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View Full Version : No "greatest player ever" in football, but there is in basketball/baseball. Why?



Heisman2
06-01-2010, 08:13 AM
The vast majority of people believe Michael Jordan was the greatest basketball player ever. If not him, then Magic Johnson. In baseball, many believe it was Babe Ruth (amazing hitter and pitcher), some believe it was Barry Bonds, and other names are sprinkled in such as Mays. In football, I've never heard anybody say a certain player was the greatest ever.

Obviously, in football, positions are very rigid, but they are in baseball as well. However, hitting is a fairly equal opportunity among all baseball players (excepting being pitchers), while there is no similar equal opportunity for football.

With basketball, there is definitely some flexibility between point/shooting guard and small forward, but those positions seem fairly distinct from power forward (excepting being Dirk and players like him), and they all seem very distinct from center.

Is it possible to say there is a best baseball player when it's so hard to normalize across fielding positions? Same goes for basketball, where I don't see a realistic way to compare a point guard to a center. Any thoughts?

IraHays
06-01-2010, 08:15 AM
What do you mean? Emmitt Smith was the greatest NFL player ever, this is fact.

Dennis71
06-01-2010, 08:17 AM
What do you mean? Jamarcus Russell was the greatest NFL player ever, this is fact.

fixed

cmurray
06-01-2010, 08:18 AM
It's hard to breakdown football because there are so many positions.

IraHays
06-01-2010, 08:19 AM
fixed

I didn't name Russell because he is still active. It is true he is the best active player right now, but he may get an injury and have a short career.

Fastforward7
06-01-2010, 08:20 AM
Because one guy can play the game completely in basketball and no one person can in football. This really isn't that difficult.

Heisman2
06-01-2010, 08:25 AM
Because one guy can play the game completely in basketball and no one person can in football. This really isn't that difficult.

Good point.

So what do you think about my last question regarding comparing point guards to centers?

Messiahtype
06-01-2010, 08:28 AM
Basketball is not that stark a difference in positions.

Comparing a MLB to a C to a QB? A little bit different than comparing a Guard and forward.

As far as baseball, I think people separate into pitcher and hitter(Koufax and Bonds for me). As long as a player fields there position with some competency, defense doesn't get taken into consideration all that much.

Mistermidas
06-01-2010, 08:30 AM
It's hard to breakdown football because there are so many positions.

This. Because in basketball, baseball....emphasis is placed on scoring. MJ was the most effective scorer ever, so people regard him as the best. In baseball, not sure who people consider to be the best player ever, especially if steriod use is/isnt considered. But it'd fall along the lines of Barry Bonds, Mark McGuire, Ken Griffey Jr, etc....because they swung the bats the best. With football, its way too many positions and 2 sides to consider. You can have an awesome QB, but an even better WR on a team. Whose better, since the WR needs the QB to get him the ball, but once he gets it he makes big plays with it all the time? You can have a great RB, and a guard thats even better. The RB might be quick, fast, powerful....but he aint going nowhere without that guard and the rest of the line blocking for him. And then all the positions on the defense. If a CB gets 15 pics a year and returns 5 of em for TDs, or a D-End gets 25 sacks with 10 forced fumbles....who had the better year? Just way too much to consider with football for there to be a greatest player.

CarpeD1em500
06-01-2010, 08:32 AM
Is it possible to say there is a best baseball player when it's so hard to normalize across fielding positions? Same goes for basketball, where I don't see a realistic way to compare a point guard to a center. Any thoughts?

The best player in basketball will have played and excelled at PG and Center (and everything in between) at some points in game.

Just watch games when Jordan runs the triangle, or switches off on someone to get a stop, or w.e.

LeBron is a "point forward." D.Fish has Kobe take the ball from him about half the time before they even hit the midcourt line.




This stuff happens in basketball. You don't see a 1st basemen calling out his manager in the 9th and saying "coach, we need 2 outs here, put me on the mound, I got this..."

Just like QBs dont take over the Safety spot when they need a defensive stop.

Navillus13
06-01-2010, 08:34 AM
This. Because in basketball, baseball....emphasis is placed on scoring. MJ was the most effective scorer ever, so people regard him as the best. In baseball, not sure who people consider to be the best player ever, especially if steriod use is/isnt considered. But it'd fall along the lines of Barry Bonds, Mark McGuire, Ken Griffey Jr, etc....because they swung the bats the best. With football, its way too many positions and 2 sides to consider. You can have an awesome QB, but an even better WR on a team. Whose better, since the WR needs the QB to get him the ball, but once he gets it he makes big plays with it all the time? You can have a great RB, and a guard thats even better. The RB might be quick, fast, powerful....but he aint going nowhere without that guard and the rest of the line blocking for him. And then all the positions on the defense. If a CB gets 15 pics a year and returns 5 of em for TDs, or a D-End gets 25 sacks with 10 forced fumbles....who had the better year? Just way too much to consider with football for there to be a greatest player.

Jordan was also one of the best defenders of all time.

For football, you'd have to break it down by position

QB - Joe Montana / Peyton Manning
RB - Walter Payton / Emmitt Smith / Barry Sanders
WR - Jerry Rice (no question here)

etc..all IMO

futbolista89
06-01-2010, 08:39 AM
Jordan was also one of the best defenders of all time.

For football, you'd have to break it down by position

QB - Joe Montana / Peyton Manning
RB - Walter Payton / Emmitt Smith / Barry Sanders
WR - Jerry Rice (no question here)

etc..all IMO

LOL

Good job mentioning Emmit Smith and not Jim Brown (whom most consider the best player at any postiton, ever)

Mistermidas
06-01-2010, 08:42 AM
LOL

Good job mentioning Emmit Smith and not Jim Brown (whom most consider the best player at any postiton, ever)

Good job nitpickin at examples given to prove a point. And who is "most"? I damn sure dont consider him the best player at any position, and anybody who does is retarded. Maybe the best RB, but best PLAYER....EVER? Thats just dumb.

IraHays
06-01-2010, 08:43 AM
LOL

Good job mentioning Emmit Smith and not Jim Brown (whom most consider the best player at any postiton, ever)

And so it begins......

bbacn123
06-01-2010, 09:00 AM
I think baseball is one of the most disputed

Bonds
Ruth
Aaron
Williams
Mays
Cobb
Rose
Gherig
Mantle
Cy Young
Koufax
Ryan
Maddux
Clemens

You could probably make a case for any of these names being #1 and have a very valid argument. Even Griffey gets thrown in with the "had he not been injured" argument.

DL Addict
06-01-2010, 09:03 AM
And so it begins......

This...

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/scarjo_popcorn.gif

I agree with most of the above. You have to break it down by position, and even then you can have 5-10 guys at each position named. All are probably correct, or at least in the conversation. Example, I wouldn't put Emmitt in my top 5 RB, but would not argue with anyone who did...it's subjective, and partially biased when discussing NFL greats.

Max~Power
06-01-2010, 09:03 AM
becuase you will hear phrases like "greatest SS ever" or "greatest power hitter ever" or "greatest QB ever" or "greatest Linebacker ever"

They are greatest, but it's at thier trade, in the particular sport.

cor030
06-01-2010, 09:23 AM
Why do people still say Peyton Manning is even close to being the GOAT?

GOAT's don't throw a pick 6 in the 4th quarter when the game is on the line. Just sayin'

thegenerel
06-01-2010, 09:58 AM
LOL

Good job mentioning Emmit Smith and not Jim Brown (whom most consider the best player at any postiton, ever)

most people?

most people have never even seen Jim Brown play, let alone have an informed opinion.

El Gilbro
06-01-2010, 10:09 AM
I have only heard 3 football players called the greatest player ever.

Jim Brown
Lawrence Taylor
Jerry Rice

The argument used every time was that not only were they the best ever at their positions, but they were that good that gameplanning against them actually changed the way that teams play the game of football across the league.

rumpsicle
06-01-2010, 10:57 AM
LOL

Good job mentioning Emmit Smith and not Jim Brown (whom most consider the best player at any postiton, ever)

Good job being a fukin dumbass.

ko5567
06-01-2010, 10:58 AM
What do you mean? Jerry Rice was the greatest NFL player ever, this is fact.

fixed

21Classic
06-01-2010, 11:04 AM
I think baseball is one of the most disputed

Bonds
Ruth
Aaron
Williams
Mays
Cobb
Rose
Gherig
Mantle
Cy Young
Koufax
Ryan
Maddux
Clemens

You could probably make a case for any of these names being #1 and have a very valid argument. Even Griffey gets thrown in with the "had he not been injured" argument.

is not


its baby ruth

http://ladiesdotdotdot.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/sandlot1.jpg

the sultan of swat

the king of clout

the colossal of crack

THE GREAT BAMBINO

Navillus13
06-01-2010, 11:06 AM
LOL

Good job mentioning Emmit Smith and not Jim Brown (whom most consider the best player at any postiton, ever)

like I said, its most people's opinions.. I don't even like Emmitt Smith. Even most top 10 RB lists don't have Jim Brown number 1. The consensus is one of these guys:

Payton, Sanders, Brown, Smith, Sayers, Campbell, Simpson, Tomlinson


Why do people still say Peyton Manning is even close to being the GOAT?
GOAT's don't throw a pick 6 in the 4th quarter when the game is on the line. Just sayin'

Because he is on pace to shatter all the NFL passing records? Dude just needs more super bowl wins.

Navillus13
06-01-2010, 11:09 AM
Until another baseball player comes along that can hit 40+ homers and can maintain a 2.28 ERA over the course of 10 years, Babe Ruth will forever be the best baseball player.

Big7Ben86
06-01-2010, 11:40 AM
lol jim brown played against some horrific defenses, he is definately not #1

Antonio519
06-01-2010, 11:41 AM
Jay Cutler will be the greatest NFL player to ever play the game

CCAurora
06-01-2010, 11:44 AM
Football is WAY more a "team sport" than baseball, basketball, or hockey for that matter. Chalk that up in part to the fact that there's 22 players in on every play, compared to 12 in hockey, and 10 in basketball. In baseball, you could argue that as few as 3-5 players have a role in most plays, if that many.

cor030
06-01-2010, 12:07 PM
Because he is on pace to shatter all the NFL passing records? Dude just needs more super bowl wins.

That's a bit easier said than done, especially for Manning. He has to win 3 more to be mentioned in the same sentence as Joseph Montania.

Guy has had a stacked team for the past decade and can't manage more than 1 super bowl. Manning is one of my favorite players, you can't NOT like the guy, but there is no denying he is an average at best post season QB.

Navillus13
06-01-2010, 12:16 PM
That's a bit easier said than done, especially for Manning. He has to win 3 more to be mentioned in the same sentence as Joseph Montania.

Guy has had a stacked team for the past decade and can't manage more than 1 super bowl. Manning is one of my favorite players, you can't NOT like the guy, but there is no denying he is an average at best post season QB.

You can't mention stacked teams in comparison. Montana and Aikman and all those guys didn't have to deal with free agency like they deal with today. Those guys had stellar teams for many years, while the rest of the NFL was below average.

IraHays
06-01-2010, 12:17 PM
Those guys had stellar teams for many years, while the rest of the NFL was below average.

You've gone full retard son.

Onita
06-01-2010, 12:24 PM
like I said, its most people's opinions.. I don't even like Emmitt Smith. Even most top 10 RB lists don't have Jim Brown number 1. The consensus is one of these guys:

Payton, Sanders, Brown, Smith, Sayers, Campbell, Simpson, Tomlinson



Because he is on pace to shatter all the NFL passing records? Dude just needs more super bowl wins.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/6907909

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1697416/the_greatest_nfl_running_backs_of_all_pg8.html?cat =14

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/308572-the-top-10-running-backs-of-all-time#page/11

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/toplists/nflxten_greatest_running_backs_of_all_time/nflxten_greatest_running_backs_of_all_time.html

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=yasinskas_pat&id=3422309

Jim Brown > * ;)

EDIT: Basketball is the only sport where one player can have that big of a difference in both sides of the game (Offense and defense).

STA1011
06-01-2010, 12:29 PM
Football is WAY more a "team sport" than baseball, basketball, or hockey for that matter. Chalk that up in part to the fact that there's 22 players in on every play, compared to 12 in hockey, and 10 in basketball. In baseball, you could argue that as few as 3-5 players have a role in most plays, if that many.

Baseball is an individual sport inside of a team sport.


Greatest hitter ever: Bonds

Greatest pitcher: (R) Walter Johnson
(L) Sandy Koufax / Steve Carlton

Navillus13
06-01-2010, 12:30 PM
You've gone full retard son.

How so? The NFC dominated every year... there was maybe 8 awesome teams, and the rest were garbage.

FlexGunmetal
06-01-2010, 01:44 PM
Why do people still say Peyton Manning is even close to being the GOAT?

GOAT's don't throw a pick 6 in the 4th quarter when the game is on the line. Just sayin'

Because he is...

weezyjaunt
06-01-2010, 01:53 PM
last name ever, first name davis

DL Addict
06-01-2010, 01:54 PM
Why do people still say Peyton Manning is even close to being the GOAT?

GOAT's don't throw a pick 6 in the 4th quarter when the game is on the line. Just sayin'

IMO, it is because he is current. Same goes for ARod, LeBron, Kobe, Pujols, etc. It's easier to see their body of work, and you grow up watching these guys every week/day/season. Sure, you can go watch Montana highlights, or Aikman, Magic, Mantle, Ruth, etc...but you get to live through watching the current guys play. Peyton is a sure bet to be in the HOF, and is on track to at least be mentioned in GOAT QB conversation, but his resume isn't complete like Montana etc.

FlexGunmetal
06-01-2010, 01:58 PM
GOAT A & GOAT B


http://i46.tinypic.com/uvk8y.jpg

JTrain306
06-01-2010, 01:59 PM
Oh hai there

http://www.lamesports.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/jerry-rice-joe-montana-c10108535.jpg

ChiefRocka
06-01-2010, 02:00 PM
It's hard to breakdown football because there are so many positions.Exactly. In baseball everyone hits. In basketball everyone dribbles, shoots and passes. In football QBs throw the football. Running backs run the ball. Linebackers and linemen rush the QB. Wide receivers catch passes. So there is no one player that did all of those things so its impossible to label one person the greatest. You can only do it by position.

JTrain306
06-01-2010, 02:03 PM
GOAT A & GOAT B


http://i46.tinypic.com/uvk8y.jpg
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z270/IK2121/TI.gif

FlexGunmetal
06-01-2010, 02:07 PM
lol

bbacn123
06-01-2010, 02:25 PM
Football is WAY more a "team sport" than baseball, basketball, or hockey for that matter. Chalk that up in part to the fact that there's 22 players in on every play, compared to 12 in hockey, and 10 in basketball. In baseball, you could argue that as few as 3-5 players have a role in most plays, if that many.

lol no. Per play I see what you're saying, but because everything is so focused on individual plays like that it's all the more reason you have to rely on your teammates. A lot of the time YOU will be doing nothing. If that's not relying on your teammates to make plays I don't know what is. Even as a pitcher you rely heavily on your team. In fact, Halladay's perfect game is a great example of this. Imagine if that error had never been made by Maybin for a second and that run never scored. Halladay would have pitched 9 innings perfectly and still not had the lead.

Meanwhile a quarterback has the ball in his hands every possession. I get that the entire team needs to function in order for him to do his job, but 1 player can have a much greater impact in a football game than 1 player can in a baseball game.

Sorry but to me when less people are in on most of the plays it means you're relying that much more on your team to get it done when you have 0 effect on the outcome 95% of the time during the game.

cor030
06-01-2010, 04:11 PM
Because he is...

http://i45.tinypic.com/bfq4hk.jpg


IMO, it is because he is current. Same goes for ARod, LeBron, Kobe, Pujols, etc. It's easier to see their body of work, and you grow up watching these guys every week/day/season. Sure, you can go watch Montana highlights, or Aikman, Magic, Mantle, Ruth, etc...but you get to live through watching the current guys play. Peyton is a sure bet to be in the HOF, and is on track to at least be mentioned in GOAT QB conversation, but his resume isn't complete like Montana etc.

I can understand that. I'm not going to act like I saw every game Montana played, but I can definitely say 4 rings > 1.

FlexGunmetal
06-01-2010, 04:25 PM
http://i45.tinypic.com/bfq4hk.jpg



I can understand that. I'm not going to act like I saw every game Montana played, but I can definitely say 4 rings > 1.

Awesome. One play does not define a career.
Here's a post from a thread in which some dumbass claimed ARodge>Peyton. Sums up things nicely for Peyton haters.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=488984921&postcount=44

I'm a broncos fan and peyton destroys denver every time they play. Saying Peyton isn't a candidate GOAT and a lock for the HOF is silly.
He's got plenty of time.

cor030
06-01-2010, 04:33 PM
Awesome. One play does not define a career.
Here's a post from a thread in which some dumbass claimed ARodge>Peyton.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=488984921&postcount=44

I'm a broncos fan and peyton destroys denver every time they play. Saying Peyton isn't a GOAT and a lock for the HOF is silly.

Look I'm not saying he's bad, and I agree he's one of the greatest, but not THE greatest. He still has plenty of years left to become the greatest, but right now, even with all of the ridiculous regular season stats/wins/etc, he still has a way to go before he can be called the best.

and of course I'm not basing my opinion off of one play. I'm basing it off of Peyton being one and done 6 times. His career 87 passer rating in the post season. His 9-9 record, with only 1 super bowl to show for it.

Hardcore_D00d
06-01-2010, 04:36 PM
football is much harder to specify a "best" player ever because each player have different roles and is at an expert at their particular job. however in something like basketball any1 can shoot, pass, play defense. in football the qb's job is to read defense, make plays, distribute the ball. the WR catches, blockers block. u cannot have 1 all time best but u could have the best at each position

CCAurora
06-01-2010, 04:39 PM
Oh hai there

http://www.lamesports.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/jerry-rice-joe-montana-c10108535.jpg

This. Montana went 4-0 in his Super Bowls and posted something like 40 4th quarter comebacks. Clutch personified.

Now had Brady pulled out the W in 2007...