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View Full Version : One of America's top athiest/secular humanists attacks France for oppression



rocker1
04-11-2011, 07:33 PM
She really lashes on to the what she calls the opposite of religious intolerance (French form of secular intolerance). Basically says the display of secular intolerance is cut from the same coin as religious intolerance and that true Liberte is the ability of everyone to have choice, religious or atheist.

From the Humanist Magazine, America's top atheist journal
http://www.thehumanist.org/humanist/10_sept_oct/Knief.html

Some quotes:


...The burqa and the niqab are striking symbols for those who wear them and for those who don’t. When Western government officials and the public blindly insist that the burqa and niqab are used to oppress these women, they are in effect denying that women are intelligent individuals capable of making their own choices. There is no denying that the burqa and niqab have been and are still being used as tools to oppress some Muslim women—both individually by family members or peer groups and collectively by governments. But banning head and facial coverings is also a tool used to oppress Muslim women in Muslim and secular countries. Prior to the revolution in 1979 in Iran, women were prohibited from wearing religious head coverings, called chadors, as expressions of their faith. Many women wore the chadors while marching in the streets to protest the repressive regime. Iranian women were then forced to wear them everyday by those who seized power after the revolution. In Turkey, the ban on facial coverings stems from the belief imposed by Turkish authorities that the facial coverings and even headscarves are representative of radical Muslim groups who threaten the country’s secularism. Therefore, women who wear facial coverings are prevented from holding public offices and jobs. In short, oppression in the form of forced apparel goes both ways.

...Advocating for women’s emancipation means that all the possible choices a woman may make should be respected including how a woman chooses to express her sexuality: from the extreme of exploitation (like pornography) to the extreme of complete camouflage (like the burqa, niqab, or a nun’s habit). The responsibility of government and society is only to ensure that women have the freedom and education to make these choices for themselves.

...There is an argument that wearing the burqa or niqab violates the secularism of the society. In France, this is a particularly strong opinion among the public as reported by the French media. One could say the ban is really to help the French retain their cherished principle of liberté—at the expense of the personal liberty of those masked.

...To start such a process, Western governments should learn and understand Islam and Muslim women enough to accept that wearing a headscarf, burqa, or niqab doesn’t mean a woman is acquiescing to the male-dominated version of Islam, but until proven otherwise, she is making a valid choice to honor her faith.

SoggyDoughnut
04-11-2011, 07:48 PM
that is sweet and all, but france is france and they can make whatever the **** laws they want. If the people don't like them, they can elect different people to overturn those laws. such is life.

r0gue6
04-11-2011, 07:49 PM
http://i.imgur.com/qbFqd.gif

ONtop888
04-11-2011, 07:56 PM
I think the law is BS. Just because some Muslim majority countries oppress non-Muslims does not justify oppressing Muslims. Of course it is the nation's right to make their own laws, but we can still disagree and argue against it.

Mr Beer
04-11-2011, 07:58 PM
that is sweet and all, but france is france and they can make whatever the **** laws they want. If the people don't like them, they can elect different people to overturn those laws. such is life.

I think everyone understands that sovereign nations can enact laws which hold sway within their dominion and that through the democratic process such laws are available for review and/or removal. Not sure why you felt the need to mention this trivially obvious fact.

Xinroth
04-11-2011, 08:01 PM
I think the law is BS. Just because some Muslim majority countries oppress non-Muslims does not justify oppressing Muslims. Of course it is the nation's right to make their own laws, but we can still disagree and argue against it.

Can you elaborate on muslim countries oppressing non-muslims? Lived in Muslims countries 90% of my life and Christians were pretty much considered equal.

rocker1
04-11-2011, 08:06 PM
that is sweet and all, but france is france and they can make whatever the **** laws they want. If the people don't like them, they can elect different people to overturn those laws. such is life.

Actually they can't make whatever laws they want. The basis of secular democracy is that while majority rules, minority rights are not up for tampering. Look at our Bill Rights, the most important part of our constitution, and universally shared by Western secular democracies. It is the most undemocratic piece of legislation produced saying no matter who is in power, no matter what majority certain rights are unalienable of which the first is freedom of religion.

The French parliament passed it as a political statement but the French constitutional court has twice said the ban will not hold up in court because of "infringement on personal freedoms". Once the ban comes into full force, the law can be challenged in court then.


France's constitutional watchdog has twice warned that it could be found to infringe personal freedoms

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/14/tycoon-fund-to-fight-french-niqab-ban

ONtop888
04-11-2011, 08:07 PM
Can you elaborate on muslim countries oppressing non-muslims? Lived in Muslims countries 90% of my life and Christians were pretty much considered equal.

Christians can't convert Muslims, but Christians can be converted by Muslims. No churches allowed in Saudi Arabia. Baha'i persecution in Iran. No synagogues in Indonesia. Just a few that come to mind.

Xinroth
04-11-2011, 08:21 PM
Christians can't convert Muslims, but Christians can be converted by Muslims. No churches allowed in Saudi Arabia. Baha'i persecution in Iran. No synagogues in Indonesia. Just a few that come to mind.

Some Muslims do convert Christians, and vice versa. (It happens, they both mostly converting to atheism lately though but remain religious by name).

No argument for Saudi Arabia, It's supposed to be the holy ground for Muslims, thus the rules against Churches. However, Christians can freely practice their rights. (Not agreeing with not building churches).

Iran is not religious anymore. I doubt most would consider it religious. The government are dictator-ish/borderline extremist. Imo the reason non-Shiites over there are getting prosecuted is for political religious reasons, not solely religion. That said, most of the Persians I see, especially the ones in America, have NOTHING to do with religion.

Christians are treated very, very well in Arab countries. Jews are indifferent.
Zionists, on the other hand..

ONtop888
04-11-2011, 08:24 PM
Some Muslims do convert Christians, and vice versa. (It happens, they both mostly converting to atheism lately though but remain religious by name).

No argument for Saudi Arabia, It's supposed to be the holy ground for Muslims, thus the rules against Churches. However, Christians can freely practice their rights. (Not agreeing with not building churches).

Iran is not religious anymore. I doubt most would consider it religious. The government are dictator-ish/borderline extremist. Imo the reason non-Shiites over there are getting prosecuted is for political religious reasons, not solely religion. That said, most of the Persians I see, especially the ones in America, have NOTHING to do with religion.

Christians are treated very, very well in Arab countries. Jews are indifferent.
Zionists, on the other hand..

I was referring to government oppression like Iran's extremist government, not the people themselves. The 'Green Revolution' seemed to be comprised of very tolerant and optimistic people.

rocker1
04-11-2011, 08:26 PM
Christians can't convert Muslims, but Christians can be converted by Muslims. No churches allowed in Saudi Arabia. Baha'i persecution in Iran. No synagogues in Indonesia. Just a few that come to mind.

Stop comparing religious theocracies to secular democracies. Iran and Saudi Arabia are religious theocracies. They are not your teachers and you are not their students.

As for synagogues in Indonesia, according to the Jewish Virtual Library only about 20 Jews live in a country of hundreds of millions and there is a synagogue there.




In Surabaya, the Jewish community preserves the last synagogue in Indonesia without a rabbi.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/indonesia.html

Hagakure24
04-11-2011, 08:26 PM
what makes this lady a 'top' secular humanist/atheist? Is there some hierarchy or roster that lists rankings somewhere?

ONtop888
04-11-2011, 08:29 PM
Stop comparing religious theocracies to secular democracies. Iran and Saudi Arabia are religious theocracies. They are not your teachers and you are not their students.

As for synagogues in Indonesia, according to the Jewish Virtual Library only about 20 Jews live in a country of hundreds of millions and there is a synagogue there.

Why? I was asked about specific countries in the M.E. Not just secular democracies. Are you serious? You're not allowed to practice Judaism in Indonesia. You have to register as Muslim or Christian.

rocker1
04-11-2011, 08:30 PM
what makes this lady a 'top' secular humanist/atheist? Is there some hierarchy or roster that lists rankings somewhere?

Achievements, I suppose, just like in any other field? She is also on the board of directors of the American Humanist Association.

lemonadedildow
04-11-2011, 08:31 PM
Sure, France go ahead and make what ever laws you want, make sure you enforce it too.. But.. Make sure you mind your own fuking business as well, and don't get on other countries cases for "undemocratic" policies, like the one you just passed..

rocker1
04-11-2011, 08:34 PM
Why? I was asked about specific countries in the M.E. Not just secular democracies. Are you serious? You're not allowed to practice Judaism in Indonesia. You have to register as Muslim or Christian.

Well I am not privy to that information but what difference does it make for a Western secular democracy following the principles it charted for itself? Makes no sense.

This form of thinking is what led to the Japanese internment when members of a Western secular democracy were scapegoated for what their nation of origins did. You need to comprehend the line you are treading.

These Muslims are citizens of these countries and subject to the rights and freedoms accorded all citizens. When they fight for their freedom, they do it in the name of French citizens. You are held hostage to a psychological and subconscious usage of the "othering". Really says more about you than anything else.

ONtop888
04-11-2011, 08:36 PM
Well I am not privy to that information but what difference does it make for a Western secular democracy following the principles it charted for itself? Makes no sense.

This form of thinking is what led to the Japanese internment when members of a Western secular democracy were scapegoated for what their nation of origins did. You need to comprehend the line you are treading.

These Muslims are citizens of these countries and subject to the rights and freedoms accorded all citizens. When they fight for their freedom, they do it in the name of French citizens. You are held hostage to a psychological and subconscious usage of the "othering". Really says more about you than anything else.

Did you even read my posts or are you just delusional? I said that I'm against the law, and that extremist governments like the one in Iran don't represent the Iranian people....

Xinroth
04-11-2011, 08:38 PM
Why? I was asked about specific countries in the M.E. Not just secular democracies. Are you serious? You're not allowed to practice Judaism in Indonesia. You have to register as Muslim or Christian.

Beats me. Stupid rules are stupid. It's generally not as bad as media says it is.

Islam carried on Christian teachings which in turn carried Jewish teachings. It's mankind's fault religion ended up being such a burden. Common sense says all religions are good if followed correctly.


edit: Just wondering, why is she considered a "top humanist" by any means? I do somewhat agree with her, though.