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FemmeFatale28
11-19-2010, 10:43 AM
Hear me out... So I was thinking ( always dangerous) and time and time again people have said that the body does NOT store alcohol calories but rather they take precedence over the other calories consumed. Now.. with that logic then one could make the assumption that :

- If Sally eats 1600 calories today and by 9PM has in fact burned 1600 calories then the calories she drinks after the fact from alcohol (provided is liquor mixed only with diet or water) will be null.

If this is not true... why isn't it?

Sitting here at work.. with not much to do and this thought crossed my mind. Seems feasible.

Z Gatrel
11-19-2010, 10:49 AM
Im slightly confused by the way you presented it ( I just woke up cut me some slack ha ). However, the way I have always seen it is if my maintinence is 3k cals and I take in 2400 through food that leaves me a dandy 600 cals of alch to drink without worry of fat gain.

I really feel like people worry too much about alch ( not saying you are, just people in general ), its been proven time and again that it can be fit into your macros just like anything else. Ive seen Endos, Ectos, Mesos all cut while incorporating multiple drinkining nights throughout there week and not lose LBM while losing Fat.

Im seriously tired so I have no idea if this is at all beneficial, just putting in my 2 cents :P

lee__d
11-19-2010, 10:52 AM
have you read the leangains article on alcohol? if so, idk lol

http://www.leangains.com/2010/07/truth-about-alcohol-fat-loss-and-muscle.html

FemmeFatale28
11-19-2010, 11:01 AM
Yes, I actually follow the lean gains protocol. Im not worried about it for myself, I was just thinking that if the body doesnt store alcohol calories, its starts burning them immediately since its a "poision" is it fair to say that if you have already burned off what you ate before you start drinking why worry about alcohol calories? Lets be real, if you are following the lean gains protocol AND you are dieting you really become a "light weight" anyway

DanTheManB
11-19-2010, 11:29 AM
Hear me out... So I was thinking ( always dangerous) and time and time again people have said that the body does NOT store alcohol calories but rather they take precedence over the other calories consumed. Now.. with that logic then one could make the assumption that :

- If Sally eats 1600 calories today and by 9PM has in fact burned 1600 calories then the calories she drinks after the fact from alcohol (provided is liquor mixed only with diet or water) will be null.

If this is not true... why isn't it?

Sitting here at work.. with not much to do and this thought crossed my mind. Seems feasible.

Alcohol is burned for energy AHEAD of any other macro...another means of ridding the poison in the system. If you drink any cals from alcohol you should count it.

That being said, one could easily cut and make progress while haaving say 3-6 bacardi and diet cokes per week....one shot to 1.5 in each drink. Hell there's a guy on here who got super shredded and binge drank once/week. But he did in fact watch his diet extremely close on that day and didn't eat garbage once drunk.

FemmeFatale28
11-19-2010, 11:34 AM
Alcohol is burned for energy AHEAD of any other macro...another means of ridding the poison in the system. If you drink any cals from alcohol you should count it.


Right I understand that it burns before anything else. What I am saying is.. if you have burned off the calories you already consumed for the day then all that is going to happen is that fat oxidization is turned off but you will not go into caloric surplus no matter how much you drink, and provided you dont eat after drinking.

MikeK46
11-19-2010, 11:38 AM
Hear me out... So I was thinking ( always dangerous) and time and time again people have said that the body does NOT store alcohol calories but rather they take precedence over the other calories consumed. Now.. with that logic then one could make the assumption that :

- If Sally eats 1600 calories today and by 9PM has in fact burned 1600 calories then the calories she drinks after the fact from alcohol (provided is liquor mixed only with diet or water) will be null.

If this is not true... why isn't it?

Sitting here at work.. with not much to do and this thought crossed my mind. Seems feasible.

It is not true because Sally's body does not shut down after 9PM. She continues to expend energy. So if 1600 calories is her maintenance, then she has already factored the energy she will expend after 9PM into her 1600 calories of energy intake.

Alcohol = energy. If she consumes 400 calories of alcohol after 9PM, she has taken in 2000 calories of energy that day, yet she still only burned ~1600. She is now in a 400 calorie surplus.

The 1600 calories before 9PM had her in a surplus. She would have continued to oxidize fat after 9PM had she not drank the alcohol, and ultimately had zero net fat gain. The 400 calories of alcohol prevented her from oxidizing 400 calories of fat.

For all intensive purpose, it's a closed system. If you put energy in, it has to go somewhere. It's either expended or stored, there's no other way to get around it. Since the body prioritizes the alcohol, all that means is that the alcohol instead of the fat will be expended, while the fat that would otherwise be burned will stay stored. The laws of thermodynamics are the laws of thermodynamics.

Seer00
11-19-2010, 11:40 AM
Hear me out... So I was thinking ( always dangerous) and time and time again people have said that the body does NOT store alcohol calories but rather they take precedence over the other calories consumed. Now.. with that logic then one could make the assumption that :

- If Sally eats 1600 calories today and by 9PM has in fact burned 1600 calories then the calories she drinks after the fact from alcohol (provided is liquor mixed only with diet or water) will be null.

If this is not true... why isn't it?

Sitting here at work.. with not much to do and this thought crossed my mind. Seems feasible.

you still need to consider the calories, regardless of timing--it's still a source of energy. In your example, if Sally didn't drink, the energy required would be taken from glycogen stores and/or fat (assuming non-starvation).

Now, as Martin points out in the link provided above, the actual caloric content is closer to 5.7 calories per gram due to higher thermic effect of food (TEF) for alcohol.

Edit: What MikeK46 typed out faster than I

Alwaysdeadlift
11-19-2010, 11:41 AM
http://www.leangains.com/2010/07/truth-about-alcohol-fat-loss-and-muscle.html

FemmeFatale28
11-19-2010, 11:48 AM
It is not true because Sally's body does not shut down after 9PM. She continues to expend energy. So if 1600 calories is her maintenance, then she has already factored the energy she will expend after 9PM into her 1600 calories of energy intake.

Alcohol = energy. If she consumes 400 calories of alcohol after 9PM, she has taken in 2000 calories of energy that day, yet she still only burned ~1600. She is now in a 400 calorie surplus.

The 1600 calories before 9PM had her in a surplus. She would have continued to oxidize fat after 9PM had she not drank the alcohol, and ultimately had zero net fat gain. The 400 calories of alcohol prevented her from oxidizing 400 calories of fat.

What I mean is she has eatten 1600 calories, and by 9PM she has ALREADY expended 1600 calories, then she consumes alcohol, now what? Fat/ Carb oxidization will stop, and the body will burn alcohol calories but who really cares because shes already burned off what she ate, shes not storing anything NEW just isnt burning anything extra right or wrong?

Hopefully this makes sense. :)

MikeK46
11-19-2010, 11:59 AM
What I mean is she has eatten 1600 calories, and by 9PM she has ALREADY expended 1600 calories, then she consumes alcohol, now what? Fat/ Carb oxidization will stop, and the body will burn alcohol calories but who really cares because shes already burned off what she ate, shes not storing anything NEW just isnt burning anything extra right or wrong?

Hopefully this makes sense. :)

If you want to stop her daily energy expenditure at 9PM, then 9:01PM expenditure must account for the next day.

If she consumes 400 calories of energy after 9PM, that's 400 extra calories she has to burn from 9:01PM until 9PM the next day (since thats your cutoff point) to break even. It wouldn't matter if its from alcohol or protein.

So no...you still can't escape it. You are accountable for all the energy you take in. If you choose not to account for it today, then you have to account for it tomorrow or sometime later. It doesn't just disappear ;)

Reloadguy
11-19-2010, 12:14 PM
What I mean is she has eatten 1600 calories, and by 9PM she has ALREADY expended 1600 calories, then she consumes alcohol, now what? Fat/ Carb oxidization will stop, and the body will burn alcohol calories but who really cares because shes already burned off what she ate, shes not storing anything NEW just isnt burning anything extra right or wrong?

Hopefully this makes sense. :)

You are correct but that would mean she would be in a deficit by the time she started drinking assuming her maintenance is higher than 1600. So she drinks, eventually creating a surplus with alcohol but since it cannot not be stored and there's no food digesting, she hasn't gained any fat the next day.

Reloadguy
11-19-2010, 12:24 PM
If you want to stop her daily energy expenditure at 9PM, then 9:01PM expenditure must account for the next day.

If she consumes 400 calories of energy after 9PM, that's 400 extra calories she has to burn from 9:01PM until 9PM the next day (since thats your cutoff point) to break even. It wouldn't matter if its from alcohol or protein.

So no...you still can't escape it. You are accountable for all the energy you take in. If you choose not to account for it today, then you have to account for it tomorrow or sometime later. It doesn't just disappear ;)

Except that alcohol isn't energy that can be stored as you know and I'm sure you've read Martin's article where he points out..

"Alcohol is converted to acetate by the liver. The oxidation of acetate takes precedence over other nutrients and is oxidized to carbon dioxide and water. However, despite being a potent inhibitor of lipolysis, alcohol/acetate alone cannot cause fat gain by itself."

FemmeFatale28
11-19-2010, 12:26 PM
You are correct but that would mean she would be in a deficit by the time she started drinking assuming her maintenance is higher than 1600. So she drinks, eventually creating a surplus with alcohol but since it cannot not be stored and there's no food digesting, she hasn't gained any fat the next day.

This was my thoughts

Dexter3000
11-19-2010, 12:33 PM
It is not true because Sally's body does not shut down after 9PM. She continues to expend energy. So if 1600 calories is her maintenance, then she has already factored the energy she will expend after 9PM into her 1600 calories of energy intake.

Alcohol = energy. If she consumes 400 calories of alcohol after 9PM, she has taken in 2000 calories of energy that day, yet she still only burned ~1600. She is now in a 400 calorie surplus.

The 1600 calories before 9PM had her in a surplus. She would have continued to oxidize fat after 9PM had she not drank the alcohol, and ultimately had zero net fat gain. The 400 calories of alcohol prevented her from oxidizing 400 calories of fat.

For all intensive purpose, it's a closed system. If you put energy in, it has to go somewhere. It's either expended or stored, there's no other way to get around it. Since the body prioritizes the alcohol, all that means is that the alcohol instead of the fat will be expended, while the fat that would otherwise be burned will stay stored. The laws of thermodynamics are the laws of thermodynamics.

This.



Personally, the reason I don't go overboard on alcohol is mostly because the way I feel the next day: overall feeling sick, bad junkfood cravings, terrible workouts (if possible), just a feeling of weakness that can last for 2 days. Not worth a 'fun night' which I can also enjoy with not too much alcohol (or non at all).

joelash302
11-19-2010, 12:38 PM
It is not true because Sally's body does not shut down after 9PM. She continues to expend energy. So if 1600 calories is her maintenance, then she has already factored the energy she will expend after 9PM into her 1600 calories of energy intake.

Alcohol = energy. If she consumes 400 calories of alcohol after 9PM, she has taken in 2000 calories of energy that day, yet she still only burned ~1600. She is now in a 400 calorie surplus.

The 1600 calories before 9PM had her in a surplus. She would have continued to oxidize fat after 9PM had she not drank the alcohol, and ultimately had zero net fat gain. The 400 calories of alcohol prevented her from oxidizing 400 calories of fat.

For all intensive purpose, it's a closed system. If you put energy in, it has to go somewhere. It's either expended or stored, there's no other way to get around it. Since the body prioritizes the alcohol, all that means is that the alcohol instead of the fat will be expended, while the fat that would otherwise be burned will stay stored. The laws of thermodynamics are the laws of thermodynamics.

I'm sorry I have to do this - FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES.

Holyspokes
11-19-2010, 12:40 PM
You will just prolong the termination of lipolysis for longer. Like Mike said, it's all about calories. They have to go somewhere. You will just rely on the alcohol in your system instead of fat that would normally be used (say when she's sleeping). So maybe the alcohol isn't be stored as fat, but your stopping lipolysis for a prolonged period. In the end it doesn't matter if your storing it as fat or not.. because it has caloric value.

FemmeFatale28
11-19-2010, 12:42 PM
You will just prolong the termination of lipolysis for longer. Like Mike said, it's all about calories. They have to go somewhere. You will just rely on the alcohol in your system instead of fat that would normally be used (say when she's sleeping). So maybe the alcohol isn't be stored as fat, but your stopping lipolysis for a prolonged period..

Right. Which was my whole point. Shes not storing any NEW fat, she just isnt burning the fat that she would have otherwise had she not drank. Hee..

This is all really just for conversation purposes. :)

desslok
11-19-2010, 12:51 PM
Right. Which was my whole point. Shes not storing any NEW fat, she just isnt burning the fat that she would have otherwise had she not drank. Hee..

This is all really just for conversation purposes. :)

But what if she did this while eating negative calorie celery?
/headasplode

Seer00
11-19-2010, 12:56 PM
Right. Which was my whole point. Shes not storing any NEW fat, she just isnt burning the fat that she would have otherwise had she not drank. Hee..

This is all really just for conversation purposes. :)

That is the case regardless of your scenario on caloric timing and consumption, alcohol does not get stored as fat -- it is used immediately as energy.

FemmeFatale28
11-19-2010, 01:01 PM
But what if she did this while eating negative calorie celery?
/headasplode

lol then she would have to count those negative calories toward the next day lol

MikeK46
11-19-2010, 01:34 PM
Right. Which was my whole point. Shes not storing any NEW fat, she just isnt burning the fat that she would have otherwise had she not drank.

Exactly. You're preventing oxidation of existing bodyfat which you would have otherwise burned. This will similarly lead to a net fat gain if caloric intake is higher than expenditure :)


Except that alcohol isn't energy that can be stored as you know and I'm sure you've read Martin's article where he points out..

This has already been established. The alcohol is prioritized over fat that would have otherwise been burned, which still leads to net gains in fat if caloric intake is higher than expenditure.

In a caloric surplus, storing more fat = burning less fat.

Nutshell20
11-19-2010, 01:51 PM
All is good unless the alcohol leads to a Meatlovers supreme at 2am, or maybe a Taco Bell run or both. Maybe a 20 piece hot wings from Hooters...

MikeK46
11-19-2010, 02:03 PM
On a similar note, a high carb meal will likewise result in prioritization of blood glucose for energy over oxidation of existing bodyfat. So carbs are all that much different than alcohol in that respect.

Alcohol and carbs are actually quite similar on a molecular level.

Carbohydrates = Cm(H2O)n, with a hydrogen to oxygen atom ratio of 2:1.
Ethanol = C2H6O

Geodude94
11-19-2010, 02:28 PM
you wouldnt have to worry about it if you stoped drinking and started smoking :)

AdamWW
11-19-2010, 02:34 PM
I also think you're examining this whole alcohol and calorie connection from the wrong angle. People tend to measure caloric expenditure (be it deficit or surplus) on a daily basis, but this is really only useful as a general guide. What matters is the calorie expenditure over the period of time you want to measure. Put simply, I am my current weight because, over my entire life, this is where my caloric expenditure has landed me. It may seem profound to say, but that is the reality. If you're talking about a single day then technically nothing would matter and I could go ahead and eat a box of chocolates knowing I could starve the next day and have it be null. However, if you're talking about a consistent way to maintain weight then the whole question is coming from the wrong direction.

So, yes, if she was maintaining at the level that the alcohol would land her at after the 1600 calories were burned, then in a purely caloric-sense the drink would not add weight. It would not be excluded from the whole picture because she did put it into her body.. but she shouldn't technically gain any weight from it.

Alwaysdeadlift
11-19-2010, 02:39 PM
But what if she did this while eating negative calorie celery?
/headasplode

That was.... awesome!

jake1224
11-19-2010, 03:24 PM
didnt read thread, not sure if posted:

http://www.leangains.com/2010/07/truth-about-alcohol-fat-loss-and-muscle.html

/thread

trance__dreamer
11-19-2010, 05:01 PM
All is good unless the alcohol leads to a Meatlovers supreme at 2am, or maybe a Taco Bell run or both. Maybe a 20 piece hot wings from Hooters...

if i were a drunk guy @ hooters @ 2 a.m., i wouldn't be interested in the food. :S only a fatty goes to hooters for the fewd instead of teh bewb. xD

Nutshell20
11-19-2010, 05:09 PM
if i were a drunk guy @ hooters @ 2 a.m., i wouldn't be interested in the food. :S only a fatty goes to hooters for the fewd instead of teh bewb. xD

Oops, bewbs>wings. Win!