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PixelVibration
05-23-2010, 01:33 AM
Richard Kuklinski - A contract killer who claims to have killed over 200 people.

In one case, one of his victims started praying to God. Richard said " I will give you 30 minutes, if God doesn't save you or change the circumstances, I will kill you"

After 30 minutes of desperately pleading for his life to god, the victim was mercilessly killed.


You can not use the free will argument. It was Richard's free will to kill the victim but not the victims free will to die. The victim was terrified for his life for 30 minutes begging God to save him. Pretty sure God never saved him because God doesn't exist.

r0gue6
05-23-2010, 01:34 AM
It was his time to go, God has a plan for all.

lolz.

ChicagoMan
05-23-2010, 01:37 AM
Oh shut up you damn bum. If this is how you justify God not "exisiting" then you are an idiot. The whole "why did God let ____ happen" as an argument, to justify God not exisitng is boring. Free will does not matter wether you did not want to die, free will is anyone doing anything at any time, be it right, or wrong. Free will is the ability to choose between right or wrong, to smoke or do not smoke, etc, you can do anything hence: free will.

r0gue6
05-23-2010, 01:40 AM
Oh shut up you damn bum. If this is how you justify God not "exisiting" then you are an idiot. The whole "why did God let ____ happen" as an argument, to justify God not exisitng is boring. Free will does not matter wether you did not want to die, free will is anyone doing anything at any time, be it right, or wrong. Free will is the ability to choose between right or wrong, to smoke or do not smoke, etc, you can do anything hence: free will.

Free will = God killing all of mankind cuz they used free will.

RedMyRedYouRed
05-23-2010, 01:41 AM
the man used his free will to pray when he should of used his free will to fight till the death

PixelVibration
05-23-2010, 01:49 AM
the man used his free will to pray when he should of used his free will to fight till the death

How do you know he wasn't tied up? Do you think Richard would have his LIVE victim just free and about?

PixelVibration
05-23-2010, 01:52 AM
Oh shut up you damn bum.The whole "why did God let ____ happen" as an argument, to justify God not exisitng is boring. Free will does not matter wether you did not want to die, free will is anyone doing anything at any time, be it right, or wrong. Free will is the ability to choose between right or wrong, to smoke or do not smoke, etc, you can do anything hence: free will.



If this is how you justify God not "exisiting" then you are an idiot.

Actually it is a very good reason to think God does not exist. If God loves everyone, He can save those who are in trouble. If a tsunami is coming, he can stop the tsunami and prevent thousands of people dieing. This man pleaded for his life, for 30 straight minutes. Imagine what went through his head, imagine how sick he felt knowing he was going to be killed. He pleaded with desperation.... no answer. God just watched... and I am sure tears were running down God's puppy eyes.

ChicagoMan
05-23-2010, 01:55 AM
What would be the point of life then? To be robots?

Hearnothing
05-23-2010, 01:55 AM
It was his time to go, God has a plan for all.

lolz.

Or he works in mysterious way. No one know what his plan is!

PixelVibration
05-23-2010, 01:55 AM
What would be the point of life then? To be robots?

if what? Make your point.

ChicagoMan
05-23-2010, 01:57 AM
if what? Make your point.

I made my point, maybe you should re-read your post then read mine. If God stopped everything from happening that was negative in any shape or form, life would be robotic.

r0gue6
05-23-2010, 01:58 AM
I made my point, maybe you should re-read your post then read mine. If God stopped everything from happening that was negative in any shape or form, life would be robotic.

So God exists to make life non-robotic?

Really?

ChicagoMan
05-23-2010, 01:59 AM
God created the universe; your god of the gaps argument will not work on me. The universe was created with a purpose of allowing life to "live" its course, good or bad.

Cannonsex
05-23-2010, 02:07 AM
If God did exist I think he's dead or just doesn't give a **** anymore.

PixelVibration
05-23-2010, 02:10 AM
I made my point, maybe you should re-read your post then read mine. If God stopped everything from happening that was negative in any shape or form, life would be robotic.

You did not make your point.


Life would not be robotic, it would be peaceful. If God stopped tsunamis, stopped murders, stopped wars, and guided people through his actual words, instead of mysterious interpretations from scriptures, the world would be a better place.

It would also be a better world if this so called god interacted with his beloved creations on a regular basis...

If you take a look at the world, it is something you would expect to see in a universe without the kind of god described in scripture.



EDIT: Ironically, Life is a little robotic with religions hanging around. You follow orders, you do what you are told, you do not question your master.

PixelVibration
05-23-2010, 02:11 AM
God created the universe; your god of the gaps argument will not work on me. The universe was created with a purpose of allowing life to "live" its course, good or bad.


What exactly is God? How do you know this God created the universe? How do you know the universe was created with a purpose?

Are you sure it was created for life to live its course? I thought religious folks thought life was created to worship and live by Gods rules.

ChicagoMan
05-23-2010, 02:18 AM
You did not make your point.


Life would not be robotic, it would be peaceful. If God stopped tsunamis, stopped murders, stopped wars, and guided people through his actual words, instead of mysterious interpretations from scriptures, the world would be a better place.

It would also be a better world if this so called god interacted with his beloved creations on a regular basis...

If you take a look at the world, it is something you would expect to see in a universe without the kind of god described in scripture.



EDIT: Ironically, Life is a little robotic with religions hanging around. You follow orders, you do what you are told, you do not question your master.
Thats the beauty of life: a tsunami, a tornado etc. When did God ever give scriptures of words? People who interpret how God wants people to live are called prophets, not gods. I dont behave like a slave or worship a master. I believe in a creator, and try the best I can to be a decent man in a viscious world. The beauty of life is evil and viscious. Plain and simple. There would be no point to life if everything was peaceful. It would be robotic and cult like. Everyone would walk the same tune and have no opinion. An argument could be considered unpeaceful just in the sense you may yell at each other. Violence and crime does not disprove a creator or a God. You yourself said you are ditest who believes in a creator. Your just using creator as a synonymn for God. Plain and simple. The purpose of life is to make people think. The universe is large enough to make people constantly wonder about it. "Mother nature" is beautiful in the sense it can be viscious, or it can be the most "beautiful" thing you've ever seen. The same with outerspace, look up pictures and just try to understand that htings are much bigger then you and I, and no one will ever have the answers. Arguing about it is a circular argument and gets no where. You believe what you believe, I believe what I believe. Neither is smarter then the other. The purpose of life is to survive, and survival means feeling pain, love, hate, envy, distrust, passion, yadda yadda. It is what it is, and thats life. We could be some micro-ogranisms on some pee tree dish, or we could be the chosen species created by something and allowed to live as we feel. Be it right or wrong, and see the magic of nature and the universe in the process be it pain or happiness. Everyone doubts at some point in their life its natural. But one thing is certain, you will live, then you will die. Inbetween being born and dying is: "life."

PixelVibration
05-23-2010, 02:22 AM
Thats the beauty of life: a tsunami, a tornado etc. When did God ever give scriptures of words? People who interpret how God wants people to live are called prophets, not gods. I dont behave like a slave or worship a master. I believe in a creator, and try the best I can to be a decent man in a viscious world. The beauty of life is evil and viscious. Plain and simple. There would be no point to life if everything was peaceful. It would be robotic and cult like. Everyone would walk the same tune and have no opinion. An argument could be considered unpeaceful just in the sense you may yell at each other. Violence and crime does not disprove a creator or a God. You yourself said you are ditest who believes in a creator. Your just using creator as a synonymn for God. Plain and simple. The purpose of life is to make people think. The universe is large enough to make people constantly wonder about it. "Mother nature" is beautiful in the sense it can be viscious, or it can be the most "beautiful" thing you've ever seen. The same with outerspace, look up pictures and just try to understand that htings are much bigger then you and I, and no one will ever have the answers. Arguing about it is a circular argument and gets no where. You believe what you believe, I believe what I believe. Neither is smarter then the other.

I should have made myself clear then. I was talking about a theistic god, for example the christian god, the muslim god...etc.


How is it the beauty of life? Obviously you haven't lost a family member who died for no just cause.

AKR
05-23-2010, 02:25 AM
What would be the point of life then? To be robots?


How exactly would people be robots if god saved people from certain situations or didn't allow people to do certain things? Can you hurt people by just thinking about hurting them? No, there's a limitation. Can you shoot them with lasers out of your eyes? No, another limitation. Does that make you a robot? No. God could simply keep people from being able to hurt each other while being free to do other things. Why should a-holes even have free will anyway? OH noes, a poor child molester or serial killer might not get to do everything he wants! Poor him! See how stupid that sounds?

Should we not have law enforcement because they take away people's freedom to murder each other and do other things? If some chick was getting raped, would you stand back and be like, "well gee, I'm awfully sorry miss, but I don't want to take away your rapists free will to force you to have sex with him."

ChicagoMan
05-23-2010, 02:26 AM
I should have made myself clear then. I was talking about a theistic god, for example the christian god, the muslim god...etc.


How is it the beauty of life? Obviously you haven't lost a family member who died for no just cause.

There is no difference between the Catholic, Muslim, or Jewish God. You know thta right? They worship the same God, they just have minor differences. The main one is Jesus. Catholicism, Judisism, and Islam is based on the entire same thing besides Jesus. Look it up, Allah means God, they worship the SAME God, not a different one.

PixelVibration
05-23-2010, 02:34 AM
There is no difference between the Catholic, Muslim, or Jewish God. You know thta right? They worship the same God, they just have minor differences. The main one is Jesus. Catholicism, Judisism, and Islam is based on the entire same thing besides Jesus. Look it up, Allah means God, they worship the SAME God, not a different one.

Yet they can not describe what their God is. How do you know they worship the same god? Give me some evidence.

Back to the point. My argument still stands. If you are a deist, you have no reason to argue with me because deists do not argue that this god is all knowing, all powerful, and unconditionally loving.

FredM999
05-23-2010, 02:34 AM
because Allah there is paradise for that man after death

ChicagoMan
05-23-2010, 02:36 AM
To add to my comment above, I dont think Catholics, Muslims, or Jews (main religions) know that they actually all worship the same God, and that we have minor differences, truly MINOR, between our religions. I myself dont buy into all the "exaggerated" stories, because in the olden times when people wrote they did it as a parable. Which is a short moral story, a story that may or may not be true but has an underling message.

PixelVibration
05-23-2010, 02:37 AM
because Allah there is paradise for that man after death

and you know this.... how exactly?

ChicagoMan
05-23-2010, 02:39 AM
Yet they can not describe what their God is. How do you know they worship the same god? Give me some evidence.

Back to the point. My argument still stands. If you are a deist, you have no reason to argue with me because deists do not argue that this god is all knowing, all powerful, and unconditionally loving.

No one can accurately describe what God is. God could be the blankess of the universe. God could be anything.

atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/religion/blrel_theism_onegod.htm

PixelVibration
05-23-2010, 02:40 AM
No one can accurately describe what God is. God could be the blankess of the universe. God could be anything.

atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/religion/blrel_theism_onegod.htm

okay but that is coming from a deist point of view.

AKR
05-23-2010, 02:51 AM
because Allah there is paradise for that man after death



So, is it alright if I kill you?

ChicagoMan
05-23-2010, 03:00 AM
okay but that is coming from a deist point of view.

Everything in one way or another is "a point of view." But they all worship the same God. No one has a different interpretation of "God" its a "creator." The differences between Islam, Catholicism, and Judism is truly: Jesus. One believes he is the son of God, the other two believe he is just a prophet like Muhammad and Moses, and is no different then either/or. But each religon believes in ONE sole creator of the universe, and that is God, Allah whatever you call it. It is all the same thing. The only people who believed in a different God is ancient civilizations who believed in god(s), and Native Americans / South Americans to my knowledge who believed in god(s) being: the sun, the earth, wind, etc. But the 3 main religions believe in one God, and it is all the same God. They dont have a face for their God: white, black, brown, tan, yellow, etc, they jsut believe in one sole creator which is the same thing. Theres multiple sources of this, not just the URL i posted.

PixelVibration
05-23-2010, 03:03 AM
Everything in one way or another is "a point of view." But they all worship the same God. No one has a different interpretation of "God" its a "creator." The differences between Islam, Catholicism, and Judism is truly: Jesus. One believes he is the son of God, the other two believe he is just a prophet like Muhammad and Moses, and is no different then either/or. But each religon believes in ONE sole creator of the universe, and that is God, Allah whatever you call it. It is all the same thing. The only people who believed in a different God is ancient civilizations who believed in god(s), and Native Americans / South Americans to my knowledge who believed in god(s) being: the sun, the earth, wind, etc. But the 3 main religions believe in one God, and it is all the same God. They dont have a face for their God: white, black, brown, tan, yellow, etc, they jsut believe in one sole creator which is the same thing. Theres multiple sources of this, not just the URL i posted.

You are not getting my point. How does one go from a deistic god who creates the universe, to a god who answers prayers and watches over the human species?

ColdSpire
05-23-2010, 03:09 AM
" I will give you 30 minutes, if God doesn't save you or change the circumstances, I will let you go"

Well god didn't save him, so why didn't he let him go? lol

Negatron617
05-23-2010, 03:17 AM
if god saved everyone that asked him to save them even if they deserved it the world would have ended due to overpopulation.

PixelVibration
05-23-2010, 03:19 AM
if god saved everyone that asked him to save them even if they deserved it the world would have ended due to overpopulation.

thats convenient.

manphibian
05-23-2010, 05:46 AM
It is the Master who questions the servant, not the servant who questions the Master

PixelVibration
05-23-2010, 06:00 AM
It is the Master who questions the servant, not the servant who questions the Master

There is no evidence of a master

mr_ben
05-23-2010, 06:01 AM
Richard Kuklinski - A contract killer who claims to have killed over 200 people.

In one case, one of his victims started praying to God. Richard said " I will give you 30 minutes, if God doesn't save you or change the circumstances, I will kill you"

After 30 minutes of desperately pleading for his life to god, the victim was mercilessly killed.


You can not use the free will argument. It was Richard's free will to kill the victim but not the victims free will to die. The victim was terrified for his life for 30 minutes begging God to save him. Pretty sure God never saved him because God doesn't exist.

well, u think so? dun be surprised if the same happened to the killer.

ThrusH
05-23-2010, 06:05 AM
Oh shut up you damn bum. If this is how you justify God not "exisiting" then you are an idiot. The whole "why did God let ____ happen" as an argument, to justify God not exisitng is boring. Free will does not matter wether you did not want to die, free will is anyone doing anything at any time, be it right, or wrong. Free will is the ability to choose between right or wrong, to smoke or do not smoke, etc, you can do anything hence: free will.

Lack of your so called god's omnipotency

Footballguru
05-23-2010, 06:34 AM
Lack of your so called god's omnipotency

http://memegenerator.net/Brock-Lesnair/ImageMacro/1159427/Brock-Lesnair-Come-At-Me-BRO.jpg

GoJu
05-23-2010, 06:38 AM
It is the Master who questions the servant, not the servant who questions the Master

if I knew there was a god and it was christianity's he'd have some freaking explaining to do before I ever worshipped him again

GetItBack
05-23-2010, 06:41 AM
You can not use the free will argument.
Ok then, it's freedom of choice. The contract killer chose to kill.

KTownGT
05-23-2010, 06:46 AM
Richard Kuklinski - A contract killer who claims to have killed over 200 people.

In one case, one of his victims started praying to God. Richard said " I will give you 30 minutes, if God doesn't save you or change the circumstances, I will kill you"

After 30 minutes of desperately pleading for his life to god, the victim was mercilessly killed.


You can not use the free will argument. It was Richard's free will to kill the victim but not the victims free will to die. The victim was terrified for his life for 30 minutes begging God to save him. Pretty sure God never saved him because God doesn't exist.

I dunno OP, why don't you kill yourself and go ask God/Allah/The Colonel himself.

Messier_Object
05-23-2010, 07:11 AM
To add to my comment above, I dont think Catholics, Muslims, or Jews (main religions) know that they actually all worship the same God, and that we have minor differences, truly MINOR, between our religions. I myself dont buy into all the "exaggerated" stories, because in the olden times when people wrote they did it as a parable. Which is a short moral story, a story that may or may not be true but has an underling message.

Jesus is not ''minor''.

DAVEZILLA
05-23-2010, 08:23 AM
cuz no one fuks with the iceman...

jimbob007
05-23-2010, 08:30 AM
I expect God was busy that day- you know making a volcano erupt, or starting an earthquake somewhere.

GoJu
05-23-2010, 08:32 AM
nothing fails like prayer

mntbikedude
05-23-2010, 08:55 AM
Let me start by saying that I don't know exactly what I believe these days as far as God is concerned.

But if God does exist it isn't that hard to understand why God doesn't answer every prayer.

Imagine a world where every prayer is answered exactly when and how a person wants. It would mean no pain, no suffering etc but it would also mean no growth, if every prayer I prayed had been answered the moment I prayed or answered the way I wanted, I would have missed out on some amazing exsperiences that happened because I think that someone is out there. It could just be a force.

I think of praying at my sons little league games to please dear God just this one time let the kid get a hit. (Don't think he ever did get a hit). The fact is he sucked at baseball but as it turns out he excelled in cycling.

Two years latter this then 13 year old son and I biked from Canada to Mexico. He commented over and over again how much better this was then his friends being stuck in little league. Ok so this was kind of a stupid example:

A more serious example would be that I had been made straight after endlessly pleading with God to cure my homosexuality. Having lived now 53 years, I'm glad that prayer never got answered, it would have changed so many other things about me than just who I am attracted to.

Cerulean
05-23-2010, 09:06 AM
I expect God was busy that day- you know making a volcano erupt, or starting an earthquake somewhere.

Making volcanos erupt is the gay's job. It's one of our mutant abilities. We also can cause World Trade Centers to colapse.

GoJu
05-23-2010, 09:33 AM
Let me start by saying that I don't know exactly what I believe these days as far as God is concerned.

But if God does exist it isn't that hard to understand why God doesn't answer every prayer.

Imagine a world where every prayer is answered exactly when and how a person wants. It would mean no pain, no suffering etc but it would also mean no growth, if every prayer I prayed had been answered the moment I prayed or answered the way I wanted, I would have missed out on some amazing exsperiences that happened because I think that someone is out there. It could just be a force.

I think of praying at my sons little league games to please dear God just this one time let the kid get a hit. (Don't think he ever did get a hit). The fact is he sucked at baseball but as it turns out he excelled in cycling.

Two years latter this then 13 year old son and I biked from Canada to Mexico. He commented over and over again how much better this was then his friends being stuck in little league. Ok so this was kind of a stupid example:

A more serious example would be that I had been made straight after endlessly pleading with God to cure my homosexuality. Having lived now 53 years, I'm glad that prayer never got answered, it would have changed so many other things about me than just who I am attracted to.

cute, yet pathetic, apologetics, nothing more

HalalMuscle
05-23-2010, 10:18 AM
What if god didn't want to save him?
What if someone came and rescued him?
What if the killer changed his mind?

Does it mean that God exist?

Oh and one more thing.......






































































...............BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORING!!

AKR
05-23-2010, 10:21 AM
Let me start by saying that I don't know exactly what I believe these days as far as God is concerned.

But if God does exist it isn't that hard to understand why God doesn't answer every prayer.

Imagine a world where every prayer is answered exactly when and how a person wants. It would mean no pain, no suffering etc but it would also mean no growth, if every prayer I prayed had been answered the moment I prayed or answered the way I wanted, I would have missed out on some amazing exsperiences that happened because I think that someone is out there. It could just be a force.

I think of praying at my sons little league games to please dear God just this one time let the kid get a hit. (Don't think he ever did get a hit). The fact is he sucked at baseball but as it turns out he excelled in cycling.

Two years latter this then 13 year old son and I biked from Canada to Mexico. He commented over and over again how much better this was then his friends being stuck in little league. Ok so this was kind of a stupid example:

A more serious example would be that I had been made straight after endlessly pleading with God to cure my homosexuality. Having lived now 53 years, I'm glad that prayer never got answered, it would have changed so many other things about me than just who I am attracted to.


No disrespect to what you've been through, but I don't think a bullet to the head is exactly going to be an improvement down the road in someone's life. The simple fact is, regardless of whether or not you're an optimistic guy who tries to find the good in his bad situations, there are people in horrible situations where there is simply no good in it for them. Even then, a real, loving, powerful god would be able to give people knowledge and happiness without dragging them through sh*t to get there. I mean a lot of us look back on our lives and say they wouldn't take away the bad things that have happened to us because of where it got us, but I think most of us would bypass a lot of hardships if we could get there without them, and I'd definitely say someone who is torchered, molested, or killed would absolutely want a life without those things.

HalalMuscle
05-23-2010, 10:24 AM
everyone would be praying for 100m dollars so they could stop work. I wonder who'd sort out our sewers!!

Hagakure24
05-23-2010, 10:32 AM
so let me see if I understand this correctly.

Person A wants something, and Person A's belief in a higher being compels him to request divine intervention. Therefore, divine intervention should be forthcoming because all requests are honored. Person A, instead of intervening in the situation himself, waits for this higher being to tag-in and do something. However, no divine intervention comes forth. This implies there is no god. Or, alternatively, there is a god, but it's just a jerk who should have honored the request and should, therefore, be criticized for the unwillingness to step into the affairs of mortals.

makes. sense. to. me.

IEatPowerRacks
05-23-2010, 10:46 AM
everyone would be praying for 100m dollars so they could stop work. I wonder who'd sort out our sewers!!

We'd pray for God to sort them .

HalalMuscle
05-23-2010, 10:48 AM
We'd pray for God to sort them .

We'd be praying for Paradise while we're at it.

Tamandua
05-23-2010, 12:10 PM
No disrespect to what you've been through, but I don't think a bullet to the head is exactly going to be an improvement down the road in someone's life.

Your problem is that you're trying to understand how a eternal existence works but with we having just one life, it will never make sense. mntbikedude's post holds all the truth there is to it, everything that happens in this life even death is another experience that is able to teach us something.

Consider that this guy who died wakes up in spirit and realizes everything he did wrong in this life and that he will get another chance to live again and get things right. Isn't that chance for improvement down the road in someone's ETERNAL EXISTENCE?

GoJu
05-23-2010, 12:20 PM
Your problem is that you're trying to understand how a eternal existence works but with we having just one life, it will never make sense. mntbikedude's post holds all the truth there is to it, everything that happens in this life even death is another experience that is able to teach us something.

Consider that this guy who died wakes up in spirit and realizes everything he did wrong in this life and that he will get another chance to live again and get things right. Isn't that chance for improvement down the road in someone's ETERNAL EXISTENCE?

what could god have been trying to teach people during the holocaust and the genocide in darfur?

do you have proof (NOT faith) that we have an 'eternal existence'?

fballer12
05-23-2010, 12:20 PM
God created the universe; your god of the gaps argument will not work on me. The universe was created with a purpose of allowing life to "live" its course, good or bad.

so you don't believe in miracles...right?

Tamandua
05-23-2010, 12:37 PM
what could god have been trying to teach people during the holocaust and the genocide in darfur?

do you have proof (NOT faith) that we have an 'eternal existence'?

It's not that god is trying to prove anything with things like that, it's just that the earth is still a place of trials and tests when it is no longer inhabited by ignorant spirits this will change.

This is just a few of the stuff I can show you related to evidence
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=462364771&postcount=33

illriginalized
05-23-2010, 01:06 PM
Richard Kuklinski - A contract killer who claims to have killed over 200 people.

In one case, one of his victims started praying to God. Richard said " I will give you 30 minutes, if God doesn't save you or change the circumstances, I will kill you"

After 30 minutes of desperately pleading for his life to god, the victim was mercilessly killed.


You can not use the free will argument. It was Richard's free will to kill the victim but not the victims free will to die. The victim was terrified for his life for 30 minutes begging God to save him. Pretty sure God never saved him because God doesn't exist.

I'm surprise with the level of stupidity goin on in this thread that you guys aren't askin something like, "why did God kill this man?" -.-

freeheeler
05-23-2010, 01:16 PM
Richard Kuklinski - A contract killer who claims to have killed over 200 people.

In one case, one of his victims started praying to God. Richard said " I will give you 30 minutes, if God doesn't save you or change the circumstances, I will kill you"

After 30 minutes of desperately pleading for his life to god, the victim was mercilessly killed.


You can not use the free will argument. It was Richard's free will to kill the victim but not the victims free will to die. The victim was terrified for his life for 30 minutes begging God to save him. Pretty sure God never saved him because God doesn't exist.

Did you make that up all by yourself or did mummy help you?

ChicagoMan
05-23-2010, 01:40 PM
so you don't believe in miracles...right?

Who am I to say whether miracles have or have not happened?

jimbob007
05-23-2010, 02:32 PM
It is true, I googled him & that is the one murder he has guilt about.

In one interview, Kuklinski claimed that he would never kill a child and "most likely wouldn't kill a woman". However, according to one of his daughters he once told her that he would have to kill her and her two siblings should he happen to beat her mother to death in a fit of rage. [5]. At the same time, his wife Barbara has stated that he never actually did hurt the children. [6]

He also confessed that he once wanted to use a crossbow to carry out a hit but not without "testing" it first. While driving his car, he asked a random man for directions, shot him in the forehead with the crossbow, and stated that the arrow "went half-way into his head".

He also claimed that he once kidnapped one of his victims, and rather than conventionally murder him, bound his hands and feet with tape. He then left the man in a cave in the wilderness where he was eaten alive by rats attracted by the man's cries. Kuklinski claimed he filmed the man’s death as proof to the buyer that the man suffered before death.

In one interview, Kuklinski confessed that he only regretted one murder, which he deemed particularly cruel. As he was about to kill a man, the man began praying to God for his life. Kuklinski told him that he would give God 30 minutes to save him, but once the time was up, he would be killed. Forcing the man to wait 30 minutes for his demise struck Kuklinski as his most sadistic murder.


Did you make that up all by yourself or did mummy help you?

MrAWatts
05-23-2010, 02:33 PM
Probably because god is a phaggot (the character from the bestselling book of course)

ChicagoMan
05-23-2010, 02:51 PM
Probably because god is a phaggot (the character from the bestselling book of course)

Why do you feel the need to insult something in which people believe? Maybe your the "phaggot."

JDkeystone
05-23-2010, 02:55 PM
It's stuff like this that makes me wonder what exactly it would take for a theist to finally concede there just might not be a god after all.

ChicagoMan
05-23-2010, 02:57 PM
It's stuff like this that makes me wonder what exactly it would take for a theist to finally concede there just might not be a god after all.

Its stuff like that? What? That humans can be evil? Where does it say in any religions concepts that God controls the way a man acts? Its called free will. You have the choice of doing whatever you do, then you also have the choice of regretting your acts and changing yourself, or not changing yourself. Its called a brain and concious which is what seperates us from animals. So do you think that when lions kill animals just to kill them that they are evil and that there is no God? God does not control the way anything acts. God created the world to allow it to "live." Be it evil or positive. If you had no free will then life would be controlled and then it would not be "life." It would not be "life" as we know it, it would be completely different and there would be no point. When bacteria eats or kills other forms of bacteria is that evil? Is cancer evil?

MrAWatts
05-23-2010, 03:00 PM
Why do you feel the need to insult something in which people believe? Maybe your the "phaggot."



20 posts and red already? Impressive. Maybe you should get some thicker skin and pull your panties out of your ass. If you think your God is legit, it shouldn't bother you what an infidel has to say, seeing as to how you just know you are going to join the man in the sky someday and get a mansion of your own.

ChicagoMan
05-23-2010, 03:03 PM
20 posts and red already? Impressive. Maybe you should get some thicker skin and pull your panties out of your ass. If you think your God is legit, it shouldn't bother you what an infidel has to say, seeing as to how you just know you are going to join the man in the sky someday and get a mansion of your own.

You talk like an idiot. "Infidel" your not an indifel to me, your just a dumbass. I dont believe in anything you just said, so now what? Dumbass.

GoJu
05-23-2010, 03:03 PM
Its stuff like that? What? That humans can be evil? Where does it say in any religions concepts that God controls the way a man acts? Its called free will. You have the choice of doing whatever you do, then you also have the choice of regretting your acts and changing yourself, or not changing yourself. Its called a brain and concious which is what seperates us from animals. So do you think that when lions kill animals just to kill them that they are evil and that there is no God? God does not control the way anything acts. God created the world to allow it to "live." Be it evil or positive. If you had no free will then life would be controlled and then it would not be "life." It would not be "life" as we know it, it would be completely different and there would be no point. When bacteria eats or kills other forms of bacteria is that evil? Is cancer evil?

god controlled pharoah's mind during the events of the exodus

ChicagoMan
05-23-2010, 03:06 PM
god controlled pharoah's mind during the events of the exodus

It was the plagues that changed that scenario, not a mind altering God. I believe the Bible is a book of parables. Not necessarily every story is true or false, some may be completely fake or altered, but that does not take away from their true meanings.( I have not read the entire Bible, or even most of it.)

MrAWatts
05-23-2010, 03:07 PM
You talk like an idiot. "Infidel" your not an indifel to me, your just a dumbass. I dont believe in anything you just said, so now what? Dumbass.



You make a valid point, I don't believe I can refute your superb rhetoric and solid logic. I am going to have to throw in the white towel. I suppose it helps to have the man in the sky on your side.

swagtime911
05-23-2010, 03:12 PM
I don't pretend to know the mind of God, but I am also not vain enough to believe he plans his day around me either.

ChicagoMan
05-23-2010, 03:13 PM
I don't pretend to know the mind of God, but I am also not vain enough to believe he plans his day around me either.

Good point.

JDkeystone
05-23-2010, 03:13 PM
Its stuff like that? What? That humans can be evil? Where does it say in any religions concepts that God controls the way a man acts? Its called free will. You have the choice of doing whatever you do, then you also have the choice of regretting your acts and changing yourself, or not changing yourself. Its called a brain and concious which is what seperates us from animals. So do you think that when lions kill animals just to kill them that they are evil and that there is no God? God does not control the way anything acts. God created the world to allow it to "live." Be it evil or positive. If you had no free will then life would be controlled and then it would not be "life." It would not be "life" as we know it, it would be completely different and there would be no point. When bacteria eats or kills other forms of bacteria is that evil? Is cancer evil?

And where does it say in the bible - god's word - that god will answer you when you pray to him? Oh yeah, right here (among many other verses, too):

"Mark 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them."

I guess god was taking a nap when this poor guy was praying for him to intervene so his life would be spared. That, or maybe he just doesn't exist.

And with that, I'm done (these debates kinda lose all novelty when you've participated in enough of them).

ChicagoMan
05-23-2010, 03:16 PM
And where does it say in the bible - god's word - that god will answer you when you pray to him? Oh yeah, right here (among many other verses, too):

"Mark 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them."

I guess god was taking a nap when this poor guy was praying for him to intervene so his life would be spared. That, or maybe he just doesn't exist.

And with that, I'm done (these debates kinda lose all novelty when you've participated in enough of them).

The Bible is not Gods word, the bible is the prophets word. Are you stupid?

God does not interfere in anyones life, that is the entire point of life. I know youre done with this debate, you ran out of information on your wikipedia. Your uneducated, and just believe what anyone else tells you without coming to your own conclusion. No religious person has ever said God answers your prayers, or interferes in your life. The point of praying to God is to comfort yourself. You should take a logic class or some sort of interpretation class to learn to interpret things because not everything is "as is." Something have underlining meanings, but people like you take them out of context and try to bash the Bible which as written over 2000 years ago.

Tamandua
05-23-2010, 03:17 PM
And where does it say in the bible - god's word - that god will answer you when you pray to him? Oh yeah, right here (among many other verses, too):

"Mark 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them."

I guess god was taking a nap when this poor guy was praying for him to intervene so his life would be spared. That, or maybe he just doesn't exist.

And with that, I'm done (these debates kinda lose all novelty when you've participated in enough of them).

Just one question, have you searched for god outside of the bible?

GoJu
05-23-2010, 03:17 PM
It was the plagues that changed that scenario, not a mind altering God. I believe the Bible is a book of parables. Not necessarily every story is true or false, some may be completely fake or altered, but that does not take away from their true meanings.( I have not read the entire Bible, or even most of it.)

noooooooo, god caused the plagues and from the very first one pharaoh didn't want anything more to do with the israelites but god controlled his mind and made him say no to moses so he could keep f**king with both of them

JDkeystone
05-23-2010, 03:23 PM
The Bible is not Gods word, the bible is the prophets word. Are you stupid?

God does not interfere in anyones life, that is the entire point of life. I know youre done with this debate, you ran out of information on your wikipedia. Your uneducated, and just believe what anyone else tells you without coming to your own conclusion. No religious person has ever said God answers your prayers, or interferes in your life. The point of praying to God is to comfort yourself. You should take a logic class or some sort of interpretation class to learn to interpret things because not everything is "as is." Something have underlining meanings, but people like you take them out of context and try to bash the Bible which as written over 2000 years ago.

LOL you're clearly red for a reason aren't you? That paragraph was so beyond retarded and incorrect, it's laughable. You'll do well on this forum, alright lol.


Just one question, have you searched for god outside of the bible?

I don't believe in god, so I have no need to. I respect the fact that you converted from atheism to spiritism cuz it's what you believed in, but I don't share your beliefs (no offense).

swagtime911
05-23-2010, 03:37 PM
The Bible is not Gods word, the bible is the prophets word. Are you stupid?

God does not interfere in anyones life, that is the entire point of life. I know youre done with this debate, you ran out of information on your wikipedia. Your uneducated, and just believe what anyone else tells you without coming to your own conclusion. No religious person has ever said God answers your prayers, or interferes in your life. The point of praying to God is to comfort yourself. You should take a logic class or some sort of interpretation class to learn to interpret things because not everything is "as is." Something have underlining meanings, but people like you take them out of context and try to bash the Bible which as written over 2000 years ago.

The bible is a collection of books, inspired by the word of God. The point of praying is to glorify God. When you pray you really have to ask yourself if it's his glory or your own your praying for. As far as what is literal and what is not in the bible is up for debate. The world was much smaller to the people 2000 years ago. The vast majority of the population was uneducated, and morality is as you know based on when and where you live. These things should be considered when your trying to understand what people are saying and describing in the Bible.

GoJu
05-23-2010, 03:41 PM
The bible is a collection of books, inspired by the word of God. The point of praying is to glorify God. When you pray you really have to ask yourself if it's his glory or your own your praying for. As far as what is literal and what is not in the bible is up for debate. The world was much smaller to the people 2000 years ago. The vast majority of the population was uneducated, and morality is as you know based on when and where you live. These things should be considered when your trying to understand what people are saying and describing in the Bible.

the word of god inspiring rape, killing, human sacrifice, and slavery implies god supports all of the above, I couldn't care less if I tried about this person's glory...

PixelVibration
05-23-2010, 03:42 PM
Its stuff like that? What? That humans can be evil? Where does it say in any religions concepts that God controls the way a man acts? Its called free will. You have the choice of doing whatever you do, then you also have the choice of regretting your acts and changing yourself, or not changing yourself. Its called a brain and concious which is what seperates us from animals. So do you think that when lions kill animals just to kill them that they are evil and that there is no God? God does not control the way anything acts. God created the world to allow it to "live." Be it evil or positive. If you had no free will then life would be controlled and then it would not be "life." It would not be "life" as we know it, it would be completely different and there would be no point. When bacteria eats or kills other forms of bacteria is that evil? Is cancer evil?

It was not the mans free will to die you cruel fukk. Do you think the victim could have done anything about it? You don't think the man was tied up?

Forget this man, what about all the other victims of the world?



We are taught that god is everywhere, listens to everyones prayers, and that he unconditionally loves us. Now where is the proof in this when god listens to a man beg for his life for 30 minutes and just lets him be killed?

and illriginalized, you mad my posts hold meaning? Calling my post stupid isn't getting this argument anywhere. This is an argument that as never been defeated, just avoided with arguments like freewill.

This argument has nothing to do with freewill. It was only the killers freewill to kill the victim, not the victims free will to commit suicide. The victim wanted to live and not be murdered. Why couldn't God help him? or the 6million jews that died in the holocaust?

swagtime911
05-23-2010, 03:45 PM
the word of god inspiring rape, killing, human sacrifice, and slavery implies god supports all of the above, I couldn't care less if I tried about this person's glory...

Yeah and you not stalking the streets at night stomping rapists, child molesters, and killers implies you support all of these...LOL.

Dumb@ss.

GoJu
05-23-2010, 03:47 PM
Yeah and you not stalking the streets at night stomping rapists, child molesters, and killers implies you support all of these...LOL.

Dumb@ss.

had a bit of a brainfart there didn't you bub

Tamandua
05-23-2010, 03:49 PM
PixelVibration, don't you consider that god letting the man die would actually not be such a bad thing considering he would be rewarded a good afterlife for having prayed so much?

GoJu
05-23-2010, 03:51 PM
PixelVibration, don't you consider that god letting the man die would actually not be such a bad thing considering he would be rewarded a good afterlife for having prayed so much?

NO

you are creating a cult of death with a such a mindset, you are devaluing life this way

it is NOT a healthy way to think, stop thinking this way right now

swagtime911
05-23-2010, 03:52 PM
had a bit of a brainfart didn't you bub

ME?

Your logic is silly at best. To say what men do is the will of God is baseless. My example to you fit your logic perfectly.

Tamandua
05-23-2010, 03:55 PM
NO

you are creating a cult of death with a such a mindset, you are devaluing life this way

it is NOT a healthy way to think, stop thinking this way right now

calmdownbro

PixelVibration
05-23-2010, 03:56 PM
NO

you are creating a cult of death with a such a mindset, you are devaluing life this way

it is NOT a healthy way to think, stop thinking this way right now

Not really. God could have just taken the man to heaven without pain, suffering, or fear.

I doubt the man is in the heaven, because I doubt there is a loving god or afterlife. That mans last moments on this planet were horrific. Now he is just rotting in the ground for all we know.

A point I should have made first, is that God is not proven to be true, so I am going to assume that because things like this have happened since the dawn of human history, there is no loving god, religion is bullshyt. Religions are deathcults as said before. It gives you a dangerous and deluded mindset. It tells you that faith AKA belief in the absence of evidence is a virtue.

GoJu
05-23-2010, 03:59 PM
ME?

Your logic is silly at best. To say what men do is the will of God is baseless. My example to you fit your logic perfectly.

it fit in your mind maybe

my logic is fine, it is in the bible and COMMANDED in the bible by god to kill people for various transgression (the very same being who says thou shalt not kill), it gives explanations on how you can enslave a person, it says a woman who was raped by man must MARRY her rapist! I do not believe these commands are the will of any god but you saying the bible is inspired by the word of god implies that killing, rape, torture, human sacrifice, and slavery are included in his word you can't dump the ugly parts of your religion because their inconvenient

ChicagoMan
05-23-2010, 07:06 PM
the word of god inspiring rape, killing, human sacrifice, and slavery implies god supports all of the above, I couldn't care less if I tried about this person's glory...

Shutup you pagan idiot.

And yeah one of you was right when I said Islam is like Catholicsm and Judiasm, its not. Because Islam is a political ideology cult.

And Pixel, you said the world is cruel 50 times already, that has nothing to do with God, that has to do with man.

ElevenKilo
05-23-2010, 07:31 PM
stop thinking this way right now

You better stop bro, thought police are here. They'll go Rodney King on your mind.

ChicagoMan
05-23-2010, 07:34 PM
You better stop bro, thought police are here. They'll go Rodney King on your mind.

Go read some garbage about the NWO or some garbage about global warming. You were probably one of the guys who was shocked to hear Saint Al Gore was completely false about global warming and had scientists fabricate studies.

ElevenKilo
05-23-2010, 08:31 PM
Go read some garbage about the NWO or some garbage about global warming. You were probably one of the guys who was shocked to hear Saint Al Gore was completely false about global warming and had scientists fabricate studies.

?

Where's that coming from? I was just making a joke, bro.

AKR
05-23-2010, 10:39 PM
Your problem is that you're trying to understand how a eternal existence works but with we having just one life, it will never make sense. mntbikedude's post holds all the truth there is to it, everything that happens in this life even death is another experience that is able to teach us something.

Consider that this guy who died wakes up in spirit and realizes everything he did wrong in this life and that he will get another chance to live again and get things right. Isn't that chance for improvement down the road in someone's ETERNAL EXISTENCE?



No, I've already considered the idea of eternal life. It doesn't change anything. How exactly does someone learn something from a gun shot to the head? What do they learn from being tortured? That it sucks?


That's quite the assumption to say they realized everything they did wrong from getting a gun shot to the head. That sounds pretty dumb, really. What exactly does it fix, anyway? "Well, I really f*cked up...now what?" Nothing, you're in heaven, where they game isn't even the same.


What kind of a sick god wants to teach people via such horrible means? What kind of a sicko would do that? brb, raping my kid to teach him a lesson.

Tamandua
05-23-2010, 11:14 PM
What kind of a sick god wants to teach people via such horrible means? What kind of a sicko would do that? brb, raping my kid to teach him a lesson.

that being said, will any explanation I give have any importance to you?

r0gue6
05-23-2010, 11:38 PM
Go read some garbage about the NWO or some garbage about global warming. You were probably one of the guys who was shocked to hear Saint Al Gore was completely false about global warming and had scientists fabricate studies.

lol @ denying global warming.

omfg ignorant as hell.

sb327
05-23-2010, 11:45 PM
Go read some garbage about the NWO or some garbage about global warming. You were probably one of the guys who was shocked to hear Saint Al Gore was completely false about global warming and had scientists fabricate studies.

http://img.moronail.net/img/5/6/1156.jpg

Messier_Object
05-24-2010, 12:23 AM
No, I've already considered the idea of eternal life. It doesn't change anything. How exactly does someone learn something from a gun shot to the head? What do they learn from being tortured? That it sucks?


That's quite the assumption to say they realized everything they did wrong from getting a gun shot to the head. That sounds pretty dumb, really. What exactly does it fix, anyway? "Well, I really f*cked up...now what?" Nothing, you're in heaven, where they game isn't even the same.


What kind of a sick god wants to teach people via such horrible means? What kind of a sicko would do that? brb, raping my kid to teach him a lesson.

You act as if certain actions only affect those immediately involved.

PixelVibration
05-24-2010, 12:29 AM
Go read some garbage about the NWO or some garbage about global warming. You were probably one of the guys who was shocked to hear Saint Al Gore was completely false about global warming and had scientists fabricate studies.

global warming is real, the argument is whether or not humans have much effect on it.

Mode7
05-24-2010, 01:23 AM
the man used his free will to pray when he should of used his free will to fight till the death

If God is willing to prevent evil, but not able, then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing, then he is malevolent.
If he is both able, and willing, then why is there evil in the world?
If he is neither able, nor willing, then why call him God?

triplewhammy
05-24-2010, 05:38 AM
The bible is a collection of books, inspired by the word of God. The point of praying is to glorify God. When you pray you really have to ask yourself if it's his glory or your own your praying for.

Completely agree.


As far as what is literal and what is not in the bible is up for debate. The world was much smaller to the people 2000 years ago. The vast majority of the population was uneducated, and morality is as you know based on when and where you live. These things should be considered when your trying to understand what people are saying and describing in the Bible.

Completely disagree.

GoJu
05-24-2010, 05:56 AM
Completely agree.



Completely disagree.

why do you disagree, his second paragraph is correct for the most part

IraHays
05-24-2010, 06:36 AM
God just trolled that dude. Even God trolls every now and then.

zoina21
05-24-2010, 06:39 AM
Oh shut up you damn bum. If this is how you justify God not "exisiting" then you are an idiot.

So you think he needs to proof god doesn't exist? Then you believe everything until proved false. I'm your father.

TheAdlerian
05-24-2010, 06:53 AM
Richard Kuklinski - A contract killer who claims to have killed over 200 people.

In one case, one of his victims started praying to God. Richard said " I will give you 30 minutes, if God doesn't save you or change the circumstances, I will kill you"

After 30 minutes of desperately pleading for his life to god, the victim was mercilessly killed.


You can not use the free will argument. It was Richard's free will to kill the victim but not the victims free will to die. The victim was terrified for his life for 30 minutes begging God to save him. Pretty sure God never saved him because God doesn't exist.

It's not a valid criticism.

We're all reading the story now and forming opinions, thus the man's death has become an instructional story. If the whole thing is real, he's in heaven as a reward for the lesson he helped to provide, and so on.

AKR
05-24-2010, 08:44 AM
You act as if certain actions only affect those immediately involved.


Are you saying that it's ok to sacrifice certain people so that others may benefit?




that being said, will any explanation I give have any importance to you?



I highly doubt it. I don't believe there's any angle I haven't considered that you could come at me from and make me realize it was anything but stupid and f*cked up.

heathershubby
05-24-2010, 09:21 AM
god controlled pharoah's mind during the events of the exodus

God did not control pharoah's mind please show me where it says that in scripture?

He hardened pharoah's heart much different then mind control lol

heathershubby
05-24-2010, 09:30 AM
No, I've already considered the idea of eternal life. It doesn't change anything. How exactly does someone learn something from a gun shot to the head? What do they learn from being tortured? That it sucks?


That's quite the assumption to say they realized everything they did wrong from getting a gun shot to the head. That sounds pretty dumb, really. What exactly does it fix, anyway? "Well, I really f*cked up...now what?" Nothing, you're in heaven, where they game isn't even the same.


What kind of a sick god wants to teach people via such horrible means? What kind of a sicko would do that? brb, raping my kid to teach him a lesson.

I think if you read his response you will see he is talking about reincarnation not someone going to heaven. I am assuming a hindu type theology so your argument about heaven does not fit his argument. He is saying this man will be reincarnated and be able to fix the things he did wrong in this life I think.

The huge problem with the op's post is we have no idea what God this man was praying to. Was he muslim, christian ect ect.... If he was not a Christian the bible is clear that his prayers would not be answered (from a Christian perspective) and I would assum other religions would say the same.

AKR
05-24-2010, 09:38 AM
God did not control pharoah's mind please show me where it says that in scripture?

He hardened pharoah's heart much different then mind control lol



You laugh as if the difference is obvious. Please enlighten us. I'd like to know what hardening one's heart means if it doesn't mean controlling their attitude/behavior.




I think if you read his response you will see he is talking about reincarnation not someone going to heaven. I am assuming a hindu type theology so your argument about heaven does not fit his argument. He is saying this man will be reincarnated and be able to fix the things he did wrong in this life I think.

The huge problem with the op's post is we have no idea what God this man was praying to. Was he muslim, christian ect ect.... If he was not a Christian the bible is clear that his prayers would not be answered (from a Christian perspective) and I would assum other religions would say the same.




Well, I think he's in the wrong thread if he's talking about reincarnation.

heathershubby
05-24-2010, 09:44 AM
You laugh as if the difference is obvious. Please enlighten us. I'd like to know what hardening one's heart means if it doesn't mean controlling their attitude/behavior.








Well, I think he's in the wrong thread if he's talking about reincarnation.

I laugh because you can control someones behaviour,emotions and attitude without controlling there mind. An example an athletic compitition. A good athlete knows that there attitude, emotions and behaviour will directly lead to how they are precived by the opposition and with the right mind play they can often influence the oppositions attitude, emotions and behaviour and illicit specific responses which they can use to their advantage.

God hardened pharoh's heart and then pharoh choose to go back on his word God did not make up pharoh's mind for him ie/ mind control.




As to the reincarnation it was not said what the man believed so he may have believed in reincarnation you can't assume he was a christian just because he started praying to God.


EDIT: maybe a better example is my 5 year old knows if she throws her toys I will give her a time out. She chooses not to throw her toys because she hates timeouts but I am not controling her mind yet indirectly I am controlling her emotions and actions.

AKR
05-24-2010, 10:01 AM
I laugh because you can control someones behaviour,emotions and attitude without controlling there mind. An example an athletic compitition. A good athlete knows that there attitude, emotions and behaviour will directly lead to how they are precived by the opposition and with the right mind play they can often influence the oppositions attitude, emotions and behaviour and illicit specific responses which they can use to their advantage.

God hardened pharoh's heart and then pharoh choose to go back on his word God did not make up pharoh's mind for him ie/ mind control.



Exodus 4: 21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.


There was no choice in the matter. He made him feel/behave in a certain way.




As to the reincarnation it was not said what the man believed so he may have believed in reincarnation you can't assume he was a christian just because he started praying to God.



Very small chance and for the purpose of the argument, I'm pretty sure the OP is assuming the Abrahamic god, so the victim's true religion is irrelevant for the sake of discussion.




EDIT: maybe a better example is my 5 year old knows if she throws her toys I will give her a time out. She chooses not to throw her toys because she hates timeouts but I am not controling her mind yet indirectly I am controlling her emotions and actions.



No, a better example is if you force your child to be angry and rebel and then punish her because you manipulated her to feel/do those things, which is exactly what god did.

heathershubby
05-24-2010, 10:15 AM
There was no choice in the matter. He made him feel/behave in a certain way.





Very small chance and for the purpose of the argument, I'm pretty sure the OP is assuming the Abrahamic god, so the victim's true religion is irrelevant for the sake of discussion.






No, a better example is if you force your child to be angry and rebel and then punish her because you manipulated her to feel/do those things, which is exactly what god did.

there is still choice just cause you say there is not doesn't make it so it no where says he didn't have a choice or was under mind control this is another example of people interpreting scripture for their own meaning good to know not only christians do this.

Actually the mans beliefs play a huge role because if he was not praying to the one true God why would we expect his prayers to be answered by a false God?

You also are leaving out the fact that pharoh said the jews could leave and then when God hardened his heart let them go. This was to show Gods power period it may seem unfair to us and our human reasoning but He is God and even after all the plauges the people he saved turned on Him so you see the need for Him to show His power for the Isrealites and Egyptians to believe. Again pharohs people were punished for his choices be they influenced by God or not. The other problem with you analogy is Pharoh was not Gods child I know you are using my example but when it comes to God a follower and non follower are under different rules.

Tamorlane
05-24-2010, 10:58 AM
Richard Kuklinski - A contract killer who claims to have killed over 200 people.

In one case, one of his victims started praying to God. Richard said " I will give you 30 minutes, if God doesn't save you or change the circumstances, I will kill you"

After 30 minutes of desperately pleading for his life to god, the victim was mercilessly killed.


You can not use the free will argument. It was Richard's free will to kill the victim but not the victims free will to die. The victim was terrified for his life for 30 minutes begging God to save him. Pretty sure God never saved him because God doesn't exist.

You could of used the example of the people who lived and died through the Holocaust because it's the same but on a much larger scale. How, if God exists, did 'He' let that happen, along with all of the other countless atrocities that happen every single minute of every single day on earth?

It is free will. People will do horrific things to each other, themselves, animals, property, environment. But they will also do many amazing things like helping one another, progressing, etc.

We know God won't come down at a specific call. How many people do you think have prayed to have something happen miraculously all of a sudden, to never have it occur? If you lose faith because of that, then you really didn't possess much in the first place.

PixelVibration
05-26-2010, 02:18 AM
You could of used the example of the people who lived and died through the Holocaust because it's the same but on a much larger scale.

It is free will. People will do horrific things to each other, themselves, animals, property, environment. But they will also do many amazing things like helping one another, progressing, etc.

We know God won't come down at a specific call. How many people do you think have prayed to have something happen miraculously all of a sudden, to never have it occur? If you lose faith because of that, then you really didn't possess much in the first place.

This is exactly why religious teachings are dangerous. If you are going to have faith, have a reasonable amount. Don't just have unquestionable faith( In this case it is, because if you don't lose faith after a horrible tragedy, I consider it unquestionable) because your priest told you it was a virtue.


How, if God exists, did 'He' let that happen, along with all of the other countless atrocities that happen every single minute of every single day on earth?

As said before, it wasn't the victims free will to die, only the murderer's free will to kill.


are you saying that god is not all knowing or all powerful? Some faith. I thought you were supposed to believe that god was all knowing and all powerful, especially unconditionally loving. If he existed, he would have been watching out for you.


How did he let that happen you ask? He just let it happen.

The victim was praying for his life for 30 minutes, probably nauseas from his mind preparing for death, panicking. God just watched that and let it happen. He could have intervened and stopped the murderer...IF HE EXISTS that is.


As said many times before, this is the kind of universe you would expect without a god. Everything falls in place. If you hold a gun up to someones head and pull the trigger, you kill him. No intervention, no Saviour, Nada. Just humans and the dangerous ideologies which have people convinced it is good to keep believing in an all loving god even when such horrible things happen.

Tiffany Wantsmore
05-26-2010, 02:53 AM
It's not a valid criticism.

We're all reading the story now and forming opinions, thus the man's death has become an instructional story. If the whole thing is real, he's in heaven as a reward for the lesson he helped to provide, and so on.

And if the whole thing isn't real, the man died for no reason at all, and spent his last half hour alive having his belief system shattered.

kingmartin06
05-26-2010, 03:39 AM
A question for the aithiests...what is it that you do believe in? Do you believe that when you die that's it..your just in the ground no afterlife? Also..is it evolution you believe in..I just can't believe in evolution...I refuse to believe that I evolve from a freakin monkey lol..but I'm not bashing anyone..each to his own..I always hear when people say that they don't believe in God because you can't prove that there is one they say..but you can't prove evolution either...Science always changes...Life had to come from somewhere...so I'm just curious to exactly what is ya'll do believe?

Tiffany Wantsmore
05-26-2010, 03:41 AM
Personally I think when you die that's it, cessation of existence. The same as before you were born, when you also didn't exist. As for evolution, nobody claims we evolved from monkeys. That's a regular misconception shared by people who don't understand properly.

kingmartin06
05-26-2010, 03:50 AM
oh guess I don't understand properly lol..I don't know much about either or..I don't know much about evolution and I don't know much about the Bible..I guess you can say I'm trying to find my beliefs...as for now though...I believe there are two sides to every story...I can understand the people that don't believe in a God then again I also understand the people that do believe.

PixelVibration
05-26-2010, 04:11 AM
A question for the aithiests...what is it that you do believe in? Do you believe that when you die that's it..your just in the ground no afterlife? Also..is it evolution you believe in..I just can't believe in evolution...I refuse to believe that I evolve from a freakin monkey lol..but I'm not bashing anyone..each to his own..I always hear when people say that they don't believe in God because you can't prove that there is one they say..but you can't prove evolution either...Science always changes...Life had to come from somewhere...so I'm just curious to exactly what is ya'll do believe?

I hate to sound like a smarty pants, but to get my point across I guess I have to.


I don't believe in evolution, I accept it as a scientific theory. It is a sound theory, as it is backed with loads of evidence, from different directions, or sources. It is definitely a better, and more plausible theory than creationism.

You said you can not believe in evolution because you refuse to believe that you came from a monkey. There are a couple of things that are wrong with that. Even if it is backed with so much evidence that we can safely assume that it is the reality of life, you will still refuse it?

Also, you nor any human being came from a monkey. Present day monkeys, chimps, gorillas...etc and all hominids share common ancestry.


Even if humans evolved from "monkeys" you did not come from one. You obviously came from your mother and father. "Monkeys" as you call it, would not have become humans just like that. It would have been a gradual process.

As Richard Dawkins put it, " The last ape would have looked like the first human so to speak".


As for the origin of life, evolution is a process, not a start or ending. God could have created life, nature could have done it on its own with the right chemistry, aliens could have made life ( in a laboratory ), it could have been panspermia( for ex: bacteria planted in a meteor crashes into earth, seeding it with the origin of life).

NuggzTheNinja
05-26-2010, 06:22 AM
Richard Kuklinski - A contract killer who claims to have killed over 200 people.

In one case, one of his victims started praying to God. Richard said " I will give you 30 minutes, if God doesn't save you or change the circumstances, I will kill you"

After 30 minutes of desperately pleading for his life to god, the victim was mercilessly killed.


You can not use the free will argument. It was Richard's free will to kill the victim but not the victims free will to die. The victim was terrified for his life for 30 minutes begging God to save him. Pretty sure God never saved him because God doesn't exist.

I thought you were referring to Richard Kuklinski when I moused-over the thread title. RIP Richie, your genius will be remembered...

Drayen
05-26-2010, 06:26 AM
Richard Kuklinski - A contract killer who claims to have killed over 200 people.

In one case, one of his victims started praying to God. Richard said " I will give you 30 minutes, if God doesn't save you or change the circumstances, I will kill you"

After 30 minutes of desperately pleading for his life to god, the victim was mercilessly killed.


You can not use the free will argument. It was Richard's free will to kill the victim but not the victims free will to die. The victim was terrified for his life for 30 minutes begging God to save him. Pretty sure God never saved him because God doesn't exist.

Why was the person pleading for life? Why did he care if he died? If he truly believed in God he wouldn't mind ascending to heaven to bathe in everlasting love, peace, etc.

That my friends is the real question.

PixelVibration
05-26-2010, 06:34 AM
Why was the person pleading for life? Why did he care if he died? If he truly believed in God he wouldn't mind ascending to heaven to bathe in everlasting love, peace, etc.

That my friends is the real question.

this. Anyone who denies this is a liar.

AKR
05-26-2010, 09:14 AM
there is still choice just cause you say there is not doesn't make it so it no where says he didn't have a choice or was under mind control this is another example of people interpreting scripture for their own meaning good to know not only christians do this.

Actually the mans beliefs play a huge role because if he was not praying to the one true God why would we expect his prayers to be answered by a false God?

You also are leaving out the fact that pharoh said the jews could leave and then when God hardened his heart let them go. This was to show Gods power period it may seem unfair to us and our human reasoning but He is God and even after all the plauges the people he saved turned on Him so you see the need for Him to show His power for the Isrealites and Egyptians to believe. Again pharohs people were punished for his choices be they influenced by God or not. The other problem with you analogy is Pharoh was not Gods child I know you are using my example but when it comes to God a follower and non follower are under different rules.




All I'm going to say is that you need to familiarize yourself with a passage in Romans. You really can't get around this:



Romans 9:14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles




We're all just pawns in his game. We have no free will and the Bible makes that crystal clear.

heathershubby
05-26-2010, 10:10 AM
All I'm going to say is that you need to familiarize yourself with a passage in Romans. You really can't get around this:





We're all just pawns in his game. We have no free will and the Bible makes that crystal clear.

NO need to get around it. God being all knowing would know what Pharoh's reaction would be when He hardened his heart doesn't mean Pharoh didn't make the choice. God also knows who will respond to His call in their life and who won't but they are still making the choice. IF we were all just pawns we wouldn't be having this conversation because you and everyone else would believe in God so that theory is out the window.

GoJu
05-26-2010, 11:43 AM
NO need to get around it. God being all knowing would know what Pharoh's reaction would be when He hardened his heart doesn't mean Pharoh didn't make the choice. God also knows who will respond to His call in their life and who won't but they are still making the choice. IF we were all just pawns we wouldn't be having this conversation because you and everyone else would believe in God so that theory is out the window.

no....

the general idea is that your god doesn't exist and we're highlighting the rediculousness of his legend not that we actually believe god is doing or has done those things

poppa_boner
05-26-2010, 12:08 PM
I mean if you just pray to god for 30 minutes you should be fine and live the best life you can in the after life.

I mean it doesnt matter how you die, blowing yourself up and killing others at the same time or crashing a plane, you're doing it for god and he respects that

that guy is clearly in paradise now

/sarcasm

AKR
05-26-2010, 12:39 PM
NO need to get around it. God being all knowing would know what Pharoh's reaction would be when He hardened his heart doesn't mean Pharoh didn't make the choice. God also knows who will respond to His call in their life and who won't but they are still making the choice. IF we were all just pawns we wouldn't be having this conversation because you and everyone else would believe in God so that theory is out the window.



Uh, no, it's not out the window. Did you even read the passage? It's saying he creates people for the exact purpose of being destroyed so he can show his power, so yes, we would be having this discussion because he would be creating me to be destroyed so he could show everyone f*cking awesome he is.

bigkarl
05-26-2010, 12:54 PM
Because he loved him.

heathershubby
05-26-2010, 09:26 PM
no....

the general idea is that your god doesn't exist and we're highlighting the rediculousness of his legend not that we actually believe god is doing or has done those things


Uh, no, it's not out the window. Did you even read the passage? It's saying he creates people for the exact purpose of being destroyed so he can show his power, so yes, we would be having this discussion because he would be creating me to be destroyed so he could show everyone f*cking awesome he is.

Ok for some reason the part that was highlighted is what I thought you were talking about but I will address this to. Chapter 23 says

"23What ifhe did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory***8212; "

Notice the what if this scripture does not say that is what God is doing just that He would be in His rights to do that as creator of all if He chose to. There is a big difference in what if and He did.

AKR
05-26-2010, 11:57 PM
Ok for some reason the part that was highlighted is what I thought you were talking about but I will address this to. Chapter 23 says

"23What ifhe did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory***8212; "

Notice the what if this scripture does not say that is what God is doing just that He would be in His rights to do that as creator of all if He chose to. There is a big difference in what if and He did.


Bro, be honest with yourself. It was a rhetorical question. The whole passage is talking about him molding people and using them to do what he wants. Why would the author be asking if it wasn't his point that he's doing that?


17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

I mean, that passage right there is saying exactly the same as the rhetorical question. God himself admits its.




18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. "


And this is referring to this passage:


14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

...which is saying that it doesn't matter what you do, he's going to own your ass and do what he wants with you. I know it's hard for any christian to accept this, but this entire passage is saying over and over again that you're his b*tch and he does whatever he wants with you.

heathershubby
05-27-2010, 10:03 PM
Bro, be honest with yourself. It was a rhetorical question. The whole passage is talking about him molding people and using them to do what he wants. Why would the author be asking if it wasn't his point that he's doing that?



I mean, that passage right there is saying exactly the same as the rhetorical question. God himself admits its.





And this is referring to this passage:



...which is saying that it doesn't matter what you do, he's going to own your ass and do what he wants with you. I know it's hard for any christian to accept this, but this entire passage is saying over and over again that you're his b*tch and he does whatever he wants with you.

Well honestly I wouldn't have a problem being God's bitch but I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I see the Bible as the living word and much like a living person you can take one thing He does and judge it on its own merit and or look at the whole. In this case if looking at the whole word of God you would see that it is very clear that God gives humans the power of choice. Always good having a back and forth with you though even if we ofter disagree at least it is respectful on both sides and that seems very hard to find out here lately from either side.

Repps on charge

AKR
05-27-2010, 10:13 PM
Well honestly I wouldn't have a problem being God's bitch but I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I see the Bible as the living word and much like a living person you can take one thing He does and judge it on its own merit and or look at the whole. In this case if looking at the whole word of God you would see that it is very clear that God gives humans the power of choice. Always good having a back and forth with you though even if we ofter disagree at least it is respectful on both sides and that seems very hard to find out here lately from either side.

Repps on charge



Translation: I'm going to ignore this part and focus on the other parts that make me feel like I have free will.



:D That's pretty much what you said. You know that's cherry picking. You're ignoring this part that clearly shows you don't have free will, and you're trying to focus on other parts, which if they exist, would simply mean the Bible contradicts itself.


But anyway, repped back, brah. :)

Tamandua
05-27-2010, 10:14 PM
...God's bitch...respectful on both sides...

wtf man?

AKR
05-27-2010, 10:17 PM
wtf man?



What? How was I disrespectful? Just because you think b*tch is a naughty word, that makes me disrespectful? It was an accurate term for what I was describing. I wasn't insulting him at all. He was fine with it, so what's your problem?

Tamandua
05-27-2010, 10:21 PM
What? How was I disrespectful? Just because you think b*tch is a naughty word, that makes me disrespectful? It was an accurate term for what I was describing. I wasn't insulting him at all. He was fine with it, so what's your problem?

No, I actually think that bitch is a childish word, most of the languages I know use whore or other terms with more impact.

Just thought his post was weird in general.

edit: btw, are you vegan, brah?

bmy-
05-27-2010, 10:23 PM
Christian God is one nasty son of a bitch tbh. The idea of an omnipotent God is laughable really.

heathershubby
05-28-2010, 12:12 AM
Translation: I'm going to ignore this part and focus on the other parts that make me feel like I have free will.



:D That's pretty much what you said. You know that's cherry picking. You're ignoring this part that clearly shows you don't have free will, and you're trying to focus on other parts, which if they exist, would simply mean the Bible contradicts itself.


But anyway, repped back, brah. :)

No actually what you are doing is Cherry picking apposed to what I am doing which is looking at the whole of scripture. You are taking one verse and that verse does not even say what you want it to say which is that pharoh had no choice or his mind was controlled by God. That is not what it says that is what you are manipulating it to try and say.

It says God raised him up in order to show his power, then the other part says God hardened pharohs heart no where does it say pharoh didn't have a choice or was under mind control. Looking at that scripture alone it still doesn't say what you are trying to imply it says but when looked at with all of scripture we see that God gave man freedom and the power of choice.

The irony is you always want to point the finger at christians who cherry pick and your right many do but if you want them to look at all of scripture you must too or guess what you are doing the same **** you accuse them of and we both know what that means :).

Part of "studying" scripture as apposed to reading scripture is to take a verse and evaluate it on other verses that relate to it. In this case there are many verses where God shows us that all men have free will. God hardened Pharohs heart, God made it possible or let it happen that Pharoh would be in power but Pharoh kept choosing to go back on his word which God knew he would and this gave God the oppurtunity to display His power.

The whole point of GOd showing His power is to draw those in sin to Himself and to be able to restore them to spiritual life from spiritual death.

You are accusing me of ignoring the part that you think shows we don't have free will even though it doesn't say that it is something that you think is underlying in the scripture but you are ignoring all the other scriptures that say I do have free will. As I tried to say we are going to disagree because you look at this verse and think it implies there is no free will I look at it and take the whole of the bible in context with it and realize that that is not the message at all.

PixelVibration
05-28-2010, 12:31 AM
No actually what you are doing is Cherry picking apposed to what I am doing which is looking at the whole of scripture. You are taking one verse and that verse does not even say what you want it to say which is that pharoh had no choice or his mind was controlled by God. That is not what it says that is what you are manipulating it to try and say.

It says God raised him up in order to show his power, then the other part says God hardened pharohs heart no where does it say pharoh didn't have a choice or was under mind control. Looking at that scripture alone it still doesn't say what you are trying to imply it says but when looked at with all of scripture we see that God gave man freedom and the power of choice.

The irony is you always want to point the finger at christians who cherry pick and your right many do but if you want them to look at all of scripture you must too or guess what you are doing the same **** you accuse them of and we both know what that means :).

Part of "studying" scripture as apposed to reading scripture is to take a verse and evaluate it on other verses that relate to it. In this case there are many verses where God shows us that all men have free will. God hardened Pharohs heart, God made it possible or let it happen that Pharoh would be in power but Pharoh kept choosing to go back on his word which God knew he would and this gave God the oppurtunity to display His power.

The whole point of GOd showing His power is to draw those in sin to Himself and to be able to restore them to spiritual life from spiritual death.

You are accusing me of ignoring the part that you think shows we don't have free will even though it doesn't say that it is something that you think is underlying in the scripture but you are ignoring all the other scriptures that say I do have free will. As I tried to say we are going to disagree because you look at this verse and think it implies there is no free will I look at it and take the whole of the bible in context with it and realize that that is not the message at all.


This does not answer the OP. Why did God let the man die such a horrific death? and the other billions of other people that died helplessly?


Now remember folks, there was no free will in play. It was only the murderer's free will to kill, not the victims free will to die.

Now if this universe did not have a loving god watching over us, I could understand that it is just the way life is. Shyt happens, can't do anything about it.


However, if there is a god that is loving and all powerful, I would assume with logic and reason that he SHOULD have came down and stopped the murderer from killing the victim.

God has never done this in the history of man, from what history tells us. The bible claims god came down as jesus but that is only a claim, not a proven fact. In other words, the bible is most likely a fairytale.

Now do any serious posters have an answer to this?

Tamandua
05-28-2010, 12:48 AM
However, if there is a god that is loving and all powerful, I would assume with logic and reason that he SHOULD have came down and stopped the murderer from killing the victim.

Is it really logical to think that god would need to prevent a few moments of pain when next would come eternity in happiness? or even better is it logical to consider eternity at all?

PixelVibration
05-28-2010, 01:05 AM
Is it really logical to think that god would need to prevent a few moments of pain when next would come eternity in happiness? or even better is it logical to consider eternity at all?

If you want to turn the argument that way, you get an infiinite regression of what is logical.

Is it really logical to think that an all loving god would leave us no evidence for his existence?

Is it really logical to believe, that god would make his existence so mysterious?

Is it really logical to believe, that the amount of time you endure pain, determines how bad that pain is? Do you even know what it feels like to beg for your life at the moment knowing that some sociopath is about to murder you?


Now you didn't answer my question in that post. What about the billions of other people? What about the people who live their whole lives under oppression?


You are also assuming that there is a heaven to begin with.

I guess you people don't understand where I am getting at.

My position is not " I believe in god, so why did god do this"

My position is " If this god that you believe in exists, why would he let such horrible things happen?"

AKR
05-28-2010, 01:17 AM
No, I actually think that bitch is a childish word, most of the languages I know use whore or other terms with more impact.

Just thought his post was weird in general.

edit: btw, are you vegan, brah?


Actually, I think it's pretty immature to get so upset over certain words because society has told you that you're supposed to be offended. And yes, I'm vegan.





No actually what you are doing is Cherry picking apposed to what I am doing which is looking at the whole of scripture. You are taking one verse and that verse does not even say what you want it to say which is that pharoh had no choice or his mind was controlled by God. That is not what it says that is what you are manipulating it to try and say.

It says God raised him up in order to show his power, then the other part says God hardened pharohs heart no where does it say pharoh didn't have a choice or was under mind control. Looking at that scripture alone it still doesn't say what you are trying to imply it says but when looked at with all of scripture we see that God gave man freedom and the power of choice.


I'm not really implying it. It seems pretty clear.




The irony is you always want to point the finger at christians who cherry pick and your right many do but if you want them to look at all of scripture you must too or guess what you are doing the same **** you accuse them of and we both know what that means :).



I'm not cherry picking at all. I have no problem admitting that god says to love one another and treat each other with respect and things like that which are contrary to a lot of the verses I focus on. The thing is you have no problem admitting that as well. We all accept that those verses are in there. What you WON'T do, however, is admit that the Bible also says so many things to the contrary, therefore, there is no point in bringing up the other verses. I admit that they are in there, so the way I see it, the Bible is full of contradictions, saying both good and bad things. All I'm really trying to do is get you to admit the same thing, so really, I have absolutely no need to cherry pick. You do.




Part of "studying" scripture as apposed to reading scripture is to take a verse and evaluate it on other verses that relate to it. In this case there are many verses where God shows us that all men have free will. God hardened Pharohs heart, God made it possible or let it happen that Pharoh would be in power but Pharoh kept choosing to go back on his word which God knew he would and this gave God the oppurtunity to display His power.

The whole point of GOd showing His power is to draw those in sin to Himself and to be able to restore them to spiritual life from spiritual death.

Yes, that's the whole point, but what you're ignoring is that he destroys others he creates for that purpose.




You are accusing me of ignoring the part that you think shows we don't have free will even though it doesn't say that it is something that you think is underlying in the scripture but you are ignoring all the other scriptures that say I do have free will. As I tried to say we are going to disagree because you look at this verse and think it implies there is no free will I look at it and take the whole of the bible in context with it and realize that that is not the message at all.


No, we disagree because you want to ignore this passage and focus on the others. It really doesn't matter to me if the rest of the Bible says you have free will. It doesn't take anything away from this passage. The way you are looking at it is completely unscientific. You're reasoning makes it impossible to falsify anything in the Bible. It's like you claiming a particular person is always right. You say "this man is incredibly wise, and is never wrong." And let's say that man, over a period of time, repeatedly says that the earth is round. Then, a couple of times, he says the earth is flat. You, seeing this man as perfect, would say, "well, clearly we just don't understand him. If you look back at what he said so many other times, it shows he thinks the earth is flat." But in reality, the man is getting old and senile and is contradicting himself, saying dumb things. You don't allow for the possibility that he's not perfect and you refuse to acknowledge a clear contradiction and false statement.


And that's exactly what you're doing with the Bible. I really don't know where it's actually spoken of free will in the Bible, and maybe in another thread, you can show me, but really, it wouldn't erase a contradiction.


OP, I'm sorry, we've really gotten side tracked. I'll shut up in this thread now.

AKR
05-28-2010, 01:19 AM
Is it really logical to think that god would need to prevent a few moments of pain when next would come eternity in happiness? or even better is it logical to consider eternity at all?


What about people who are tortured?

Tamandua
05-28-2010, 01:27 AM
If you want to turn the argument that way, you get an infiinite regression of what is logical.

Is it really logical to think that an all loving god would leave us no evidence for his existence?

Bro, idk about you, but the stuff I have studied last few months is pretty much the evidence I was looking for, I used to be one of those atheist full of hate towards god.


Is it really logical to believe, that god would make his existence so mysterious?

I think this is present in buddhism and some other religious stuff(correct me if I'm wrong) as time passes and the person reaches enlightment god and all those mysteries aren't so mysterious anymore, my religion has it's explanation to this too.


Is it really logical to believe, that the amount of time you endure pain, determines how bad that pain is? Do you even know what it feels like to beg for your life at the moment knowing that some sociopath is about to murder you?

nah, I don't.


Now you didn't answer my question in that post. What about the billions of other people? What about the people who live their whole lives under oppression?

So you're taking this takes it from "some moments compared to eternity" to "a life compared to eternity", and btw I believe in reincarnation.


You are also assuming that there is a heaven to begin with.

Not the kind of biblical heaven, it would be more like nirvana.


I guess you people don't understand where I am getting at.

My position is not " I believe in god, so why did god do this"

My position is " If this god that you believe in exists, why would he let such horrible things happen?"

Because that's what this life is for, and that's how things work. We need to go through material existences. Why did god create us in the first place to go through this? I really don't and couldn't know.

Tamandua
05-28-2010, 01:32 AM
Actually, I think it's pretty immature to get so upset over certain words because society has told you that you're supposed to be offended. And yes, I'm vegan.

Yeah, me too, dat dere psycholinguistics. I actually like this stuff have a lot of books around the house which I plan to read.


What about people who are tortured?

Again, going from 30min to a century maybe? and comparing it to eternity. I really don't see where one could get discussing this.

AKR
05-28-2010, 01:39 AM
Yeah, me too, dat dere psycholinguistics. I actually like this stuff have a lot of books around the house which I plan to read.



Again, going from 30min to a century maybe? and comparing it to eternity. I really don't see where one could get discussing this.


Yeah, I'm sure if you were being tortured, it would be totally irrelevant to you since you thought you were going to go to heaven. That's a lie. You're basically making it sound like we shouldn't have compassion for anyone and just ignore everyone's pain because they can have fun for eternity.

PixelVibration
05-28-2010, 01:41 AM
Bro, idk about you, but the stuff I have studied last few months is pretty much the evidence I was looking for, I used to be one of those atheist full of hate towards god.



I think this is present in buddhism and some other religious stuff(correct me if I'm wrong) as time passes and the person reaches enlightment god and all those mysteries aren't so mysterious anymore, my religion has it's explanation to this too.



nah, I don't.



So you're taking this takes it from "some moments compared to eternity" to "a life compared to eternity", and btw I believe in reincarnation.



Not the kind of biblical heaven, it would be more like nirvana.



Because that's what this life is for, and that's how things work. We need to go through material existences. Why did god create us in the first place to go through this? I really don't and couldn't know.

Share some evidence for your god.

Tamandua
05-28-2010, 01:48 AM
Yeah, I'm sure if you were being tortured, it would be totally irrelevant to you since you thought you were going to go to heaven. That's a lie. You're basically making it sound like we shouldn't have compassion for anyone and just ignore everyone's pain because they can have fun for eternity.

Sorry if I did, but isn't this a teaching of Christ himself? Blessed are the afflicted. Anyways, if you want to discuss the existence of an afterlife that would be another thread, don't you think?

edit: to make it more clear, I didn't mean that the people who are being tortured are irrelevant, I just wanted to say that arguing on eternity seems irrelevant to me.

kingmartin06
05-28-2010, 01:53 AM
I know this is off subject but I was just thinking....the bible=genius...that's crazy how a single book has made people minds boggle for this long.

Tamandua
05-28-2010, 01:57 AM
Share some evidence for your god.

Looking for anything specific? Also what I can show you is evidence I can't prove it to you. This is a pretty interesting video, an agnostic atheist talking about the existence of the afterlife. But even though he only scratches the surface, using the same approach he did we already know about much of the stuff he couldn't give answers.

XAt0zeiiAc8

Or if you want to go hardcore into the evidence you could read "The Spirits' Book" and "Qu'est-ce que le Spiritsme?" dunno if there is an english version of this book.

Ashen
05-28-2010, 03:01 AM
It doesn't disprove God but it proves that praying is useless.

PigFelcher
05-28-2010, 04:10 AM
Richard Kuklinski - A contract killer who claims to have killed over 200 people.

In one case, one of his victims started praying to God. Richard said " I will give you 30 minutes, if God doesn't save you or change the circumstances, I will kill you"

After 30 minutes of desperately pleading for his life to god, the victim was mercilessly killed.


You can not use the free will argument. It was Richard's free will to kill the victim but not the victims free will to die. The victim was terrified for his life for 30 minutes begging God to save him. Pretty sure God never saved him because God doesn't exist.

I want solid proof of this, because all reports point to the fact that Richard Kuklinski was full of sh!t.

AKR
05-28-2010, 04:31 AM
I want solid proof of this, because all reports point to the fact that Richard Kuklinski was full of sh!t.


Who really cares? You don't think that anyone who has ever prayed to god to be saved hasn't been killed? Whether or not this particular incident happened is completely irrelevant to the principle of the discussion.

PigFelcher
05-28-2010, 04:41 AM
Who really cares? You don't think that anyone who has ever prayed to god to be saved hasn't been killed? Whether or not this particular incident happened is completely irrelevant to the principle of the discussion.

I understand you hate Christians and God and you've made it your lifes work to make this fact known on an internet message board, but if you mention Richard Kuklinski specifically and the situation described never took place involving The Iceman, then the question is redundant and factually irrelevant.

PixelVibration
05-28-2010, 06:10 AM
I understand you hate Christians and God and you've made it your lifes work to make this fact known on an internet message board, but if you mention Richard Kuklinski specifically and the situation described never took place involving The Iceman, then the question is redundant and factually irrelevant.

I am sorry, but that statement seems irrelevant to AKR's post. He did not say anything about hating christians or dedicating his life to it. You should have just left that statement out as it does not even make sense. If anything, I would say that AKR is a rationalist, and calls stupid ideas stupid, and good ideas good.

The idea that there is an all loving god, especially one who is all powerful, powerful enough to create the universe, and still lets these horrible things happen is a stupid idea. Another stupid idea is that such a deity would make the universe the way it is. Just look at the Earth, and we already have enough natural problems.

Maestro
05-28-2010, 06:35 AM
How exactly would people be robots if god saved people from certain situations or didn't allow people to do certain things? Can you hurt people by just thinking about hurting them? No, there's a limitation. Can you shoot them with lasers out of your eyes? No, another limitation. Does that make you a robot? No. God could simply keep people from being able to hurt each other while being free to do other things. Why should a-holes even have free will anyway? OH noes, a poor child molester or serial killer might not get to do everything he wants! Poor him! See how stupid that sounds?

Should we not have law enforcement because they take away people's freedom to murder each other and do other things? If some chick was getting raped, would you stand back and be like, "well gee, I'm awfully sorry miss, but I don't want to take away your rapists free will to force you to have sex with him."


this.

I always like to refer to the 7 year old that was kidnapped in Mexico and held for ransom. they thought the kids parents had money. It turns out they were dirt poor so instead of returning the kid to the parents (or hell even leaving him on the side of the road).....

They forced him to drink ****ing battery acid and threw him in a river. A 7 year old.

mysterious ways?
has a plan for us?

riiiiiight.

not to mention this whole idea of "prayer" involves god interfering so there's no use in doing that either because "herp derp" we'd be robotz.

AKR
05-28-2010, 07:57 AM
I understand you hate Christians and God and you've made it your lifes work to make this fact known on an internet message board, but if you mention Richard Kuklinski specifically and the situation described never took place involving The Iceman, then the question is redundant and factually irrelevant.



Wut.