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IAmDevinVenn
06-20-2010, 02:06 PM
Alright i am completely stumped on what carbs to put in my whey isolate post workout, i am only 120 lbs so i use 25 g whey isolate,2 bananas, and 2.5g creatine in my shake. recently ive been reading and found that fructose (fruit sugar) (from the bananas) isnt the best choice for a PWO carb. So i am wondering would malto and dextrose be a better option maybe 25g of each with 25g of whey isolate following my workout. i dont want to over do the insulin spike i just am really confused and would like some help, thanks.

AnabolicFyre
06-20-2010, 02:13 PM
Yea bananas are not the best for post workout due to the fact that they don't seem to refill muscle glycogen only liver glycogen. The dextrose or malto. is deff. the better option. I would do around 40grams of the fast carbs though, and i would up the protein to maybe 30grams. The 40 grams is a rough estimate because the amount of glycogen the muscle can hold in the average adult male is 40 grams, that's the reason for that. I see you only weigh 120lbs but still, i think it would benefit you better, oh and the creatine you should be takin at least 5 grams post workout due to the fact that the body can only absorb roughly 3 grams at a time. Good luck bro.

Rodzilla
06-20-2010, 03:33 PM
fruits are not entirely made up of fructose. True, fructose is better for restoring liver glycogen..which also needs to be done for energy, the other forms of carbohydrates will still be taken up by the muscle.

Here is nutrition data on a medium banana

Amounts Per Selected Serving
%DV
Total Carbohydrate
27.0
g
9%
Dietary Fiber
3.1
g
12%
Starch
6.3
g

Sugars
14.4
g

Sucrose
2820
mg

Glucose
5876
mg

Fructose
5723
mg

Lactose
0.0
mg

Maltose
11.8
mg

Galactose
0.0
mg

eating your banana is fine.

and insulin spike is not needed. Have whatever carbs you want PWO, I like cereal.

snorkelman
06-20-2010, 04:08 PM
Rodzilla is correct. There is no need to fear fruit post workout. And no, you do NOT need "fast" carbs post-workout.

AnabolicFyre
06-20-2010, 04:22 PM
If your talking for best results there is no need to take in empty calories from fruit, it's a waste. Why would you take in more bananas to even out the amount you'd get from 40 grams of dextrose or even any other carb, shyt eat 40grams of carbs worth of white rice. Even thats better then the excess calories you'd have to take from the banana to reach the proper amount of sugars MINUS the fructose for recovery, just wasteful. Also if dieting, this would be a complete waste. If you are bulking and can care less about excess spillage of calories and carbs do w/e the hell you want and have 50 banans post workout... Last time i checked though this was a bodybuilding forum, not Mens health.

iliketojuggle
06-20-2010, 04:30 PM
and insulin spike is not needed. Have whatever carbs you want PWO, I like cereal.

So that's why pro bodybuilders use insulin, because it doesn't matter, obviously..

snorkelman
06-20-2010, 04:32 PM
Do you even know what "empty calories" means? Are you actually telling me that eating a banana is giving you empty calories but using dextrose isn't? Sorry, but you got it back-asswards. Please post the nutritional data of a banana and compare it next to the nutritional data of dextrose.

Also, what do you mean "the proper amount of sugars" for recovery? Caution, I fully expect bro-science in your response. I gotta leave for the night, but I will check back in this thread tomorrow.

snorkelman
06-20-2010, 04:34 PM
So that's why pro bodybuilders use insulin, because it doesn't matter, obviously..

those levels of injected insulin is far above anything possible by taking dextrose or any other carb source. Completely apples and oranges. I think we are all talking about "spiking" insulin via some food/powder source ingested in the post-workout time period.

iliketojuggle
06-20-2010, 04:40 PM
those levels of injected insulin is far above anything possible by taking dextrose or any other carb source. Completely apples and oranges. I think we are all talking about "spiking" insulin via some food/powder source ingested in the post-workout time period.

Even if they are a lot greater, why not use simple carbs that spike it the highest amount possible, obviously it matters.

AnabolicFyre
06-20-2010, 04:43 PM
Do you even know what "empty calories" means? Are you actually telling me that eating a banana is giving you empty calories but using dextrose isn't? Sorry, but you got it back-asswards. Please post the nutritional data of a banana and compare it next to the nutritional data of dextrose.

Also, what do you mean "the proper amount of sugars" for recovery? Caution, I fully expect bro-science in your response. I gotta leave for the night, but I will check back in this thread tomorrow.

First off there is no bro-science in my posts....
Second off to get the same amount of carbs to refill glycogen with bananas as opposed to dextrose you will have a case of empty calories.
Since the fructuse from bananas and most fruits do not refill muscle glycogen, you'd have to take in more bananas to equal lets say 40grams of sugars that WILL replenish the muscle glycogen. Now with the dextrose or maltodextrin you will only need 40 grams, it is what it is. The 40 grams will be in its purest form, 160 calories only. The bananas you'll need to consume to get the same amount of 40 grams to restore your muscle glycogen will have to be around 2 or so. That will be excess calories, probabaly something around 220-260. Why would you take in 100 calories more, of wasteful calories that will most likely be stored as fat if bulking since you are already in a surplus in calories seeing as how they will come from sugars?? When you can just take in the proper amount restore you muscle glycogen and have 100 calories to spare that can go to protein or just not use them at all. As a bodybuilder you want to take in the perfect macros and amounts if you really want to be on point. This is more for while contest prepping as i already stated.

rhizome
06-20-2010, 05:07 PM
Strong BROscience in this thread. Fructose CAN indirectly restore muscle glycogen. Dextrose WILL also restore liver glycogen. Silly wabbits. Negs for you.

As for you insulin spiking foolz, you won't get ANYWHERE near the level that injecting it gets to and NO it won't matter.

AnabolicFyre
06-20-2010, 05:12 PM
Strong BROscience in this thread. Fructose CAN indirectly restore muscle glycogen. Dextrose WILL also restore liver glycogen. Silly wabbits. Negs for you.

As for you insulin spiking foolz, you won't get ANYWHERE near the level that injecting it gets to and NO it won't matter.

Once again we're talking about best results here. Fructose will NOT restore muscle glycogen anywhere near the rate that dextrose or maltodextrin will... As for dextrose restoring liver glycogen as well, Ok lol what's your point? i never said it would'nt. If you read through the thread you'd see we are talking about PWO (hench the thread title...). After lifiting you should be more worried about restoring muscle glycogen which is what you use to fuel workouts...

codys182
06-20-2010, 05:29 PM
I would read the sticky that was created by alan aragon about pre, during, and post workout nutrition. He proposes that the high GI carbs after workouts are unnecessary, and that postworkout is the opportune time to surge your body with more nutrients, as they are needed after a workout. After reading thoroughly through the discussion...I changed my post workout carbs from dextrose/whey only to a combination of protein/oats/dextrose/1c skim milk...also, I added a significant amount of calories surrounding my workouts entirely, in the form of carbs and protein, while limiting fats...and both my workouts and recovery have improved tremendously. I encourage you to look over this sticky as well, and then experiment yourself. Personally, my post workout shake has about 35-40g protein (whey+milk), 30 g oats, and 30g dextrose, and then around 10 extra carbs from the milk itself...

codys182
06-20-2010, 05:33 PM
Also, its important to note that if you do change your calories surrounding your workout, that your daily macros remain the same...so you would have to adjust elsewhere in your daily routine to make up for the cals.

getgot211
06-20-2010, 05:35 PM
First off there is no bro-science in my posts....


lol, try again.

AnabolicFyre
06-20-2010, 05:54 PM
lol, try again.

It's not broscience when you listen to seminars about the topics disscused and hear these answers from doctors, scientist and leading dieticians/nutritionists that are behind most of these diets. You're about as ignorant as the next. But i bet you think doctors and scientists are 'bros' too... please man save it.

ilove2run
06-20-2010, 06:00 PM
It's not broscience when you listen to seminars about the topics disscused and hear these answers from doctors, scientist and leading dieticians/nutritionists that are behind most of these diets. You're about as ignorant as the next. But i bet you think doctors and scientists are 'bros' too... please man save it.

Links to said specialists?

AnabolicFyre
06-20-2010, 06:12 PM
Links to said specialists?

Check out Lyle McDonalds site, i bet most should know who he is on these forums. The information you'll get from his articles are priceless. (Unless you plan on buying one of his books lol.)

bodyrecomposition.com

getgot211
06-20-2010, 06:16 PM
Lmfao

edit: next you're gonna tell us Alan Aragon told you to consume copious amounts of dextrose PWO, probably even told you to pick some up at a beer/wine supply store...:D

AnabolicFyre
06-20-2010, 06:25 PM
Who's Alan Aragon??

Ellie5
06-20-2010, 06:35 PM
If you want to be sure and get OPTIMAL results, take dextrose/malto for rapid absorption.

If you want to be confused and unsure just take your bananas/fruits/oats/rice

RealMenDeadLift
06-20-2010, 08:18 PM
1. Up to an hour PWO, translocation of GLUT4 aids glucose uptake independently of insulin mediation. Besides, granted you have a pre-WO meal, insulin levels will be far above baseline already.

2. Natural athletes come NOWHERE near the pharmacological doses that pros inject. We aren't even on the same planet.

3. Insulin is only permissive when it comes to muscle protein synthesis, it doesn't drive it. What drives protein synthesis is protein intake and mechanical load. Only a small elevation of insulin is needed to have this permissive effect.

4. Restoring liver glycogen is just as important as refilling muscle glycogen. Elevated liver glycogen is a MAJOR anabolic signal.

ilove2run
06-20-2010, 08:53 PM
1. Up to an hour PWO, translocation of GLUT4 aids glucose uptake independently of insulin mediation. Besides, granted you have a pre-WO meal, insulin levels will be far above baseline already.

2. Natural athletes come NOWHERE near the pharmacological doses that pros inject. We aren't even on the same planet.

3. Insulin is only permissive when it comes to muscle protein synthesis, it doesn't drive it. What drives protein synthesis is protein intake and mechanical load. Only a small elevation of insulin is needed to have this permissive effect.

4. Restoring liver glycogen is just as important as refilling muscle glycogen. Elevated liver glycogen is a MAJOR anabolic signal.

Just going to throw this out their as a sorta dumb-thought lol................



BUT



Doesn't even sugar-free gum raise INSULIN.................just curious :)

dsuhiti
06-20-2010, 09:08 PM
Brahs just a question. How much dextrose powder should I tak post workout? 40 grams?

Rodzilla
06-20-2010, 09:42 PM
Even if they are a lot greater, why not use simple carbs that spike it the highest amount possible, obviously it matters.

no, it doesn't. Are you familiar with how glucose is transported? The rate at which you replenish is not going to matter unless you have several exhaustive bouts of exercise within a few hours of each other; otherwise, the muscle's aren't picky. They'll replenish with oats just as well as they will with dextrose, and the oats offer the additional benefit of micronutrients.

colest
06-20-2010, 09:49 PM
what about if i add a scoop of choc chip fudge ice cream to my shake?

CLandry
06-20-2010, 10:06 PM
bananas are complex carbs by the way....just throwing that out there

cbos
06-20-2010, 10:21 PM
theres alot of bro-science on the forums these days, banana is fine if you want to add it to your usual post workout meal if your workout is early in the day if its late I'd cut it out

IAmDevinVenn
06-21-2010, 04:30 AM
this is why i am still confused, but thank you to everyone that tried, :/ so far what has helped me the most is 40 grams dex PWO, but should i do that or 20 g maltodextrin and 20g dextrose?

IAmDevinVenn
06-21-2010, 04:31 AM
fruits are not entirely made up of fructose. True, fructose is better for restoring liver glycogen..which also needs to be done for energy, the other forms of carbohydrates will still be taken up by the muscle.

Here is nutrition data on a medium banana

Amounts Per Selected Serving
%DV
Total Carbohydrate
27.0
g
9%
Dietary Fiber
3.1
g
12%
Starch
6.3
g

Sugars
14.4
g

Sucrose
2820
mg

Glucose
5876
mg

Fructose
5723
mg

Lactose
0.0
mg

Maltose
11.8
mg

Galactose
0.0
mg

eating your banana is fine.

and insulin spike is not needed. Have whatever carbs you want PWO, I like cereal.

thank you but another problem with that, isnt 3 grams fiber PWO not the best idea? im looking for the best carb source PWO, im trying to optimize my diet, thank you

AnabolicFyre
06-21-2010, 05:16 AM
thank you but another problem with that, isnt 3 grams fiber PWO not the best idea? im looking for the best carb source PWO, im trying to optimize my diet, thank you

If you are looking for the BEST source, go with your 40 grams dextrose, malto, even waxy maize starch.
Or if you want an OK source you can do 40 grams from of fruity pebbles, 40 grams from bananas and apples, shyt how about 40 grams from tootsie rolls or skittles....?
The point is if you want to assure you take in the best, go with the fast carbs since they're in their purest form.

rhizome
06-21-2010, 06:48 AM
thank you but another problem with that, isnt 3 grams fiber PWO not the best idea? im looking for the best carb source PWO, im trying to optimize my diet, thank you
you're worried about 3 grams of fiber lol ????

http://maureenholland.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/ohmygod.jpg

bseidl
06-21-2010, 07:02 AM
If you are looking for the BEST source, go with your 40 grams dextrose, malto, even waxy maize starch.
Or if you want an OK source you can do 40 grams from of fruity pebbles, 40 grams from bananas and apples, shyt how about 40 grams from tootsie rolls or skittles....?
The point is if you want to assure you take in the best, go with the fast carbs since they're in their purest form.


http://www.mediabistro.com/agencyspy/original/Homer%20Simpson%20Oh%20No.jpg

RealMenDeadLift
06-21-2010, 07:56 AM
If you are looking for the BEST source, go with your 40 grams dextrose, malto, even waxy maize starch.
Or if you want an OK source you can do 40 grams from of fruity pebbles, 40 grams from bananas and apples, shyt how about 40 grams from tootsie rolls or skittles....?
The point is if you want to assure you take in the best, go with the fast carbs since they're in their purest form.

Read my post on the first page

snorkelman
06-21-2010, 07:58 AM
If you are looking for the BEST source, go with your 40 grams dextrose, malto, even waxy maize starch.
Or if you want an OK source you can do 40 grams from of fruity pebbles, 40 grams from bananas and apples, shyt how about 40 grams from tootsie rolls or skittles....?
The point is if you want to assure you take in the best, go with the fast carbs since they're in their purest form.

bro, you are always going to remain in the red if you continue to post like this in the nutrition section. If you intend to avoid getting negged, you should explain why you think that dextrose, maltodextrin or WMS is the best carb source. What does "purest form" even mean in relation to this topic? It appears as if your sole goal is to create the largest insulin spike you can. Is that correct? Do you even know how much of an elevation is desirable for your purposes (whatever they may be) in the post-workout time frame?

AnabolicFyre
06-21-2010, 08:38 AM
bro, you are always going to remain in the red if you continue to post like this in the nutrition section. If you intend to avoid getting negged, you should explain why you think that dextrose, maltodextrin or WMS is the best carb source. What does "purest form" even mean in relation to this topic? It appears as if your sole goal is to create the largest insulin spike you can. Is that correct? Do you even know how much of an elevation is desirable for your purposes (whatever they may be) in the post-workout time frame?

I've already explained everything your asking in all my posts in this thread. As far as trying to get the largest insulin spike, i never said that, i also included waxy maize in my options for post workout carb source, seeing as how waxy maize does'nt cause an insulin spike i don't see how you could take what i said in that way.

AnabolicFyre
06-21-2010, 08:39 AM
Oh and i hope nobody really took THIS serious
"Or if you want an OK source you can do 40 grams from of fruity pebbles, 40 grams from bananas and apples, shyt how about 40 grams from tootsie rolls or skittles....? "

It was clearly meant as a joke....

ilove2run
06-21-2010, 08:47 AM
I've already explained everything your asking in all my posts in this thread. As far as trying to get the largest insulin spike, i never said that, i also included waxy maize in my options for post workout carb source, seeing as how waxy maize does'nt cause an insulin spike i don't see how you could take what i said in that way.

Not trying to be rude, but yes it does lol????

Everything that you eat raises Insulin bud.

AnabolicFyre
06-21-2010, 09:24 AM
Not trying to be rude, but yes it does lol????

Everything that you eat raises Insulin bud.

Im talking about an insulin spike compared to malto and dextro, its not even close.

rhizome
06-21-2010, 09:38 AM
WTF is an insulin spike??? Like numbers??? This is the ONLY question for which an answer alludes me.

alan aragon
06-21-2010, 10:26 AM
If you are looking for the BEST source, go with your 40 grams dextrose, malto, even waxy maize starch.
Or if you want an OK source you can do 40 grams from of fruity pebbles, 40 grams from bananas and apples, shyt how about 40 grams from tootsie rolls or skittles....?
The point is if you want to assure you take in the best, go with the fast carbs since they're in their purest form.You know a post is bad when you wonder if it's just an ingenius troll-job.