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View Full Version : TB >>>>>>>>> Peyton



ChillNoWork
12-06-2010, 09:33 PM
Coming from a Jets fan.

Let's all acknowledge if we haven't already

Harrock
12-06-2010, 09:34 PM
Peyton has never had a defense nearly as good as brady has had all of his career. Peyton always has to carry his team on his back.


(not mad, falcons fan)

Advil
12-06-2010, 09:35 PM
we all know this

TAWS6
12-06-2010, 09:35 PM
Looks like 07 tommy out there. Is this real life?

Sick96stang
12-06-2010, 09:46 PM
Guess Jets fans quickly forget how Manning embarrassed you guys last year in the AFCCG.

377 yards, 3 TD, 0 INT, 123.6 QB rating, YPA 11.21

ccj804
12-06-2010, 09:46 PM
Guess Jets fans quickly forget how Manning embarrassed you guys last year in the AFCCG.

377 yards, 3 TD, 0 INT, 123.6 QB rating, YPA 11.21

oh. this guy again.

Joe145
12-06-2010, 09:49 PM
Guess Jets fans quickly forget how Manning embarrassed you guys last year in the AFCCG.

377 yards, 3 TD, 0 INT, 123.6 QB rating, YPA 11.21

Check bradys stats. They have a better team this year too.

wynner64
12-06-2010, 09:54 PM
Ummmm...Peyton Manning has thrown 2 TD passes to two teams in one game two weeks in a row. Has Brady done that? No. Just when you think Peyton is slowing down his play, he pulls another rabbit out of the hat.

ChillNoWork
12-06-2010, 09:55 PM
Ummmm...Peyton Manning has thrown 2 TD passes to two teams in one game two weeks in a row. Has Brady done that? No. Just when you think Peyton is slowing down his play, he pulls another rabbit out of the hat.

lold

nickrut
12-06-2010, 10:03 PM
Brady has a better O line, better running game and a better defense. He also has better receivers, manning has reggie wayne at this point and 3 highschool kids they round up before every game.

Put manning on the patriots and they win the last 5 superbowls.


Edit:

This is coming from a Ravens fan who hates the colts franchise.

Sick96stang
12-06-2010, 10:10 PM
Brady has a better O line, better running game and a better defense. He also has better receivers, manning has reggie wayne at this point and 3 highschool kids they round up before every game.

Put manning on the patriots and they win the last 5 superbowls.

Winnar.

TAWS6
12-06-2010, 10:16 PM
Brady has a better O line, better running game and a better defense. He also has better receivers, manning has reggie wayne at this point and 3 highschool kids they round up before every game.

Put manning on the patriots and they win the last 5 superbowls.


Edit:

This is coming from a Ravens fan who hates the colts franchise.

Where did you get the #5 from? Why not 10?

Future24
12-06-2010, 10:18 PM
Brady has a better O line, better running game and a better defense. He also has better receivers, manning has reggie wayne at this point and 3 highschool kids they round up before every game.

Put manning on the patriots and they win the last 5 superbowls.


Edit:

This is coming from a Ravens fan who hates the colts franchise.

Manning's not a leader. Brady is.













Dis sho gon be good. popcorn.jpg

cor030
12-06-2010, 10:18 PM
colts defense is terrible they held a historically great Saints offense to 24 points(they averaged 31pts per game throughout the season.) unfortunately at the end of the game the colts defense threw an interception that was returned for a touchdown giving the Saints a win :(

no Peyton hate, but come on brahs..

jdo1
12-06-2010, 10:19 PM
Brady has a better O line, better running game and a better defense. He also has better receivers, manning has reggie wayne at this point and 3 highschool kids they round up before every game.

Put manning on the patriots and they win the last 5 superbowls.


Edit:

This is coming from a Ravens fan who hates the colts franchise.

would you say this before 2007?

WTFasker
12-06-2010, 10:20 PM
TB is better this year.


Manning is better career wise. Lets be reality, manning isn't only the QB, but also the offensive coordinator. Brady has been in a position to win his whole career, Manning carries the team on his back year after year.

NewYorkMets
12-06-2010, 10:20 PM
colts defense is terrible they held a historically great Saints offense to 24 points(they averaged 31pts per game throughout the season.) unfortunately at the end of the game the colts defense threw an interception that was returned for a touchdown giving the Saints a win :(

no Peyton hate, but come on brahs..

http://i48.tinypic.com/vgrjpu.jpg

WTFasker
12-06-2010, 10:23 PM
Manning's not a leader. Brady is.






Dis sho gon be good. popcorn.jpg




Are you aware that Manning is the offensive coordinator and coach?

Sick96stang
12-06-2010, 10:24 PM
TB is better this year.


Manning is better career wise. Lets be reality, manning isn't only the QB, but also the offensive coordinator. Brady has been in a position to win his whole career, Manning carries the team on his back year after year.

Repped

TAWS6
12-06-2010, 10:25 PM
Are you aware that Manning is the offensive coordinator and coach?

Really I thought the coach was black?

nickrut
12-06-2010, 10:28 PM
Manning's not a leader. Brady is.



Dis sho gon be good. popcorn.jpg

Disagree. Bill is the leader of that team, Brady is just his poster boy QB. Manning leads the team because he calls the play and everyone on the team knows they'd suck ******* without him.




Where did you get the #5 from? Why not 10?

Valid point.



would you say this before 2007?

The patriots win superbowls because they are a complete team. You put the best QB in the game on their complete team and its just disaster for everyone else.

Sick96stang
12-06-2010, 10:29 PM
Disagree. Bill is the leader of that team, Brady is just his poster boy QB. Manning leads the team because he calls the play and everyone on the team knows they'd suck ******* without him.


True that take Manning away from the Colts and I doubt they win 11 games like the Pats did when they took Brady away even if it was Cassel.

TAWS6
12-06-2010, 10:30 PM
Disagree. Bill is the leader of that team, Brady is just his poster boy QB. Manning leads the team because he calls the play and everyone on the team knows they'd suck ******* without him..


Wonder how billy and peyton would get along.

Sick96stang
12-06-2010, 10:30 PM
Wonder how billy and peyton would get along.

Defensive genius coach + offensive genius QB = mind blown.

jdo1
12-06-2010, 10:35 PM
True that take Manning away from the Colts and I doubt they win 11 games like the Pats did when they took Brady away even if it was Cassel.

the pats were 18-1 the year before and then they missed the playoffs the year after....
and Cassel is playing better than Manning atm

kethnaab
12-06-2010, 10:35 PM
Terry Bradshaw is definitely >>>> than Peyton

OP is a jeenyus

Sick96stang
12-06-2010, 10:36 PM
the pats were 18-1 the year before and then they missed the playoffs the year after....
and Cassel is playing better than Manning atm

You act as if this somehow disproves my statement...

ryanleaf16
12-06-2010, 10:36 PM
Peyton has never had a defense nearly as good as brady has had all of his career. Peyton always has to carry his team on his back.


(not mad, falcons fan)

Correct me if I am wrong but...
aren't the Pats 10-2?
Isn't their Defense ranked 32 out of 32?
Hasn't TB not thrown a pick since October?

Go ahead correct anything wrong!

TAWS6
12-06-2010, 10:37 PM
Correct me if I am wrong but...
aren't the Pats 10-2?
Isn't their Defense ranked 32 out of 32?
Hasn't TB not thrown a pick since October?

Go ahead correct anything wrong!

Ranked 32 out of 32 in what?

ryanleaf16
12-06-2010, 10:39 PM
Ranked 32 out of 32 in what?

OUt of the National Football League.

kethnaab
12-06-2010, 10:40 PM
Ranked 32 out of 32 in what?

i believe they had the 32nd ranked pass defense, in yardage allowed leading up to today's game

Only problem with New England doing so well is that now all of the non-NFL trolls come out of the woodwork and we gotta put up with them here until New England loses again

TAWS6
12-06-2010, 10:42 PM
i believe they had the 32nd ranked pass defense, in yardage allowed leading up to today's game

Only problem with New England doing so well is that now all of the non-NFL trolls come out of the woodwork and we gotta put up with them here until New England loses again

It wouldnt shock me if they were 30 something in pass defense. Good thing they make big plays when it matters.

Sick96stang
12-06-2010, 10:42 PM
Correct me if I am wrong but...
aren't the Pats 10-2?
Isn't their Defense ranked 32 out of 32?
Hasn't TB not thrown a pick since October?

Go ahead correct anything wrong!

18th in PPG on defense before this game.

kethnaab
12-06-2010, 10:45 PM
18th in PPG on defense before this game.

New England has given up more points on defense than Indy has

Sick96stang
12-06-2010, 10:45 PM
New England has given up more points on defense than Indy has

That's because Indy's defense is rarely on the field since all of Manning's INT's are pick 6's.

And actually they're tied at 24.2 each though I think that will change in favor of the Patriots after this weekend.

kethnaab
12-06-2010, 10:46 PM
That's because Indy's defense is rarely on the field since all of Manning's INT's are pick 6's.


yeah, Manning has thrown more pick-6's in the last 3 games than Brady has thrown interceptions all season

bertstare

Sick96stang
12-06-2010, 10:49 PM
yeah, Manning has thrown more pick-6's in the last 3 games than Brady has thrown interceptions all season

bertstare

I have been meaning to a pick a bone with you. You said Brady's situation right now is no worse than Mannings. I clearly pointed out Manning has had more injures to WR's and RB's, Colts running game has been much worse than the Patriots, and I omitted the fact that Brady's o-line is playing about a billion times better than the Colts this year. So I'm really interested in your logic of how Brady's situation this year is equal to that of Manning's.

kethnaab
12-06-2010, 11:18 PM
I have been meaning to a pick a bone with you. You said Brady's situation right now is no worse than Mannings. I clearly pointed out Manning has had more injures to WR's and RB's, Colts running game has been much worse than the Patriots, and I omitted the fact that Brady's o-line is playing about a billion times better than the Colts this year. So I'm really interested in your logic of how Brady's situation this year is equal to that of Manning's.

When Brady threw 50 TDs, it was because of Randy Moss. Randy Moss leaves, and you dismiss it.

Peyton's line is "terrible" and "injured" yet Brady's been sacked more often than Peyton has, but his line is playing much better.

You complain about the weapons Peyton has, yet he has the exact same #1 WR that he's had for years and he has a #2 that is at least as good as any of Brady's present #2s. Is Deion Branch a stud? He damn sure is when Brady throws the ball to him. Oh no, Peypey is missing Austin Collie?

SERIOUSLY?

Brady is making stars out of a pair of rookie TEs. This is where you say "well obviously they are really good". Well, perhaps they are good because of the guy chucking them the ball...kinda like Deion Branch. Remind me of who Wes Welker was before he became Brady's primary outlet guy?

Brady produces as he needs to produce. It doesn't really matter who it is he's throwing to, all that matters is how often he needs to throw the ball. He puts the ball where it needs to be, in his own receiver's hands.

Lost in all of the hooplah is a simple fact. Brady's career TD:INT ratio is substantially better than anybody else's. For a point of comparison, Peyton Manning has thrown 418 TDs, 215 picks including the postseason. If Brady had thrown as many picks as Manning, he'd have over 50 more TDs than Manning.

Manning isn't in "such a horrible situation" now, not by any stretch of the imagination. He's now on equal ground with most of the rest of the NFL. Indy's incessant use of their 1st rounders for offensive skill players helped pad Peypey's stats, along with their nice comfy Dome.

Now Peypey is forced to play with the types of skill players that the rest of the NFL is stuck with. He doesn't have 3 first round receiving targets to throw to, and only 1 of his first round RBs are healthy.

oh, poor Peypey, no running game, Donald Brown sucks. I'm sure Ben Jarvis Green Ellis is substantially better. oh, poor Peypey, he has to throw to Tamme....

send Tamme to New England and i bet he becomes a star. Why? Because Brady, unlike Manning, TRULY can produce with anybody you throw out there.

JtotheIzzo
12-06-2010, 11:21 PM
When Brady threw 50 TDs, it was because of Randy Moss. Randy Moss leaves, and you dismiss it.

Peyton's line is "terrible" and "injured" yet Brady's been sacked more often than Peyton has, but his line is playing much better.

You complain about the weapons Peyton has, yet he has the exact same #1 WR that he's had for years and he has a #2 that is at least as good as any of Brady's present #2s. Is Deion Branch a stud? He damn sure is when Brady throws the ball to him. Oh no, Peypey is missing Austin Collie?

SERIOUSLY?

Brady is making stars out of a pair of rookie TEs. This is where you say "well obviously they are really good". Well, perhaps they are good because of the guy chucking them the ball...kinda like Deion Branch. Remind me of who Wes Welker was before he became Brady's primary outlet guy?

Brady produces as he needs to produce. It doesn't really matter who it is he's throwing to, all that matters is how often he needs to throw the ball. He puts the ball where it needs to be, in his own receiver's hands.

Lost in all of the hooplah is a simple fact. Brady's career TD:INT ratio is substantially better than anybody else's. For a point of comparison, Peyton Manning has thrown 418 TDs, 215 picks including the postseason. If Brady had thrown as many picks as Manning, he'd have over 50 more TDs than Manning.

Manning isn't in "such a horrible situation" now, not by any stretch of the imagination. He's now on equal ground with most of the rest of the NFL. Indy's incessant use of their 1st rounders for offensive skill players helped pad Peypey's stats, along with their nice comfy Dome.

Now Peypey is forced to play with the types of skill players that the rest of the NFL is stuck with. He doesn't have 3 first round receiving targets to throw to, and only 1 of his first round RBs are healthy.

oh, poor Peypey, no running game, Donald Brown sucks. I'm sure Ben Jarvis Green Ellis is substantially better. oh, poor Peypey, he has to throw to Tamme....

send Tamme to New England and i bet he becomes a star. Why? Because Brady, unlike Manning, TRULY can produce with anybody you throw out there.


Good post man! I have never heard your opinion on the matter though; between Brady and Manning who do you feel is the better quarterback?

kethnaab
12-06-2010, 11:33 PM
Good post man! I have never heard your opinion on the matter though; between Brady and Manning who do you feel is the better quarterback?

Manning is the greatest stat accumulating QB during the regular season in NFL history

However, I also think he's grossly overrated.

If I had to chose, I'd take Brady over Manning, easily. I won't need to keep Brady fed with a steady diet of top offensive skill talent. I can draft players at positions of TEAM need, rather than players at positions of QB need.

TAWS6
12-06-2010, 11:38 PM
Manning is the greatest stat accumulating QB during the regular season in NFL history

However, I also think he's grossly overrated.

If I had to chose, I'd take Brady over Manning, easily. I won't need to keep Brady fed with a steady diet of top offensive skill talent. I can draft players at positions of TEAM need, rather than players at positions of QB need.

It really is amazing how good Brady makes his recievers look. Bunch of 5 foot 7 white guys, branch, rookie t-ends. This season is a shocker to me.

lovebbing
12-06-2010, 11:45 PM
Peyton has never had a defense nearly as good as brady has had all of his career. Peyton always has to carry his team on his back.


(not mad, falcons fan)

brady has a terrible defense this year....

manning has always still had a good defense

gawd when will the ignorant comments stop.

NavyRoll
12-07-2010, 12:01 AM
Do not worry, my good Manning fans. As long as Madden exists, 99 Awareness rating will always belong to Peyton Manning.

Sick96stang
12-07-2010, 12:04 AM
When Brady threw 50 TDs, it was because of Randy Moss. Randy Moss leaves, and you dismiss it.

Peyton's line is "terrible" and "injured" yet Brady's been sacked more often than Peyton has, but his line is playing much better.

You complain about the weapons Peyton has, yet he has the exact same #1 WR that he's had for years and he has a #2 that is at least as good as any of Brady's present #2s. Is Deion Branch a stud? He damn sure is when Brady throws the ball to him. Oh no, Peypey is missing Austin Collie?

SERIOUSLY?

Brady is making stars out of a pair of rookie TEs. This is where you say "well obviously they are really good". Well, perhaps they are good because of the guy chucking them the ball...kinda like Deion Branch. Remind me of who Wes Welker was before he became Brady's primary outlet guy?

Brady produces as he needs to produce. It doesn't really matter who it is he's throwing to, all that matters is how often he needs to throw the ball. He puts the ball where it needs to be, in his own receiver's hands.

Lost in all of the hooplah is a simple fact. Brady's career TD:INT ratio is substantially better than anybody else's. For a point of comparison, Peyton Manning has thrown 418 TDs, 215 picks including the postseason. If Brady had thrown as many picks as Manning, he'd have over 50 more TDs than Manning.

Manning isn't in "such a horrible situation" now, not by any stretch of the imagination. He's now on equal ground with most of the rest of the NFL. Indy's incessant use of their 1st rounders for offensive skill players helped pad Peypey's stats, along with their nice comfy Dome.

Now Peypey is forced to play with the types of skill players that the rest of the NFL is stuck with. He doesn't have 3 first round receiving targets to throw to, and only 1 of his first round RBs are healthy.

oh, poor Peypey, no running game, Donald Brown sucks. I'm sure Ben Jarvis Green Ellis is substantially better. oh, poor Peypey, he has to throw to Tamme....

send Tamme to New England and i bet he becomes a star. Why? Because Brady, unlike Manning, TRULY can produce with anybody you throw out there.

I'm not sure exactly what I'm dismissing, want to let me in on that?

Look at the Chargers game, look at the Jets game. Commentators were pointing out how Peyton has very little time to throw exact opposite in the Pats/Jets games commentators were pointing out how Brady has a lot of time to throw. You can't just look at sacks and think that is the be all end all of offensive line play. Anybody who's watched Pats and Colts game this year know the Pats o-line is playing far superior to that of the Colts.

Garcon/Collie is equal to Wes Welker............................................ ... Also you keep bringing up Branch like I haven't already said Brady pretty much makes him who he is. I clearly already said that in multiple other threads. This was quite evident when he went to Seattle and didn't do crap then came back to the Patriots and looks like a superstar again. I'm still just dumbfounded you said Collie or Garcon is equal to Welker. Also like I pointed out in another thread lets not kid ourselves and call Collie/Garcon the second biggest receiving option on the Colts when clearly that is Clark. So back in reality this is really the way the Colts depth chart plays out at receivers:

#1 Wayne
#2 Clark
#3 Collie/Garcon
#4 Collie/Garcon
#5 Gonzalez
#6 White

Remind me again how many passes has Brady thrown to his 6th receiving option this year?

Weren't Gruden and Jaworski just singing the praises of Gronkowski this game also? I can answer that question for you, yes they were and yea Hernandez you're right Brady is totally making him. That 20-30 YAC run he had today was all Brady's doing. Once again I've said Brady makes guys better than what they appear in multiple threads so again I'm not sure why you keep bringing that up. It's even more puzzling when that's not even part of what I said. I said Manning has more injures to receivers. Beat around the bush all you want and avoid it all you want but in the end it's true.

And where would that put each on the grand scheme of things?

You know that's great and all that they drafted first round running backs but last time I checked not every first round running back pans out to be great and not many running backs are gonna be great with an o-line that is terrible at run blocking and either way this doesn't mean anything because in the end the Colts running game still sucks compared to the Patriots hence giving Manning a disadvantage that you for some reason just vehemently do not want to admit to.

Remind me again how did Stokley do after he left Peypey? He sure went on to just kill it with the Broncos... oh wait.

So lets take a full loop back around to my original question of how Manning is in an equal situation to Brady. Even if you wanted to call the receiver talent equal at this point (which is a big stretch), Manning's running game is still inferior to that of Brady and the Pats and his o-line this year is still playing inferior to that of Brady's.

lovebbing
12-07-2010, 12:23 AM
I have been meaning to a pick a bone with you. You said Brady's situation right now is no worse than Mannings. I clearly pointed out Manning has had more injures to WR's and RB's, Colts running game has been much worse than the Patriots, and I omitted the fact that Brady's o-line is playing about a billion times better than the Colts this year. So I'm really interested in your logic of how Brady's situation this year is equal to that of Manning's.

tom brady got sacked three times today and still didnt throw and INT and played the best D in the league. peyton manning didnt get sacked at all against the cowboys and threw 4. Then Peyton only got sacked 1 time against san diego and also threw 4 int at home.

stupid arguement is stupid

wynner64
12-07-2010, 12:31 AM
send Tamme to New England and i bet he becomes a star. Why? Because Belichick, unlike Manning, TRULY can produce with anybody you throw out there.

Fixed it for you.

Look, I'm not taking anything away from Brady whatsoever. The 2007 season shut people up, and it was sad that he had to throw 50 TD's to finally give people the nod to label him as elite, when he should have been. I still remember people comparing him to Marc FREAKING BULGER in 2006, which should NEVER EVER happen, and is a crime against humanity. Let's take a time warp back to 2005. Rodney Harrison is hurt. Tedy Bruschi suffers a stroke. Ty Law is hurt, then released. Matt Light, the pro bowl left tackle goes down. Then the center goes down, leaving the starting offensive line looking like this: Rookie Logan Mankins, Steve Neal, Backup Center, Russ Hochstein, Tom Ashworth. Decent, but it only looks good with Mankins, who had not yet evolved into a stud. Finally, to put the icing on the cake, their run game is led by an aging running back that's lost his wheels and two full backs. Their receivers? Only good one was Deion Branch. Then you had journeyman David Givens, cornerback Troy Brown, and.....*drum roll* Tim Dwight!!!!

Despite all this, Pats make the playoffs at 10-6 with an offense ranked in the top 10. Brady has his best season pre-2007 with 26 TD's and a QB rating of 92.3. THAT is where you have to give credit where credit is due.

HOWEVER...let's go back in time to 2008. What can possibly one-up this? Simple, Brady getting injured. How do the Pats respond? Well, they don't make the playoffs, only because the Miami Dolphins had an amazing season in a very stacked division, but they still record an 11-5 record. How do they do it? With a star QB that hadn't started a game since high school, yet they still record a top 10 offense.

The pattern here is Bill Belichick. When he's in the equation, they win. Get him his personnel and let him do his thing. Once again, not taking anything away from Brady whatsoever, but if this is the argument you're going to make against him...this should be it right here. If you're looking for a reason to defend him, use the 2005 and 2007 seasons.


The reason I give Peyton the edge is that he single handedly runs the Colts. Doesn't matter who's coaching, who's at running back, who's at wide receiver, tight end, etc, Colts make the playoffs, and they have been since Peyton's second season. They were in the playoffs an entire DECADE, despite going through 3 coaching changes. Dungy retires? Hey, no problem, we're still going to the Super Bowl. The only problem with Peyton is that he tries to do too much. He's human. He wins games by himself, and he's one of the few QB's I've seen that flat out destroys teams while they have the higher time of possession. People make excuses for the offensive line in Manning's case, this year they do have one. Proof? How bad is your line that you get sacked while handing off the ball?

Moral of the story? Super star QB goes down in Belichick's offense, team goes 11-5. Half the team gets hurt? No problem, 10-6. If Manning were to go down? Colts would win 3 games. Replacing coaches or skill players? Not a problem, still playoff bound.

Sick96stang
12-07-2010, 12:35 AM
tom brady got sacked three times today and still didnt throw and INT and played the best D in the league. peyton manning didnt get sacked at all against the cowboys and threw 4. Then Peyton only got sacked 1 time against san diego and also threw 4 int at home.

stupid arguement is stupid

Weird wonder why the commentators then were pointing out how much time Brady had to throw the ball yet in the Chargers game they were pointing out how little time Manning had to throw the ball. Just goes to show like I said in the last post sacks aren't everything in determining how well an offensive line is playing.

TAWS6
12-07-2010, 01:33 AM
Weird wonder why the commentators then were pointing out how much time Brady had to throw the ball yet in the Chargers game they were pointing out how little time Manning had to throw the ball. Just goes to show like I said in the last post sacks aren't everything in determining how well an offensive line is playing.

Funny thing is that now the commentators are going to be all about Brady, where as last year they never got off Peytons sack. Thats why when I debate the whole Brady vs Manning topic with you I dont always take the "experts" serious all the time. They all go back and forth. 06 Manning, 07 Brady, 08 Manning (lol), 09 Manning, 10 Brady.

JTrain306
12-07-2010, 01:56 AM
Funny how Brady > Manning and it's blatantly obvious

UberAlles
12-07-2010, 02:09 AM
Fixed it for you.

Look, I'm not taking anything away from Brady whatsoever. The 2007 season shut people up, and it was sad that he had to throw 50 TD's to finally give people the nod to label him as elite, when he should have been. I still remember people comparing him to Marc FREAKING BULGER in 2006, which should NEVER EVER happen, and is a crime against humanity. Let's take a time warp back to 2005. Rodney Harrison is hurt. Tedy Bruschi suffers a stroke. Ty Law is hurt, then released. Matt Light, the pro bowl left tackle goes down. Then the center goes down, leaving the starting offensive line looking like this: Rookie Logan Mankins, Steve Neal, Backup Center, Russ Hochstein, Tom Ashworth. Decent, but it only looks good with Mankins, who had not yet evolved into a stud. Finally, to put the icing on the cake, their run game is led by an aging running back that's lost his wheels and two full backs. Their receivers? Only good one was Deion Branch. Then you had journeyman David Givens, cornerback Troy Brown, and.....*drum roll* Tim Dwight!!!!

Despite all this, Pats make the playoffs at 10-6 with an offense ranked in the top 10. Brady has his best season pre-2007 with 26 TD's and a QB rating of 92.3. THAT is where you have to give credit where credit is due.

HOWEVER...let's go back in time to 2008. What can possibly one-up this? Simple, Brady getting injured. How do the Pats respond? Well, they don't make the playoffs, only because the Miami Dolphins had an amazing season in a very stacked division, but they still record an 11-5 record. How do they do it? With a star QB that hadn't started a game since high school, yet they still record a top 10 offense.

The pattern here is Bill Belichick. When he's in the equation, they win. Get him his personnel and let him do his thing. Once again, not taking anything away from Brady whatsoever, but if this is the argument you're going to make against him...this should be it right here. If you're looking for a reason to defend him, use the 2005 and 2007 seasons.


The reason I give Peyton the edge is that he single handedly runs the Colts. Doesn't matter who's coaching, who's at running back, who's at wide receiver, tight end, etc, Colts make the playoffs, and they have been since Peyton's second season. They were in the playoffs an entire DECADE, despite going through 3 coaching changes. Dungy retires? Hey, no problem, we're still going to the Super Bowl. The only problem with Peyton is that he tries to do too much. He's human. He wins games by himself, and he's one of the few QB's I've seen that flat out destroys teams while they have the higher time of possession. People make excuses for the offensive line in Manning's case, this year they do have one. Proof? How bad is your line that you get sacked while handing off the ball?

Moral of the story? Super star QB goes down in Belichick's offense, team goes 11-5. Half the team gets hurt? No problem, 10-6. If Manning were to go down? Colts would win 3 games. Replacing coaches or skill players? Not a problem, still playoff bound.

matt cassel 2010 stats:
23 tds 4 ints 98.4 qb rating

rsnnh12
12-07-2010, 02:12 AM
Fixed it for you.

Look, I'm not taking anything away from Brady whatsoever. The 2007 season shut people up, and it was sad that he had to throw 50 TD's to finally give people the nod to label him as elite, when he should have been. I still remember people comparing him to Marc FREAKING BULGER in 2006, which should NEVER EVER happen, and is a crime against humanity. Let's take a time warp back to 2005. Rodney Harrison is hurt. Tedy Bruschi suffers a stroke. Ty Law is hurt, then released. Matt Light, the pro bowl left tackle goes down. Then the center goes down, leaving the starting offensive line looking like this: Rookie Logan Mankins, Steve Neal, Backup Center, Russ Hochstein, Tom Ashworth. Decent, but it only looks good with Mankins, who had not yet evolved into a stud. Finally, to put the icing on the cake, their run game is led by an aging running back that's lost his wheels and two full backs. Their receivers? Only good one was Deion Branch. Then you had journeyman David Givens, cornerback Troy Brown, and.....*drum roll* Tim Dwight!!!!

Despite all this, Pats make the playoffs at 10-6 with an offense ranked in the top 10. Brady has his best season pre-2007 with 26 TD's and a QB rating of 92.3. THAT is where you have to give credit where credit is due.

HOWEVER...let's go back in time to 2008. What can possibly one-up this? Simple, Brady getting injured. How do the Pats respond? Well, they don't make the playoffs, only because the Miami Dolphins had an amazing season in a very stacked division, but they still record an 11-5 record. How do they do it? With a star QB that hadn't started a game since high school, yet they still record a top 10 offense.

The pattern here is Bill Belichick. When he's in the equation, they win. Get him his personnel and let him do his thing. Once again, not taking anything away from Brady whatsoever, but if this is the argument you're going to make against him...this should be it right here. If you're looking for a reason to defend him, use the 2005 and 2007 seasons.


The reason I give Peyton the edge is that he single handedly runs the Colts. Doesn't matter who's coaching, who's at running back, who's at wide receiver, tight end, etc, Colts make the playoffs, and they have been since Peyton's second season. They were in the playoffs an entire DECADE, despite going through 3 coaching changes. Dungy retires? Hey, no problem, we're still going to the Super Bowl. The only problem with Peyton is that he tries to do too much. He's human. He wins games by himself, and he's one of the few QB's I've seen that flat out destroys teams while they have the higher time of possession. People make excuses for the offensive line in Manning's case, this year they do have one. Proof? How bad is your line that you get sacked while handing off the ball?

Moral of the story? Super star QB goes down in Belichick's offense, team goes 11-5. Half the team gets hurt? No problem, 10-6. If Manning were to go down? Colts would win 3 games. Replacing coaches or skill players? Not a problem, still playoff bound.

Gotta disagree with you. Pats in 07 went 16-0, and put up the greatest offensive season ever. Without Brady (pretty much everyone else the same though) they go 11-5. Look at Cassel's numbers... not even close to Bradys.

Impossible to say how the Colts would do without Manning. Who knows, maybe they would do better? Not saying they would, of course, but there's no evidence to support either side. And the Colts will be INCREDIBLY lucky to make the playoffs this year.

Obviously Belichick is a great coach, but that doesn't take away from Brady at all. Brady>Manning. Now that Manning is playing with a fairly average offensive team around him, we are seeing just how good he really is. How much of his statistical success was due to a great line and amazing receivers?

Ejjw18
12-07-2010, 02:31 AM
When Brady threw 50 TDs, it was because of Randy Moss. Randy Moss leaves, and you dismiss it.

Peyton's line is "terrible" and "injured" yet Brady's been sacked more often than Peyton has, but his line is playing much better.

You complain about the weapons Peyton has, yet he has the exact same #1 WR that he's had for years and he has a #2 that is at least as good as any of Brady's present #2s. Is Deion Branch a stud? He damn sure is when Brady throws the ball to him. Oh no, Peypey is missing Austin Collie?

SERIOUSLY?

Brady is making stars out of a pair of rookie TEs. This is where you say "well obviously they are really good". Well, perhaps they are good because of the guy chucking them the ball...kinda like Deion Branch. Remind me of who Wes Welker was before he became Brady's primary outlet guy?

Brady produces as he needs to produce. It doesn't really matter who it is he's throwing to, all that matters is how often he needs to throw the ball. He puts the ball where it needs to be, in his own receiver's hands.

Lost in all of the hooplah is a simple fact. Brady's career TD:INT ratio is substantially better than anybody else's. For a point of comparison, Peyton Manning has thrown 418 TDs, 215 picks including the postseason. If Brady had thrown as many picks as Manning, he'd have over 50 more TDs than Manning.

Manning isn't in "such a horrible situation" now, not by any stretch of the imagination. He's now on equal ground with most of the rest of the NFL. Indy's incessant use of their 1st rounders for offensive skill players helped pad Peypey's stats, along with their nice comfy Dome.

Now Peypey is forced to play with the types of skill players that the rest of the NFL is stuck with. He doesn't have 3 first round receiving targets to throw to, and only 1 of his first round RBs are healthy.

oh, poor Peypey, no running game, Donald Brown sucks. I'm sure Ben Jarvis Green Ellis is substantially better. oh, poor Peypey, he has to throw to Tamme....

send Tamme to New England and i bet he becomes a star. Why? Because Brady, unlike Manning, TRULY can produce with anybody you throw out there.

5 star ****ing post brah!!!


random piece of info, Aaron Hernandez just turned 21 last month, this blows my mind.

wynner64
12-07-2010, 03:09 AM
matt cassel 2010 stats:
23 tds 4 ints 98.4 qb rating

I never said Cassel was a terrible QB anywhere in that sentence. He's tearing it up this year. But would you admit that someone that hasn't started a game in like 5 years leading his team to an 11-5 record is pretty surprising? I'm not surprised at his success now, but I was surprised at his success in 08'.



Gotta disagree with you. Pats in 07 went 16-0, and put up the greatest offensive season ever. Without Brady (pretty much everyone else the same though) they go 11-5. Look at Cassel's numbers... not even close to Bradys.

Impossible to say how the Colts would do without Manning. Who knows, maybe they would do better? Not saying they would, of course, but there's no evidence to support either side. And the Colts will be INCREDIBLY lucky to make the playoffs this year.

Obviously Belichick is a great coach, but that doesn't take away from Brady at all. Brady>Manning. Now that Manning is playing with a fairly average offensive team around him, we are seeing just how good he really is. How much of his statistical success was due to a great line and amazing receivers?

Knew I was going to run into this side of the debate regardless of how I worded the first post, because it's one that makes the most sense. The reason why I went and brought up that argument was due to my point of decline that most teams face after success. I'm bored and did a little research, and here's what I came up with courtesy of Wiki history, which made this extremely easy to find:


Bold= went to super bowl
* = did not make playoffs

Rams in 10 years (since 1999): 13-3, 10-6, 14-2, 7-9,* 12-4, 8-8, 6-10*, 8-8*, 3-13*, 2-14*, 1-15*


Packers in 10 years (since 1996): 13-3, 13-3, 11-5, 8-8*, 9-7*, 12-4, 11-5, 10-6, 8-8*, 4-12*


Broncos in 10 years (since 1997): 13-3, 14-2, 11-5, 8-8*, 9-7*, 10-6, 10-6, 13-3, 9-7*, 7-9*

Bills in 10 years (since 1990): 13-3, 13-3, 11-5, 12-4, 7-9*, 10-6, 10-6, 6-10*, 10-6, 11-5

The reason I mentioned the above teams is that they had a constant: For the most part of their success, they had a QB or coach stick with the team during this timeline. Packers had Favre, Rams had Martz (well...somewhat...), Broncos had Shanahan, Bills had Marv Levy/Jim Kelly. As you can see, there is a period of recession. Now let's look at the Colts:

Colts in 10 years (since 1999): 13-3, 10-6, 6-10*, 10-6, 12-4, 12-4, 14-2, 12-4, 13-3, 12-4, 14-2

For the most part, Dungy was a constant. However, all 10 of the years, Manning was behind the helm.


Patriots in 10 years (since 2000, first year of BB): 5-11*, 11-5, 9-7, 14-2, 14-2, 10-6, 12-4, 16-0, 11-5*, 10-6

Brady comes in right at the bolded part when they won their first Super Bowl. BB didn't have his success until Brady came in.

Now I really don't know where I stand on the argument...but these are interesting numbers. Definitely impressive of how both teams have been able to put together awesome seasons and not hit a drop-off like the others mentioned above.

Vayne
12-07-2010, 05:56 AM
It's not very often that Peyton Manning haters get to talk.

kethnaab
12-07-2010, 05:59 AM
So lets take a full loop back around to my original question of how Manning is in an equal situation to Brady. Even if you wanted to call the receiver talent equal at this point (which is a big stretch), Manning's running game is still inferior to that of Brady and the Pats and his o-line this year is still playing inferior to that of Brady's.

ok, let's say that is true.

so what? Manning, this season, has an inferior run game and his OL isn't playing quite as well. So what?

to answer a few other questions, Brandon Tate would be his 6th option, unless you could Danny Woodhead as an option, since he has almost as many receptions as Gronkowski. Woodhead takes the place of Kevin Faulk, who has been out all season.

Never said Stokely was a world-beater, however, people overemphasize what Manning did for Stokley. He was with Indy for 4 seasons. He never cracked 550 yards aside from 2004, just like Peyton has never cracked 34 TD passes other than 2004.

and why so dismissive of Austin Collie and so big on Wes Welker? When Welker was with Miami, he did....what exactly? In the games that Welker was gipmy last season, who replaced him? Julian Edelman. And how well did Julian Edelman do?

8 receptions, 98 yards
10 receptions, 103 yards

Anyway, this discussion is old and continually loops back on itself

1) When Manning does well it's because he's the best
2) When Manning does poorly it's because of his team
3) When Brady does well it's because of the system/Belichick/the alignment of the stars/whomever he isn't playing with

The bottom line, there is NOTHING Manning has done that Brady hasn't done better, except throw games away.

Ejjw18
12-07-2010, 06:02 AM
ok, let's say that is true.

so what? Manning, this season, has an inferior run game and his OL isn't playing quite as well. So what?

to answer a few other questions, Brandon Tate would be his 6th option, unless you could Danny Woodhead as an option, since he has almost as many receptions as Gronkowski. Woodhead takes the place of Kevin Faulk, who has been out all season.

Never said Stokely was a world-beater, however, people overemphasize what Manning did for Stokley. He was with Indy for 4 seasons. He never cracked 550 yards aside from 2004, just like Peyton has never cracked 34 TD passes other than 2004.

and why so dismissive of Austin Collie and so big on Wes Welker? When Welker was with Miami, he did....what exactly? In the games that Welker was gipmy last season, who replaced him? Julian Edelman. And how well did Julian Edelman do?

8 receptions, 98 yards
10 receptions, 103 yards

Anyway, this discussion is old and continually loops back on itself

1) When Manning does well it's because he's the best
2) When Manning does poorly it's because of his team
3) When Brady does well it's because of the system/Belichick/the alignment of the stars/whomever he isn't playing with

The bottom line, there is NOTHING Manning has done that Brady hasn't done better, except throw games away.

manclapping.gif

in b4 Manning coaches and Brady doesn't.

Sick96stang
12-07-2010, 09:37 AM
ok, let's say that is true.

so what? Manning, this season, has an inferior run game and his OL isn't playing quite as well. So what?

to answer a few other questions, Brandon Tate would be his 6th option, unless you could Danny Woodhead as an option, since he has almost as many receptions as Gronkowski. Woodhead takes the place of Kevin Faulk, who has been out all season.

Never said Stokely was a world-beater, however, people overemphasize what Manning did for Stokley. He was with Indy for 4 seasons. He never cracked 550 yards aside from 2004, just like Peyton has never cracked 34 TD passes other than 2004.

and why so dismissive of Austin Collie and so big on Wes Welker? When Welker was with Miami, he did....what exactly? In the games that Welker was gipmy last season, who replaced him? Julian Edelman. And how well did Julian Edelman do?

8 receptions, 98 yards
10 receptions, 103 yards

Anyway, this discussion is old and continually loops back on itself

1) When Manning does well it's because he's the best
2) When Manning does poorly it's because of his team
3) When Brady does well it's because of the system/Belichick/the alignment of the stars/whomever he isn't playing with

The bottom line, there is NOTHING Manning has done that Brady hasn't done better, except throw games away.

Well my point this whole time to been to prove that Manning's situation this year is worse than Brady's which you for some reason do not agree with.

How many yards, TD's, and receptions does Tate have compared to White?

Yes but you did say Manning doesn't make receivers, ok so why did Stokley look like a superstar in 2004 then and then hasn't done anything since then? Manning's never topped 34 again, Brady's never even cracked 30 again.

In 3 years Welker started a whole 3 games with Miami... not really sure what you are expecting him to do when he's never starting games. In welkers first 3 years with the Patriots he started 40 games. I think that might have just a little bit to do with why his stats are better as well. In 2006 with 2 starts Welker had 67 receptions and almost 700 yards. I'd be interested to know exactly how many snaps he played that year. Oh yea I forgot also if Brady is making Welker how come Welkers stats barely dropped off at all in 2008 compared to 2007 and 2009? If it was all Tom surely his stats should have taken a big hit.

Collie has yet to prove anything that's why I'm so high on Welker and not as high on Collie. Come back and compare Collie to Welker when Collie has 3 straight 100 reception, 1000 yard years.

You think it's just some odd coincidence the first time Manning is having a "bad" season there just happens to be plenty of injures on his team.

Brady's doing well because Brady's a good QB.

bertstare.jpg I guess it will be a tight race with Brady and Manning for those career regular season stats then since Brady does everything just as well as Manning.

kethnaab
12-07-2010, 09:51 AM
Well my point this whole time to been to prove that Manning's situation this year is worse than Brady's which you for some reason do not agree with.

I'd say it's close, far closer than their performance gap would indicate.


How many yards, TD's, and receptions does Tate have compared to White?

relevance?


Yes but you did say Manning doesn't make receivers, ok so why did Stokley look like a superstar in 2004 then and then hasn't done anything since then? Manning's never topped 34 again, Brady's never even cracked 30 again.

Stokely never did anything in the other 3 seasons with the Colts either. Players have "blow up" seasons and then disappear. Braylon Edwards 2007, Roy Williams 2006, Lee Evans 2006. Stokley had a great season because Manning had an insane season. Would Stokley have done as well with the Patriots in 2007? *shrugs* who knows?


In 3 years Welker started a whole 3 games with Miami... not really sure what you are expecting him to do when he's never starting games. In welkers first 3 years with the Patriots he started 40 games. I think that might have just a little bit to do with why his stats are better as well.

perhaps having an outstanding QB helped him get into the lineup? Perhaps it helped having a precision QB who makes extremely quick reads and is content dinking and dunking to little whiteboy manlets until the defense is driven crazy?

and yes, it's pretty wild that Welker had a solid season in 2008 when Brady was gone. the receptions and yardage #s were very close, although there was a massive downturn in receiving TDs. Of course, the next season when Brady came back, he put up nearly 200 more yards receiving on a dozen more catches while missing a few games.


Collie has yet to prove anything that's why I'm so high on Welker and not as high on Collie.

cool. so why does it matter that Collie's out of the lineup then?


You think it's just some odd coincidence the first time Manning is having a "bad" season there just happens to be plenty of injures on his team.

not at all, but please spare me the tears for poor Peypey. He is in a situation that 99% of the rest of the NFL is in. His team has injuries. If you're looking for sympathy from me regarding his offensive line, consider the team I root for. You're barking up the wrong tree right there.

Manning still has a WR corps that is as good as any in the NFL with very few exceptions. His line isn't great, but it isn't that bad.

He's missing his primary TE, his running game sucks and he has protection problems. I'm sure Aaron Rodgers is crying hysterically for poor Peypey, as is Big Ben, Jay Cutler, and a good 3/4 of the QBs in the NFL in any given season.

The Colts have had injuries, but he still has a good bit of talent around him, and neither his OL nor his WR corps are bad. In fact, they're still "above average". It's just that Peyton Manning usually has a collection of extremely talented skill players around him

Peyton lovers bitching about his situation are like spoiled teenagers bitching about the car.

"Whoa is me....the Ferrari is in the shop, and I'm stuck driving this piece of $hit Mustang"

fatkidsayswhooaaa.gif


I guess it will be a tight race with Brady and Manning for those career regular season stats then since Brady does everything just as well as Manning.

Brady does everything BETTER than Manning. Stat accumulation is a byproduct of the offensive systems as well as talent. Air Coryell, Run-n-shoot, spread offenses....all are great for producing stats, but they are nowhere near as productive at producing championships. Brady had a season where the Patriots uncharacteristically aired it out, and Brady went absolutely nuts. It's obvious Brady CAN put up insane stats when the offense requires him to do so. It's also obvious that he can play conservatively and smart to win tough games when he has to.

Conservative systems that are balanced produce championships. Pass heavy systems produce stats for the QB but don't produce championships. You can have EITHER one OR the other. Proof of that is simple. Name the last QB to win a Super Bowl who also led the NFL in passing yardage.

go ahead...I'll wait.

SpiderSense
12-07-2010, 10:00 AM
Moral of the story? Super star QB goes down in Belichick's offense, team goes 11-5. Half the team gets hurt? No problem, 10-6. If Manning were to go down? Colts would win 3 games. Replacing coaches or skill players? Not a problem, still playoff bound.

Moral of the story?

Super star QB goes down in Belichick's offense, team goes 11-5 because the team has a respectable backup in Matt Cassel who has 23 TD's and 4 INT's this year, taking an otherwise terrible team to 1st place in their division and is a dark horse MVP candidate.

Poor Peyton.

It's too bad some teams put winning over more menial pursuits.

cor030
12-07-2010, 10:01 AM
so tired of hearing that "well the Patriots run an easy system that's why Brady is successful" argument. you guys act as if Manning is some genius and Brady is an idiot just following orders "K BILL BELICHICK ILL THROW BALL 2 THAT GUY WHEN HES OPEN"

yes, Peyton runs his offense. we get it, he's a very smart quarterback. the Colts put every ounce of effort into making sure Peyton is happy and building the team completely around him, while the Patriots worry about the team as a whole and not just Brady. probably why one team has won multiple championships this decade and the other has one.

if the Patriots system is so easy and any quarterback would be successful in it; why don't other teams just copy it?

OneO
12-07-2010, 10:01 AM
Brady > "pick six peyton"

i think when its all said and done that Eli will have more SB wins than ole "picksix"

45-3 lol . wonder if rex ryan will shut his hole now about winning the SB this year lol

kethnaab
12-07-2010, 10:01 AM
Moral of the story?

Super star QB goes down in Belichick's offense, team goes 11-5 because the team has a respectable backup in Matt Cassel who has 23 TD's and 4 INT's this year, taking an otherwise terrible team to 1st place in their division and is a dark horse MVP candidate.

Poor Peyton.

It's too bad some teams put winning over more menial pursuits.

*applause*

exactly. Apparently Cassel isn't all that bad. hell, his passer rating is, what, almost 10 points higher than Peypey's this season?

kethnaab
12-07-2010, 10:03 AM
yes, Peyton runs his offense. we get it, he's a very smart quarterback. the Colts put every ounce of effort into making sure Peyton is happy and building the team completely around him, while the Patriots worry about the team as a whole and not just Brady.

EXACTLY.

The Colts' priority is making sure Peyton is surrounded by skill players who help him accumulate stats in a Dome.

Other teams don't NEED to prioritize their QBs entirely while neglecting the rest of the team. They are able to actually draft and trade for players who help the team win, rather than drafting and trading to ensure their QB gets another MVP award

Advil
12-07-2010, 10:19 AM
kethnaab now gets reps for life from me

Coppatop
12-07-2010, 10:31 AM
kethnaab now gets reps for life from me

I echo this sentiment. I'm going to save this thread and refer to it from now on to the peyton fans I know. Solid arguments backed up with stats and research.

I love to watch football (life long pats fan, grew up in foxboro) but I am nowhere near as knowledgeable about it as kethnaab dere. I just like to watch.

TY son.

camaleom
12-07-2010, 11:23 AM
kethnaab now gets reps for life from me

Kethnaab is blind an unreasonable...

He can't see that Tom Brady has better weapons:

- Branch "nobody-injury prone" as number 1 rec
- Wes "broken" ligament Walker
- 2 Rookies (TE) one is 21, and the other one look mentally retarded
- 2 Manlets as RB (one being white [no racist])
- 1 Deep treat with butter hands (Tate)
- 1 Prow-B OL took half of the season Off

are way way way better than PM weapons...

c'mon Kethnaab you are legally blind...

LOLOLOLOL

kethnaab
12-07-2010, 11:25 AM
Kethnaab is blind an unreasonable...

He can't see that Tom Brady has better weapons:

- Branch "nobody-injury prone" as number 1 rec
- Wes "broken" ligament Walker
- 2 Rookies (TE) one is 21, and the other one look mentally retarded
- 2 Manlets as RB (one being white [no racist])
- 1 Deep treat with butter hands (Tate)
- 1 Prow-B OL took half of the season Off

are way way way better than PM weapons...

c'mon Kethnaab you are legally blind...



oh snap, I just got pwn3ed

Sick96stang
12-07-2010, 10:58 PM
I'd say it's close, far closer than their performance gap would indicate.

So I named off 3 disadvantages Manning has, exactly what disadvantages does Brady have that Manning doesn't? For it to be close one would think you should be able to name at least 1 or 2 advantages that Manning has that Brady doesn't. Unless you think better o-line play, better running game, and more practice with equal receivers aren't big things in regards to QB success.




relevance?

You said Tate was Brady's sixth option, White is Manning's 6th option. Just wondering how often Brady has had to throw to his sixth option compared to Manning to his.



Stokely never did anything in the other 3 seasons with the Colts either. Players have "blow up" seasons and then disappear. Braylon Edwards 2007, Roy Williams 2006, Lee Evans 2006. Stokley had a great season because Manning had an insane season. Would Stokley have done as well with the Patriots in 2007? *shrugs* who knows?

Well 03 and 06 he played a combined 10 games in those two seasons so that would probably explain why there was no production from him in those 2 seasons. 05 I couldn't really tell you why he didn't produce maybe he did have a blow up season like you said.



perhaps having an outstanding QB helped him get into the lineup? Perhaps it helped having a precision QB who makes extremely quick reads and is content dinking and dunking to little whiteboy manlets until the defense is driven crazy?

and yes, it's pretty wild that Welker had a solid season in 2008 when Brady was gone. the receptions and yardage #s were very close, although there was a massive downturn in receiving TDs. Of course, the next season when Brady came back, he put up nearly 200 more yards receiving on a dozen more catches while missing a few games.

An outstanding QB should help make any receiver get into the starting lineup. So apparently something had to set Welker apart from the rest that he got into the starting lineup. If Welker was no better than Edleman then I would imagine the Pats would have already traded him away as I'm sure they know they could get some great value for him.

Well it would be pretty crazy to think Welker is going to put up identitical stats with a QB who hasn't started a game since high school. The fact that he put up #'s even close to that of what he did with the almighty Brady I'm sure boggles your mind as after all Tom is making Welker who he is.


cool. so why does it matter that Collie's out of the lineup then?

Who do you think Manning got more reps with in the off season Collie or Blair White? You think practice time doesn't make a difference between QB and WR?



not at all, but please spare me the tears for poor Peypey. He is in a situation that 99% of the rest of the NFL is in. His team has injuries. If you're looking for sympathy from me regarding his offensive line, consider the team I root for. You're barking up the wrong tree right there.

Manning still has a WR corps that is as good as any in the NFL with very few exceptions. His line isn't great, but it isn't that bad.

He's missing his primary TE, his running game sucks and he has protection problems. I'm sure Aaron Rodgers is crying hysterically for poor Peypey, as is Big Ben, Jay Cutler, and a good 3/4 of the QBs in the NFL in any given season.

The Colts have had injuries, but he still has a good bit of talent around him, and neither his OL nor his WR corps are bad. In fact, they're still "above average". It's just that Peyton Manning usually has a collection of extremely talented skill players around him

Peyton lovers bitching about his situation are like spoiled teenagers bitching about the car.

"Whoa is me....the Ferrari is in the shop, and I'm stuck driving this piece of $hit Mustang"

fatkidsayswhooaaa.gif

99% of the NFL huh? Rodgers is about the only QB that is in the same situation as Peyton and even Rodgers situation isn't as bad because I believe his #1-#4 receivers have all been healthy for nearly the entire year and his defense is one of the best in the league. Please do feel free to name off this 99% though that has a last ranked running game, injures to receivers #2,#3, and #5 on the depth chart, and an average offensive line. Lets not forget to also throw in that the defense certain isn't helping him at all by not stopping too many people when they're on the field. I'm eagerly waiting to hear what QB in the NFL right now matches all those criteria.

Isn't it convenient how Manning's receiving core no matter who it is always is one of the best in the league. Since Manning came into the league in 98 this is how the WR's/TE's drafted for him have looked

98: 2nd Round (Jerome Pathon) 3rd round (E.G. Green) Two clear superstars there for Manning
99: No WR's/No TE's
00: No WR's/No TE's
01: 1st Round (Reggie Wayne)
02: No WR's/no TE's
03: 1st round (Dallas Clark)
04: 3rd round (Ben Harstock) Another clear superstar for Manning
05: No WR's/No TE's
06: No WR's/No TE's
07: 1st round (Anthony Gonzalez) Has hardly even played 5th round (Roy Hall) Who?
08: 4th round (Jacob Tamme) 6th round (Tom Santi) 6th round (Pierre Garcon) I love how you said that about Brees and how it was so amazing he was taking 7th rounder and undrafteds and making them awesome because it sure looks like Manning is doing the same thing with Garcon.
09: 4th round (Austin Collie) Once again a later round draft pick who is young who is looking like a superstar.
10: 5th round (Brody Eldridge)

So for how much you spout off about how the Colts always draft for Manning and just load his receiving core in the 13 years Manning has been in the league they've spent an entire 3 first round picks on WR's/TE's, 1 in the second round, 2 in the third round, 2 in the fourth. You're right Colts are just trying to completely stack Manning's receiving core year in and year out with high WR and TE draft picks. Colts don't even spend that many draft picks on WR's and TE's yet year in and year out no matter who is in the line up they always look like super stars. Hmmmm wonder why that is.

Neither Big Ben nor Jay Cutler nor 3/4 of the league have to deal with all those issues.



Brady does everything BETTER than Manning. Stat accumulation is a byproduct of the offensive systems as well as talent. Air Coryell, Run-n-shoot, spread offenses....all are great for producing stats, but they are nowhere near as productive at producing championships. Brady had a season where the Patriots uncharacteristically aired it out, and Brady went absolutely nuts. It's obvious Brady CAN put up insane stats when the offense requires him to do so. It's also obvious that he can play conservatively and smart to win tough games when he has to.

Conservative systems that are balanced produce championships. Pass heavy systems produce stats for the QB but don't produce championships. You can have EITHER one OR the other. Proof of that is simple. Name the last QB to win a Super Bowl who also led the NFL in passing yardage.

go ahead...I'll wait.

Oh now I've heard it at all. So somehow stat accumulation is a byproduct of the offensive system and talent yet whatever Brady does better than Manning isn't a byproduct of that? Please do explain exactly what Brady does better than Manning and how that isn't a byproduct of the offensive system and talent. Wrong again... Manning averages 544 attempts per year, Brady who according to you hasn't aired it out much in his career in the seasons he's played all 16 games average 541 pass attempts. ZOMG you're right Manning just airs it out so much more than Brady. He averages a whole 3 more attempts per season. To prove you wrong even a bit further you said 2007 he uncharacteristically aired the ball out a lot. 2007 wasn't even Brady's year with the most attempts. He had 578 in 2007 but had 601 in 2002.

Like I showed Brady throws the ball just as much as Manning does. The reason the Patriots won championships was because they had a stout defense. In 2001 Brady had 1 TD, 1 INT, 190 YPG, and an 80.3 QB rating. I'll repeat that HE HAD 1 FREAKING TOUCHDOWN THE WHOLE POST SEASON. Nobody other than Tom Brady is winning a super bowl throwing 1 TD the entire post season. Now lets move onto ring #2. Tom really stepped his game up for this post season accumulating the massive stats of 5 TD's, 2 INT's, 264 YPG, 83.3 QB rating. At least I guess we could call him a game manager for this post season as he was able to throw for more than 1 TD though his QB rating was still average at best. Ring #3 he finally actually played and lead his team to a SB victory with some very impressive stats in that post season rather than riding his defense all the way.

Advil
12-07-2010, 11:21 PM
tl;dr bradys better. stats are for losers.

Sick96stang
12-07-2010, 11:21 PM
the Colts put every ounce of effort into making sure Peyton is happy and building the team completely around him, while the Patriots worry about the team as a whole and not just Brady.

98: 2nd Round (Jerome Pathon) 3rd round (E.G. Green)
99: No WR's/No TE's
00: No WR's/No TE's
01: 1st Round (Reggie Wayne)
02: No WR's/no TE's
03: 1st round (Dallas Clark)
04: 3rd round (Ben Harstock)
05: No WR's/No TE's
06: No WR's/No TE's
07: 1st round (Anthony Gonzalez) 5th round (Roy Hall)
08: 4th round (Jacob Tamme) 6th round (Tom Santi) 6th round (Pierre Garcon)
09: 4th round (Austin Collie)
10: 5th round (Brody Eldridge)

In that time period this is how the Patriots drafted for WR/TE's

98: 2nd round (Tony Simmons) 2nd round (Rod Rutledge)
99: 7th round (Sean Morey)
00: 5th round (Dave Stacheiski)
01: 4th round (Jabari Holloway) 6th round (Arthur Love)
02: 1st round (Daniel Graham) 2nd round (Deion Branch) 7th round (David Givens)
03: 2nd round (Bethel Johnson) 7th round (Spencer Nead)
04: 1st round (Ben Watson) 5th round (PK Sam)
05: 7th round (Andy Stokes)
06: 2nd round (Chad Jackson) 3rd Round (David Thomas)
07: No WR's/No TE's (About time)
08: 5th round (Matt Slater)
09: 3rd round (Brandon Tate) 7th round (Julian Edleman)
10: 2nd round (Rob Gronkowski) 3rd round (Taylor Price) 4th round (Aaron Hernandez)


So for a bit more in depth break down

First round:
Manning: 3
Brady: 2

Second Round:
Manning: 1
Brady: 6

Third Round:
Manning: 2
Brady: 3

Fourth Round:
Manning: 2
Brady: 2

Fifth Round:
Manning: 2
Brady: 3

Sixth Round:
Manning: 2
Brady: 1

Seventh Round:
Manning: 0
Brady: 5

Overall:
Manning: 12
Brady: 22

Pats have drafted 10 more receiving options for Brady since 1998 than the Colts have for Manning since that same time. Manning has only received 1 additional receiving option from first round picks than Brady has. Brady has gotten 5 more second round picks, 1 more third round pick, 1 more 5th round pick, and 5 more 7th round picks.

**** just got real.

JTrain306
12-07-2010, 11:22 PM
lol'd at giant essays from angry Peyton Manning fans

Sick96stang
12-07-2010, 11:24 PM
lol'd at giant essays from angry Peyton Manning fans

lol'd at no real response to stats and facts.

Ejjw18
12-08-2010, 12:01 AM
lol'd at no real response to stats and facts.

you want stats?

Brady- 3 rings, 4 appearances
Manning- 1 ring, 2 appearances

sorry but that's really all that matters and comes down to.

in b4 "well DM didn't win a SB"

Sick96stang
12-08-2010, 12:05 AM
you want stats?

Brady- 3 rings, 4 appearances
Manning- 1 ring, 2 appearances

sorry but that's really all that matters and comes down to.

in b4 "well DM didn't win a SB"

The reason Brady has won championships was because they had a stout defense. In 2001 Brady had 1 TD, 1 INT, 190 YPG, and an 80.3 QB rating. I'll repeat that HE HAD 1 FREAKING TOUCHDOWN THE WHOLE POST SEASON. Nobody other than Tom Brady is winning a super bowl throwing 1 TD the entire post season. Now lets move onto ring #2. Tom really stepped his game up for this post season accumulating the massive stats of 5 TD's, 2 INT's, 264 YPG, 83.3 QB rating. At least I guess we could call him a game manager for this post season as he was able to throw for more than 1 TD though his QB rating was still average at best. Ring #3 he finally actually played and lead his team to a SB victory with some very impressive stats in that post season rather than riding his defense all the way.

Advil
12-08-2010, 12:21 AM
The reason Brady has won championships was because they had a stout defense. In 2001 Brady had 1 TD, 1 INT, 190 YPG, and an 80.3 QB rating. I'll repeat that HE HAD 1 FREAKING TOUCHDOWN THE WHOLE POST SEASON. Nobody other than Tom Brady is winning a super bowl throwing 1 TD the entire post season. Now lets move onto ring #2. Tom really stepped his game up for this post season accumulating the massive stats of 5 TD's, 2 INT's, 264 YPG, 83.3 QB rating. At least I guess we could call him a game manager for this post season as he was able to throw for more than 1 TD though his QB rating was still average at best. Ring #3 he finally actually played and lead his team to a SB victory with some very impressive stats in that post season rather than riding his defense all the way.

Moral of this story: What do you call someone who gets all D's through medical school?


Doctor.

jdo1
12-08-2010, 12:29 AM
lol'd at no real response to stats and facts.

"Stats are for losers, winning is everything" - Bill Belichick

Sick96stang
12-08-2010, 12:31 AM
"Stats are for losers, winning is everything" - Bill Belichick

"Trent Dilfer > Dan Marino" - jdo1

Ejjw18
12-08-2010, 12:37 AM
"Trent Dilfer > Dan Marino" - jdo1

I hate this argument. Comparing Dilfer to Marino is a joke. But comparing Brady and Manning is NOTHING like comparing DM and Dilf.

BUT, with that being said...at the end of the day Dilfer can walk by Marino flashing his bling ring and Marino can't say ****. Why? Because you play the game to win and win SB's and Marino didn't do that.

Sick96stang
12-08-2010, 12:42 AM
I hate this argument. Comparing Dilfer to Marino is a joke. But comparing Brady and Manning is NOTHING like comparing DM and Dilf.

BUT, with that being said...at the end of the day Dilfer can walk by Marino flashing his bling ring and Marino can't say ****. Why? Because you play the game to win and win SB's and Marino didn't do that.

Comparing QB's based on amount of rings won is a joke. It takes a team to win a super bowl and at that normally the defense has a lot more to do with winning rings than an offense thus it makes even less sense to compare QB's on that notion.

lovebbing
12-08-2010, 12:56 AM
I hate this argument. Comparing Dilfer to Marino is a joke. But comparing Brady and Manning is NOTHING like comparing DM and Dilf.

BUT, with that being said...at the end of the day Dilfer can walk by Marino flashing his bling ring and Marino can't say ****. Why? Because you play the game to win and win SB's and Marino didn't do that.

great post. srs



Comparing QB's based on amount of rings won is a joke. It takes a team to win a super bowl and at that normally the defense has a lot more to do with winning rings than an offense thus it makes even less sense to compare QB's on that notion.

its not comparing them solely based off that, its just a very major factor in analyzing someones success.

you can flash your little stats that brady isnt good because of the numbers he put up, but thats just dumb. explain how a 199th draft pick 23 year old, who played backup all his life, guide the team to a superbowl championship over a dynasty?? stats are so decieving, because in the end, its about getting the job done when it matters most.

Sick96stang
12-08-2010, 12:59 AM
its not comparing them solely based off that, its just a very major factor in analyzing someones success.

So to compare QB's you feel it's most fitting to take the most team oriented stat there is and put the heaviest emphasis on that... strong logic.

Huse
12-08-2010, 06:40 AM
HOWEVER...let's go back in time to 2008. What can possibly one-up this? Simple, Brady getting injured. How do the Pats respond? Well, they don't make the playoffs, only because the Miami Dolphins had an amazing season in a very stacked division, but they still record an 11-5 record. How do they do it? With a star QB that hadn't started a game since high school, yet they still record a top 10 offense.

i swear i've responded to a post similar to this a hundred times in the past few weeks.
cassel has been an NFL starting QB for the last 3 seasons. There are not many starting caliber NFL qbs in the league. Look at his stats this year. Keep saying he's a scrub who didn't start any games but keep in mind he backed up two heisman QBs at USC and one of the greatest NFL qbs of all time for like 3 years, it's not like he was sitting on the pine for scrubs. Just ignorance. And yeah the pats had a top 10 offense but please he inherited the BEST OFFENSE OF ALL TIME.



The reason I give Peyton the edge is that he single handedly runs the Colts. Doesn't matter who's coaching, who's at running back, who's at wide receiver, tight end, etc, Colts make the playoffs, and they have been since Peyton's second season. They were in the playoffs an entire DECADE, despite going through 3 coaching changes. Dungy retires? Hey, no problem, we're still going to the Super Bowl. The only problem with Peyton is that he tries to do too much. He's human. He wins games by himself, and he's one of the few QB's I've seen that flat out destroys teams while they have the higher time of possession. People make excuses for the offensive line in Manning's case, this year they do have one. Proof? How bad is your line that you get sacked while handing off the ball?

This is such nonsense. The Pats make the playoffs just as often as the Colts do so what are you tring to get at? And boo hoo Dungy retires. Manning has had one of the greatest offensive coordinators in NFL history his entire career. Brady has had two different offensive coordinators and several seasons with NO OFFENSIVE COORDINATOR.

Huse
12-08-2010, 06:42 AM
Patriots in 10 years (since 2000, first year of BB): 5-11*, 11-5, 9-7, 14-2, 14-2, 10-6, 12-4, 16-0, 11-5*, 10-6

Brady comes in right at the bolded part when they won their first Super Bowl. BB didn't have his success until Brady came in.

Now I really don't know where I stand on the argument...but these are interesting numbers. Definitely impressive of how both teams have been able to put together awesome seasons and not hit a drop-off like the others mentioned above.

now keep in mind brady came in when the Pats were 0-2 so he really was 11-3 with a superbowl of course

rampagefc77
12-08-2010, 06:48 AM
Moral of this story: What do you call someone who gets all D's through medical school?


Doctor.

Need a 70 to pass in Medical school, so you can him a CNA actually... If for some reason he passes, you call him a family practice doctor he will have a hard time matching in residencies.

FWIW you need an 80 to pass PA school, even when you take the same class with the med students who only need a 70.

rampagefc77
12-08-2010, 06:56 AM
i swear i've responded to a post similar to this a hundred times in the past few weeks.
cassel has been an NFL starting QB for the last 3 seasons. There are not many starting caliber NFL qbs in the league. Look at his stats this year. Keep saying he's a scrub who didn't start any games but keep in mind he backed up two heisman QBs at USC and one of the greatest NFL qbs of all time for like 3 years, it's not like he was sitting on the pine for scrubs. Just ignorance. And yeah the pats had a top 10 offense but please he inherited the BEST OFFENSE OF ALL TIME.


Cassel's first season starting 327 516 63.4 32.2 3,693 7.2 230.8 21 11 rating 89
Cassel's 2nd season starting 271 493 55.0 32.9 2,924 5.9 194.9 16 16 rating 69

Generally player's get better with experience, what happened here? Oh ya, he went from the patriots to another team.

Him having decent numbers 3 years later doesn't mean he was a great QB the first time he took the field. Just for arguments sake.

Huse
12-08-2010, 07:01 AM
Like I showed Brady throws the ball just as much as Manning does. The reason the Patriots won championships was because they had a stout defense. In 2001 Brady had 1 TD, 1 INT, 190 YPG, and an 80.3 QB rating. I'll repeat that HE HAD 1 FREAKING TOUCHDOWN THE WHOLE POST SEASON. Nobody other than Tom Brady is winning a super bowl throwing 1 TD the entire post season. Now lets move onto ring #2. Tom really stepped his game up for this post season accumulating the massive stats of 5 TD's, 2 INT's, 264 YPG, 83.3 QB rating. At least I guess we could call him a game manager for this post season as he was able to throw for more than 1 TD though his QB rating was still average at best. Ring #3 he finally actually played and lead his team to a SB victory with some very impressive stats in that post season rather than riding his defense all the way.

Pats had a 1st round bye and Brady was injured for the AFCCG. 1st game against Oakland was the "snow bowl" so in case you didn't know both teams weren't exactly scoring many TDs, unlike Peyton Brady doesn't get to play in ideal conditions when it's winter time. There were as many punts as 1st downs that game. In the 2nd half the Pats didn't run the ball and Brady went 26 of 39 passes for 238 yards in the second half and a TD. Nice how you left some of these little facts out.

Also Brady had a TD in the superbowl so you are full of shyt

Huse
12-08-2010, 07:02 AM
Cassel's first season starting 327 516 63.4 32.2 3,693 7.2 230.8 21 11 rating 89
Cassel's 2nd season starting 271 493 55.0 32.9 2,924 5.9 194.9 16 16 rating 69

Generally player's get better with experience, what happened here? Oh ya, he went from the patriots to another team.

Him having decent numbers 3 years later doesn't mean he was a great QB the first time he took the field. Just for arguments sake.

Uhm....yeah so surprising that after 3 years in the Pats season and surrounded by Moss, Welker a good Oline he had to go to KC with no weapons and a different team that he had a statistical drop off.

Ejjw18
12-08-2010, 07:05 AM
Cassel's first season starting 327 516 63.4 32.2 3,693 7.2 230.8 21 11 rating 89
Cassel's 2nd season starting 271 493 55.0 32.9 2,924 5.9 194.9 16 16 rating 69

Generally player's get better with experience, what happened here? Oh ya, he went from the patriots to another team.

Him having decent numbers 3 years later doesn't mean he was a great QB the first time he took the field. Just for arguments sake.

lol he went to a terrible team.

rampagefc77
12-08-2010, 07:11 AM
Uhm....yeah so surprising that after 3 years in the Pats season and surrounded by Moss, Welker a good Oline he had to go to KC with no weapons and a different team that he had a statistical drop off.

Welker is a nobody because Brady is surrounded by nobodies this year, right?

Im just f-ing with you now yovi, all in good fun.

kethnaab
12-08-2010, 08:53 AM
stang, we've gone back and forth on this, what, annually? It's like groundhog day, nothing new is coming up.

as for the Cassell thing, Cassell was Brady's backup for 3 years. When he came in to replace Brady in 2008, he was intimately familiar with the gameplan.

People say the Patriots didn't drop off much in 2008 because they went 11-5. Well, they went 16-0 the season before, and Cassell threw 21 TDs, less than half. When you compare Cassell's 2008 season to Brady's 2009 season, there are a few interesting points that pop out

Cassell 2008 - 3693 yards, 63.4%, 21 TDs, 11 picks, 89.4 PR, 47 sacks
Brady 2009 - 4398 yards, 65.7%, 28 TDs, 13 picks, 96.2 PR, 16 sacks

same offensive line. Brady, along with Brees, are the quickest at getting rid of the ball. That offensive line is simply not that great.

kethnaab
12-08-2010, 08:55 AM
unlike Peyton Brady doesn't get to play in ideal conditions when it's winter time. There were as many punts as 1st downs that game.

dome conditions = great stats. not a surprise that guys like Warner, Manning, and Marino, all of whom are outstanding QBs, also flourished in a dome/down south where the weather is just lovely. :)


In the 2nd half the Pats didn't run the ball and Brady went 26 of 39 passes for 238 yards in the second half and a TD. Nice how you left some of these little facts out.


another reason I'm bowing out of this thread. Selectivity as a primary MO

kethnaab
12-08-2010, 09:12 AM
So for a bit more in depth break down

Seventh Round:
Manning: 0
Brady: 5

Overall:
Manning: 12
Brady: 22

Pats have drafted 10 more receiving options for Brady since 1998 than the Colts have for Manning

yeah, and half of them in the 7th round. Are you frickin' serious???

They already had Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne, one of the best 1-2 punches in the last 40 years of the NFL. You also forgot the trio of 1st round draft choices spent on running backs that Peypey loved to throw to (not that I blame him)

Edge alone in his entire career with the Colts had a low of 44 receptions, not counting his injury season in 2001, and Addai picked up right where Edge left off, getting 40-50 receptions each of his seasons as starter or semi-starter, aside from 2008 when he was injured.

again, great job of regurgitating stats and picking and choosing the ones that suit you while ignoring reality.



**** just got real.

no, it just got even more ridiculous.

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/

for a fun exercise, go through that site and pick out those that the 'stang has obviously mastered.

SpiderSense
12-08-2010, 09:15 AM
Not only that but the Patriots are notorious for trading down, so naturally they're gonna have more pics.

My god, ****Stang is a MORON.

Sick96stang
12-08-2010, 09:27 AM
Pats had a 1st round bye and Brady was injured for the AFCCG. 1st game against Oakland was the "snow bowl" so in case you didn't know both teams weren't exactly scoring many TDs, unlike Peyton Brady doesn't get to play in ideal conditions when it's winter time. There were as many punts as 1st downs that game. In the 2nd half the Pats didn't run the ball and Brady went 26 of 39 passes for 238 yards in the second half and a TD. Nice how you left some of these little facts out.

Also Brady had a TD in the superbowl so you are full of shyt

Weird because the snow bowl was the game he threw for the most yards by far. 312 yards in that game as opposed to 115 and 145. Boohoo Brady had to play in the snow. Not like he hasn't done it before with success so that's not a legit excuse. Yes Brady ran for a TD he didn't throw one.

Brady's single passing TD was in the super bowl and the rest of his stats were still pathetic throughout that post season. My point still stands Brady rode his defense to that title. No other QB who throws for 1 TD and runs for 1 TD in the entire post season wins a super bowl.

Sick96stang
12-08-2010, 09:34 AM
stang, we've gone back and forth on this, what, annually? It's like groundhog day, nothing new is coming up.

as for the Cassell thing, Cassell was Brady's backup for 3 years. When he came in to replace Brady in 2008, he was intimately familiar with the gameplan.

People say the Patriots didn't drop off much in 2008 because they went 11-5. Well, they went 16-0 the season before, and Cassell threw 21 TDs, less than half. When you compare Cassell's 2008 season to Brady's 2009 season, there are a few interesting points that pop out

Cassell 2008 - 3693 yards, 63.4%, 21 TDs, 11 picks, 89.4 PR, 47 sacks
Brady 2009 - 4398 yards, 65.7%, 28 TDs, 13 picks, 96.2 PR, 16 sacks

same offensive line. Brady, along with Brees, are the quickest at getting rid of the ball. That offensive line is simply not that great.

I don't think so. This is the first time I can really remember arguing with you about Manning. Seems you have grown quite a bit sour in regards to Manning over the years.

I'm certainly not saying Cassell is even close to as good as Brady or the whole oh Brady's only good because of the system or anything like that. Watch some Pats games this year like said just last game the commentators were pointing out how much time Brady has to throw the ball. In 2007 how do you think he got so many deep balls to Moss? Even with how fast Moss is those deep plays still take some time to develop and I watched every single Pats game in 2007 and Brady sat back in the pocket plenty of times for 3+ seconds. Though to agree with you a bit Brady certainly does have the ability to get the ball out quick, I've seen that many many times as well.

Sick96stang
12-08-2010, 09:40 AM
yeah, and half of them in the 7th round. Are you frickin' serious???

They already had Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne, one of the best 1-2 punches in the last 40 years of the NFL. You also forgot the trio of 1st round draft choices spent on running backs that Peypey loved to throw to (not that I blame him)

Edge alone in his entire career with the Colts had a low of 44 receptions, not counting his injury season in 2001, and Addai picked up right where Edge left off, getting 40-50 receptions each of his seasons as starter or semi-starter, aside from 2008 when he was injured.

again, great job of regurgitating stats and picking and choosing the ones that suit you while ignoring reality.



no, it just got even more ridiculous.

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/

for a fun exercise, go through that site and pick out those that the 'stang has obviously mastered.

What does that matter? You said Colts draft every year just to surround Manning with talent. There was multiple years they didn't even draft a WR/TE for him when yet the Pats in that same time period only went 1 year without drafting a WR/TE. The overall # was just to prove that it's nonsense that the Colts spend so many draft picks on Manning and that the Patriots don't. I showed you every round of how WR/TE draft picks went and the Pats consistently drafted more of them even in the higher rounds. Sans the first round where Manning received an entire 1 more draft pick than Brady.

Reggie Wayne was included in my stats. That was going back to 1998. Sorry I didn't go all the way back to 1985 as maybe somebody from that draft was still playing on the Colts at that time. If you want to go all the way back to that and figure it out be my guest. Fact is I gave 13 years of draft selections (which is a pretty healthy amount) and the Pats drafted for Brady than Colts did for Manning in regards to WR/TE's.

I'm not gonna sit here and type out all the lineman and all the running backs drafted in the last 13 years. It's not me picking and choosing stats I just took the most relevant one to QB's success (WR and TE's) and did that one. If you would like to go through and type out all the lineman and RB's from the past 13 years be my guest and maybe you'll have a valid point.

Sick96stang
12-08-2010, 09:41 AM
Not only that but the Patriots are notorious for trading down, so naturally they're gonna have more pics.

My god, ****Stang is a MORON.

Yet amazingly with all this trading down the Pats did Manning had an entire 1 more WR/TE drafted for him than Brady.

My god, Spider**** is a MORON.

jdo1
12-08-2010, 09:45 AM
Cassel's first season starting 327 516 63.4 32.2 3,693 7.2 230.8 21 11 rating 89
Cassel's 2nd season starting 271 493 55.0 32.9 2,924 5.9 194.9 16 16 rating 69

Generally player's get better with experience, what happened here? Oh ya, he went from the patriots to another team.

Him having decent numbers 3 years later doesn't mean he was a great QB the first time he took the field. Just for arguments sake.

so your saying pats offense is better than chiefs offense....interesting

JTrain306
12-08-2010, 12:49 PM
lol'd at no real response to stats and facts.
except for all the fukking stats and facts in this thread that you ignore because you're insecure about your favorite QB being overrated

MikePhoenix
12-08-2010, 12:54 PM
Peyton has never had a defense nearly as good as brady has had all of his career. Peyton always has to carry his team on his back.


(not mad, falcons fan)

FAIL man, sorry. Tom braddy likes to win games in the 4th quarter. I dont know how many games ive seen brady win in the last 2 minutes...

kethnaab
12-08-2010, 01:13 PM
My point still stands Brady rode his defense to that title. No other QB who throws for 1 TD and runs for 1 TD in the entire post season wins a super bowl.

how about a QB who throws 3 TDs and 7 interceptions in an entire post season and wins a Super Bowl?

anyway, I'm out. This thread gives me a headache. :)

gabe2gg
12-08-2010, 02:06 PM
hey stang wanna compare mannings stats outside a comfy dome?

Greg1983
12-08-2010, 04:02 PM
hey stang wanna compare mannings stats outside a comfy dome?

Doubtful, because under similar conditions it shows that Manning got lesser stats with a better offensive supporting cast for the majority of their careers.

Sick96stang
12-08-2010, 11:08 PM
except for all the fukking stats and facts in this thread that you ignore because you're insecure about your favorite QB being overrated

Please do point out which stats and facts I ignored. There was certainly some stats and facts being ignored but it wasn't on my part.

Sick96stang
12-08-2010, 11:09 PM
FAIL man, sorry. Tom braddy likes to win games in the 4th quarter. I dont know how many games ive seen brady win in the last 2 minutes...

You do know Manning has a lot more 4th quarter/OT comebacks than Brady right?

Sick96stang
12-08-2010, 11:10 PM
how about a QB who throws 3 TDs and 7 interceptions in an entire post season and wins a Super Bowl?

anyway, I'm out. This thread gives me a headache. :)

Manning very well might be the only QB to win with stats like that only difference is Manning never gets credit anyway for winning his super bowl yet people love to talk about Tommy 3 rings and how it's all him who won those 3 rings.

Sick96stang
12-08-2010, 11:12 PM
hey stang wanna compare mannings stats outside a comfy dome?

Brady plays better than Manning outside, your point being? This is a double win for Brady because Brady nuthuggers love to talk about how much better Brady plays outside than Manning yet when Brady has a bad game outside it's "oh well there was bad weather so that's why Brady played bad". See Huse in this thread for an example of that.

Sick96stang
12-08-2010, 11:12 PM
Doubtful, because under similar conditions it shows that Manning got lesser stats with a better offensive supporting cast for the majority of their careers.

Colts must be just really good at drafting then because Pats (at least at the WR/TE position) have spent more picks on Brady than the Colts have on Manning.

avokshi2000
12-08-2010, 11:27 PM
Wow, now that Brady is coming up on the golden boy's passer rating, what are the haters going to say? I'm pretty sure I already see it coming- it's about longevity stats- total career yards; it's about throwing interception ala Favre and sacrificing personal stats to have a chance a winning; it's about making motions at the line of scrimmage; it's about calling out your offensive line; it's about your wide receivers dropping balls; it's about Reggie Wayne running the wrong route in the Super Bowl; it's about the defense; it's about the coaching staff, etc. etc. etc.

Frankly, I'm sick of the obvious fact that Brady is a better quarterback when it matters most, which is obvious and couldn't be by a greater margin. I'm sick of hearing that wins and championships are a team effort, used to belittle Brady against the propaganda machines; this argument is not only fallacious, but also irrelevant. Brady is the better quarterback, period. He is better by most statistical measures in nearly every situation.

I thought I would post a few interesting stats. I would argue that statistically, Brady is currently the best quarterback who ever played the game. He is pretty far better than Manning, if you break down the stats on an even playing field, rather than the longevity numbers, and Manning is supposedly the benchmark.

Passer Rating
Manning- 94.8
Brady- 94.7

Passer Rating Breakdown- Why Brady is better

Brady's stats are still better than Manning's, since interceptions have the highest correlation to winning %. Let's see what the stats would produce with both quarterbacks throwing 500 times in a season:

Brady- 318-500, 3700 yards, 27.5 TDs, 11 INTs
Manning- 325-500, 3800 yards, 27.5 TDs 14 INTs

The question would become, would you sacrifice 100 passing yards and seven completions for three less interceptions? I think the answer is obvious. Three interceptions over a full season would likely translate to an additional loss, if not two.

TD:INT Ratio

Brady- 2.45:1
Manning- 1.99:1

If you don't think this is a big discrepancy, do some research. This is basically the difference between Manning and an average quarterback on the other end.

Split Situations

This should prove beyond any doubt that Brady is better, and this doesn't even include the clutch factor.

Indoors:
Brady- 103.1
Manning- 98.6

Outdoors:
Brady- 93.8
Manning- 90.7

Cold (24-40 degrees):
Brady- 94.5
Manning- 85.0

Mild (41-60 degrees):
Brady- 95.7
Manning- 85.7

Rain
Brady- 95.1
Manning- 83.8

Wind
Brady- 95.1
Manning- 82.6


Defense

Here's how the Patriots and Colts have stacked up since the rivalry really began in 2001. I'm putting which team had the better defense based on points allowed.

'10- Colts
'09- Patriots
'08- Colts
'07- Colts (led NFL in fewest points allowed)
'06- Patriots (2nd in NFL)
'05- Colts (2nd in NFL)
'04- Patriots (2nd in NFL)
'03- Patriots (1st in NFL)
'02- Colts
'01- Patriots

Final Result- In ten seasons, the Colts defense has allowed fewer points five times. The Colts have had a top-2 scoring defense twice, while the Patriots have three times.

Pro Bowls/ First Round Draft Choices

Here's a list of pro bowl players that each quarterback has had at his disposal for skill positions.

Brady's Pro Bowl Players- Randy Moss* (2), Wes Welker (2), Troy Brown, Corey Dillon, total of 6.

Manning's Pro Bowl Players- Marvin Harrison* (8), Edgerrin James* (4), Reggie Wayne* (4), Marshall Faulk*, Dallas Clark*, Joseph Addai*, total of 19.

*First-round pick

huh?

kethnaab
12-08-2010, 11:33 PM
Manning very well might be the only QB to win with stats like that only difference is Manning never gets credit anyway for winning his super bowl yet people love to talk about Tommy 3 rings and how it's all him who won those 3 rings.

Manning got carried in his lone Super Bowl. He was average in the Super Bowl and bad in 2 of the 3 playoff games. In fact, he was downright horrid.

In Brady's first postseason, he was very average. Over his next 2 postseasons, he put up 10 TDs, 2 picks, and another rushing TD and had an overall passer rating of somewhere around 105(ish)

so yeah, Brady was along for the ride in his 2nd season as a Pro, but his 4th and 5th seasons, he was excellent

kethnaab
12-08-2010, 11:36 PM
Colts must be just really good at drafting then because Pats (at least at the WR/TE position) have spent more picks on Brady than the Colts have on Manning.

and as I said multiple times

1) Those "extra picks" were mostly later round picks
2) The Colts already had Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison and later, Dallas Clark

I mean seriously, why would you spend several more picks on a position you're already ridiculous fat in? A pair of 1st rounder WRs and a 1st rounder TE.

U.S.M.C. TANKER
12-09-2010, 12:14 AM
Manning haters are at full force, damn, this is a rare moment indeed. Hate while you can, you might not get another chance later down the road.

Tomorrow's game will be interesting to watch, if he plays flawless, then I might be able to see the Colts winning the remainder of the season. However, the Colts are pretty banged up to say the least. No running game, horrible rushing D, poor OL. And worst of it all, Manning is in a slump, made tons of stupid mistakes and causing multiple lost. It is not looking good fellow Colts fans, but hey it is what it is.

TAWS6
12-09-2010, 12:16 AM
Manning haters are at full force, damn, this is a rare moment indeed. Hate while you can, you might not get another chance later down the road.

Tomorrow's game will be interesting to watch, if he plays flawless, then I might be able to see the Colts winning the remainder of the season. However, the Colts are pretty banged up to say the least. No running game, horrible rushing D, poor OL. And worst of it all, Manning is in a slump, made tons of stupid mistakes and causing multiple lost. It is not looking good fellow Colts fans, but hey it is what it is.

No one is hating on manning bro sef

U.S.M.C. TANKER
12-09-2010, 12:22 AM
No one is hating on manning bro sef

Meh, the hate is understandable. He is playing like Farve right now, which is not good, matter of fact, its shiet. Regardless of the cards stacking against him, for him to throw away 3 games, it's fcking sucks for the fans.

TAWS6
12-09-2010, 12:24 AM
Meh, the hate is understandable. He is playing like Farve right now, which is not good, matter of fact, its shiet. Regardless of the cards stacking against him, for him to throw away 3 games, it's fcking sucks for the fans.

hey i wouldnt wanna see him come back to foxborough. ravens scare me the most but peyton is not far behind

Sick96stang
12-09-2010, 12:43 AM
huh?


Frankly, I'm sick of the obvious fact that Brady is a better quarterback when it matters most, which is obvious and couldn't be by a greater margin. I'm sick of hearing that wins and championships are a team effort, used to belittle Brady against the propaganda machines; this argument is not only fallacious, but also irrelevant. Brady is the better quarterback, period. He is better by most statistical measures in nearly every situation.

He's sick of hearing wins and championships are a team effort... ummm that's exactly what they are. Does this guy think Brady does everything on the team or something? It's a completely valid argument as like said wins and championships are a team effort and for 2 of the Patriots 3 super bowls with Brady as QB, Brady played a much smaller role than the defense did. This is quite obvious by his post season stats in the first two seasons. You want to talk about fallacious that last sentence in there is a prime example. I could name off stats for years that Manning is better in than Brady.


I thought I would post a few interesting stats. I would argue that statistically, Brady is currently the best quarterback who ever played the game. He is pretty far better than Manning, if you break down the stats on an even playing field, rather than the longevity numbers, and Manning is supposedly the benchmark.

Passer Rating
Manning- 94.8
Brady- 94.7

Not quite sure how exactly he's coming about those QB rating #'s but lets take a practical/logical look at QB ratings. The best way to do this would be to only take seasons that the QB's played all 16 games. I'll include 2001 for Brady as well since he played 15 games which for anybody who is not a complete Brady nuthugger would see why it's logical to include this season as well.

Manning: 95.6 in 12 seasons
Brady: 93.0 in 8 seasons


Passer Rating Breakdown- Why Brady is better

Brady's stats are still better than Manning's, since interceptions have the highest correlation to winning %. Let's see what the stats would produce with both quarterbacks throwing 500 times in a season:

Brady- 318-500, 3700 yards, 27.5 TDs, 11 INTs
Manning- 325-500, 3800 yards, 27.5 TDs 14 INTs

The question would become, would you sacrifice 100 passing yards and seven completions for three less interceptions? I think the answer is obvious. Three interceptions over a full season would likely translate to an additional loss, if not two.

Again using only seasons all 16 games were played Manning averages 544 attempts per season while Brady averages 525 attempts per season. Why exactly would you choose to drop it down to 500 when 525 would be a more much practical # to use. Or better yet lets just give Brady the extra 19 attempts a year and then calculate the #'s. All the #'s below are giving Brady the additional 19 attempts per year and using only the years from above.

Yards/Season

Manning: 4,177
Brady: 3,934

If you'd like to know the additional 19 attempts on average adds 89 yards per year for Brady.

Comp %

Manning: 64.8
Brady: 63.3

TD/Season

Manning: 30.5
Brady: 29.1

I'm being generous with that # to Brady as I'm giving him an extra TD each season when most seasons the extra 19 attempts wouldn't have been enough to get him another TD based on completions and # of TD's.

INT/Season

Manning: 15
Brady: 12.8

I added .5 INT's to each season of Brady which might be a little off as on average it seems like those 19 attempts normally don't quite add half an INT per year.

Manning: 4177 yards, 64.8 comp %, 30.5 TDs, 15 INTs
Brady: 3934 yards, 63.3 comp %, 29.1 TDs, 12.8 INTs

In the end you just have to decide is 2 less INT's worth 243 yards, 1.5 comp %, 1 TD, and a 2.6 QB rating difference.


TD:INT Ratio

Brady- 2.45:1
Manning- 1.99:1

If you don't think this is a big discrepancy, do some research. This is basically the difference between Manning and an average quarterback on the other end.

Manning - 2.03:1
Brady - 2.27:1

Make of that what you will. Not nearly as big of a discrepancy as what he originally indicated.

Split Situations


This should prove beyond any doubt that Brady is better, and this doesn't even include the clutch factor.

No


Indoors:
Brady- 103.1
Manning- 98.6

Outdoors:
Brady- 93.8
Manning- 90.7

Cold (24-40 degrees):
Brady- 94.5
Manning- 85.0

Mild (41-60 degrees):
Brady- 95.7
Manning- 85.7

Rain
Brady- 95.1
Manning- 83.8

Wind
Brady- 95.1
Manning- 82.6

I'm not sure where he's getting these stats from but he's clearly either pulling bogus #'s or omitting certain #'s as QB ratings from above show Manning actually has the better QB rating overall so there is no way Brady plays better in every condition than Manning.



Defense

Here's how the Patriots and Colts have stacked up since the rivalry really began in 2001. I'm putting which team had the better defense based on points allowed.

'10- Colts
'09- Patriots
'08- Colts
'07- Colts (led NFL in fewest points allowed)
'06- Patriots (2nd in NFL)
'05- Colts (2nd in NFL)
'04- Patriots (2nd in NFL)
'03- Patriots (1st in NFL)
'02- Colts
'01- Patriots

Final Result- In ten seasons, the Colts defense has allowed fewer points five times. The Colts have had a top-2 scoring defense twice, while the Patriots have three times.

Regular season defensive stats are great and all but why don't we take a look at post season where defenses shine their brightest. After all one of Brady's major selling points is his post season wins and one of Manning's major down falls is his post season wins.

01: Patriots (2nd in NFL)
02: Pats didn't make playoff's and Colts ranked dead last at 41 PPG
03: Patriots (4th in NFL)
04: Patriots (2nd in NFL)
05: Patriots (1st in NFL)
06: Colts (2nd in NFL)
07: Patriots (2nd in NFL)
08: Pats didn't make playoff's and Colts were 6th
09: Colts (1st in NFL)

Finally tally:

Patriots: 5
Colts: 2


Pro Bowls/ First Round Draft Choices

Here's a list of pro bowl players that each quarterback has had at his disposal for skill positions.

Brady's Pro Bowl Players- Randy Moss* (2), Wes Welker (2), Troy Brown, Corey Dillon, total of 6.

Manning's Pro Bowl Players- Marvin Harrison* (8), Edgerrin James* (4), Reggie Wayne* (4), Marshall Faulk*, Dallas Clark*, Joseph Addai*, total of 19.

*First-round pick

I've made a post in here already about how the Patriots since 1998 have drafted 10 more WR/TE's than the Colts have and Colts have only selected 1 more WR/TE in the first round than the Pats have, while the Pats selected quite a few more in the second round. They also selected more in the third and fourth round as well. Also is this guy really trying to make a case based around something that Joe Schmoe can go vote on who knows absolutely nothing about football. Trying to make your case around pro bowl votes shows you're really reaching.

Sick96stang
12-09-2010, 12:55 AM
Manning got carried in his lone Super Bowl. He was average in the Super Bowl and bad in 2 of the 3 playoff games. In fact, he was downright horrid.

In Brady's first postseason, he was very average. Over his next 2 postseasons, he put up 10 TDs, 2 picks, and another rushing TD and had an overall passer rating of somewhere around 105(ish)

so yeah, Brady was along for the ride in his 2nd season as a Pro, but his 4th and 5th seasons, he was excellent

I guess if you call averaging .33 TDs, .33 INTs, 190 yards, and an 80 QB rating very average than yes he was. Call me crazy but to me that's not average. That's bad. While he wasn't hurting his team he wasn't helping them either and when your QB isn't helping your team that's bad.

Why would you combine the next 2 post seasons and not just look at each separately? He was nothing great in his second super bowl run either. He was 5 TD's, 2 INT's, and an 83.3 QB rating. I know his yardage was somewhere in the 200's and he had a pitiful comp %.

His third super bowl he was very good and lead his team to that victory.

I realize the truth hurts but if Brady had anything but a superb defense he only has 1 ring right now.

Sick96stang
12-09-2010, 01:02 AM
First round:
Manning: 3
Brady: 2

Second Round:
Manning: 1
Brady: 6

Third Round:
Manning: 2
Brady: 3

Fourth Round:
Manning: 2
Brady: 2

Fifth Round:
Manning: 2
Brady: 3

Sixth Round:
Manning: 2
Brady: 1

Seventh Round:
Manning: 0
Brady: 5

Overall:
Manning: 12
Brady: 22

Pats have drafted 10 more receiving options for Brady since 1998 than the Colts have for Manning since that same time. Manning has only received 1 additional receiving option from first round picks than Brady has. Brady has gotten 5 more second round picks, 1 more third round pick, 1 more 5th round pick, and 5 more 7th round picks.

**** just got real.


and as I said multiple times

1) Those "extra picks" were mostly later round picks
2) The Colts already had Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison and later, Dallas Clark

I mean seriously, why would you spend several more picks on a position you're already ridiculous fat in? A pair of 1st rounder WRs and a 1st rounder TE.

1) Take a good close look at that part in bold. Between the second and third round Brady received an additional 6 picks. That's a bigger discrepancy than the 7th round picks so I'm not quite sure how they were mostly in the later rounds.
2) Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark are included in this so I'm not quite sure why you keep saying they already had him. I started at 98. Wayne was drafted in 01 and Clark in 03. I chose 98 because that was the year Manning came into the league. I wasn't trying to tilt the table in Mannings favor by starting there. I have no idea who the Pats or Colts drafted in 96 and 97 (other than Harrison).

Well according to you that's what they do. I mean by your own admission the Colts just keep drafting players to keep Peypey happy and that's why he's always so good because he always has such great talent around him every year.

SpiderSense
12-09-2010, 01:54 AM
Posts ITT: 119

Sick96Stang posts: 28

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_VSrnkiWaqSQ/TMdBQsCZScI/AAAAAAAAAZI/r7M0LAXkxW0/s1600/forever+alone+face.png

gabe2gg
12-09-2010, 04:15 AM
lol at stang thinking the weather stats are bogus rofl

LOWTESTOSTERONE
12-09-2010, 05:21 AM
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i268/ecko979/tumblr_lc1z5dC6w11qclcbeo1_400.jpg


u mad?





http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i268/ecko979/tumblr_lc1z5dC6w11qclcbeo1_400-1.jpg[/QUOTE]

Greg1983
12-09-2010, 05:28 AM
lol at stang thinking the weather stats are bogus rofl

And showing off his elite math abilities.


I'm not sure where he's getting these stats from but he's clearly either pulling bogus #'s or omitting certain #'s as QB ratings from above show Manning actually has the better QB rating overall so there is no way Brady plays better in every condition than Manning.

Let's all take a look together.

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/8527/bradymanning.jpg

Greg1983
12-09-2010, 05:32 AM
Colts must be just really good at drafting then because Pats (at least at the WR/TE position) have spent more picks on Brady than the Colts have on Manning.

Good for them. Brady still spent just over 2 years of his 10 year career with a wide receiver as good as Harrison or Wayne.

kethnaab
12-09-2010, 06:11 AM
Regular season defensive stats are great and all but why don't we take a look at post season where defenses shine their brightest. After all one of Brady's major selling points is his post season wins and one of Manning's major down falls is his post season wins.

01: Patriots (2nd in NFL)
02: Pats didn't make playoff's and Colts ranked dead last at 41 PPG
03: Patriots (4th in NFL)
04: Patriots (2nd in NFL)
05: Patriots (1st in NFL)
06: Colts (2nd in NFL)
07: Patriots (2nd in NFL)
08: Pats didn't make playoff's and Colts were 6th
09: Colts (1st in NFL)

Finally tally:

Patriots: 5
Colts: 2


so are you saying that the Colts gave up more points in those postseasons?

Did you account for all of the points off of turnovers generated by Manning's interceptions? For example, you said the "Colts ranked dead last at 41 ppg", did you account for Manning going, what was it, 14 for 31, 137 yards, 0 TDs, 2 picks that season?


I guess if you call averaging .33 TDs, .33 INTs, 190 yards, and an 80 QB rating very average than yes he was. Call me crazy but to me that's not average. That's bad. While he wasn't hurting his team he wasn't helping them either and when your QB isn't helping your team that's bad.

we'll agree to disagree. If you aren't hurting or helping, then it's average, and Brady definitely helped his team the last few minutes of the Super Bowl when they needed him to.


Why would you combine the next 2 post seasons and not just look at each separately? He was nothing great in his second super bowl run either. He was 5 TD's, 2 INT's, and an 83.3 QB rating. I know his yardage was somewhere in the 200's and he had a pitiful comp %.

his 2nd Super Bowl season? You mean the one where he threw for 354 yards, 3 TDs, 1 pick, and had a passer rating over 100?

are you serious? Do you laugh to yourself while you're writing this? I'm beginning to think you are just trolling now.


I realize the truth hurts but if Brady had anything but a superb defense he only has 1 ring right now.

and if Manning had anything but a superb defense in 2006 he wouldn't have any rings to speak of, whatsoever.

0
none
nein
zilch
zippo

Ejjw18
12-09-2010, 06:17 AM
and if Manning had anything but a superb defense in 2006 he wouldn't have any rings to speak of, whatsoever.

0
none
nein
zilch
zippo

lol this.

rampagefc77
12-09-2010, 06:27 AM
and if Manning had anything but a superb defense in 2006 he wouldn't have any rings to speak of, whatsoever.

0
none
nein
zilch
zippo

I thought I remembered the defense being poor all regular season, but stepping up in the playoffs for indy. Could be wrong, long time ago.

Anyway, which QB performs better changes so often that these threads are pointless. Earlier this year, Manning was playing > Brady. These last 5 weeks Brady >>> Manning. Last year, Manning > Brady. The year before, Manning wins by default. The year before that, Brady >>> manning.

Changes like the wind. Both are still great.

Ejjw18
12-09-2010, 06:28 AM
I thought I remembered the defense being poor all regular season, but stepping up in the playoffs for indy. Could be wrong, long time ago.

Anyway, which QB performs better changes so often that these threads are pointless. Earlier this year, Manning was playing > Brady. These last 5 weeks Brady >>> Manning. Last year, Manning > Brady. The year before, Manning wins by default. The year before that, Brady >>> manning.

Changes like the wind. Both are still great.

those years Manning had better stats than brady, but he still only has 1 ring soooo...

rampagefc77
12-09-2010, 06:33 AM
those years Manning had better stats than brady, but he still only has 1 ring soooo...

Im not arguing for Manning, just bring up some points.

So in the year that Brady broke all the records, he wasn't the best QB in the league because eli won the SB? Doesnt Manning have a more recent win in the SB than brady? A more recent SB appearance than Brady (2006 vs. 2004 was Brady's last).

Again, not arguing for Manning, but how anyone can state 1 QB is clearly better than another when both have been dominant for quite some time...

Ejjw18
12-09-2010, 06:35 AM
Again, not arguing for Manning, but how anyone can state 1 QB is clearly better than another when both have been dominant for quite some time...

read through the whole thread.

rampagefc77
12-09-2010, 06:42 AM
read through the whole thread.

I didn't do that so Ill take your word for it. Jumping in at the end is never a good idea.

Ejjw18
12-09-2010, 06:44 AM
I didn't do that so Ill take your word for it. Jumping in at the end is never a good idea.

it's a good debate but Keth clearly makes great posts explaining why Brady is superior.

Sick96stang
12-09-2010, 09:25 AM
And showing off his elite math abilities.



Let's all take a look together.

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/8527/bradymanning.jpg

Thanks for proving my point that they were omitting certain #'s. All they did was just choose all the ones that Brady was best in and leave out the ones that Manning was best in.

Sick96stang
12-09-2010, 09:33 AM
so are you saying that the Colts gave up more points in those postseasons?

Did you account for all of the points off of turnovers generated by Manning's interceptions? For example, you said the "Colts ranked dead last at 41 ppg", did you account for Manning going, what was it, 14 for 31, 137 yards, 0 TDs, 2 picks that season?

Unless it's a pick 6 it falls on the defense. Turnovers by the QB don't always account for points for the other team. Also the one you chose the Patriots didn't even play in the post season so your point is irrelevant. If you'd like to go through and find any pick 6's by Manning in those post seasons and subtract them from the defensive statistics be my guest. I don't it will change any of them.


his 2nd Super Bowl season? You mean the one where he threw for 354 yards, 3 TDs, 1 pick, and had a passer rating over 100?

Once again check out that word in bold closely. You're referring to the super bowl game, not the season. Rather than just looking at the super bowl it makes much more sense to look at his whole body of work that post season to see if they should have been even been there and once again if not for a superb defense Pats probably don't even make it to the super bowl that year.


are you serious? Do you laugh to yourself while you're writing this? I'm beginning to think you are just trolling now.

Do you even read what I write or you do you just fabricate things as well and see what you want to see?




and if Manning had anything but a superb defense in 2006 he wouldn't have any rings to speak of, whatsoever.

0
none
nein
zilch
zippo

I agree though I'm not quite sure why you keep saying this as I've never disagreed with this and have said this same thing multiple times. It is you who can not admit that Brady should not have 2 of his rings if for for superb defensive play.

kethnaab
12-09-2010, 09:40 AM
Unless it's a pick 6 it falls on the defense.

so if the QB throws a pick that the defense returns to the 17 yard line, and the defense is forced to defend a 17-yard field and they give up a TD, it's the defense's fault?

http://i40.tinypic.com/2zgc9li.gif


Also the one you chose the Patriots didn't even play in the post season so your point is irrelevant.

...

WTF does the Patriots defense have to do with Manning throwing picks? *blinks*


You're referring to the super bowl game, not the season. Rather than just looking at the super bowl it makes much more sense to look at his whole body of work that post season to see if they should have been even been there and once again if not for a superb defense Pats probably don't even make it to the super bowl that year.

actually, truth be told, the Patriots really need to thank Manning for throwing 4 picks in the AFCCG. That was very helpful for their cause.


I agree though I'm not quite sure why you keep saying this as I've never disagreed with this and have said this same thing multiple times. It is you who can not admit that Brady should not have 2 of his rings if for for superb defensive play.

if "superb defensive play" = "intercepting Peyton Manning a bunch" then I suppose I can agree with you.

Greg1983
12-09-2010, 09:42 AM
Thanks for proving my point that they were omitting certain #'s. All they did was just choose all the ones that Brady was best in and leave out the ones that Manning was best in.

Well Brady is better both indoors and outdoors, so I'll go with him.

kethnaab
12-09-2010, 09:49 AM
I thought I remembered the defense being poor all regular season, but stepping up in the playoffs for indy. Could be wrong, long time ago.

that was absolutely correct. In fact, it was assumed that the Colts' defense was SO bad that they would have almost no chance in the playoffs, but then they went full retard and played out of their minds, and their RBs stepped up bigtime while Manning played atrociously, although to his credit, he played well against the Patriots when it counted


Anyway, which QB performs better changes so often that these threads are pointless. Earlier this year, Manning was playing > Brady. These last 5 weeks Brady >>> Manning. Last year, Manning > Brady. The year before, Manning wins by default. The year before that, Brady >>> manning.

Changes like the wind. Both are still great.

that's a pretty solid statement and quite reasonable. I think they're both outstanding, but it seems that Peypey lovers just absolutely blind themselves to anything he can possibly do wrong. When the Colts play well, it's because of Peypey. When they lose, it's because of injuries/rest of team/the sun was in their eyes/whatever.

fballer12
12-09-2010, 10:05 AM
If you want to know why the pats are so great, read "management secrets of the new england patriots"...it has very little to do with brady.

Manning on the other hand is the sole reason the pats are good, and on the way has accumulated the best stats of any qb in history, while also winning a ring by himself, while the patriots won 3 as an entire organization.

Put manning on any team in the league and he has a ring by now...maybe even more, since he was drafted by a 3-13 colts team. Put brady on another team. Probably doesn't have one, if he's even a starter at all.

Huse
12-09-2010, 10:22 AM
If you want to know why the pats are so great, read "management secrets of the new england patriots"...it has very little to do with brady.

Manning on the other hand is the sole reason the pats are good, and on the way has accumulated the best stats of any qb in history, while also winning a ring by himself, while the patriots won 3 as an entire organization.

Put manning on any team in the league and he has a ring by now...maybe even more, since he was drafted by a 3-13 colts team. Put brady on another team. Probably doesn't have one, if he's even a starter at all.
Peyton nuthugger ideology/10

camaleom
12-09-2010, 10:53 AM
If you want to know why the pats are so great, read "management secrets of the new england patriots"...it has very little to do with brady.

Manning on the other hand is the sole reason the pats are good, and on the way has accumulated the best stats of any qb in history, while also winning a ring by himself, while the patriots won 3 as an entire organization.

Put manning on any team in the league and he has a ring by now...maybe even more, since he was drafted by a 3-13 colts team. Put brady on another team. Probably doesn't have one, if he's even a starter at all.

let's put TB on the market for a trade...

I'm sure your team will send all their draft picks for the next five year, plus your momma without hesitation LOL

MORON

btw: negged

TAWS6
12-09-2010, 11:27 AM
Manning on the other hand is the sole reason the pats are good.

..how bout no

camaleom
12-09-2010, 12:16 PM
Kethnaab is blind an unreasonable...

He can't see that Tom Brady has better weapons:

- Branch "nobody-injury prone" as number 1 rec
- Wes "broken" ligament Walker
- 2 Rookies (TE) one is 21, and the other one look mentally retarded
- 2 Manlets as RB (one being white [no racist])
- 1 Deep treat with butter hands (Tate)
- 1 Prow-B OL took half of the season Off

are way way way better than PM weapons...

c'mon Kethnaab you are legally blind...

LOLOLOLOL

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=ApkL9GiK0QUVSpefGLKCBCQ5nYcB?slug=dw-vickbradymvp120810

"Outside of ever reliable Wes Welker(notes), Brady’s top receivers are now a pair of rookie tight ends (Aaron Hernandez(notes), Rob Gronkowski(notes)), ninth-year veteran Deion Branch(notes), who’s averaged 3.6 touchdowns a season for his career, 5-foot-8 utility player Danny Woodhead(notes), whom the Jets cut in September, and wideout Brandon Tate(notes), who entered the season without a career reception. The running game is anchored by BenJarvus Green-Ellis(notes), who gained a grand total of 114 rushing yards last season.

Seriously, those are the “weapons” surrounding Tom Brady.
"

kethnaab
12-09-2010, 12:24 PM
Put brady on another team. Probably doesn't have one, if he's even a starter at all.

ahahaha....yeah, gonna have to toss some red your way once I recharge. Stupidity like that simply can't be allowed to avoid a beating

Huse
12-09-2010, 12:33 PM
sickstang what happened to that thread where you were spouting how the pats were a solid #3 team behind the jets and i was such a dumb and arrogant pats fan for not parroting what espn/cbs/nbc analysts ranked them?

tool

still think the pats aren't the best team in the league?

rampagefc77
12-09-2010, 12:42 PM
sickstang what happened to that thread where you were spouting how the pats were a solid #3 team behind the jets and i was such a dumb and arrogant pats fan for not parroting what espn/cbs/nbc analysts ranked them?

tool

still think the pats aren't the best team in the league?

Pats are the best team in the league if their defense keeps playing like they do. IF they revert back to their play which put them last in many categories, it could be a long playoffs if they face elite QBs.

See the packers last year, their defense was actually ranked high adn got TORCHED by elite QBs throughout the league, and a solid 51 points given up in the playoffs. Not saying that will happen to the patriots, but defense is huge come playoff time. your young players need to keep producing.

No clear cut #1 team in the league, but the pats are gonna be tough to beat down the stretch.

Huse
12-09-2010, 01:03 PM
Pats are the best team in the league if their defense keeps playing like they do. IF they revert back to their play which put them last in many categories, it could be a long playoffs if they face elite QBs.

See the packers last year, their defense was actually ranked high adn got TORCHED by elite QBs throughout the league, and a solid 51 points given up in the playoffs. Not saying that will happen to the patriots, but defense is huge come playoff time. your young players need to keep producing.

No clear cut #1 team in the league, but the pats are gonna be tough to beat down the stretch.

i'd say the pats are 1a and the falcons are 1b or vice versa. nobody else deserves to be in the discussion at this point in time until either team loses

it's pretty impossible to predict how the pats defense will play but they've been pretty consistent all year - give up 800 yards but get multiple turnovers throughout the game

plus I think it's fair to assume the defense will only get better as they have been all season as they get more experience - look at the defensive snaps against the jets

CB Kyle Arrington -- 65 of 65 (age 24)
LB Jerod Mayo -- 65 of 65 (age 24)
S Brandon Meriweather -- 64 of 65 (age 26)
CB Devin McCourty -- 62 of 65 (age 23)
LB/DE Jermaine Cunningham -- 61 of 65 (age 22)
DL Vince Wilfork -- 51 of 65 (age 29)
DL Gerard Warren -- 45 of 65 (age 32)
CB Darius Butler -- 42 of 65 (age 24)
OLB/DE Tully Banta-Cain -- 40 of 65 (age 30)
LB Gary Guyton -- 39 of 65 (age 25)
S James Sanders -- 36 of 65 (age 27)
S Jarrad Page -- 28 of 65 (age 26)
S Patrick Chung -- 26 of 65 (age 23)
DL Ron Brace -- 25 of 65 (age 23)
LB Brandon Spikes -- 23 of 65 (age 23)
LB/DE Rob Ninkovich -- 22 of 65 (age 26)
DL Kyle Love -- 14 of 65 (age 24)
LB Dane Fletcher -- 7 of 65 (age 24)

Also Myron Pryor (age 24) and Mike Wright (age 28) who are the best pass rushers were injured.

young defense is young

gabe2gg
12-09-2010, 01:14 PM
Thanks for proving my point that they were omitting certain #'s. All they did was just choose all the ones that Brady was best in and leave out the ones that Manning was best in.

manning has only a higher rating in hot weather and brady dominates him everywhere else



















































stang u mad?

fballer12
12-09-2010, 07:23 PM
let's put TB on the market for a trade...

I'm sure your team will send all their draft picks for the next five year, plus your momma without hesitation LOL

MORON

btw: negged

Yeah, I'm sure my bucs are going to give up all their picks in the next 5 drafts for an aging brady, when they have josh freeman.


Oh and I'm negged...you got me buddy...why don't you go get some fresh air

iamgenus
12-09-2010, 07:28 PM
If you want to know why the pats are so great, read "management secrets of the new england patriots"...it has very little to do with brady.

Manning on the other hand is the sole reason the pats are good, and on the way has accumulated the best stats of any qb in history, while also winning a ring by himself, while the patriots won 3 as an entire organization.

Put manning on any team in the league and he has a ring by now...maybe even more, since he was drafted by a 3-13 colts team. Put brady on another team. Probably doesn't have one, if he's even a starter at all.

Good point on the first one....throwing TDs to the other team is a big help.

Second...words can't even begin to describe how stupid you are.

Sick96stang
12-09-2010, 07:41 PM
so if the QB throws a pick that the defense returns to the 17 yard line, and the defense is forced to defend a 17-yard field and they give up a TD, it's the defense's fault?

On the stat sheet yes it does. Even then feel free to go through and find all of Manning's INT that were returned to inside the red zone and subtract them. I'll wait.



WTF does the Patriots defense have to do with Manning throwing picks? *blinks*

All I said was the season you chose the Patriots didn't even make the playoff's. The discussion was about which defense plays better in the post season and for some reason you chose to single out one of the years where they couldn't even be compared since the Patriots didn't even make the playoff's.


actually, truth be told, the Patriots really need to thank Manning for throwing 4 picks in the AFCCG. That was very helpful for their cause.

....

That was completely irrelevant to anything I said in there. We were talking about Brady and his stats in his second post season and you for some reason talk about Manning throwing 4 picks in the AFCCG. Brady had two mediocre at best games in his second post season and then a great super bowl.



if "superb defensive play" = "intercepting Peyton Manning a bunch" then I suppose I can agree with you.

Yep holding one of the highest powered offenses that year to 14 points I would think would certainly count as being superb defense. We sure know Brady didn't do **** to win that game for them. He had a world beating 76.1 QB rating that game.

Erik2806
12-09-2010, 07:44 PM
If you want to know why the pats are so great, read "management secrets of the new england patriots"...it has very little to do with brady.

Manning on the other hand is the sole reason the pats are good, and on the way has accumulated the best stats of any qb in history, while also winning a ring by himself, while the patriots won 3 as an entire organization.

Put manning on any team in the league and he has a ring by now...maybe even more, since he was drafted by a 3-13 colts team. Put brady on another team. Probably doesn't have one, if he's even a starter at all.

p7w64fbqYQY

fballer12
12-09-2010, 07:48 PM
Good point on the first one....throwing TDs to the other team is a big help.

Second...words can't even begin to describe how stupid you are.

okay, so let's pretend bledsoe never got injured....would brady have ever gotten a chance? Maybe for a game or two later in his career when his team was either losing or winning by a lot...but most 6th round picks are out of the league within a couple of years anyway.

If you think I'm implying that if he was a free agent right now, and he went to another team, that he wouldn't be a starter, than you're an idiot. That isn't even close to what i'm saying. He's a top 5 QB of all time. What I was saying, is if he had been drafted to another team, who knows if he would've ever gotten a chance. There's no confusion about whether peyton would get a chance. His talent sticks out. period. That's why he was the #1 overall pick. Brady got drafted into a great situation, with a HOF coach, and the starting QB happened to incur an injury. If he was drafted to another team? None of us might even know who brady is.

Sick96stang
12-09-2010, 07:55 PM
Well Brady is better both indoors and outdoors, so I'll go with him.

Yet Manning has a higher overall QB rating so what do they play in space as well or something?

TAWS6
12-09-2010, 07:58 PM
Brady is playing better right now, and thats all that matters this season. Pls let this thread dieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee haha (serious)

Greg1983
12-09-2010, 08:02 PM
Yet Manning has a higher overall QB rating so what do they play in space as well or something?

The numbers are right there.

Outdoors: Brady 93.8, Manning 90.7
Indoors: Brady 103.1, Manning 98.6

Do you really not understand the math? Both of them do better indoors than outdoors, because the conditions are easier. Manning, however, plays a much higher percentage of his games indoors. Making his overall higher. This is seriously like 7th grade math here.

kethnaab
12-09-2010, 08:04 PM
On the stat sheet yes it does.

so, take for example, the last postseason game the Panthers played. They lost 33-13. Are you saying their defense played poorly because they gave up 33 points? I ask because Delhomme threw several picks that game, but since none of them were returned for TDs, it's all on the defense?



All I said was the season you chose the Patriots didn't even make the playoff's. The discussion was about which defense plays better in the post season and for some reason you chose to single out one of the years where they couldn't even be compared since the Patriots didn't even make the playoff's.

*stares blankly*

you're doing this on purpose, aren't you?



We were talking about Brady and his stats in his second post season and you for some reason talk about Manning throwing 4 picks in the AFCCG. Brady had two mediocre at best games in his second post season and then a great super bowl.

we're discussing Manning vs. Brady. You criticize Brady for throwing a TD and a pick, I criticize Manning for throwing 4 picks. That's relevant.


Yep holding one of the highest powered offenses that year to 14 points I would think would certainly count as being superb defense. We sure know Brady didn't do **** to win that game for them. He had a world beating 76.1 QB rating that game.

he didn't have to do $hit. Manning threw 4 picks.

kethnaab
12-09-2010, 08:10 PM
If you think I'm implying that if he was a free agent right now, and he went to another team, that he wouldn't be a starter, than you're an idiot.

THAN you're an idiot.

irony.

it's not that he's an idiot, it's that you need to learn to explain yourself better


Brady got drafted into a great situation, with a HOF coach

o'rly?

that HoF coach before Brady got tossed from Cleveland and was a career 41-57 before Brady became his QB, and a 5-13 record with New England before Brady started a game.

Interesting, really...


The numbers are right there.

Outdoors: Brady 93.8, Manning 90.7
Indoors: Brady 103.1, Manning 98.6

Do you really not understand the math? Both of them do better indoors than outdoors, because the conditions are easier. Manning, however, plays a much higher percentage of his games indoors. Making his overall higher. This is seriously like 7th grade math here.

he's doing it on purpose. I"m convinced. I'm done with this thread (again)...but I swear, arguing with stang is like driving past a really bad wreck or walking past a morbidly obese person. You want to turn away but you just can't help it...

gabe2gg
12-09-2010, 08:10 PM
Yet Manning has a higher overall QB rating so what do they play in space as well or something?

manning has played his entire career in a dome... You can't be cereal...

kethnaab
12-09-2010, 08:13 PM
manning has played his entire career in a dome... You can't be cereal...

like I said, some of the things he's posted have been so painfully asinine, I honestly think he's giggling his head off reading the replies, because he's trolling the ever-livin' $hit out of us

fballer12
12-09-2010, 08:42 PM
THAN you're an idiot.

irony.

it's not that he's an idiot, it's that you need to learn to explain yourself better



o'rly?

that HoF coach before Brady got tossed from Cleveland and was a career 41-57 before Brady became his QB, and a 5-13 record with New England before Brady started a game.

Interesting, really...

.


I explained it quite clearly...anybody who thought I meant anything other than if he had been on a different team all along than he might not be a starter right now needs to unplug their keyboard. Oh BTW, thanks for the negs! Always great to misconstrue things and neg people.

Oh, and you obviously have no idea about bellichick on the browns. The browns owner was playing the al davis/jerry jones role, and was getting too involved in the coaching and management of the team. When bellichick went to the patriots, craft told him that he had full control of the team, and that even if he did poorly his first season, he trusted him. Naturally, bellichick's first year the team did poorly, because he enherited a terrible team, with the only all stars being bledsoe and a disgruntled glenn, both of which he got rid of within two years. He rebuilt for a year, started putting his own stamp on his team and finally being able to coach and manage a team the way he wanted to, and they took off. He went 11-5 with cassel, and it isn't a coincidence. Everyone thought that when brady went down the sky would fall.....nope...a guy who hadn't started a game since high school took the team to a respectable 11-5 season. He plugs people in and wins, including at QB.


edit: and it's funny you just negged me, claiming that I said brady wouldn't be a starter on another team, even after you knew differently. too funny. Go outside and do something

avokshi2000
12-09-2010, 08:51 PM
Yet Manning has a higher overall QB rating so what do they play in space as well or something?

manning has a .1 career passer rating better than brady. anyway the reason why manning career rating is better because he has played at least 50 percent of games in a dome. meanwhile brad has played a much smaller amount of games. (in a dome)

anyway you are a moron because obviously you have no knowledge of how stats work

iamgenus
12-09-2010, 09:19 PM
I explained it quite clearly...anybody who thought I meant anything other than if he had been on a different team all along than he might not be a starter right now needs to unplug their keyboard. Oh BTW, thanks for the negs! Always great to misconstrue things and neg people.

Oh, and you obviously have no idea about bellichick on the browns. The browns owner was playing the al davis/jerry jones role, and was getting too involved in the coaching and management of the team. When bellichick went to the patriots, craft told him that he had full control of the team, and that even if he did poorly his first season, he trusted him. Naturally, bellichick's first year the team did poorly, because he enherited a terrible team, with the only all stars being bledsoe and a disgruntled glenn, both of which he got rid of within two years. He rebuilt for a year, started putting his own stamp on his team and finally being able to coach and manage a team the way he wanted to, and they took off. He went 11-5 with cassel, and it isn't a coincidence. Everyone thought that when brady went down the sky would fall.....nope...a guy who hadn't started a game since high school took the team to a respectable 11-5 season. He plugs people in and wins, including at QB.


edit: and it's funny you just negged me, claiming that I said brady wouldn't be a starter on another team, even after you knew differently. too funny. Go outside and do something

First of all...i didn't read all that garbage.

Second...stop crying about being negged for stupidity.

third...if you say "Put brady on another team. Probably doesn't have one, if he's even a starter at all" and don't add "to begin his career" then people will think you mean right NOW.

Don't get all pissy because you sounded like a retard and got called for it.

But even if you wrote that you're still being a retard. You can't say Brady wouldn't have gotten his chance eventually. At the time pats fans were all about Michael Bishop taking snaps from Bledsoe just because of the way he played in pre-season. Brady was moved up from 4th string in his rookie year to being the #2 guy.

Pure speculation by you that he wouldn't have done anything. Talent rises to the top in this league. Plenty of guys get a shot no matter where they're drafted or not drafted. Joe Montana was a 3rd rounder. Kurt Warner wasn't drafted. Jamarcus Russell was #1 overall.

And you're also an idiot for the Matt Cassel comment. They went from an almost perfect season and history making offense to missing the playoffs with Cassel at qb.

The "it's the scheme" excuse is played out and retarded. Have we seen Peyton Manning in another scheme since he came into the league? He's had everything handed to him on a platter in Indy. No coaching turnovers, they pamper him by constantly adding offense early. Hell he finally gets some injuries on offense and throws 11 picks in a span of 3 games. He's still a great QB but let's not act like he's God's gift to QBs while Brady is just a system guy because he wasn't drafted #1 overall.

fballer12
12-10-2010, 08:23 AM
peyton was higher on the nfl network top 100 list for a reason>brady/thread.jpg

Greg1983
12-10-2010, 08:36 AM
The NFL Network employs Matt Millen as a commentator.

iamgenus
12-10-2010, 08:38 AM
peyton was higher on the nfl network top 100 list for a reason>brady/thread.jpg

you're srs right?

iamgenus
12-10-2010, 08:39 AM
The NFL Network employs Matt Millen as a commentator.

lmao...this^

fballer12
12-10-2010, 08:51 AM
The NFL Network employs Matt Millen as a commentator.

the people who did the list are nfl films....nfl films is as integral and a storied part of the National Football League as anything. Who they employ for talking heads, and than people like steve sabol are completely different.

iamgenus
12-10-2010, 09:02 AM
the people who did the list are nfl films....nfl films is as integral and a storied part of the National Football League as anything. Who they employ for talking heads, and than people like steve sabol are completely different.

lmao...you really were serious huh?

Best 2 arguments ever.

1. Manning was drafted #1 overall, Brady was a 6th round pick. Clearly Manning >>>>>>>> Brady

2. Manning was higher on the top 100 list. Clearly Manning >>>>>>> Brady


That list is just ranking by a few people. Steve Young is #81 on the list yet he's better than many players listed a head of him.

fballer12
12-10-2010, 09:38 AM
lmao...you really were serious huh?

Best 2 arguments ever.

1. Manning was drafted #1 overall, Brady was a 6th round pick. Clearly Manning >>>>>>>> Brady

2. Manning was higher on the top 100 list. Clearly Manning >>>>>>> Brady


That list is just ranking by a few people. Steve Young is #81 on the list yet he's better than many players listed a head of him.

Yeah, because anybody made the argument that brady isn't as good because he was a 6th round pick...you obviously just thought up that argument yourself...Because what I said, is that manning's talent sticks out, which is why he was a #1 overall pick. Brady's doesn't as much when he's not seeing the field, which Is why if it wasn't for the injury he might not have gotten the chance. Coming out he had a weak arm, was slow, and inexperienced, hence why he was a 6th rounder. Nobody knew how talented he was until he saw the field. With Manning, there's not even a chance of mistaking him for someone not talented. He has all the tools. This argument was only brought up relating to why brady might never have gotten the chance if he was drafted to a different team. It had nothing to do with the brady vs manning and who's better.

And secondly, no one should take that list as gospel. There's nothing I hate more than when people take things like power rankings and the opinions of talking heads seriously. However, to try to say that steve sabol and their panel doesn't know what they're talking about, or that your opinion holds more weight, is ridiculous. Steve Sabol knows everything about every good football player 1930's-2010. He knows more football in one brain cell than you could ever dream of knowing. He's in the hall of fame when it comes to looking at the game from the outside in. His dad invented the most storied company in sports history. But w/e, Iamgenus knows better

Greg1983
12-10-2010, 10:14 AM
And secondly, no one should take that list as gospel.

Yet you're using it as blind proof that Peyton is better.

Sick96stang
12-10-2010, 10:48 AM
sickstang what happened to that thread where you were spouting how the pats were a solid #3 team behind the jets and i was such a dumb and arrogant pats fan for not parroting what espn/cbs/nbc analysts ranked them?

tool

still think the pats aren't the best team in the league?

No you were dumb and arrogant Pats fan because at that time you said anybody who thinks the Pats aren't the best team in the NFL is a complete retard. Last time I checked there's still another team out there who is 10-2, who also has beat some pretty good teams at home and on the road. So even now if somebody wanted to call the Falcons the best team in the NFL it would not classify them as a retard like you think.

If Pats defense continues to play like they did in the Jets game, they absolutely are. If not no they are not.

fballer12
12-10-2010, 10:49 AM
Yet you're using it as blind proof that Peyton is better.

lol no, there's plenty of proof that manning is better. The fact that he's higher on a list made by some of the most knowledgeable people in the sports industry is just icing on the cake.

Not to mention, the fact that he'll most likely be #1 overall the next time that list is made, says that much more.

Sick96stang
12-10-2010, 10:50 AM
i'd say the pats are 1a and the falcons are 1b or vice versa. nobody else deserves to be in the discussion at this point in time until either team loses


LOL before the Jets game you said anybody who didn't think the Patriots were the best team in the NFL is a complete retard. Now that the Patriots beat the Jets 45-3 and the Falcons beat the Bucs by 4 your saying the Falcons are equal to them... strong logic there. I guess we should look at the bright side and at least you're not being a complete retard anymore and actually giving some other team credit for being good.

Sick96stang
12-10-2010, 10:54 AM
The numbers are right there.

Outdoors: Brady 93.8, Manning 90.7
Indoors: Brady 103.1, Manning 98.6

Do you really not understand the math? Both of them do better indoors than outdoors, because the conditions are easier. Manning, however, plays a much higher percentage of his games indoors. Making his overall higher. This is seriously like 7th grade math here.

Yep the #'s are right there and Manning has a higher overall QB rating. Brady plays better outdoors and in worse weather conditions, I've never denied that but Manning plays better overall. Maybe if Brady played in a dome his QB rating would be higher but that is all conjecture and speculation.

Clide Whit
12-10-2010, 10:58 AM
lol at you guys getting caught in the Sick96stang vortex, brb having to read and write essays every day to just prove some dopey point that the other person will just not read.

NavyRoll
12-10-2010, 10:59 AM
Brady > Manning

That is all.

Sick96stang
12-10-2010, 11:01 AM
so, take for example, the last postseason game the Panthers played. They lost 33-13. Are you saying their defense played poorly because they gave up 33 points? I ask because Delhomme threw several picks that game, but since none of them were returned for TDs, it's all on the defense?

You think in the post game the coach or the defense was blaming the picks by the QB on why they gave up 33 points?




*stares blankly*

you're doing this on purpose, aren't you?

I've been wondering the same thing about you. I mean really I said season and you for some reason decided to talk about the one game. I also posted all the stats for draft picks by both teams and and then you said most of the discrepancy draft picks from later rounds when all the #'s were right there to prove that wasn't the case.



we're discussing Manning vs. Brady. You criticize Brady for throwing a TD and a pick, I criticize Manning for throwing 4 picks. That's relevant.

Difference being nobody criticizes Brady for his poor post season play ever including yourself. But you sure jump on Manning's poor post season play real quick. You know what a double standard is?



he didn't have to do $hit. Manning threw 4 picks.

Thanks for proving that it was even more pathetic by Brady. Manning gave them 4 more possessions than they should have had and Brady still sucked. Also you talk as if that game was a blow out or something with the Brady didn't have to do ****. The Patriots won by 10 it wasn't even close to a blow out.

Sick96stang
12-10-2010, 11:04 AM
manning has played his entire career in a dome... You can't be cereal...

I didn't realize it was Manning's fault he played in a dome. Exactly how much of his QB rating should be deducted because he plays in a dome or how much should we add on to Brady's QB rating because he doesn't.

Sick96stang
12-10-2010, 11:06 AM
manning has a .1 career passer rating better than brady. anyway the reason why manning career rating is better because he has played at least 50 percent of games in a dome. meanwhile brad has played a much smaller amount of games. (in a dome)

anyway you are a moron because obviously you have no knowledge of how stats work

You know what conjecture and speculation is? Because you're an expert at it.

Sick96stang
12-10-2010, 11:07 AM
The NFL Network employs Matt Millen as a commentator.

HOF QB's choose Manning over Brady 15:2

Sick96stang
12-10-2010, 11:09 AM
lmao...you really were serious huh?

Best 2 arguments ever.

1. Manning was drafted #1 overall, Brady was a 6th round pick. Clearly Manning >>>>>>>> Brady

2. Manning was higher on the top 100 list. Clearly Manning >>>>>>> Brady


That list is just ranking by a few people. Steve Young is #81 on the list yet he's better than many players listed a head of him.

Kethnaab loves to use that logic in point 1 not for the purpose of saying Manning > Brady though obviously.

A few people who have a lot more clout in regards to NFL knowledge than anybody on this forum.

kethnaab
12-10-2010, 11:33 AM
peyton was higher on the nfl network top 100 list for a reason>brady/thread.jpg

ok, well if I negged you mistakenly before, you earned it with the above comment


manning's talent sticks out, which is why he was a #1 overall pick. Brady's doesn't as much when he's not seeing the field, which Is why if it wasn't for the injury he might not have gotten the chance. Coming out he had a weak arm, was slow, and inexperienced, hence why he was a 6th rounder. Nobody knew how talented he was until he saw the field

*blinks slowly*

wait, are you being serious or just screwing around. You just said that "Brady's talent doesn't stick out as much when he's not seeing the field"

Now I'm sure you mean something useful with that. Perhaps if you restated it or something, I'd get what you were saying, because it is chock full of "falling from an airplane doesn't hurt, it's the landing that hurts"


lol at you guys getting caught in the Sick96stang vortex, brb having to read and write essays every day to just prove some dopey point that the other person will just not read.

yep. I put him on ignore. He's either trolling like mad or he has serious ADD issues. Seeing 8 consecutive posts that read "this message is hidden because Sick96stang is on your ignore list" bolsters my decision to put him on ignore.

it's not about his disagreement or agreement. It's about his consistent tangential trips that are irrelevant to the discussion at hand, simply for the purpose of nitpicking small points. Dude is swimming with red herrings and straw men

It ends up not even being a discussion with a logical conclusion, it ends up as an argument for the sake of arguing. Not worth the headache.

Greg1983
12-10-2010, 11:36 AM
I didn't realize it was Manning's fault he played in a dome. Exactly how much of his QB rating should be deducted because he plays in a dome or how much should we add on to Brady's QB rating because he doesn't.

No you should compare how they do in similar situations.

Situation 1: in a dome. Brady's is higher.
Situation 2: outdoors. Brady's is higher.

Tricky I know. Are you still confused by how Manning can have a higher overall rating?

Sick96stang
12-10-2010, 11:59 AM
No you should compare how they do in similar situations.

Situation 1: in a dome. Brady's is higher.
Situation 2: outdoors. Brady's is higher.

Tricky I know. Are you still confused by how Manning can have a higher overall rating?

Situation 3: overall. Manning's is higher.

That's all I really need to see.

Greg1983
12-10-2010, 12:02 PM
That doesn't answer the question.

Fine. You want a single number so any simpleton can rank it? How about this.

[(QB Rating indoors) + (QB Rating outdoors)]/2

Looks fair to me.

Greg1983
12-10-2010, 12:03 PM
Situation 3: overall. Manning's is higher.

That's all I really need to see.

Then you agree that Rodgers = GOAT. I'm down.

Sick96stang
12-10-2010, 12:07 PM
Then you agree that Rodgers = GOAT. I'm down.

Rodgers is certainly very good. Lets wait till he's played at least as many years as Brady though then we'll revisit who has the higher QB rating.

iamgenus
12-10-2010, 12:16 PM
Yeah, because anybody made the argument that brady isn't as good because he was a 6th round pick...you obviously just thought up that argument yourself...Because what I said, is that manning's talent sticks out, which is why he was a #1 overall pick. Brady's doesn't as much when he's not seeing the field, which Is why if it wasn't for the injury he might not have gotten the chance. Coming out he had a weak arm, was slow, and inexperienced, hence why he was a 6th rounder. Nobody knew how talented he was until he saw the field. With Manning, there's not even a chance of mistaking him for someone not talented. He has all the tools. This argument was only brought up relating to why brady might never have gotten the chance if he was drafted to a different team. It had nothing to do with the brady vs manning and who's better.

And secondly, no one should take that list as gospel. There's nothing I hate more than when people take things like power rankings and the opinions of talking heads seriously. However, to try to say that steve sabol and their panel doesn't know what they're talking about, or that your opinion holds more weight, is ridiculous. Steve Sabol knows everything about every good football player 1930's-2010. He knows more football in one brain cell than you could ever dream of knowing. He's in the hall of fame when it comes to looking at the game from the outside in. His dad invented the most storied company in sports history. But w/e, Iamgenus knows better

I know a Brady hater who has lived off that argument for many years and yours happened to ring VERY close to that. You argument does essentially come down to the fact that Brady wouldn't have gotten a chance to play and would've wasted away because he was a 6th round pick. Manning however was obviously a stud from the get go because he was #1 overall and he has all the tools.

Do I really need to list all of the guys who have gone high in the draft and did absolutely nothing in the league?

As for your love for Steve Sabol...good for you. Unfortunately he's still one man. Just because he's been around longer doesn't mean his opinion is fact - which is essentially your argument. You cannot compare players like that. Especially since their careers aren't over yet. Using the list as to why Manning is better than Brady just makes you look like a fcking moron. I would at least get where you're coming from if you tried another reason.

I personally like Tom Brady more because of where he came from. I like guys who earn the chance to play and do something great with it and aren't handed it just because they were drafted #1 overall. I think Tom Brady has grown as a qb and while Peyton Manning is a terrific quarterback I do think for whatever reason he just doesn't perform the same when January rolls around. You want to talk about an ideal situation for a qb? Look no further than Peyton. At least 8 games a year in a Dome, a franchise who continues to build around him and goes as far as having the rules adjusted so he's even more protected.

He's a great passer playing for a team who lets him pass all the time in a day and age where passing is easier than it has ever been. However I'd rather take a guy who's more consistent even if he doesn't put up super stats during the regular season.

I do think that both guys are perfect for their teams though so having all these arguments about who is better is retarded.

iamgenus
12-10-2010, 12:23 PM
A few people who have a lot more clout in regards to NFL knowledge than anybody on this forum.

My question to you is...I at least hope that everyone commenting on the discussion has seen Manning and Brady play their full careers. What exactly makes the NFL network execs way more appropriate to make judgments on players?

Do they get some hidden game tape that shows a different game?

Are they somehow able to extract Tom Brady from the patriots, flip flop him with Peyton Manning then re-create history to see who performs better on each team?

Opinions are like *******s and everyone has one. We've all seen so called "experts" be wrong plenty of times. Using a list made by "experts" does nothing.

If I showed you the team that most experts picked as the SB winners for this season, does that automatically make that team the best? Why even play the season if the experts picked them?

kethnaab
12-10-2010, 01:24 PM
good lord, why did I click the "view post" button?


(reference to Manning throwing 4 picks) Thanks for proving that it was even more pathetic by Brady. Manning gave them 4 more possessions than they should have had and Brady still sucked. Also you talk as if that game was a blow out or something with the Brady didn't have to do ****. The Patriots won by 10 it wasn't even close to a blow out.

in a discussion about Manning vs. Brady, you use the fact that Manning threw 4 interceptions in a playoff game to show how "pathetic" Brady was.

Bert.
F'ing.
Stare.

back on ignore you go, because you simply cannot be that ignorant, you MUST be doing this on purpose....

GetBigyo
12-10-2010, 01:29 PM
It's like Sick96 has some alert thing on his cellphone that tells him whenever a Brady/Manning thread pops up in here.

He comes in licking his chops getting ready to write paragraphs about Peyton while finishing off each bucket of Peyton's jizz stored in his house.

Sick96stang
12-10-2010, 05:06 PM
My question to you is...I at least hope that everyone commenting on the discussion has seen Manning and Brady play their full careers. What exactly makes the NFL network execs way more appropriate to make judgments on players?

Do they get some hidden game tape that shows a different game?

Are they somehow able to extract Tom Brady from the patriots, flip flop him with Peyton Manning then re-create history to see who performs better on each team?

Opinions are like *******s and everyone has one. We've all seen so called "experts" be wrong plenty of times. Using a list made by "experts" does nothing.

If I showed you the team that most experts picked as the SB winners for this season, does that automatically make that team the best? Why even play the season if the experts picked them?

They do this for a living. Who do you think has watched more Brady and Manning games them or you? One of my good friends is a Patriots fan so I end up watching most of their games and obviously I watch a lot of Colts games as well but I would venture to guess those people have watched both play a lot more than me and a lot more than anybody else on this forum.

Sure nobody is always right but they're considered "experts" for a reason.

Why do you think HOF QB's chose Manning 15:2 over Brady?

Sick96stang
12-10-2010, 05:07 PM
good lord, why did I click the "view post" button?



in a discussion about Manning vs. Brady, you use the fact that Manning threw 4 interceptions in a playoff game to show how "pathetic" Brady was.

Bert.
F'ing.
Stare.

back on ignore you go, because you simply cannot be that ignorant, you MUST be doing this on purpose....

This isn't rocket science. If a QB turns the ball over 4 times the other teams offense is not only going to get more possessions generally that puts them in better field position as well. Thus with 4 turnovers a QB should have better stats due to more possessions. What part of this are you having trouble understanding?

Sick96stang
12-10-2010, 05:09 PM
It's like Sick96 has some alert thing on his cellphone that tells him whenever a Brady/Manning thread pops up in here.

He comes in licking his chops getting ready to write paragraphs about Peyton while finishing off each bucket of Peyton's jizz stored in his house.

I'd be mad if I lived in that **** hole called New Jersey as well.

kethnaab
12-10-2010, 05:19 PM
What part of this are you having trouble understanding?

the part where you use Peyton Manning's 4-interception game as a way to prove that Peyton Manning is better than Tom Brady

iamgenus
12-10-2010, 05:19 PM
Why do you think HOF QB's chose Manning 15:2 over Brady?

I dunno? Probably the same reason every toothpaste brand you pick up at the store is #1 Dentist recommended.

thecheezman
12-10-2010, 05:49 PM
both are great qbs and its kind of dumb you all keep arguing.

both arent godly in the playoffs,

peyton threw that game ending int for a td in the sb

brady had 3 picks and a fumble vs the ravens in the 1st round at home (if that matters)

Sick96stang
12-10-2010, 07:43 PM
the part where you use Peyton Manning's 4-interception game as a way to prove that Peyton Manning is better than Tom Brady

Ok I see a conversation with you needs to stay on 1 topic at a time as you can't differentiate different topics in a single post. You probably won't understand this but I'll say it anyway. I said Manning's 4 INT's shows that Brady played a terrible game. He had a 70 QB rating despite Manning giving him 4 extra possessions.

Sick96stang
12-10-2010, 07:45 PM
I dunno? Probably the same reason every toothpaste brand you pick up at the store is #1 Dentist recommended.

So if you were at the store and saw a toothpaste that is #1 recommended by 15 dentists and one that is #1 recommended by 2 dentists which one do you think you would choose to buy?

Sick96stang
12-10-2010, 07:49 PM
both are great qbs and its kind of dumb you all keep arguing.

both arent godly in the playoffs,

peyton threw that game ending int for a td in the sb

brady had 3 picks and a fumble vs the ravens in the 1st round at home (if that matters)

You have no idea what you're talking about. Brady is the sole reason the Patriots have won their 3 super bowls and his stats are perfect in the playoffs.

Advil
12-10-2010, 08:01 PM
you people need to understand that once your mind is made, theres no changing it.

like you can't convince me to tolerate asian people. no matter what. ever.

so just have your opinion and so be it!


also toms better :)

U.S.M.C. TANKER
12-10-2010, 08:09 PM
Both are great at what they do. Pretty much 1a, 1b status. Enjoy watching them while you can, you might not see such duos like these two ever again.

iamgenus
12-10-2010, 08:22 PM
So if you were at the store and saw a toothpaste that is #1 recommended by 15 dentists and one that is #1 recommended by 2 dentists which one do you think you would choose to buy?

I'd try both and figure out which one I like best.

But you enjoy being a follower.

CCAurora
12-10-2010, 08:24 PM
I'd try both and figure out which one I like best.

But you enjoy being a follower.

Strong toothpaste budget.

Let's be reality - "Brady vs. Manning" as as close to "Montana vs. Marino" possible. We all know who wins the ladder. After 2006, it was a real tough call, but Brady more than caught up since. By the time his career is done, "Brady vs. Montana" may be the more apt argument. With another ring, it'd be a tossup between the two because Brady has that 07 season from the gods of statistical aesthetics.

thecheezman
12-10-2010, 09:30 PM
You have no idea what you're talking about. Brady is the sole reason the Patriots have won their 3 super bowls and his stats are perfect in the playoffs.

yeah youre right. im just gunna neg myself for that one

thecheezman
12-10-2010, 09:31 PM
Strong toothpaste budget.

Let's be reality - "Brady vs. Manning" as as close to "Montana vs. Marino" possible. We all know who wins the ladder. After 2006, it was a real tough call, but Brady more than caught up since. By the time his career is done, "Brady vs. Montana" may be the more apt argument. With another ring, it'd be a tossup between the two because Brady has that 07 season from the gods of statistical aesthetics.

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/mikeyp/Patriots.jpg

Sick96stang
12-10-2010, 10:28 PM
I'd try both and figure out which one I like best.

But you enjoy being a follower.

So say you enjoy the one with 2 recommendations best you gonna go argue why that one is better to the 15 dentists who recommended the other and say you're right that the one you chose is better and they're wrong? Do you also expect people to hold your opinion in equal and/or regards to that of the 15 dentists?

crunchyblack
12-10-2010, 10:30 PM
5 pages of opinions

JTrain306
12-10-2010, 10:32 PM
So say you enjoy the one with 2 recommendations best you gonna go argue why that one is better to the 15 dentists who recommended the other and say you're right that the one you chose is better and they're wrong? Do you also expect people to hold your opinion in equal and/or regards to that of the 15 dentists?
You just reached a new low.

Sick96stang
12-10-2010, 10:35 PM
You just reached a new low.

10,793 posts. It certainly can't be any lower than your social life outside of the bb.com forums.

avokshi2000
12-10-2010, 10:41 PM
10,793 posts. It certainly can't be any lower than your social life outside of the bb.com forums.

he averages 1.14 more posts per day than you.....

Sick96stang
12-10-2010, 10:43 PM
he averages 1.14 more posts per day than you.....

Ok...

avokshi2000
12-10-2010, 10:48 PM
Ok...

your a phaggot

Sick96stang
12-10-2010, 10:50 PM
your a phaggot

Are you sure YOU'RE not a phaggot?

JTrain306
12-10-2010, 10:52 PM
10,793 posts. It certainly can't be any lower than your social life outside of the bb.com forums.


he averages 1.14 more posts per day than you.....

another sick96sh!tstain fail

Sick96stang
12-10-2010, 10:55 PM
another sick96sh!tstain fail

Well that was clever. I see all this posting on here has really served you well.

JTrain306
12-10-2010, 10:58 PM
Well that was clever. I see all this posting on here has really served you well.
I see all of your posting hasn't really served you well at all.

Sick96stang
12-10-2010, 11:01 PM
I see all of your posting hasn't really served you well at all.

Glad to hear it.

kethnaab
12-10-2010, 11:05 PM
Ok I see a conversation with you needs to stay on 1 topic at a time as you can't differentiate different topics in a single post.

you missed the entire point

you don't see anything wrong with saying, "Manning is better than Brady, just look how bad Brady did in a game where Manning threw 4 interceptions.


He had a 70 QB rating despite Manning giving him 4 extra possessions.

yes, a 70 QB rating....almost exactly twice what Manning's QB rating was that game

You REALLY don't see the issue, do you?

Sick96stang
12-10-2010, 11:15 PM
you missed the entire point

you don't see anything wrong with saying, "Manning is better than Brady, just look how bad Brady did in a game where Manning threw 4 interceptions.

You missed the entire point.

My point of saying Brady did bad in a game Manning threw 4 INT's wasn't to try and show how Manning is better than Brady it's to show how poorly Brady played in that game because you seem to think his play in that second post season was phenomenal throughout.




yes, a 70 QB rating....almost exactly twice what Manning's QB rating was that game

You REALLY don't see the issue, do you?

That's great Brady outplayed Manning that game. He still didn't do good himself which has been my whole point all along because you keep trying to argue about how great Brady did that post season.

I'm really not sure how I can make my point clearer. My point in the last few responses has been to show that Brady was not the leader of his team for his first 2 rings and that if not for superb defensive play he would not have those 2 rings.

In b4 "oh well Manning sucked and he shouldn't have his ring either". Even though I've already agreed with that 3,000 times now.

iamgenus
12-11-2010, 07:22 AM
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/mikeyp/Patriots.jpg

What's your point? For years Manning nuthuggers were saying Peyton was way better because of his stats yet he wasn't even close to sniffing the superbowl.

Brady blows Manning's numbers away and leads his team to 2 minutes away from a perfect season...and somehow that doesn't help?

gingersliftto
12-11-2010, 07:35 AM
The reason why I refuse to not like manning is because he carries the team, and thats known by every one that watches his games..

And people talkin sht on manning, I was watching the game last sunday, and hit atleast, ATLEAST 6 people in the numbers of thier jerseys, and the ball went to the ground. so manning is not to blame.

iamgenus
12-11-2010, 07:37 AM
That's great Brady outplayed Manning that game. He still didn't do good himself which has been my whole point all along because you keep trying to argue about how great Brady did that post season.

I'm really not sure how I can make my point clearer. My point in the last few responses has been to show that Brady was not the leader of his team for his first 2 rings and that if not for superb defensive play he would not have those 2 rings.

In b4 "oh well Manning sucked and he shouldn't have his ring either". Even though I've already agreed with that 3,000 times now.

You really are retarded. Look at those old patriot teams and find me one offensive player worth a damn. Tom Brady has grown as a QB his whole career. He started out as a guy who just made smart decision not to turn the ball over and was essentially a good game manager - the team relied more on the defense than the offense to win games.

The team has changed drastically since then and right now they have one of the worst defenses around. The Pats rely on Brady these days just as much as the Colts do Manning.

As far as the pats SB victories you have to be a retard or a complete hater to think that Brady had nothing to do with winning those games. SB 1 you can argue he had a minimal impact but he did lead them down the field at the end when all the "experts" said to play for OT.

Now if you think that he relies on superb defensive play for ring #2 then I may join keethnab in ignoring you. I guess winning the game 32 to 29 screams defensive domination huh?

iamgenus
12-11-2010, 07:50 AM
The reason why I refuse to not like manning is because he carries the team, and thats known by every one that watches his games..

And people talkin sht on manning, I was watching the game last sunday, and hit atleast, ATLEAST 6 people in the numbers of thier jerseys, and the ball went to the ground. so manning is not to blame.

Ok...this is why I can't stand Manning nuthuggers. Is Peyton the only guy to ever have his receivers drop a pass? How about the plays where his receivers break tackles and gain big YAC? How about the times his receivers make amazing catches for throws that aren't on the numbers?

When IS it Peyton's fault?

And for the record people don't think Manning sucks. Far from it. Most people here just find it pathetic that he's on another level in terms of excuses. When he plays well it's all him but when he plays poorly it's his OL, receivers, refs, other teams defense...never him though.

It's pathetic.

Peyton Manning has had some of the best offensive teams around him since coming into the league. His offensive line until recently has always been very strong, especially in pass protection. He had an excellent running game until about 2-3 years ago. And he's had to deal with hardly any offensive scheme changes and this is the first time he's dealing with some injuries on the offense...and while still having his #1 or #2 receivers...or #1 and #3 if you want to bitch about Clark being #2, he's went through by far his worst stretch of games. In fact I'm curious to see if any qb in history has done worse than 11 picks in 3 games.

Manning is a great qb and nobody is denying that but this nuthuggers for the guy has to stop. Excuse after excuse. What's funny is apparently he's the only QB who gets to use those excuses.

thecheezman
12-11-2010, 08:20 AM
What's your point? For years Manning nuthuggers were saying Peyton was way better because of his stats yet he wasn't even close to sniffing the superbowl.

Brady blows Manning's numbers away and leads his team to 2 minutes away from a perfect season...and somehow that doesn't help?

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/mikeyp/TomBrady.jpg

iamgenus
12-11-2010, 09:32 AM
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/mikeyp/TomBrady.jpg

Clever. Guess Eli is better than him too.

TriangleX
12-11-2010, 09:40 AM
I don't care who he slams or what he has done, i cant in all good conscious label a QB that represents male uggs the best QB ever
http://www.refinery29.com/img/tom-brady-uggs.jpg

iamgenus
12-11-2010, 09:51 AM
I don't care who he slams or what he has done, i cant in all good conscious label a QB that represents male uggs the best QB ever
http://www.refinery29.com/img/tom-brady-uggs.jpg

He's not the best ever.

Sick96stang
12-11-2010, 12:01 PM
What's your point? For years Manning nuthuggers were saying Peyton was way better because of his stats yet he wasn't even close to sniffing the superbowl.

Brady blows Manning's numbers away and leads his team to 2 minutes away from a perfect season...and somehow that doesn't help?

Manning was only in the league for 5 years before he went to the AFCCG. You don't call going to the AFCCG close to sniffing the super bowl?

I sure hope you're talking about post season only stats and not including regular season.

Sick96stang
12-11-2010, 12:07 PM
You really are retarded. Look at those old patriot teams and find me one offensive player worth a damn. Tom Brady has grown as a QB his whole career. He started out as a guy who just made smart decision not to turn the ball over and was essentially a good game manager - the team relied more on the defense than the offense to win games.

The team has changed drastically since then and right now they have one of the worst defenses around. The Pats rely on Brady these days just as much as the Colts do Manning.

As far as the pats SB victories you have to be a retard or a complete hater to think that Brady had nothing to do with winning those games. SB 1 you can argue he had a minimal impact but he did lead them down the field at the end when all the "experts" said to play for OT.

Now if you think that he relies on superb defensive play for ring #2 then I may join keethnab in ignoring you. I guess winning the game 32 to 29 screams defensive domination huh?

Corey Dillon, stacked offensive line. Thank you finally a Patriots fan admitted that part in bold.

About time Brady was in Manning's shoes. Remind me again how many SB's have the Pats won in the past 5 years?

Please do show me where I said Brady had nothing to do with any of their SB wins... I'll wait. I see you still love to put words in peoples mouth.

Brady's first two games in his second post season

Game 1: 1 TD, 0 INT, 201 yards, 73.3 QB rating
Game 2: 1 TD, 1 INT, 237 yards, 76.1 QB rating

You really think without a superb defense Pats are winning those games with that sort of production from your QB?

He had an 83.3 QB rating that post season. That's certainly not the rating of a QB who is leading the team to victory.

Sick96stang
12-11-2010, 12:09 PM
Manning is a great qb and nobody is denying that but this nuthuggers for the guy has to stop. Excuse after excuse. What's funny is apparently he's the only QB who gets to use those excuses.

How's fantasy island? You must been living on it if you think those excuses have only been made for Manning and never for any other QB. I'm sure they've never ever been used for Tom, ever. No way that has ever ever happened.

avokshi2000
12-11-2010, 12:43 PM
Corey Dillon, stacked offensive line. Thank you finally a Patriots fan admitted that part in bold.

About time Brady was in Manning's shoes. Remind me again how many SB's have the Pats won in the past 5 years?

Please do show me where I said Brady had nothing to do with any of their SB wins... I'll wait. I see you still love to put words in peoples mouth.

Brady's first two games in his second post season

Game 1: 1 TD, 0 INT, 201 yards, 73.3 QB rating
Game 2: 1 TD, 1 INT, 237 yards, 76.1 QB rating

You really think without a superb defense Pats are winning those games with that sort of production from your QB?

He had an 83.3 QB rating that post season. That's certainly not the rating of a QB who is leading the team to victory.


you are a ****ing hypocrite, you call everyone out because 'we only post stats that favor brady' but here is something that you forgot to mention:

Brady threw for 354 yards with three touchdowns and set the record for most completions by a QB in a Super Bowl (32). With 1:08 left in the fourth quarter and the score tied 29-29, Brady engineered a drive to put the Patriots in position for the game-winning field goal.



btw; his passer rating that postseason was 84.5 not '83.3'

Sick96stang
12-11-2010, 12:51 PM
you are a ****ing hypocrite, you call everyone out because 'we only post stats that favor brady' but here is something that you forgot to mention:

Ummm where did I call people out for only posting stats that favor Brady? If anything people are calling me out for only posting stats that favor Manning.




btw; his passer rating that postseason was 84.5 not '83.3'

Uhhh

73.3 + 76.1 + 100.5 / 3 = 83.3

Not sure where you are getting 84.5 from.

Plus where did I ever say Brady didn't have a good superbowl? It's the one game that post season where he played very well but my original point still stands of if not for his defense he wouldn't have even been in the super bowl to put up those stats as his two games before that were not even average, they were bad.

Greg1983
12-11-2010, 01:07 PM
Uhhh

73.3 + 76.1 + 100.5 / 3 = 83.3

Not sure where you are getting 84.5 from.


Yeah because that's how passer rating is calculated.

Sick96stang
12-11-2010, 01:26 PM
Yeah because that's how passer rating is calculated.

If that's not how Brady's average passing rating for that post season is calculated do inform me of how it's done.

Erik2806
12-11-2010, 01:44 PM
ITT: pathetic manning fans try to use faulty logic to defend him

brady > manning

rsnnh12
12-11-2010, 02:00 PM
If that's not how Brady's average passing rating for that post season is calculated do inform me of how it's done.

....... are you serious?

Let's say someone has a 350 yard, 4 TD, 0 INT game, and a perfect 158.3 rating. Next game, he throws an INT on his first pass and then gets injured. QB rating of 0. Would his QB rating for those 2 games be 79.15? Or would you add in the INT to his stats from the previous game and recalculate?



No surprise you're a Manning nuthugger

Sick96stang
12-11-2010, 02:12 PM
....... are you serious?

Let's say someone has a 350 yard, 4 TD, 0 INT game, and a perfect 158.3 rating. Next game, he throws an INT on his first pass and then gets injured. QB rating of 0. Would his QB rating for those 2 games be 79.15? Or would you add in the INT to his stats from the previous game and recalculate?



No surprise you're a Manning nuthugger

Yes it would be 79.15 for those 2 games. This is simple mathematics. Obviously that # is flawed because of injury but by it's technical average yes his average QB rating for those 2 games was 79.15. If you can tell me how his QB rating was 84.5 like the other guy suggested please feel free to do so or if you can tell me what Brady's QB rating was for his second post season please also feel free to do so.

Huse
12-11-2010, 02:17 PM
Yes it would be 79.15 for those 2 games. This is simple mathematics. Obviously that # is flawed because of injury but by it's technical average yes his average QB rating for those 2 games was 79.15. If you can tell me how his QB rating was 84.5 like the other guy suggested please feel free to do so.

Very simple:
Let's say for one game the comp % is 30/40 or 75%
Let's say for the next game the comp % is 15/25 or 60%

When you average it by simply summing and dividing the %s you would get a new comp % of 67%. This is incorrect because you are averaging percentages and not actual values which essentially means you are not weighing what is actually going on in the games accordingly.

It's easy to see that the correct comp% throughout the two games is 45/65 or 69%.

Sick96stang
12-11-2010, 02:23 PM
Very simple:
Let's say for one game the comp % is 30/40 or 75%
Let's say for the next game the comp % is 15/25 or 60%

When you average it by simply summing and dividing the %s you would get a new comp % of 67%. This is incorrect because you are averaging percentages and not actual values which essentially means you are not weighing what is actually going on in the games accordingly.

It's easy to see that the correct comp% throughout the two games is 45/65 or 69%.

QB rating there is no %'s to average. All you are provided with is the actual QB rating. I see what you are saying with different games weighing differently on the total but am not sure how you would go about translating that to QB rating.

rsnnh12
12-11-2010, 02:28 PM
Yes it would be 79.15 for those 2 games. This is simple mathematics. Obviously that # is flawed because of injury but by it's technical average yes his average QB rating for those 2 games was 79.15. If you can tell me how his QB rating was 84.5 like the other guy suggested please feel free to do so or if you can tell me what Brady's QB rating was for his second post season please also feel free to do so.

No, you would calculate the adjusted statline of 350 yards, 4 TDs, and 1 INT, which is significantly higher than 79.15. You don't just average the 2 games together.


Wikipedia "qb rating" for the formula they use

Sick96stang
12-11-2010, 02:32 PM
No, you would calculate the adjusted statline of 350 yards, 4 TDs, and 1 INT, which is significantly higher than 79.15. You don't just average the 2 games together.


Wikipedia "qb rating" for the formula they use

Yea I'm not ambitious enough to go do all that calculating but I see what you are saying and you're correct.

To get back to the original point his first two games in the playoffs were still far from stellar so my original point still remains that his first two games in that post season were at best average and that if not for a superb defense he probably doesn't even make it to that super bowl.

LOWTESTOSTERONE
12-13-2010, 02:17 PM
Brady will be league MVP

kethnaab
12-13-2010, 04:21 PM
73.3 + 76.1 + 100.5 / 3 = 83.3

Not sure where you are getting 84.5 from.

holy mother of God

you're serious, aren't you? You're actually of the opinion that you just calculated his passer rating for 3 games, aren't you?

lordie...smh

Fanatikk
12-13-2010, 05:10 PM
Right now, Brady is the best qb in the league. This debate is going to go back and forth and will never end until the end of time. Now the Brady fans are feeling good because the tide is with Brady.

About 6 weeks ago, people were hailing Manning as an MVP candidate because he was playing great while the Colts were dealing with injuries. At that time, Brady was not playing great at all. His passes were just off.

What a difference a few weeks makes. Brady has been dialed in and playing better than ever, while Manning decided to try to break the pick 6 record.

I'm sure the trends will change again. They always do and we'll always have these debates.

As a Colts fan, I must ask you Pats fans how it feels when the Colts should have beaten you this year, if it wasn't for our god awful quarterback!

As a matter of fact, did Manning also cost us the Philly game and the Cowboys game? hmmmm

LOWTESTOSTERONE
12-14-2010, 06:53 AM
at the level Tom is playing... No one can stop him.

You realize that he has totally embarassed the top 4 of 5 defenses in league ???

Steelers, Ravens, Jets, Bears..

and the Packers are soon to join the club.


tom will have faced the best 5 defenses in the NFL on his way to the first seed in the AFC and a home field advantage.

The road to the superbowl for the AFC goes through foxboro

thecheezman
12-14-2010, 06:53 AM
Right now, Brady is the best qb in the league. This debate is going to go back and forth and will never end until the end of time. Now the Brady fans are feeling good because the tide is with Brady.

About 6 weeks ago, people were hailing Manning as an MVP candidate because he was playing great while the Colts were dealing with injuries. At that time, Brady was not playing great at all. His passes were just off.

What a difference a few weeks makes. Brady has been dialed in and playing better than ever, while Manning decided to try to break the pick 6 record.

I'm sure the trends will change again. They always do and we'll always have these debates.

As a Colts fan, I must ask you Pats fans how it feels when the Colts should have beaten you this year, if it wasn't for our god awful quarterback!

As a matter of fact, did Manning also cost us the Philly game and the Cowboys game? hmmmm

this.

battle goes back and forth, all the brady fans have the momentum and stats to back him up with currently. last year coming up to the superbowl we didnt hear anything from brady/pats fans. why? bc he threw 3 ints and fumbled against the ravens in the 1st round. who the next round the colts picked apart. and lets the ravens score off a fg.

now manning is playing like crap, but showed a little sign of life against the titans. no hate on brady but i truly believe manning is a better qb. playoff wise and stat wise brady might have a slight edge. but you cant change someones opinion with stupid remarks from all the pats fans. the battle is so close but every year for the past 8 years theyve been in the top 3 for qbs.

currently pats>colts. and whoever wins against the other that season is the better qb