein the same, dont drop it. on low days, replace carbs with fats (in equivalent calories). you should be eating 3000-3500cals per day minimum. i dont see you gettin that with the info provided.

WhoButMe
07-11-2011, 12:44 PM
WhosButt, this is a big problem.

Try keeping it simple and focusing on what matters, which is just caloric intake and micro/macronutrient sufficiency.

For detailed instructions on how to master what matters, please see:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=121703981
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=133634471
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=123915821

I looked at that first link and it reads a bit intimidating; wouldn't even know where to start.

WonderPug
07-11-2011, 12:46 PM
I looked at that first link and it reads a bit intimidating; wouldn't even know where to start.

Start by focusing on the content. If you understand the content and apply that knowledge, you will succeed. If you continue doing things the way you're doing them, you will fail.

Your decision.

Bonnerjs
07-11-2011, 12:47 PM
this is not a bulk. this is very little calories. 50-100g of carbs?! 5-7oz of protein? dude....u need to eat way more. triple your carbs, increase protein to 6-8oz EVERYDAY! lol keep protein the same, dont drop it. on low days, replace carbs with fats (in equivalent calories). you should be eating 3000-3500cals per day minimum. i dont see you gettin that with the info provided.

i would just be careful when it comes to adding in calories... while you do want to be putting on weight you have to be careful that you are putting it on right... 3500 cals might be to high for you... hell, it might even be too low... you have to asses your own caloric needs through trial and error... like max said, add in carbs on high days to asses how well you do with high carbs...

WhoButMe
07-11-2011, 12:49 PM
this is not a bulk. this is very little calories. 50-100g of carbs?! 5-7oz of protein? dude....u need to eat way more. triple your carbs, increase protein to 6-8oz EVERYDAY! lol keep protein the same, dont drop it. on low days, replace carbs with fats (in equivalent calories). you should be eating 3000-3500cals per day minimum. i dont see you gettin that with the info provided.

I was starting to believe the same (it not being a bulk since I had not gained any significant weight as compared to when I started at 160lbs).

I'll try the 6-8 oz of protein which coincidentally I was actually doing before but felt I was packing on too much fat; more than likely due to my carb intake. Carbs will be a case of trial and error as far as increasing the quantity but not going overboard.

What fats specifically would you recommend to consume instead of carbs on low/no carb days?

MAX.MAREK
07-11-2011, 12:50 PM
i would just be careful when it comes to adding in calories... while you do want to be putting on weight you have to be careful that you are putting it on right... 3500 cals might be to high for you... hell, it might even be too low... you have to asses your own caloric needs through trial and error... like max said, add in carbs on high days to asses how well you do with high carbs...

ya absolutely. increase slowly. BUT from what i read, OP is eating way too little. carbs need to be way up! whats your fat intake like OP? should be around 0.5-0.75g per body lb.

Bonnerjs
07-11-2011, 12:51 PM
I was starting to believe the same (it not being a bulk since I had not gained any significant weight as compared to when I started at 160lbs).

I'll try the 6-8 oz of protein which coincidentally I was actually doing before but felt I was packing on too much fat; more than likely due to my carb intake. Carbs will be a case of trial and error as far as increasing the quantity but not going overboard.

What fats specifically would you recommend to consume instead of carbs on low/no carb days?

i take shots of EVOO to supplement cals on low carb days

MAX.MAREK
07-11-2011, 12:51 PM
What fats specifically would you recommend to consume instead of carbs on low/no carb days?

-olive oil
-avocados
-peanut butter
-almonds
-almond butter
-macadamia nut oil
-egg yokes
-steak

WhoButMe
07-11-2011, 12:57 PM
-olive oil
-avocados
-peanut butter
-almonds
-almond butter
-macadamia nut oil
-egg yokes
-steak

I'm big on natural PB and olive oil. So essentially treat low carb days just like no carb days then (zero carbs just eating veggies and protein)? All the while raising carbs gradually on high carb days and maintaining consumption of protein the same every day (6-8oz)?

MAX.MAREK
07-11-2011, 01:10 PM
I'm big on natural PB and olive oil. So essentially treat low carb days just like no carb days then (zero carbs just eating veggies and protein)? All the while raising carbs gradually on high carb days and maintaining consumption of protein the same every day (6-8oz)?

dude...have CARBS!!! your bulking. never cut carbs out.

here, ill break down what you might want to have for carbs

low day
130g (add 89g fat this day. 89g fat = 200g carbs)

mild day
230g (add 44g of fat to this day. 44g fat = 100g carbs)

high day
330g (have a regular fat intake day)

:)

Bonnerjs
07-11-2011, 01:15 PM
[QUOTE=MAX.MAREK;715833911]dude...have CARBS!!! your bulking. never cut carbs out.

here, ill break down what you might want to have for carbs

low day
130g (add 89g fat this day. 89g fat = 200g carbs)

mild day
230g (add 44g of fat to this day. 44g fat = 100g carbs)

high day
330g (have a regular fat intake day)

and if you start to notice that you are getting fat, cut back on carbs until you get to the "sweet spot" in which you gain lean mass with minimal fat gain

WhoButMe
07-11-2011, 01:17 PM
dude...have CARBS!!! your bulking. never cut carbs out.

here, ill break down what you might want to have for carbs

low day
130g (add 89g fat this day. 89g fat = 200g carbs)

mild day
230g (add 44g of fat to this day. 44g fat = 100g carbs)

high day
330g (have a regular fat intake day)

:)

I appreciated!

MAX.MAREK
07-11-2011, 01:18 PM
[QUOTE=MAX.MAREK;715833911]and if you start to notice that you are getting fat, cut back on carbs until you get to the "sweet spot" in which you gain lean mass with minimal fat gain

exactly!

find your starting "sweet spot"....then every 2-3wks, increase your cal intake :) that way, youll let your body adapt to that certain calories amount and you will minimize your chances of putting on alot of fat.

WhoButMe
07-11-2011, 01:18 PM
[QUOTE=MAX.MAREK;715833911]dude...have CARBS!!! your bulking. never cut carbs out.

here, ill break down what you might want to have for carbs

low day
130g (add 89g fat this day. 89g fat = 200g carbs)

mild day
230g (add 44g of fat to this day. 44g fat = 100g carbs)

high day
330g (have a regular fat intake day)

and if you start to notice that you are getting fat, cut back on carbs until you get to the "sweet spot" in which you gain lean mass with minimal fat gain

How did you come up with these numbers by the way? Thanks again...

MAX.MAREK
07-11-2011, 01:20 PM
I appreciated!

no prob man. ppl think carb cycling is hard to break down. but it aint. keep proteins the same for the most part, but just play around with the carb and fat intakes. the carbs you take away, replace with fats.

protein g = 4 calories
carb g = 4 calories
fat g = 9 calories

keep your HIGH days for big muscle groups...such as LEGS, and BACK. that way you can utilized those carbs to their advantage. i keep low days to OFF days, and MID days to all other body parts.

MAX.MAREK
07-11-2011, 01:22 PM
[QUOTE=Bonnerjs;715836501]

How did you come up with these numbers by the way? Thanks again...

330g = 2g per body lb. roughly for your weight. thats a good starting point for mass gaining.

then i just kept it simple (which it should be), but removing 100g per each day.

BUT play around with it as stated by a few of us. find your sweet spot. your sweet spot can be more or less then these amounts.

WhoButMe
07-11-2011, 01:24 PM
Guys,

thanks again for your invaluable information. Sometimes searching on here (BB.com), within articles, you get conflicting info but knowing that you guys have used what you've have shared today makes me a more confident from here on out with my food regiment. Thanks!

Bonnerjs
07-11-2011, 01:28 PM
Guys,

thanks again for your invaluable information. Sometimes searching on here (BB.com), within articles, you get conflicting info but knowing that you guys have used what you've have shared today makes me a more confident from here on out with my food regiment. Thanks!

no problem... it took me a while to get in in my head that there is no set of numbers that works well for everyone... i went for years eating lots of carbs because "thats what the pros did" only to put on weight half of which was fat... i now realize that for me, 160 carbs on a high day is optimal for me to gain weight at the ratio at which i prefer... i go down to 60 on low carb days... its all trial and error, as im sure max has gone through the same trials of testing to see where hes comfortable... good luck

WhoButMe
07-11-2011, 01:39 PM
[QUOTE=WhoButMe;715838711]

330g = 2g per body lb. roughly for your weight. thats a good starting point for mass gaining.

then i just kept it simple (which it should be), but removing 100g per each day.

BUT play around with it as stated by a few of us. find your sweet spot. your sweet spot can be more or less then these amounts.

Is that 330g per meal or through out the course of day on a "high carb day"? Because once I divided that into 6 meals that's roughly on 55g in one sitting which is what I have now on a low carb day. Can you please specify...

Bonnerjs
07-11-2011, 01:41 PM
[QUOTE=MAX.MAREK;715840911]

Is that 330g per meal or through out the course of day on a "high carb day"? Because once I divided that into 6 meals that's roughly on 55g in one sitting which is what I have now on a low carb day. Can you please specify...

it seems as if there has been some confusion... i think max and i both were under the assumption you were listing daily macros rather than what you eat per meal... list your current daily macros for me... not per meal but over the course of the day...

MAX.MAREK
07-11-2011, 01:43 PM
no problem... it took me a while to get in in my head that there is no set of numbers that works well for everyone... i went for years eating lots of carbs because "thats what the pros did" only to put on weight half of which was fat... i now realize that for me, 160 carbs on a high day is optimal for me to gain weight at the ratio at which i prefer... i go down to 60 on low carb days... its all trial and error, as im sure max has gone through the same trials of testing to see where hes comfortable... good luck

SAME! HAHAHAHA

when i started to bulk, i jumped my carbs to 400g off the bat. and what happened? PUT ON FAAAATTTTTTTT! lol i did that for 4-5months. then i restarted my bulk in january of this year. cut down for 1-1.5months (so i can get a good starting point again), then slowly increased my amounts. my low day is now 200g (started at 60g), mild day is 300g (started at 100g), and my high day is 430g (started at 150g).

so as long as you give yourself time to adjust, the amounts will rise. ive kept good condition in my offseason due to this strategy. will make dieting down next year for some shows alot easier. i am still gaining weight as a good rate with this...and not 'softening up' or 'puffing' up. NO BLOAT either. the only thing i have is feeling FULL on my high days....5700cals can do that HAHAHA

but ya, like Bonnerjs said, there is NO SET AMOUNT for anyone. each person reacts differently.

WhoButMe
07-11-2011, 01:44 PM
[QUOTE=WhoButMe;715851941]

it seems as if there has been some confusion... i think max and i both were under the assumption you were listing daily macros rather than what you eat per meal... list your current daily macros for me... not per meal but over the course of the day...

I have no idea what my daily macros are. Fats I only consume on low/no carb days (which I won't have anymore no carb days after this convo with you guys) Again, I was using a carb cycling calculator on here and obviously I must have been off on my calculations since I have not gained too much size in the past 11 weeks.

So would your recent recommendation not apply then?

MAX.MAREK
07-11-2011, 01:45 PM
[QUOTE=WhoButMe;715851941]

it seems as if there has been some confusion... i think max and i both were under the assumption you were listing daily macros rather than what you eat per meal... list your current daily macros for me... not per meal but over the course of the day...

ya. the way OP stated it was...total daily amount. so OP, lets ask again....what is your TOTAL DAILY #'s......

Bonnerjs
07-11-2011, 01:46 PM
[QUOTE=Bonnerjs;715853061]

I have no idea what my daily macros are. Again, I was using a carb cycling calculator on here and obviously I must have been off on my calculations since I have not gained too much size in the past 11 weeks.

So would your recent recommendation not apply then?

you should know how many grams of protein, fat and carbs you take in each day... if you dont, you need to figure it out so that you can accurately asses your situation

MAX.MAREK
07-11-2011, 01:46 PM
[QUOTE=Bonnerjs;715853061]

I have no idea what my daily macros are. Again, I was using a carb cycling calculator on here and obviously I must have been off on my calculations since I have not gained too much size in the past 11 weeks.

So would your recent recommendation not apply then?

add more to it then. simple as that. add 15-30g to each serving then. go from there. simple as this..if you aint gaining, your body adjusted, so it plateaued. time to increase cals, so you start gaining again.

WhoButMe
07-11-2011, 01:49 PM
On high carb days I'd say im around 600g (for the day), low carb days im around 300g. Using fats on low/no carb days....

So was that low, moderate and high breakdown that was provided earlier not for me then based on current weight? Was the 330g on a high carb day per meal?

Bonnerjs
07-11-2011, 01:51 PM
On high carb days I'd say im around 600g, low carb days im around 300g. Using fats on low/no carb days....

damn dude... and still not gaining?... thats some awesome insulin sensitivity right there.... if those numbers are accurate, id say youre ripe for some serious gains if you get your cals right

WhoButMe
07-11-2011, 01:56 PM
damn dude... and still not gaining?... thats some awesome insulin sensitivity right there.... if those numbers are accurate, id say youre ripe for some serious gains if you get your cals right

the around 600g of carbs on a high carb day is spread out through out 6 meals (100g per sitting).

Bonnerjs
07-11-2011, 01:58 PM
the around 600g of carbs on a high carb day is spread out through out 6 meals (100g per sitting).

yeah, thats still pretty amazing to me

*jealous

WhoButMe
07-11-2011, 02:01 PM
yeah, thats still pretty amazing to me

*jealous

After everything you guys have just said I think I am off in Fats; I have never measure fats but will use the formula provided here as a starting point.

So I've essentially been consuming double the carbs that i should be consuming for the day? Yeah, it has to be my fats need to be increased....

vitornoob
07-11-2011, 02:24 PM
Do u know that u do not eat to eat 6 times, yeah? Just for you preference, no?

Bonnerjs
07-11-2011, 02:27 PM
Do u know that u do not eat to eat 6 times, yeah? Just for you preference, no?

in order to eat the amounts of carbs, protein, and fat, its easier to spread them out rather than fit them into 2 or 3 larger meals... OP never mentioned a physiological need to do it, but rather its just the easiest and most common way to eat for someone with muscle gain in mind having to eat large quantities

MAX.MAREK
07-11-2011, 02:48 PM
in order to eat the amounts of carbs, protein, and fat, its easier to spread them out rather than fit them into 2 or 3 larger meals... OP never mentioned a physiological need to do it, but rather its just the easiest and most common way to eat for someone with muscle gain in mind having to eat large quantities

exactly. i eat 7-9 meals. 4600-5700cals need to be spread out :) no bloat. no loss in energy. and completely satisfied. my biggest meal is meal 1. thats around 1100-1300cals.

swole-striation
07-11-2011, 02:54 PM
Hello OP

Might i just add, measure your waist every week or so to track how the bulk is going. Seen too many people not realise they are putting on fat and not enough muscle.

MAX.MAREK
07-11-2011, 03:08 PM
Hello OP

Might i just add, measure your waist every week or so to track how the bulk is going. Seen too many people not realise they are putting on fat and not enough muscle.

the mirror should tell the story....not the measuring tape.

WhoButMe
07-11-2011, 08:48 PM
[QUOTE=WhoButMe;715855251]

add more to it then. simple as that. add 15-30g to each serving then. go from there. simple as this..if you aint gaining, your body adjusted, so it plateaued. time to increase cals, so you start gaining again.

I'm currently consuming approximately 50 grams of carbs on a low carb day and 100 grams of carbs during a high carb day per meal.

So in summary, since I eat about 6 times a day, on a high carb day I'd now consume roughly around 55 grams per meal correct? Keeping a close eye on fats on mid and low carb days of course which I have been consuming but not measuring.

swole-striation
07-12-2011, 04:28 AM
the mirror should tell the story....not the measuring tape.

until you notice the mirror, it is often too late in cutting your cals down. You stop fitting into your pants.

Lvisaa2
07-12-2011, 04:43 AM
until you notice the mirror, it is often too late in cutting your cals down. You stop fitting into your pants.

Apparently, you don't look in the mirror much.

jerryinreallife
05-16-2014, 02:28 PM
no problem... it took me a while to get in in my head that there is no set of numbers that works well for everyone... i went for years eating lots of carbs because "thats what the pros did" only to put on weight half of which was fat... i now realize that for me, 160 carbs on a high day is optimal for me to gain weight at the ratio at which i prefer... i go down to 60 on low carb days... its all trial and error, as im sure max has gone through the same trials of testing to see where hes comfortable... good luck

I, too, have considered carb cycling on a bulk. So from what I've read here, low carb days should be supplemented with increased fats...so that each and every day (even low carb days) is a surplus? This is a question that I am still not clear on...are you in a surplus or in a deficit on low carb days? Protein staying the same each day, that would be ALOT of fat, wouldnt it?

dbman4
05-16-2014, 02:42 PM
I looked at that first link and it reads a bit intimidating; wouldn't even know where to start.

If the BMR method is too intimidating. then you can try and estimations via multiplying your bodyweight by the numbers shown below. Also iifym.com has a calorie calculator that is fairly specific. http://iifym.com/iifym-calculator/