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stephenmorrow
05-27-2010, 12:16 PM
Is the Paleo Diet bull****? Or does it actually work, it's not a fad diet or anything it just restricts the consumption of grains and dairy, I'm like wtf? Aren't those foods excellent for you?!!!

snorkelman
05-27-2010, 12:34 PM
in before the reference to paleotards.

stephenmorrow
05-27-2010, 12:41 PM
in before the reference to paleotards.

lmao, what does that mean? and btw i dont support the diet im just asking what its all about :P

m1ke78
05-27-2010, 12:52 PM
Yes it works. You are essentially limiting foods to the most nutrient dense per calorie foods that are available and eliminating anything processed.

stephenmorrow
05-27-2010, 12:53 PM
Yes it works. You are essentially limiting foods to the most nutrient dense per calorie foods that are available and eliminating anything processed.

But it eliminates Dairy and Grains, Oats and Milk are one of the best bodybuilding foods out there, aren't they staple?

m1ke78
05-27-2010, 01:03 PM
Milk is a great tool for building mass if that's your goal. It's a huge hinderance if you're trying to lean out.

I'm on the fence if oats have any serious negatives like wheat does, but if you're looking for nutrient density there are far better options so it becomes moot.

snorkelman
05-27-2010, 01:07 PM
But it eliminates Dairy and Grains, Oats and Milk are one of the best bodybuilding foods out there, aren't they staple?

Alan has researched this in depth and has actually uncovered scientific support that undermines the lack of grain claim.

M5kx9FrIhJU

stephenmorrow
05-27-2010, 01:16 PM
Milk is a great tool for building mass if that's your goal. It's a huge hinderance if you're trying to lean out.

I'm on the fence if oats have any serious negatives like wheat does, but if you're looking for nutrient density there are far better options so it becomes moot.

What could i have for breakfast instead of oats then for my carbs?

stephenmorrow
05-27-2010, 01:17 PM
Alan has researched this in depth and has actually uncovered scientific support that undermines the lack of grain claim.

M5kx9FrIhJU

Lmao, are those actually "Paleo" cream puffs?

On Fire
05-27-2010, 01:55 PM
Lmao, are those actually "Paleo" cream puffs?

Yep. Didn't you hear him? They picked those off the trees in the paleolithic period.

Gosh.

Backus24
05-27-2010, 02:00 PM
Lmao, are those actually "Paleo" cream puffs?

not sure if serious

stephenmorrow
05-27-2010, 03:15 PM
Yes it works. You are essentially limiting foods to the most nutrient dense per calorie foods that are available and eliminating anything processed.

Any other opinions on this diet guys? I'd like to hear them

On Fire
05-27-2010, 03:27 PM
Any other opinions on this diet guys? I'd like to hear them

Oh I never answered your question. Here's my opinion:

It sucks.

Fury22
05-27-2010, 03:35 PM
Any other opinions on this diet guys? I'd like to hear them

It depends on the type of Paleo. There are many types, such as those that include dairy and those that don't. Some include tubers (sweet potatoes) and some don't. Many Paleo eaters also use butter from grass-fed cows, which is a great source of good fat but is obviously not a true Paleolithic food.

The idea of Paleo is to eat real food. Meats, eggs, vegetables, some fruits, nuts and seeds. This is the basis of eating Paleo. The people who oppose it are usually the ones who can't fathom the idea of giving "bodybuilding" foods (like oats, many people here have an almost sexual fascination with oats). But it's important to remember that most people who eat Paleo are not bodybuilders or really give a fuk about being as big as possible, but being as healthy as possible. This is why many Paleo eaters are often minimalists when it comes to exercise. They train intensely for short periods of time a few times a week. This is a good thing if your goal isn't to be as big as possible or to compete in something like weightlifting, which tends to require a lot of time in the gym.

The dairy issue, especially concerning milk, has more to do with whether or not milk is a beneficial food to drink. Most grocery store milks are not. Heavily pasteurized milk is nearly nutritonally worthless, as the process destroys most of the useful vitamins and minerals. This is why Paleo eaters who do drink milk tend to drink either raw milk from grass fed, hormone/antibiotic free cows or find local milk that has been minimally processed. But most milk in stores is pretty crappy nutritionally due to the process of pasteurization.

http://www.fitnessspotlight.com/2009/06/19/paleoprimal-eating-plan-improves-health/

This is a pretty good article on Paleo/Primal style eating. It's also a good website to read through is regards to general health and well-being. The writers aren't pushy and their main focus is improving people's overall health. NOT BODYBUILDING OR GETTIN DA JACK3D FIBRAZ. Read through it and it should give you a pretty good idea.

kusok
05-27-2010, 04:24 PM
Paleo is a healthful diet.

Nothing wrong with it.

BUT the paleotard's "reasoning" for avoiding grains is stupid, not based on any science (as they admit), and is not at all beneficial or true.
Just because cavemen didn't eat grains doesn't mean they can't be beneficial, nor does surviving = optimum, so copying ancient eating habits is groundless. In fact one can make an equally idiotic argument against fruits! Watch:

Modern fruits are not the same as in the past, they are basically a candy from a tree these days. more sugar, less fiber. So fruits are bad...

see?

compelling, isn't it?

So funny that many bodybuilders AVOID fruit... Both groups are just wrong and ignorant.

Fury22
05-27-2010, 04:56 PM
Paleo is a healthful diet.

Nothing wrong with it.

BUT the paleotard's "reasoning" for avoiding grains is stupid, not based on any science (as they admit), and is not at all beneficial or true.
Just because cavemen didn't eat grains doesn't mean they can't be beneficial, nor does surviving = optimum, so copying ancient eating habits is groundless. In fact one can make an equally idiotic argument against fruits! Watch:

Modern fruits are not the same as in the past, they are basically a candy from a tree these days. more sugar, less fiber. So fruits are bad...

see?

compelling, isn't it?

So funny that many bodybuilders AVOID fruit... Both groups are just wrong and ignorant.

Actually there are good reasons to avoid grains. It's not about "copying what cavemen did". It's about the body's ability to use them, the cost of eating them for nutritional benefit, etc. Plus, I can personally say that giving up grains has improved my immune system better than any medication or antibiotic ever has, and I no longer have stomach problems after carb heavy meals. The only common denominator was grains. I still eat carbs, but mainly from fruit and sweet potatoes (white potatoes on occasion). Many people find that they get the same results.

The other thing is that the grain products we eat today are pretty crappy in comparison with grain products that were eaten hundreds of years ago.

EDIT: Definitely agree on the last part. A lot of Paleo eaters whine and cry like little girls about fruit and peanuts, yet make exceptions for milk and dairy. On the same end, many bodybuilders avoid fruit like the plague, yet won't think twice about adding manufactured carbs in their shakes or eating a loaf of bread.

ParsleyTea
05-27-2010, 05:35 PM
I like the paleo diet. It is pretty much what I eat. And as I've seen Dr Cordain write, if the Paleo diet is a fad, it is the longest running fad diet in history.

Lots can be learned about the science and general information on the diet at:

http://thepaleodiet.blogspot.com/

Heatmiser
05-27-2010, 06:55 PM
Any other opinions on this diet guys? I'd like to hear them

I love it.. keep in mind that nothing we eat today is "pure" paleo - its more of a mindset and overall dietary approach than anything else.

For example, no one 100,00 years ago drank coffee and no one today eats mammoth and grubs. Some people eat eggs or dairy and some don't. Don't get caught up in the details.

The main thing is avoid wheat and gluten, eat plenty of grass-fed meat and chicken and wild fish when possible. Eat nuts if you aren't allergic to them. Eat lots of non-starchy veggies and occasional fruit. Avoid processed vegetable seed oils like corn-oil, soybean oil etc. Supplement your diet with D3 and fish oil. Use butter and olive oil instead of margarine. The idea is reduce inflammation and excessive insulin prodcition in the body.

There is no downside to a diet that is natural, unprocessed, and full of meat and veggies. If you think you look, feel, and perform better with wheat and gluten in your diet try it both ways for a while and see. Some people are extraordinarily sensitive to grains and others aren't. Same with dairy.

As for carb intake - most paleo eaters get it via veggies and sweet potatoes. Some eat a very low amount of carbs and other take in considerably more. There is no single rule that says you must have X amount of carbs. Dial in the amount to suit your preferences and exercise needs.

Try it for yourself for a while and see how it goes. No one will ever convince me of the upside to carbs from bread, pasta, and other other grains compared to getting those carbs from veggies like broccoli, mushroom, onions, carrots, sweet peppers and sweet potatoes etc.

PM me for a ton of links to various paleo-related blogs by MDs/PHDs on the subject of nutrition and paleo and inflammation and wheat etc.

Fury22
05-27-2010, 07:43 PM
I love it.. keep in mind that nothing we eat today is "pure" paleo - its more of a mindset and overall dietary approach than anything else.

For example, no one 100,00 years ago drank coffee and no one today eats mammoth and grubs. Some people eat eggs or dairy and some don't. Don't get caught up in the details.

The main thing is avoid wheat and gluten, eat plenty of grass-fed meat and chicken and wild fish when possible. Eat nuts if you aren't allergic to them. Eat lots of non-starchy veggies and occasional fruit. Avoid processed vegetable seed oils like corn-oil, soybean oil etc. Supplement your diet with D3 and fish oil. Use butter and olive oil instead of margarine. The idea is reduce inflammation and excessive insulin prodcition in the body.

There is no downside to a diet that is natural, unprocessed, and full of meat and veggies. If you think you look, feel, and perform better with wheat and gluten in your diet try it both ways for a while and see. Some people are extraordinarily sensitive to grains and others aren't. Same with dairy.

As for carb intake - most paleo eaters get it via veggies and sweet potatoes. Some eat a very low amount of carbs and other take in considerably more. There is no single rule that says you must have X amount of carbs. Dial in the amount to suit your preferences and exercise needs.

Try it for yourself for a while and see how it goes. No one will ever convince me of the upside to carbs from bread, pasta, and other other grains compared to getting those carbs from veggies like broccoli, mushroom, onions, carrots, sweet peppers and sweet potatoes etc.

PM me for a ton of links to various paleo-related blogs by MDs/PHDs on the subject of nutrition and paleo and inflammation and wheat etc.

Great post!

mivi320
05-27-2010, 07:58 PM
Paleo, in my opinion, is a healthy diet. BUT, a healthy diet must also encompass that the individual undergoes some very important lifestyle and behavioral modifications that promote longevity and willingness to follow a healthy diet. I think any diet where the elimination of nutritional culprit in the diet has the potential of being healthy. Paleo does just that. But speaking long term...for the Paleo follower who isn't on Paleo for "life," lifestyle and behavioral modifications and "learning" how to eat a balanced diet are still needed to be made after cessation of Paleo. Furthermore, look at the advancements in medical nutrition therapy (MNT) in today's dietetic world. Registered Dietitians in a clinical setting are not prescribing an avoidance of particular whole grains and dairy to patients with nutritional implications/diseases that Paleo claims to improve. Lifestyle, behavior, and simple dietary modifications can produce the same health and longevity status in present day without restricting variety. More than one way to skin a cat.

TitanFB11
05-27-2010, 07:59 PM
jesus whats with the all the paleo threads latley?

did they start selling bulk paleo cream puffs at costco?

if they did i gotta make a run, im almost out

alan aragon
05-27-2010, 08:02 PM
Paleo dieters are largely unaware of how speculative their orthorexic tendencies are.

mivi320
05-27-2010, 08:03 PM
if they did i gotta make a run, im almost out

Make it a Tabata run, crossfit style brah.

stephenmorrow
05-27-2010, 08:10 PM
Paleo dieters are largely unaware of how speculative their orthorexic tendencies are.

Yeah, I know I don't think I'm going to follow it just eat a clean diet, btw how were those paleo cream puffs? :P

And can you guys go to my other post on teen bodybuilding and look at it and critique my workout? It would be greatly appreciated if so :)

Fury22
05-27-2010, 08:10 PM
Make it a Tabata run, crossfit style brah.

then we can follow it up with kipping pull-ups and 30-rep clean & jerks. Fuk yeah!

stephenmorrow
05-27-2010, 08:13 PM
then we can follow it up with kipping pull-ups and 30-rep clean & jerks. Fuk yeah!

Dont forget the partial deadlifts! And 1000 burpees!

TitanFB11
05-27-2010, 08:20 PM
Make it a Tabata run, crossfit style brah.


cant, i havent had the eats in over 2 hours so im currently in a catabolic state.

brb having protein shake with my EFAS (so my testosterone dosent drop to a 10) and oats (sugars late at night are teh devil)

but i gotta make it quick becuase i have a seminar to teach about the blood type diet.


oh and white rice makes you fat
protein shakes make muscle turn to fat
20+reps for toning
less then 10min to injest PWO shake otherwise its a waste and your getting smaller
dont train legs cause no 1 sees them
and abs everyday to get skinny.

stephenmorrow
05-27-2010, 08:22 PM
cant, i havent had the eats in over 2 hours so im currently in a catabolic state.

brb having protein shake with my EFAS (so my testosterone dosent drop to a 10) and oats (sugars late at night are teh devil)

but i gotta make it quick becuase i have a seminar to teach about the blood type diet.


oh and white rice makes you fat
protein shakes make muscle turn to fat
20+reps for toning
less then 10min to injest PWO shake otherwise its a waste and your getting smaller
dont train legs cause no 1 sees them
and abs everyday to get skinny.

Don't eat any oats, Cavemen didn't therefore you shouldn't

Heatmiser
05-27-2010, 08:25 PM
Paleo dieters are largely unaware of how speculative their orthorexic tendencies are.

If you don't believe it then don't follow it. Let others try it out and decide for themselves.

Fury22
05-27-2010, 08:40 PM
If you don't believe it then don't follow it. Let others try it out and decide for themselves.

This. A lot of Paleo hate here.

Yes, there are some zealots, but they are no worse than vegan zealots or anyother. At least a Paleo fantasy is based on an ideal that was at least something of a reality. I have no respect for veganism as a philosophy and it's based on an ideal that has never happened nor will ever happen.

Paleo is about real food and knowing where your food came from. That's why Paleo supports grass fed meats and free-range products. The whole "caveman" thing is stupid. It's not about what cavemen did or didn't do. I don't see where the problem is. We have way too many many subsititutes for real food. It's ridiculous. Turkey bacon, egg beaters, mystery meats, etc. Eat some real goddamn food!

EDIT: or don't....I don't care.

Heatmiser
05-27-2010, 08:48 PM
But it eliminates Dairy and Grains, Oats and Milk are one of the best bodybuilding foods out there, aren't they staple?

Who said that oats are great for bodybuilding compared to other sources of carbs such as vegetables or fruit? Oats are poor in total nutrients compared to fruits and vegetables. That's why so many of them are fortified.

Milk does promote growth, and some paleo-eaters do consume it to varying degrees. Keep in mind that what's best for growth/maximum muscle size isn't necessarily the best for maximum overall health and longevity. 300lbs of muscle is great for bodybuilding, not so much if you want to live to 100.

A ton of Anadrol 50 every week is great for size, but not for overall health. Common sense needs to prevail. Some milk is not going to kill you and will likely help your gains. Doesn't mean drinking a gallon a day your entire life is necessarily ideal. Eating a candy bar on occasion will not kill you, eating 5 a day your entire life probably isn't such a good idea.

alan aragon
05-27-2010, 09:05 PM
Paleos pick & choose which foods they deem righteously "correct" according to speculative ancestral dietary patterns - which were literally all over the map. I call comedy on this one.

JustScrap
05-27-2010, 09:16 PM
First off the Paleo diet is nothing new. Vince Gironda advocated a variation with raw dairy and in the pre-steroid era most bodybuilders diets were identical. Even now most bodybuilder's diets are identical or similar especially the cut diets. Other performance coaches like Charles Poliquin and Dan John (meat, veggie, and berry diet) recommend a similar style of eating. As for the grains issue, that has been beaten to death. A quick google search will give you the results. Give it a try; Josh Bunch runs a bodybuilding and figure team that follows the diet. Jaquelyn Roberts; the female winner of the bodyspace competition, also follows the paleo diet. I have a blog up at GI Nutrition where I talk about how to tailor it to your goals. If anyone wants to see how they do, just give it a try for a few months.

alan aragon
05-27-2010, 09:25 PM
First off the Paleo diet is nothing new. Vince Gironda advocated a variation with raw dairy and in the pre-steroid era most bodybuilders diets were identical. Even now most bodybuilder's diets are identical or similar especially the cut diets. Other performance coaches like Charles Poliquin and Dan John (meat, veggie, and berry diet) recommend a similar style of eating. As for the grains issue, that has been beaten to death. A quick google search will give you the results. Give it a try; Josh Bunch runs a bodybuilding and figure team that follows the diet. Jaquelyn Roberts; the female winner of the bodyspace competition, also follows the paleo diet. I have a blog up at GI Nutrition where I talk about how to tailor it to your goals. If anyone wants to see how they do, just give it a try for a few months.You just named off some lollish sources for nutritional info.

Heatmiser
05-27-2010, 09:31 PM
Paleos pick & choose which foods they deem righteously "correct" according to speculative ancestral dietary patterns - which were literally all over the map. I call comedy on this one.

Are you bothered that people will try it for themselves and prefer to follow it rather than buy your books and follow your advice?

Is everyone who is getting great results from it delusional, stupid, or brain-washed? Are people who report that they feel better by not eating grains all lying, and only YOU know whats going on? You are the final word on nutrition, right??

Sounds like anyone who disagrees with you is accused of pushing dubious/speculative "bro" science. Sorry, but the educational backgrounds and amassed experience of the doctors blogs I follow crush yours and I would trust them over you any day of the week when it comes to the traditional diets of hunter-gatherers or the bio-chemistry of food intake.

But then again I don't need to give a crap what you or any guru thinks about paleo eating. I have tried it myself and I feel better, have more energy, and my blood panel numbers have improved compared to "balanced" traditional bodybuilder diet. I'm glad as hell I didn't follow only your advice for the rest of my life and started to read wider variety of opinions on the subject.

I call "comedy" on you decreeing your opinion as fact and trying to convince people to not learn more about paleo and experiment with it on their own if they choose.

Backus24
05-27-2010, 09:42 PM
Are you bothered that people will try it for themselves and prefer to follow it rather than buy your books and follow your advice?

Is everyone who is getting great results from it delusional, stupid, or brain-washed? Are people who report that they feel better by not eating grains all lying, and only YOU know the truth. Only YOU know the truth, right?

Sounds like anyone who disagrees with you is accused of pushing dubious/speculative "bro" science. Sorry, but the educational backgrounds and amassed experience of the doctors blogs I follow crush yours and I would trust them over you any day of the week.

But then again I dont give a crap what you or any guru thinks about paleo eating. I have tried it myself and I feel better, have more energy, and my blood panel numbers have improved compared to "balanced" traditional bodybuilder diet.


Calm down bro.


Seems like you get a little heated when someone points out the weaknesses of how you choose to eat. Alarmism arguments that bastardize an entire nutrient always have room for improvement. Especially a diet based mostly on speculation, rather than what research shows.


And obviously you haven't read much of Alan's work, as I've had more success in one year following his advice then the 6+ years I've been reading this forum.

Heatmiser
05-27-2010, 10:09 PM
Calm down bro.


Seems like you get a little heated when someone points out the weaknesses of how you choose to eat. Alarmism arguments that bastardize an entire nutrient always have room for improvement. Especially a diet based mostly on speculation, rather than what research shows.


And obviously you haven't read much of Alan's work, as I've had more success in one year following his advice then the 6+ years I've been reading this forum.


LOL.. I'm not overheated.. it just makes laugh when Aragon jumps into every paleo-thread to mock it as if he's the final word on the subject.

If people are interested in the subject they should read about it and explore the topic on their own. I'm no ideologue on the subject - I don't even eat pure "orthodox" paleo myself and I'm not selling books or training clients so I have no dog in the fight aside from being very happy I tried it.

I have little respect for vegan ideology, but I don't go around on forums hoping into vegan threads looking to mock them either.

FYI, the diets of hunter-gatherers is not that speculative - they are well documented and in fact numerous pure examples still existed in the early 20th century - Inuit, Masai, Kitavins, Bushmen and many others.

alan aragon
05-27-2010, 10:12 PM
Are you bothered that people will try it for themselves and prefer to follow it rather than buy your books and follow your advice?

Is everyone who is getting great results from it delusional, stupid, or brain-washed? Are people who report that they feel better by not eating grains all lying, and only YOU know whats going on? You are the final word on nutrition, right??

Sounds like anyone who disagrees with you is accused of pushing dubious/speculative "bro" science. Sorry, but the educational backgrounds and amassed experience of the doctors blogs I follow crush yours and I would trust them over you any day of the week when it comes to the traditional diets of hunter-gatherers or the bio-chemistry of food intake.

But then again I don't need to give a crap what you or any guru thinks about paleo eating. I have tried it myself and I feel better, have more energy, and my blood panel numbers have improved compared to "balanced" traditional bodybuilder diet. I'm glad as hell I didn't follow only your advice for the rest of my life and started to read wider variety of opinions on the subject.

I call "comedy" on you decreeing your opinion as fact and trying to convince people to not learn more about paleo and experiment with it on their own if they choose.This is one of the best strawman arguments ever formed. Congrats bro.

Backus24
05-27-2010, 10:14 PM
LOL.. I'm not overheated.. it just makes laugh when Aragon jumps into every paleo-thread to mock it as if he's the final word on the subject.

If people are interested in the subject they should read about it and explore the topic on their own. I'm no ideologue on the subject - I don't even eat pure "orthodox" paleo myself and I'm not selling books or training clients so I have no dog in the fight aside from being very happy I tried it.

I have little respect for vegan ideology, but I don't go around on forums hoping into vegan threads looking to mock them either.

It makes it pretty easy to mock when most of the followers bastardize an entire nutrient, as well as the people who do eat carbs and grains by saying they are poisoning themselves.

Especially when the whole diet is based on speculation rather than research. It's called being objective, and most of the people who follow that diet are not. They get bent out of shape when good points are brought up, or when asked for research.

Heatmiser
05-27-2010, 10:15 PM
This is one of the best strawman arguments ever formed. Congrats bro.

Sure thing, bro.

alan aragon
05-27-2010, 10:17 PM
Sure thing, bro.I forgot to add, you pulled a strong straw man, while making an appeal to authority. Brush up on your logic before you decide to square off. Bro.

alan aragon
05-27-2010, 10:21 PM
They get bent out of shape when good points are brought up, or when asked for research.^^^Hey Heatmiser, read this quote through a couple times till it sinks in. You did get all bent out of shape when I leveled objective criticism.

TitanFB11
05-27-2010, 10:29 PM
cavemen couldnt speak well, looked like crap and ultimatly, died early.

yea i want to follow their diet......


i dont get it...truly dont understand it.

do paleo dieters eat caribou and mammoths as well?

kusok
05-27-2010, 10:32 PM
Are you bothered that people will try it for themselves and prefer to follow it rather than buy your books and follow your advice?

Is everyone who is getting great results from it delusional, stupid, or brain-washed? Are people who report that they feel better by not eating grains all lying, and only YOU know whats going on? You are the final word on nutrition, right??

Sounds like anyone who disagrees with you is accused of pushing dubious/speculative "bro" science. Sorry, but the educational backgrounds and amassed experience of the doctors blogs I follow crush yours and I would trust them over you any day of the week when it comes to the traditional diets of hunter-gatherers or the bio-chemistry of food intake.

But then again I don't need to give a crap what you or any guru thinks about paleo eating. I have tried it myself and I feel better, have more energy, and my blood panel numbers have improved compared to "balanced" traditional bodybuilder diet. I'm glad as hell I didn't follow only your advice for the rest of my life and started to read wider variety of opinions on the subject.

I call "comedy" on you decreeing your opinion as fact and trying to convince people to not learn more about paleo and experiment with it on their own if they choose.



wat


I think you totally misunderstood what Mr. Aragon was saying. In fact I believe I saw somewhere him saying that Paleo is a HEALTHFUL diet...

It is the grounds on which the Paleotards ok or reject certain foods that is under discussion, as they don't have scientific evidence (as they admit), but rather just speculation.

seanb1979
05-27-2010, 10:37 PM
cavemen couldnt speak well, looked like crap and ultimatly, died early.

yea i want to follow their diet......


i dont get it...truly dont understand it.

do paleo dieters eat caribou and mammoths as well?

I hear they have hopes of cloning mammoths.... might be tasty? :D

Heatmiser
05-27-2010, 10:38 PM
^^^Hey Heatmiser, read this quote through a couple times till it sinks in. You did get all bent out of shape when I leveled objective criticism.


I'm just returning a snippy attitude to you when you write things like "I call comedy" :)

I'm annoyed that this thread is distracting me from eating my mammoth and grub soup.

seanb1979
05-27-2010, 10:40 PM
Would this be considered a jurassic diet/lifestyle? Seems somewhat close to paleo.

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/m4w/1758205429.html

Heatmiser
05-27-2010, 10:42 PM
Would this be considered a jurassic diet/lifestyle? Seems somewhat close to paleo.

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/m4w/1758205429.html

Off by about 62 million years. Creepy though.

On Fire
05-27-2010, 11:00 PM
Are you bothered that people will try it for themselves and prefer to follow it rather than buy your books and follow your advice?

http://www.alanaragonblog.com/2010/03/13/its-okay-to-disagree-2/

Why do you think you consistently see names of other highly regarded nutrition gurus in Alan's blog comments? Coincidence?

I can tell you one thing, they're not there to pick fights and make straw-man arguments.

Heatmiser
05-27-2010, 11:08 PM
wat
It is the grounds on which the Paleotards ok or reject certain foods that is under discussion, as they don't have scientific evidence (as they admit), but rather just speculation.


But there IS evidence - Including circumstantial, anecdotal, and direct scientific research.

These blogs are all written by guys with extensive education and/or researchers/doctors - not just "bros" off the street - and they discuss the science behind the biological impact that grains/gluten/dairy/fats/carbs/proteins etc. have on the body:

http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/
http://nephropal.blogspot.com/
http://robbwolf.com/
http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/
http://thepaleodiet.blogspot.com/
http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200251h.html


take a look - poke around and make up your own mind.

OK I'm done for the night -

Alan: I'm not a hater or anything. I just think you are way off base on this particular topic, on others I think you are spot on. Hopefully no hard feelings. :) Didn't mean to come off like I was spazzing out or something lol.

alan aragon
05-27-2010, 11:12 PM
Heatmiser -- One more thing. If I wanted to appeal to authority, I'd mention that I have MDs & PhDs as clients. I'm also gonna give a continuing education lecture to a group of physicians on October 21st in SoCal. Are you a physician or surgeon in need of CE credits to maintain your license to practice? Great, you'll earn 22 CEs by attending. Thus, I can call several doctors MY STUDENTS. But guess what... It's still a weak appeal to authority, since the closest thing to true 'authority' is objective research data.

alan aragon
05-27-2010, 11:19 PM
Alan: I'm not a hater or anything. I just think you are way off base on this particular topic, on others I think you are spot on. Hopefully no hard feelings. :) Didn't mean to come off like I was spazzing out or something lol.If you think I'm way off base, stop appealing to authority & start backing up your stance with research. Watch out for creating straw men in the process, and watch out for citing research that does not match protein intake between diets.

Dths
05-27-2010, 11:24 PM
How do we have the slightest clue what cavemen ate? How do we know cavemen didn't eat grains, they aren't exactly some advanced modern technology.

Hell for all we know they could be eating their own feces.

Ignoring the fact that cavemen were overweight most of the year to allow for periods of fasting and draught and had a short lifespan how does this diet even have the slightest food hold in actual scientific facts.

Heatmiser
05-27-2010, 11:54 PM
If you think I'm way off base, stop appealing to authority & start backing up your stance with research. Watch out for creating straw men in the process, and watch out for citing research that does not match protein intake between diets.

But you are the one who jumped into this thread and called it speculative with no evidence of your own to back it up.

I responded with the simple statement that people should try it and decide for themselves.

You AGAIN called it speculative and "comedy" while providing no evidence.

So why should people believe you over other experts I listed when you brought no evidence yourself other than your opinion? Simply because your interpretation of the topic differs from theirs? The reasoning/research/evidence behind the diet approach is fully explained at those sites for all who wish to see it.

Then when another poster mentioned other people (Gironda, Poliquin etc) who's diet overlapped paleo to some degree you mocked THEIR ideas. The implication is that your knowledge, experience ,education, and interpretation of the science is superior. So according to you those guys are "lollish sources" - yet you accuse me of "appealing to authority" when I stated than many other non bodybuilding PHD/Mds see the issue totally different than you.

So the reason I "appealed to authority" as you put it is because I think that people should be aware that other highly trained experts on the subject (and yes, I would consider you an expert on nutrition) disagree on the research and they can provide very detailed and extensive thoughts on the topic at their sites.

You keep saying paleo is speculative with no evidence - they say it's not and they provide evidence and reasoning at their sites. I have no interest or ability to debate the science - that's why I keep telling people to learn more on their own and try it for themselves.

Insight
05-28-2010, 12:08 AM
true story: there was a great exchange on some paleo blog a while ago in response to something Lyle said. Michael Miller was over there arguing and arguing and arguing in the comments section and trolling quite epically, throwing out studies about ASP and making references to the research on gluten and whatever, calling people on their appeals to authority. he went in guns blazing, and then he left.

Then Alan came in, said "eeeeeyyyyyyyy" like fonzie, and put on this face:

http://cubemedia.es/img/trollface.png

then he converted most of them into seeing the light of reason. he cleverly did this by allowing them to maintain their "paleo" label while picking apart most of the "paleo" myths they were saying. such phrases as "we're playing on the same team" and "we're not in disagreement," were thrown around quite often, although in the latter case disagreement was sometimes present anyway, but they were confused enough into giving up their old beliefs and agreeing. the discussion ended off with the general sentiment that alan's ideas were far superior to mike's, although they were saying the same thing.

much chuckles and luls were had.

Insight
05-28-2010, 12:14 AM
i should add too, besides this, the most intelligent description of the paleo diet emerging from that discussion was just as "a framework" to find out what foods work for you. the guy whose blog it was said he considered himself "paleo" but still drank milk and didn't care if other people thought it wasn't paleo.

for example, a lot of people report having a poor tolerance to gluten that they never discovered until eliminating wheat from their diet, or that they discovered they were lactose-intolerant only after cutting out milk and saw how much better they felt. are some of these people experiencing the placebo effect? probably. but there were probably some who genuinely made these discoveries as well.

the guy went onto say that after he did the strict "paleo" thing he went onto researching different "tribes" and experimenting further with the foods he eats. eventually he said f*ck it and started drinking milk and noticed no difference, so he still eats dairy as a result. so to him it was just a framework for him to find out that he feels better eating more whole foods and that he had a gluten allergy or whatever but can handle lactose just fine.

is that the long way around to learn that you feel better when eating more whole foods and less processed sh*t? yes. and when you describe it like that it practically stops even having a name. what about it is "paleo" anymore and how is it different from just "trying to eat healthy?" and when you throw in that we don't really know how our ancestors were eating, and that in the end a lot of people discover that some "modern foods" (like milk, lulz) work just fine, it really serves no purpose at all except just as a temporary phase to see if you have a milk and/or gluten allergy.

Heatmiser
05-28-2010, 12:28 AM
is that the long way around to learn that you feel better when eating more whole foods and less processed sh*t? yes. and when you describe it like that it practically stops even having a name. what about it is "paleo" anymore and how is it different from just "trying to eat healthy?"

Well where it differs I think is that a vegan/vegetarian might consider eating lots of grains/pastas and no meat and seed oils "healthy" while a paleo approach would be the exact opposite. Both are convinced they have the healthiest approach. They might both eschew dairy - but for totally different reasons. One lives by grains, the other eats them as a last resort. Both have die-hard supporters and "true believers" full of testimonials, converts, "evidence" etc.

So what is a "healthy" diet then? For 30+ years the government and mainstream science has promoted grains and flours and seed oils as good and saturated animal fats as bad (hence the USDA food pyramid and low-fat diet advice from doctors.) But that paradigm is beginning to change in both the mainstream public and doctors alike - witness the success of people like Atkins/Eades/Paleo etc.

I think most people - from vegans to most paleo-type eaters - would agree on the value of vegetables and some fruits compared to cokes and doughnuts and french fries, but when you get deeper into the amount and types of proteins and fats and other carbohydrates one eats the topic gets much more complicated and contradictory. Hell, paleo followers disagree amongst themsleves and vegans/vegetarians/lacto-ovo/pescetarians clearly cant seem to agree either.

Sounds like pretty much every single topic in bodybuilding and training :)

kusok
05-28-2010, 12:41 AM
But there IS evidence - Including circumstantial, anecdotal, and direct scientific research.

These blogs are all written by guys with extensive education and/or researchers/doctors - not just "bros" off the street - and they discuss the science behind the biological impact that grains/gluten/dairy/fats/carbs/proteins etc. have on the body:

http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/
http://nephropal.blogspot.com/
http://robbwolf.com/
http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/
http://thepaleodiet.blogspot.com/
http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200251h.html


take a look - poke around and make up your own mind.

OK I'm done for the night -

Alan: I'm not a hater or anything. I just think you are way off base on this particular topic, on others I think you are spot on. Hopefully no hard feelings. :) Didn't mean to come off like I was spazzing out or something lol.



This is great, I can give you far more links than that from doctors, PhDs, bodybuilders, Olympic athletes, nutritionists and scientists telling you that fruit is bad, sun is bad, meat is bad, water is bad, air is bad, coffee is bad, coffee is good... grains are good... etc etc etc etc etc

Can you instead direct me please to scientific data showing that grains, dairy and legumes (and whatever else Paleotards have on their black list) are bad for me?

I'm just not so sure how interested I am in speculative stuff.

Insight
05-28-2010, 12:47 AM
Well where it differs I think is that a vegan/vegetarian might consider eating lots of grains/pastas and no meat and seed oils "healthy" while a paleo approach would be the exact opposite. Both are convinced they have the healthiest approach. They might both eschew dairy - but for totally different reasons. One lives by grains, the other eats them as a last resort. Both have die-hard supporters and "true believers" full of testimonials, converts, "evidence" etc.

The point is that if you really get to what the paleo diet is all about, it's these things:

1) Eat whole foods and keep processed sh*t to a minimum
2) Try avoiding wheat to see if you have gluten intolerance issues
3) Try avoiding dairy to see if you have lactose intolerance issues

What about that is really revolutionary?


So what is a "healthy" diet then? For 30+ years the government and mainstream science has promoted grains and flours and seed oils as good and saturated animal fats as bad (hence the USDA food pyramid and low-fat diet advice from doctors.) But that paradigm is beginning to change in both the mainstream public and doctors alike - witness the success of people like Atkins/Eades/Paleo etc.

Unfortunate truth: someone's success in the American marketplace usually has no correlation with the truth content of what they're saying.

As far as I know, there aren't many doctors that view the high consumption of saturated animal fats as "good," and the research isn't really consistent with this either. Although one interesting study that came out last month seemed to indicate that blood cholesterol levels are strongly, strongly influenced by insulin resistance. Eating a high-GL diet for a longass time tends to increase insulin resistance. Eating lots of saturated fat also tends to promote insulin resistance.

It is certainly more simple than "Saturated Fat Good, Carbs Bad" (TM).


I think most people - from vegans to most paleo-type eaters - would agree on the value of vegetables and some fruits compared to cokes and doughnuts and french fries, but when you get deeper into the amount and types of proteins and fats and other carbohydrates one eats the topic gets much more complicated and contradictory. Hell paleo followers disagree and vegans/vegetarians/lacto-ovo/pescetarians clearly cant seem to agree either.

A tip that I've noticed when reading the research: the truth about any "medical condition" often involves a flowing and dynamic process that changes and adapts based on what you throw at the body. Once you figure it out and see the "big picture," it's often quite beautiful and complex and makes you marvel at the magnitude of what nature has managed to produce.

This is usually followed by some jackass unpaid intern journalist that works for an online magazine dumbing the information down in the scariest possible way so as to get the most viewers. And that's what the public then sees. It has nothing to do with accuracy, it has nothing to do with success. It has to do about money.

The best any of us can do is just try to keep learning. Clearly the paleo diet has been successful for you. But is that really enough? Should you not be taking apart right now what really mattered and what didn't? What would happen if you introduced milk back into your diet? Would it really screw up your blood lipid profiles? How about wheat?

What if you switched your diet to an isocaloric one, keeping the macros the same, and still trying to eat healthy, whole foods, but you got away from the "paleo"-obsessiveness? What would happen to your health markers then?

Maybe they'd go down the sh*tter, maybe they'd stay the same. But until you figure it out, you shouldn't be attaching to any one approach. My two cents.

/rant

Heatmiser
05-28-2010, 12:48 AM
Can you instead direct me please to scientific data showing that grains, dairy and legumes (and whatever else Paleotards have on their black list) are bad for me?



Why don't you direct your questions to them?

kusok
05-28-2010, 12:52 AM
Why don't you direct your questions to them?

...

So, you don't have it?

Heatmiser
05-28-2010, 12:57 AM
...

So, you don't have it?


LOL.. I'm not the guy who started this thread, nor do I have the time or inclination to go digging up research for your benefit.

I listed those blogs to show examples of people who know far more about it than you or I. So again, if you are truly interested in discussing the science behind say, gluten and inflammation or the role of insulin in health etc., then seriously post on Dr. Ayers blog and ask him directly. The guy has a PhD in Molecular/Cellular/Developmental Biology and taught at Harvard. I'm assuming he could provide you with far more scientific evidence on the topic than you will discover on your own.

Or ask Dr Davis at heartscanblog. The guy is a practicing cardiologist and can surely give info on wheat and grains as it pertains to heart disease. Or post a question to Robb Wolf. Or any one of the other blogs I listed.

I'm guessing you aren't really all that interested in what they have to say though, despite your insistence on people providing you with research.

kusok
05-28-2010, 01:12 AM
LOL.. I'm not the guy who started this thread, nor do I have the time or inclination to go digging up research for your benefit.

I listed those blogs to show examples of people who know far more about it than you or I. So again, if you are truly interested in discussing the science behind say, gluten and inflammation or the role of insulin in health etc., then seriously post on Dr. Ayers blog and ask him directly. The guy has a PhD in Molecular/Cellular/Developmental Biology and taught at Harvard. I'm assuming he could provide you with far more scientific evidence on the topic than you will discover on your own.

I'm guessing you aren't really all that interested in what he has to say on inflammation and diet though, despite your insistence on people providing you with research.



?

Surely you have at least something in your favorites on your computer or saved that you have researched yourself. Isn't there a single fact or research that you can show me? Who cares about a blog of a Harvard guy? Like I said there are blogs by scientists and doctors who claim fruit to be bad and grains to be good... so what? Let me see some scientific data.

Which research did YOU read when you made up your mind in favor of Paleo? I'd like to see it. I'd love to see some proof that grains are bad for me. As in a controlled experiment.

Heatmiser
05-28-2010, 01:22 AM
The point is that if you really get to what the paleo diet is all about, it's these things:

1) Eat whole foods and keep processed sh*t to a minimum
2) Try avoiding wheat to see if you have gluten intolerance issues
3) Try avoiding dairy to see if you have lactose intolerance issues

What about that is really revolutionary?



I never said it was revolutionary - only that even the simplest of advice "eat healthy" get complicated once you get past "no cokes or doughnuts"

I actually drink a bit of milk and eat cheese from time to time so I'm hardly a paleo "purist" In fact a lot of why I eat what I do is more because it suits my temperament and tastes than purely health reasons. I simply make it through the day with more energy and less hunger-swings the fewer carbs I eat. I'm not afraid of carbs, I just found out after decades of eating them that I am just as strong and getting leaner by reducing them. I sleep better, awaken easier, and do not miss the feeling I had when I ate a lot of carbs like bread and pasta.

I agree with your overall points by the way. It's just frustrating for many people that even the simplest of choices can get confusing if you labor over them. "Should I eat this steak?" what about the Advanced Glycation End prodcuts? What about the saturated fat? Why not fish instead? "What about the mercury?" etc.. one can get paralyzed with too much conflicting data and contradictory experts.

That's why I keep going back to people experimenting for themselves whether it's how much and what kinds of cardio, or lifting frequency/training approaches or dieting or fasting or whatever.

Heatmiser
05-28-2010, 01:45 AM
?

Surely you have at least something in your favorites on your computer or saved that you have researched yourself. Isn't there a single fact or research that you can show me? Who cares about a blog of a Harvard guy? Like I said there are blogs by scientists and doctors who claim fruit to be bad and grains to be good... so what? Let me see some scientific data.

Which research did YOU read when you made up your mind in favor of Paleo? I'd like to see it. I'd love to see some proof that grains are bad for me. As in a controlled experiment.


Why do you keep asking for it from me instead of a specialist in that field? Seriously - do you prefer to get your banking advice from a fisherman? Do you go ask your math teacher for car advice?

I'm not asking anyone to go on the diet -especially if they think its BS. Quit acting like I'm pretending to be an expert on the topic or trying to convince you to follow it if you hate it. I have zero interest in convincing you.

Like I said already I stopped eating breads/grains/pastas etc and have less hunger, more energy, less fatigue throughout the day, same strength, less bloating and gas. My CRP (C-reactive protein) dropped as well (2.4 to 1.3)

I have read what guys like Aragon, Mcdonald, Eades, Atkins, Ornish, Pritikin, Sears, and the various paleo guys think. I have haunted and posted on Lyle's "mean forum" for years. I'm well aware of their general stances and overall arguments.

I found the paleo arguments convincing enough to try out. I didn't compile links to research paper along the way. I simply read what they each had to say and made up my own mind. I have played around with many diets over the years - iso-caloric, low-fat, high carb, frequent feedings, once a day meals etc. I look, feel, and perform best with this diet. Simple as that. Your mileage may vary. Clearly MY mileage varied because when I stopped eating that stuff I felt much better very quickly. It's not that I WANTED to go off breads and grains and rice - god knows I love my cereals and pastas and sandwiches.

Either you will try it or you wont. Repeatedly asking me - a professional concept artist and an amateur lifter, not a doctor or scientist - to convince you with pubmed links and analysis will get you nowhere, but if I had kept eating those things I would still be convincing myself I felt "fine" and that grains were healthy but still feeling somewhat crappy/sleepy/bloated and frequently hungry throughout the day. Until I stopped them, I had no idea how good I would feel for doing it.

To what degree exactly I may be gluten sensitive or insulin resistant is hard to say - I'm certainly not a Celiac sufferer and my blood glucose was always within normal range even when I occasionally binged on lots of simple sugars. It's not like I was in bed with chronic fatigue before. That's my point - I went my whole life getting used to a certain energy level and feeling the same every day. I had no frame of reference to how I would feel without those grains so I assumed I felt as good as could be expected.

So to what degree grains stimulates a low level auto-inflammatory response in me is a moot point - I feel better at a perceptible macro-level, and I'm the only experimental subject I care about.

snorkelman
05-28-2010, 02:07 AM
Why do you keep asking for it from me instead of a specialist in that field?

This isn't the first paleo rodeo. You just happen to be here extolling the virtues of a paleo diet, so people are asking you to justify some of the fundamental concepts - i.e. no grains. It is such a crucial core prohibition that it surely must be based on logic, right? Well, in the nutrition forum if you claim something is better, you will get called on the carpet to prove it with something other than wishful thinking and broscience.

Atkins and other ketards achieve fat loss by prohibiting an entire macronutrient. It is not rocket science to conclude that when you ban many food types, you will by default end up with a caloric reduction. Not a happy individual for long, hence the short term nature of most keto diets. The similar idea rings true for paleo. Of course that is only part of the equation. The other part is that none of us actually know for sure what foods the paleo-man ate. In fact, some recent research is starting to poke holes in some of the basic concepts of the paleo beliefs.

Alan isn't here to pimp his book or newsletter. You never see him tell people to buy it. However, in a recent newsletter he spends quite a bit of time going through the research. It is very succinct and compelling and objective. It is also copyrighted so you won't see it posted here for free.

Heatmiser
05-28-2010, 03:10 AM
This isn't the first paleo rodeo. You just happen to be here extolling the virtues of a paleo diet, so people are asking you to justify some of the fundamental concepts - i.e. no grains. It is such a crucial core prohibition that it surely must be based on logic, right? Well, in the nutrition forum if you claim something is better, you will get called on the carpet to prove it with something other than wishful thinking and broscience.


I personally find these threads/discussions/posts compelling. That, and everything I listed above about my own N=1 experiment. Grains are only one aspect of the paleo diet - but it seems to get the most reaction from people here. Perhaps because the idea of it is so ingrained in lifters as being good for you. After reading through these posts like these and then trying it out on myself, I'm not convinced any longer that they are.

http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/6/23/the-argument-against-cereal-grains.html
http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2010/3/12/the-argument-against-cereal-grains-ii.html

(general overview of the topic of grains) numerous references included. 28 of them I think.

---

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/search/label/gluten
http://www.imminst.org/forum/In-Defense-of-Wheat-t41260.html - interesting thread with several papers cited along the way.

http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com - the entire blog is devoted to inflammation and includes numerous posts about paleo topics. paleo is not just anti-wheat. It's anti-seed oils, and refined sugars and other overtly "neolithic" foods.

misc:
http://nephropal.blogspot.com/search/label/wheat
http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/7/1/where-are-all-the-healthy-whole-grains.html
http://donmatesz.blogspot.com/search/label/Cereal%20grains

http://www.thepaleodiet.com/paleolithic-nutrition.htm - post about wheat and agriculture on neolithic diets.
http://www.thepaleodiet.com/articles/Origins%20Paper%20Final.pdf - more of the same.
http://www.thepaleodiet.com/faqs/ = general FAQ
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/08/health/08glut.html
http://www.foodintol.com/wheat.asp - bottom of the page has a long list of cited research pages on gluten/wheat sensitivity.

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/ - again the whole blog has tons of analysis of research papers. To numerous to list here. Look for the words gluten/grains in the sidebar entries.

http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/search/label/Wheat - 46 short posts about wheat from a cardiologist.

http://www.amazon.com/Dangerous-Grains-Gluten-Cereal-Hazardous/dp/1583331298 - entire book on the subject.

stephenmorrow
05-28-2010, 07:08 AM
Why do you keep asking for it from me instead of a specialist in that field? Seriously - do you prefer to get your banking advice from a fisherman? Do you go ask your math teacher for car advice?

I'm not asking anyone to go on the diet -especially if they think its BS. Quit acting like I'm pretending to be an expert on the topic or trying to convince you to follow it if you hate it. I have zero interest in convincing you.

Like I said already I stopped eating breads/grains/pastas etc and have less hunger, more energy, less fatigue throughout the day, same strength, less bloating and gas. My CRP (C-reactive protein) dropped as well (2.4 to 1.3)

I have read what guys like Aragon, Mcdonald, Eades, Atkins, Ornish, Pritikin, Sears, and the various paleo guys think. I have haunted and posted on Lyle's "mean forum" for years. I'm well aware of their general stances and overall arguments.

I found the paleo arguments convincing enough to try out. I didn't compile links to research paper along the way. I simply read what they each had to say and made up my own mind. I have played around with many diets over the years - iso-caloric, low-fat, high carb, frequent feedings, once a day meals etc. I look, feel, and perform best with this diet. Simple as that. Your mileage may vary. Clearly MY mileage varied because when I stopped eating that stuff I felt much better very quickly. It's not that I WANTED to go off breads and grains and rice - god knows I love my cereals and pastas and sandwiches.

Either you will try it or you wont. Repeatedly asking me - a professional concept artist and an amateur lifter, not a doctor or scientist - to convince you with pubmed links and analysis will get you nowhere, but if I had kept eating those things I would still be convincing myself I felt "fine" and that grains were healthy but still feeling somewhat crappy/sleepy/bloated and frequently hungry throughout the day. Until I stopped them, I had no idea how good I would feel for doing it.

To what degree exactly I may be gluten sensitive or insulin resistant is hard to say - I'm certainly not a Celiac sufferer and my blood glucose was always within normal range even when I occasionally binged on lots of simple sugars. It's not like I was in bed with chronic fatigue before. That's my point - I went my whole life getting used to a certain energy level and feeling the same every day. I had no frame of reference to how I would feel without those grains so I assumed I felt as good as could be expected.

So to what degree grains stimulates a low level auto-inflammatory response in me is a moot point - I feel better at a perceptible macro-level, and I'm the only experimental subject I care about.

I have oatmeal, eggs, and milk for breakfast every morning which i considered to be healthy, i guess not?

kusok
05-28-2010, 08:32 AM
I personally find these threads/discussions/posts compelling. That, and everything I listed above about my own N=1 experiment. Grains are only one aspect of the paleo diet - but it seems to get the most reaction from people here. Perhaps because the idea of it is so ingrained in lifters as being good for you. After reading through these posts like these and then trying it out on myself, I'm not convinced any longer that they are.

http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/6/23/the-argument-against-cereal-grains.html
http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2010/3/12/the-argument-against-cereal-grains-ii.html

(general overview of the topic of grains) numerous references included. 28 of them I think.

---

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/search/label/gluten
http://www.imminst.org/forum/In-Defense-of-Wheat-t41260.html - interesting thread with several papers cited along the way.

http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com - the entire blog is devoted to inflammation and includes numerous posts about paleo topics. paleo is not just anti-wheat. It's anti-seed oils, and refined sugars and other overtly "neolithic" foods.

misc:
http://nephropal.blogspot.com/search/label/wheat
http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/7/1/where-are-all-the-healthy-whole-grains.html
http://donmatesz.blogspot.com/search/label/Cereal%20grains

http://www.thepaleodiet.com/paleolithic-nutrition.htm - post about wheat and agriculture on neolithic diets.
http://www.thepaleodiet.com/articles/Origins%20Paper%20Final.pdf - more of the same.
http://www.thepaleodiet.com/faqs/ = general FAQ
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/08/health/08glut.html
http://www.foodintol.com/wheat.asp - bottom of the page has a long list of cited research pages on gluten/wheat sensitivity.

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/ - again the whole blog has tons of analysis of research papers. To numerous to list here. Look for the words gluten/grains in the sidebar entries.

http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/search/label/Wheat - 46 short posts about wheat from a cardiologist.

http://www.amazon.com/Dangerous-Grains-Gluten-Cereal-Hazardous/dp/1583331298 - entire book on the subject.






Right off the start, aren't your first 2 links from the guy who also says fruit are candy from a tree and should not be eaten?



so...


Help me out here...

m1ke78
05-28-2010, 08:44 AM
Right off the start, aren't your first 2 links from the guy who also says fruit are candy from a tree and should not be eaten?



so...


Help me out here...

In the context of a strict "paleo" diet, they are candy. If you're eating all the veggies you need, you don't need anything from fruit. If someone isn't trying to lean out, then whatever go for it. And for many, myself included, the sugar content in the fruit tends to create cravings for more of it.

If you're looking at the entire spectrum of food available, fruit is a pretty solid choice compared to a twinkie. If you're looking at what most people on paleo are eating, fruit is candy compared to veggies.

kusok
05-28-2010, 09:31 AM
In the context of a strict "paleo" diet, they are candy. If you're eating all the veggies you need, you don't need anything from fruit. If someone isn't trying to lean out, then whatever go for it. And for many, myself included, the sugar content in the fruit tends to create cravings for more of it.

If you're looking at the entire spectrum of food available, fruit is a pretty solid choice compared to a twinkie. If you're looking at what most people on paleo are eating, fruit is candy compared to veggies.



I'm the opposite. The high fiber and high water of fruit satisfies me like nothing else even when in caloric deficit. In fact isn't high fiber/high water particularly known combination for reducing appetite?


My point was that the above poster provides links where he picks and chooses. Furthermore the links are often from people who can't hold a candle to Aragon's reason:

http://freetheanimal.com/2010/02/is-paleo-literal-or-mythology.html

(see 1st link of the poster I quoted, in my link above Aragon and him debate on some things, harris gives in)
Also, the links the above poster provides are where the authors cherry-pick stuff that supports their fanatical anti-grain etc views without including any research that doesn't support their dogmatic beliefs.

m1ke78
05-28-2010, 10:46 AM
I'm the opposite. The high fiber and high water of fruit satisfies me like nothing else even when in caloric deficit. In fact isn't high fiber/high water particularly known combination for reducing appetite?


My point was that the above poster provides links where he picks and chooses. Furthermore the links are often from people who can't hold a candle to Aragon's reason:

URL removed due to low post count

(see 1st link of the poster I quoted, in my link above Aragon and him debate on some things, harris gives in)
Also, the links the above poster provides are where the authors cherry-pick stuff that supports their fanatical anti-grain etc views without including any research that doesn't support their dogmatic beliefs.

I looked through the comments and saw the back and forth between harris and aragon, but I didn't see harris give in anywhere. As there are about 1 billion comments, it's entirely possible I missed it.

As for fruit satisfying you, you don't find that you're hungry again in an hour or two after having fruit?

I'll echo Heatmiser who is far more eloquent and patient than I am. I "don't have a dog in this fight". I wanted to clarify why fruit is considered candy. A little is fine, but you wouldn't want to eat 5 snickers a day right?

Also I agree that "paleo" isn't an accurate title, as it really is just a starting point or framework, but you have to call it something right? "Eating healthy" just doesn't encompass it since there are very different ideas of what is and is not healthy.

It's made a huge change in my life, and I was eating "perfect" before. Lots of whole grains, moderate-low "healthy" fats, exercising regularly. I didn't know how much better I could look, feel, and perform until I decided to try it for sh*ts and giggles. People talked so much about how good it was I figured why not try it 30 days and prove it wrong or find out what I've been missing.

seanb1979
05-28-2010, 10:54 AM
As for fruit satisfying you, you don't find that you're hungry again in an hour or two after having fruit?


Well, it is a low calorie food after all. About a year ago I started incorporating more fresh fruit into my diet and overall I felt much better. I don't use it as a meal replacement, though.

kusok
05-28-2010, 11:02 AM
I looked through the comments and saw the back and forth between harris and aragon, but I didn't see harris give in anywhere. As there are about 1 billion comments, it's entirely possible I missed it.

As for fruit satisfying you, you don't find that you're hungry again in an hour or two after having fruit?

I'll echo Heatmiser who is far more eloquent and patient than I am. I "don't have a dog in this fight". I wanted to clarify why fruit is considered candy. A little is fine, but you wouldn't want to eat 5 snickers a day right?

Also I agree that "paleo" isn't an accurate title, as it really is just a starting point or framework, but you have to call it something right? "Eating healthy" just doesn't encompass it since there are very different ideas of what is and is not healthy.

It's made a huge change in my life, and I was eating "perfect" before. Lots of whole grains, moderate-low "healthy" fats, exercising regularly. I didn't know how much better I could look, feel, and perform until I decided to try it for sh*ts and giggles. People talked so much about how good it was I figured why not try it 30 days and prove it wrong or find out what I've been missing.



I understand ^^^ but saying something worked for YOU (and for God knows what reasons) doesn't equal "grains are bad", right?


In other words, everything you wrote doesn't mean grains can't be beneficial, right? THAT is the point. There are just as many people who claim to have gotten better results because they dropped fruit and switched to oats for their carbs... Does that mean anything? No.

m1ke78
05-28-2010, 11:17 AM
I understand ^^^ but saying something worked for YOU (and for God knows what reasons) doesn't equal "grains are bad", right?


In other words, everything you wrote doesn't mean grains can't be beneficial, right? THAT is the point. There are just as many people who claim to have gotten better results because they dropped fruit and switched to oats for their carbs... Does that mean anything? No.

Based on the extremely small sample size of friends/family who have eliminated gluten grains for 30 days, I believe that a very large percentage of people have at least some level of gluten intolerance. It only varies by degree.

And again, even if you were one of the very few people with no gluten issues at all, there are still more nutrient dense food choices that could replace the grains.

pointz54
06-03-2010, 01:02 PM
Arguing about the Paleo diet is like arguing about biology, when the real discussion lies in chemistry, which is what biology boils down to. Saying grains/dairy is bad because cavemen didn't eat them cannot possibly hope to be a credible statement. Not only scientifically, but because of the comedic fact that cavemen had a life expectancy of 20-30 years. What you need to be asking is why people are not in need of grains/dairy or how they perform without them.

stephenmorrow
06-03-2010, 01:12 PM
Arguing about the Paleo diet is like arguing about biology, when the real discussion lies in chemistry, which is what biology boils down to. Saying grains/dairy is bad because cavemen didn't eat them cannot possibly hope to be a credible statement. Not only scientifically, but because of the comedic fact that cavemen had a life expectancy of 20-30 years. What you need to be asking is why people are not in need of grains/dairy or how they perform without them.

Look at the environment we live in today and then compare it to the environment the cavemen live in

whatevergirl
06-03-2010, 01:15 PM
Gee, my paleo thread was friendlier. :D J/K

The thing about paleo is...with modern science now, there is no reason to not eat whole grains. (unrefined) Back in caveman times, they apparently believed that whole grains had certain toxins that would be bad for them. So...when it comes to whole grains, I don't follow paleo...and sometimes, I eat dairy. (only organic and sometimes yogurt) But, I like the rest of what it's about.

Without the whole grains, the diet can be abysmally boring.

pointz54
06-04-2010, 09:28 AM
Look at the environment we live in today and then compare it to the environment the cavemen live in

Aside from the fact that I'm pretty sure the environment we live in today is far worse than the environment the cavemen lived in, I believe you were trying to make the point that I was trying to make. Just like saying that the difference in life expectancy proves a point without looking at the factors involved is silly and baseless, so is saying that only the things cavemen ate are healthy/natural for the body.

rubbertoe20
06-04-2010, 10:13 AM
I'm reading Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon, which supports the paleo diet but also advocates the use of grains as long as they are properly prepared; soaked, sprouted. The reason for soaking grains is to break down the phytic acid and the many anti-nutrients grains have. So I'm guessing as long as you soak your oats and rice overnight consuming them wouldn't be a problem.

snorkelman
06-04-2010, 10:28 AM
I'm reading Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon, which supports the paleo diet but also advocates the use of grains as long as they are properly prepared; soaked, sprouted. The reason for soaking grains is to break down the phytic acid and the many anti-nutrients grains have. So I'm guessing as long as you soak your oats and rice overnight consuming them wouldn't be a problem.


Interesting. I looked up her and her cookbook.

"Topics include the health benefits of traditional fats and oils (including butter and coconut oil); dangers of vegetarianism; problems with modern soy foods; health benefits of sauces and gravies; proper preparation of whole grain products; pros and cons of milk consumption; easy-to-prepare enzyme enriched condiments and beverages; and appropriate diets for babies and children.

Sally Fallon is the Founder of A Campaign for Real Milk (www.realmilk.com) and President of the Weston A. Price Foundation (www.westonaprice.org). She is the editor of the Foundation's quarterly magazine Wise Traditions in Food, Farming and the Healing Arts and has published articles in a number of alternative health publications including Nexus Magazine, The World & I and the Townsend Letter for Doctors and Patients. A resident of Washington D.C., she is the mother of four healthy children. Mary G. Enig, Ph.D., of Silver Spring, Maryland, is an expert of international renown in the field of human biochemistry and lipids."

whatevergirl
06-04-2010, 10:31 AM
when it comes to grains...just make sure they're not refined. You want whole grains (thus the term ''whole'') because with refined, the bran and germ have been removed...and you miss out on those nutrients.

Just a little grain trivia. :)

madelineoneil
06-04-2010, 11:14 AM
ive enjoyed reading this thread. i have just recently started a "paleo" type diet (kind of afraid to actually call it that after reading this, hehe) but im doing it more for weight loss and maintenance, not becuase i think "grains are bad" or something. i normally follow a low carb diet, but i felt it was time to change it up a bit...so i ditched the dairy and added alot more veggies, and i little fruit. i like it so far, i have better luck keeping my overall calories down eating this way.

just my 2 cents. :) im interested to see how this turns out, i too am trying it for a month or so. i have a feeling im lactose intolerant in some way, because i never poop ever, so im wondering if dairy was the culprit.

like i said, interesting read! whats straw man mean?

FXBrassard
06-04-2010, 12:36 PM
So I've been on the paleo diet for 3 months, it eliminated 100% of my acne (I used to have it pretty bad), I was 11% bodyfat I'm now 8%, and I even gained some strenght and muscles in the proccess. Are you telling me Alan that all of this was just part of my imagination?

Insight
06-04-2010, 12:42 PM
i have a feeling im lactose intolerant in some way, because i never poop ever

I don't know how to interpret this sentence.

madelineoneil
06-04-2010, 01:06 PM
I don't know how to interpret this sentence.

:) i guess what i meant was i have trouble "going", and i was eating alot of dairy, and i thought it might be the problem. so i eliminated it, hoping that it helps. ive tried EVERYthing.

m1ke78
06-04-2010, 01:54 PM
:) i guess what i meant was i have trouble "going", and i was eating alot of dairy, and i thought it might be the problem. so i eliminated it, hoping that it helps. ive tried EVERYthing.

My wife had that issue her entire life. She is lactose intolerant so she already limited dairy pretty heavily. Going paleo fixed the problem for her. It may have been the complete elimination of dairy that did it, but I don't think so since we occasionally have cheese/ice cream now and she doesn't have that issue anymore.

Good luck :)

madelineoneil
06-04-2010, 02:15 PM
My wife had that issue her entire life. She is lactose intolerant so she already limited dairy pretty heavily. Going paleo fixed the problem for her. It may have been the complete elimination of dairy that did it, but I don't think so since we occasionally have cheese/ice cream now and she doesn't have that issue anymore.

Good luck :)


that is so good to hear! it SUCKS not being able to poop no matter what. ugh.

sorry, didnt mean to hijack! :)

pointz54
06-04-2010, 04:51 PM
So I've been on the paleo diet for 3 months, it eliminated 100% of my acne (I used to have it pretty bad), I was 11% bodyfat I'm now 8%, and I even gained some strenght and muscles in the proccess. Are you telling me Alan that all of this was just part of my imagination?

It means that you responded well to a low carb diet but does not say anything on the subject of cavemen food being the only good food for you.

I think it's pretty absurd to see people alter literally dozens of different factors, find success, and then turning around and say "Boy howdy those cavemen sure knew exactly what was good for us! Everyone who says we should eat exactly like cavemen must be right!" For example people saying they cut out dairy, maybe that was the cut in carbs, fat, or calories that you needed to break a plateau. Maybe going low carb was the stimulus behind acne clearing up and bf% going down (both of which are clearly documented effects). Maybe you thinking that a caveman was at the pinnacle of perfect nutrition was the mental placebo effect that pushed you. Whatever it is, giving weight to this whole "paleo" thing is absurd. If you want to eat low carb, then do it for the well documented scientific reasons for it. Don't go making statements like "grain is bad because cavemen didn't eat them".

Fury22
06-04-2010, 05:47 PM
It means that you responded well to a low carb diet but does not say anything on the subject of cavemen food being the only good food for you.

I think it's pretty absurd to see people alter literally dozens of different factors, find success, and then turning around and say "Boy howdy those cavemen sure knew exactly what was good for us! Everyone who says we should eat exactly like cavemen must be right!" For example people saying they cut out dairy, maybe that was the cut in carbs, fat, or calories that you needed to break a plateau. Maybe going low carb was the stimulus behind acne clearing up and bf% going down (both of which are clearly documented effects). Maybe you thinking that a caveman was at the pinnacle of perfect nutrition was the mental placebo effect that pushed you. Whatever it is, giving weight to this whole "paleo" thing is absurd. If you want to eat low carb, then do it for the well documented scientific reasons for it. Don't go making statements like "grain is bad because cavemen didn't eat them".

The main argument against grains, at least in my view, comes from the fact that most grains we have access to are highly processed and nutritionally very poor. Think sandwich bread, pasta, even "whole wheat" pastas, crackers, etc.

Now compare that to properly prepared grains (soaked and sprouted). The difference is HUGE nutrionally and quality-wise. This was my main reason for giving them up, and I haven't looked back except for the occasional treat (http://www.freshcupcakes.com/flavors.html).

One thing I never had a problem with when studying abroad in Russia was bread. I could get REAL fuking quality bread for 50 cents. Here, even crappy, process HFCS/bleached flour bread labeled as "natural" or whatever cost $3-4, and real bread, if you can find it, costs even more. Therefore I do fine without it. I do fine without oatmeal, muesli and pasta. Plus my stomach thanks me for it. I actually just had one of the above cupcake with dinner tonight, and I'm definitely feeling it. Take that out of the equation and despite the massive amount of food I ate, I would be fine.

Eating for me isn't boring without grains (again, except for the occasional cheat). Sweet potatoes and regular potatoes are fine for me. I don't feel like I need rice or pasta or oats, and in the grand scheme of things I really don't need a massive load of carbs anyway. Protein and fat form the bulk of my diet, and carbs from potatoes and fruit fill in the rest.

Again though, for me the argument against grains and carbs for the most part stems from the quality of them, which is usually pretty low. Properly prepared grains are fine, but unless you do it yourself or can buy it, it's just not worth the effort.

On another note, I don't hate or blame grains for the world's health problems like a lot of Paleos do. The fact is that grains at times have kept a lot of people alive.
Think about the massive sieges of the World Wars: what did people eat? Grains, because that was the only food they had, albeit in very small amounts. Grains have been instrumental in keeping people alive as a cheap and storable source of food.

Paleo diets, Vegetarian and Vegan Diets (veganism I have no respect for) are priviledges we have as developed society. In another place I probably wouldn't have a choice. Oatmeal or not eating?? Yeah I'll take oats.

FXBrassard
06-04-2010, 09:50 PM
Fury22, have you been able to gain mass on paleo?

I'm not a low carber btw, I consume lots of sweet potatoes and veggies/fruits

alexandra1984
06-19-2010, 07:17 AM
I don't see how cutting beans out of a diet for the sake of being "Paleo" makes any sense. Are these not grown out of the earth? Are they not as "paleoithic" as a friggin apple? And are oats not grown out of the ground just like a tomato or any other vegetable for that matter? I feel as though the Paleo diet takes it to extremes. How can one enjoy going out to eat? (Well I guess cavemen didn't have resturants so eating out would be a HUGE "no-no" for a Paleo) I guess if you want to sit there with your sprig of dry lettuce but even then I'm sure the salad mix most restuarants use is not organic, therefore covered with pesticides (which once again I'm sure didn't exist when the cavemen were alive). IMO it's a pointless diet and another one of those "carb feared" productions.

onawave
08-09-2010, 10:14 PM
this has been an awesome thread...

i can understand the for's and against for this method. but hey, if someone tries it, and it works - then best of luck....

its definately made me consider my current diet, even to the point where id like to give it a go for 60 days....

hard work, but if i get ther results i want *without* calorie counting - all the better for me....

seanb1979
08-09-2010, 11:56 PM
I wonder how many paleo dieters actually include insects, grubs and worms in their diet.

More great news for the paleo diet:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/files/2009/04/3630_waking_the_baby_mammoth-7_04700300.JPG

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2009/04/22/waking-and-cloning-baby-mammoths/

Acevedo85
10-10-2010, 07:15 PM
Heatmiser -- One more thing. If I wanted to appeal to authority, I'd mention that I have MDs & PhDs as clients. I'm also gonna give a continuing education lecture to a group of physicians on October 21st in SoCal. Are you a physician or surgeon in need of CE credits to maintain your license to practice? Great, you'll earn 22 CEs by attending. Thus, I can call several doctors MY STUDENTS. But guess what... It's still a weak appeal to authority, since the closest thing to true 'authority' is objective research data.

lmfao owned

Kayslay
10-22-2010, 04:29 PM
You guys are ridiculous...


Why are we debating this "eating like a caveman" side of things atall?

Why not just focus on how the diet is actually different from a standard diet, and whatever differences in health arise as a result of it?

i.e. lets skip "cavemen ate this way, it's most natural / YEAH BUT THEY ONLY LIVED TO 20 BLAH BLAH" etc ad nauseum, and get down to:

-What is advocated in paleo that is different (e.g. no grains)

-What evidence is there for the benefit of making those changes - studies, clinical data?

And in the absense of those, the next best things - which IMO includes results seen by nutritionists/trainers who know their **** (ultimately they do "do research" of their own, albeit not perfectly controlled double blind placebo, and with varying quality of methodologies), and even anecdotes from objective, critical-thinking trainees who know their bodies.


"what cavemen ate/whether we should eat like cavemen" is completely irrelevant. It's a diet that alot of people claim is beneficial, they clearly define how to go about eating to gain those benefits, now lets find out whether or not those claims are true.

Jaquelyn Kay
01-14-2011, 07:16 PM
AWESOME!!! ;)
I always just tell everyone to go pick up The Paleo Diet, or The Paleo Solution, read it for themselves and THEN have them tell us what they think....it really opens your eyes!
Paleo has been a way of life for me for over a year now. I do have non paleo cheats now and again but I feel the BEST when I don't!

AllFapInsurance
01-14-2011, 07:44 PM
I've done the paleo diet for as long as a year at one time. I feel great when I'm on it.

Also, I laugh my ass off at people who are cult-like in their defense of it. When people tell me they eat grains, I applaude them and make suggestions on tasty grain filled meals. I talk to some of these crossfit d-bags and they're ready to kill me if I even mention the word rice or wheat, etc.

Paleo works
Everything else also works
Arrogance in your method = big load of fail

That is all.

alan aragon
01-14-2011, 07:52 PM
There's nothing about the Paleo diet that isn't hilarious.

TheOneAboveAll
01-14-2011, 08:06 PM
Sounds like hippie bull**** to me. I guess it could work for a cut as it will limit the food choices. Still, there are better options out there.

GoPack12
01-14-2011, 09:52 PM
"paleo" is not a diet, they say so themselves. It is not designed to build muscle or cut weight, just to eat as healthy and clean as possible. Personally i think that paleo (like most things) will always have lovers and haters. There are those that swear by it and those that curse its very existence.

The goal of any "diet" or workout routine or anything you do is that it fits you, it works for you and you like it.

yieldtonothing
01-14-2011, 09:58 PM
this diet kinda forces you into low carbing and puts more of a premium n fats (nuts..meats)....nothing wrong with that.

if i was doing paleo, i'd be having a bowl of nuts and berries for breakfast instead of yogurt and cereal

AllFapInsurance
01-14-2011, 10:21 PM
There's nothing about the Paleo diet that isn't hilarious.

So you don't think it has any benefit or place in someone's meal plan?

alan aragon
01-14-2011, 11:11 PM
So you don't think it has any benefit or place in someone's meal plan?Benefit compared to a typical crappy diet of the average couch potato? Sure.

Special effects based on assumptions about our prehistoric ancestors? LOL, no.

JerryB
01-14-2011, 11:23 PM
If you are on the Paleo diet don't forget to add insects like human species consumed during the Paleolithic period.

AllFapInsurance
01-14-2011, 11:29 PM
If you are on the Paleo diet don't forget to add insects like human species consumed during the Paleolithic period.

I ate insects when I was in SE Asia. They have a lot of protein per gram. Come at me bro!!!!

Beech27
01-14-2011, 11:56 PM
Whether paleo is a potentially healthful diet is, in my view, ultimately irrelevant. Why submit one's self to such blatently orthorexis tendencies, when it's possible to achieve health/fitness goals while consuming post-agriculture foods?

Los_Diablo
01-24-2011, 09:57 PM
Milk is a great tool for building mass if that's your goal. It's a huge hinderance if you're trying to lean out.

I'm on the fence if oats have any serious negatives like wheat does, but if you're looking for nutrient density there are far better options so it becomes moot.

Nah, excess calories are a hinderance not milk.

Jodie10
03-06-2014, 10:15 AM
Any other opinions on this diet guys? I'd like to hear them

Fantastic for elimination of allergens, if you suspect you have food intolerances. I have dairy and wheat/grain 'issues' and eating paleo, ie., eliminating them from my diet, helped me immensely. Since eliminating grains my osteoarthritis symptoms have really lessened.

I still eat Greek yougurt and cottage cheese, they don't bother my stomach like milk does and I like to get my protein/calcium fix in this form.

:)

ironwill2008
03-06-2014, 10:21 AM
http://assets.bodybuilding.com/forum/images/icons/icon4.gif



I still eat Greek yougurt and cottage cheese, they don't bother my stomach like milk does and I like to get my protein/calcium fix in this form.


Dairy products are not on the 'Appproved for Paleo' list of foods.

snorkelman
03-06-2014, 10:53 AM
Dairy products are not on the 'Appproved for Paleo' list of foods.

She sounds like a selective follower. Just like the paleo folks who ingest whey, like our paleo ancestors did my spray drying milk after membrane filtration separating the proteins, and denaturing in Mother Earth's awesome sun.

ironwill2008
03-06-2014, 11:09 AM
She sounds like a selective follower. Just like the paleo folks who ingest whey, like our paleo ancestors did my spray drying milk after membrane filtration separating the proteins, and denaturing in Mother Earth's awesome sun.

There seem to be a lot of "selective" followers. :rolleyes:

jennanelmark
05-18-2014, 12:20 PM
I love being Paleo, my body just feel better. I like knowing that everything I am consuming is all natural and not processed or filled with ingredients that I can not pronounce the names of. I have been Paleo on and off for 2 years and love it. I recently discovered Paleo Ranch beef Jerky that has become one of my favorite snacks. It is 100% grass fed cows, and has no sugars or growth hormones, it is products like that that make me feel less guilty about what I am putting in to my body.

afries
05-18-2014, 12:26 PM
Some people love it and have had great results from it

Mrpb
05-18-2014, 12:29 PM
I like knowing that everything I am consuming is all natural and not processed or filled with ingredients that I can not pronounce the names of.

You don't need to eat Paleo for that.

Recommended reading:
http://paleomovement.com/alan-aragon-paleo-critic/