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CaptainBert
05-21-2010, 09:42 AM
If god is all knowing, all powerful why do some babies die after taking their first breath. Why is there crime, disease, death, poverty in a world created by a "perfect" being?

Messier_Object
05-21-2010, 09:53 AM
If god is all knowing, all powerful why do some babies die after taking their first breath. Why is there crime, disease, death, poverty in a world created by a "perfect" being?

Insightful post. I don't think this has ever been asked here, and definitely not multiple times.

alegend90
05-21-2010, 09:57 AM
If god is all knowing, all powerful why do some babies die after taking their first breath. Why is there crime, disease, death, poverty in a world created by a "perfect" being?

bc god has a plan for us all brah. just like he tests our faith with dinosaur bones.





















not srs

Mortum
05-21-2010, 09:59 AM
Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God's side, for God is always right.
Abraham Lincoln

Barry Bonds
05-21-2010, 10:02 AM
If god is all knowing, all powerful why do some babies die after taking their first breath. Why is there crime, disease, death, poverty in a world created by a "perfect" being?

Pick one of those you just asked and I'll answer.

El Gilbro
05-21-2010, 10:21 AM
Insightful post. I don't think this has ever been asked here, and definitely not multiple times.
I agree. Surely, all believers will renounce their faith upon discovering such a profound post.

ONtop888
05-21-2010, 04:10 PM
If god is all knowing, all powerful why do some babies die after taking their first breath. Why is there crime, disease, death, poverty in a world created by a "perfect" being?

Brilliant...lol.

jimbob007
05-21-2010, 04:15 PM
The babies must be sinners who did not pray enough in the womb, or maybe their parents did not attend church enough.

gnahc92
05-21-2010, 04:39 PM
Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God's side, for God is always right.
Abraham Lincoln

How do you know God is always right? He almost made a man fully willing to kill his own son in order to show loyalty.

BetterBehaved
05-21-2010, 04:42 PM
Because God works in mysterious ways.




lolwut?

CaptainBert
05-21-2010, 05:02 PM
Insightful post. I don't think this has ever been asked here, and definitely not multiple times.

yeah I'm sorry I don't read these forums 24/7.

----

I swear can Christians give a straight answer and stop with all the god has a plan for us all bs. If god's plan is for someone to live a life of pain and anguish, then count me out.

illriginalized
05-21-2010, 05:03 PM
For argument sake I would say, God didn't literally create each and every single one of us. After sparking the beginning of the Universe and everything in it, and commanding the creation of life via abiogenesis (best term used to explain how God created Adam for example), and after sending all the Prophets/teachers (pbut), that God simply let life take its course. And it is up to man to continue the teachings of the Prophets, the Word of God. God isn't to blame when someone dies, regardless of their age...

CaptainBert
05-21-2010, 05:04 PM
For argument sake I would say, God didn't literally create each and every single one of us. After sparking the beginning of the Universe and everything in it, and commanding the creation of life via abiogenesis (best term used to explain how God created Adam for example), and after sending all the Prophets/teachers (pbut), that God simply let life take its course. And it is up to man to continue the teachings of the Prophets, the Word of God. God isn't to blame when someone dies, regardless of their age...

Good post. However, someone must have created these diseases that go around, since things like the AIDs virus are also living things.

illriginalized
05-21-2010, 05:17 PM
Good post. However, someone must have created these diseases that go around, since things like the AIDs virus are also living things.

Call me a conspiracy nut but...

Between America testing illegal drugs on U.S. soldiers such as meth during Vietnam war, so that the soldiers would be enhanced in their fightin capabilities. The U.S. using illegal drugs to disrupt certain civil organizations, such as the Black Panther movement. Also all the chemicals that exist for warfare... I would have to say diseases such as HIV was simply invented by chemists.... HIV is synthetic.

Please take the time to research: 1971 Flow Chart of the Special Virus Program of the United States

CaptainBert
05-21-2010, 05:20 PM
any more takers?

CaptainBert
05-21-2010, 05:21 PM
Call me a conspiracy nut but...

Between America testing illegal drugs on U.S. soldiers such as meth during Vietnam war, so that the soldiers would be enhanced in their fightin capabilities. The U.S. using illegal drugs to disrupt certain civil organizations, such as the Black Panther movement. Also all the chemicals that exist for warfare... I would have to say diseases such as HIV was simply invented by chemists.... HIV is synthetic.

Please take the time to research: 1971 Flow Chart of the Special Virus Program of the United States

Even if it was artificially made, its SCIENCE thats being used to create life.

illriginalized
05-21-2010, 05:23 PM
Even if it was artificially made, its SCIENCE thats being used to create life.

Chemisty specifically, has been used repeatedly to destroy lives. If you disagree, that's fine.

CaptainBert
05-21-2010, 05:24 PM
Chemisty specifically, has been used repeatedly to destroy lives. If you disagree, that's fine.

Conspiracy theories will be Conspiracy theories, I'm just trying to disprove this theory of a God.

illriginalized
05-21-2010, 05:29 PM
Conspiracy theories will be Conspiracy theories, I'm just trying to disprove this theory of a God.

KK good luck, though I must mention, just so long as religions such as Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism exist, it's gonna be very difficult. Especially since all these religions have taught the same philosophies in general. In fact compare all the prophets of the 5 religions I've mentioned... everything they've said. And you'll see very detailed similarities. But have fun, nonetheless :D

Messier_Object
05-21-2010, 05:32 PM
any more takers?

Study the 7 C's of Christianity and you'll have your answer.

CaptainBert
05-21-2010, 05:33 PM
KK good luck, though I must mention, just so long as religions such as Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism exist, it's gonna be very difficult. Especially since all these religions have taught the same philosophies in general. In fact compare all the prophets of the 5 religions I've mentioned... everything they've said. And you'll see very detailed similarities. But have fun, nonetheless :D

You're telling me that the theory of reincarnation is the same concept as going to heaven?

illriginalized
05-21-2010, 05:44 PM
You're telling me that the theory of reincarnation is the same concept as going to heaven?

lol no... more like Peace, respect, honor, love, honesty, health, etc..

CaptainBert
05-21-2010, 06:01 PM
lol no... more like Peace, respect, honor, love, honesty, health, etc..

well yes, but isnt that the way everyone should live regardless of beliefs? I mean there are rappers who talk about killing shooting, bit ches, drugs, money, and then god.

Z06
05-21-2010, 06:47 PM
Call me a conspiracy nut but...

Between America testing illegal drugs on U.S. soldiers such as meth during Vietnam war, so that the soldiers would be enhanced in their fightin capabilities. The U.S. using illegal drugs to disrupt certain civil organizations, such as the Black Panther movement. Also all the chemicals that exist for warfare... I would have to say diseases such as HIV was simply invented by chemists.... HIV is synthetic.

Please take the time to research: 1971 Flow Chart of the Special Virus Program of the United States

Conspiracy nut :rolleyes:

"HIV-1 is closely related to a virus found in chimpanzees, and molecular phylogenetics indicates that the HIV-1 virus appeared sometime between 1884 and 1924 in equatorial Africa.[2] HIV-2 is less transmittable and is largely confined to West Africa, along with its closest relative, a virus of the Sooty Mangabey (Cercocebus atys), an Old World monkey of Guinea-Bissau, Gabon, and Cameroon.[1]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_AIDS

gtfo

jackal337
05-21-2010, 07:02 PM
For argument sake I would say, God didn't literally create each and every single one of us. After sparking the beginning of the Universe and everything in it, and commanding the creation of life via abiogenesis (best term used to explain how God created Adam for example), and after sending all the Prophets/teachers (pbut), that God simply let life take its course. And it is up to man to continue the teachings of the Prophets, the Word of God. God isn't to blame when someone dies, regardless of their age...

So God lets life take the course that HE started it on. You can't get away from the fact that God is in control of everything so everything is his responsibility. He knew at the creation of the universe all that would happen as a result of his creation.

It would be like building a bomb and leaving it somewhere, and then after it explodes and kills people, you plead innocent because you only set up the conditions that would kill people but you weren't there at the time.

jackal337
05-21-2010, 07:11 PM
Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God's side, for God is always right.
Abraham Lincoln

The followers of God resemble slaves who cannot think for themselves. Even their morality can only come from their Master. It's no wonder Lincoln didn't give a damn about the slaves of the south when he himself was a groveling peon before his Overlord in Heaven.

Jreyes2265
05-21-2010, 07:18 PM
So God lets life take the course that HE started it on. You can't get away from the fact that God is in control of everything so everything is his responsibility. He knew at the creation of the universe all that would happen as a result of his creation.

It would be like building a bomb and leaving it somewhere, and then after it explodes and kills people, you plead innocent because you only set up the conditions that would kill people but you weren't there at the time.



Make sense, after all the guy from all the Saw movies was innocent too right? lol

Jreyes2265
05-21-2010, 07:33 PM
Also, this pretty much disputes most beliefs about God in a single quote, check it out:


"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then He is NOT Omnipotent.

Is He able, but not willing?

Then He is Malevolent.

Is He both able and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

Is He neither able nor willing?


Then why call Him God?"

-Epicurus

liftthat
05-21-2010, 07:55 PM
If god is all knowing, all powerful why do some babies die after taking their first breath. Why is there crime, disease, death, poverty in a world created by a "perfect" being?

because everyone makes THEIR own decision....he gave us our own will.

Infinit350
05-21-2010, 09:12 PM
I don't get how people can just believe that if there was a god that it would take him 6 days to create earth (in Christianity), seriously, if it took him that long to create tiny earth then he would barely have finished the Milky Way Galaxy by now. Of course I could use a better argument, but this is a weird thought that came to mind.

jackal337
05-21-2010, 09:39 PM
because everyone makes THEIR own decision....he gave us our own will.

What a predicable and moronic response.

If a child dies right after being born, it made the choice to die? If someone gets a fatal disease, it was their decision? Get real.

Sir-Squat-alot
05-21-2010, 09:52 PM
I believe the answer is that God didnt create sick babys etc(he created everything perfectly)... but its a result of humans being sinful in nature... Obviously the baby hasnt done anything to deserve it but thats just a result of being born into a "sinful" world created by "humans" just the way i see it.

yes Christian. and yes i do struggle alot thinking about all the injustice in the world with an all loving God but who am i to know all the answers??.

Infinit350
05-21-2010, 09:55 PM
I believe the answer is that God didnt create sick babys etc(he created everything perfectly)... but its a result of humans being sinful in nature... Obviously the baby hasnt done anything to deserve it but thats just a result of being born into a "sinful" world created by "humans" just the way i see it. yes Christian.

But god knows everything, he knows every thing man has done and will do, so he obviously knew sin would originate and instead of fixing the problem (which shouldn't have been a problem, he is ****ing God), he kills a newborn baby?

Infusco
05-21-2010, 10:02 PM
I believe the answer is that God didnt create sick babys etc(he created everything perfectly)... but its a result of humans being sinful in nature... Obviously the baby hasnt done anything to deserve it but thats just a result of being born into a "sinful" world created by "humans" just the way i see it.

yes Christian. and yes i do struggle alot thinking about all the injustice in the world with an all loving God but who am i to know all the answers??.

Interesting God you have there.

Do you think a legal system would be reasonable if it condemned and imprisoned the babies of criminals from the moment they were born?

jackal337
05-21-2010, 10:04 PM
I believe the answer is that God didnt create sick babys etc(he created everything perfectly)... but its a result of humans being sinful in nature... Obviously the baby hasnt done anything to deserve it but thats just a result of being born into a "sinful" world created by "humans" just the way i see it.

yes Christian. and yes i do struggle alot thinking about all the injustice in the world with an all loving God but who am i to know all the answers??.

So disease and death are caused by sin? Fascinating. How does one cure these mystical ailments? Blood-letting perhaps?

Maybe people who are sick are really possessed by the devil. I say when someone gets sick we should pour holy water on them and speak ancient incantations over them. That would be far superior to modern medicine which was derived from the heretical practice known as "science".

PixelVibration
05-21-2010, 11:00 PM
because everyone makes THEIR own decision....he gave us our own will.

So why make a species that is greedy/sinful in nature?

PixelVibration
05-22-2010, 12:19 AM
survival of the fittest

/thread

That is something you would expect to find in a universe without the kind of gods found in scripture.

southeastoz
05-22-2010, 01:50 AM
Funny how this question was laughed at - it's the most basic question of which they can't come up with an answer. I put it a little differently in my thread and had to bump 20 times before I got some half hearted response, I know the guys who laughed at you are reading this again, if so please reply to my thread. I'm sure you've read it before though.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?p=483462731#post483462731

TheCurator
05-22-2010, 03:43 AM
Call me a conspiracy nut but...

Between America testing illegal drugs on U.S. soldiers such as meth during Vietnam war, so that the soldiers would be enhanced in their fightin capabilities. The U.S. using illegal drugs to disrupt certain civil organizations, such as the Black Panther movement. Also all the chemicals that exist for warfare... I would have to say diseases such as HIV was simply invented by chemists.... HIV is synthetic.

Please take the time to research: 1971 Flow Chart of the Special Virus Program of the United States

Rofl, no. HIV evolved from SIV, a lentivirus present in apes.

GoJu
05-22-2010, 07:36 AM
So why make a species that is greedy/sinful in nature?

this, since he created us as we are its all ultimately his fault

TimDF
05-22-2010, 07:44 AM
Simple answer: There is no God

DukeOfManlets
05-22-2010, 07:48 AM
Insightful post. I don't think this has ever been asked here, and definitely not multiple times.

seriously. . .
all answers to these questions are in the ****ing bible anyway. . folks really need to start learning some **** before they try to belittle other people.

GoJu
05-22-2010, 07:54 AM
seriously. . .
all answers to these questions are in the ****ing bible anyway. . folks really need to start learning some **** before they try to belittle other people.

you assume people debunking all these christian claims aren't former christians themselves who've read the bible, the supposed 'answers' that are in there aren't good enough

TimDF
05-22-2010, 07:56 AM
you assume people debunking all these christian claims aren't former christians themselves who've read the bible, the supposed 'answers' that are in there aren't good enough

This.

PixelVibration
05-22-2010, 09:09 AM
seriously. . .
all answers to these questions are in the ****ing bible anyway. . folks really need to start learning some **** before they try to belittle other people.

Ironic, last time I checked, it was muslims and christians who belittle those who did not believe in their religion.


" You need to be saved "

" You are going to hell "

" You believe in the wrong religion "

" You are a lost soul, you need jesus in your life "



Last time I checked, it was atheists who looked at human beings with respect, not assuming that we would all go ape shyt if we didn't believe in a god. We also respect human beings enough so that we call you stupid for believing in stupid fairy tales. There is a difference between being condescending and being truthful.

Did you think " Use some logic" was an insult? Its advice, you should take it.

illriginalized
05-22-2010, 09:18 AM
Ironic, last time I checked, it was muslims and christians who belittle those who did not believe in their religion.


No.

PixelVibration
05-22-2010, 09:32 AM
No.

Muslims do belittle non believers....

illriginalized
05-22-2010, 09:37 AM
Muslims do belittle non believers....

Sure... there's Muslims that do, but I don't think it would be over faith or lack of. Also we don't go around telling you that if you don't convert to Islam you're going to hell lol.... I don't cuz I personally don't care about the decisions people make unless it effects me personally.

PixelVibration
05-22-2010, 09:46 AM
Sure... there's Muslims that do, but I don't think it would be over faith or lack of. Also we don't go around telling you that if you don't convert to Islam you're going to hell lol.... I don't cuz I personally don't care about the decisions people make unless it effects me personally.

yeah right whatever you say talk to the hand I can't hear you I am not listening you stole my mirror

Infinit350
05-22-2010, 09:53 AM
Sure... there's Muslims that do, but I don't think it would be over faith or lack of. Also we don't go around telling you that if you don't convert to Islam you're going to hell lol.... I don't cuz I personally don't care about the decisions people make unless it effects me personally.

Well I am assuming your a Muslim, and in your sig it reads this, 'The unbelievers are literate but illiterate, observe how they cannot fathom what they read.' Now I can only assume this is referring to Nonbelievers, sounds belittling does it not?

illriginalized
05-22-2010, 10:02 AM
Well I am assuming your a Muslim, and in your sig it reads this, 'The unbelievers are literate but illiterate, observe how they cannot fathom what they read.' Now I can only assume this is referring to Nonbelievers, sounds belittling does it not?

Nope. Just poiting out the obvious. :D

ONtop888
05-22-2010, 10:26 AM
you assume people debunking all these christian claims aren't former christians themselves who've read the bible, the supposed 'answers' that are in there aren't good enough

I've addressed this multiple times on here, hopefully this will be the last time. The OMNI traits that have been used to describe God are Greek philosophical tools that were applied to the Judeo-Christian God when Christianity was inculturated in the Roman empire. They made sense to a lot of intellectuals in that time period because that is what they were familiar with. The whole concept of OMNI everything is a giant contradiction, and it is not even justified in the Bible. So, whenever you're attacking the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent God then you're really attacking the ancient Greek model of God,that is all.


Ironic, last time I checked, it was muslims and christians who belittle those who did not believe in their religion.
Really? That's interesting because last time I checked no one that I know in my parish or religion classes do such a thing.



" You are a lost soul, you need jesus in your life "
"You are a delusional person, you do not need God in your life"

^^There are idiots on both sides of the argument that make insulting comments, and it would be foolish to stereotype ALL atheists, Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc. based on a few anecdotal examples that you have encountered.



Last time I checked, it was atheists who looked at human beings with respect, not assuming that we would all go ape shyt if we didn't believe in a god. We also respect human beings enough so that we call you stupid for believing in stupid fairy tales. There is a difference between being condescending and being truthful.
Lol, I wish I would have read this before I responded to you.....delusions of grandeur.

liftthat
05-22-2010, 12:37 PM
put it like this...if there was no religion the world would be fuked.
some people dnt do bad things because they wanna get into heaven...the law doesn't scare most people.
No Religion=Mayhem

whether you like it or not religion stops people from killing, robbing, ect.

Some People Need Religion.

mentalmorph
05-22-2010, 12:51 PM
If god is all knowing, all powerful why do some babies die after taking their first breath. Why is there crime, disease, death, poverty in a world created by a "perfect" being?

It's just because He is a Big Weirdo.

GoJu
05-22-2010, 12:57 PM
I've addressed this multiple times on here, hopefully this will be the last time. The OMNI traits that have been used to describe God are Greek philosophical tools that were applied to the Judeo-Christian God when Christianity was inculturated in the Roman empire. They made sense to a lot of intellectuals in that time period because that is what they were familiar with. The whole concept of OMNI everything is a giant contradiction, and it is not even justified in the Bible. So, whenever you're attacking the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent God then you're really attacking the ancient Greek model of God,that is all.


Really? That's interesting because last time I checked no one that I know in my parish or religion classes do such a thing.



"You are a delusional person, you do not need God in your life"

^^There are idiots on both sides of the argument that make insulting comments, and it would be foolish to stereotype ALL atheists, Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc. based on a few anecdotal examples that you have encountered.



Lol, I wish I would have read this before I responded to you.....delusions of grandeur.

it is in the bible and the koran that all works of nonbelievers are vile

I agree the traits used to describe god are derived from greek philosophical tools (as are those so called christian virtues you guys keep harping about)

what is your definition of god then, if it differs from the mainstream omni-x ideas?

if your definition is going strictly by what the bible says than god is nothing more than a rehashing of zeus, a powerful yet malevolent man who will kill innocent people to make his point, and one is not allowed to question this man because you're not as powerful as he is

AREMNANT
05-22-2010, 04:25 PM
So God lets life take the course that HE started it on. You can't get away from the fact that God is in control of everything so everything is his responsibility. He knew at the creation of the universe all that would happen as a result of his creation.

It would be like building a bomb and leaving it somewhere, and then after it explodes and kills people, you plead innocent because you only set up the conditions that would kill people but you weren't there at the time.

God takes responsibility for His creation, that is why He provided "The Lamb (Christ) slain from the foundation of the world WHO is taking away the sin of the world (Rev.13:8;Joh1:29)!

GoJu
05-22-2010, 04:28 PM
God takes responsibility for His creation, that is why He provided "The Lamb (Christ) slain from the foundation of the world WHO is taking away the sin of the world (Rev.13:8;Joh1:29)!

god took responsibility for his failure by killing an innocent man in one the most painful ways to die imaginable, good job dave man

E90LCI
05-22-2010, 04:32 PM
the AIDs virus are also living things.

A virus isnt a living thing...

AREMNANT
05-22-2010, 04:34 PM
The followers of God resemble slaves who cannot think for themselves. Even their morality can only come from their Master. It's no wonder Lincoln didn't give a damn about the slaves of the south when he himself was a groveling peon before his Overlord in Heaven.

We are all slaves to whom we obey. "Every one who is committing sin, is a slave of sin and the wages of the sin is death! (Joh8:34:Rom6:23)!

GoJu
05-22-2010, 04:40 PM
We are all slaves to whom we obey. "Every one who is committing sin, is a slave of sin and the wages of the sin is death! (Joh8:34:Rom6:23)!

man being a 'slave' of sin is god's fault, since he made us this way

AREMNANT
05-22-2010, 04:43 PM
god took responsibility for his failure by killing an innocent man in one the most painful ways to die imaginable, good job dave man

"The Father loves the Son and shows to Him all things which He does and even as the Father raises the dead, and GIVES LIFE, so also the Son GIVES LIFE to whomever He wills.

"When this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and this mortal shall put on immortality, then will take place the Word that has been written, "Death was swallowed up in victory." Isa. 25:8

GoJu
05-22-2010, 04:49 PM
"The Father loves the Son and shows to Him all things which He does and even as the Father raises the dead, and GIVES LIFE, so also the Son GIVES LIFE to whomever He wills.

"When this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and this mortal shall put on immortality, then will take place the Word that has been written, "Death was swallowed up in victory." Isa. 25:8

bible verses don't impress me

why is it a good thing that jesus takes our sins away from us?

where is that christian sense of responisiblity in that?

also the very 'need' for jesus' supposid mission is nullified if god could've made us not sinful, since he chose not too, all of our sinful nature is ultimately his fault (and failure)

zoina21
05-22-2010, 04:53 PM
bible verses don't impress me

why is it a good thing that jesus takes our sins away from us?

where is that christian sense of responisiblity in that?

also the very 'need' for jesus' supposid mission is nullified if god could've made us not sinful, since he chose not too, all of our sinful nature is ultimately his fault (and failure)

yes the vicarious redemption is not moral, no one can take the responsability foryour bad actions, not even by dying, doesn't even make sense. Also I don't know how a moral person would accept that reponsability cleansing.

PixelVibration
05-22-2010, 04:54 PM
"You are a delusional person, you do not need God in your life"

^^There are idiots on both sides of the argument that make insulting comments, and it would be foolish to stereotype ALL atheists, Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc. based on a few anecdotal examples that you have encountered.
.

That is different though. The atheist is being honest and to the point.

The theist has no evidence for believing in what he/she believes.

Greens
05-22-2010, 06:01 PM
The babies must be sinners who did not pray enough in the womb, or maybe their parents did not attend church enough.

hmmm, doubt that was the case for my child...

AREMNANT
05-22-2010, 07:11 PM
bible verses don't impress me


It has been written: "Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every Word of God." Deut. 8:3

why is it a good thing that jesus takes our sins away from us?

So, that you may have LIFE!

"Come unto ME, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I WILL GIVE YOU REST! Take My yoke [this means to live your life with all its trials and tribulations, by living it CHRIST'S WAY] upon you, and LEARN OF ME [read your Bible and DO WHAT CHRIST SAYS TO DO and DON'T DO WHAT HE SAYS NOT TO DO]; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and YOU SHALL FIND REST UNTO YOUR SOULS. For My yoke is easy [it will enable you to overcome the world, because Jesus overcame with world with His humble and meek attitude] and my burden light" (Matt. 11:28-30).

Notice what fruit the Spirit of God will produce in your life:

"But the fruit of the Spirit is LOVE, JOY, PEACE, PATIENCE, GENTLENESS, GOODNESS, FAITH, MEEKNESS, SELF CONTROL: against such there is no law" (Gal. 5:22-23).

We all want these qualities in our lives, but they only come by crucifying our old carnal, selfish selves. The key is to: REPENT and OBEY.



where is that christian sense of responisiblity in that?

God is RESPONSIBLE! `With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'



also the very 'need' for jesus' supposid mission is nullified if god could've made us not sinful, since he chose not too, all of our sinful nature is ultimately his fault (and failure)

Sin, Evil, Satan, etc. serve a good purpose! What is that purpose?

MuScleHeAd88
05-22-2010, 07:17 PM
If god is all knowing, all powerful why do some babies die after taking their first breath. Why is there crime, disease, death, poverty in a world created by a "perfect" being?

Sin is the cause of evil in this world

AREMNANT
05-22-2010, 07:18 PM
yes the vicarious redemption is not moral, no one can take the responsability foryour bad actions, not even by dying, doesn't even make sense. Also I don't know how a moral person would accept that reponsability cleansing.

Simple, "LOVE"!

God commends His own love to us, that, in our being still sinners, Christ did die for us;
much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath; for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life.


I say to you, Love your enemies, bless those cursing you, do good to those hating you, and pray for those accusing you falsely, and persecuting you, that ye may be sons of your Father in the heavens, because His sun He doth cause to rise on evil and good, and He doth send rain on righteous and unrighteous.

For, if ye may love those loving you, what reward have ye? do not also the tax-gatherers the same?
and

If ye may salute your brethren only, what do ye abundant? do not also the tax-gatherers so?

You shall therefore be perfect, as your Father who is in the heavens is perfect.

AREMNANT
05-22-2010, 07:20 PM
Sin is the cause of evil in this world

What is the the "PURPOSE" of sin, evil, etc.?

jackal337
05-22-2010, 07:44 PM
We are all slaves to whom we obey. "Every one who is committing sin, is a slave of sin and the wages of the sin is death! (Joh8:34:Rom6:23)!

What kind of a response is that? "Sin" cannot literally tell someone how to live or rule over them like a dictator. God on the other hand does just that.

God sends out his orders (through a highly unreliable chain of command) and if you don't follow them he will send you to his concentration camp known as Hell.

smokeater
05-22-2010, 07:48 PM
If god is all knowing, all powerful why do some babies die after taking their first breath. Why is there crime, disease, death, poverty in a world created by a "perfect" being?

I don't have a response for why babies die. I've thought about this and lost more sleep over this than most people, athiest or theist. I've been the unfortunate paramedic who has had to tell a young mother than their baby is dead (because if SIDS). I've had to make the decision to stop CPR because the emergency room in a bag that I bring to each call wasn't enough. After many years of seeing some of the worst things imaginable I have come to the conclusion that there is not an answer for this question, regardless of your faith or belief in God.

As far as the others, human beings created most of them, not God. Crime and poverty are man-made. When man has to answer for why these exist, only then should God have to. God isn't the one knocking off liquor stores and pulling drive by's.

Disease and death. Again, how much of this can be put onto the shoulders of man? As we've depleted our natural resources, destroyed out environments, and failed to utilize safer products and machines our cancer and sickness rates have gone up. Coinsidence? Should we blame God for BP's irresponsible behavior and the month long oil leak?

Asking God why these things happen is a fair thing to do. But I'd be questioning those directly responsible for why they happen first.

Why can't doctors figure out what causes SIDS and how to prevent it?
Why can't scientists figure out ways to eliminate disease?
Why do people have to do harm to other people?
Why do we have people in such poverty while we have hundreds of billionaires?

jackal337
05-22-2010, 07:49 PM
God takes responsibility for His creation, that is why He provided "The Lamb (Christ) slain from the foundation of the world WHO is taking away the sin of the world (Rev.13:8;Joh1:29)!

Ah yes, Jesus, the ultimate scapegoat. Tell me, how does killing an innocent person relieve the guilt of another? If I steal from you, can I then put my sins onto a member of your family, kill them, and then I will be free of the guilt of stealing from you? Does that make any sense?

jackal337
05-22-2010, 08:01 PM
I've addressed this multiple times on here, hopefully this will be the last time. The OMNI traits that have been used to describe God are Greek philosophical tools that were applied to the Judeo-Christian God when Christianity was inculturated in the Roman empire. They made sense to a lot of intellectuals in that time period because that is what they were familiar with. The whole concept of OMNI everything is a giant contradiction, and it is not even justified in the Bible. So, whenever you're attacking the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent God then you're really attacking the ancient Greek model of God,that is all.

If God does not posses these ONMI traits, then how powerful, knowledgeable, and benevolent is he?

I don't think these OMNI traits are even coherent ideas, but so many seem to ascribe them to the god of the Bible.

AREMNANT
05-22-2010, 08:36 PM
What kind of a response is that? "Sin" cannot literally tell someone how to live or rule over them like a dictator. God on the other hand does just that.

God sends out his orders (through a highly unreliable chain of command) and if you don't follow them he will send you to his concentration camp known as Hell.

Hell is a mistranslation, So when you state the term "HELL" - What do you mean?

One translation of "HELL" IS Hades is the Greek translation in the New Testament OR Sheol in the Old Testament Hebrew, it is the state of the DEAD/when people die they are dead not in a fable "concentration camp known as HELL"

Here is an example:

Acts 2:27--"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Gk: hades], neither wilt thou suffer Your Holy One to see corruption"

This is a quotation of Psalm 16:10:

"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Heb: sheol]; neither wilt thou suffer Your Holy One to see corruption."


Strong's Hebrew Dictionary: #7585, "sheol, hades or the world of the dead."

We see that sheol is the state of the dead--not hell, not even the grave, but the state of the dead. And as sheol IS hades, hades cannot take on any greater or opposing meaning that is not contained in an older parent language word "sheol."

No matter how fanciful one's ideas may be regarding the use of the word hades in the New Testament, it does not take on the meaning of consciousness, judging, torture, chastisement, annihilation, or eternity. It is the UNSEEN, IMPERCEPTIBLE, UNCONSCIOUS STATE OF THE DEAD called sheol throughout the Old Testament Scriptures.

The Scriptures teach us that:

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing..." (Ecc. 9:5).

As this is true in "sheol," it is likewise true in "hades."

"While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish" (Psa 146:2-4).

Just where did David understand a person would be when he "returned to his earth" when his thoughts perished and he no longer lived to praise the Lord? Answer: "For IN DEATH there is no remembrance of Thee: in the GRAVE [Heb: 'sheol'] who shall give thee thanks?" (Psa 6:5). Well of course, the orthodox Christian theologians teaching makes a lie out of this Scripture, as they teach that for in death there IS remembrance of God, and that the dead patriarchs of old were alive praising God in a certain compartment of sheol for many centuries before Jesus visited them (while He was supposed to be dead, for the sins of the world) and took them back to heaven with Him.

AREMNANT
05-22-2010, 08:49 PM
Ah yes, Jesus, the ultimate scapegoat. Tell me, how does killing an innocent person relieve the guilt of another?

"According to the law, I may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission. It was necessary therefore that the copies of the things in the heavens should be cleansed with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ entered not into a holy place made with hands, like in pattern to the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear before the face of God for us -

For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit"


If I steal from you, can I then put my sins onto a member of your family, kill them, and then I will be free of the guilt of stealing from you? Does that make any sense?

No, because "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"!

jackal337
05-22-2010, 08:49 PM
Hell is a mistranslation, So when you state the term "HELL" - What do you mean?

One translation of "HELL" IS Hades is the Greek translation in the New Testament OR Sheol in the Old Testament Hebrew, it is the state of the DEAD/when people die they are dead not in a fable "concentration camp known as HELL"

Here is an example:

Acts 2:27--"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Gk: hades], neither wilt thou suffer Your Holy One to see corruption"

This is a quotation of Psalm 16:10:

"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Heb: sheol]; neither wilt thou suffer Your Holy One to see corruption."


Strong's Hebrew Dictionary: #7585, "sheol, hades or the world of the dead."

We see that sheol is the state of the dead--not hell, not even the grave, but the state of the dead. And as sheol IS hades, hades cannot take on any greater or opposing meaning that is not contained in an older parent language word "sheol."

No matter how fanciful one's ideas may be regarding the use of the word hades in the New Testament, it does not take on the meaning of consciousness, judging, torture, chastisement, annihilation, or eternity. It is the UNSEEN, IMPERCEPTIBLE, UNCONSCIOUS STATE OF THE DEAD called sheol throughout the Old Testament Scriptures.

The Scriptures teach us that:

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing..." (Ecc. 9:5).

As this is true in "sheol," it is likewise true in "hades."

"While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish" (Psa 146:2-4).

Just where did David understand a person would be when he "returned to his earth" when his thoughts perished and he no longer lived to praise the Lord? Answer: "For IN DEATH there is no remembrance of Thee: in the GRAVE [Heb: 'sheol'] who shall give thee thanks?" (Psa 6:5). Well of course, the orthodox Christian theologians teaching makes a lie out of this Scripture, as they teach that for in death there IS remembrance of God, and that the dead patriarchs of old were alive praising God in a certain compartment of sheol for many centuries before Jesus visited them (while He was supposed to be dead, for the sins of the world) and took them back to heaven with Him.

Fine, so there is no Hell as I spoke of it. God still punishes sin does he not? The Bible tells of countless innocent people who he has put to death does it not? He is still a dictator of laws and a dealer of death and destruction for those who disobey. Just as the Pharaoh enslaved God's "chosen people", so does God seek to enslave all of mankind under his brutal celestial regime. He is the ultimate enemy of freedom.

GoJu
05-22-2010, 08:59 PM
It has been written: "Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every Word of God." Deut. 8:3


So, that you may have LIFE!

"Come unto ME, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I WILL GIVE YOU REST! Take My yoke [this means to live your life with all its trials and tribulations, by living it CHRIST'S WAY] upon you, and LEARN OF ME [read your Bible and DO WHAT CHRIST SAYS TO DO and DON'T DO WHAT HE SAYS NOT TO DO]; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and YOU SHALL FIND REST UNTO YOUR SOULS. For My yoke is easy [it will enable you to overcome the world, because Jesus overcame with world with His humble and meek attitude] and my burden light" (Matt. 11:28-30).

Notice what fruit the Spirit of God will produce in your life:

"But the fruit of the Spirit is LOVE, JOY, PEACE, PATIENCE, GENTLENESS, GOODNESS, FAITH, MEEKNESS, SELF CONTROL: against such there is no law" (Gal. 5:22-23).

We all want these qualities in our lives, but they only come by crucifying our old carnal, selfish selves. The key is to: REPENT and OBEY.




God is RESPONSIBLE! `With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'




Sin, Evil, Satan, etc. serve a good purpose! What is that purpose?

not one word in the bible is the word of god, again your bible quotes are found wanting

I am quite alive right now

osiris and mithras were both born of virgins on december 25th, and both died and were resurrected on the third day for the sins of the world LONG before jesus did it, which one should I listen too?

YOU are responsible for yourself

if all things are possible with god then is it possible for god to make a stone that is impossible for him to lift?

if we are carnal and selfish GOD MADE US THIS WAY IT IS HIS FAULT

I see so one of the greatest acts of evil in the 20th century the holocaust had a good purpose in god's eyes? I see it all now, thank you for your stunning revelation

Tamandua
05-22-2010, 09:40 PM
what is your definition of god then, if it differs from the mainstream omni-x ideas?

I also want to see the answer to this

Infinit350
05-22-2010, 10:14 PM
"According to the law, I may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission. It was necessary therefore that the copies of the things in the heavens should be cleansed with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ entered not into a holy place made with hands, like in pattern to the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear before the face of God for us -

For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit"



No, because "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"!

All things are cleansed with blood? How does one justify that?

And, what did Jesus really sacrifice, pain is short, endurable, and it has a limit. Jesus is chillin up in heaven right now so what did he sacrifice again?

mangiventofly
05-23-2010, 10:36 AM
questions like this tell me that the poster thinks that THEIR standard of right and wrong MUST be the right one. as a man converted later in his life, i understand the difficulty in accepting that i don't get to decide what truth is. but in the end, that's what the answer to your question is. you don't get to decide what is right/wrong, fair/unfair, or true/untrue. if you think that you do, you are making YOURSELF God, for only God can decide those things.

GoJu
05-23-2010, 10:38 AM
questions like this tell me that the poster thinks that THEIR standard of right and wrong MUST be the right one. as a man converted later in his life, i understand the difficulty in accepting that i don't get to decide what truth is. but in the end, that's what the answer to your question is. you don't get to decide what is right/wrong, fair/unfair, or true/untrue. if you think that you do, you are making YOURSELF God, for only God can decide those things.

your answer is a pathetic apologetic nothing more

i'm more moral than the god of the bible

mangiventofly
05-23-2010, 10:41 AM
i'm more moral than the god of the bible, alot of people are

by your own standards, yes you probably are. but the same applies here. why should you get to decide what is moral/immoral? do you really want that responsibility? can you live up to your own standard from the day you were born to the day you die? no. people are fallible.

GoJu
05-23-2010, 10:46 AM
by your own standards, yes you probably are. but the same applies here. why should you get to decide what is moral/immoral? do you really want that responsibility? can you live up to your own standard from the day you were born to the day you die? no. people are fallible.

morality is subjective

the best morals survive over time and the bad ones die and are forgotten and are unused

this is how best to decide what is moral/immoral not some dogma from a diety who is just as fallible as any man, at least going by what the bible says about him

mangiventofly
05-23-2010, 12:35 PM
morality is subjective

the best morals survive over time and the bad ones die and are forgotten and are unused

this is how best to decide what is moral/immoral not some dogma from a diety who is just as fallible as any man, at least going by what the bible says about him

so you decide on a case by case basis? it may be ok to murder one person, but not another? it may be ok to lie in one instance but not another? i don't think so. without objective morality, we end up where we are now. you can't expect anything different.

GoJu
05-23-2010, 12:43 PM
so you decide on a case by case basis? it may be ok to murder one person, but not another? it may be ok to lie in one instance but not another? i don't think so. without objective morality, we end up where we are now. you can't expect anything different.

societies who's morality values killing people all tend to die out eventually, the ones who value life tend to go on living, you see a patern developing here at all?

I wouldn't mind if fidel castro, hugo chavez, mahmoud ahdmadenijad (can't spell his name for ****), and kim yong-il, and the government leaders in the congo and darfur regions of africa were all to be murdered tomorrow

there is no objective morality I"m afraid, and the god who you think gives it to us resinds it many times in his book

joeash
05-23-2010, 12:52 PM
Arrrgh, theists quoting verses from the bible in order to prove a point is my pet hate, it doesn't prove anything to the sceptic who wants ACTUAL evidence.

If I created a whole theology around the origins of santa and his elves, and wrote a book about it, would quoting verses from my book actually prove anything to you? Nope. It's the same thing.


And when talking about morality, it is not a good idea for christians to take the moral high ground and claim that we draw our morality from the bible/god.

The bible actually promotes rape, murder, execution of homosexual people, slavery (just a few of the best ones). And it doesn't just claim that these things are accepted, it says that you SHOULD do them.
I can provide the verses mentioned upon request for anyone that would like to see them.

Mini rant over :)

mangiventofly
05-23-2010, 12:54 PM
Arrrgh, theists quoting verses from the bible in order to prove a point is my pet hate, it doesn't prove anything to the sceptic who wants ACTUAL evidence.

If I created a whole theology around the origins of santa and his elves, and wrote a book about it, would quoting verses from my book actually prove anything to you? Nope. It's the same thing.


And when talking about morality, it is not a good idea for christians to take the moral high ground and claim that we draw our morality from the bible/god.

The bible actually promotes rape, murder, execution of homosexual people, slavery (just a few of the best ones). And it doesn't just claim that these things are accepted, it says that you SHOULD do them.
I can provide the verses mentioned upon request for anyone that would like to see them.

Mini rant over :)


would love to see them.....

GoJu
05-23-2010, 01:03 PM
would love to see them.....

rape in the bible

http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm

slavery in the bible

http://www.evilbible.com/Slavery.htm

murder in the bible

http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

human sacrifice in the bible

http://www.evilbible.com/Ritual_Human_Sacrifice.htm

joeash
05-23-2010, 01:07 PM
would love to see them.....


Sure, these are all teachings from the bible, the word of god :p ....


Here's some promoting murder -

* A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27)

* Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15)

* Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12)

* If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10)

* A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9)

* They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.)

There's many more about killing kids, mass murder etc.


Here some nice rapey ones -

*As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

*Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2)


Apparently rape victims should be made to marry their attacker -

* If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)


god on homosexuality -

*"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13)


Slavery -

*However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46)


There's countless more, I obviously didn't type these out, I had to look them up, but I've read all of these things before, and they are there, look for yourself :) It's on a par with the Koran when it comes to violent teaching.

GoJu
05-23-2010, 01:28 PM
on top of that lets tally god's kill count!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IABptlAhyJw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWHzB6H718w&feature=related

zoina21
05-23-2010, 04:21 PM
Simple, "LOVE"!

God commends His own love to us, that, in our being still sinners, Christ did die for us;
much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath; for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life.


I say to you, Love your enemies, bless those cursing you, do good to those hating you, and pray for those accusing you falsely, and persecuting you, that ye may be sons of your Father in the heavens, because His sun He doth cause to rise on evil and good, and He doth send rain on righteous and unrighteous.

For, if ye may love those loving you, what reward have ye? do not also the tax-gatherers the same?
and

If ye may salute your brethren only, what do ye abundant? do not also the tax-gatherers so?

You shall therefore be perfect, as your Father who is in the heavens is perfect.

And you would accept anyone lese take your responsability away?

SYRIANKID
05-23-2010, 04:24 PM
I have compiled the Islamic perspective on your question here:

Why does God allow suffering?

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=312889711&postcount=9211

GoJu
05-23-2010, 04:33 PM
I have compiled the Islamic perspective on your question here:

Why does God allow suffering?

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=312889711&postcount=9211

another apologetic (and its the same as the christian/jewish one), not impressed

ONtop888
05-23-2010, 06:05 PM
If God does not posses these ONMI traits, then how powerful, knowledgeable, and benevolent is he?

I don't think these OMNI traits are even coherent ideas, but so many seem to ascribe them to the god of the Bible.

God is utterly incomprehensable, and we can only know about Him from what He has revealed to us; both revelatory and experiential. We know that God is powerful enough to create a universe ex nihilo, but does that mean He is omnipotent? I don't know because I don't know what unlimited power would entail or how it would function. There is no empirical gauge to figure out the parameters of God's characteristics, we can only discern with what our limited perceptions are capable of given the information that we have.

illriginalized
05-23-2010, 06:07 PM
another apologetic (and its the same as the christian/jewish one), not impressed

Then please, for the love of all that is great on this earth, STOP ASKING QUESTIONS if you don't accept the answers, dammit.

/rage

GoJu
05-23-2010, 06:13 PM
Then please, for the love of all that is great on this earth, STOP ASKING QUESTIONS if you don't accept the answers, dammit.

/rage

give better answers, problem solved

ontop888 - chirstianity says god knows you before you knew yourself this would imply a being for which there is no concepts such as past and future, what we perseive as different instances in time would be different instances of the present for him/she/it this there implies omnipresence and omnipetence you just said the same the greeks but gave it a different name

ONtop888
05-23-2010, 06:17 PM
give better answers, problem solved

ontop888 - chirstianity says god knows you before you knew yourself this would imply a being for which there is no concepts such as past and future, what we perseive as different instances in time would be different instances of the present for him/she/it this there implies omnipresence and omnipetence you just said the same the greeks but gave it a different name

Yes, that's Jeremiah 1:4, I believe. However, God's knowledge is still in question. Personally, I believe that it is middle knowledge, that he knows probabilities, not exacts, and he can make conclusive determinations from that knowledge. Such a concept preserves free will, and argues against omniscience, so you are incorrect in your postulations that try to present my position as being analogous to that of the Greeks.

GoJu
05-23-2010, 06:28 PM
Yes, that's Jeremiah 1:4, I believe. However, God's knowledge is still in question. Personally, I believe that it is middle knowledge, that he knows probabilities, not exacts, and he can make conclusive determinations from that knowledge. Such a concept preserves free will, and argues against omniscience, so you are incorrect in your postulations that try to present my position as being analogous to that of the Greeks.

interesting, what does god do with these determinations?

to preserve free will would imply no action at all regardless of probability or outcome, most the old testament and the introduction of jesus in the new testament is a contradiction that

the concept of god not knowing something in its entirty implies that even he must bow to logical constraints, which diminishes his status as a god in my eyes

if there is a god it would be the omnipotent gods of deism or pantheism nothing makes sense with what we see in the world AND keeps free will intact besides these two veiw points IMO

ONtop888
05-23-2010, 06:35 PM
interesting, what does god do with these determinations?
Reveals Himself to humans during critical times in their lives through multifarious manifestations which could be as discrete as the inner voice telling you not to continue on a certain self-destructive path, or more obvious like the enfleshed God, Jesus Christ, living on this earth as a special revelation.


to preserve free will would imply no action at all regardless of probability or outcome, most the old testament and the introduction of jesus in the new testament is a contradiction that

the concept of god not knowing something in its entirty implies that even he must bow to logical constraints, which diminishes his status as a god in my eyes
I have researched the Bible rather in depth, and there is more support for my perspective than the omniscience. God gives perspectives in probabilities...."if you do x then y will happen." The choice is still yours, but given the knowledge that we have, I suppose we could say that our free will is limited, not non-existent.


if there is a god it would be the omnipotent gods of deism or pantheism nothing makes sense with what we see in the world AND keeps free will intact besides these two veiw points IMO

Omnipotent anything does not make sense, that is, if you are subjecting this particular concept of God to strict logical principles. For example, can an omnipotent deistic God create a rock so heavy that he can't lift it? An so on with the logical paradoxes.

Furthermore, if you believe in a deistic God that abandoned his creation, then what does that say about your perspective of God? The Abrahamic God has been mercilessly slandered and depicted as a sadistic, murdering God, but He is very much involved and concerned with His creation. What of a deistic God? Does he not care about His creation? Did he prepare an afterlife with you? How do you know anything about Him if he has never revelaed himself to you, is it strictly from what us Catholics call "natural revelation?"

GoJu
05-23-2010, 06:56 PM
Reveals Himself to humans during critical times in their lives through multifarious manifestations which could be as discrete as the inner voice telling you not to continue on a certain self-destructive path, or more obvious like the enfleshed God, Jesus Christ, living on this earth as a special revelation.


I have researched the Bible rather in depth, and there is more support for my perspective than the omniscience. God gives perspectives in probabilities...."if you do x then y will happen." The choice is still yours, but given the knowledge that we have, I suppose we could say that our free will is limited, not non-existent.



Omnipotent anything does not make sense, that is, if you are subjecting this particular concept of God to strict logical principles. For example, can an omnipotent deistic God create a rock so heavy that he can't lift it? An so on with the logical paradoxes.

Furthermore, if you believe in a deistic God that abandoned his creation, then what does that say about your perspective of God? The Abrahamic God has been mercilessly slandered and depicted as a sadistic, murdering God, but He is very much involved and concerned with His creation. What of a deistic God? Does he not care about His creation? Did he prepare an afterlife with you? How do you know anything about Him if he has never revelaed himself to you, is it strictly from what us Catholics call "natural revelation?"

you assume we are all god cares about and the only thing worthy of attention in this vast universe, but the reality is we are so very very small to give you perspective on just how small watch this vid

Z8BncJ7XMLk

the abrahamic god has been 'slandered' as a murderer because he is one (at least in some instances in the myths written about him); in those myths he has committed or has ordered murder and genocide, he supports rape and tells people how best to go about it, he supports slavery and also tells people how best to go about it, he also supports human sacrifice it is all in there you can't get rid of the ugly parts of your faith simply because they're inconvenient

if god actually revealed himself in times of dire need why not reveal himself to hitler when he was in jail and direct his life in such a way that he would've never committed the holocaust? just to give an example

your view of god is an interesting one but then again he seems to be subjected to logical constraints as well he doesn't seem able to create a stone so heavy he can't lift it either


I do not believe the deistic or pantheistic god really 'cares' about his creation, he for all intents and purposes can't, he is simply aware, it may be that he does not even think (not sure about that one); I believe sentient beings do the thinking for him; so no in my view god doesn't love me but he doesn't hate me either, its probably a somewhat depressing view of god I suppose but its realistic

Tamandua
05-23-2010, 07:05 PM
Oh my god, you've just totally shown me the light. Super serial. That's such a conviencing arguement that I've never heard, is entirely original, and is so completely and fully water tight that it must prove there isn't a god. A god who is contradicts himself and is evil. Thank you. Thank you so much for showing me how silly it is for believing that god wants us to kill phags which is infact what I truely believed up until just this point. Serial, super serial, you had my ideas on this concept absolutely and perfectly correct. I'm going right now to disconnect myself from christianity. Thank you for sharing your absolutely brilliant and beautiful insight with me.

edit: I just discovered the best argument against god ever

If God was omniscient the japanese would not be the creators of pokemon

ONtop888
05-23-2010, 07:06 PM
you assume we are all god cares about and the only thing worthy of attention in this vast universe, but the reality is we are so very very small to give you perspective on just how small watch this vid

Z8BncJ7XMLk
I enjoyed your video, but it is not anything new for me. I'm aware of the expontentially immense size of our expanding universe, but that does not mean that God is not capable of attending to His own creation. And not only are we a small part of creation, but our individual lives are only a flicker of light amidst the illumination of the sun, to speak in images.


the abrahamic god has been 'slandered' as a murderer because he is one (at least in some instances in the myths written about him); in those myths he has committed or has ordered murder and genocide, he supports rape and tells people how best to go about it, he supports slavery and also tells people how best to go about it, he also supports human sacrifice it is all in there you can't get rid of the ugly parts of your faith simply because they're inconvenient
I don't get rid of them nor do I justify them. I use the historical critical method as a tool to understand the historical and cultural biases of the Ancient Near East that contributed to certain myths and law codes that are present in the Bible. Furthermore, I use Jesus as the intepretive key when reading any biblical text, and draw my conclusions from that methodology.


if god actually revealed himself in times of dire need why not reveal himself to hitler when he was in jail and direct his life in such a way that he would've never committed the holocaust? just to give an example
Maybe God did reveal himself to Hitler, perhaps multiple times, but he denied God's grace. God never promised the absence of pain and suffering, He promises to give us the strength to endure such trials and the courage to prophetically challenge that which is wrong. Speaking of Nazi Germany, Dietrich Bonhoeffer is an exemplary figure in his words, deeds, and life in regard to how God's grace radically transforms men to have the courage to lead amidst times of despair.


your view of god is an interesting one but then again he seems to be subjected to logical constraints as well he doesn't seem able to create a stone so heavy he can't lift it either
God is the ineffable mystery, whether God is subjected to logical constraints or not I don't know, I only use it as a dialectical exercise in trying to further understand my Creator.



I do not believe the deistic or pantheistic really 'cares' about his creation, he for all intents and purposes can't, he is simply aware, he does not even think; I believe sentient beings do the thinking for him; so no in my view god doesn't love me but he doesn't hate me either

Interesting, but essentially you are saying that we, the sentient beings, comprise and create God, but if that's the case, then what created us, and what created that....so on until infinite regression. If God is aware, then what is God aware of, and what is he?

GoJu
05-23-2010, 07:10 PM
Oh my god, you've just totally shown me the light. Super serial. That's such a conviencing arguement that I've never heard, is entirely original, and is so completely and fully water tight that it must prove there isn't a god. A god who is contradicts himself and is evil. Thank you. Thank you so much for showing me how silly it is for believing that god wants us to kill phags which is infact what I truely believed up until just this point. Serial, super serial, you had my ideas on this concept absolutely and perfectly correct. I'm going right now to disconnect myself from christianity. Thank you for sharing your absolutely brilliant and beautiful insight with me.

ontop888 asked me what I thought

I never said there wasn't a god, just not the abrahamic one

you believe that god will give people a reward after being murdered for praying really really hard, you're not a lost cause but I'd say you're close

GoJu
05-23-2010, 07:22 PM
ontop888 - god is aware of all that exists

god is compromised of us and all else that is in existence since he is existence itself

this would be how I make sense of the world with god included

I'm well aware that the bible was written by middle easterners 4000 years ago and they made due with the tools and observations available, and their cultural biases went into their religions

maybe god did try to influence hitler and he wouldn't listen but the abrahamic god was content with manipulating pharaoh's ramses' mind during the events of the exodus why not save 6 million of his chosen such a horrible ideal, again maybe that is what happened I'm just saying it doesn't seem very likely

I think the pantheistic view makes more sense than the diestic view but the issue of 'creation' is a tricky one and the issue of what god 'is' well noones been able to answer that

I came from my parents and they came from their parents and you can trace all the way back to a rodent during the time of the dinosaurs that rodent was probably a mutant of some reptile that could be traced back to prehistoric fish all the way back to the first cells that were a combination of the molecules gathered up in the sea which are a combination of the elements fused in stars and you can keep going all the way back to the big bang, some parts of string theory say the big bang was created from the contact of two 'branes' as it were, but really we just don't know, when you extrapollate back far enough our physics goes to hell and the answer is we just don't know

ONtop888
05-23-2010, 07:30 PM
ontop888 - god is aware of all that exists

god is compromised of us and all else that is in existence since he is existence itself

this would be how I make sense of the world with god included

I think the pantheistic view makes more sense than the diestic view but the issue of 'creation' is a tricky one and the issue of what god 'is' well noones been able to answer that
I can appreciate your position, it shows critical thinking, but it still lacks conherence IMO -- but then again you acknowledged this, so I can respect that.


I came from my parents and they came from their parents and you can trace all the way back to a rodent during the time of the dinosaurs that rodent was probably a mutant of some reptile that could be traced back to prehistoric fish all the way back to the first cells that were a combination of the molecules gathered up in the sea which are a combination of the elements fused in stars and you can keep going all the way back to the big bang, some parts of string theory say the big bang was created from the contact of two 'branes' as it were, but really we just don't know, when you extrapollate back far enough our physics goes to hell and the answer is we just don't know

Yes, we are all share common ancestry from the great apes to the stars, but what about God? You see, pantheism states that God is in creation, and he is creation, and creation is him. Therefore, God is not an external source. Theism, maintains that God is external yet His presence permeates the world. If God is external, whether He is deistic of theistic, then He can exists outside of the series (of creation) and can thus be the 'first cause' of the series of life.

GoJu
05-23-2010, 07:38 PM
I can appreciate your position, it shows critical thinking, but it still lacks conherence IMO -- but then again you acknowledged this, so I can respect that.



Yes, we are all share common ancestry from the great apes to the stars, but what about God? You see, pantheism states that God is in creation, and he is creation, and creation is him. Therefore, God is not an external source. Theism, maintains that God is external yet His presence permeates the world. If God is external, whether He is deistic of theistic, then He can exists outside of the series (of creation) and can thus be the 'first cause' of the series of life.

perhaps it does lack coherence, I'm no philosopher really

without pantheism and I were positing a god I would take the diestic first cause argument but if god is external you would then have to ask where did he come from

but both of our views are simply one big apologetic, the more correct answer regardless of ideas/beliefs IMO is to just say we don't know

ONtop888
05-23-2010, 07:43 PM
perhaps it does lack coherence, I'm no philosopher really

without pantheism and I were positing a god I would take the diestic first cause argument but if god is external you would then have to ask where did he come from

The real thrust of Aquinas' argument is not that every series must have a beginning, but that every series must depend on something outside of the series in order to have a beginning.

It is not a rebuttal to say that everything must have a cause, so who caused God? Aquinas' argument doesn't operate under the premise that everything that exists needs a cause, only that everything that exists in the universe needs a cause. God is an immaterial spirit, He has always been proclaimed as such. Existing outside of the universe, He is not part of the series, therefore, the rules of the series, including causation, don't logically apply to Him.

AREMNANT
05-23-2010, 08:44 PM
First you stated,


God sends out his orders (through a highly unreliable chain of command) and if you don't follow them he will send you to his concentration camp known as Hell..

Then,


Fine, so there is no Hell as I spoke of it.

Is it your intention to be dishonest by stating untruths!

Next,


God still punishes sin does he not?

Yes!



The Bible tells of countless innocent people who he has put to death does it not?

No! The bible states, "All are guilty of sin and the wages of sin is death"

"Sin has dominion over you, therefore you are a slave to whom you obey; whether it is of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness.

I speak in the manner of men because of the weakness of your flesh; for as you have yielded your members as slaves to uncleanness, and to lawless act unto lawless act, even so now yield your members as slaves to righteousness unto holiness.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our LORD"



He is still a dictator of laws and a dealer of death and destruction for those who disobey. Just as the Pharaoh enslaved God's "chosen people", so does God seek to enslave all of mankind under his brutal celestial regime. He is the ultimate enemy of freedom.

YOU ARE WRONG, Show us in the Bible where it states the above!!!

The Bible states, Behold, I have created the smith that blows the coals in the fire, and that brings forth an instrument for His work, and I have CREATED THE WASTER TO DESTROY" (Isaiah 54:16).

God said He created "The WASTER" and He created him "TO DESTROY" Now then, WHO***8217;S role is it to "destroy" the flesh of man so that the spirit may be saved?

"In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one UNTO SATAN for DESTRUCTION of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (I Cor. 5:4-5).

It is SATAN who was created from his very beginning to be "the WASTER to DESTROY" men***8217;s flesh (carnal mindedness) so that they learn not to blaspheme (I Tim. 1:20).

"He that commits sin is of the DEVIL [Gk: Adversary, Satan] for the Devil SINS FROM THE BEGINNING. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the WORKS of the Devil" (I John 3:8).

and

You are of your FATHER the DEVIL [the GREAT DRAGON, OLD SERPENT, the DEVIL, and SATAN {Hebrew for Adversary -- I Pet. 5:8} Rev. 12:9], and the lusts of your father ye will do... He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth [from the beginning], because there is no truth in him [from the beginning]. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar [from the beginning], and the father [the beginner] of it" (John 8:44).

GoJu
05-23-2010, 09:00 PM
The real thrust of Aquinas' argument is not that every series must have a beginning, but that every series must depend on something outside of the series in order to have a beginning.

It is not a rebuttal to say that everything must have a cause, so who caused God? Aquinas' argument doesn't operate under the premise that everything that exists needs a cause, only that everything that exists in the universe needs a cause. God is an immaterial spirit, He has always been proclaimed as such. Existing outside of the universe, He is not part of the series, therefore, the rules of the series, including causation, don't logically apply to Him.

I would agree with your first premise

it is surely a rebuttel, you can't just give god these qualities because its inconvenient to do otherwise; I mean yes the right thing to say to avoid causation would be to say that it doesn't apply to him but WHY doesn't it apply it to him? ( and yes causation according to our viewpoint probably doesn't work outside the universe but that's not a face necessarily)

ONtop888
05-23-2010, 09:05 PM
I would agree with your first premise

it is surely a rebuttel, you can't just give god these qualities because its inconvenient to do otherwise; I mean yes the right thing to say to avoid causation would be to say that it doesn't apply to him but WHY doesn't it apply it to him? ( and yes causation according to our viewpoint probably doesn't work outside the universe but that's not a face necessarily)

It is not an adequate rebuttal because causation, as far as I know, doesn't apply to immaterial entities. God is given those qualities from His description in the Bible -- immaterial, creator, eternal, etc., and, subsequently, theologians use those descriptions to formulate a coherent philosophical/scientific basis for the existence of God based on the new innovations in every historical epoch.

Furthermore, it says that God exists outside of time, so therefore, he is "out of the series," which I explained via Aquinas.

illriginalized
05-23-2010, 09:16 PM
give better answers, problem solved

ontop888 - chirstianity says god knows you before you knew yourself this would imply a being for which there is no concepts such as past and future, what we perseive as different instances in time would be different instances of the present for him/she/it this there implies omnipresence and omnipetence you just said the same the greeks but gave it a different name

God exists outside of the realm of Time. God is the Alpha and Omega. If anything, the realm of time exists within God.

jackal337
05-23-2010, 09:31 PM
Is it your intention to be dishonest by stating untruths!
No, I'm simply trying to go along with your beliefs for the sake of argument. I assumed you believed in Hell as a literal afterlife of suffering and torment, because that is what many Christians believe. If you believe otherwise, fine. It does not really affect my argument.


No! The bible states, "All are guilty of sin and the wages of sin is death"

"Sin has dominion over you, therefore you are a slave to whom you obey; whether it is of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness.

I speak in the manner of men because of the weakness of your flesh; for as you have yielded your members as slaves to uncleanness, and to lawless act unto lawless act, even so now yield your members as slaves to righteousness unto holiness.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our LORD"
All are guilty of sin? What about infants, or even the unborn? God surely has killed unborn children in times like the flood of Noah and when he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. He killed the first born of all Egypt, which no doubt included very young children and infants.

God also killed many of his own "chosen people" the Jews. He sent plagues against them and killed many for trivial reasons.



YOU ARE WRONG, Show us in the Bible where it states the above!!!

The Bible states, Behold, I have created the smith that blows the coals in the fire, and that brings forth an instrument for His work, and I have CREATED THE WASTER TO DESTROY" (Isaiah 54:16).

God said He created "The WASTER" and He created him "TO DESTROY" Now then, WHO***8217;S role is it to "destroy" the flesh of man so that the spirit may be saved?

"In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one UNTO SATAN for DESTRUCTION of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (I Cor. 5:4-5).

It is SATAN who was created from his very beginning to be "the WASTER to DESTROY" men***8217;s flesh (carnal mindedness) so that they learn not to blaspheme (I Tim. 1:20).

"He that commits sin is of the DEVIL [Gk: Adversary, Satan] for the Devil SINS FROM THE BEGINNING. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the WORKS of the Devil" (I John 3:8).

and

You are of your FATHER the DEVIL [the GREAT DRAGON, OLD SERPENT, the DEVIL, and SATAN {Hebrew for Adversary -- I Pet. 5:8} Rev. 12:9], and the lusts of your father ye will do... He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth [from the beginning], because there is no truth in him [from the beginning]. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar [from the beginning], and the father [the beginner] of it" (John 8:44).

The entire Bible is a propaganda piece intended to make people love God out of fear! God wants the entire world to worship him and obey his commandments. If you don't you will be ****ed in the afterlife one way or the other. Sounds like an oppressive dictatorship if there ever was one.

At least God does not seem to unleash his rage on the world anymore. Now that we have modern science and technology to document everything that happens on our planet, God has been mysteriously absent from human affairs. But in the days of the OT, the Earth was awash in the blood of those who incurred the wrath of the slaughterer from beyond the stars.

CarDent
05-23-2010, 09:44 PM
Good post. However, someone must have created these diseases that go around, since things like the AIDs virus are also living things.

Virus' need a host to survive or exist, therefore they are not living, hence, it was not created by GOD. Basically, spontaneous mutations created viruss... So there you have it./

AREMNANT
05-23-2010, 10:42 PM
not one word in the bible is the word of god, again your bible quotes are found wanting

"The sword of the SPIRIT IS the word of God" ( Eph. 6:17).

Everything IN THE BIBLE pertains to a higher SPIRITUAL meaning than the physical examples, parables, metaphors, allegories, stories and symbols in which they are written. They are words of SPIRIT!

John tells us that:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… and the Word was MADE FLESH… grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:1, 14 & 17).


I am quite alive right now

"It is the spirit that quickens [gives life]; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are life" (John 6:63).


osiris and mithras were both born of virgins on december 25th, and both died and were resurrected on the third day for the sins of the world LONG before jesus did it, which one should I listen too?

Jesus stated, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life"!



YOU are responsible for yourself

God is responsible for His creation!


if all things are possible with god then is it possible for god to make a stone that is impossible for him to lift?

Stupidity! God IS AND DOES everything that He wishes-that is TOTAL SOVEREIGNTY!!!


if we are carnal and selfish GOD MADE US THIS WAY IT IS HIS FAULT

This is what the Bible states, "For the creation was not willingly subjected to vanity, but through Him subjecting it, on hope; that also the creation will be freed from the slavery of corruption to the freedom of the glory of the children of God"



I see so one of the greatest acts of evil in the 20th century the holocaust had a good purpose in god's eyes? I see it all now, thank you for your stunning revelation

Again, What is the purpose of Evil, if the holocaust was one of the greatest acts of evil in the 20th century?

GoJu
05-24-2010, 05:50 AM
God exists outside of the realm of Time. God is the Alpha and Omega. If anything, the realm of time exists within God.

I believe the cosmos has all of those qualitites which is why I'm keen to say that the cosmos and god are one in the same

97srad750
05-24-2010, 07:07 AM
One thing I know is there is never a "Quick question for all believers of God", and the person isn't really looking for an answer

AREMNANT
05-24-2010, 02:22 PM
No, I'm simply trying to go along with your beliefs for the sake of argument.


So, you have no integrity and you just want to argue just to argue!


I assumed you believed in Hell as a literal afterlife of suffering and torment, because that is what many Christians believe. If you believe otherwise, fine. It does not really affect my argument.

First, you should not assume anything, if you don't know! Second, I believe the Bible when it states,

"God our Saviour, who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth; and again THE living God, is the Savior of ALL men, especially of believers" (1 Tim. 2;4)

"If you confess the Lord Jesus with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved"

AND

Since it has been written,

"Every knee will bow to Jesus Christ, and every tongue confess to God." Isa. 45:23 and AGAIN- At the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of heavenly ones, and of earthly ones, and of ones under the earth;and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


All are guilty of sin? What about infants, or even the unborn? God surely has killed unborn children in times like the flood of Noah and when he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. He killed the first born of all Egypt, which no doubt included very young children and infants.

AGAIN, ALL ARE GUILTY! "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psa 51:5

GOD can kill and bring back to life, you cannot. So, what is your point?


God also killed many of his own "chosen people" the Jews. He sent plagues against them and killed many for trivial reasons.

What is your point, if this is true?



The entire Bible is a propaganda piece intended to make people love God out of fear! God wants the entire world to worship him and obey his commandments. If you don't you will be ****ed in the afterlife one way or the other. Sounds like an oppressive dictatorship if there ever was one.

At least God does not seem to unleash his rage on the world anymore. Now that we have modern science and technology to document everything that happens on our planet, God has been mysteriously absent from human affairs. But in the days of the OT, the Earth was awash in the blood of those who incurred the wrath of the slaughterer from beyond the stars.

All nonsense!

thor93
04-14-2011, 04:08 PM
I don't have a response for why babies die. I've thought about this and lost more sleep over this than most people, athiest or theist. I've been the unfortunate paramedic who has had to tell a young mother than their baby is dead (because if SIDS). I've had to make the decision to stop CPR because the emergency room in a bag that I bring to each call wasn't enough. After many years of seeing some of the worst things imaginable I have come to the conclusion that there is not an answer for this question, regardless of your faith or belief in God.

As far as the others, human beings created most of them, not God. Crime and poverty are man-made. When man has to answer for why these exist, only then should God have to. God isn't the one knocking off liquor stores and pulling drive by's.

Disease and death. Again, how much of this can be put onto the shoulders of man? As we've depleted our natural resources, destroyed out environments, and failed to utilize safer products and machines our cancer and sickness rates have gone up. Coinsidence? Should we blame God for BP's irresponsible behavior and the month long oil leak?

Asking God why these things happen is a fair thing to do. But I'd be questioning those directly responsible for why they happen first.

Why can't doctors figure out what causes SIDS and how to prevent it?
Why can't scientists figure out ways to eliminate disease?
Why do people have to do harm to other people?
Why do we have people in such poverty while we have hundreds of billionaires?




In on thread. This is the best post by far. The "4 Why's" are really valid points. They basically took my own words/comments right out of me.

SurvivalX
04-14-2011, 04:14 PM
Lets take the original post a bit further. If he is all powerful, all knowing then he knew ahead of time exactly what course humans were going to take over the years. He knew we would kill each other, that famine would be prominent, that babies would be stillborn, and that we would have lots of hate in our hearts.

He didn't know this as a statistic, but rather knew EXACTLY what each and every one of us were going to do during our lives. So even if he birthed this world with out his constant interference, to "give us free will", it is impossible for him to do so because he was all knowing in the first place.

So yes, he knew you were going to be born, exactly how you were going to live, and that you were going to renounce his name and that you were going to hell for it. Because if he didn't, then he isn't "all knowing".

wings_unhinged
04-14-2011, 04:16 PM
strong bump

outlikeatrout
04-14-2011, 04:22 PM
Insightful post. I don't think this has ever been asked here, and definitely not multiple times.

Furthermore, this question is definitely not in the bible itself.



Oh wait

Habakkuk 1:2-4

Habakkuk’s Complaint

2O LORD,(B) how long shall I cry for help,
and you will not hear?
Or cry to you(C) "Violence!"
and you will not save?
3(D) Why do you make me see iniquity,
and why do you idly look at wrong?
Destruction(E) and violence are before me;
strife and contention arise.
4(F) So the law is paralyzed,
and justice never goes forth.
(G) For the wicked surround the righteous;
so justice goes forth perverted.

IAMRED
04-14-2011, 04:25 PM
Do you want the long or short answer?

Oops, OP is banned.

Alchem
04-14-2011, 04:45 PM
What the **** is wrong with all these Atheist phaggots making the same threads about lame arguments that have been answered and debunked in many different ways millions of times before?!!!!!!!1111!!!!!1111one!!!

Harbinger
04-14-2011, 04:49 PM
What the **** is wrong with all these Atheist phaggots making the same threads about lame arguments that have been answered and debunked in many different ways millions of times before?!!!!!!!1111!!!!!1111one!!!

Maybe we're just trying to get a good answer instead of the same old circular theist bable**** we always get.

TheGunShow777
04-14-2011, 04:59 PM
Maybe we're just trying to get a good answer instead of the same old circular theist bable**** we always get.

Answer: God is not perfect nor does he know everything. He knows constants but not variables. Things in the universe that are not solvable by whole numbers for example can not be known until the variables are discovered.

God = super genius that created the earth much like an AI computer game in which the inhabitants of said computer world can make random choices based on programming allowing them to do so. Said creator grew attached to some of these characters and thus allows to world to carry on in honor of them.

The terms "perfect" and "all knowing" along with all the other omni terms are totally subjective. A super computer is all knowing in terms of equations except when a variable is present. It knows every outcome of every scenario of every possible variable that can be selected......but must wait until the variable is selected to know. Ex: free will.

TheGunShow777
04-14-2011, 05:01 PM
And if that analogy sounds silly I invite you to delete some of these guys WOW characters and see if an attachment has been built with them.

Harbinger
04-14-2011, 05:06 PM
Answer: God is not perfect nor does he know everything. He knows constants but not variables. Things in the universe that are not solvable by whole numbers for example can not be known until the variables are discovered.

God = super genius that created the earth much like an AI computer game in which the inhabitants of said computer world can make random choices based on programming allowing them to do so. Said creator grew attached to some of these characters and thus allows to world to carry on in honor of them.

The terms "perfect" and "all knowing" along with all the other omni terms are totally subjective. A super computer is all knowing in terms of equations except when a variable is present. It knows every outcome of every scenario of every possible variable that can be selected......but must wait until the variable is selected to know. Ex: free will.

This may very well be the closest to an acceptable answer I've seen.

Muscle Mania Matt
04-14-2011, 05:14 PM
The real thrust of Aquinas' argument is not that every series must have a beginning, but that every series must depend on something outside of the series in order to have a beginning.

It is not a rebuttal to say that everything must have a cause, so who caused God? Aquinas' argument doesn't operate under the premise that everything that exists needs a cause, only that everything that exists in the universe needs a cause. God is an immaterial spirit, He has always been proclaimed as such. Existing outside of the universe, He is not part of the series, therefore, the rules of the series, including causation, don't logically apply to Him.

what i don't like about this argument is that you are pleading for special circumstances. the rules don't apply to god. why? because you say so. if god could have an uncaused existance, then why couldn't our universe? how does one exist outside of the universe, and what does it mean to be outside of the series? If this is indeed the case, what evidence is there for it? You don't really offer any qualitative decription of god. If you are calling that thing that our universe came from before space and time existed, then sure call it whatever you want, but that has nothing to do with the personal god of christianity. would something that stands outside of time, space, and causality express the human traits demonstrated by yahweh in the bible?
edit: should have read just a little bit further. strong bump

Harbinger
04-14-2011, 05:21 PM
what i don't like about this argument is that you are pleading for special circumstances. the rules don't apply to god. why? because you say so. if god could have an uncaused existance, then why couldn't our universe? how does one exist outside of the universe, and what does it mean to be outside of the series? If this is indeed the case, what evidence is there for it? You don't really offer any qualitative decription of god. If you are calling that thing that our universe came from before space and time existed, then sure call it whatever you want, but that has nothing to do with the personal god of christianity. would something that stands outside of time, space, and causality express the human traits demonstrated by yahweh in the bible?
edit: should have read just a little bit further. strong bump

Do you need me to send you a couple of bucks for a new keyboard? Your shift key seems to not be working. :cool:

Muscle Mania Matt
04-14-2011, 05:25 PM
do you need me to send you a couple of bucks for a new keyboard? Your shift key seems to not be working. :cool:

we can start a collection
edit:that's interesting.

Harbinger
04-14-2011, 05:26 PM
we can start a collection

I just had a funny thought. You're a mod with no rep power, you're a modlet. :D

Muscle Mania Matt
04-14-2011, 05:29 PM
I just had a funny thought. You're a mod with no rep power, you're a modlet. :D

That is excellent.

TheGunShow777
04-14-2011, 07:46 PM
This may very well be the closest to an acceptable answer I've seen.

*turns on conversion mode and prepares to harvest teh sinnar*

notserious.jpeg

Edit: my post was serious but not my intent to convert anyone lulz

Stizzel
04-14-2011, 08:24 PM
Answer: God is not perfect nor does he know everything. He knows constants but not variables. Things in the universe that are not solvable by whole numbers for example can not be known until the variables are discovered.

God = super genius that created the earth much like an AI computer game in which the inhabitants of said computer world can make random choices based on programming allowing them to do so. Said creator grew attached to some of these characters and thus allows to world to carry on in honor of them.

The terms "perfect" and "all knowing" along with all the other omni terms are totally subjective. A super computer is all knowing in terms of equations except when a variable is present. It knows every outcome of every scenario of every possible variable that can be selected......but must wait until the variable is selected to know. Ex: free will.

That is an interesting take on the god paradigm, but I have a feeling you don't have any more evidence to support your definition of the nature of god than any other theist.

IAMRED
04-14-2011, 08:40 PM
All right, quick question warrants quick answer. The chief end of all things is the manifestation of God's glory or excellence. That is the answer to any "why" question along the lines of the OP. The deeper question is how sin and its effects can function as a means of manifesting God's glory. The quick answer here is that God, being His attributes, can only reveal Himself maximally to His people if the world is as it presently is.

ppself
04-14-2011, 09:45 PM
So, uh.

Did anybody answer OP's question with sin being the factor to why there is disease, lying, murder, or starvation?

SlapBassist
04-14-2011, 09:55 PM
Why do things happen that are contrary to God's will? It WAS NOT God's will that Adam and Eve eat from the tree of knowledge, but they did - but still through that act which was not His will, He interwove His will through it.

If you can understand that, its the answer to your question

southeastoz
04-14-2011, 11:52 PM
So, uh.

Did anybody answer OP's question with sin being the factor to why there is disease, lying, murder, or starvation?

Sin which god, as an all powerful, all knowing creator would have very much known would come about, creating us so we would make those exact choices.

Lol at all the theists whining when this gets brought up. It's because it's never been answered without resorting to arguments I wouldn't accept from someone in the first grade.

kebABS
04-15-2011, 12:03 AM
If god is all knowing, all powerful why do some babies die after taking their first breath. Why is there crime, disease, death, poverty in a world created by a "perfect" being?

First and foremost we must establish that life is a test of faith. The devil instills evil thoughts into the minds of people. Those who listen to the devil lack faith and fail the test.

The devil challenges God's words and incites evil. Crime is a result of this. Poverty is often a result of crime as well as the 'negative' emotions that are fueled by the devil, e.g greed, jelousy

Test must have an ending yes? We will live eternally in heaven when we pass the test or if we fail, after we have visited hell and been punished for our sins

Physically perfect, mentally? No, or else we would not be getting tested

This is all from a Muslim perspective.

southeastoz
04-15-2011, 12:14 AM
First and foremost we must establish that life is a test of faith.

Unproven.

The devil instills evil thoughts into the minds of people.

Unproven.

Those who listen to the devil lack faith and fail the test.

Unproven.

The devil challenges God's words and incites evil. Crime is a result of this. Poverty is often a result of crime as well as the 'negative' emotions that are fueled by the devil, e.g greed, jelousy

Assuming for one second this is true, if god is an all powerful all knowing being, why doesn't he just get rid of the devil? They pals or something?

Test must have an ending yes? We will live eternally in heaven when we pass the test or if we fail, after we have visited hell and been punished for our sins

Physically perfect, mentally? No, or else we would not be getting tested

Tested when god already knows the answer right? You do know free will being tested is contradicted by the very definition of god given in the bible and quran right?

This is all from a Muslim perspective.

Pitiful answer, which honestly makes me worry for the direction of humanity. Good thing it's finally dying out.

kebABS
04-15-2011, 12:18 AM
Pitiful answer, which honestly makes me worry for the direction of humanity. Good thing it's finally dying out.

Everything you marked unproven was meant to be taken as a fact as I do not have the time to explain the entire religion, nor am i asking you to believe in it. OP asked for the justification of a range of things in our day to day lives in my eyes as a thiest. He did not ask for me to prove it.

IAMRED
04-15-2011, 12:19 AM
Pitiful answer, which honestly makes me worry for the direction of humanity. Good thing it's finally dying out.

You seem to be confident no theist can answer the OP, so perhaps you could tell me exactly how the following is incoherent:


All right, quick question warrants quick answer. The chief end of all things is the manifestation of God's glory or excellence. That is the answer to any "why" question along the lines of the OP. The deeper question is how sin and its effects can function as a means of manifesting God's glory. The quick answer here is that God, being His attributes, can only reveal Himself maximally to His people if the world is as it presently is.

Also, I am a determinist.

southeastoz
04-15-2011, 12:25 AM
Everything you marked unproven was meant to be taken as a fact as I do not have the time to explain the entire religion, nor am i asking you to believe in it. OP asked for the justification of a range of things in our day to day lives in my eyes as a thiest. He did not ask for me to prove it.
Yeah scratch those things then. If those were just assumptions simply take my answer at the end, and address it (if you want to).

You seem to be confident no theist can answer the OP, so perhaps you could tell me exactly how the following is incoherent:

Incoherent=/= pitiful.

Also, I am a determinist.

I deleted the first bits of your question as it comes down to:

"The quick answer here is that God, being His attributes, can only reveal Himself maximally to His people if the world is as it presently is."

He created the circumstances that would lead up to the world being as it "presently is."
He's all powerful, he can reveal himself any way he wants.

On second thoughts that is indeed incoherent to me, can you state it again (not in simpler terms, just rephrase it)? Maybe I've just used my brain too much today or something lol.

IAMRED
04-15-2011, 12:29 AM
Incoherent=/= pitiful.

Fine. The what is the sufficient condition for an argument to be pitiful?


He created the circumstances that would lead up to the world being as it "presently is."
He's all powerful, he can reveal himself any way he wants.

God can't do the impossible. Sin is therefore a precondition for God to reveal His wrath, compassion, mercifulness, graciousness, power, wisdom, et. al. Sin functions as a necessary means according to which God is able to fully reveal Himself to those whom He chooses.

southeastoz
04-15-2011, 12:42 AM
Fine. The what is the sufficient condition for an argument to be pitiful?

If it's ridiculous.

God can't do the impossible. Sin is therefore a precondition for God to reveal His wrath, compassion, mercifulness, graciousness, power, wisdom, et. al. Sin functions as a necessary means according to which God is able to fully reveal Himself to those whom He chooses.

Firstly thanks for rewriting that I'm tired as fawk today. Ok my thoughts:

God can't do the impossible? You don't think that contradicts the notion of him being all powerful (what is your religion if I might ask? Because all the abrahamic religions expressly state god as being an all powerful being. Not sure if you're a deist or something).
Not sure if I've got much more to say if I just contradicted your first point (in my eyes at least), but the fact he needs sin to reveal himself is again contradiction of him being an all powerful being (the very sin of which he created us knowing we would create, to his EXACT plans).

Might be better to find out if you're just defending god or a specific one?

IAMRED
04-15-2011, 12:58 AM
If it's ridiculous

If something is coherent, why would it be ridiculous?


God can't do the impossible? You don't think that contradicts the notion of him being all powerful (what is your religion if I might ask? Because all the abrahamic religions expressly state god as being an all powerful being. Not sure if you're a deist or something).

...the fact he needs sin to reveal himself is again contradiction of him being an all powerful being...

I'm a Christian. A Calvinist, to be more specific.

Omnipotence doesn't imply the capacity to do what is logically impossible. That wouldn't make sense. There are lots of things God can't do. He can't lie or deny Himself, according to some passages in the pastoral epistles. Just because God can't do certain things doesn't mean God isn't omnipotent. Omnipotence simply connotes sovereignty. God is in control of all things. He determines all things.

Furthermore, let us suppose your inference is true: God can do or be what is logically impossible (*). Now, you infer it is logically impossible (contradictory) for God to be both omnipotent and to be unable to do that which is impossible. But by (*), God could nevertheless be omnipotent and unable to do what is logically impossible. So that I say God cannot do or be that which is logically impossible is true regardless. If God can do or be contradictories, He can contradictorily be both omnipotent and unable to do that which is logically impossible :cool:

TheGunShow777
04-15-2011, 06:23 AM
That is an interesting take on the god paradigm, but I have a feeling you don't have any more evidence to support your definition of the nature of god than any other theist.

I never argued evidence at any time. The subject of God is one of philosophy not science. I have had that debate many times within the Fundamentalist Christian University I attend. The origin of life is NOT a scientific questions at this point in time. It is strictly philosophical. Science must be measurable, testable, and repeatable in which case neither abiogenesis nor creation by divinity provide.

Evolution is, however, testable and yes I agree with MOST of it's concepts.

EDIT: I do have tons of "Bible" proof to support this view on a theological level though. I don't think that pertains to this thread so I won't jack it.

mistaballoonhan
04-15-2011, 06:30 AM
Why do things happen that are contrary to God's will? It WAS NOT God's will that Adam and Eve eat from the tree of knowledge, but they did - but still through that act which was not His will, He interwove His will through it.

If you can understand that, its the answer to your question

Lol brb putting a bag of candy in the middle of the room and leaving a 3 year old alone.

"Hey don't eat that candy!"

Then punishing the 3 year old and all of his descendents for eternity for eating the candy you put right in front of his face and left him alone with, knowing he wouldn't be able to resist. Also did I mention you put a magic snake there who tries to convince him to eat it (he's never seen what a snake is, so he has no idea to be afraid of it).

Problem?

IAMRED
04-15-2011, 06:32 AM
EDIT: I do have tons of "Bible" proof to support this view on a theological level though. I don't think that pertains to this thread so I won't jack it.

Are you an open theist?

ppself
04-15-2011, 07:55 AM
Sin which god, as an all powerful, all knowing creator would have very much known would come about, creating us so we would make those exact choices.

Course God knew of it. He is a God, not some miscer on the RP with finite knowledge.

That doesn't mean that God would want to take away your volition and make you not sin though. Or would you want that?

God created us perfect.

That perfection included free-will. That free-will included defiance to God's standard. Which that denial of God's standard gave birth to Sin. All creation is now corrupted by sin.

It's not really that complicated of a concept.

lasher
04-15-2011, 08:24 AM
If something is coherent, why would it be ridiculous?



I'm a Christian. A Calvinist, to be more specific.

Omnipotence doesn't imply the capacity to do what is logically impossible. That wouldn't make sense. There are lots of things God can't do. He can't lie or deny Himself, according to some passages in the pastoral epistles. Just because God can't do certain things doesn't mean God isn't omnipotent. Omnipotence simply connotes sovereignty. God is in control of all things. He determines all things.

Furthermore, let us suppose your inference is true: God can do or be what is logically impossible (*). Now, you infer it is logically impossible (contradictory) for God to be both omnipotent and to be unable to do that which is impossible. But by (*), God could nevertheless be omnipotent and unable to do what is logically impossible. So that I say God cannot do or be that which is logically impossible is true regardless. If God can do or be contradictories, He can contradictorily be both omnipotent and unable to do that which is logically impossible :cool:

Very well said.

TheGunShow777
04-15-2011, 10:03 AM
Are you an open theist?

I am a pastor of a Christ following church. Not your typical pastor I will admit. *awaits claims of heresy*

NokAz
04-15-2011, 10:09 AM
If god is all knowing, all powerful why do some babies die after taking their first breath. Why is there crime, disease, death, poverty in a world created by a "perfect" being?

I remember I had an arguement with my christian friend about this exact topic his answer was that according to the bible we are all born sinners until we accept Jesus Christ as our savior, the babies dying early on in life if because God "knew" they would commit great sins so they died. Sins would be answered by the Devil because he tries to get as many souls as he to bring them down to hell, they go against the morals of the bible. Disease, poverty etc. is God punishing the 'nonbelievers' or 'testing' their faith.

that is what he told me.

TheGunShow777
04-15-2011, 10:24 AM
I remember I had an arguement with my christian friend about this exact topic his answer was that according to the bible we are all born sinners until we accept Jesus Christ as our savior, the babies dying early on in life if because God "knew" they would commit great sins so they died. Sins would be answered by the Devil because he tries to get as many souls as he to bring them down to hell, they go against the morals of the bible. Disease, poverty etc. is God punishing the 'nonbelievers' or 'testing' their faith.

that is what he told me.

Well just about none of that is supported by the Bible.

lasher
04-15-2011, 10:31 AM
Well just about none of that is supported by the Bible.

Right up to the first comma seems accurate enough IMO.

TheGunShow777
04-15-2011, 10:56 AM
Right up to the first comma seems accurate enough IMO.

I agree but I also think "original sin" is misunderstood as well. We aren't born "sinners" but rather born into sin. In other words we are born into a scenario that will inevitably lead to sin without Christ but saying it the former way leads one to believe that their very existence is sin. That is just not true.

lasher
04-15-2011, 10:58 AM
I agree but I also think "original sin" is misunderstood as well. We aren't born "sinners" but rather born into sin. In other words we are born into a scenario that will inevitably lead to sin without Christ but saying it the former way leads one to believe that their very existence is sin. That is just not true.

Yeah, I think we diverge pretty fundamentally with each other there, but I kinda figured that would be the case anyway.

TheGunShow777
04-15-2011, 11:50 AM
Yeah, I think we diverge pretty fundamentally with each other there, but I kinda figured that would be the case anyway.

There you have it. Two Christians agreeing with each other, the end is truly near. :D

IAMRED
04-15-2011, 12:05 PM
I am a pastor of a Christ following church. Not your typical pastor I will admit. *awaits claims of heresy*

You danced around the question. Whether you like it or not, you are a typical pastor :D

TheGunShow777
04-15-2011, 02:39 PM
You danced around the question. Whether you like it or not, you are a typical pastor :D

Actually I was going to say, "yes", but I figured you would rather know exactly what kind of Christian I am ect. so I added details. What part of it was "danced around"? Seemed like I gave more detail than I had to actually.

IAMRED
04-15-2011, 02:44 PM
Actually I was going to say, "yes", but I figured you would rather know exactly what kind of Christian I am ect. so I added details. What part of it was "danced around"? Seemed like I gave more detail than I had to actually.

I didn't see any yes or no. You seemed hesitant imo. But anyways, what do you make of passages in which Jesus is said to know all things (e.g. John 16:30, 21:17)?

TheGunShow777
04-15-2011, 02:59 PM
I didn't see any yes or no. You seemed hesitant imo. But anyways, what do you make of passages in which Jesus is said to know all things (e.g. John 16:30, 21:17)?

To know is to realize. You can only realize present tense. Jesus was stated as knowing the thoughts of individuals. Knowing hearts. Again I point to variables and constants. You could ask Jesus any equation. You could even ask "if/then" questions, but wherever there is a variable you will have nothing to realize.

Genesis 6 "God regretted that he had made man".

Genesis 11 "And God came down to see what man was up to..." slight paraphrase but accurate.

Concerning Abraham and Lot, God sought how many righteous were in Sodom. Could not find any. This is not something you and I could have done. When asked if there are any righteous people in your home town, you could not immediately count and realize the answer. All knowing is not a Biblical term. To be able to know is more accurate. God is able to know.

TheGunShow777
04-15-2011, 03:00 PM
I didn't see any yes or no.

If I pastor a Christ following church would you think I was or was not a Christian? Of course yes...

IAMRED
04-15-2011, 03:19 PM
If I pastor a Christ following church would you think I was or was not a Christian? Of course yes...

I didn't ask if you were a Christian.


All knowing is not a Biblical term. To be able to know is more accurate. God is able to know.

That's interesting, because when I read John 16:30 and 21:17, I read that Jesus knew all things. If Jesus didn't know a proposition, He wouldn't know all things. I don't see how you can hope to successfully pin your "variables" argument on a few anthropomorphic passages.

TheGunShow777
04-15-2011, 04:00 PM
I didn't ask if you were a Christian.



That's interesting, because when I read John 16:30 and 21:17, I read that Jesus knew all things. If Jesus didn't know a proposition, He wouldn't know all things. I don't see how you can hope to successfully pin your "variables" argument on a few anthropomorphic passages.

First you would have to prove that an objective term like "all knowing" was not being used as a subjective term by the speaker. Also note that is was the man saying to Jesus that he knew all things, not the Bible declaring as "God's word" that he knew all things.

I don't argue on this board because people will automatically assume they know where I stand on something without asking first. You're approaching these question with a prepared "aaaaaha!" as if you are already keen to where I stand on things.

With that said, you can quote me on this: The Bible is written by men who have experienced and known God. Those men wrote about God and their experiences as well as recorded words that God spoke to them. In short: The words of man about God and the words of God recorded by men who heard them.

Come at me bro.....but seriously though....come at me. /jakes

TheGunShow777
04-15-2011, 04:02 PM
I didn't ask if you were a Christian.




My mistake I forgot EXACTLY what you said. I didn't realize Christians were not theists. Strange.

Stizzel
04-15-2011, 09:18 PM
The subject of God is one of philosophy not science.

So God does not exist in the literal sense. That is a refreshing acknowledgment. Logic can be almost as brutal as the scientific method. What is your logical argument for the existence of god?

TheGunShow777
04-15-2011, 10:47 PM
So God does not exist in the literal sense. That is a refreshing acknowledgment. Logic can be almost as brutal as the scientific method. What is your logical argument for the existence of god?

If something exists, there is a strong likeliness that something similar existed prior to its existence. In my trade, I can create logic in robotics and create random logic outside of my control. Mankind has created all sorts of variable worlds in the realm of computer programing as well. Manufacturing seeks a control and repeatable world and one without emotion. For this reason my job stimulates my mind much less than a video game does!

I am a creator. Therefore I am a god (definition of god is subjective). Logic then tells me a similar god may possibly exist. Silliness would rule out all possibilities of something else like me existing prior to me. You dig?

Maiar
04-15-2011, 10:49 PM
Course God knew of it. He is a God, not some miscer on the RP with finite knowledge.

That doesn't mean that God would want to take away your volition and make you not sin though. Or would you want that?

God created us perfect.

That perfection included free-will. That free-will included defiance to God's standard. Which that denial of God's standard gave birth to Sin. All creation is now corrupted by sin.

It's not really that complicated of a concept.

If we were created perfect according to God's standards we wouldn't have sinned. God is an inept creator.

TheGunShow777
04-15-2011, 11:00 PM
If we were created perfect according to God's standards we wouldn't have sinned. God is an inept creator.

If we were programmed to be random then we were programmed to possibly void God's standard. The entire purpose was to NOT be perfect according to a standard. Aside from that, in what way is an inept God not still God. Inept is a subjective term.

You don't like the world as God made it?

dealwithit.jpg

ppself
04-15-2011, 11:06 PM
If we were created perfect according to God's standards we wouldn't have sinned. God is an inept creator.

So your saying a creature that has no volition is perfect?

southeastoz
04-15-2011, 11:20 PM
If something is coherent, why would it be ridiculous?



I'm a Christian. A Calvinist, to be more specific.

Omnipotence doesn't imply the capacity to do what is logically impossible.

If you look up the very definition you'll see it means to have unlimited power. To do the impossible absolutely comes into this. It's god for christ sake. Saying things like the above would probably get you stoned during the majority of the church's existence.

That wouldn't make sense. There are lots of things God can't do. He can't lie or deny Himself, according to some passages in the pastoral epistles.

Not sure what I can say to this, that's a contradiction you'll have to rationalise for yourself.

Just because God can't do certain things doesn't mean God isn't omnipotent. Omnipotence simply connotes sovereignty. God is in control of all things. He determines all things.

Again I don't see how this makes sense. He determines all things, so he did allow sin to enter this world or he didn't? He created adam and eve not possesing the requisite knowledge required not to cause a collosal **** up, he also created us knowing our every single action before it happened. For those saying that's still free will - that's absurd - acts of wills are because of stimulus such as our genetic desires and our surrounds - all put in place by the big man himself. Seems a bit mean doesn't it? I mean over 100 billion humans have been alive approximately, and I can say the vast majority are being tortured relentlessly right now? I can't see why he would do that.

Furthermore, let us suppose your inference is true: God can do or be what is logically impossible (*). Now, you infer it is logically impossible (contradictory) for God to be both omnipotent and to be unable to do that which is impossible. But by (*), God could nevertheless be omnipotent and unable to do what is logically impossible. So that I say God cannot do or be that which is logically impossible is true regardless. If God can do or be contradictories, He can contradictorily be both omnipotent and unable to do that which is logically impossible :cool:

Again I don't think you understand the defintion of omnipotent. Simple really, god created our genetic makeup, our surroundings, our every. single. circumstance. knowing precisely what would happen before it does. I don't even think you answered the question frankly. God can remove evil and sin whenever he likes, he's god.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

HopingInJah
04-16-2011, 02:38 AM
If we were created perfect according to God's standards we wouldn't have sinned. God is an inept creator.


What about all the angels who didn't partake in the rebellion with satan? They could have joined satan and the rest, right? They chose not to. So, the bible is showing that it is a matter of choice.

Perfection doesn't dictate/protect one from disobeying. Whether we are perfect or imperfect, shouldn't effect our choice to obey Jehovah! Sure, being imperfect makes it harder to obey, but it is doable with help from Jehovah.



HopingInJehovah

IAMRED
04-16-2011, 02:28 PM
My mistake I forgot EXACTLY what you said. I didn't realize Christians were not theists. Strange.

And you're still forgetting. Do you not know what an open theist is? Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_theism)


First you would have to prove that an objective term like "all knowing" was not being used as a subjective term by the speaker. Also note that is was the man saying to Jesus that he knew all things, not the Bible declaring as "God's word" that he knew all things.

Jesus didn't contradict either. You think Jesus would have let a lie - about who He was, no less - pass unnoticed?

What do you mean by a difference between objective/subjective omniscience?


I don't argue on this board because people will automatically assume they know where I stand on something without asking first. You're approaching these question with a prepared "aaaaaha!" as if you are already keen to where I stand on things.

Actually, I did ask you and you totally misunderstood my question.

IAMRED
04-16-2011, 02:41 PM
If you look up the very definition you'll see it means to have unlimited power. To do the impossible absolutely comes into this.

No, it doesn't. Power merely connotes control or authority. God is in control and exercises authority over all things. But "things" is logical. There are no ontological contradictions. There are no square circles. How, then, do you propose that God has power over what doesn't exist? Does God exercise authority over iuohfeiohdfoh? What does that even mean? It means nothing. It's nonsense, just like a "square circle" or any other contradiction.


Saying things like the above would probably get you stoned during the majority of the church's existence.

Don't really care. Those are the same people who do the most damage to the intellectual reputation of Christianity.


Not sure what I can say to this, that's a contradiction you'll have to rationalise for yourself.

It's not a contradiction because you're attempting to smuggle a definition of omnipotence to which I don't adhere into my beliefs. Try again.


Again I don't see how this makes sense. He determines all things, so he did allow sin to enter this world or he didn't?

Did.


He created adam and eve not possesing the requisite knowledge required not to cause a collosal **** up

Yes, He did.


he also created us knowing our every single action before it happened. For those saying that's still free will - that's absurd - acts of wills are because of stimulus such as our genetic desires and our surrounds - all put in place by the big man himself.

I don't believe man has a "free will," if by the you mean a will whose choices are not determined by God.


Seems a bit mean doesn't it? I mean over 100 billion humans have been alive approximately, and I can say the vast majority are being tortured relentlessly right now? I can't see why he would do that.

I already explained that: The chief end of all things is the manifestation of God's glory or excellence. Without sin, God's elect could not know Him. You are thinking anthropocentrically. That's typical of atheism. Christianity, on the other hand, is theocentric.


Again I don't think you understand the defintion of omnipotent. Simple really, god created our genetic makeup, our surroundings, our every. single. circumstance. knowing precisely what would happen before it does. I don't even think you answered the question frankly. God can remove evil and sin whenever he likes, he's god.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

I said I'm a determinist. Not only does God allow evil, He is the ultimate cause of evil. It does not follow that God is evil, for His purpose for evil is so that His glory is maximally manifested. The way in which we glorify God is obedience to His commandments. God, on the other hand, has no external commands or law to which He is subject. This is a rather straightforward answer to the so-called problem of evil.

TheGunShow777
04-16-2011, 02:43 PM
And you're still forgetting. Do you not know what an open theist is? Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_theism)



Literally was unaware. After reading that I suppose you could say I am an "open theist". However, I strongly oppose the binding of any title which is why I declare myself as nothing more than a Christ follower. I thought you were saying are you "open about being a theist". To which I was like....."duh....". :D




Jesus didn't contradict either. You think Jesus would have let a lie - about who He was, no less - pass unnoticed?

What do you mean by, "Didn't let"? Those words were written no less than 30 years after Jesus died. It was nothing more than a recount of events written by men who knew him. I strongly disagree with the notion that the writers of these books were blind folded and "weegie boarded" their way through the Gospels. And no I can't spell weegie....but it sounds like that lol


What do you mean by a difference between objective/subjective omniscience?

Knowledge of the future rests on whether or not you believe the future is already determined. Also relies on how you view the concept of time. If it has not happened it cannot be realized and if it cannot be realized it is not knowable. To predict future events is possible because you can foresee the outplay of many larger events ahead of time even if minor events are not known. The sun will burn out. I am Nostradomis (spelling).

God knows everything that can be known. That is all knowing. Certain aspects of the future cannot be known.

IAMRED
04-16-2011, 03:28 PM
What do you mean by, "Didn't let"? Those words were written no less than 30 years after Jesus died. It was nothing more than a recount of events written by men who knew him. I strongly disagree with the notion that the writers of these books were blind folded and "weegie boarded" their way through the Gospels. And no I can't spell weegie....but it sounds like that lol

I didn't say "didn't let," so I have no idea what you've inferred. I also don't know how I'm supposed to understand those last few sentences. Are you saying Scripture is not God-breathed?


Knowledge of the future rests on whether or not you believe the future is already determined.

I'm a determinist, so I would agree with that.


To predict future events is possible because you can foresee the outplay of many larger events ahead of time even if minor events are not known. The sun will burn out. I am Nostradomis (spelling).

God knows everything that can be known. That is all knowing. Certain aspects of the future cannot be known.

Why not? Presumably, because you don't think God determines the future, in which case do you believe prophecies were only educated guesses?

TheGunShow777
04-16-2011, 05:28 PM
I didn't say "didn't let," so I have no idea what you've inferred. I also don't know how I'm supposed to understand those last few sentences. Are you saying Scripture is not God-breathed?

You actually said, and I quote, "You think Jesus would have let a lie....". And I already stated my stance on scripture. No I do not believe it is "God breathed". If that were so, then God's breath is full of contradictions, misplaced names, and missing a few lost books. The Bible is a complete work that has everything necessary for one's redemption. It needs nothing else nor does it need anything taken away. But it is not "God-breathed" in its entirety.

And please don't quote anything from within the Bible as proof that the Bible itself is inspired as a whole. That never was nor ever will be grounds for accepting the decisions made in 300ish AD.


I'm a determinist, so I would agree with that.

With that said......anything else either of us says or does was predetermined therefore POINTLESS... Why continue this discussion?


Why not? Presumably, because you don't think God determines the future, in which case do you believe prophecies were only educated guesses?

Prophecies, as I stated, were known prior to their occurrence because of clear constants. The minor details are both unknown and irrelevant. If God determines my future then I hope he decides to determine me to behave and accept him.... There really is no reason to do anything on my own if that is the case.

IAMRED
04-16-2011, 05:53 PM
You actually said, and I quote, "You think Jesus would have let a lie....".

And you'll notice in that quote I didn't say "didn't let." I said "let." I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm asking if you think Jesus would have let a lie about Himself be perpetuated unchecked.


And I already stated my stance on scripture. No I do not believe it is "God breathed". If that were so, then God's breath is full of contradictions, misplaced names, and missing a few lost books. The Bible is a complete work that has everything necessary for one's redemption. It needs nothing else nor does it need anything taken away. But it is not "God-breathed" in its entirety.

If that is what you think, why trust any of it?


And please don't quote anything from within the Bible as proof that the Bible itself is inspired as a whole. That never was nor ever will be grounds for accepting the decisions made in 300ish AD.

What is your opinion of first principles?


With that said......anything else either of us says or does was predetermined therefore POINTLESS... Why continue this discussion?

To grow in grace and knowledge. Your assertion that determinism implies pointlessness is not warranted nor can it be warranted.


Prophecies, as I stated, were known prior to their occurrence because of clear constants. The minor details are both unknown and irrelevant.

How does God know the so-called "minor," unknown details are irrelevant? Think about it.


If God determines my future then I hope he decides to determine me to behave and accept him.... There really is no reason to do anything on my own if that is the case.

Another unsubstantiated opinion. If you do get around to argue that free will is a precondition of a meaningful life, I'm ready.

TheGunShow777
04-16-2011, 06:34 PM
..........If you do get around to argue...........

Look dude, I don't have time nor the desire to argue about anything. I came into this thread stating my position to ATHEISTS......How typical that I end up "arguing" with another Christian.

I spend most of my time teaching Christians how to develop relationships and how to have a positive impact on the people around them. Arguing about minute details of theology does not coincide with said teaching.

I've stated my stance. I had no intention of converting you or anyone else to my stance. So if your purpose in discussing these things has an agenda other than to get to know where I stand, then I think the rest of this is pointless.

IAMRED
04-16-2011, 06:37 PM
Respond or don't respond to whatever you want, no need to explain it to me.

lasher
04-16-2011, 06:41 PM
Look dude, I don't have time nor the desire to argue about anything. I came into this thread stating my position to ATHEISTS......How typical that I end up "arguing" with another Christian.

I spend most of my time teaching Christians how to develop relationships and how to have a positive impact on the people around them. Arguing about minute details of theology does not coincide with said teaching.

I've stated my stance. I had no intention of converting you or anyone else to my stance. So if your purpose in discussing these things has an agenda other than to get to know where I stand, then I think the rest of this is pointless.

Thread jack. Notsureifsrs.jpg. see bolded quote for details...

IAMRED
04-16-2011, 06:44 PM
Thread jack. Notsureifsrs.jpg. see bolded quote for details...

Yea, it's obvious whether or not God knows all things is important, but then again, it's as obvious he doesn't want to answer my questions which show why it is. Go figure.

TheGunShow777
04-16-2011, 06:49 PM
Thread jack. Notsureifsrs.jpg. see bolded quote for details...

If you think the subject of "does God determine our future" is a vital topic then sue me. I have to speak tomorrow to people who are going through divorces, job loss, drug addictions, ect. so I might not have time to discuss whether or not God sat down and calculated their hardships.

dealwithit.jpg

TheGunShow777
04-16-2011, 06:50 PM
Yea, it's obvious whether or not God knows all things is important, but then again, it's as obvious he doesn't want to answer my questions which show why it is. Go figure.

I don't know because I seem to be doing quite alright by not believing the way you do so......

Are you insinuating that I will somehow be lost because I do not believe God knows my personal future? Please provide proof for that if you do....

IAMRED
04-16-2011, 06:52 PM
If you think the subject of "does God determine our future" is a vital topic then sue me. I have to speak tomorrow to people who are going through divorces, job loss, drug addictions, ect. so I might not have time to discuss whether or not God sat down and calculated their hardships.

dealwithit.jpg

Let's talk about the practical significance of omniscience then, shall we? God knows that all things work together for good to those who love Him. That's in the bank because He will see to it. It's not a matter of "well, Mr. and Mrs. Smith, I know what set of x's and y's will lead to your well-being, but I can't be fussed to actually enter into the equation."

EDIT: ok, you disagree with ^^^ But surely you can see it isn't a trivial matter of no significance to pastoral theology?

lasher
04-16-2011, 06:53 PM
If you think the subject of "does God determine our future" is a vital topic then sue me. I have to speak tomorrow to people who are going through divorces, job loss, drug addictions, ect. so I might not have time to discuss whether or not God sat down and calculated their hardships.

dealwithit.jpg

When you do find the time, spend some time here. http://mbrem123.com/

I think it would be good for you, and those you minister to.

IAMRED
04-16-2011, 06:54 PM
I don't know because I seem to be doing quite alright by not believing the way you do so......

Are you insinuating that I will somehow be lost because I do not believe God knows my personal future? Please provide proof for that if you do....

No. But I also don't know on what basis you believe any Scripture is true except that it matches your own opinion.

TheGunShow777
04-16-2011, 07:06 PM
No. But I also don't know on what basis you believe any Scripture is true except that it matches your own opinion.

Much like the majority of Christians in recorded history, who did not have access to Bibles and seminary, I believe the Christian's strength is through his faith in Christ and nothing else. A competition of how many Bible verses he knows is not going to complete his sanctification. God has confirmed his word to me in many ways. When I say "his word" I mean the contents of the Bible.

I have been to Bible college to clear that up. Even there they taught about the narratives in the Bible not being the "word of God" but then somehow tried to loophole the entire work as the word of God in the end. It just doesn't make sense.

Answer this for me: When Matthew wrongly uses the name Jeremiah in 19:26 but it was really quoting Zechariah, was that God breathed? I haven't heard any scholars argue around this one.

When I was asked this question I responded with, "lol it was a typo and was either mistranslated or he meant Zechariah. He was a man wasn't he? God did not write it. The point got across though didn't it?"

IAMRED
04-16-2011, 07:12 PM
Much like the majority of Christians in recorded history, who did not have access to Bibles and seminary, I believe the Christian's strength is through his faith in Christ and nothing else.

Apropos:

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


A competition of how many Bible verses he knows is not going to complete his sanctification. God has confirmed his word to me in many ways. When I say "his word" I mean the contents of the Bible.

Apropos:

John 17:17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.


Answer this for me: When Matthew wrongly uses the name Jeremiah in 19:26 but it was really quoting Zechariah, was that God breathed? I haven't heard any scholars argue around this one.

Matthew 19:26 doesn't mention Jeremiah, so I have no idea what you want from me.

bandit1990
04-16-2011, 07:14 PM
Yeah bad **** happens and it sucks. Its hard to deal with and can seem unfair. But in the grand scheme of things, our lives here on earth are not that important. It all about getting to heaven, if your life on earth sucked, it will be that much better when you get to heaven.

Stizzel
04-16-2011, 07:51 PM
If something exists, there is a strong likeliness that something similar existed prior to its existence. In my trade, I can create logic in robotics and create random logic outside of my control. Mankind has created all sorts of variable worlds in the realm of computer programing as well. Manufacturing seeks a control and repeatable world and one without emotion. For this reason my job stimulates my mind much less than a video game does!

I am a creator. Therefore I am a god (definition of god is subjective). Logic then tells me a similar god may possibly exist. Silliness would rule out all possibilities of something else like me existing prior to me. You dig?

God can exist =/= god does exist

And if everyone/thing that creates is a god then we need to make a new word for theist deities

TheGunShow777
04-16-2011, 08:20 PM
God can exist =/= god does exist

And if everyone/thing that creates is a god then we need to make a new word for theist deities

The term is highly subjective. Thor is a god. Tritan is a god. Judaism cannot lay claim to the definition of god. I prefer the term creator and father over god in reference to my personal faith.

Stizzel
04-16-2011, 08:35 PM
The term is highly subjective. Thor is a god. Tritan is a god. Judaism cannot lay claim to the definition of god. I prefer the term creator and father over god in reference to my personal faith.

Which is why 'god' is as real as a unicorn. Ideas exist as concepts when they have defined, consistent criteria. The number 5 doesn't exist in the literal sense but we all know exactly what it means and what it represents. God existing as an idea as vague as what you describe is little more than an opinion on morality with some superstition.

BTW unlike most atheists I don't have anything against theists and as far as I'm concerned you can believe whatever you want.