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Painkiller
06-06-2003, 03:40 PM
Just had some blood tests and the urea was found a little high,not above the limits,but in the upper acceptable limit.Normal values are 13-50 and I had 49.

I drink a hell of water every day(1-2 gallons),and the day before the test I'm sure I had drank at least 1 gallon.by the way I don't drink much alcohol,about 1-2 beers per month.

I am a little confused,because I thought my urea numbers would be low with all that water.When I piss the color is almost as clear as water.

Told it to a buddy of mine in the gym,and told me that that may happen because of excess protein,but I don't think I consume THAT much.I weigh 183 and eat about 180-200 grams of complete protein every day.I lift 3x per week,and do cardio 3-4x,so I don't that these 200 grams of protein are too much

Does anyone know what causes the excess urea?Am I possibly eating more protein that I need?Or is it something with the sodium?I also don't think I consume too much of it

Emma-Leigh
06-06-2003, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by Painkiller
Just had some blood tests and the urea was found a little high,not above the limits,but in the upper acceptable limit.Normal values are 13-50 and I had 49.

I drink a hell of water every day(1-2 gallons),and the day before the test I'm sure I had drank at least 1 gallon.by the way I don't drink much alcohol,about 1-2 beers per month.

I am a little confused,because I thought my urea numbers would be low with all that water.When I piss the color is almost as clear as water.

Told it to a buddy of mine in the gym,and told me that that may happen because of excess protein,but I don't think I consume THAT much.I weigh 183 and eat about 180-200 grams of complete protein every day.I lift 3x per week,and do cardio 3-4x,so I don't that these 200 grams of protein are too much

Does anyone know what causes the excess urea?Am I possibly eating more protein that I need?Or is it something with the sodium?I also don't think I consume too much of it

You are still with in the normal range so I would not worry about it. Also - the thing about these ranges is that they are only guides. They are calculated from epidemiological studies and are set at values based the 'mean of the population plus or minus 2 standard deviations' which is basically a fancy way of saying that they only cover 95% of people. This means 5% of normal people will be outside the values they say are 'normal'. This is because of 'biological variability' - everyone is slightly different.

There are a couple of reasons why your Blood urea levels (or BUN) can be increased.

1. Decreased rate of excretion by your kidney - If you where dehydrated at the time your kidneys filter out less urea (but this is unlikely as you said that you had drunk a lot of water before the test). Decreased excretion would also happen if you had an underlying kidney problem (which I am sure you would know about).

2. Resorption of the urea from your urine - This is highly unlikely. It is seen when you have things like a ruptured bladder or a blockage in your urinary tract which was causing your urine build up or leak back into your body to be reabsorbed. You would kind of be sick if this was happening.

3. Increased production - This is the most likely reason why your levels are the high range of normal. Increased production of urea occurs if you are in a highly catabolic state (like if you were severely starving or had life threatening cancer), but I doubt your body would be severely catabolic so this leaves increased protein intake.

See, not all the protein you eat will be used directly by your muscles. Infact - after you eat a protein meal only about 25% of the will go initially to your muscles. About 20% is used by your liver (to make liver enzymes and proteins) and about 50% is converted in your liver into other energy sources. When this protein is converted into the other energy sources you will inevitably get a higher release of nitrogenous waste (urea) into your blood.

Plus, the more protein in your diet overall, the higher the rate of protein turn over that occurs in your body in general and the more likely you will have a slightly higher blood urea nitrogen. Also - if you are physically active your protein turn over is similarly increased. Meaning a slighly higher base level of BUN.

So, even if you are not eating too much protein you will still have a slightly higher urea level after eating protein, if you are physically active or if you have a high protein diet in general.

Maybe it was one of these....??

BullDozer
06-07-2003, 12:42 AM
I also had a urea test which came up above normal doc asked me ifi had done "strenous" excercise which could cause excess nitriogen in urea such as weight-lifting to which i said yes then i drank water and it came out normal so...

Dave2003
06-07-2003, 01:12 AM
hi guys, hi Emma

Emma, I think this is is another example to increase BCAA intake and less "massive qty of protein", imho. Day by day, I'm really considering soon an emphasis on bcaa instead of massive qty of protein per day. perhaps something like 150gr of protein (3meals, one shake or 2 meals, 2 shakes) and the rest being BCAA, say 0.3gr per kb of bodyweight (32gr in my case)

btw, does high protein intake increases urination frequency, for a same water intake ? I mean drinking 2-3liters of water and going from 100gr of protein to 200gr of protein per day ?

Emma-Leigh
06-07-2003, 06:04 AM
Originally posted by Dave2003
hi guys, hi Emma

Emma, I think this is is another example to increase BCAA intake and less "massive qty of protein", imho. Day by day, I'm really considering soon an emphasis on bcaa instead of massive qty of protein per day. perhaps something like 150gr of protein (3meals, one shake or 2 meals, 2 shakes) and the rest being BCAA, say 0.3gr per kb of bodyweight (32gr in my case)

btw, does high protein intake increases urination frequency, for a same water intake ? I mean drinking 2-3liters of water and going from 100gr of protein to 200gr of protein per day ?

I think I agree with your diet suggestions...

Diets high in protein reduce the amount of circulating amino acids available due to an increase in conversion in the liver and an increase clearance of amino acids by the kidney. However - we all know that to build muscle you need protein and that after exercise supplimentation of amino acids, and in particular indispensable amino acids (that is, the BCAA among others) greatly increases the protein synthesis in muscle tissue.

So - I think your idea seems to be about right. A moderate protein intake of about 0.7-0.8g/pound (or, 1.6-1.8g per kg) eaten steadily throughout the day, focusing on supplimentation of BCAA/indispensable amino acids after exercise (in combination with carbohydrate, both immediately and about 3 hours later), could work. Try it out... see what happens...

In regards to urine and protein - Initially, increasing your protein will cause an increase in urination even if you do not increase your water intake. This is because the the higher protein intake leads to water being 'trapped' in the urine. I will not go into details (the physiology of the kidney is VERY complex - there are lots of different parts that control the concentration of urine by altering what is in the urine) but in normal urine, water is reabsorbed by the later part of the filtering tubes in your kidney. If you increase the level of the things that act to keep the water in the urine (in the case of high protein diets these are things like amino acids, urea, calcium etc etc), then you increase the water that is left in the urine and you will increase the amount you urinate.

If you do not drink more to compensate for this increase water loss, your body will then try to decrease the amount of water you urinate out by making your urine more concentrated.

However, the amount you urinate out will still be increased and after a while this is a bad thing. The body needs to maintain adequate hydration to function properly, to maintain your electrolyte and acid/base balance and to maintain proper kidney function. Also, the body needs to remove the toxic substances in urine from its system so without adequate water to filter these things through the kidney, they can build up to toxic levels in the blood and make you damn sick. Eventually your kidney will also be damaged which leads to the establishment of a self-perpetuating cycle of kidney damage and toxin build up.

The moral - if you go onto a high protein diet drink more water.

Painkiller
06-07-2003, 06:04 AM
Emma thanks for your help.I haven't noticed any kidney problems and I'm almost sure I had drank lots of water the day before the test.By the way,I had the test at 9 o clock in the morning.I woke up at 8:30 and didn't eat or drink anything,becaue the doctor told me to do so.

I was not severaly catabolic,because the month before having the test i was bulking and had a 2-3 lbs gainI also don't think that I was very catabolic in any period of my life,I weigh around 180-185 lbs the last 5 years and I have never dropped weight very fast.

So I suppose my numbers were a little high for a norml person(but not above the higher normal limit),but about normal for a BBer,so i don't have to worry.Is this correct?

Emma-Leigh
06-07-2003, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by Painkiller
Emma thanks for your help.I haven't noticed any kidney problems and I'm almost sure I had drank lots of water the day before the test.By the way,I had the test at 9 o clock in the morning.I woke up at 8:30 and didn't eat or drink anything,becaue the doctor told me to do so.
Even a normal person can be slightly dehydrated after an evening and a morning without water. Being a body builder on a high protein diet your rate of water excretion is also higher than normal, meaning you will also dehydrate a little faster. So, if you did not drink water during the night before (as you were asleep) or the morning of the test, then you may have been a little dehydrated, which would have caused a slight increase in your values.


So I suppose my numbers were a little high for a norml person(but not above the higher normal limit),but about normal for a BBer,so i don't have to worry.Is this correct?
Your values are perfectly normal, even for a normal person. They were in the NORMAL range.

Even some NORMAL, well hydrated, non-body building people will have levels that may be higher than normal (as I said before - 5% of the healthy population will fall outside the 'normal' ranges). But as I said before, body builders often have slightly higher levels do to a higher protein turnover in their bodies.

So, If you were a normal person - I would not worry about it. As a possibly slightly dehydrated body builder there is probably even less cause for concern.

(this does not mean you should stop monitoring it all together... Just don't treat it like anything unusual but keep getting regular check ups as per normal).

Dave2003
06-07-2003, 06:34 AM
Originally posted by Emma-Leigh
I think I agree with your diet suggestions...

Diets high in protein reduce the amount of circulating amino acids available due to an increase in conversion in the liver and an increase clearance of amino acids by the kidney. However - we all know that to build muscle you need protein and that after exercise supplimentation of amino acids, and in particular indispensable amino acids (that is, the BCAA among others) greatly increases the protein synthesis in muscle tissue.

So - I think your idea seems to be about right. A moderate protein intake of about 0.7-0.8g/pound (or, 1.6-1.8g per kg) eaten steadily throughout the day, focusing on supplimentation of BCAA/indispensable amino acids after exercise (in combination with carbohydrate, both immediately and about 3 hours later), could work. Try it out... see what happens...

In regards to urine and protein - Initially, increasing your protein will cause an increase in urination even if you do not increase your water intake. This is because the the higher protein intake leads to water being 'trapped' in the urine. I will not go into details (the physiology of the kidney is VERY complex - there are lots of different parts that control the concentration of urine by altering what is in the urine) but in normal urine, water is reabsorbed by the later part of the filtering tubes in your kidney. If you increase the level of the things that act to keep the water in the urine (in the case of high protein diets these are things like amino acids, urea, calcium etc etc), then you increase the water that is left in the urine and you will increase the amount you urinate.

If you do not drink more to compensate for this increase water loss, your body will then try to decrease the amount of water you urinate out by making your urine more concentrated.

However, the amount you urinate out will still be increased and after a while this is a bad thing. The body needs to maintain adequate hydration to function properly, to maintain your electrolyte and acid/base balance and to maintain proper kidney function. Also, the body needs to remove the toxic substances in urine from its system so without adequate water to filter these things through the kidney, they can build up to toxic levels in the blood and make you damn sick. Eventually your kidney will also be damaged which leads to the establishment of a self-perpetuating cycle of kidney damage and toxin build up.

The moral - if you go onto a high protein diet drink more water.

hello Emma and thanks again for your knowedge, it IS very much appreciated.
can you see the post I made today about post workout supplements and meals timing ?
do you mean bcaa immediately after the workout and again 3hours later or bcaa immediately and then a meal 3hours later ?

in your view, how much bcaa can be absorved at the highest level in one single take ? ie, how many grams of leucine, valine, isoleucine ? do you agree B6 vit is also needed to increase their absorption and sending to the muscles ?

remarque: I'm back on training from 5years of no training.
4workouts per week, arms, chest/delts, legs,back/traps, fairly high reps (15-20, but with solid weights). no steroids of course, no particular other sports for now, sedentary life.

conclusion: I don't think I should not require massive amount of protein and would rather go with 120-150gr and 30gr of bcaa.



best
David

Painkiller
06-07-2003, 07:23 AM
Thanks a lot Emma you're perfect!

MupEHcEH
06-29-2015, 05:28 AM
"There are two main reasons for a raised BUN:
1. Increased carriage of proteins in the blood
2. Decreased clearance of proteins and protein byproducts by the kidneys"

Hello,
I have similar problems - urea level is higher that normal values, creatinine is now in the range or normal (used to be high, but i havent taken creatine for 2 months + had a rest day before the last test, prior to previous test i did not). So my question is if the reason for raised BUN is #1, should i change my diet, decrease protein, etc. (because it can cause issues in the future) or I can keep it the same and even implement creatine again. Thanks a lot :)

rydin4life
06-29-2015, 06:37 AM
Amazing how often this happens on here, take not of the last post before your reply MupEHcEH...slightly over 12 years ago...I've never seen a site with LATE replies like this one....

Mrpb
06-29-2015, 06:52 AM
Amazing how often this happens on here, take not of the last post before your reply MupEHcEH...slightly over 12 years ago...I've never seen a site with LATE replies like this one....

yeah it's what happens when people Google a specific question and then find this thread.

I don't mind though because it is a topic that is still as relevant as it was ten years ago.

To answer the topic: if you find that you have high urea levels try ditching the whey shakes. Because they are digested rapidly they're generally more likely to contribute to high urea levels than whole foods.