PDA

View Full Version : One last thing that Kobe has to achieve before becoming GOAT



gouscfootball
06-19-2010, 02:23 AM
Beating Lebron in the finals. That will seal the argument imo so lets all hope lechoke can finally make it back to the finals to be schooled by the real king. I will be rooting for the bulls or the knicks next year in the east.

SgSpartan
06-19-2010, 03:01 AM
I rather the Celtics make the Finals again and we have a Lakers-Celtics match up again, but I have to agree with you. Until Kobe beats the crap out of LeBron, this will be a point of interest.

Negatron617
06-19-2010, 03:01 AM
playoff game winners at the buzzer

stop coming off as fake and trying too hard to please everybody

shave head

develop gambling problem

win more rings.....go back to prime and retire only to come back again and win

OH10
06-19-2010, 03:04 AM
he has to win 6 rings while being the FIRST option
6 MVP's
6 Finals MVP's
10 scoring titles

etc

gtfo, kobe will never be the goat

2slik
06-19-2010, 03:12 AM
Actually be better than Jordan....................................

Ephedra
06-19-2010, 03:16 AM
LOL if you think Lebron is going to make it to the Finals anytime soon if he goes to the Knicks or Bulls.


If dude couldn't do it with last season's lineup (having the best record in the NBA to top it off) he ain't doing it right off the bat with a new team.

SgSpartan
06-19-2010, 03:18 AM
he has to win 6 rings while being the FIRST option
6 MVP's
6 Finals MVP's
10 scoring titles

etc

gtfo, kobe will never be the goat

I seriously wish people would stop saying that. Kobe entered the league after high-school, and in those days, no one would build a team around a high-school player. Then it was rare to make such a jump. Kobe entered a good team, and the team was not built around him.

It's like saying Pippen's 6 rings shouldn't count as he won them as a second guy.

Fastforward7
06-19-2010, 07:51 AM
It's like saying Pippen's 6 rings shouldn't count as he won them as a second guy.

No one's saying Kobe's rings don't count. They're saying his rings aren't a compelling argument for him being the GOAT since he wasn't even the best player on his team for 3 of them. Do you understand now?

FlexGunmetal
06-19-2010, 08:07 AM
No one's saying Kobe's rings don't count. They're saying his rings aren't a compelling argument for him being the GOAT since he wasn't even the best player on his team for 3 of them. Do you understand now?
This

tmc.
06-19-2010, 08:51 AM
I seriously wish people would stop saying that. Kobe entered the league after high-school, and in those days, no one would build a team around a high-school player. Then it was rare to make such a jump. Kobe entered a good team, and the team was not built around him.

It's like saying Pippen's 6 rings shouldn't count as he won them as a second guy.

lol, it's not like Jordan immediately came into the league with hall of famers around him

Propulsion
06-19-2010, 09:58 AM
Haters gon hate.

Kobe is reaching Jordan's realm of championships. We're gonna see a lot of insecure jordan fans come out the woodwork.

FlexGunmetal
06-19-2010, 10:00 AM
Haters gon hate.

Kobe is reaching Jordan's realm of championships. We're gonna see a lot of insecure jordan fans come out the woodwork.

That thread already happened.

Ammo is closing in too, only 4 more!!!!

Fastforward7
06-19-2010, 10:02 AM
Haters gon hate.

Kobe is reaching Jordan's realm of championships. We're gonna see a lot of insecure jordan fans come out the woodwork.

Why? There's lots of players with as many or more rings than Jordan already. Rings /= superiority.

SgSpartan
06-19-2010, 10:12 AM
Why? There's lots of players with as many or more rings than Jordan already. Rings /= superiority.

Not exactly. Rings will always be part of the measurement. I mean it is hard to say that Barkley is the best PF when he has never won a ring. The greatest reach the top, and the top is rings. Yes, plenty of great players have never won a ring, but when you want to talk about GOAT, then rings will be a huge factor.

I OuTsiDeR I
06-19-2010, 11:42 AM
Not exactly. Rings will always be part of the measurement. I mean it is hard to say that Barkley is the best PF when he has never won a ring. The greatest reach the top, and the top is rings. Yes, plenty of great players have never won a ring, but when you want to talk about GOAT, then rings will be a huge factor. Rings will be a factor but there are ALOT of other factors to when talking about the GOAT.

Like someone mentioned. Jordan did it as the LEADER of the team.

Jordan as leader 6 rings

Kobe as leader 2 rings

Jordan did not need the next best player in the league on his team to win. Pippen was good but he aint no prime Shaq.

Jordan was the primary post player in their offense not a dominating center.

People were allowed to play tougher defense in Jordans era. Kobe's era the rules favor the offensive player.

Jordan's supporting cast looked much weaker especially in his last championships than Kobe's current team.

This just makes Jordan's accomplishments look even greater compared to Kobe. Rings matter but when comparing to be the GOAT, look at everything.

ezra76
06-19-2010, 11:49 AM
He's getting closer to overtaking Shaq's spot on GOAT list, I'll give him that.

sherm24
06-19-2010, 11:50 AM
Beating Lebron in the finals. That will seal the argument imo so lets all hope lechoke can finally make it back to the finals to be schooled by the real king. I will be rooting for the bulls or the knicks next year in the east.

lollll do u watch sports? its too late for him to be the goat...srs...the numbers dont lie brah,,,u amaze me with that statement

PatrickBateman1
06-19-2010, 11:53 AM
The GOAT? Kobe is probably one of the top 5 players of all time but we all know there is only one GOAT and he is in a class of his own.

I OuTsiDeR I
06-19-2010, 11:58 AM
He's getting closer to overtaking Shaq's spot on GOAT list, I'll give him that. I think hes overtaken him already. But when they win next year too its a gurantee and I would put him only behind MJ.

ChillNoWork
06-19-2010, 11:59 AM
The thought that Jordan is untouchable is ludicrous.

Sure he's the greatest to ever play (as of now), but back in his day zone defense wasn't allowed, so Jordan, being the best one-on-one player, could pretty much score whenever he wanted--whether it be driving in or shooting.

Kobe's the best one-on-one player right now, and I would argue the best ever (yes, better one-on-one player than Jordan). Take away zone defense in the NBA today, which is primarily why Boston's defense is the best in the league, and Kobe drops 40 with ease; heck, Lebron and Wade would probably do well too, but Kobe would be better because of his jumpshot.

That said, Kobe learned all of his sh!t from Jordan, so I guess I'll always look at Jordan as a player who'll overarch Kobe.

PatrickBateman1
06-19-2010, 12:02 PM
The thought that Jordan is untouchable is ludicrous.

Sure he's the greatest to ever play (as of now), but back in his day zone defense wasn't allowed, so Jordan, being the best one-on-one player, could pretty much score whenever he wanted--whether it be driving in or shooting.

Kobe's the best one-on-one player right now, and I would argue the best ever (yes, better one-on-one player than Jordan). Take away zone defense in the NBA today, which is primarily why Boston's defense is the best in the league, and Kobe drops 40 with ease; heck, Lebron and Wade would probably do well too, but Kobe would be better because of his jumpshot.

That said, Kobe learned all of his sh!t from Jordan, so I guess I'll always look at Jordan as a player who'll overarch Kobe.

But back in the day they actually played defense (as opposed to whatever the hell pussy crap they do now). Jordan was the GOAT because of his mentality and killer instinct, but because of a defensive scheme. Not saying he's untouchable or that we'll never see anyone that can be compared, but nobody in the NBA right now is even close.

Also... Age: 18... you never even saw him play man.

PatrickBateman1
06-19-2010, 12:04 PM
Haters gon hate.

Kobe is reaching Jordan's realm of championships. We're gonna see a lot of insecure jordan fans come out the woodwork.

Location: Los Angeles

N.W.A
06-19-2010, 12:04 PM
I like how some Laker fans dont even think he is better than Magic. Which I personally think is ridiculous. But yeah I still dont see him up their with MJ.

ChillNoWork
06-19-2010, 12:05 PM
But back in the day they actually played defense (as opposed to whatever the hell pussy crap they do now). Jordan was the GOAT because of his mentality and killer instinct, but because of a defensive scheme. Not saying he's untouchable or that we'll never see anyone that can be compared, but nobody in the NBA right now is even close.

Also... Age: 18... you never even saw him play man.

One-on-one Kobe can take any defense.

miketheblade
06-19-2010, 12:27 PM
kobe gets 7 i think its a done deal IMO


in the end all the matters is championships

sherm24
06-19-2010, 12:27 PM
cool then he will be as good as Horry

I OuTsiDeR I
06-19-2010, 12:28 PM
The thought that Jordan is untouchable is ludicrous.

Sure he's the greatest to ever play (as of now), but back in his day zone defense wasn't allowed, so Jordan, being the best one-on-one player, could pretty much score whenever he wanted--whether it be driving in or shooting.

Kobe's the best one-on-one player right now, and I would argue the best ever (yes, better one-on-one player than Jordan). Take away zone defense in the NBA today, which is primarily why Boston's defense is the best in the league, and Kobe drops 40 with ease; heck, Lebron and Wade would probably do well too, but Kobe would be better because of his jumpshot.

That said, Kobe learned all of his sh!t from Jordan, so I guess I'll always look at Jordan as a player who'll overarch Kobe. Last time I checked Boston played man to man defense. Unless your playing a straight up 2-3 zone, you get called for defensive 3 secs. So there is no real argument for your zone defense.

While I feel Kobe has the best jumpshot, he relies on it WAY too much. He needs to drive alot more to get to the line instead of pulling up for shots. As great a scorer as Kobe is Jordan never had to work as hard because he was smarter. Kobe takes some TOUGH shots. For the most part he sinks them but he needs to learn how to choose smarter shots especially when he gets older.


One-on-one Kobe can take any defense. Practically any All-Stars can take anyone One-on-One. Kobe just has the most skill set out of all of them.

I OuTsiDeR I
06-19-2010, 12:34 PM
kobe gets 7 i think its a done deal IMO


in the end all the matters is championships If championships are everything, even if Kobe gets 7 thats still a long way from Bill Russell's 11.

So according to you Bill Russell is the GOAT.

Fastforward7
06-19-2010, 12:52 PM
One-on-one Kobe can take any defense.

Too bad NBA games aren't played 1 on 1. 2 on 1 Jordan could take any defense and occasionally 3 on 1.

ezra76
06-19-2010, 03:07 PM
Championships mean something but not everything. Jordan was a better scorer and a much better defender, hands down.

What's Kobe's shooting % vs. Jordan's? How many times did Jordan win the scoring title vs. times Kobe has?

Kobe is not even the best offensive player in the league right now, how could he be GOAT?

Edit- forget to mention defensive point. They signed Artest cover his man, nuff said.

fecalneek
06-19-2010, 03:13 PM
What? Kobe has to prove himself by beating a guy who fails in the playoffs every season?

Kobe has already secured his legacy. He literally has nothing left to prove besides improving the rest of his resume. People said he couldn't win a ring without Shaq. Wins a championship in 09. People said he lucked out by not having to face the Celtics and that his 09 championship was tainted. He beats the Celtics in 10'. Wins back to back Finals MVPs.

All he has to do now is keep winning just for the sake of climbing on the top 10 list.

fecalneek
06-19-2010, 03:18 PM
Last time I checked Boston played man to man defense. Unless your playing a straight up 2-3 zone, you get called for defensive 3 secs. So there is no real argument for your zone defense.

While I feel Kobe has the best jumpshot, he relies on it WAY too much. He needs to drive alot more to get to the line instead of pulling up for shots. As great a scorer as Kobe is Jordan never had to work as hard because he was smarter. Kobe takes some TOUGH shots. For the most part he sinks them but he needs to learn how to choose smarter shots especially when he gets older.

Practically any All-Stars can take anyone One-on-One. Kobe just has the most skill set out of all of them.

Boston doesn't just play man. They play a lot of floating zone and use double teams frequently on guys like Kobe. This Celtic team played the best defense I've ever seen on Kobe. They doubled him behind the 3 point line. You rarely saw this happen to Jordan. The majority of double teams Jordan faced were in the paint. For the most part he got single coverage on the perimeter. But because Jordan was so strong and good at getting to the rim he was still able to be effective. If Kobe was bigger and could get to the rim easier he would no doubt be on Jordan's level offensively but he has to make do with what he was given physically.

I OuTsiDeR I
06-19-2010, 03:43 PM
Boston doesn't just play man. They play a lot of floating zone and use double teams frequently on guys like Kobe. This Celtic team played the best defense I've ever seen on Kobe. They doubled him behind the 3 point line. You rarely saw this happen to Jordan. The majority of double teams Jordan faced were in the paint. For the most part he got single coverage on the perimeter. But because Jordan was so strong and good at getting to the rim he was still able to be effective. If Kobe was bigger and could get to the rim easier he would no doubt be on Jordan's level offensively but he has to make do with what he was given physically. Your floating zone is called good man to man defense with help. They only doubled Kobe in game 7 (which might have caught him off guard) this whole series they played him straight up like they did to Dwight. They doubled Kobe at the 3 towards the end of the game because no matter how bad he is playing he is always a threat, and they wanted someone else to make a play for L.A. Kobe has more range than Jordan so the double starts high at the 3 line.

They play the best defense because they are physical, aggressive, and play great team defense. No one guy is gonna stop Kobe. They play him straight up and if he beats that person someone rotates to crowd him or draw the charge.

Driving to the whole has nothing to do with size. Do you think Kevin Durant is the biggest guy thats why he drives and goes to the foul line more than anyone else? Is Kobe smaller than Durant?

Kobe has the best jumpshot in the game but he relies on it too much, where he takes tougher shots than he needs to.

MiscMessiah
06-19-2010, 03:47 PM
Boston doesn't just play man. They play a lot of floating zone and use double teams frequently on guys like Kobe. This Celtic team played the best defense I've ever seen on Kobe. They doubled him behind the 3 point line. You rarely saw this happen to Jordan. The majority of double teams Jordan faced were in the paint. For the most part he got single coverage on the perimeter. But because Jordan was so strong and good at getting to the rim he was still able to be effective. If Kobe was bigger and could get to the rim easier he would no doubt be on Jordan's level offensively but he has to make do with what he was given physically.

kobe was bigger than jordan

VernonWellsFargo
06-19-2010, 05:30 PM
lets not forget jordan was a 6-6 physical monster, kobe is a more finesse player. what woud happen if you give jordan the same physical attributes as kobe ?

fecalneek
06-19-2010, 05:38 PM
Your floating zone is called good man to man defense with help. They only doubled Kobe in game 7 (which might have caught him off guard) this whole series they played him straight up like they did to Dwight. They doubled Kobe at the 3 towards the end of the game because no matter how bad he is playing he is always a threat, and they wanted someone else to make a play for L.A. Kobe has more range than Jordan so the double starts high at the 3 line.

They play the best defense because they are physical, aggressive, and play great team defense. No one guy is gonna stop Kobe. They play him straight up and if he beats that person someone rotates to crowd him or draw the charge.

Driving to the whole has nothing to do with size. Do you think Kevin Durant is the biggest guy thats why he drives and goes to the foul line more than anyone else? Is Kobe smaller than Durant?

Kobe has the best jumpshot in the game but he relies on it too much, where he takes tougher shots than he needs to.

Only doubled Kobe in game 7? Just because the double doesn't get sent until Kobe makes his move doesn't mean he wasn't doubled. Went Boston wanted to force the ball out of Kobe's hands they sent another man every time. It was even worse when Kobe got into the paint, he frequently had 3 guys on him. Every time Kobe beat Ray or Tony Allen the paint would be so packed with additional defenders ready for him that it was almost impossible for him to get a good look at the rim.

As for Durant he is quick. Kobe is not so much anymore. And Durant still plays a lot on the perimeter and is excellent at getting to the FT line even off of jump shots with his swing through move.

I OuTsiDeR I
06-19-2010, 05:39 PM
lets not forget jordan was a 6-6 physical monster, kobe is a more finesse player. what woud happen if you give jordan the same physical attributes as kobe ? Jordan was a finesse player during his later championships.

Yes Jordan is slightly bigger than Kobe but he ain't a PHYSICAL MONSTER compared to Kobe.

Jordan would do the exact same thing as he did even with Kobe's built. He plays smart. Not saying kobe isn't smart, but Kobe chooses to be a jump shooter. He is great at it but at the same time makes it harder for himself at times.

fecalneek
06-19-2010, 05:40 PM
kobe was bigger than jordan

Jordan's defenders were not as strong or big as him. Kobe is going up against guys who are not physically inferior to him.

Also Jordan's hands made a big difference. He could protect the ball better than Kobe when going to the rim. Kobe can't do that. In fact Kobe said he can barely hold the ball unless his fingers are taped because of the injury.

IllPhill
06-19-2010, 05:54 PM
What? Kobe has to prove himself by beating a guy who fails in the playoffs every season?

Lol this. I STILL don't understand why everybody's on LeNuts after he failed two years in a row in which all the attention, praise, credit was given to him

I OuTsiDeR I
06-19-2010, 06:12 PM
Only doubled Kobe in game 7? Just because the double doesn't get sent until Kobe makes his move doesn't mean he wasn't doubled. Went Boston wanted to force the ball out of Kobe's hands they sent another man every time. It was even worse when Kobe got into the paint, he frequently had 3 guys on him. Every time Kobe beat Ray or Tony Allen the paint would be so packed with additional defenders ready for him that it was almost impossible for him to get a good look at the rim.

As for Durant he is quick. Kobe is not so much anymore. And Durant still plays a lot on the perimeter and is excellent at getting to the FT line even off of jump shots with his swing through move.

Driving to the paint and someone coming to help after the initial defender got beat isn't called a double team. Just like your floating zone, when really its a man to man w/great help defense, your example is horrible. A double team (or at least a good one)is when help comes before he is able to make his move. Blowing past Ray Allen and K.G coming over to help isn't a double team. Thats like saying Fisher, Brown, Odom commanded double and triple teams when they drove to the paint. Thats called sucking the defense in, then normally you go to score, get fouled, or kick to someone open. This is completely opposite from Kobe having the ball in the post, then sending another guy at him while he is still into his move (to get the ball out of his hands), he kicks it out and the ball is swung to the open player who scores. That is demanding a double team. Beating your man, driving to the basket and a help defender coming is NOT a double team.

Second if he would try to go straight at them after the drive trying to score, like Lebron and Wade, he will always go to the line. But at times Kobe expects to be fouled and tries to evade the defender, and he is still fading away while shooting instead of going right into them. Then he throws his arms up in the air for the call when they would give it to him if he went right at them. In game 7 Paul Pierce was doing that also but they weren't calling it. He was driving to get fouled not to score, so he flops his head back pretending he gets fouled (I'll admit some games they would call it and give it to him).

Yes Durant is quick but you don't have to be quick to drive to the basket. Look at Pierce, he looks like he plays in slow motion, yet he can get to the basket. Why? Because he has alot of weapons. You play off him he can shoot it. Since you need to respect his shot you play him tight, but he blows by you because you play too tight. He doesn't need to be that quick because you have to respect his shot. Who has a better offensive arsenal than Kobe, and your gonna tell me he can't get to the basket because he aint as quick as Durant?

Kobe does that exact same move he does when the defender sticks his arm out. Hell Ray Allen got called for it and Kobe shot 3 FT's.

I'm not saying Kobe should only drive but if he mixed it up he would make it alot easier on himself. Shooting FT's over trying to hit a far jumpshot with 2 ppl guarding you, or fading away out of bounds, pulling up 6 ft behind the normal 3 point line, pumping faking 20 times then shooting it with a hand in your face. He has made all those shots, and yes it is incredible to watch, but dang Kobe make it easier on yourself lol.

I OuTsiDeR I
06-19-2010, 06:17 PM
Jordan's defenders were not as strong or big as him. Kobe is going up against guys who are not physically inferior to him.

Also Jordan's hands made a big difference. He could protect the ball better than Kobe when going to the rim. Kobe can't do that. In fact Kobe said he can barely hold the ball unless his fingers are taped because of the injury.

How is Jordan's ears physically superior to Kobe's? What could Kobe accomplish with his Jordan's nose?

In all seriousness, yes Kobe is hurt, and that is gonna impact him. But he fell into being a jump shooter before he got hurt.

WEENIEHUTsr
06-19-2010, 06:26 PM
jordan is better than russel because of supporting casts

kobe is better than lebron cuz of rings

make up your fuking minds

neilsabo
06-19-2010, 06:27 PM
i think it's the other way around... lebron should beat kobe in the finals next year to even start building his legacy

then if he wins 2 or 3 more championships after that, we can start talking about putting lebron in kobe's league

rebelprettyboy
06-19-2010, 06:37 PM
No one's saying Kobe's rings don't count. They're saying his rings aren't a compelling argument for him being the GOAT since he wasn't even the best player on his team for 3 of them. Do you understand now?


Lol his rings arent compelling...
wat was Shaq doing before got the throne?