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SYRIANKID
07-09-2010, 09:12 PM
http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/article/834401--the-life-of-the-brain-beginnings

A range of research, particularly the creation of non-invasive imaging technologies, will soon allow scientists to peer inside a developing human brain. The goal is to understand how it develops from a sheet of cells to a 380-gram mass about the size of a squash ball in the span of nine months. And how that infant brain is primed to see, smell, taste, feel, hear and understand her world.

Along the way, scientists hope to soon find answers to two critical questions. When does a fetus become conscious? And how does the fetal environment influence the way a baby's brain develops?

Answering the first question will satisfy our innate curiosity about how life begins. The second question, once parsed out, has the potential to change how society prevents disease

...

“You know, we don't really know anything beyond how a brain develops,” Morshead says. “We understand the physical structure and we're learning about development. But we don't know much about function.”

More simply: We think we know how a brain is made, but we know very little about why it is made this particular way.

...

One hundred years ago, doctors described neural anatomy in terms of information travelling between brain regions along a single path, like phone lines connecting houses or trains travelling along tracks. Now, the common analogy is a series of mini computer circuits.

But the way our brain works surely is infinitely more complex. There are few comparisons in the manmade world, never mind in the universe, to the tangle of cells housed in our skull's bony box that leads to memory, emotion and consciousness.

...

Many fetal experts say it is too early to discuss the topic because scientists have yet to fully define consciousness in adults. That infants and fetuses cannot talk, share their emotions or describe their experiences is another obstacle to defining when they might become conscious during development.

Very_Yogurt
07-09-2010, 09:49 PM
Hmm...I want to know when the Brain becomes conscious as well. I mean just as aware as a born baby. "Conciousness" is still something we know very little about.




Also, you're doing this again! This is like the 500th time you've posted an article and an excerpt and havent said anything about what you think.


What do you after posting this? Twiddle your thumbs and say "excellent..."? Consume whey in mass quantities? Ride a gigantic prarie dog into the field of battle and take down everything in your path? WHAT IS IT?!

SYRIANKID
07-10-2010, 07:15 AM
Hmm...I want to know when the Brain becomes conscious as well. I mean just as aware as a born baby. "Conciousness" is still something we know very little about.




Also, you're doing this again! This is like the 500th time you've posted an article and an excerpt and havent said anything about what you think.


What do you after posting this? Twiddle your thumbs and say "excellent..."? Consume whey in mass quantities? Ride a gigantic prarie dog into the field of battle and take down everything in your path? WHAT IS IT?!

Sometimes an article is just interesting. I won't have anything to contribute until a discussion begins.

Ashen
07-10-2010, 07:19 AM
Can you explain why we come into consciousness instead of being born with it, which is what you'd expect if the soul was a real phenomena? I just don't understand the belief in a soul when the brain clearly seems to be the source of all consciousness.

fuggit
07-10-2010, 07:23 AM
Also, you're doing this again! This is like the 500th time you've posted an article and an excerpt and havent said anything about what you think.


What do you after posting this? Twiddle your thumbs and say "excellent..."? Consume whey in mass quantities? Ride a gigantic prarie dog into the field of battle and take down everything in your path? WHAT IS IT?!



lol - what did you expect? This is from the guy who brought us 77 pages of copy pasta like a good trained parrot -
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=371550

TheResistance
07-10-2010, 07:36 AM
Also,

When a drop of semen remains in the womb for forty or fifty days or forty nights the angels then come and ask Allah whether it will be good or evil (i.e., Muslim or non—Muslim), whether male or female, its deeds, actions, its death, livelihood………. all these are recorded. This document is the final, and no addition or subtraction is done in it…(Sahih Muslim, 33.6392)

SYRIANKID
07-10-2010, 07:45 AM
Can you explain why we come into consciousness instead of being born with it, which is what you'd expect if the soul was a real phenomena? I just don't understand the belief in a soul when the brain clearly seems to be the source of all consciousness.

To be able to answer this question, we would need to understand how a soul interacts with the brain. In other words, what's the relationship between the conscious mind and the soul.

You could ask what the implications are to a soul when a person becomes brain damaged. Is the brain a vehicle through which the soul communicates? Does a soul develop consciousness along with the brain? There simply isn't enough information right now to answer these types of metaphysical questions adequately.

We definitely would not be able to confirm the claim that the brain is the sole source of all consciousness right now.

Consider, for example, that we believe that the soul leaves the body during sleep when someone dreams. Does that mean that a body can still seemingly operate without a soul? Where are the dream-visions taking place - in the brain or soul or both? There is still much to explore in the soul-mind link.

fuggit
07-10-2010, 08:00 AM
To be able to answer this question, we would need to understand how a soul interacts with the brain. In other words, what's the relationship between the conscious mind and the soul.

You could ask what the implications are to a soul when a person becomes brain damaged. Is the brain a vehicle through which the soul communicates? Does a soul develop consciousness along with the brain? There simply isn't enough information right now to answer these types of metaphysical questions adequately.

Actually there isnt ANY information regarding the existence of magic (soul).


We definitely would not be able to confirm the claim that the brain is the sole source of all consciousness right now.

Consider, for example, that we believe that the soul leaves the body during sleep when someone dreams. Does that mean that a body can still seemingly operate without a soul? Where are the dream-visions taking place - in the brain or soul or both? There is still much to explore in the soul-mind link.


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So let me get this strait. The top minds on the planet (the people who make your intelligence laughable) cannot yet figure out exactly how the brain functions, but you know that there is a magic "soul" that makes us work?
That is like handing a caveman a Cisco Series 7 Router, asking him to reverse engineer it, then him handing it back to you saying magic makes it work, and it's main CPU and memory are in the Ethernet cable. What's funny is that if 6 million people actually thought that - you would be one of them.

burnedfish
07-10-2010, 08:13 AM
trying to figure out how consciousness emerges is a funny question to ask when the phenomenon itself is not understood. Sure it will help to understand it if we can figure out when "it" appears, but if we are unclear exactly what "it" is we are looking for to present its genesis, it will only make the search more difficult. I am not saying it is a futile or unprofitable endeavor, but I think greater strides in understanding consciousness will be achieved in examining persons who can react, speak, and evaluate to direct experimentation.

It will be somewhat analogous to current research examining consciousness in animals. The greatest hurdle is their inability to communicate effectively. For example, there was an experiment done using bonobos I believe. There is a phenomenon called binocular rivalry effect where when shown, for example, a face to the right hemisphere, and an image of a sun to the left, conscious awareness of the images will alternate between the sun and face every 1 to up to 10 seconds. This is despite, when indicating the sun is in awareness, the neurons independently shown to process facial recognitinon are still firing. But not all of them, only about 20% if I recall. But when the face is in awareness, the other 80% show activity. All this to say there was neural pathways that correlated with conscious vs. unconscious visual processing.

Important to note, however, is that it is unclear if these neurons give rise to the consciousness, are part of a larger meta-circuitry for consciousness, or if they are pre-causal to consciousness. All this to say that when the bonobos where given the same experiment, the challenge was to differentiate when the sun or the face was in conscious awareness. They can't tell us verbally, so the researchers first trained them to press a button for faces and a button for suns. The problem here lies in the fact that it is shown that even when stimuli are below reported consciousness, subjects can perform well above chance on visual identifications tasks. Furthermore, the learning curves of the bonobo are extremely similar to the learning curves of operant conditioned rats. So we cannot assume the bonobo suddenly understands the experimenter's intent and thinks "Oh, I get it, when I see suns I press this button, and similarly for the faces." Instead, the bonobos show gradual improvement in the task over time, rather than abrupt melioration that would indicate insight.

This just to show one difficulty of researching consciousness in non-verbal animals, which would include fetuses.

sorry for the long post, this is just right up my alley of interests and find it absolutely fascinating :)

brighamw
07-10-2010, 08:18 AM
Not gonna lie, when I quickly scanned thread title I thought it said "The Life Of Brian"

:D



WlBiLNN1NhQ&hl

fuggit
07-10-2010, 08:44 AM
trying to figure out how consciousness emerges is a funny question to ask when the phenomenon itself is not understood. Sure it will help to understand it if we can figure out when "it" appears, but if we are unclear exactly what "it" is we are looking for to present its genesis, it will only make the search more difficult. I am not saying it is a futile or unprofitable endeavor, but I think greater strides in understanding consciousness will be achieved in examining persons who can react, speak, and evaluate to direct experimentation.

It will be somewhat analogous to current research examining consciousness in animals. The greatest hurdle is their inability to communicate effectively. For example, there was an experiment done using bonobos I believe. There is a phenomenon called binocular rivalry effect where when shown, for example, a face to the right hemisphere, and an image of a sun to the left, conscious awareness of the images will alternate between the sun and face every 1 to up to 10 seconds. This is despite, when indicating the sun is in awareness, the neurons independently shown to process facial recognitinon are still firing. But not all of them, only about 20% if I recall. But when the face is in awareness, the other 80% show activity. All this to say there was neural pathways that correlated with conscious vs. unconscious visual processing.

Important to note, however, is that it is unclear if these neurons give rise to the consciousness, are part of a larger meta-circuitry for consciousness, or if they are pre-causal to consciousness. All this to say that when the bonobos where given the same experiment, the challenge was to differentiate when the sun or the face was in conscious awareness. They can't tell us verbally, so the researchers first trained them to press a button for faces and a button for suns. The problem here lies in the fact that it is shown that even when stimuli are below reported consciousness, subjects can perform well above chance on visual identifications tasks. Furthermore, the learning curves of the bonobo are extremely similar to the learning curves of operant conditioned rats. So we cannot assume the bonobo suddenly understands the experimenter's intent and thinks "Oh, I get it, when I see suns I press this button, and similarly for the faces." Instead, the bonobos show gradual improvement in the task over time, rather than abrupt melioration that would indicate insight.

This just to show one difficulty of researching consciousness in non-verbal animals, which would include fetuses.

sorry for the long post, this is just right up my alley of interests and find it absolutely fascinating :)



lol @ you trying to mix reality and magic.
If your religion was real, you already have all of your answers in your bible, stop trying to pull science into this - they have nothing to do with religion other than inadvertently refuting the chit out of it. Comparing religion to science is like comparing a horse drawn carriage with one wheel pulled by a three legged horse to the entire US Space program.
Science doesn't give a chit about religion, but religion sure cares about science due to them once again, inadvertently convincing their customers that magic isn't real.
On the "soul"...
There is no more proof there is a "soul" than there is proof that Luke Skywalker from Star Wars was a real life person. Why is it so easy for you to accept that Luke is fiction, but cannot grasp that religion is pre-professional movie theater fiction?
Shall we debate the inner workings of the light saber while we are at it?
You know, I hear they are a real biitch to assemble - apparently you blow yourself up if you don't align the crystal properly!

burnedfish
07-10-2010, 09:00 AM
lol @ you trying to mix reality and magic.
If your religion was real, you already have all of your answers in your bible, stop trying to pull science into this - they have nothing to do with religion other than inadvertently refuting the chit out of it. Comparing religion to science is like comparing a horse drawn carriage with one wheel pulled by a three legged horse to the entire US Space program.
Science doesn't give a chit about religion, but religion sure cares about science due to them once again, inadvertently convincing their customers that magic isn't real.
On the "soul"...
There is no more proof there is a "soul" than there is proof that Luke Skywalker from Star Wars was a real life person. Why is it so easy for you to accept that Luke is fiction, but cannot grasp that religion is pre-professional movie theater fiction?
Shall we debate the inner workings of the light saber while we are at it?
You know, I hear they are a real biitch to assemble - apparently you blow yourself up if you don't align the crystal properly!

What in the world are you talking about? Where am I mixing magic into science? lol.

you didn't read the post did you :rolleyes:

fuggit
07-10-2010, 09:19 AM
What in the world are you talking about? Where am I mixing magic into science? lol.


The soul = magic. You are claiming that ghosts are real dude - falls under the "it's made of magic" category.


"Soul"
NOUN:
1. The animating and vital principle in humans, credited with the faculties of thought, action, and emotion and often conceived as an immaterial entity.
2. The spiritual nature of humans, regarded as immortal, separable from the body at death, and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.
3. The disembodied spirit of a dead human.



"Religion"
NOUN:
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.



"Magic"
NOUN:

1. The art that purports to control or forecast natural events, effects, or forces by invoking the supernatural.
2.
1. The practice of using charms, spells, or rituals to attempt to produce supernatural effects or control events in nature.
2. The charms, spells, and rituals so used.


^^^All the same chit. The only difference is that you think it's real while the rest of us know it's for entertainment purposes only - just like palm readers.

burnedfish
07-10-2010, 09:29 AM
The soul = magic. You are claiming that ghosts are real dude - falls under the "it's made of magic" category.


"Soul"
NOUN:
1. The animating and vital principle in humans, credited with the faculties of thought, action, and emotion and often conceived as an immaterial entity.
2. The spiritual nature of humans, regarded as immortal, separable from the body at death, and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.
3. The disembodied spirit of a dead human.



"Religion"
NOUN:
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.



"Magic"
NOUN:

1. The art that purports to control or forecast natural events, effects, or forces by invoking the supernatural.
2.
1. The practice of using charms, spells, or rituals to attempt to produce supernatural effects or control events in nature.
2. The charms, spells, and rituals so used.


^^^All the same chit. The only difference is that you think it's real while the rest of us know it's for entertainment purposes only - just like palm readers.

Not once did I even use the word soul! I wrote about the science behind consciousness and our current shortcommings. I have no idea where you are getting this from, lulz!

Please quote where in my post I mentioned anything other than science. Enlighten me.

fuggit
07-10-2010, 09:49 AM
Not once did I even use the word soul! I wrote about the science behind consciousness and our current shortcommings. I have no idea where you are getting this from, lulz!

Please quote where in my post I mentioned anything other than science. Enlighten me.

lmao - I'm such a stoner retard - I quoted the wrong dude. HAHAHA - sorry dude. I'm blaming this on the Jack Herer I'm enjoying right now. lulz

burnedfish
07-10-2010, 09:52 AM
lmao - I'm such a stoner retard - I quoted the wrong dude. HAHAHA - sorry dude. I'm blaming this on the Jack Herer I'm enjoying right now. lulz

lol! I was starting to assume that! lol! no worries.

user5145
07-10-2010, 11:15 AM
http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/article/834401--the-life-of-the-brain-beginnings

A range of research, particularly the creation of non-invasive imaging technologies, will soon allow scientists to peer inside a developing human brain. The goal is to understand how it develops from a sheet of cells to a 380-gram mass about the size of a squash ball in the span of nine months. And how that infant brain is primed to see, smell, taste, feel, hear and understand her world.

Along the way, scientists hope to soon find answers to two critical questions. When does a fetus become conscious? And how does the fetal environment influence the way a baby's brain develops?

Answering the first question will satisfy our innate curiosity about how life begins. The second question, once parsed out, has the potential to change how society prevents disease

...

“You know, we don't really know anything beyond how a brain develops,” Morshead says. “We understand the physical structure and we're learning about development. But we don't know much about function.”

More simply: We think we know how a brain is made, but we know very little about why it is made this particular way.

...

One hundred years ago, doctors described neural anatomy in terms of information travelling between brain regions along a single path, like phone lines connecting houses or trains travelling along tracks. Now, the common analogy is a series of mini computer circuits.

But the way our brain works surely is infinitely more complex. There are few comparisons in the manmade world, never mind in the universe, to the tangle of cells housed in our skull's bony box that leads to memory, emotion and consciousness.

...

Many fetal experts say it is too early to discuss the topic because scientists have yet to fully define consciousness in adults. That infants and fetuses cannot talk, share their emotions or describe their experiences is another obstacle to defining when they might become conscious during development.



The bolded really makes no sense to me. The tangle of cells housed in our skulls is part of the universe, just like everything else. Why do people insist on differentiating between ourselves and the universe? We are the same thing.

But this is interesting.

SYRIANKID
07-10-2010, 11:23 AM
The bolded really makes no sense to me. The tangle of cells housed in our skulls is part of the universe, just like everything else. Why do people insist on differentiating between ourselves and the universe? We are the same thing.

But this is interesting.

I don't think they were distinguishing between the brain and the rest of the universe; they're just saying that it's difficult to find an analogy for the brain with something else in the universe - whether natural or man-made.

user5145
07-10-2010, 11:27 AM
I don't think they were distinguishing between the brain and the rest of the universe; they're just saying that it's difficult to find an analogy for the brain with something else in the universe - whether natural or man-made.

Yeah, they are looking for a comparison. But the way it is written still implies a sense of separation, IMO