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0680496
02-01-2011, 01:45 AM
before explaining myself, this is my opinion and i wanted to share this and to find out what others think....i can be 100% wrong and i can easily change my opinion if someone gives a valid point, so please dont tell me im dumb or say "do some research before posting". Ok so protein helps to build and repair muscle and other tissues in the body and you need healthy fats for your overall health, including heart health and it can also facilitate fat loss. However carbs (besides fiber) are only useful for energy (again i can be wrong). Also, thats why Keto diets or high fat and low carb diets are so effective for muscle growth and fat loss. Im guessing people might say you also need carbs for overall health but honestly i dont beleive that, you can be extremely healthy with a no-carb or a low-carb diet. So my question is why do people emphasize on eating carbs so much?

FYI im on a 40% protein, 20% carb and 40% fat diet and its been working great.

AlwaysTryin
02-01-2011, 01:57 AM
Sure it can be done

carbs spare muscle on a cut more than any other macro plus provide a wider variety of food choices and lifestyle

however just like EVERYTHING in life it's all up to the person to choose what they want

docchio
02-01-2011, 01:59 AM
Sure it can be done

carbs spare muscle on a cut more than any other macro plus provide a wider variety of food choices and lifestyle

however just like EVERYTHING in life it's all up to the person to choose what they want

^ what he said

docchio
02-01-2011, 02:01 AM
Is there not issues related to the fat content of low carbohydrate diets, and its impact on organ health? like hardening of the arteries etc

ktennies
02-01-2011, 02:06 AM
Useless? Absolutely not.

Look at your typical bodybuilder's diet. This is the only argument I will give, because there is a ton of information out there which shows the benefits of carbohydrates in one's diet.

ktennies
02-01-2011, 02:09 AM
As far as your health is concerned (if we take the subject away from bodybuilding for a second), good carbohydrate sources are often vitamin and fiber rich. The only time I ever go low carb is on a cut when my overall calories are low anyway, and I feel a multi and fiber supplement are both essential.

Melamed
02-01-2011, 02:17 AM
Carbs are the opposite of usless..
Carbs are source of energy it is very importent for your muscles..
And listen to AlwaysTryin, he is carbs' fan =]

AlwaysTryin
02-01-2011, 02:25 AM
Carbs are the opposite of usless..
Carbs are source of energy it is very importent for your muscles..
And listen to AlwaysTryin, he is carbs' fan =]

I'm actually a protein fan (love meats, dairy etc) but know from experience cutting low carb for a comp how much muscle can be lost, regardless of protein intake

Melamed
02-01-2011, 02:38 AM
I'm actually a protein fan (love meats, dairy etc) but know from experience cutting low carb for a comp how much muscle can be lost, regardless of protein intake

Actually my cutting plane in the future is low-carb because I want the first time in my life to be 8-9% body fat(I was fat kid and all fat kids' dreams is getting ABS :) ) and keto/carb-cycling will do the job.
If I do "regular" diet I will reach the 12% body fat but I want to lose more body fat so I will do keto.
This isn't relevant for now but still planing the future is a good thing..
And yes I know I will probably lose some muscles but If I do it right and moderate I'll reduce the muscles loss.

AlwaysTryin
02-01-2011, 02:50 AM
Actually my cutting plane in the future is low-carb because I want the first time in my life to be 8-9% body fat(I was fat kid and all fat kids' dreams is getting ABS :) ) and keto/carb-cycling will do the job.
If I do "regular" diet I will reach the 12% body fat but I want to lose more body fat so I will do keto.
This isn't relevant for now but still planing the future is a good thing..
And yes I know I will probably lose some muscles but If I do it right and moderate I'll reduce the muscles loss.

And you can make <6% bodyfat with carbs...

Melamed
02-01-2011, 02:52 AM
And you can make <6% bodyfat with carbs...

I have never heard about people who reach the 6% without low carb diet, but if you say so it worth a try..

AlwaysTryin
02-01-2011, 03:05 AM
I have never heard about people who reach the 6% without low carb diet, but if you say so it worth a try..

Myself, Webber91, Ronin_ts, I believe quelly and ErickStevens..

Melamed
02-01-2011, 03:11 AM
Myself, Webber91, Ronin_ts, I believe quelly and ErickStevens..

So why a lot of people stick to keto diet? actually keto diet is more tasty and enjoyable than regular IMO..(of course the energy lack is the disadvantage of this diet)
You can eat high fat foods and enjoy it (this is the only reason I can think about..)

AlwaysTryin
02-01-2011, 03:16 AM
So why a lot of people stick to keto diet? actually keto diet is more tasty and enjoyable than regular IMO..(of course the energy lack is the disadvantage of this diet)
You can eat high fat foods and enjoy it (this is the only reason I can think about..)

Because they like water weight loss and feel they look leaner. Anyway not getting into a keto v non keto diet

I will just leave you with one last thought. Do you see jay cutler etc avoiding carbs? How lean are they?

Melamed
02-01-2011, 03:22 AM
Because they like water weight loss and feel they look leaner. Anyway not getting into a keto v non keto diet

I will just leave you with one last thought. Do you see jay cutler etc avoiding carbs? How lean are they?

Good point.
But I also like losing water weight and look leaner, I know its pathetic but try to understand me as a fat former kid.(I bulking now to gain some mass and really want to look leaner and shredded after cutting)
And jay cutler and all the other pros don't do keto diet but I don't think we need to compare because they use other things.. (you know what I mean)
I really like to discuss with you.

ven33
02-01-2011, 04:28 AM
I have never heard about people who reach the 6% without low carb diet, but if you say so it worth a try..

It's simple math. You don't lose fat by not eating carbs. If you've been around long enough and can read you would see us always telling people its about calories and macros. If you are in a deficit for long enough you will get to 6%.

ErickStevens
02-01-2011, 04:36 AM
I have never heard about people who reach the 6% without low carb diet, but if you say so it worth a try..

http://www.erickstevens.net/2weeksout.jpg

ven33
02-01-2011, 04:39 AM
Haha Eric thanks for the back up.

desslok
02-01-2011, 05:40 AM
thats why Keto diets or high fat and low carb diets are so effective for muscle growth

Are you trying to say its easier to build muscle on keto?

zpm
02-01-2011, 06:34 AM
depends if you are talking about a regular lifestyle or a bodybuilding lifestyle.
On a regular lifestyle carbs are not required because the minimum of glucose we need,we can produce by either overeating protein or eating our own muscle.(glucogenesis)
From a BB POV,yes it's required that you eat at least 100g to prevent ketosis and nitrogen loss.

belairdfence99
02-01-2011, 06:53 AM
before explaining myself, this is my opinion and i wanted to share this and to find out what others think....i can be 100% wrong and i can easily change my opinion if someone gives a valid point, so please dont tell me im dumb or say "do some research before posting". Ok so protein helps to build and repair muscle and other tissues in the body and you need healthy fats for your overall health, including heart health and it can also facilitate fat loss. However carbs (besides fiber) are only useful for energy (again i can be wrong). Also, thats why Keto diets or high fat and low carb diets are so effective for muscle growth and fat loss. Im guessing people might say you also need carbs for overall health but honestly i dont beleive that, you can be extremely healthy with a no-carb or a low-carb diet. So my question is why do people emphasize on eating carbs so much?

FYI im on a 40% protein, 20% carb and 40% fat diet and its been working great.

Carbs are your body's preferred source of energy. They're used in your muscles as energy too. Any other calorie has to be converted into carbs so your body can use it for energy. There's a pretty clear difference in energy levels when you up your carbs. Plus, carbs often come with foods like fruit/veggies that have a dense micro-nutrient profile. Protein/fat play important roles in the body, but carbs are what your body wants.

FilthBox
02-01-2011, 06:57 AM
Carbs are particularly important for the runners of bodybuilding.com I would imagine.

They're certainly extremely important for myself. Rolled oats and whey pre-run/workout + complex carbs + natural proteins post workout has me energized, vascular, and seeing results day in and day out.

lee__d
02-01-2011, 06:57 AM
unessential=/=useless

wshiller
02-01-2011, 06:58 AM
Hey, I like my carbs, and probably wouldn't go below 35% even on a cut, but if its working for you, I say go for it!

MikeK46
02-01-2011, 08:52 AM
Two reasons why most go low-carb and then no-carb:
1. When dropping calories way down, fat intake should still be sufficient while protein requirements move to the very high end, leaving very little room for carbs (non-essential).
2, Water weight loss prior to contest.

psychodiver9
02-01-2011, 09:00 AM
http://www.erickstevens.net/2weeksout.jpg
Thread=over!

KelvinSwole
02-01-2011, 02:59 PM
Because they like water weight loss and feel they look leaner. Anyway not getting into a keto v non keto diet

I will just leave you with one last thought. Do you see jay cutler etc avoiding carbs? How lean are they?

I don't want to join the debate but your last point is moot. Guys like Jay Cutler are juiced up like crazy, use lipolytic agents on cuts (or clenbuterol), and have supernatural abilities to drop weight. You can't compare a normal person's metabolism to Cutler's...

Fury22
02-01-2011, 04:06 PM
Carbs are your body's preferred source of energy. They're used in your muscles as energy too. Any other calorie has to be converted into carbs so your body can use it for energy. There's a pretty clear difference in energy levels when you up your carbs. Plus, carbs often come with foods like fruit/veggies that have a dense micro-nutrient profile. Protein/fat play important roles in the body, but carbs are what your body wants.

Fat is actually a much more stable source of energy. Carbs (IMO for most people) tend to lead to over consumption since they provide a quicker acting but shorter lasting source of energy. I'm not anti carb, but you seem to think carbs are essential, which is incorrect.

Fat and Protein play VITAL roles in the body, and carbs are unessential.

And as far as they energy thing goes, it's not always the case. Once someone adjust to a low carb/ketogenic diet, they are fine and find that they are more energetic or just as they were before. Many times people on keto are also on restricted calorie diets for some specific reason, therefore their energy levels are low due to being in a caloric deficit. Other people don't give themselves time to adjust and add in carbs because they feel tired then complain that about it. Usually from what I have seen this is the case.


unessential=/=useless

^^This. Which is why IMO they should be at the back of your macro priorities to compliment your needs. But they can and are useful but not necessary. Usually carb intake should be dependent on activity level, chosen activity, lifestyle, illness (if applicable, ie Diabetes), etc. They are unessential to survival but far from useless.

almightyares
02-01-2011, 04:16 PM
I couldnt go low carb...it would be ridiculously hard to keep a somewhat normal life.

keithhodge74
02-01-2011, 04:35 PM
carbs are your body's primary energy source and your body was built to run on carbs....with out carbs you will not build much muscle if any and personally I dont think over the long haul its healthy. I would go so far as to say carbs are more important than protein for building muscle...i have been on both sides of the fence and have tried both so I speak from experience.... for more muscle building tips you can visit my blog at
http://www.2buildmusclefast.com/



before explaining myself, this is my opinion and i wanted to share this and to find out what others think....i can be 100% wrong and i can easily change my opinion if someone gives a valid point, so please dont tell me im dumb or say "do some research before posting". Ok so protein helps to build and repair muscle and other tissues in the body and you need healthy fats for your overall health, including heart health and it can also facilitate fat loss. However carbs (besides fiber) are only useful for energy (again i can be wrong). Also, thats why Keto diets or high fat and low carb diets are so effective for muscle growth and fat loss. Im guessing people might say you also need carbs for overall health but honestly i dont beleive that, you can be extremely healthy with a no-carb or a low-carb diet. So my question is why do people emphasize on eating carbs so much?

FYI im on a 40% protein, 20% carb and 40% fat diet and its been working great.

Deano87
02-01-2011, 04:42 PM
If bulking, would it help to increase carb consumption?
Then deacrease whilst cutting?
Isnt that the best way of doing it if you're wanting to gain size?
Because keto eats muscle too right?

AlwaysTryin
02-01-2011, 04:56 PM
I don't want to join the debate but your last point is moot. Guys like Jay Cutler are juiced up like crazy, use lipolytic agents on cuts (or clenbuterol), and have supernatural abilities to drop weight. You can't compare a normal person's metabolism to Cutler's...

I never was, I was simply using them as an example of eating carbs as I doubt he knows who quelly etc are

AlwaysTryin
02-01-2011, 04:57 PM
If bulking, would it help to increase carb consumption?
Then deacrease whilst cutting?
Isnt that the best way of doing it if you're wanting to gain size?
Because keto eats muscle too right?

Carbs/Fats help on a bulk, normally people adjust carbs to increase/decrease calories like you said and leave fat/protein at set amounts

greekmanman
02-01-2011, 05:32 PM
I can't believe the amount of broscience in this thread lol

AlwaysTryin
02-01-2011, 05:41 PM
I can't believe the amount of broscience in this thread lol

which?

DOC_M
02-01-2011, 05:49 PM
I love my carbs!!(thats why i will never have a sixpack, i know)

but "useless" is a harsh word to use for a macro that can regulate one of the bodies strongest reactions (insulin)

tell a diabetic that carbs are useless!!!! not enough carbs?they can die, too many carbs? they can die

most of us are lucky that our bodies are smart enough and strong enough to be able to reset even after we do unatural things to it for a long time. but some arent, play with your sugar intake to long and you can alter your bodies insuling sensitivity for the worst.

good luck

IntraVol
02-01-2011, 06:37 PM
Carbohydrates are the main fuel source for the brain and skeletal muscle.

Enough said!

juliacheh
02-01-2011, 06:46 PM
Eating more carbs allows to me not to eat so much protein, and I still gain muscle and lose fat without any problems. Carbs are protein sparing, healthy, delicious, and I freaking love them!:)

MikeK46
02-01-2011, 07:14 PM
which?

probably the stuff about carbs being essential, necessary for brain function, body built to run on carbs, won't gain any lean mass without carbs, more important than protein etc. (keithhodge74 contributed a lot of it...he even made a thread saying carbs are more important than protein).

greekmanman's got a point.

0680496
02-01-2011, 07:50 PM
ok saying carbs are useless is abit harsh...so i would say that carbs are not essential and imo replacing your carbs with healthy fats can be much more beneficial (while maintaining the same amount of calories) and also, if im not mistaken, if you are in a low carb or no carb diet, your body uses stored fat as fuel more easily....and also does anybody know your body's order of priority for which sources of energy are burned first? (between carbs, fats, protein and stored fat, im pretty sure carb is #1)

Acevedo85
02-01-2011, 07:53 PM
so much bull**** in this thread lol

carbs are not essential

period

MikeK46
02-01-2011, 08:03 PM
and also does anybody know your body's order of priority for which sources of energy are burned first? (between carbs, fats, protein and stored fat, im pretty sure carb is #1)

alcohol -> carbs -> fatty acids -> amino acids

increase in carbs = less fatty acids used for energy, more fatty acids stored
decrease in carbs = more fatty acids used to energy, less fatty acids stored

increase in fat/protein has little effect on how much fat/protein will be used for energy vs. how much is stored

greekmanman
02-01-2011, 08:53 PM
probably the stuff about carbs being essential, necessary for brain function, body built to run on carbs, won't gain any lean mass without carbs, more important than protein etc. (keithhodge74 contributed a lot of it...he even made a thread saying carbs are more important than protein).

greekmanman's got a point.

Thanks for bringing this thread back to reality mike.


so much bull**** in this thread lol

carbs are not essential

period

Nice and concise; I like that.


alcohol -> carbs -> fatty acids -> amino acids

increase in carbs = less fatty acids used for energy, more fatty acids stored
decrease in carbs = more fatty acids used to energy, less fatty acids stored

increase in fat/protein has little effect on how much fat/protein will be used for energy vs. how much is stored

Spot on mike.


Carbohydrates are very essential! Primary source of energy during high intensity forms of exercise. regulates fat/protein metabolism, nervous system's main reliance for energy.
Around 75-80% of carbohydrates are stored within the muscle or as muscle glycogen. 18-24% stored in the liver also as glycogen and another 1-2% are stored in the blood. These percentages can vary though.
Please tell me, without the intake of carbohydrates, what will you use as your primary source of energy during bouts of exercise?
Protein provides very little amounts of energy.
Fat used as energy in the form of Free fatty acids is usually utilized at the ending part of a high intensity exercise session.
Fat is the large portion of energy during long, less intense exercise, but fats are way to slow for all energy demands of intense muscular activity.
Carbohydrates transfer to energy 2x faster than fat/protein.

I don't mean to be rude but this post is just full of blanket statements that are either misleading or just plain false...

dirtyram
02-01-2011, 09:04 PM
Thanks for bringing this thread back to reality mike.



Nice and concise; I like that.



Spot on mike.



I don't mean to be rude but this post is just full of blanket statements that are either misleading or just plain false...


Ya, I kinda just wrote out some info from my exercise physiology book. Elaboration would help the OP.
Could you tell me what I wrote that was false?

JDkeystone
02-01-2011, 09:07 PM
Dunn care if they're essential or not; carbs are delicious and I will continue to eat them. :cool:

access1denied
02-01-2011, 09:10 PM
The brain and skeletal muscle can also metabolize ketones in place of glucose. In fact, in a ketogenic diet, if there is a large amount of MCT's ingested from MCT oil, coconut oil, and goat cheese, it lowers the necessity of gluconeogenesis because ketones are metabolized by cells so similarly to glucose. MCT's are also absorbed very quickly into the blood stream because they don't go through the lymphatic system, like long chain fats, but are rather absorbed right into the hepatic portal.

Also of note is the endocrine effect of carbs versus fat. Glucagon displaces insulin as the dominant hormone produced by the pancreas when fat intake is high enough and carb intake is low enough, which enhances the catabolism of energy from fat stores, and has a myriad of other effects.

juliacheh
02-01-2011, 09:16 PM
Dunn care if they're essential or not; carbs are delicious and I will continue to eat them. :cool:

Exactly:)

Quelly
02-01-2011, 11:17 PM
as a general rule I would advise keeping as many carbs in as possible while still losing bodyfat....makes weight training more effective, which is muscle sparing, carbs are protein sparing, which is of course muscle sparing, and most importantly, carbs have the biggest impact on your metabolic rate.
Yes keto makes you lose fat faster, no doubt, BUT it will also put a BIG halt on fat loss a lot quicker than a diet with carbs....sure you might get to 8% a month faster than the guy on moderate carbs....but when it comes time to get on stage and the guy on keto is still 8% and the guy on moderate carbs is 5%, who do you think will win?
Some people still end up going keto to get shredded even if they start with a decent amount of carbs, but they don't start there, they go there because they have to.
And, if you're going to go keto, make sure to have a regular high carb refeed set up and to very intelligently place the few carbs you do eat in a time period that is in support of your weight training.

synthetic
02-02-2011, 09:32 AM
Carbs contain one highly ignored macro nutrient... fiber. One may bring up the iget diet of only meat, but fiber is quite eimportant for humans.

Unprocessed, also contain vitamins, but we hope to eat an animal that is getting their share of veggies

WonderPug
02-02-2011, 09:35 AM
as a general rule I would advise keeping as many carbs in as possible while still losing bodyfat....makes weight training more effective, which is muscle sparing, carbs are protein sparing, which is of course muscle sparing, and most importantly, carbs have the biggest impact on your metabolic rate.

I think you've hit on the key point, which is to titrate carb intake to personal tolerance. There are clearly many who can eat several hundred grams of CHO per day and shed body fat while in a small caloric deficit.

However, some stall and further reduction of carb intake can be the optimal path for a percentage of said individuals.

MikeK46
02-02-2011, 09:42 AM
Carbs contain one highly ignored macro nutrient... fiber. One may bring up the iget diet of only meat, but fiber is quite eimportant for humans.

Unprocessed, also contain vitamins, but we hope to eat an animal that is getting their share of veggies

FYI....fiber is not contained within carbs. fiber is a type of carb that can not be digested.

P.S. I personally have yet to see anything convinces me that fiber is important for humans. the Arctic Eskimos eat an all-meat diet with zero fiber and (although they are familiar with constipation) have very healthy digestive systems with no cancer of any kind in the entire population.

if anything, fiber is only good if your nutrition is crap to begin with. so it's by no means essential and more like nature's broom for those with piss poor diets of processed junk that suffer from high cholesterol, glucose metabolism issues, etc.

JDkeystone
02-02-2011, 09:55 AM
FYI....fiber is not contained within carbs. fiber is a type of carb that can not be digested.

P.S. I personally have yet to see anything convinces me that fiber is important for humans. the Arctic Eskimos eat an all-meat diet with zero fiber and (although they are familiar with constipation) have very healthy digestive systems with no cancer of any kind in the entire population.

if anything, fiber is only good if your nutrition is crap to begin with. so it's by no means essential and more like nature's broom for those with piss poor diets of processed junk that suffer from high cholesterol, glucose metabolism issues, etc.

eh...granted, I don't have any scientific evidence (and I r too lazy to go looking for it right now lol:p), but I definitely consider fibre important, especially while cutting. constipation, and the feeling of being "backed up" when you're trying to workout while on a deficit sucks (and often masks the feeling of actual fatloss when you have an unborn food baby in your lower gut lol).

I usually don't need quite as much fibre when eating at maintenance, though.

CapitalG8
02-02-2011, 09:58 AM
im on a pretty low carb diet.

actually the only carbs i get are from a cup of quinoa, a spoon full of PB, and a 1/4 cup of almonds i eat pre work out..... and the banana i blend in my post work out shake.


i have been gaining in the gym while slowly shedding fat.



first time i tried to lose bf i completely removed carbs and i dropped WEIGHT like crazy. i looked way to skinny due to the muscle loss along w. weight. i decided to bulk back up and now im cutting in a much smarter way.

MikeK46
02-02-2011, 10:08 AM
eh...granted, I don't have any scientific evidence (and I r too lazy to go looking for it right now lol:p), but I definitely consider fibre important, especially while cutting. constipation, and the feeling of being "backed up" when you're trying to workout while on a deficit sucks (and often masks the feeling of actual fatloss when you have an unborn food baby in your lower gut lol).

I usually don't need quite as much fibre when eating at maintenance, though.

I've personally never logged or paid any attention to how much fiber I'm consuming. I eat a lot of green veggies and whole grains for the digestible macro/micronutrients. These are staples of any proper diet. By default, eating unprocessed and minimally processed foods like these will provide ample fiber.

I can see someone who's going low-carb having issues and maybe having to supplement with something like Psyllium Husk. But in general...why pay any more attention to it than necessary if it will take care of itself?

synthetic
02-02-2011, 10:18 AM
I've personally never logged or paid any attention to how much fiber I'm consuming. I eat a lot of green veggies and whole grains for the digestible macro/micronutrients. These are staples of any proper diet. By default, eating unprocessed and minimally processed foods like these will provide ample fiber.

I can see someone who's going low-carb having issues and maybe having to supplement with something like Psyllium Husk. But in general...why pay any more attention to it than necessary if it will take care of itself?

well this is in the case of extreme no carb diets. Most studies would show fiber as beneficial , but I dont think there is any out there show it is essential.

access1denied
02-02-2011, 10:44 AM
Ketosis does not slow down the metabolism. Eating at a slight caloric deficit for incredibly long periods of time, or a high caloric deficit for shorter intervals, is responsible for the metabolic slow down. Ketogenic diets incite your body to metabolize as if it were starving, but it's not starving. Ketosis actually upregulates many hormones responsible for fat oxidization, glucagon among them, and these hormones are of typically far less volume when in a general state of glycolysis.

Yes, you can lose fat in a general state of glycolysis with moderate to high carbohydrate intake -- I think the mass statistic is 60% of weight lost. However, even when your body is oxidizing fat between work that requires glycolysis (Or ketones, for the educated ketogenic dieter), 30-40% of your cells' metabolic requirements are being met by glucose, and in the event that you no longer are deriving glucose from ingested foods (Such a circumstance would be common on a cut), your body will initiate gluconeogenesis, since fat cannot be turned into glucose.

Glucose is protein sparing... as long as there is glucose to be had from foods.

Keto is superior for cutting while maintaining muscle mass, imo. However, any significant amount of protein synthesis is optimized (Read: Not required) by the presence of insulin, so general glycolysis is recommended for getting bigger/stronger.

Quelly
02-02-2011, 11:12 AM
I think you've hit on the key point, which is to titrate carb intake to personal tolerance. There are clearly many who can eat several hundred grams of CHO per day and shed body fat while in a small caloric deficit.

However, some stall and further reduction of carb intake can be the optimal path for a percentage of said individuals.

Yep, its very common for a competitor to start somewhere in the 200's and then end up touching into the 75-125 range of carbs to get truly shredded.

And if anyone is interested in educating themselves on the effect of carbs on metabolic rate and why going keto without refeeds can slow the metabolism so quickly, read up on leptin

AlwaysTryin
02-02-2011, 02:12 PM
well this is in the case of extreme no carb diets. Most studies would show fiber as beneficial , but I dont think there is any out there show it is essential.

I.e keto?? Because they still consume broccoli etc and fibre...

JDkeystone
02-02-2011, 02:31 PM
I've personally never logged or paid any attention to how much fiber I'm consuming. I eat a lot of green veggies and whole grains for the digestible macro/micronutrients. These are staples of any proper diet. By default, eating unprocessed and minimally processed foods like these will provide ample fiber.

I can see someone who's going low-carb having issues and maybe having to supplement with something like Psyllium Husk. But in general...why pay any more attention to it than necessary if it will take care of itself?

oh, i don't actually keep a specific fibre-count myself (outside of guestimating from the more fibre-rich foods i eat). but like i said before, i do consider a higher fibre intake extremely important when dieting. in addition to the satiety it provides, i simply can't function properly if i'm not staying regular (which i experience semi-regularly when eating below maintenance). so i just make sure to get in some extra fruit and cruciferous veggies (more than usual, i mean), and even take an additional fibre supplement if need be. ah, the joys of cutting heh.

Flyin Ryan
02-02-2011, 02:34 PM
My take on carbs: They can be helpful, but when it comes down to it they are not necessary. Even on a bulk I still keep them on the lower side (I'm pretty carb sensitive... basically I blow up like a balloon) at ~250g. On a cut, I get anywhere from 60-90g per day. But it's just a personal preference... I know there are a bunch of people who bulk with close to 500g of carbs everyday or cut with a good amount of carbs... its all preference.

But in short: Carbs are not necessary.

greekmanman
02-02-2011, 07:01 PM
Ketosis does not slow down the metabolism. Eating at a slight caloric deficit for incredibly long periods of time, or a high caloric deficit for shorter intervals, is responsible for the metabolic slow down. Ketogenic diets incite your body to metabolize as if it were starving, but it's not starving. Ketosis actually upregulates many hormones responsible for fat oxidization, glucagon among them, and these hormones are of typically far less volume when in a general state of glycolysis.

Yes, you can lose fat in a general state of glycolysis with moderate to high carbohydrate intake -- I think the mass statistic is 60% of weight lost. However, even when your body is oxidizing fat between work that requires glycolysis (Or ketones, for the educated ketogenic dieter), 30-40% of your cells' metabolic requirements are being met by glucose, and in the event that you no longer are deriving glucose from ingested foods (Such a circumstance would be common on a cut), your body will initiate gluconeogenesis, since fat cannot be turned into glucose.

Glucose is protein sparing... as long as there is glucose to be had from foods.

Keto is superior for cutting while maintaining muscle mass, imo. However, any significant amount of protein synthesis is optimized (Read: Not required) by the presence of insulin, so general glycolysis is recommended for getting bigger/stronger.

OMFG! Are you in my mind?

Are you a wizard?

That was really quite weird; as I was reading your post it was as if the words were being taken out of my mind and plopped down onto my monitor...surreal.

Great post; EXACTLY what I was thinking and wanted to post.

The upregulation of hormones is something that almost all people tend to not realize. Hormones play a HUGE role in body composition and overall health.

The line about glucose being protein sparing only while glucose can be gotten from foods is quite important.

I also agree with your conclusion that keto is optimal for shedding bodyfat/maintaining muscle mass while a diet with a decent amount of carbohydrates is optimal for building muscle/strength.

I was actually planning on trying a "keto bulk" a while back but realized it would be less than optimal for muscle/strength gains without much circulating insulin throughout the body.

Reps

MikeK46
02-02-2011, 08:04 PM
I was actually planning on trying a "keto bulk" a while back but realized it would be less than optimal for muscle/strength gains without much circulating insulin throughout the body.

Protein is also quite insulinogenic, and even a keto bulk should provide enough insulin to maximize it's anabolic effect. It doesn't take much more insulin above baseline levels to max out it's effect on muscle protein synthesis...and even less to inhibit protein breakdown. I think the biggest downsides to a keto bulk would be more along the lines of diminished glycogen capacity leading to less strength & stamina in the gym and slightly higher levels of cortisol (both of which would compromise gains).

For reference, compared to a refined-carb (which we don't eat, especially in isolation), the insulin response of a protein-rich food was only 50% lower. A mixed meal of complex carbs, protein, and fat would shrink that gap significantly. In other words...a meal of only protein-rich food wouldn't be too far off as far as insulin response. Granted, protein also elicits a greater glucagon response but I don't believe it would negate the above.

Holt, S.H., Miller, J.C., & Petocz, P. (1997). An insulin index of foods: The insulin demand generated by 1000-kJ portions of common foods. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 66, 1264-1276.
http://www.ajcn.org/content/66/5/1264.full.pdf+html

ryan2921
02-02-2011, 08:13 PM
http://maxcondition.com/page.php?152
http://maxcondition.com/page.php?17
http://maxcondition.com/page.php?16

AlwaysTryin
02-02-2011, 08:27 PM
You read the rules update Mike?

greekmanman
02-02-2011, 09:48 PM
Protein is also quite insulinogenic, and even a keto bulk should provide enough insulin to maximize it's anabolic effect. It doesn't take much more insulin above baseline levels to max out it's effect on muscle protein synthesis...and even less to inhibit protein breakdown. I think the biggest downsides to a keto bulk would be more along the lines of diminished glycogen capacity leading to less strength & stamina in the gym and slightly higher levels of cortisol (both of which would compromise gains).

For reference, compared to a refined-carb (which we don't eat, especially in isolation), the insulin response of a protein-rich food was only 50% lower. A mixed meal of complex carbs, protein, and fat would shrink that gap significantly. In other words...a meal of only protein-rich food wouldn't be too far off as far as insulin response. Granted, protein also elicits a greater glucagon response but I don't believe it would negate the above.

Holt, S.H., Miller, J.C., & Petocz, P. (1997). An insulin index of foods: The insulin demand generated by 1000-kJ portions of common foods. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 66, 1264-1276.
http://www.ajcn.org/content/66/5/1264.full.pdf+html

Wow, thanks alot for that post Mike. I wasn't aware that protein was that insulinogenic; I thought it was more along the lines of 25% as insulinogenic as carbohyrdates.

This definitely puts a different perspective on things for me now.

Thanks for posting the study as well; this forum needs more posters like you.

greekmanman
02-02-2011, 09:52 PM
You read the rules update Mike?

Are you referring to the prohibition of direct links?