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DOC_M
07-09-2011, 02:23 PM
I have read, been told and even seen ppl who don't believe in post workout carbs.

I live and die by the post workout protien,carbs and creatine shake. and water

my logic is simple:
protien-because we all know we need protien to rebuild muscle

carbs- to restore glycogen levels as soon as possible. I cant afford to have my body work harder looking for glucose anywhere else when its focus should be to begin the recovery after the workout.

creatine- to help rehydrated the cells in the muscle and shuttle nutrients in as fast as possible.

water- to rehydrate the body as a whole.

now i do know someone who doesnt have carbs post workout and still gained 10lbs in 1yrm so clearly it works for him.

i would like to hear both sides of the story and have a friendly discussion.(maybe you could convince me to stop my post workout carbs)

WonderPug
07-09-2011, 02:24 PM
It's simply that the timing is not critical as it's daily intake totals that matter.

And using the glycogen replenishment argument is sort of like arguing that one should charge his mobile phone after each call. Doing so has no advantage over charging your phone once each evening, assuming your total use per day is below the total energy stored in your phone's battery.

Jamie94
07-09-2011, 02:24 PM
It isn't going to have any negative effects so if you find it works for you, then enjoy your PWO carbs - everyones different, and judging by your avi what your doing is working for you so just keep it up :P

Joseph1990
07-09-2011, 02:30 PM
No need for PWO anything. Also you are nowhere near depletion after lifting weights.

Mr.Cooper69
07-09-2011, 02:30 PM
You obviously have no clue how creatine works.

PhiSig2298
07-09-2011, 02:31 PM
No need for PWO anything. Also you are nowhere near depletion after lifting weights.


Your new avi frightens me! I like it!

Cumulonimbus
07-09-2011, 02:32 PM
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/ProteinSynthesis1.jpg

WonderPug
07-09-2011, 02:34 PM
Your new avi frightens me! I like it!

Can you imagine what would happen if Synthetic tried that?

braggable
07-09-2011, 02:34 PM
creatine- to help rehydrated the cells in the muscle and shuttle nutrients in as fast as possible.

water- to rehydrate the body as a whole.


So creatine to rehydrate the cells, and water to rehydrate the REST of the body as a whole.

Got it!

Thanks OP, ive been doin it wrong for YEARS!!! :D

Joseph1990
07-09-2011, 02:36 PM
Can you imagine what would happen if Synthetic tried that?

lol!

Here OP.

9mjMonDmbFo

DOC_M
07-09-2011, 02:42 PM
lol **** i'm confused lol.

so i dont know how creatine works.( ok then teach me)

i dont think its fair to compare the human body to a cell phone.

and i suck at looking at diagrams (eventhough i think i understand it.


no disrespect but i refuse to believe that we dont need anything after a hard workout. thats crazy to me. but here's why. i'll use sweat as an example, fluid loss in the body has to be replaced ounce per ounce. so if i lose 500ml of fluid during a sport, i should replace it as soon as possible, i wouldnt wait untill the end of the day to drink water. so how could you advice not need anything after a workout.

Mr.Cooper69
07-09-2011, 02:43 PM
lol **** i'm confused lol.

so i dont know how creatine works.( ok then teach me)

i dont think its fair to compare the human body to a cell phone.

and i suck at looking at diagrams (eventhough i think i understand it.


no disrespect but i refuse to believe that we dont need anything after a hard workout. thats crazy to me. but here's why. i'll use sweat as an example, fluid loss in the body has to be replaced ounce per ounce. so if i lose 500ml of fluid during a sport, i should replace it as soon as possible, i wouldnt wait untill the end of the day to drink water. so how could you advice not need anything after a workout.

Because you don't go catabolic in a few hours. You can, however, suffer from dehydration.

Joseph1990
07-09-2011, 02:45 PM
I trained for 3 hours yesterday 26 hours fasted and did not eat anything for a few hours later. During that workout I smashed a PR. 2 reps of weighted dips with 5 plates (225lbs) added.

Mr.Cooper69
07-09-2011, 02:47 PM
I trained for 3 hours yesterday 26 hours fasted and did not eat anything for a few hours later. During that workout I smashed a PR. 2 reps of weighted dips with 5 plates (225lbs) added.

reppin on rc for being a beast

AdamWW
07-09-2011, 02:49 PM
I have read, been told and even seen ppl who don't believe in post workout carbs.

I live and die by the post workout protien,carbs and creatine shake. and water

my logic is simple:
protien-because we all know we need protien to rebuild muscle

carbs- to restore glycogen levels as soon as possible. I cant afford to have my body work harder looking for glucose anywhere else when its focus should be to begin the recovery after the workout.

creatine- to help rehydrated the cells in the muscle and shuttle nutrients in as fast as possible.
water- to rehydrate the body as a whole.

now i do know someone who doesnt have carbs post workout and still gained 10lbs in 1yrm so clearly it works for him.

i would like to hear both sides of the story and have a friendly discussion.(maybe you could convince me to stop my post workout carbs)

uhh.. not so sure about this.

AdamWW
07-09-2011, 02:53 PM
I trained for 3 hours yesterday 26 hours fasted and did not eat anything for a few hours later. During that workout I smashed a PR. 2 reps of weighted dips with 5 plates (225lbs) added.

Dude, how did you squat on a ball without popping it.

DOC_M
07-09-2011, 02:53 PM
lol!

Here OP.

9mjMonDmbFo

i'm learning alot, so i assume you agree with everything he is saying. he sounds smart but i dont really like his tone. and no offense but i'm bigger than him! i wouldnt listen to a guy smaller than me unless i know he has a degree or has trained someone with success before.

Mr.Cooper69
07-09-2011, 02:55 PM
i'm learning alot, so i assume you agree with everything he is saying. he sounds smart but i dont really like his tone. and no offense but i'm bigger than him! i wouldnt listen to a guy smaller than me unless i know he has a degree or has trained someone with success before.

Alright then go back to thinking that you know what you're doing. Better yet, go back to thinking that there is a correlation between body mass and intelligence/knowledge.

Joseph1990
07-09-2011, 02:58 PM
i'm learning alot, so i assume you agree with everything he is saying. he sounds smart but i dont really like his tone. and no offense but i'm bigger than him! i wouldnt listen to a guy smaller than me unless i know he has a degree or has trained someone with success before.

http://mob579.photobucket.com/albums/ss240/mrmusclesusa/bro-science.jpg?t=1273523671


Dude, how did you squat on a ball without popping it.

I'm a wizard.

DOC_M
07-09-2011, 02:58 PM
I trained for 3 hours yesterday 26 hours fasted and did not eat anything for a few hours later. During that workout I smashed a PR. 2 reps of weighted dips with 5 plates (225lbs) added.

if this is true i'm not going to lie i'm pretty impressed.
but in your own words why dont you eat after a workout. you are deff leaner and stronger than me so i'll gladly take advice from you.

WonderPug
07-09-2011, 03:01 PM
you are deff leaner and stronger than me so i'll gladly take advice from you.
Are you really this childish?

DOC_M
07-09-2011, 03:02 PM
Alright then go back to thinking that you know what you're doing. Better yet, go back to thinking that there is a correlation between body mass and intelligence/knowledge.

no need to get upset and be a smartass about it. i dont know the guy in that video so i have to go with what see. i dont see any degrees and i dont see any muscles. so what do you want me to do. just take advice because it sounds nice!

however the guy that posted the video looks like he knows what he's talking about. so i'd rather listen to him.

Joseph1990
07-09-2011, 03:02 PM
if this is true i'm not going to lie i'm pretty impressed.
but in your own words why dont you eat after a workout. you are deff leaner and stronger than me so i'll gladly take advice from you.

I follow an IF protocol. My goals involve me being very lean meaning low calories. IF helps suppress my hunger. (Main reason)

A few other reasons:

Convenience.

I prefer fewer larger meals rather then frequent smaller meals.

DOC_M
07-09-2011, 03:03 PM
Are you really this childish?

childish? i was being serious. look at the dudes pictures he's leaner and stronger, than me

WonderPug
07-09-2011, 03:04 PM
childish? i was being serious. look at the dudes pictures he's leaner and stronger, than me

You have so much to learn...

DOC_M
07-09-2011, 03:06 PM
I follow an IF protocol. My goals involve me being very lean meaning low calories. IF helps suppress my hunger. (Main reason)

A few other reasons:

Convenience.

I prefer fewer larger meals rather then frequent smaller meals.

i see, so you eat large meals spaced apart.
do you still try to hit the 1lb-1g protien ?
and what is the IF protocol, its the frist time i here this.

thanks for the advice this is what i wanted

Joseph1990
07-09-2011, 03:07 PM
You have so much to learn...

Lucky for him he came to the right section.


i see, so you eat large meals spaced apart.
do you still try to hit the 1lb-1g protien ?


Protein: 1-1.5g per lb of LBM


and what is the IF protocol, its the frist time i here this.

thanks for the advice this is what i wanted

Basically 16hours of fasting followed by an 8 hour feeding window. I prefer to fast longer with a smaller feeding window.

http://www.leangains.com/2011/03/intermittent-fasting-for-weight-loss.html

WonderPug
07-09-2011, 03:08 PM
Lucky for him he came to the right section.

I fear he the lacks the cognitive endowment necessary to progress very far...

DOC_M
07-09-2011, 03:09 PM
You have so much to learn...

i couldnt agree with you anymore. i am all ears.
i would also take advice from you based on what i see in your pic. actually i have, you've posted on some of my other posts.

WonderPug
07-09-2011, 03:10 PM
i would also take advice from you based on what i see in your pic. actually i have, you've posted on some of my other posts.

An individual's physical condition is not an indication of their knowledge of nutrition. To believe that it is would be, at best, misguided.

Joseph1990
07-09-2011, 03:10 PM
I fear he the lacks the cognitive endowment necessary to progress very far...

Perhaps you don't rember yours truly?

WonderPug
07-09-2011, 03:12 PM
Perhaps you don't rember yours truly?

I do :)

But you, my friend, have an impressive cognitive endowment.

DOC_M
07-09-2011, 03:13 PM
I fear he the lacks the cognitive endowment necessary to progress very far...

no man, no need to insult me. lol help me out.

he's the deal. i want to lean out and the easiest thing for me to cut out is my carbs, however, i dont want to hamper my recovery process after my workouts. it sound like i dont need them but why? thats my question. no one has gotten on here to argue that we due need carbs after a workout so you guys must be right. why?

bbavender
07-09-2011, 03:14 PM
Brb only listening to people who I think have good physiques. Sounds like broscience to me!

TBEagl
07-09-2011, 03:15 PM
childish? i was being serious. look at the dudes pictures he's leaner and stronger, than me

That's the problem right there, you're a fool if you judge a book by it's cover and if you do you're being very childish, does this look like it's fuking kindergarten to you. How about you grow up and become a real man and listen to what people have to say, regardless of their physic

PhiSig2298
07-09-2011, 03:15 PM
no man, no need to insult me. lol help me out.

he's the deal. i want to lean out and the easiest thing for me to cut out is my carbs, however, i dont want to hamper my recovery process after my workouts. it sound like i dont need them but why? thats my question. no one has gotten on here to argue that we due need carbs after a workout so you guys must be right. why?

No one NEEDS carbs...


You need protein & fat.. That's it.

WonderPug
07-09-2011, 03:15 PM
help me out.

I'm sorry. My muscles aren't big enough so I can't answer your question about nutrition.

Good luck.

PhiSig2298
07-09-2011, 03:16 PM
That's the problem right there, you're a fool if you judge a book by it's cover and if you do you're being very childish, does this look like it's fuking kindergarten to you. How about you grow up and become a real man and listen to what people have to say, regardless of their physic


Says a half duck/ half man..



A "muck" if you will

DOC_M
07-09-2011, 03:18 PM
Lucky for him he came to the right section.




Protein: 1-1.5g per lb of LBM



Basically 16hours of fasting followed by an 8 hour feeding window. I prefer to fast longer with a smaller feeding window.

http://www.leangains.com/2011/03/intermittent-fasting-for-weight-loss.html

thanks for the link man. deff gonna look at it and see if its for me. if it'll get me lean i hope i can stick to it

hulk4
07-09-2011, 03:20 PM
no man, no need to insult me. lol help me out.

he's the deal. i want to lean out and the easiest thing for me to cut out is my carbs, however, i dont want to hamper my recovery process after my workouts. it sound like i dont need them but why? thats my question. no one has gotten on here to argue that we due need carbs after a workout so you guys must be right. why?

Because protein alone can elevate insulin level and thus inhibits protein breakdown and stimulates protein synthesis.

Also, after a weight training you're not glycogen depleted so there is no need in replenishing glycogen stores.

And remember hitting your macronutrient target by the end of the day is way more important than focusing on food timing.

Cumulonimbus
07-09-2011, 03:20 PM
i'm learning alot, so i assume you agree with everything he is saying. he sounds smart but i dont really like his tone. and no offense but i'm bigger than him! i wouldnt listen to a guy smaller than me unless i know he has a degree or has trained someone with success before.

Alright there, go back to your broscience then bud. Using anecdote is crap. So you're going to dismiss all of Lyle's info because he isn't a bodybuilder?



I'm sorry. My muscles aren't big enough so I can't answer your question about nutrition.

Good luck.

This loooool

DOC_M
07-09-2011, 03:21 PM
I'm sorry. My muscles aren't big enough so I can't answer your question about nutrition.

Good luck.

5'10 210lbs, you are big enough and you look lean enough but if you dont want to help me thats cool too.

thanks for the good luck

Joseph1990
07-09-2011, 03:22 PM
no man, no need to insult me. lol help me out.

he's the deal. i want to lean out and the easiest thing for me to cut out is my carbs, however, i dont want to hamper my recovery process after my workouts. it sound like i dont need them but why? thats my question. no one has gotten on here to argue that we due need carbs after a workout so you guys must be right. why?


You claimed that you need post workout carbs the burden of proof is on you.


I'm sorry. My muscles aren't big enough so I can't answer your question about nutrition.

Good luck.

lol my abs are splitting apart.

DOC_M
07-09-2011, 03:27 PM
Alright there, go back to your broscience then bud. Using anecdote is crap. So you're going to dismiss all of Lyle's info because he isn't a bodybuilder?




This loooool

not because he's not a bodybuilder but because i dont know who he is. if he is soemsort of expert let me know and i'll gladly shut the ****. untill then i cant take advice form strangers unless i know they know what they are talking about or i can see they know.

Cumulonimbus
07-09-2011, 03:31 PM
not because he's not a bodybuilder but because i dont know who he is. if he is soemsort of expert let me know and i'll gladly shut the ****. untill then i cant take advice form strangers unless i know they know what they are talking about or i can see they know.

Your first step in learning is to stop using anecdote as a form of evidence. Stop judging someones knowledge by their physical appearance/muscular physique.

Joseph1990
07-09-2011, 03:35 PM
Your first step in learning is to stop using anecdote as a form of evidence. Stop judging someones knowledge by their physical appearance/muscular physique.

Strong ^this.

DOC_M
07-09-2011, 03:37 PM
Your first step in learning is to stop using anecdote as a form of evidence. Stop judging someones knowledge by their physical appearance/muscular physique.

bro, trust me i know what you are saying. but i dont know who that guy is. apparently he must know what he's talkign about snice you guys are defending him so much. see i dont know who you are either, all i know is what i see, and i can see you have a good body, so if YOU gave me advice i'll be more likely to believe it.

on that note, do you eat carbs after a workout?

alan aragon
07-09-2011, 03:38 PM
Real life, this thread is??

jon1995
07-09-2011, 03:39 PM
confused as to why you made fun of wonder pug when hes only 1 inch taller 25 pounds heavier and leaner?

DOC_M
07-09-2011, 03:39 PM
Strong ^this.

omg now i regret saying anything about this guy lmao

but srs who is he, he is somesort of guru, if he is i'm willing to listen to his videos.

Cumulonimbus
07-09-2011, 03:40 PM
bro, trust me i know what you are saying. but i dont know who that guy is. apparently he must know what he's talkign about snice you guys are defending him so much. see i dont know who you are either, all i know is what i see, and i can see you have a good body, so if YOU gave me advice i'll be more likely to believe it.

on that note, do you eat carbs after a workout?

I prefer crabs after my workout.

Alaskan pollock imitation crab to be exact, it has both carbs and protein in the form of crabs.

DOC_M
07-09-2011, 03:40 PM
confused as to why you made fun of wonder pug when hes only 1 inch taller 25 pounds heavier and leaner?

when did i make fun of wonder bug?

do you eat carbs afterworkout?

jon1995
07-09-2011, 03:41 PM
when did i make fun of wonder bug?

do you eat carbs afterworkout?

i eat carbs all day i eat carbs pwo cus im hungry

alan aragon
07-09-2011, 03:41 PM
ROFL, crabs, wonder bugs, this thread has it all.

Joseph1990
07-09-2011, 03:41 PM
omg now i regret saying anything about this guy lmao

but srs who is he, he is somesort of guru, if he is i'm willing to listen to his videos.

I urge you to stick around here (the nutrition subform) as you will learn a lot. Also practice using proper spelling and punctuation.

DOC_M
07-09-2011, 03:42 PM
Strong ^this.

he man i just repped you for actually trying to help me out and giving me that link.

now who the **** is that kid on the youtube video?

Cumulonimbus
07-09-2011, 03:43 PM
he man i just repped you for actually trying to help me out and giving me that link.

now who the **** is that kid on the youtube video?

He is a wizard. Now listen to his advice.

Joseph1990
07-09-2011, 03:45 PM
he man i just repped you for actually trying to help me out and giving me that link.

now who the **** is that kid on the youtube video?

A wizard who I have obtained much useful knowledge in regards to nutrition and training from.

bigpapamomma
07-09-2011, 03:47 PM
You have so much to learn...

haters gonna hate

DOC_M
07-09-2011, 03:47 PM
He is a wizard. Now listen to his advice.

come on man, all i really want is to get lean, and to know if i need carbs after a workout. just let me knwo what you do

Cumulonimbus
07-09-2011, 03:51 PM
come on man, all i really want is to get lean, and to know if i need carbs after a workout. just let me knwo what you do

You're acting like a child now.

I urge you to read the stickies, search around and do some research yourself.

At the age of 26 and being in the military, you should know better.

jon1995
07-09-2011, 03:51 PM
come on man, all i really want is to get lean, and to know if i need carbs after a workout. just let me knwo what you do

dude im pretty sure you've been told 100 times you dont read the sticky that says pre,during and post workout nutrition maybe you can find your answer there

TBEagl
07-09-2011, 03:55 PM
Says a half duck/ half man..



A "muck" if you will

Lol you should hear all the hate pms I get, like
"get out of my lake, Swans only!"
and
"You'll never be as beautiful as a swan"

moneyrich
07-09-2011, 03:58 PM
and no offense but i'm bigger than him! i wouldnt listen to a guy smaller than me unless i know he has a degree or has trained someone with success before.

so i should take advice from the bros at my gym and eat 6 meals a day of chicken and brown rice and drink a post workout shake with dextrose to spike mah insulin for teh gainz?

chickeneater
07-09-2011, 03:58 PM
no man, no need to insult me. lol help me out.


OP, there is a weird phenomenon in this section. Many here are very helpful, but many seem to be hoping for a fight all the time. Just be aware, and tread around it to get your answers. -Cheers.

DOC_M
07-09-2011, 04:03 PM
You're acting like a child now.

I urge you to read the stickies, search around and do some research yourself.

At the age of 26 and being in the military, you should know better.

i have done research, the problem is many things are contradicting. i would really appreciate it if you stopped talking about my military service. it has nothing do you with you, and unless you have served yourself. thank you.

but you are right. i should know better so i dont need you to post anything else thanks.

hulk4
07-09-2011, 04:04 PM
Maybe you missed my answer in the previous page, so i'll quote myself loll


Because protein alone can elevate insulin level and thus inhibits protein breakdown and stimulates protein synthesis.

Also, after a weight training you're not glycogen depleted so there is no need in replenishing glycogen stores.

And remember hitting your macronutrient target by the end of the day is way more important than focusing on food timing.

DOC_M
07-09-2011, 04:06 PM
OP, there is a weird phenomenon in this section. Many here are very helpful, but many seem to be hoping for a fight all the time. Just be aware, and tread around it to get your answers. -Cheers.

yea man, i see that, most are just trying to help but get frustrated which i can understand but i guess i got most of what i need. time to go now.

DOC_M
07-09-2011, 04:07 PM
Maybe you missed my answer in the previous page, so i'll quote myself loll

thank man, deff repped for giving advice

Joseph1990
07-09-2011, 04:08 PM
yea man, i see that, most are just trying to help but get frustrated which i can understand but i guess i got most of what i need. time to go now.

There is a lot of misinformation out there. Stay skeptical and look for empirical evidence.

2canman
07-09-2011, 04:11 PM
OP, there is a weird phenomenon in this section. Many here are very helpful, but many seem to be hoping for a fight all the time. Just be aware, and tread around it to get your answers. -Cheers.
This. OP- sit back and lurk through the threads in the nutrition forum. After a good month or two, you'll find out about the humour,lingo, motivation, and tough love that is thrown around here. Additionally, great knowledge will come with that stuff. THEN you can start posting since you'll know how things work in the nutrition forums. It's a scary place bro, but i believe in you (yes homo) (not srs) (maybe srs).

chickeneater
07-09-2011, 04:12 PM
yea man, i see that, most are just trying to help but get frustrated which i can understand but i guess i got most of what i need. time to go now.

Not that I want it to change, I like the phenomenon because I'm addicted to the drama of it (theres members here who are logged in all day, it's great stuff, lurk awhile you'll learn a lot) lol, but I felt you came in here politely and did'nt deserve it.

elperfecto
07-09-2011, 04:30 PM
It's simply that the timing is not critical as it's daily intake totals that matter.

And using the glycogen replenishment argument is sort of like arguing that one should charge his mobile phone after each call. Doing so has no advantage over charging your phone once each evening, assuming your total use per day is below the total energy stored in your phone's battery.

I don't see how you can compare the human body to your phone bill.

WonderPug
07-09-2011, 04:31 PM
I don't see how you can compare the human body to your phone bill.
Incredible lack of reading comprehension.

Joseph1990
07-09-2011, 04:33 PM
Incredible lack of reading comprehension.

Was just about to say...

rich503
07-09-2011, 04:33 PM
i have done research, the problem is many things are contradicting. i would really appreciate it if you stopped talking about my military service. it has nothing do you with you, and unless you have served yourself. thank you.

but you are right. i should know better so i dont need you to post anything else thanks.

Not your fault man. Lots of info out there and much of it is rather misleading. It is unreasonable to expect every new member to see things in parallel with the frequent posters on this site. Read through some threads on here each day and you will understand the perspective of the veteran members here. Their perspective is based more on actual scientific data and less on anecdotal evidence, though there are some discrepencies.

As far as your service is concerned...NO ONE should bring that up. You have certainly accomplished things that guys sitting behind keyboards will never have the balls to attempt.

rich503
07-09-2011, 04:37 PM
I urge you to stick around here (the nutrition subform) as you will learn alot. Also practice using proper spelling and punctuation.

http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/alot.html

WonderPug
07-09-2011, 04:38 PM
^ He hasn't allotted sufficient time to his studies, which you see a lot these days...*







------------
* Couldn't resist. It's approaching 3am where I am and I'm bored.

Joseph1990
07-09-2011, 04:41 PM
http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/alot.html

=).

Old Bob
07-10-2011, 12:26 AM
Would you rather listen to this guy?

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh238/LDHunter1/Bodybuilding/internet_trainer_380.jpg

Or this guy?
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh238/LDHunter1/utf-8BSGVyZSBJIEFtIEFmdGVyIE15IExhc.jpg

Or this guy?
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh238/LDHunter1/Bodybuilding/VinDieselShirtless.jpg

Or maybe this guy?
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh238/LDHunter1/Bodybuilding/Arnold_Schwarzenegger_Mr__Olympia_B.jpg

Or would you rather listen to EVERYBODY and take your time separating the wheat from the chaff and experiment until you figure out what works for best you as you build the best body you can achieve with what you have to work with?

At the not so tender age of 60 I've found countless workout programs and volumes of nutritional advise that work great for me and a huge amount of pure crap, but in the end I found that eating 4-5 well balanced meals with an emphasis on quality protein and avoiding empty calories or excessive carbohydrates and nearly all forms of processed food worked best for me.

I finally gave up supplements except for a bit of whey now and then, because all the benefits I could ever see from them was weight gain and it usually it was water weight or fat.

Oh yeah... Make sure your hormones are in balance as directed by a physician that specializes in hormone replacement therapy and commonly works with athletes.

YMMV and I don't pretend to know squat about nutrition and no, I'm not a huge muscle monster but there you have it.... ;)

NSO Bob.... One day at a time....

elperfecto
07-10-2011, 08:38 AM
Maybe you missed my answer in the previous page, so i'll quote myself loll
"...remember hitting your macronutrient target by the end of the day is way more important than focusing on food timing."

"MORE" is the key word there. Even this guy admits that there's some importance to timing your food intake.

Mr.Cooper69
07-10-2011, 08:40 AM
Some people grow old but they never grow up.

juliacheh
07-10-2011, 09:03 AM
Some people grow old but they never grow up.

Golden.

elperfecto
07-10-2011, 09:08 AM
Some people grow old but they never grow up.

Some peoples' head's grow, but not their body so much.

Mr.Cooper69
07-10-2011, 09:12 AM
Some peoples' head's grow, but not their body so much.

Perfect. Last time I checked, the brain and not the body dictates knowledge/intelligence level and scientific comprehension.

juliacheh
07-10-2011, 09:13 AM
Some peoples' head's grow, but not their body so much.

You are really something...

elperfecto
07-10-2011, 09:17 AM
You are really something...

What do you call a female white knight?

elperfecto
07-10-2011, 09:19 AM
Perfect. Last time I checked, the brain and not the body dictates knowledge/intelligence level and scientific comprehension.

Why can't you apply your "intelligence" to your own self? How long have you been working out?

Mr.Cooper69
07-10-2011, 09:22 AM
Why can't you apply your "intelligence" to your own self? How long have you been working out?

http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/3615/lunapic1310314781907823.png

DOC_M
07-10-2011, 09:24 AM
woke up this morning and saw that ppl are still posting on this thread. just wanted to say thank you to all that have given an answer even if it came with an insult.

because i can understand frustration, sometime to get a point across we do it like *******s and thats cool with me.

but if all you did was insult, then go **** yourself. :) yours truely DOC_M

elperfecto
07-10-2011, 09:25 AM
://img841.imageshack.us/img841/3615/lunapic1310314781907823.png

Poor punctuation in that pic.

And nice job, now would you care to answer my question or is it just too embarrassing to say?

Cumulonimbus
07-10-2011, 09:28 AM
woke up this morning and saw that ppl are still posting on this thread. just wanted to say thank you to all that have given an answer even if it came with an insult.

because i can understand frustration, sometime to get a point across we do it like *******s and thats cool with me.

but if all you did was insult, then go **** yourself. :) yours truely DOC_M

u tell them, buddy~

WonderPug
07-10-2011, 09:30 AM
What do you call a female white knight?

A dame.

juliacheh
07-10-2011, 09:31 AM
A dame.

I ain't WK anybody with a few notable exceptions.
:D

Mr.Cooper69
07-10-2011, 09:33 AM
Some peoples' head's grow, but not their body so much.


Poor punctuation in that pic.

You fail.

Above is your quote. "Peoples' head's?" Don't you mean "people's heads?" Also, the comma is unnecessary, since there is no complete thought after it. Finally, "but not their body so much" should say "but their bodies not so much."

Please don't criticize my punctuation, when the sentence that I was quoting displays the grammar of a 3-year-old infant.

elperfecto
07-10-2011, 09:44 AM
You fail.

Above is your quote. "Peoples' head's?" Don't you mean "people's heads?" Also, the comma is unnecessary, since there is no complete thought after it. Finally, "but not their body so much" should say "but their bodies not so much."

Please don't criticize my punctuation, when the sentence that I was quoting displays the grammar of a 3-year-old infant.

And apparently you're scared to answer the question? LOL don't be ridiculous, how long have you been lifting? Why not apply your "knowledge" to yourself?

D_Mac
07-10-2011, 09:54 AM
Someone has already mentioned one of the best answers to your question, and one of the most important life lessons to be learned, which is to not automatically validate and accept a statement as truth, just because some proposed "expert" has said it. In fact, you should learn to question what the "real experts" (whomever they are) have to say as well. Remember the scientific method from jr high/high school/college?
1)ask a question
2)do research
3)construct hypothesis
4)test hypothesis with experiment
5)analyze results, come to a conclusion

Sharing this seriously btw (no disrespect, no sarcasm)

As for the post workout carb thing... I'm won't speak as an "expert," because I don't consider myself to be one, but I do have a b.s. in kinesiology, so I have studied sport/nutrition/fitness/training principles for years.

The vast majority of current research has emphasized the importance of carbs in the diet for athletic/training individuals. Every study I have encountered and read states that for optimal results, that is, for the best possible outcome to a training regimen, individuals should consume carbs and protein in a 2:1 ratio within an hour after training. Period. Now, does that mean that you have to? No. Does that mean that you won't experience gains if you don't have your carbs right? No. I'm sure there's hundreds, if not thousands of people in this forum alone that could tell you the phenomenal gains they've had on junk diets, ignoring ideal macro ratios/timing etc... But if you're in the NFL, or you're an Olympic athlete, and you need to gain as much advantage (naturally and legally) as you can over the competition, are you going to make sure your macro intake is perfect, and that you're pre, during, and post workout nutrition (which includes lots of carbs) is perfect? Yes. Because you want the best possible outcome to your training. Hope this helps.

Mr.Cooper69
07-10-2011, 10:06 AM
And apparently you're scared to answer the question? LOL don't be ridiculous, how long have you been lifting? Why not apply your "knowledge" to yourself?

Last year I was 113 lbs (7/7/2010).

Before Bulk: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=126259873

End of bulk: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=132607013

67 lbs in 8 months. Your turn.

WonderPug
07-10-2011, 10:36 AM
^ You've proven by your postings to be a very knowledgeable individual. That's what matters here.

That said, awesome transformation. That's extremely impressive.

alan aragon
07-10-2011, 10:43 AM
In on entertaining thread

alan aragon
07-10-2011, 10:47 AM
Someone has already mentioned one of the best answers to your question, and one of the most important life lessons to be learned, which is to not automatically validate and accept a statement as truth, just because some proposed "expert" has said it. In fact, you should learn to question what the "real experts" (whomever they are) have to say as well. Remember the scientific method from jr high/high school/college?
1)ask a question
2)do research
3)construct hypothesis
4)test hypothesis with experiment
5)analyze results, come to a conclusion

Sharing this seriously btw (no disrespect, no sarcasm)

As for the post workout carb thing... I'm won't speak as an "expert," because I don't consider myself to be one, but I do have a b.s. in kinesiology, so I have studied sport/nutrition/fitness/training principles for years.

The vast majority of current research has emphasized the importance of carbs in the diet for athletic/training individuals. Every study I have encountered and read states that for optimal results, that is, for the best possible outcome to a training regimen, individuals should consume carbs and protein in a 2:1 ratio within an hour after training. Period. Now, does that mean that you have to? No. Does that mean that you won't experience gains if you don't have your carbs right? No. I'm sure there's hundreds, if not thousands of people in this forum alone that could tell you the phenomenal gains they've had on junk diets, ignoring ideal macro ratios/timing etc... But if you're in the NFL, or you're an Olympic athlete, and you need to gain as much advantage (naturally and legally) as you can over the competition, are you going to make sure your macro intake is perfect, and that you're pre, during, and post workout nutrition (which includes lots of carbs) is perfect? Yes. Because you want the best possible outcome to your training. Hope this helps.I think you might be hastily superimposing the principles of body composition goals (which vary) with goals that have a significant endurance objective (which also vary & can have different requirements from body composition goals).

elperfecto
07-10-2011, 10:52 AM
Last year I was 113 lbs (7/7/2010).

Before Bulk: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=126259873

End of bulk: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=132607013

67 lbs in 8 months. Your turn.

No physique pics... you don't even show your face. Hmm wonder why. But if that's true, good for you, you were extremely small when you started out and that's a huge gain in 8 months. My question is you say you're 20 in the first link, how do you go from being 20 to 22 in a matter of 8 months?
Regardless, I personally started at 135lbs when I was 14 originally. I've been through a lot of different phases in terms of style of training, nutrition, supplements, etc. My first influence for wanting to build a big strong body was to have the size for football but I also liked bodybuilding, and incorporated a bodybuilding style weight lifting regimen when I first started as a teen. My training methods later changed in favor of focusing on strength, explosiveness, agility, and sport specific training.

DOC_M
07-10-2011, 11:07 AM
I think you might be hastily superimposing the principles of body composition goals (which vary) with goals that have a significant endurance objective (which also vary & can have different requirements from body composition goals).

you bring up a good point that i failed to look at in myself. goals. as for myself I would like to look like bodybuilder, but performance is far more important to me given what I do.
I think I have a plan on how to approach this postworkout nutrition debate. time for trial and error.

D_Mac
07-10-2011, 11:29 AM
I think you might be hastily superimposing the principles of body composition goals (which vary) with goals that have a significant endurance objective (which also vary & can have different requirements from body composition goals).

good call. i was just thinkin strength and size gains (since that's what I thought OP was talking about). But even then, if someone was on a cutting diet (assuming they're goal is some specific body comp, probably to lower their BF%) i would still prescribe the normal post-workout carb to pro intake, and make sure it fit into their daily macros.

alan aragon
07-10-2011, 11:37 AM
good call. i was just thinkin strength and size gains (since that's what I thought OP was talking about). But even then, if someone was on a cutting diet (assuming they're goal is some specific body comp, probably to lower their BF%) i would still prescribe the normal post-workout carb to pro intake, and make sure it fit into their daily macros.Can you give me some research-based reasoning why you'd specifically prescribe that postworkout 2:1 ratio pf C:P given the primary goal of fat loss, assuming there aren't multiple glycogen-depleting endurance competition bouts in the same day within close proximity? Warning: I'm being Socratic... :)

I'm heading out, but there are several members here who know exactly where this might be heading & I welcome them to continue this discussion w/you. I'll be back later.

juliacheh
07-10-2011, 11:48 AM
Can you give me some research-based reasoning why you'd specifically prescribe that postworkout 2:1 ratio pf C:P given the primary goal of fat loss, assuming there aren't multiple glycogen-depleting endurance competition bouts in the same day within close proximity? Warning: I'm being Socratic... :)

I'm heading out, but there are several members here who know exactly where this might be heading & I welcome them to continue this discussion w/you. I'll be back later.

I am curious to hear that as well.
How is it relevant for fat loss specifically?

CoolJ318
07-10-2011, 02:17 PM
The supplement industry has been pushing the nutrient timing BS on people for so long it's hard for some to let go of those ideas. Read Alan's Blog, along with leangains.com and Lyle McDonalds' Bodyrecomposition. They're some of the more honest guys when it comes to what's scientifically proven or disproven when it comes to supplements and nutrition myths. They even cite the studies they get their information from! As for arguing on a forum with a bunch of people who arent in the sports nutrition field why bother unless you're just trolling to get a rise out of people. Good luck with what you're trying to do. Seeing what works best for you if they best thing to do and try not to take everything you read in a supplement ad very seriously.

Joseph1990
07-10-2011, 02:19 PM
Why can't you apply your "intelligence" to your own self? How long have you been working out?

He has the same stats as me, problem?

elperfecto
07-10-2011, 02:52 PM
He has the same stats as me, problem?

Should I be impressed by your squat on a ball? It just looks silly to me.

Mr.Cooper69
07-10-2011, 02:53 PM
No physique pics... you don't even show your face. Hmm wonder why. But if that's true, good for you, you were extremely small when you started out and that's a huge gain in 8 months. My question is you say you're 20 in the first link, how do you go from being 20 to 22 in a matter of 8 months?
Regardless, I personally started at 135lbs when I was 14 originally. I've been through a lot of different phases in terms of style of training, nutrition, supplements, etc. My first influence for wanting to build a big strong body was to have the size for football but I also liked bodybuilding, and incorporated a bodybuilding style weight lifting regimen when I first started as a teen. My training methods later changed in favor of focusing on strength, explosiveness, agility, and sport specific training.

Sorry man, I was actually lying in the nutrition threads so I could get irrelevant advice based on false stats ;). My age presently is 21. I have tried changing it multiple times, and when I look at my bodyspace it says 21, but it always shows up as 22.

Glad to hear you fulfilled your training goals as well.

Joseph1990
07-10-2011, 02:58 PM
Should I be impressed by your squat on a ball? It just looks silly to me.

Who said anything about my avi? I'm amazed at how much controversy it caused.

phozosado
07-10-2011, 03:00 PM
Who said anything about my avi? I'm amazed at how much controversy it caused.

You're about to get into an argument with one of the deepest thinkers on the forum. ;)

WonderPug
07-10-2011, 03:02 PM
You're about to get into an argument with one of the deepest thinkers on the forum. ;)

He goes at least 20 nanometers deep ;)

elperfecto
07-10-2011, 03:16 PM
Who said anything about my avi?

Who was talking to you in the first place?

Joseph1990
07-10-2011, 03:37 PM
Who was talking to you in the first place?

Would you prefer to continue with your failed attempts at bashing Mr.Cooper?

D_Mac
07-10-2011, 05:03 PM
Can you give me some research-based reasoning why you'd specifically prescribe that postworkout 2:1 ratio pf C:P given the primary goal of fat loss, assuming there aren't multiple glycogen-depleting endurance competition bouts in the same day within close proximity? Warning: I'm being Socratic... :)

I'm heading out, but there are several members here who know exactly where this might be heading & I welcome them to continue this discussion w/you. I'll be back later.

I love a good Socratic exchange! I mentioned the scientific method in an earlier post, but the Socratic method is a step above that. A gentleman's game. lol. Anywho, if someone's specific goal was fat loss, and they weren't competing in endurance events, I would still encourage the 2:1 CHO:PRO post-workout snack/meal for a couple reasons.

The first would be to prevent or discourage fatigue, which can result from inadequate glycogen replenishment and impaired protein synthesis. The physical fatigue could lead to such things as decreased energy levels and/or higher perceived exertion during training. That could cause a domino effect, leaving the individual psychologically fatigued as well, which might lead them to stray from their training plan and hinder progress towards their goal(s).

The second reason would be to maintain lean muscle mass. Why is that important in a fat loss situation? Well, this biggest fat burners we have are our muscles! If an individual can maintain their lean tissue while cutting fat, that's more muscle to burn calories. Post-workout, an individual's metabolism will still be crankin for hours and hours. With more muscle tissue, the person will burn more calories (and presumably decrease adipose tissue) even while at rest.

Those are two things that come to mind off the top of my head. :)

juliacheh
07-10-2011, 05:06 PM
D_Mac, these recommendations are unnecessarily restrictive an do not promote fat loss in any way.
Weight lifting session does not warrant any glycogen replenishment.
Maintaining muscle in caloric deficit is achieved by keeping the weight on the bar.
Sorry, but your post is nothing but pseudo-scientific semi-brotastic mumbo jumbo.

D_Mac
07-10-2011, 05:19 PM
D_Mac, these recommendations are unnecessarily restrictive an do not promote fat loss in any way.
Weight lifting session does not warrant any glycogen replenishment.
Maintaining muscle in caloric deficit is achieved by keeping the weight on the bar.
Sorry, but your post is nothing but pseudo-scientific semi-brotastic mumbo jumbo.

Ok. I'm sorry that training and nutrition principles based on decades of empirical research findings sound like "pseudo-scientific semi-brotastic mumbo jumbo" to you, but I agree with them. It is your right to disagree. :)

Joseph1990
07-10-2011, 05:20 PM
I love a good Socratic exchange! I mentioned the scientific method in an earlier post, but the Socratic method is a step above that. A gentleman's game. lol. Anywho, if someone's specific goal was fat loss, and they weren't competing in endurance events, I would still encourage the 2:1 CHO:PRO post-workout snack/meal for a couple reasons.

The first would be to prevent or discourage fatigue, which can result from inadequate glycogen replenishment and impaired protein synthesis. The physical fatigue could lead to such things as decreased energy levels and/or higher perceived exertion during training. That could cause a domino effect, leaving the individual psychologically fatigued as well, which might lead them to stray from their training plan and hinder progress towards their goal(s).

The second reason would be to maintain lean muscle mass. Why is that important in a fat loss situation? Well, this biggest fat burners we have are our muscles! If an individual can maintain their lean tissue while cutting fat, that's more muscle to burn calories. Post-workout, an individual's metabolism will still be crankin for hours and hours. With more muscle tissue, the person will burn more calories (and presumably decrease adipose tissue) even while at rest.

Those are two things that come to mind off the top of my head. :)

All wrong =D

alan aragon
07-10-2011, 05:58 PM
I would still encourage the 2:1 CHO:PRO post-workout snack/meal for a couple reasons. The first would be to prevent or discourage fatigue, which can result from inadequate glycogen replenishment and impaired protein synthesis.2 questions I would like for you to tackle here. 1st off, how would glycogen replenishment be inadequate unless someone's training session is completely glycogen-depleting, and the subsequent exhaustive session or competition phase is only a few hours afterward? 2nd question: How would muscle protein synthesis be impaired if macronutrition totals for the day were met? Research evidence for your answers, please. Regurgitation of lore is one thing, but links to *relevant* research is another.
The physical fatigue could lead to such things as decreased energy levels and/or higher perceived exertion during training. That could cause a domino effect, leaving the individual psychologically fatigued as well, which might lead them to stray from their training plan and hinder progress towards their goal(s). Once again, how would fatigue be an issue given that macronutrient totals for the day were met, and we're not talking about an endurance competitor with multiple glycogen-depleting events per day? Research-backed response, please.
The second reason would be to maintain lean muscle mass. Why is that important in a fat loss situation? Well, this biggest fat burners we have are our muscles! If an individual can maintain their lean tissue while cutting fat, that's more muscle to burn calories. Post-workout, an individual's metabolism will still be crankin for hours and hours. With more muscle tissue, the person will burn more calories (and presumably decrease adipose tissue) even while at rest. How would the maintenance of lean mass be compromised if carbs were ingested at a point (or points) aside from immediately postworkout, assuming macronutrient totals for the day were met? Again, I'd appreciate a research-backed response. Assertions minus evidence = empty claims.

C'mon bro, impress me... :D

dustinh6719
07-10-2011, 06:01 PM
I love a good Socratic exchange! I mentioned the scientific method in an earlier post, but the Socratic method is a step above that. A gentleman's game. lol. Anywho, if someone's specific goal was fat loss, and they weren't competing in endurance events, I would still encourage the 2:1 CHO:PRO post-workout snack/meal for a couple reasons.

The first would be to prevent or discourage fatigue, which can result from inadequate glycogen replenishment and impaired protein synthesis. The physical fatigue could lead to such things as decreased energy levels and/or higher perceived exertion during training. That could cause a domino effect, leaving the individual psychologically fatigued as well, which might lead them to stray from their training plan and hinder progress towards their goal(s).

The second reason would be to maintain lean muscle mass. Why is that important in a fat loss situation? Well, this biggest fat burners we have are our muscles! If an individual can maintain their lean tissue while cutting fat, that's more muscle to burn calories. Post-workout, an individual's metabolism will still be crankin for hours and hours. With more muscle tissue, the person will burn more calories (and presumably decrease adipose tissue) even while at rest.

Those are two things that come to mind off the top of my head. :)

Research>Top of head. Remember that and you might go far kid.

D_Mac
07-10-2011, 06:04 PM
well, since I'm no longer a student, I no longer have access to all the research databases, but I will email some of my old professors for un's and pw's to try and pull some articles. In the mean time, here's a dumbed down, google version to chew on: http://www.livestrong.com/article/124586-post-workout-meal-weight-loss/

D_Mac
07-10-2011, 06:05 PM
Research>Top of head. Remember that and you might go far kid.

did a 20 year old just call me-a married man with a child-a kid? eek, maybe I found the wrong online forums to join in on. !!!

alan aragon
07-10-2011, 06:08 PM
well, since I'm no longer a student, I no longer have access to all the research databases, but I will email some of my old professors for un's and pw's to try and pull some articles. In the mean time, here's a dumbed down, google version to chew on: http://www.livestrong.com/article/124586-post-workout-meal-weight-loss/A lay article? Yikes. Is this your ending response to what I thought was shaping out to become some great Socratic dialogue?? C'mon, D_Mac. I'm nudging you along gently as possible here.... :)

You can do it. Try harder, por favor.

zbrownlee
07-10-2011, 06:10 PM
in after alan

D_Mac
07-10-2011, 06:22 PM
A lay article? Yikes. Is this your ending response to what I thought was shaping out to become some great Socratic dialogue?? C'mon, D_Mac. I'm nudging you along gently as possible here.... :)

You can do it. Try harder, por favor.

at least i gave the article a disclaimer! haha. workin on more. time.

alan aragon
07-10-2011, 06:27 PM
at least i gave the article a disclaimer! haha. workin on more. time.I actually was anticipating links directly to Pubmed in support of your claims. But, I can understand if you're not familiar with Pubmed - not everyone is. I can tell you're relatively new to the game of critically appraising research evidence behind popular claims in nutrition for sports & fitness. There's no shame in that. I just wanted this discussion to lead you to a juncture where you re-think what you THINK you know. Re-read the questions I posed and you'll notice some (but not all) of the answers are built right into the questions. Depending on how you answer them would lead to more questions (& answers) that could take you beyond your current zone of assumptions.

Electricheadd
07-10-2011, 06:28 PM
at least i gave the article a disclaimer! haha. workin on more. time.

I'll help ya out bro.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18936219

Cumulonimbus
07-10-2011, 06:37 PM
I love a good Socratic exchange! I mentioned the scientific method in an earlier post, but the Socratic method is a step above that. A gentleman's game. lol. Anywho, if someone's specific goal was fat loss, and they weren't competing in endurance events, I would still encourage the 2:1 CHO:PRO post-workout snack/meal for a couple reasons.

The first would be to prevent or discourage fatigue, which can result from inadequate glycogen replenishment and impaired protein synthesis. The physical fatigue could lead to such things as decreased energy levels and/or higher perceived exertion during training. That could cause a domino effect, leaving the individual psychologically fatigued as well, which might lead them to stray from their training plan and hinder progress towards their goal(s).

The second reason would be to maintain lean muscle mass. Why is that important in a fat loss situation? Well, this biggest fat burners we have are our muscles! If an individual can maintain their lean tissue while cutting fat, that's more muscle to burn calories. Post-workout, an individual's metabolism will still be crankin for hours and hours. With more muscle tissue, the person will burn more calories (and presumably decrease adipose tissue) even while at rest.

Those are two things that come to mind off the top of my head. :)

Fail and fail.

If you think weight training warrants a fast acting carbohydrate and protein meal you are wrong.

If you think LBM really burns that much extra calories, you are also wrong.

If you think resistance training really cranks someones metabolism for hours and hours after training, well, you are wrong once again.

juliacheh
07-10-2011, 06:41 PM
I know that anecdotal evidence is useless and shouldn't be relied on.
But I love, love and love how bros always argue with Alan and super-conditioned bodybuilders, I don't know, this just cracks me up.

Cumulonimbus
07-10-2011, 06:42 PM
I know that anecdotal evidence is useless and shouldn't be relied on.
But I love, love and love how bros always argue with Alan and super-conditioned bodybuilders, I don't know, this just cracks me up.

They rather listen to the spilled over puffy juicers than us sub 200lb stupid naturals that know nothing

alan aragon
07-10-2011, 06:59 PM
I'll help ya out bro.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18936219
This ain't a postW carbz study, brah (but you knew that - I'm gonna guess you're mildly trollin ;)).

Also, this study doesn't tell us much that we couldn't have guessed. There was a 2-hour lag period between the end of the final meal & the arrival of the participants to the lab. Infusing the tracers caused another 60 minute lag between when the participants' arrived to the lab to the time they started the exercise. This makes it a full 3 hours that elapsed between the non-specified pre-exercise meal & the 2-hour training bout. Although it was necessary for making the comparison, the issue of treatment imbalance can be raised since the control group's protein intake on the testing day was 1.1 g/kg, while the supplementation in the C+P group added 0.6 g/kg. But ultimately, you're looking at acute data on AA flux instead of long-term morphological &/or performance effects. So, these outcomes are hypothesis-generating, at best.

Electricheadd
07-10-2011, 07:03 PM
I know that anecdotal evidence is useless and shouldn't be relied on.
But I love, love and love how bros always argue with Alan and super-conditioned bodybuilders, I don't know, this just cracks me up.

I was actually hoping for a good debate on the pwo topic. We have seen plenty of people in the last few days challenge IF and IIFYM but none ever bring the science along. Most spout off some stuff they regurgitated from the back of a protein tub and leave. Or use some ridiculous straw man that takes the concept to such an extreme that it supports their point.

I thought about playing devils advocate just to see it happen but as I read through Beelen's research I can already see where it would end up.

D_Mac
07-10-2011, 07:07 PM
emailed profs, first response back: "no need to waste time searching for articles Dillon, fitness and nutrition principles are what they are, and people can find whatever they want on the internet. Heck, I know the sky is blue, but I could probably find articles on the internet trying to convince me otherwise. There's no reasoning with unreasonable people. Hope you are doing well."

Is that her way of telling me I can't have the un's and pw's to the journals? lol.

Alan, much love man. Nearly impossible to find someone willing to have a respectable exchange on the internet these days. Seems like nothin but hate and spite abound.

p.s. totally aware of pub-med, just haven't used it since high school, got addicted to all the databases that Cal Poly subscribes to. I owe you more than a bunch of pub-med links! There's some awesome research on this kind of stuff, and I am gonna find it. Even if it means cracking open boxes and scanning printed materials into pdf! arrrrrg.

juliacheh
07-10-2011, 07:09 PM
LOL at fitness and nutrition principles.
Especially those pushed by the supplement companies.

Electricheadd
07-10-2011, 07:10 PM
This ain't a postW carbz study, brah (but you knew that - I'm gonna guess you're mildly trollin ;)).

Also, this study doesn't tell us much that we couldn't have guessed. There was a 2-hour lag period between the end of the final meal & the arrival of the participants to the lab. Infusing the tracers caused another 60 minute lag between when the participants' arrived to the lab to the time they started the exercise. This makes it a full 3 hours that elapsed between the non-specified pre-exercise meal & the 2-hour training bout. Although it was necessary for making the comparison, the issue of treatment imbalance can be raised since the control group's protein intake on the testing day was 1.1 g/kg, while the supplementation in the C+P group added 0.6 g/kg. But ultimately, you're looking at acute data on AA flux instead of long-term morphological &/or performance effects. So, these outcomes are hypothesis-generating, at best.

I was mildly trolling, my short search through pubmed lead me to Beelen and after reading through a few of his Abstracts I found the majority supported your position. I was more trying to help lead him to pubmed and the same conclusion.

alan aragon
07-10-2011, 07:18 PM
emailed profs, first response back: "no need to waste time searching for articles Dillon, fitness and nutrition principles are what they are, and people can find whatever they want on the internet. Heck, I know the sky is blue, but I could probably find articles on the internet trying to convince me otherwise. There's no reasoning with unreasonable people. Hope you are doing well."

Is that her way of telling me I can't have the un's and pw's to the journals? lol.

Alan, much love man. Nearly impossible to find someone willing to have a respectable exchange on the internet these days. Seems like nothin but hate and spite abound.

p.s. totally aware of pub-med, just haven't used it since high school, got addicted to all the databases that Cal Poly subscribes to. I owe you more than a bunch of pub-med links! There's some awesome research on this kind of stuff, and I am gonna find it. Even if it means cracking open boxes and scanning printed materials into pdf! arrrrrg.

Very disappointing response from your prof. Here, let me translate her for you: "I'm not familiar with the current research on this topic, thus I'd rather not discuss it."

There indeed are topics where the weight of the evidence leans more towards one side than the other. In some cases it's a landslide in one direction, in other cases it's less clear. Differences in study outcomes can almost always be attributed to differences in study design (subject characteristics, protocols, dosages, instruments, trial length, etc). The weight of the research evidence on every nutrition topic is NOT perfectly balanced 50/50 with positive & negative results. Claiming this is a lazy & irresponsible cop-out. Your prof goes online, doesn't she? Invite her to this thread with a link, & I would be happy to see how well she defends her position.

Electricheadd
07-10-2011, 07:25 PM
What are your thoughts on these Alan?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11350780

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15570142

D_Mac
07-10-2011, 07:34 PM
Very disappointing response from your prof. Here, let me translate her for you: "I'm not familiar with the current research on this topic, thus I'd rather not discuss it."

There indeed are topics where the weight of the evidence leans more towards one side than the other. In some cases it's a landslide in one direction, in other cases it's less clear. Differences in study outcomes can almost always be attributed to differences in study design (subject characteristics, protocols, dosages, instruments, trial length, etc). The weight of the research evidence on every nutrition topic is NOT perfectly balanced 50/50 with positive & negative results. Claiming this is a lazy & irresponsible cop-out. Your prof goes online, doesn't she? Invite her to this thread with a link, & I would be happy to see how well she defends her position.

totally agree about research design. I'll send her the link just for kicks. She's pretty hard core tho, don't know how well she would maintain in virtual reality. lol.

D_Mac
07-10-2011, 07:37 PM
What are your thoughts on these Alan?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11350780

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15570142

i saw these too, but what Alan and I were debating was the effects of a post-workout snack/meal containing carbs and protein in a 2:1 ratio, and it's effects on an individual trying to loose fat. I don't think either of those had to do with that population specifically (people on a fat loss plan).

alan aragon
07-10-2011, 07:39 PM
What are your thoughts on this one Alan?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11350780

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15570142 Acute effects rather than long-term effects were measured. This is a huge limitation, since it can't account for the chronic effect of adequate macros (which can make all the difference). Being familiar with the range of longer-term studies, I can tell you that in most of them that properly match macronutrition between treatments, acute findings such as these have not been corroborated.

Electricheadd
07-10-2011, 07:44 PM
i saw these too, but what Alan and I were debating was the effects of a post-workout snack/meal containing carbs and protein in a 2:1 ratio, and it's effects on an individual trying to loose fat. I don't think either of those had to do with that population specifically (people on a fat loss plan).

I apologize I was more coming at it from a nutrient timing perspective rather than a specific macro nutrient ratio. I will stop hijacking your thread now. :)

zhall616
07-10-2011, 07:50 PM
Acute effects rather than long-term effects were measured. This is a huge limitation, since it can't account for the chronic effect of adequate macros (which can make all the difference). Being familiar with the range of longer-term studies, I can tell you that in most of them that properly match macronutrition between treatments, acute findings such as these have not been corroborated.

Wouldn't it be awesome if you could be in charge of studies? That way, you could regulate all the problems/study weaknesses with typical research so that we could get relevant results.

Electricheadd
07-10-2011, 07:55 PM
Wouldn't it be awesome if you could be in charge of studies? That way, you could regulate all the problems/study weaknesses with typical research so that we could get relevant results.

I suspect I could post 50 studies and AA could find the weaknesses in all of them. I think that is why we bodybuilder/nutrition geeks tend to trust his position.

zhall616
07-10-2011, 07:56 PM
I suspect I could post 50 studies and AA could find the weaknesses in all of them. I think that is why we bodybuilder/nutrition geeks tend to trust his position.

exactly. That's why I think it would be awesome if they put Alan in charge of the studies. wishful thinking... lol

juliacheh
07-10-2011, 08:07 PM
Specific macronutrient ratio sounds even more brotastic to me than nutrient timing. :D

BRB making up meals according to ratios while I can effectively lose fat on any number of meals without regard for nutrient timing and macro composition of every single meal just by hitting targeted macros, adjusting them when needed and adding in cardio to create further caloric deficit.

Seriously why everybody wants to make it more complicated then it is?

Electricheadd
07-10-2011, 08:12 PM
Specific macronutrient ratio sounds even more brotastic to me than nutrient timing. :D

BRB making up meals according to ratios while I can effectively lose fat on any number of meals without regard for nutrient timing and macro composition of every single meal just by hitting targeted macros, adjusting them when needed and adding in cardio to create further caloric deficit.

Seriously why everybody wants to make it more complicated then it is?


LOL! I agree, the inevitable end result of the nutrient timing debate lands the loser at Martins myth page. He has dozens of research links supporting his position. Trying to debate a macro ratio along with the nutrient timing is a tough position to maintain.

juliacheh
07-10-2011, 08:16 PM
LOL! I agree, the inevitable end result of the nutrient timing debate lands the loser at Martins myth page. He has dozens of research links supporting his position. Trying to debate a macro ratio along with the nutrient timing is a tough position to maintain.

I know that some people do ratios per meal, but only because they already have some pre-made meals logged in the database and they rotate them:)

Electricheadd
07-10-2011, 08:21 PM
I know that some people do ratios per meal, but only because they already have some pre-made meals logged in the database and they rotate them:)

In Soviet Russia you eat according to food database!