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catmando
02-25-2011, 08:35 AM
Collective bargaining states should step up and offer the firemen policemen and teachers jobs. That would break Walker.

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/02/25


Published on Friday, February 25, 2011 by the Associated Press
Tempers Explode as Wisconsin Assembly Passes Bill Taking Away Union Rights
by Todd Richmond

MADISON, Wisconsin -- Republicans in the Wisconsin Assembly took the first significant action on their plan to strip collective bargaining rights from most public workers, abruptly passing the measure early Friday morning before sleep-deprived Democrats realized what was happening.

The vote ended three straight days of punishing debate in the Assembly that made it the longest continuous session in Assembly history.

But the political standoff over the bill ó and the monumental protests at the state Capitol against it ó appear far from over.

The Assembly's vote sent the bill on to the Senate, but minority Democrats in that house have fled to Illinois to prevent a vote. No one knows when they will return from hiding. Republicans who control the chamber sent state troopers out looking for them at their homes on Thursday, but they turned up nothing.

"I applaud the Democrats in the Assembly for earnestly debating this bill and urge their counterparts in the state Senate to return to work and do the same," Assembly Speaker Jeff Fitzgerald, R-Horicon, said in a statement issued moments after the vote.

The plan from Republican Gov. Scott Walker contains a number of provisions he says are designed to fill the state's $137 million deficit and lay the groundwork for fixing a projected $3.6 billion shortfall in the upcoming 2011-13 budget.

The flashpoint is language that would require public workers to contribute more to their pensions and health insurance and strip them of their right to collectively bargain benefits and work conditions.

Democrats and unions see the measure as an attack on workers' rights and an attempt to cripple union support for Democrats. Union leaders say they would make pension and health care concessions if they can keep their bargaining rights, but Walker has refused to compromise.

Tens of thousands of people have jammed the Capitol since last week to protest, pounding on drums and chanting so loudly that police providing security have resorted to ear plugs. Hundreds have taken to sleeping in the building overnight, dragging in air mattresses and blankets.

With the Senate immobilized, Assembly Republicans decided to act and convened the chamber Tuesday morning.

Democrats launched a filibuster, throwing out dozens of amendments and delivering rambling speeches. Each time Republicans tried to speed up the proceedings, Democrats rose from their seats and wailed that the GOP was stifling them.

Debate had gone on for 60 hours and 15 Democrats were still waiting to speak when the vote started around 1 a.m. Friday. Speaker Pro Tem Bill Kramer, R-Waukesha, opened the roll and closed it within seconds.

Democrats looked around, bewildered. Only 13 of the 38 Democratic members managed to vote in time.

Republicans immediately marched out of the chamber in single file. The Democrats rushed at them, pumping their fists and shouting "Shame!" and "Cowards!"

The Republicans walked past them without responding.

Democrats left the chamber stunned. The protesters greeted them with a thundering chant of "Thank you!" Some Democrats teared up. Others hugged.

"What a terrible, terrible day for Wisconsin," said Rep. Jon Richards, D-Milwaukee. "I am incensed. I am shocked."

GOP leaders in the Assembly refused to speak with reporters, but earlier Friday morning Majority Leader Scott Suder, R-Abbotsford, warned Democrats that they had been given 59 hours to be heard and Republicans were ready to vote.

The governor has said that if the bill does not pass by Friday, the state will miss a deadline to refinance $165 million of debt and will be forced to start issuing layoff notices next week. However, the deadline may not as strict as he says.

The nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau said earlier this week that the debt refinancing could be pushed back as late as Tuesday to achieve the savings Walker wants. Based on a similar refinancing in 2004, about two weeks are needed after the bill becomes law to complete the deal. That means if the bill is adopted by the middle of next week, the state can still meet a March 16 deadline, the Fiscal Bureau said.

Democratic Sen. Jon Erpenbach said he and his colleagues wouldn't return until Walker compromised.

Frustrated by the delay, Senate Republican Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald, Jeff Fitzgerald's brother, ordered state troopers to find the missing Democrats, but they came up empty. Wisconsin law doesn't allow police to arrest the lawmakers, but Fitzgerald said he hoped the show of authority would have pressured them to return.

Erpenbach, who was in the Chicago area, said all 14 senators remained outside of Wisconsin.

"It's not so much the Democrats holding things up," Erpenbach said. "It's really a matter of Gov. Walker holding things up."
© 2011 Associated Press

The Thing
02-25-2011, 08:36 AM
Soo, republicans are tryng to fix the budget while the Democrats in the states and Washington fiddle while we all burn.

Bad REPUKES!!!

Fist-Of-Freedom
02-25-2011, 08:38 AM
Sounds good to me.

The Thing
02-25-2011, 08:45 AM
Collective bargaining states should step up and offer the firemen policemen and teachers jobs. That would break Walker.


Yeah...that's what those other states should do, uh huh....

ParsleyTea
02-25-2011, 08:51 AM
It is sad that it has come to this, with the close mixture of public service unions and government officials, broke governments, and now the latest disruptions of the political process with legislators running away from their jobs. Collective bargaining for public unions is a corrupt deal for tax payers. As I thought was well said this morning:

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/564112/201102241805/Rubicon-A-River-In-Wisconsin.htm

"Indeed. Walker understands that a one-time giveback means little. The state's financial straits — a $3.6 billion budget shortfall over the next two years — did not come out of nowhere. They came largely from a half-century power imbalance between the unions and the politicians with whom they collectively bargain.

In the private sector, the capitalist knows that when he negotiates with the union, if he gives away the store, he loses his shirt. In the public sector, the politicians who approve any deal have none of their own money at stake. On the contrary, the more favorably they dispose of union demands, the more likely they are to be the beneficiary of union largesse in the next election. It's the perfect cozy setup. "

And as the state of WI has learned, more money for teachers has not been the answer for better educated students.

http://www.billoreilly.com/currentcolumn


"In ten years starting in 1998, Wisconsin doubled the amount of money spent on each public school student to more than $10,000 per pupil, per year. And test scores went down! Doing the math, the equation seems to be that money is not the key to knowledge.

Discipline is.

The teachers in Wisconsin should be compensated to the best of the state's ability. But the educational gravy train is off the tracks. There's no more money. The taxpayer is tapped out.

So, in the future, if you want to teach kids you'll have to take less to do it. That may not be fair but that's the lesson that Wisconsin is teaching us. The writing is very clear on the blackboard: No more public money is on the way."

amtharin
02-25-2011, 08:52 AM
Collective bargaining states should step up and offer the firemen policemen and teachers jobs. That would break Walker.

Those states have budget issues, and cant hire anyone.

MistaO
02-25-2011, 08:54 AM
CB is not a right, forming unions is though.

TheStender
02-25-2011, 09:01 AM
The democrats should return, the bill will be passed by the republicans, then the next election they will all be voted out, democrats will overturn the bill, then the democrats will do something to piss everyone off and everyone will blame the democrats, and be voted out the next election, then the republicans will be voted in, piss people off and everyone will blame the republicans, repeat times infinity.

brighamw
02-25-2011, 09:04 AM
From OP's article:

"Democratic Sen. Jon Erpenbach said he and his colleagues wouldn't return until Walker compromised.

Frustrated by the delay, Senate Republican Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald, Jeff Fitzgerald's brother, ordered state troopers to find the missing Democrats, but they came up empty. Wisconsin law doesn't allow police to arrest the lawmakers, but Fitzgerald said he hoped the show of authority would have pressured them to return.

Erpenbach, who was in the Chicago area, said all 14 senators remained outside of Wisconsin.

"It's not so much the Democrats holding things up," Erpenbach said. "It's really a matter of Gov. Walker holding things up."

Yes, after reading the bolded parts I came to the exact same conclusion in blue as Erpenbach...

:cool:

amtharin
02-25-2011, 09:07 AM
"It's not so much the Democrats holding things up," Erpenbach said. "It's really a matter of Gov. Walker holding things up."

WTF!?!?

How can anyone be such a blatant bull****er?? Probably because he knows people like the OP will lap it up, and smile.

Jesse_l_g
02-25-2011, 09:18 AM
WTF!?!?

How can anyone be such a blatant bull****er?? Probably because he knows people like the OP will lap it up, and smile.

Some issues like this one, come down to pure partisan hackery. Its amazing how so many people canít think for themselves.

mjnmj
02-25-2011, 09:18 AM
so the Dems all leave town, purposely skipping out on their public duties their were voted in to perform, including turning in flase docctor's notes which would boil down to you or me being fired for not showing up to work or turning in false documentation... and the Reps vote.... and the Reps are the bad guys?

brighamw
02-25-2011, 09:37 AM
so the Dems all leave town, purposely skipping out on their public duties their were voted in to perform, including turning in flase docctor's notes which would boil down to you or me being fired for not showing up to work or turning in false documentation... and the Reps vote.... and the Reps are the bad guys?




http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_-43iair00Wc/SJVuw1DLM6I/AAAAAAAAAF0/0G7ZyxvPMD4/s400/Mind+Blown.jpg

dfwt70gt
02-25-2011, 09:48 AM
From OP's article:

"Democratic Sen. Jon Erpenbach said he and his colleagues wouldn't return until Walker compromised.

Frustrated by the delay, Senate Republican Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald, Jeff Fitzgerald's brother, ordered state troopers to find the missing Democrats, but they came up empty. Wisconsin law doesn't allow police to arrest the lawmakers, but Fitzgerald said he hoped the show of authority would have pressured them to return.

Erpenbach, who was in the Chicago area, said all 14 senators remained outside of Wisconsin.

"It's not so much the Democrats holding things up," Erpenbach said. "It's really a matter of Gov. Walker holding things up."

Yes, after reading the bolded parts I came to the exact same conclusion in blue as Erpenbach...

:cool:

Not sure if srs?

Walker has been on record saying he won't back down. Good for him. About time. Wish the feds could take a hint and do the same. If those cowards want to run and hide like they've been, they are the clowns who are holding this all up. The fact that he has their paychecks locked up in the house chambers and that he's had to go as far as threatening to issue pink slips goes to show that he has stood his ground and the dems are the ones who are holding this all up.

They can only delay the inevitable so long. They know its gonna pass.

Das Gildenmeister
02-25-2011, 10:04 AM
The democrats should return, the bill will be passed by the republicans, then the next election they will all be voted out, democrats will overturn the bill, then the democrats will do something to piss everyone off and everyone will blame the democrats, and be voted out the next election, then the republicans will be voted in, piss people off and everyone will blame the republicans, repeat times infinity.

this. it's sad

MistaO
02-25-2011, 10:07 AM
Do public servants who abandoned their state and bosses now return?

brighamw
02-25-2011, 11:28 AM
Not sure if srs?

Walker has been on record saying he won't back down. Good for him. About time. Wish the feds could take a hint and do the same. If those cowards want to run and hide like they've been, they are the clowns who are holding this all up. The fact that he has their paychecks locked up in the house chambers and that he's had to go as far as threatening to issue pink slips goes to show that he has stood his ground and the dems are the ones who are holding this all up.

They can only delay the inevitable so long. They know its gonna pass.


I think your sarcasm detector is broken ;)

rocksolidcrazy
02-25-2011, 11:52 AM
Right now, the democrats are playing politics with the issue. They know they gain a great deal of power from public unions.

But the problem is, we (being all states) cannot afford to continue to pay these public servants (and the great benefits they receive) in perpetuity, with the often absurd salaries they are recieving. Public unions need to be reformed, and for that I commend Gov walker. He has held firm and continued to hold his ground.

I recall democrats justifying the passing of Obamas health care plan by saying "The people elected him, he ran on these platforms, blah blah blah". Well now the shoe is on the other foot. And democrats dont seem to like it much. Walker ran on public unions reform, and balancing the states budget. The people elected him into office. So obviously the people wanted these reforms...right? ;)

ek3
02-25-2011, 12:53 PM
You surprised OP?

TheSituation651
02-25-2011, 12:58 PM
unions are a thing of the past, sorry for trying to fix the budget libs...

JAGERBOY
02-25-2011, 01:15 PM
CB is not a right, forming unions is though.

Huh?

Melkor
02-25-2011, 01:24 PM
I would like to see the outrage that would have happened if Repubs had done something similar to what the Dems did, just disappearing instead of voting on the health care bill or something. Dems would be pooping down both legs in rage.

Politics: forget principles, just make my side win and anything is okay.

dr_D
02-25-2011, 02:14 PM
brb cutting taxes to gut revenue then demanding sacrifices from the grandiose middle and lower-middle class workers

r0gue6
02-25-2011, 02:44 PM
Soo, republicans are tryng to fix the budget while the Democrats in the states and Washington fiddle while we all burn.

Bad REPUKES!!!

lol, retards still think this is about the budget.

****ing stupid.

amtharin
02-25-2011, 02:48 PM
lol, retards still think this is about the budget.

****ing stupid.

^^^ this retard still does not understand how this affects future budget.

stupid ****ing retard.

BilbrahBaggins
02-25-2011, 02:49 PM
Ruin the country's/state's fiscal situation, profit from it, wait for **** to hit the fan - i.e. fix the problem, profit on the pain this causes, look like the good guy to the ignorant masses, pass go and collect $200.

Politics is such a joke. I quit caring long ago about this bull**** game. Every man for himself. For the love of god, let me OPT OUT of Social Security. If you can't build up a nest egg to live on after 40 years baring devastating medical issue, you deserve to die on the streets.

The Thing
02-25-2011, 02:53 PM
lol, retards still think this is about the budget.

****ing stupid.

I notice this argument alot from liberals that actually have no argument. Implying naivete. They are smart because they see right through things, everyone who disagrees is just stupid.

The Thing
02-25-2011, 02:55 PM
Ruin the country's/state's fiscal situation, profit from it, wait for **** to hit the fan - i.e. fix the problem, profit on the pain this causes, look like the good guy to the ignorant masses, pass go and collect $200.

Politics is such a joke. I quit caring long ago about this bull**** game. Every man for himself. For the love of god, let me OPT OUT of Social Security.

Yeah cause republicans created social security, medicare, medicaid, fannie mae, and freddie mac.

catmando
02-25-2011, 03:00 PM
Huh?What part of "the people have a right to form unions" do you not understand?

catmando
02-25-2011, 03:06 PM
^^^ this retard still does not understand how this affects future budget.

stupid ****ing retard.^^^ this fuking retard still thinks it's about the budget. IT'S ABOUT COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AND THE EXISTENCE OF UNIONS YOU STUPID IDIOT.

catmando
02-25-2011, 03:09 PM
You surprised OP?Did you see the 'mad' smilie I used?

goody1
02-25-2011, 03:19 PM
Did you see the 'mad' smilie I used?

Nice signature. Funny you were in hiding for the past two years while the dems controlled everything. Once republicans gained back a majority you come back a few days later asking the republicans where the jobs are. Please point out one time you asked this when the dems had the majority. Also, I am not sure you want to be making fun of someones tanning habits when you were a huge supporter of Biden.

TRY OBAMA FOR WAR CRIMES NOW!!!

amtharin
02-25-2011, 03:20 PM
^^^ this fuking retard still thinks it's about the budget. IT'S ABOUT COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AND THE EXISTENCE OF UNIONS YOU STUPID IDIOT.

^^^ And then this stupid ****ing retard chimes in, and thinks that collective bargaining has no affect the budget.

urdaddyishere
02-25-2011, 03:25 PM
What part of "the people have a right to form unions" do you not understand?

at what cost? Unions had there place way back when, but just like pensions, serve no purpose in todays society.

brb working a professional job without a union or pension
brb managing my own retirement
brb not burdening society with outrages benefits with no sustainably

ATownDRock
02-25-2011, 03:27 PM
my thought process

Wisconsin is 137mil in debt

US is 13 trillion and not a single fuk was given


why should we give a fuk?

edit: yes ignorant

ImBunky
06-15-2011, 03:15 AM
Wisconsin Supreme Court lets polarizing union law pushed by Republican governor take effect

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/wisconsin-supreme-court-lets-polarizing-union-law-pushed-by-republican-governor-take-effect/2011/06/14/AG03z8UH_story.html?hpid=z2

LennardiVooDoo
06-15-2011, 03:29 AM
Wisconsin Supreme Court lets polarizing union law pushed by Republican governor take effect

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/wisconsin-supreme-court-lets-polarizing-union-law-pushed-by-republican-governor-take-effect/2011/06/14/AG03z8UH_story.html?hpid=z2

A dark day in middle-class America.
Godamn teachers earning 50k a year. We need to cut their pay and rights so that we can give corporations and the richest people in the country even more tax breaks.

JB05
06-15-2011, 03:43 AM
A dark day in middle-class America.
Godamn teachers earning 50k a year. We need to cut their pay and rights so that we can give corporations and the richest people in the country even more tax breaks.

..and I'm supposed to be sympathetic as a private sector worker earning $25,000/year with no pension? Lol GTFO

Public employees should earn what they're worth according to the market - not whatever they can strike and threaten and intimidate and lock into contract for.

LennardiVooDoo
06-15-2011, 03:47 AM
..and I'm supposed to be sympathetic as a private sector worker earning $25,000/year with no pension? Lol GTFO

Public employees should earn what they're worth according to the market - not whatever they can strike and threaten and intimidate and lock into contract for.

Public employees earn less than their private counterparts.
Don't be mad that your salary sucks. I love how you direct your frustration towards other middle-class people who struggle, like you, rather than the richest people in the country who have bought the system to make them richer and richer.

DennisR1977
06-15-2011, 03:50 AM
Public employees earn less than their private counterparts.
Don't be mad that your salary sucks. I love how you direct your frustration towards other middle-class people who struggle, like you, rather than the richest people in the country who have bought the system to make them richer and richer.

You are so ignorant. Their "rights" are not being taken away. Their salaries aren't touched, and they have to pay a small percentage of their pension and healthcare. Cry me a ****ing river. They also make more than their private counterparts, all the while with better benefits, even after this bill.

TH3SHR3DD3R
06-15-2011, 03:52 AM
Good to see people are okay with footing the bill for the private gym of the House and Senate, while the common citizen has more and more cut. gjdm

JB05
06-15-2011, 03:54 AM
Public employees earn less than their private counterparts.
Don't be mad that your salary sucks. I love how you direct your frustration towards other middle-class people who struggle, like you, rather than the richest people in the country who have bought the system to make them richer and richer.

1) $50,000 + pension > $25,000 + no pension. Unless you were comparing government teachers to non-government (ie. private school) teachers, which isn't a fair comparison. Nor is it fair to compare the few private security guard wages to police wages. They're substantially different labor markets.

2) I'm satisfied with my salary and not complaining about it. Once I have experience and am worth more, my wages will increase and/or I can switch employers. Thats how an efficient labor market works. You can take your socialist rabble rousing elsewhere.

3) The rich will always get richer no matter what economic system exists. Hard work, good decision making skills and prudent financial decisions serve one well regardless of other political issues. 90% of American millionaires are first-generation millionaires, meaning they've earned their wealth.

LennardiVooDoo
06-15-2011, 03:59 AM
1) $50,000 + pension > $25,000 + no pension. Unless you were comparing government teachers to non-government (ie. private school) teachers, which isn't a fair comparison. Nor is it fair to compare the few private security guard wages to police wages. They're substantially different labor markets.

2) I'm satisfied with my salary and not complaining about it. Once I have experience and am worth more, my wages will increase and/or I can switch employers. Thats how an efficient labor market works. You can take your socialist rabble rousing elsewhere.

3) The rich will always get richer no matter what economic system exists. Hard work, good decision making skills and prudent financial decisions serve one well regardless of other political issues. 90% of American millionaires are first-generation millionaires, meaning they've earned their wealth.

So instead of, perhaps, raising taxes on the rich to make up the budget shortfall, you're going to cut the pay of workers who need it?

Reading this actually makes me physically sick. I'm really not trying to be disrespectful, but the Americans (republicans) on this forum are so selfish it just makes me sick. Your twisted view of reality and economics absolutely blows my mind, and I am thankful that the majority of Americans are not like you.

ImBunky
06-15-2011, 03:59 AM
A dark day in middle-class America.
Godamn teachers earning 50k a year. We need to cut their pay and rights so that we can give corporations and the richest people in the country even more tax breaks.

50K a year isn't bad, and as already mentioned they receive a pension which most private sector employees do not. How many days a year does a teacher work, pretty sure that they have a lot more time off than I do.

DinoT1985
06-15-2011, 03:59 AM
at what cost? Unions had there place way back when, but just like pensions, serve no purpose in todays society.

brb working a professional job without a union or pension
brb managing my own retirement
brb not burdening society with outrages benefits with no sustainably

If you want proof of how unions can be bad, look at Uruguay. Almost impossible to fire anyone there if they are union.

Iceman1800
06-15-2011, 04:09 AM
You are so ignorant. Their "rights" are not being taken away. Their salaries aren't touched, and they have to pay a small percentage of their pension and healthcare. Cry me a ****ing river. They also make more than their private counterparts, all the while with better benefits, even after this bill.

If they make more, its because more education is generally required for those jobs. But for the most part, they make less. The right to collective bargain is being taken away. Coolective bargaining just means they have to come to the table and talk instead of just being allowed to cut wages because they want to.
And the comment about so many new millionaires because they work harder? You can't be serious. Someone like Bill Gates or Steve Jobs got rich off hard work, they deserve their money. The issue comes when people like CEO's of failed banks get multi- million dollar salaries and bonuses. You reall think they deserve that? We keepp hearing about global competition from republicans and that's why they want workers to make less. Why don't they say the same for CEO's? How much does the CEO for toyota make? $3-5 million a year compared to $30+ million made last year by Ford's CEO.

LennardiVooDoo
06-15-2011, 04:11 AM
If you want proof of how unions can be bad, look at Uruguay. Almost impossible to fire anyone there if they are union.

If you want proof on how bad capitalism can be, look at Somalia.
brb no regulation
brb no taxes
brb no gun laws
brb no public education/healthcare/social security

u see what i did there?

There was a time when unions had excessive power, early 1980s, but now power is heavily in favor of capital. I invite you to read up about how the middle-class fared before unions were formed.

also

qOP2V_np2c0

JB05
06-15-2011, 04:42 AM
So instead of, perhaps, raising taxes on the rich to make up the budget shortfall, you're going to cut the pay of workers who need it?

Reading this actually makes me physically sick. I'm really not trying to be disrespectful, but the Americans (republicans) on this forum are so selfish it just makes me sick. Your twisted view of reality and economics absolutely blows my mind, and I am thankful that the majority of Americans are not like you.

You're from Australia. You don't vote in our elections, and your opinions about Americans and claimed physical ailments are laughable and irrelevant. Have fun with your A$19/hour minimum wage while simultaneously complaining about the high cost of everything.. and you have the temerity to call our view of economics "twisted" lol.

If you want to start talking about taxing the rich, let's begin with union workers. Their pensions simply aren't sustainable anymore. This isn't the 1960's. We're in a global economy locked into competition with the likes of China and India. People don't stay with one company for 50 years as our grandparents might have. Job hopping is common, pensions are extremely costly and difficult for a non-interested entity to maintain over long periods of time. Saving for one's own retirement (via an IRA or 401k) is by far the best option.

Why should public workers receive this outdated and expensive benefit? Virtually no private sector employer offers pensions anymore. These outrageous pension costs are a large driver of government budget deficits, coupled with dwindling tax receipts due to the economic recession.

Iceman1800
06-15-2011, 04:53 AM
We're in a global economy locked into competition with the likes of China and India.
which is exactly why CEO's and other top level management shouldn't be making millions a year while asking workers to take pay cuts! The CEO of American Axle made $300 million over a 6 year period and have the balls to tell the workers they needed to take a 50% pay cut to stay competitive

LennardiVooDoo
06-15-2011, 04:53 AM
You're from Australia. You don't vote in our elections, and your opinions about Americans and claimed physical ailments are laughable and irrelevant. Have fun with your A$19/hour minimum wage while simultaneously complaining about the high cost of everything.. and you have the temerity to call our view of economics "twisted" lol.

If you want to start talking about taxing the rich, let's begin with union workers. Their pensions simply aren't sustainable anymore. This isn't the 1960's. We're in a global economy locked into competition with the likes of China and India. People don't stay with one company for 50 years as our grandparents might have. Job hopping is common, pensions are extremely costly and difficult for a non-interested entity to maintain over long periods of time. Saving for one's own retirement (via an IRA or 401k) is by far the best option.

Why should public workers receive this outdated and expensive benefit? Virtually no private sector employer offers pensions anymore. These outrageous pension costs are a large driver of government budget deficits, coupled with dwindling tax receipts due to the economic recession.

EVERYBODY needs retirement funds, yes? It has been proven that in terms of social security, pensions, and health insurance, the public sector has far less administrative costs than the private sector, the public sector is more efficient than private.
Even if you had to raise taxes to afford it, at the end of the day, people would be better off under government run retirement plans/healthcare plans than their private counterparts. .
To say that public sector pensions drive the deficit up is laughable. The government spends multitudes more on defense and tax cuts for the top1% of wage earners than it ever could on public sector pensions. You are the first and only person I have heard to bring this up. If CEOs can't afford to give their workers proper wages, perhaps they shouldn't be taking millions in bonuses every year.
Would you rather pay 400dollars for healthcare through taxes? or 700 dollars directly to a private entity for the same service. And if you really want to get into Australia (which I have never complained about, as you claim), yes, things are more expensive here, but I would much rather pay a little more for my lunch or my laptop then worry about what will happen if I get hit by a car, not worry about how I'm going to finance my education, and not worry about what happens when I retire. [url=http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/#/55555555555The OECD seems to agree with me.[/url]

JB05
06-15-2011, 05:08 AM
which is exactly why CEO's and other top level management shouldn't be making millions a year while asking workers to take pay cuts! The CEO of American Axle made $300 million over a 6 year period and have the balls to tell the workers they needed to take a 50% pay cut to stay competitive

So what? If the workers don't like it, they don't have to work there. Nobody is guaranteed a certain wage for life.. these things fluctuate. If the workers don't like it, they're free to seek out better opportunities. If that company is really run so poorly, exploiting its workers and overpaying its' CEO, then a competitor could easily swoop in and take advantage of those weaknesses. Are you suggesting the CEO is overpaid? I didn't know you were an expert in CEO compensation. I find it hard to believe that the company's board of directors (ie. investors concerned only with profit) would be willing to give up millions in unnecessary compensation to their CEO, don't you?

Free trade has been a solid economic theory since the 1830s. What alternative is there? High tariffs? We tried that in the 1930s and it only prolonged the Great Depression. Free trade has helped the entire world to raise their living standards and is currently pulling a billion people (1/6 of humanity) out of poverty in Asia and India. While it causes some short-term pain, the benefits far exceed the costs.

Try dropping the jealousy/class warfare argument for awhile and actually think about the issues for once.

JB05
06-15-2011, 05:28 AM
EVERYBODY needs retirement funds, yes? It has been proven that in terms of social security, pensions, and health insurance, the public sector has far less administrative costs than the private sector, the public sector is more efficient than private.
Even if you had to raise taxes to afford it, at the end of the day, people would be better off under government run retirement plans/healthcare plans than their private counterparts. .
To say that public sector pensions drive the deficit up is laughable. The government spends multitudes more on defense and tax cuts for the top1% of wage earners than it ever could on public sector pensions. You are the first and only person I have heard to bring this up. If CEOs can't afford to give their workers proper wages, perhaps they shouldn't be taking millions in bonuses every year.
Would you rather pay 400dollars for healthcare through taxes? or 700 dollars directly to a private entity for the same service. I'd rather have a $700 bill with an entity that I could negotiate with, set up a payment plan, sue or appeal to the media about rather than an entity that can hold a gun to my head and force me to pay $400 with no appeal. You can sue or embarass an insurance company or a hospital, you can't do that with MediCare or the government. I recently heard a story on a financial talk-radio show about a 17 year old girl who needed a $200,000 back operation to become more mobile. It wasn't covered by insurance, but after negotiating with the hospital to drop their fee and appealing to the surgeons to accept reduced pay for the operation, they has it done for $20,000... it would have been even cheaper in other countries. But I suppose just having a bureaucrat unthinkingly sign away a check for $200,000 would have been the efficient thing to do, right?

So much nonsense and misinformation here.

To start off with, CEOs only make bonuses as a tax law work-around. We have a bonus tax in place for SALARIES of over $1 million, but that bonus tax doesn't apply to "performance-based compensation." Apparently the "performance" required to receive the benefits is something like 'not burning the building down'. The bonuses are essentially salary that has been mis-labeled. Good luck getting the Feds to change it, as the media don't even report on the issue.

Defense spending is irrelevant to the finances of the state of Wisconsin. The federal government pays for the defense of all 50 states and our territories.

I'm outta time though, gotta go to work. Have fun debating socialism and fairness while living off the wages of us wealth-creators while you're in college.

DinoT1985
06-15-2011, 08:13 AM
If you want proof on how bad capitalism can be, look at Somalia.
brb no regulation
brb no taxes
brb no gun laws
brb no public education/healthcare/social security

u see what i did there?

There was a time when unions had excessive power, early 1980s, but now power is heavily in favor of capital. I invite you to read up about how the middle-class fared before unions were formed.

also

qOP2V_np2c0

I'm not a capitalist. I posted because so many of you are saying Unions are this heavenly idea for work fairness. There's a time and place for Unions but not when the budget is f*cked.

So what do you have to say about China then? We all know their working conditions and it has helped make them a world power. Do I condone it? No, but that's not the point. The point is people take advantage of unions too often, leading strikes as such.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jan/20/british-airways-cabin-crew-strike-ballot see the comments too. They took advantage of a strike and changed the reasoning for pay increase and travel benefits.

http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2010/06/21/british-airways-strike-and-human-rights-the-union-strikes-back/

ToPHeR35
06-15-2011, 09:09 AM
Thank You Wisconsin

frank112
06-15-2011, 09:14 AM
Base pay or retirement packages need to be brought down to reality for teachers, police, firefighters and other union based state/federal employees.

More than anything, it's hurting the newer/younger people entering into the fields.

Hopefully, Wisconsin is just the first of many states to do this and also hopefully we start targetting cops and firefighters as well.

AloneUnafraid
06-15-2011, 09:17 AM
VICTORY!!!!! Good, now people can finally be treated like adults.


On a side note, Yeah, Bad repukes for dealing with jobs and employment on an individual basis. They should definitely have stayed with the "deal with me and my posse" approach.

lovemyar15
06-15-2011, 09:31 AM
A dark day in middle-class America.
Godamn teachers earning 50k a year. We need to cut their pay and rights so that we can give corporations and the richest people in the country even more tax breaks.

Whats wrong with pay being based on performance instead of based on being in a union?

Merit based pay for the win!

ElMariachi
06-15-2011, 09:37 AM
Public employees earn less than their private counterparts.
Don't be mad that your salary sucks. I love how you direct your frustration towards other middle-class people who struggle, like you, rather than the richest people in the country who have bought the system to make them richer and richer.



No they don't, that idiocy has been debunked several times over.



http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-04-federal-pay_N.htm


http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-03-01-1Apublicworkers01_ST_N.htm




The tradeoff used to be this, you went into the public sector where you would be compensated less, but would have job security like a mother****er. Now people go into the public sector, are compensated more than the average guy in the private sector and still have job security like a mother, and all this is carried on the backs of your average taxpayer.