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freedom fighter
02-04-2007, 06:57 AM
Four US helicopters lost in Iraq in recent weeks appear to have been downed by ground fire, the US military has admitted publicly for the first time.

The US military depends heavily on helicopters to ferry soldiers and supplies, as well as to stage air strikes against suspected militants and other missions in support of ground forces.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6329353.stm

Seems to me that the insurgents are better perpared than ever by using sophisticated hand-held surface-to-air missiles to distrupt americas reliance on helicopters and are pulling them deeper into the Iraqi quagmire.


Anyone agree?

US_Ranger
02-04-2007, 08:38 AM
Four US helicopters lost in Iraq in recent weeks appear to have been downed by ground fire, the US military has admitted publicly for the first time.

The US military depends heavily on helicopters to ferry soldiers and supplies, as well as to stage air strikes against suspected militants and other missions in support of ground forces.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6329353.stm

Seems to me that the insurgents are better perpared than ever by using sophisticated hand-held surface-to-air missiles to distrupt americas reliance on helicopters and are pulling them deeper into the Iraqi quagmire.


Anyone agree?

Well, you use 2 arguments in your post.

One of them is your obvious trolling of using a small bit of news to say words like "quagmire" and to cause more of a defeatest attitude than America already has.

As for the the insurgents becoming smarter, it's possible. After all, they're getting funding, weapons and people from Iran and Syria to come in and help. A lot of the dumber ones have been killed off too. Four helicopters doesn't mean much overall though (as bad as that sounds because of the loss of life)

We have hundreds of helicopters flying daily and all over the place. It could also be attributed to some lucky shots lately. If you time an RPG right, you could hit a helicopter but it's very hard to do so.

photomasterx
02-04-2007, 09:04 AM
Seems to me that the insurgents are better perpared than ever by using sophisticated hand-held surface-to-air missiles to distrupt americas reliance on helicopters and are pulling them deeper into the Iraqi quagmire.


Anyone agree?

You don't actually need SAM's to take out helicopters. The problem here is the American forces have become complacent and routine in there activity. The helicopter groups should take new routes on a regular basis and should fly high considering the Iraqi's don't have any advanced shoulder lanched SAM's.

The Americans where probably takeing the same route on a regular basis and where flying very low and they got hit in the windscreen,exaust or rotors with Russian 7.62x54r or 12.7x108 ammo. The 12.7 will take out the heli rotors and windscreens in a single hit on most helicopters.

And also you don't actually need advanced SAM's to take out a gunship. You can do it with regular SA-7a or even b missiles. You just fire 2 at a single target. You just fire 1 then wait in between when the aircraft dispenses it's chaff and Flairs the helicopter is screwed when the next missile is fired.

The only advantage a advanced shoulder launched SAM has that it allows a wider range of engagement angles since it's seeker seeks in 2 bands and alsomakes the SAM immune/resistant to flairs/CHAFF and also has further ranges with imporved warheads.

.


.

freedom fighter
02-04-2007, 11:13 AM
You don't actually need SAM's to take out helicopters. The problem here is the American forces have become complacent and routine in there activity. The helicopter groups should take new routes on a regular basis and should fly high considering the Iraqi's don't have any advanced shoulder lanched SAM's.

The Americans where probably takeing the same route on a regular basis and where flying very low and they got hit in the windscreen,exaust or rotors with Russian 7.62x54r or 12.7x108 ammo. The 12.7 will take out the heli rotors and windscreens in a single hit on most helicopters.

And also you don't actually need advanced SAM's to take out a gunship. You can do it with regular SA-7a or even b missiles. You just fire 2 at a single target. You just fire 1 then wait in between when the aircraft dispenses it's chaff and Flairs the helicopter is screwed when the next missile is fired.

The only advantage a advanced shoulder launched SAM has that it allows a wider range of engagement angles since it's seeker seeks in 2 bands and alsomakes the SAM immune/resistant to flairs/CHAFF and also has further ranges with imporved warheads.

.


.


You seem to know your stuff photomasterx,only time will tell i suppose.

freedom fighter
02-04-2007, 11:29 AM
Well, you use 2 arguments in your post.

One of them is your obvious trolling of using a small bit of news to say words like "quagmire" and to cause more of a defeatest attitude than America already has.

As for the the insurgents becoming smarter, it's possible. After all, they're getting funding, weapons and people from Iran and Syria to come in and help. A lot of the dumber ones have been killed off too. Four helicopters doesn't mean much overall though (as bad as that sounds because of the loss of life)

We have hundreds of helicopters flying daily and all over the place. It could also be attributed to some lucky shots lately. If you time an RPG right, you could hit a helicopter but it's very hard to do so.


Yes the word "quagmire" does piss some people off,but it is exactly what the US military are in right now.

Lets just hope for america's sake,that the insurgents have just got lucky
then.

SYRIANKID
02-04-2007, 06:36 PM
I'm surprised they admitted it. Last time it was blamed on the sun's violent and deadly rays.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=929039&highlight=propaganda

Snoopis
02-04-2007, 07:15 PM
I'm surprised they admitted it. Last time it was blamed on the sun's violent and deadly rays.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=929039&highlight=propaganda

If they are being shot down by rockets coming from Iran or Syria, we're gonna hear about it!

SYRIANKID
02-04-2007, 07:25 PM
If they are being shot down by rockets coming from Iran or Syria, we're gonna hear about it!

No, no I don't think so, I think people are still going to stay nice and quiet typing furiously in their computer chairs.

*EM*
02-04-2007, 08:43 PM
Great...shoot down the things I have to fix :(

US_Ranger
02-04-2007, 09:17 PM
I'm surprised they admitted it. Last time it was blamed on the sun's violent and deadly rays.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=929039&highlight=propaganda

Helicopters are sensitive to electromagnetic rays, dust, high wind gusts and everything else.

Helicopter crashing does not always equal getting shot down

Sorry to burst your bubble.

*EM*
02-04-2007, 10:11 PM
Helicopters are sensitive to electromagnetic rays, dust, high wind gusts and everything else.

Helicopter crashing does not always equal getting shot down

Sorry to burst your bubble.
or simple mechanical failure.

Diana Ball
02-04-2007, 10:20 PM
Helicopters are sensitive to electromagnetic rays, dust, high wind gusts and everything else.

Helicopter crashing does not always equal getting shot down

Sorry to burst your bubble.

All four of the helicopters that were shot down in that past two weeks have been hit by shoulder fired anti-aircraft missiles. It isnt being reported by the mainstream media in the US, but it is being reported elsewhere. The US doesnt want to give out to much info, just like how they are now not giving statistics on those killed by snipers, or those killed by explosively formed projectile IED's.

This is a new problem. Either Russia or China has gotten shoulder fired missiles into Iraq via Iran. Or, should I say, Iran has gotten some shoulder fired missiles into Iraq, after getting them from Russia or China.

*EM*
02-04-2007, 10:22 PM
All four of the helicopters that were shot down in that past two weeks have been hit by shoulder fired anti-aircraft missiles. It isnt being reported by the mainstream media in the US, but it is being reported elsewhere. The US doesnt want to give out to much info, just like how they are now not giving statistics on those killed by snipers, or those killed by explosively formed projectile IED's.

This is a new problem. Either Russia or China has gotten shoulder fired missiles into Iraq via Iran. Or, should I say, Iran has gotten some shoulder fired missiles into Iraq, after getting them from Russia or China.
I'd say its the later.

eric9c1
02-04-2007, 11:04 PM
I'd say its the later.

I'll agree on the latter part.

and as far as the projectile IEDs that isn't really anything new. A year ago when I was there they were using them. They had discovered ways to put 155 rounds down that when they exploded, it would sent pieces of the round through our armored trucks. ( I believe they said something about placing them backwards, so the rear of the round, which was heavier would impact the truck at high velocity, penetrate then fragment. I have pictures/first hand experience of the damage this **** did too. )

Not to mention, a lot of the rounds we found were brand ****ing new looking american made 155s.... odd... and scary.

freedom fighter
02-04-2007, 11:18 PM
I'm surprised they admitted it. Last time it was blamed on the sun's violent and deadly rays.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=929039&highlight=propaganda

Does'nt surprise me,the US military ooze bull****!

eric9c1
02-04-2007, 11:24 PM
Yeah, and the "freedom fighting" terrorists infiltrating iraq are hard working, honest, fair, and pleasant people. They never tell a lie. Nor kill massive amounts of civilians as leverage for their own crooked ideas...

photomasterx
02-05-2007, 09:32 AM
Helicopters are sensitive to electromagnetic rays, dust, high wind gusts and everything else.

Helicopter crashing does not always equal getting shot down

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Yeah it does.

The US forces have admitted that where taken down by ground fire :




Iraq fire downed US helicopters

The US military relies on helicopters for a variety of missions
Four US helicopters lost in Iraq in recent weeks appear to have been downed by ground fire, the US military has admitted publicly for the first time

.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6329353.stm



Oh by the way i agree with what you said above as well. Helicopters are one of the most unstable things ever. They can be taken out by almost anything and mostly just fall out of the sky thanks to mechanical, electronic failure or some other stupid crap.

But in this specific case they where taken down by ground fire.

.

photomasterx
02-05-2007, 09:42 AM
All four of the helicopters that were shot down in that past two weeks have been hit by shoulder fired anti-aircraft missiles. It isnt being reported by the mainstream media in the US, but it is being reported elsewhere. The US doesnt want to give out to much info, just like how they are now not giving statistics on those killed by snipers, or those killed by explosively formed projectile IED's.

This is a new problem. Either Russia or China has gotten shoulder fired missiles into Iraq via Iran. Or, should I say, Iran has gotten some shoulder fired missiles into Iraq, after getting them from Russia or China.

Iranians don't buy shoulder launched surface to air missiles. They make there own.

They have made a total of 4 versions. They only currently manufacture 2 versions :

Misagh 1 and Misagh 2 which both are second generation duel band seeking surface to air missile systems.

The Iranians in the past have also made a version of the Chinese HN-5b/c whose name i can't remeber and also made a 100% copy of the American FIM-92A stinger RMB-Block-1 missiles and launchers.

They also have/make a ground launched version of the European "man-portable" RBS-70 laser riding surface to air missile system. This is probably one of the hardest to stop short range surface to air missiles in the world becuase it uses a encoded laser beam guidence system to lock onto air targets and is 100% immune from every single type of IR flair, CHAFF and even laser jammers/saturators.

Oh by the way here is a picture of the Iranian Misagh-1 from there international sales brochure :

Misagh-1 Pictire - Click on this link (http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e23/photomasterx/misagh-1.jpg)

and here is there Misagh2 missile :

Misagh-2 Pictire - Click on this link (http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e23/photomasterx/6_8411170195_L600.jpg)


.

SYRIANKID
02-05-2007, 08:27 PM
Helicopters are sensitive to electromagnetic rays, dust, high wind gusts and everything else.

Helicopter crashing does not always equal getting shot down

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Dang, now the sun, dust, and wind are all part of the axis of evil! The war on terror is going to take a little longer than we thought!

US_Ranger
02-05-2007, 08:36 PM
All four of the helicopters that were shot down in that past two weeks have been hit by shoulder fired anti-aircraft missiles. It isnt being reported by the mainstream media in the US, but it is being reported elsewhere. The US doesnt want to give out to much info, just like how they are now not giving statistics on those killed by snipers, or those killed by explosively formed projectile IED's.

This is a new problem. Either Russia or China has gotten shoulder fired missiles into Iraq via Iran. Or, should I say, Iran has gotten some shoulder fired missiles into Iraq, after getting them from Russia or China.

Incorrect.

It has been reported in the US media.

And my post was about someone else posting that everytime a helicopter crashes, it's because of enemy fire. It's very untrue.

US_Ranger
02-05-2007, 08:38 PM
Dang, now the sun, dust, and wind are all part of the axis of evil! The war on terror is going to take a little longer than we thought!

Well, if you've ever seen a dust storm in Iraq, you'd agree that it's part of the axis of evil. I've never seen **** like that in my life.

SYRIANKID
02-05-2007, 08:41 PM
Well, if you've ever seen a dust storm in Iraq, you'd agree that it's part of the axis of evil. I've never seen **** like that in my life.

Interesting. Wind related disasters were historically used against nations that prided themselves on their military strength.

Now the 'Ad behaved arrogantly through the land, against all truth and reason, and said: "Who is superior to us in strength?" What! did they not see that God, Who created them, was superior to them in strength? But they continued to reject Our Signs! So We sent against them a furious Wind (Qur'an 41:15)

US_Ranger
02-05-2007, 08:43 PM
Interesting. Wind related disasters were historically used against nations that prided themselves on their military strength.

Now the 'Ad behaved arrogantly through the land, against all truth and reason, and said: "Who is superior to us in strength?" What! did they not see that God, Who created them, was superior to them in strength? But they continued to reject Our Signs! So We sent against them a furious Wind (Qur'an 41:15)

Well he must have sent the one I saw in 2003 as well. It blocked out the damn sun and I couldn't breathe.

Do you think Allah wills dust storms or do you think nature is responsible for that?

SYRIANKID
02-05-2007, 08:50 PM
Well he must have sent the one I saw in 2003 as well. It blocked out the damn sun and I couldn't breathe.

Do you think Allah wills dust storms or do you think nature is responsible for that?

Obviously God controls nature, nothing is independent of God! Every storm, every flood, every tsunami, every hurricane.

US_Ranger
02-05-2007, 08:51 PM
Obviously God controls nature, nothing is independent of God! Every storm, every flood, every tsunami, every hurricane.

Yes, but do you think he sets nature in motion to run its own course or do you think he directly caused things such as the tsunami, specific dust storms, etc. Is he directly responsible for every act of nature?

SYRIANKID
02-05-2007, 08:54 PM
Yes, but do you think he sets nature in motion to run its own course or do you think he directly caused things such as the tsunami, specific dust storms, etc. Is he directly responsible for every act of nature?

Directly responsible. To the extent that the position and activity of subatomic particles is orchestrated.

US_Ranger
02-05-2007, 09:04 PM
Directly responsible. To the extent that the position and activity of subatomic particles is orchestrated.

Wow....very interesting.

I guess I was expecting that answer as it falls in line with most strict Muslims that I've met but it's still very interesting.

SYRIANKID
02-05-2007, 09:08 PM
I guess I was expecting that answer as it falls in line with most strict Muslims that I've met but it's still very interesting.

Oh believe it or not I'm not one of the "strict Muslims". I'm one of the moderates :D

freedom fighter
02-07-2007, 10:37 PM
Fifth US helicopter downed in 19 days. Seven dead

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6338787.stm

These insurgents have a bit more than just luck on their side!

US_Ranger
02-07-2007, 10:48 PM
Fifth US helicopter downed in 19 days. Seven dead

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6338787.stm

These insurgents have a bit more than just luck on their side!

Yes, it's called Iranian weapons.

Mark_ey
02-07-2007, 10:51 PM
Yes, it's called Iranian weapons.

ooohh another Iran blame game. Seriously get a life.

eric9c1
02-08-2007, 01:58 AM
ooohh another Iran blame game. Seriously get a life.

hahahhahahahha wow. great one. YOU telling SOMEONE ELSE to get a life?!

Lifting_Taurus
02-08-2007, 03:36 AM
ooohh another Iran blame game. Seriously get a life.

Yea, because at 17 you have first hand experience with what is going on in the Middle east and whether or not Iran is funding the insurgency.. Forget all the evidence.. Mark say's it's not true.. I guess we'll have to look elsewhere now..

HELIX35
02-08-2007, 07:21 AM
I just found out 5 mins ago the helicopter shot down yesterday was from my squadron. I knew the pilots, and was a close friends with the crew members in the back. They were men I worked and flew with in Iraq last year. One of them was the man that trained me in my job. If I hadn't been selected for MSG duty, I'd be there right now. I might have been on that very flight.

I won't say names because I don't think their families know yet, but I say RIP SGT, CPL, Capt, and 1stLt

RockyIV
02-08-2007, 07:45 AM
This is concerning to all of us. It sounds like the enemy has constructed an offensive on the helicopters.

The question now is what to do to stop it...

Snoopis
02-10-2007, 08:00 PM
Probably have to fly NOE all the time. It will open them up to small arms fire perhaps, but much harder to get a hit with a missile.

Perhaps mandated gunship escorts as well. A missile is launched, you've got a couple Cobras or Apaches blasting right back.

freedom fighter
02-23-2007, 02:18 PM
"The general said eight coalition helicopters have been shot down since Jan 20"

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/General_Discusses_Chlorine_Bombs_Helicopter_Shoot_ downs_999.html

"there are new weapons out there that are doing the damage"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6370109.stm


Whos surge is it anyway?