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View Full Version : PWO nutrition question (knowledgable answers only, pls!)



JDkeystone
04-27-2011, 09:39 AM
I know the basic rule of thumb with PWO nutrition is to have a proper meal (containing protein and carbs of choice) usually within an hour or so of working out. But what is the absolute longest you can go without eating after finishing your workout before any sort of real detriment takes place?

I ask this because I had an impromptu "cheat" this morning when I added what was supposed to be a few tbsps of peanut butter at breakfast, but turned into several more than that lol. I'm not concerned about the extra calories or anything (if anything, I had an even better workout as a result), but I had absolutely NO appetite or desire to eat (or drink) anything after my lifting session (and all I brought with me was a shake, but even that I couldn't choke down, I was still so full). I had breakfast around 7:30 (which included about 35g protein), finished training at 11:00, and still have not consumed anything except water during this time (even now I have zero appetite for lunch).

So back to my question- what is the absolute maximum length of time I can wait before I must eat something to avoid any catabolic effects? Reps for good answers, thanks! :)

adamg8504
04-27-2011, 09:43 AM
In your case, one day isn't going to effect your progress/results at all.

And to be honest, I don't think it matters how long you wait to eat afterwards. I usually eat within and hour or so, but that is just because I am hungry. If I wasn't hungry then I would wait.

If I had to put a time frame on it, I would say a day :)

fitnessbyjay
04-27-2011, 09:44 AM
Don't worry too much, just have some food when you're hungry again. It wont matter in the long run.

WonderPug
04-27-2011, 09:44 AM
what is the absolute maximum length of time I can wait before I must eat something to avoid any catabolic effects?

Catabolism isn't like to commence, even during a complete calorie fast, for 48 to 72 hours and thus, assuming proper daily nutrition, there's really no need for concern regarding catabolism.

That said, maximizing energy levels and muscle synthesis will require at least proper daily nutrition, but that's a different standard than catabolism.

JDkeystone
04-27-2011, 09:50 AM
Catabolism isn't like to commence, even during a complete calorie fast, for 48 to 72 hours and thus, assuming proper daily nutrition, there's really no need for concern regarding catabolism.

That said, maximizing energy levels and muscle synthesis will require at least proper daily nutrition, but that's a different standard than catabolism.

Hehe so basically, my "muscle synthesis" is more or less shot, just for today, huh? ;)

Anyways thanks, y'all. Sipping on my shake right now (and trying not to gag lol). But lesson learned- no more pb at breakfast. :(

MajorTwang
04-27-2011, 09:52 AM
There are no significant or measurable 'catabolic effects' from going quite a while between workout & your PWO meal.

The whole 'PWO Anabolic Window' is something pushed by supplement companies who have a vested interest in making trainers paranoid about PWO nutrition. They create a need for a something, then sell you a product to fulfill that need.

Think about it logically. After a workout, your body is hungry, insulin sensitivity is increased & glycogen is somewhat depleted. If you don't feed straight away, you are just going to get hungrier, more insulin sensitive & more glycogen depleted, so when food arrives you will soak up even more protein & carb than you would have done otherwise.

Your workout has already caused a significant degree of catabolic damage to your muscles by lifting all those weights. If (and it's a big 'if') going a couple of hours causes additional catabolism, then it's just more damage that your body will use incoming protein to repair & adapt to.

WonderPug
04-27-2011, 09:52 AM
Hehe so basically, my "muscle synthesis" is more or less shot, just for today, huh?

No at all. Again, it's daily nutrition that's relevant. Think in terms of 24 hour units of time rather than hourly.

JDkeystone
04-27-2011, 09:56 AM
There are no significant or measurable 'catabolic effects' from going quite a while between workout & your PWO meal.

The whole 'PWO Anabolic Window' is something pushed by supplement companies who have a vested interest in making trainers paranoid about PWO nutrition. They create a need for a something, then sell you a product to fulfill that need.

Think about it logically. After a workout, your body is hungry, insulin sensitivity is increased & glycogen is somewhat depleted. If you don't feed straight away, you are just going to get hungrier, more insulin sensitive & more glycogen depleted, so when food arrives you will soak up even more protein & carb than you would have done otherwise.

Your workout has already caused a significant degree of catabolic damage to your muscles by lifting all those weights. If (and it's a big 'if') going a couple of hours causes additional catabolism, then it's just more damage that your body will use incoming protein to repair & adapt to.


No at all. Again, it's daily nutrition that's relevant. Think in terms of 24 hour units of time rather than hourly.

Cool, thanks for the replies (and to everyone else, too). Reps on r/c.

MikeK46
04-27-2011, 11:18 AM
Cool, thanks for the replies (and to everyone else, too). Reps on r/c.

Don't worry. Not only were you not catabolic, but your muscle protein synthesis wasn't not shot at all. The body has an amazing ability of anabolic (& fat-oxidative) supercompensation. In other words, the longer you go without eating, the more anabolic your next meal is going to be.

One meal per day is massively anabolic, while ten meals per day are much much less so. It all balances out in the end. This is one of the major reasons why meal timing is irrelevant for body composition.

mynameisuntz
04-27-2011, 11:22 AM
Don't worry, your muscle protein synthesis is not shot at all. The body has an amazing ability of anabolic (& fat-oxidative) supercompensation. In other words, the longer you go without eating, the more anabolic your next meal is going to be.

One meal per day is massively anabolic, while ten meals per day are much much less so. It all balances out in the end. This is one of the major reasons why meal timing is irrelevant for body composition.

Curious - what are the physiological processes going on exactly that makes a single meal per day anabolic yet multiple meals per day less so? I'm assuming it is something hormonal going on? Just wondering if you know specifically what it is that's happening in the body.

Malkira
04-27-2011, 11:26 AM
Curious - what are the physiological processes going on exactly that makes a single meal per day anabolic yet multiple meals per day less so? I'm assuming it is something hormonal going on? Just wondering if you know specifically what it is that's happening in the body.
Hormonal signaling from liver glycogen levels.

MikeK46
04-27-2011, 11:30 AM
It's definitely in large part due to various hormonal responses. When tissues are forced to work in the absence of fuels, they will often "hoard" those fuels once they are re-introduced.

Glycogen supercompensation in muscle tissue the most widely-known example of this mechanism.

mynameisuntz
04-27-2011, 11:36 AM
Hormonal signaling from liver glycogen levels.


It's definitely in large part due to various hormonal responses. When tissues are forced to work in the absence of fuels, they will often "hoard" those fuels once they are re-introduced.

Glycogen supercompensation in muscle tissue the most widely-known example of this mechanism.

Care to be more specific OR reference something that goes into the specifics? :D I'd really like to know the specific mechanisms.

Joseph1990
04-27-2011, 11:43 AM
But what is the absolute longest you can go without eating after finishing your workout before any sort of real detriment takes place?

Shouldn't ever have this problem. People like me and manu sometimes go 8 hours post training without food.

I co sign Mike and Pug as they're answers are excellent.

JDkeystone
04-27-2011, 11:44 AM
Shouldn't ever have this problem. People like me and manu sometimes go 8 hours post training without food.

Is that ideal, though?

mynameisuntz
04-27-2011, 11:45 AM
Is that ideal, though?

It's no less or more ideal than eating 30 minutes post-workout. As Alan said it, the anabolic window is misinterpreted as tiny peepholes. That's far from the case.

MikeK46
04-27-2011, 11:48 AM
Care to be more specific OR reference something that goes into the specifics? :D I'd really like to know the specific mechanisms.

Binding/unbinding of various hormones to their receptors signals translocation of transporter proteins to the plasma membrane of cells.

Joseph1990
04-27-2011, 11:48 AM
Is that ideal, though?

Neither is more beneficial so long as your macronutrients are sufficient in your diet consistently everyday. Food takes hours to digest, their still should be plenty of free flowing aminos available from previous meals.

Technically if I was to eat 90% calories/macros in one meal pre workout then train my PWO meal would not be of any importance at all. The whole "PWO" nutrition is nothing special, it is just that, the food you eat after you train because you are hungry and want to eat.

MikeK46
04-27-2011, 11:51 AM
Is that ideal, though?

On top of the anabolic supercompensation of going without nutrients for a period of time that I mentioned in my earlier post, chances are your pre-workout meal was still being digested after you finished training...minimizing this period of time to begin with.

Depending on the size of a meal, it takes a good 1-2 hours for circulating substrate levels to peak, and it takes a good 3-6 hours (or more) for everything to drop back down to baseline.

Don't worry about it. Evolution has already taken care of everything for you. For hundreds of thousands of years, our ancestors often ate once, maybe twice per day if they were really lucky.

In the words of AA, "metaphorically speaking, our physiology basically has the universe mapped out and you're thinking it needs to be taught addition & subtraction."

HunterCML
04-27-2011, 11:59 AM
Just adding in - OP they're correct in everything said. As an example, I'm trying out IF and workout in a completely fasted state. However, I do eat a friggin' massive post workout meal but plenty of people wait a long time until their fast is done to eat.

As an example I have seen people like Manu train fasted on an empty stomach, absolutely tear it up in the gym, and then go 5-8 hours without eating a thing. Their physiques are testament to how irrelevant nutrient timing is.

JDkeystone
04-27-2011, 12:15 PM
Neither is more beneficial so long as your macronutrients are sufficient in your diet consistently everyday. Food takes hours to digest, their still should be plenty of free flowing aminos available from previous meals.

Technically if I was to eat 90% calories/macros in one meal pre workout then train my PWO meal would not be of any importance at all. The whole "PWO" nutrition is nothing special, it is just that, the food you eat after you train because you are hungry and want to eat.


On top of the anabolic supercompensation of going without nutrients for a period of time that I mentioned in my earlier post, chances are your pre-workout meal was still being digested after you finished training...minimizing this period of time to begin with.

Depending on the size of a meal, it takes a good 1-2 hours for circulating substrate levels to peak, and it takes a good 3-6 hours (or more) for everything to drop back down to baseline.

Don't worry about it. Evolution has already taken care of everything for you. For hundreds of thousands of years, our ancestors often ate once, maybe twice per day if they were really lucky.

In the words of AA, "metaphorically speaking, our physiology basically has the universe mapped out and you're thinking it needs to be taught addition & subtraction."


Just adding in - OP they're correct in everything said. As an example, I'm trying out IF and workout in a completely fasted state. However, I do eat a friggin' massive post workout meal but plenty of people wait a long time until their fast is done to eat.

As an example I have seen people like Manu train fasted on an empty stomach, absolutely tear it up in the gym, and then go 5-8 hours without eating a thing. Their physiques are testament to how irrelevant nutrient timing is.

Thanks guys, appreciate the info. More reps to come. :)

Joseph1990
04-27-2011, 08:28 PM
100g oats + 30g chocolate whey pro oats then hit the gym. Got home at 3 just eating my second meal now 5 and a half hours later :)

JDkeystone
04-27-2011, 08:58 PM
100g oats + 30g chocolate whey pro oats then hit the gym. Got home at 3 just eating my second meal now 5 and a half hours later :)

lol nice. didn't end up getting hungry til almost 4 this afternoon, myself (and was literally stressing about not feeding my "broken down" muscles in time - before i thought they would start devouring themselves - ALL morning rofl). the funny sh*t we believe in sometimes ahahah... :D

PR1MO
04-27-2011, 09:13 PM
Pretty much all of the bro-science myths can be debunked here:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=128796581

pretend
04-27-2011, 10:22 PM
If you're still full from breakfast after working out, then obviously the nutrients are still there being processed, fueling those tired muscles! It's so much less stressful taking a simpler approach to nutrition than what marketers would have us follow.

Something I wonder about a lot of this stuff: what if there is no "optimal"? Our bodies sure seem to be able to adapt to a lot of various inputs, and they definitely let us know when we get it "wrong"!

Mr.Cooper69
04-27-2011, 10:35 PM
I don't eat until 3 hours after my workout is done. I really see no need to do so given how human physiology works. The anabolic window lasts up to 48 hours, so just hit your 2-day macros in that timespan.

wildthings
04-28-2011, 02:08 AM
Effect of exercise intensity on 24-h energy expenditure and nutrient oxidation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11842038

Twenty-four-hour metabolic responses to resistance exercise in women.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15705046

Post exercise energy expenditure and substrate oxidation in young women resulting from exercise bouts of different intensity.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9100214

AlwaysTryin
04-28-2011, 02:17 AM
Twenty-four-hour metabolic responses to resistance exercise in women.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15705046

what's the relevance??

iBUFFet
04-28-2011, 04:18 AM
I want to experiment with 1 meal a day (for convenience), I train in the morning, does it matter if i have my PWO meal at dinner, ie 14 hours after the workout?

MikeK46
04-28-2011, 05:54 AM
lol nice. didn't end up getting hungry til almost 4 this afternoon, myself (and was literally stressing about not feeding my "broken down" muscles in time - before i thought they would start devouring themselves - ALL morning rofl). the funny sh*t we believe in sometimes ahahah... :D

I'm on a pre-contest diet right now, 3 weeks out, so my calories are extremely low. This weekend I plan to wake up, hit the gym, and keep fasting till evening so I can shove all my calories into my face in one shot.

crss1
04-28-2011, 07:22 AM
I eat at 7pm, train at 9pm and don't eat again til 11am the next day!

JDkeystone
04-28-2011, 08:38 PM
I'm on a pre-contest diet right now, 3 weeks out, so my calories are extremely low. This weekend I plan to wake up, hit the gym, and keep fasting till evening so I can shove all my calories into my face in one shot.

How many cals you doing right now (just outta curiousity)? Do you do any refeeds while prepping? Or is it just strict dieting right up until show day?

I'm always impressed with people who can train fasted and not have it negatively affect their gym performance. The few times I've tried fasted training, my workouts were terrrrrible; half-assed lifts (definitely no PR's lol), half-assed cardio, brain fog and unable to focus on anything except the food I was going to totally devour by the time I was done heh.

MikeK46
04-28-2011, 09:15 PM
How many cals you doing right now (just outta curiousity)? Do you do any refeeds while prepping? Or is it just strict dieting right up until show day?

I'm always impressed with people who can train fasted and not have it negatively affect their gym performance. The few times I've tried fasted training, my workouts were terrrrrible; half-assed lifts (definitely no PR's lol), half-assed cardio, brain fog and unable to focus on anything except the food I was going to totally devour by the time I was done heh.

I'm at 1600 cals and still doing 1 refeed per week (to maintenance or slightly above), which I will do up until 2 weeks out (so I've got just one more left). My maintenance is quite low already so my refeed is 2000-2000 calories, so its not much of a refeed at all haha...

I normally don't train fasted either, I usually have at least something high carb a few hours prior and this deep into a cut I'll either drink some coffee or take a pre-workout (like jack3d or 1MR) a half hour before I get into the gym to wake me up.

These were taken on Tuesday but I'm already leaner tonight.

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/8922/p4261992.jpg http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/4942/p4261997.jpg

Mr.Cooper69
04-28-2011, 09:21 PM
I'm at 1600 cals and still doing 1 refeed per week (to maintenance or slightly above), which I will do up until 2 weeks out (so I've got just one more left). My maintenance is quite low already so my refeed is 2000-2000 calories, so its not much of a refeed at all haha...

I normally don't train fasted either, I usually have at least something high carb a few hours prior and this deep into a cut I'll either drink some coffee or take a pre-workout (like jack3d or 1MR) a half hour before I get into the gym to wake me up.

May I recommend a better preworkout to make your workouts a little better? :)

If you want energy:

Presurge Unleashed is like a big brother to jack3d and 1MR. Those two are essentially nothing but a stimulant overload. Presurge Unleashed has your stims, but it has legitimate performance enhancers and focus-boosting ingredients.

Another equally good one is Omega Sports Flashover.

Just thought that if you're this close pre-contest, you need the best, and jack3d and 1MR are certainly nowhere near that.

MikeK46
04-28-2011, 09:28 PM
Haha...thanks, I'll take a look into those. jack3d and 1MR do have 1,3-d in them (focus-booster). The 1MR actually works well when I take it a few hours after my last meal.

JDkeystone
04-28-2011, 09:38 PM
These were taken on Tuesday but I'm already leaner tonight.

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/8922/p4261992.jpg http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/4942/p4261997.jpg

daaaaamn...using my amateur judgment, i'd say you're at 6-8 bf% right there? either way, GJDM. 1600 cals is insanely low for your stats (that's like only ~200 cals more than what i eat while cutting), but it's obviously getting results.

anyways, good luck with your show (and pics plz of your post-contest meal/binge when it's over lol). :D

Mr.Cooper69
04-28-2011, 09:39 PM
Haha...thanks, I'll take a look into those. jack3d and 1MR do have 1,3-d in them (focus-booster). The 1MR actually works well when I take it a few hours after my last meal.

Trust me, its my job to understand the pharmacology of all these supplement ingredients. 1,3D is an NE reuptake inhibitor, the focus is derived from its synergy with caffeine. I have a thread reviewing 32 preworkout supplements that I tried to dig up but couldn't find, its late. I'll try to find it for you tomorrow.

To put it simply, the only real actives in jack3d and 1mr are geranamine and caffeine.

Presurge Unleashed has an adequately dosed complex for preventing the 1,3D crash, and it works wonders. Almost gives you a second wind. It's also loaded with nootropics. Also has ingredients that legitimately produce pumps (not that it matters, but it's an added bonus).

Flashover is basically the same deal, it's got the caffeine and geranamine, but with some more legit pump ingredients and nootropics.

Also, cellucor c4 is a more "mainstream" preworkout (since you are one of the poor mainstream consumers :p) that has your 1,3D and caffeine again, but with nitrates (idk if you've used properly dosed nitrates but they're nuts for endurance and pumps). Also has your beta-alanine adequately dosed which is rare.

MikeK46
04-28-2011, 09:40 PM
anyways, good luck with your show (and pics plz of your post-contest meal/binge when it's over lol). :D

LOL...there's one major problem with that. I am doing another show 2 weeks later!!

MikeK46
04-28-2011, 09:41 PM
Presurge Unleashed has an adequately dosed complex for preventing the 1,3D crash, and it works wonders.

Flashover is basically the same deal, it's got the caffeine and geranamine, but with some more legit pump ingredients and nootropics.

Also, cellucor c4 is a more "mainstream" preworkout (since you are one of the poor mainstream consumers :p) that has your 1,3D and caffeine again, but with nitrates (idk if you've used properly dosed nitrates but they're nuts for endurance and pumps). Also has your beta-alanine adequately dosed which is rare.

I'm down to try something new, which one of these should I order next and won't break the bank? :)

mynameisuntz
04-28-2011, 09:42 PM
LOL...there's one major problem with that. I am doing another show 2 weeks later!!

Are you seriously 160 there? You look much bigger in those pictures.

JohnBrowne
04-28-2011, 09:42 PM
beta alanine + citrulline malate + acetyl l-carnitine + l-tyrosine + caffeine + Gatorade > any ****ty pre-workout supplement

Mr.Cooper69
04-28-2011, 09:49 PM
beta alanine + citrulline malate + acetyl l-carnitine + l-tyrosine + caffeine + Gatorade > any ****ty pre-workout supplement

Agree wholeheartedly, great homemade concoction. I was just trying to keep it simply for Mike. Consider adding LCLT and PLCAR as well.

@Mike: Flashover is probably your most economical option, though I recommended those 3 because they are cheap.

If you want the absolute best, you have to pay for it: Omega Sports Ultima.

MikeK46
04-29-2011, 02:20 AM
Are you seriously 160 there? You look much bigger in those pictures.

yea...slightly under 160 in those.


Agree wholeheartedly, great homemade concoction. I was just trying to keep it simply for Mike. Consider adding LCLT and PLCAR as well.

@Mike: Flashover is probably your most economical option, though I recommended those 3 because they are cheap.

If you want the absolute best, you have to pay for it: Omega Sports Ultima.

something like 1MR for example, already has beta alanine, taurine, tyrosine, caffeine and 1,3d....so is it the citrulline malate + carnitine/LCLT/PLCAR that are the "legitimate" ones you speak of?

Flashover doesn't have either, I don't see anything different in there except phenethylamine and norvaline.

Christiffer
04-29-2011, 02:33 AM
I'm at 1600 cals and still doing 1 refeed per week (to maintenance or slightly above), which I will do up until 2 weeks out (so I've got just one more left). My maintenance is quite low already so my refeed is 2000-2000 calories, so its not much of a refeed at all haha...

I normally don't train fasted either, I usually have at least something high carb a few hours prior and this deep into a cut I'll either drink some coffee or take a pre-workout (like jack3d or 1MR) a half hour before I get into the gym to wake me up.

These were taken on Tuesday but I'm already leaner tonight.

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/8922/p4261992.jpg http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/4942/p4261997.jpg

Sick pics man. Those are some serious arms for 160. I'd say you look like 180 In these pics lol. Also 1600 cals :eek: Your right there man, stick with it and you'll be better than ready. :)

Mr.Cooper69
04-29-2011, 07:48 AM
yea...slightly under 160 in those.



something like 1MR for example, already has beta alanine, taurine, tyrosine, caffeine and 1,3d....so is it the citrulline malate + carnitine/LCLT/PLCAR that are the "legitimate" ones you speak of?

Flashover doesn't have either, I don't see anything different in there except phenethylamine and norvaline.

Lets just say you're falling prey to the proprietary blends. All those ingredients are pixie dusted in jack3d and 1mr. As in 1mr is using 1/30 the active dose.

MikeK46
04-29-2011, 08:08 AM
Makes sense. I wouldn't say "falling prey" though, as much as just wanting to reach for something quick/convenient in those times of need. I don't take anything pre-workout until I'm deep into a cut and lacking energy, so I'm not really interested in buying all the ingredients separately and mixing them myself. It's a trade-off, I know :)

Thanks for the suggestions, though, throwing some reps your way. My next purchase will definitely be one of your recommendations above.

Mr.Cooper69
04-29-2011, 08:21 AM
Makes sense. I wouldn't say "falling prey" though, as much as just wanting to reach for something quick/convenient in those times of need. I don't take anything pre-workout until I'm deep into a cut and lacking energy, so I'm not really interested in buying all the ingredients separately and mixing them myself. It's a trade-off, I know :)

Thanks for the suggestions, though, throwing some reps your way. My next purchase will definitely be one of your recommendations above.

I understand, I am definitely in the same boat as you. I actually don't use any sort of stimulants including caffeine for 11 out of 12 months of the year. I am a supplement rep, yes, but I put 99% of my effort into training and diet. The only sort of product I consistently use preworkout is ultima (stimulant-free), but that is mostly for my daily creatine and megadosed methylcobalamin (I have intrinsic factor issues). Hope all works well for you and will be following along with your progress.

MikeK46
04-29-2011, 09:07 AM
Thanks..btw I'm always willing to try supplement samples ;)

I presume malabsorption of Vitamin B12 is what you referenced? Has it been diagnosed as pernicious anemia or something else? Just curious how it was discovered, if you don't mind me asking..i.e. did you feel numbness/tingling, or more severe symptoms (i.e. spasticity, shortness of breath)...

Mr.Cooper69
04-29-2011, 09:15 AM
Thanks..btw I'm always willing to try supplement samples ;)

I presume malabsorption of Vitamin B12 is what you referenced? Has it been diagnosed as pernicious anemia or something else? Just curious how it was discovered, if you don't mind me asking..i.e. did you feel numbness/tingling, or more severe symptoms (i.e. spasticity, shortness of breath)...

Hehe kinda. I had a mild ED for a few months and that threw off a lot of numbers. I was required to get blood tests done for months, and everything seemed to recover except my b12, rbc, etc...Then they realized that it was two separate issues: the ED, and the intrinsic factor deficiency. The most notable symptoms for me are shortness of breath and cold extremities. I do get numbness in odd areas, but it seems to come and go. Since taking Ultima for 2-3 months, my b12 numbers have almost doubled. Prior to that, I was taking one of the few pharmaceutical, FDA-approved b-12 supplements, and it did next to nothing.

As for the samples, if you wanna look up some SNS products and if you see any you like, shoot me a PM.

MikeK46
04-29-2011, 09:24 AM
As for the samples, if you wanna look up some SNS products and if you see any you like, shoot me a PM.

I can't find the ingredients/nutrition label for any of the products. Is that info missing from the website or am I just blind?

Mr.Cooper69
04-29-2011, 09:31 AM
I can't find the ingredients/nutrition label for any of the products. Is that info missing from the website or am I just blind?

Our website is brand new : http://seriousnutritionsolutions.com/

If that's the one youre looking at, it appears the ingredients haven't been posted yet.

Google "t f supplements (no spaces)" and look up the sns listing on that site.

MikeK46
04-29-2011, 10:27 AM
Gotcha, thanks. PM sent!

alan aragon
04-29-2011, 11:04 AM
These were taken on Tuesday but I'm already leaner tonight.

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/8922/p4261992.jpg http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/4942/p4261997.jpgLooking fantastic, Mike. Those bi's are freakish. Whereas most people's bi's disappear in the RDB, yours just jump up for the knockout. Good job, man, all the best to you in your comp. Here's a little inspirational video of Arnold to get you through the hours where undereating & overtraining really start to test your will to forge ahead:

pdIjJ8efftk

MikeK46
04-29-2011, 09:04 PM
Looking fantastic, Mike. Those bi's are freakish. Whereas most people's bi's disappear in the RDB, yours just jump up for the knockout. Good job, man, all the best to you in your comp. Here's a little inspirational video of Arnold to get you through the hours where undereating & overtraining really start to test your will to forge ahead:

Thanks, Alan, I appreciate the kind words. I'm definitely proud of those bi's, I've been working on them since I was a fat little kid doing chin-ups in my house trying to lose weight. Love the vid, nothing like some footage Arnie to bring a smile to your face!