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View Full Version : WS4SB or 5/3/1 for football



twister3634
03-17-2010, 04:41 PM
in your opinion which is better for someone planning on walking on next year in college?

nickloporchio
03-17-2010, 04:46 PM
ws4sb2!

TheHitStick
03-17-2010, 04:54 PM
I got better results from Wendler's program than I did for Joe (no hate Joe, I probably didn't have my diet in check)

But that's what I'll stress here. They're both great programs, if you add in a great diet, active recovery and rest, you'll see great results nontheless.

dolphinsfan270
03-17-2010, 06:50 PM
I like WS4SB. I cant understand why the motherf**k Jim Wendler prescribed 5/3/1 workouts in his football ebook and he didnt even tell you the percentages. Im not buying 2 f**king ebooks and reading both of them for one f**king routine. I hate Jim wendler so much the f**got.

DriveMyWhey
03-17-2010, 07:00 PM
i'd say 5/3/1 is more suited for advanced lifters, but if you're clueless about training and don't know how to use the conjugate system correctly then 5/3/1 might work for you, otherwise do a westside routine.

qb0708
03-17-2010, 07:33 PM
5/3/1 for football is tailored to the biodynamics of American Football. If you wish to play and excel at American Football then train correctly for it via proper biodynamical means.

qb0708
03-17-2010, 07:34 PM
I like WS4SB. I cant understand why the motherf**k Jim Wendler prescribed 5/3/1 workouts in his football ebook and he didnt even tell you the percentages. Im not buying 2 f**king ebooks and reading both of them for one f**king routine. I hate Jim wendler so much the f**got.

You can find the percentages in so many places on the internet.

qb0708
03-17-2010, 07:42 PM
i'd say 5/3/1 is more suited for advanced lifters, but if you're clueless about training and don't know how to use the conjugate system correctly then 5/3/1 might work for you, otherwise do a westside routine.

It is not directly suited for more advanced lifters. It is a very simple means of gradual overload utilizing sub-maximal and repetition efforts. Although it can be used for more advanced lifters also.

The so called 'conjugate or westside' system requires one to utilize far more intensive means (a la Maximal and Dynamic Efforts in Barbell lifts) than that of the 5/3/1 program.

Thus, we can conclude that the Westside system is better suited for a more advanced lifter and 5/3/1 is better suited for a beginner/novice.

nickloporchio
03-17-2010, 08:25 PM
Westside itself is advanced, you choose your lifts based on weaknesses its the conjugate method, knowing your weaknesses often comes with experience, with 5/3/1 and 5/3/1 for football you just do the exercises wendler tells you to.

nickloporchio
03-17-2010, 08:27 PM
5/3/1 for football is tailored to the biodynamics of American Football. If you wish to play and excel at American Football then train correctly for it via proper biodynamical means.

No offense but you really think 5/3/1 for football will give you better gains because it's better "geared" towards football, I think the results of WS4SB speak for themselves..

daveshit
03-17-2010, 08:51 PM
No offense but you really think 5/3/1 for football will give you better gains because it's better "geared" towards football, I think the results of WS4SB speak for themselves..

They do speak for themselves, when you have coach like Joe D. to customize your workouts and he exactly knows what exercises to pick. When you do it on your own, it's a different story. First you got to be familiar with westside principles, not just read the program and pick the exercise you feel like doing and do it the best way possible. That's the difference when working out on your own and working with great coach.

nickloporchio
03-17-2010, 08:56 PM
They do speak for themselves, when you have coach like Joe D. to customize your workouts and he exactly knows what exercises to pick. When you do it on your own, it's a different story. First you got to be familiar with westside principles, not just read the program and pick the exercise you feel like doing and do it the best way possible. That's the difference when working out on your own and working with great coach.

This is true, but I think everyone makes Westside Principles seem a little harder than they are, you find your weakness on your ME , and attack it, its not rocket science, and then pick accessories and switch it up..

daveshit
03-17-2010, 09:14 PM
This is true, but I think everyone makes Westside Principles seem a little harder than they are, you find your weakness on your ME , and attack it, its not rocket science, and then pick accessories and switch it up..

either way, following one or another one can get good results.

qb0708
03-18-2010, 06:55 AM
No offense but you really think 5/3/1 for football will give you better gains because it's better "geared" towards football, I think the results of WS4SB speak for themselves..

Strength Training is only one part of the sports training process in regards to physical preparation.

All programs will work at making somebody strong. In all honesty gaining strength is the easiest thing to do. Any type of structured (heck even unstructured) stress of the physiological systems of the body will cause adaptations and supercompensations.

Both of the programs we are discussing have their pros and cons. They both can be used in a multitude of ways to produce gains in maximal strength and hypertrophy of the skeletal musculature.

Personally, I subscribe to the theory that "training is efficient if the highest sports result is achieved with the least expense of time and energy". Thus, with the knowledge of both programs, my beliefs are that 5/3/1 is a more simple and less intensive means of strength training in comparison to the WS4SB template (the reasons are as I stated in a previous post).

The 5/3/1 for football program includes specific work tailored to the biodynamics and bioenergetics of American football. WS4SB is just a means of strength training, it does not include technical-tactical preparation drills, energy systems drills (alactic and aerobic), etc.

While you could construct a logistical template to fit the above mentioned into the WS4SB weekly template (as Joe D. does with his speed template), I believe this would require more time and energy in comparison to the template that is laid out by the 5/3/1 for football program.

Would there be any differences in strength gains, speed increases, work capacity, etc. specific to football? That I could not answer, it would be nearly impossible to quantify the increases in football specific performance due to the interdependent nature of the game. One could test the quantifiable means (increase in 1RM, various sprint distances, med ball throw distances, etc.), But I would hypothesize that there would be no significant difference between the two programs (of course this depends on tons of specifics, but we are being general here)

Obviously both programs will work to help gain strength and hypertrophy, while the other will increase the specific work capacity and be tailored to the biodynamics of American Football. If you are going to play football, then do 5/3/1 for Football. If you want to gain strength or hypertrophy then choose the program you deem most necessary for yourself (via your experience in strength training mostly).

federaldb59
03-18-2010, 11:56 AM
From what Ive observed the majority of people on here dont understand much about the physiological aspect of exercise. WS4SB allows you to basically design your own workout which many people do mindlessly. It seems like they just throw some exercises together and hope to get the results that they see Defranco get with his athletes. I also see either to many sets or not enough sets in the main M.E. lifts.
Id say if your a little inexperienced then do a program thats all wrote out for you.

dolphinsfan270
03-18-2010, 05:16 PM
Should you perform back off sets after every ME lift? I am a freshman in high school so shouldnt i always do back off sets bc I am younger and can handle more volume?

daveshit
03-18-2010, 06:49 PM
Should you perform back off sets after every ME lift? I am a freshman in high school so shouldnt i always do back off sets bc I am younger and can handle more volume?

I never did that, cause on upperboy day, after bench press variation I did DB bench press and that was the volume builder in my workout. On Lower ME day you always do some sort of assistance where you bring your volume up.

I like doing backoff sets on the beginning in 5X5 programs, but that is also kept to minimum, maybe 2 sets.

ZeroToHero14
03-20-2010, 01:42 PM
what is the workouts for these two, or where can i find them?

DriveMyWhey
03-20-2010, 02:06 PM
what is the workouts for these two, or where can i find them?

internet

tonester
03-21-2010, 05:53 AM
Strength Training is only one part of the sports training process in regards to physical preparation.

All programs will work at making somebody strong. In all honesty gaining strength is the easiest thing to do. Any type of structured (heck even unstructured) stress of the physiological systems of the body will cause adaptations and supercompensations.

Both of the programs we are discussing have their pros and cons. They both can be used in a multitude of ways to produce gains in maximal strength and hypertrophy of the skeletal musculature.

Personally, I subscribe to the theory that "training is efficient if the highest sports result is achieved with the least expense of time and energy". Thus, with the knowledge of both programs, my beliefs are that 5/3/1 is a more simple and less intensive means of strength training in comparison to the WS4SB template (the reasons are as I stated in a previous post).

The 5/3/1 for football program includes specific work tailored to the biodynamics and bioenergetics of American football. WS4SB is just a means of strength training, it does not include technical-tactical preparation drills, energy systems drills (alactic and aerobic), etc.

While you could construct a logistical template to fit the above mentioned into the WS4SB weekly template (as Joe D. does with his speed template), I believe this would require more time and energy in comparison to the template that is laid out by the 5/3/1 for football program.

Would there be any differences in strength gains, speed increases, work capacity, etc. specific to football? That I could not answer, it would be nearly impossible to quantify the increases in football specific performance due to the interdependent nature of the game. One could test the quantifiable means (increase in 1RM, various sprint distances, med ball throw distances, etc.), But I would hypothesize that there would be no significant difference between the two programs (of course this depends on tons of specifics, but we are being general here)

Obviously both programs will work to help gain strength and hypertrophy, while the other will increase the specific work capacity and be tailored to the biodynamics of American Football. If you are going to play football, then do 5/3/1 for Football. If you want to gain strength or hypertrophy then choose the program you deem most necessary for yourself (via your experience in strength training mostly).

Great post.

This thread has nailed two of the best training "templates" there are IMO. I see only similarities. One is offered for football while the other is more sport general until it is applied to a particular sport. Both use the conjugate method to one degree or another.

You can't go wrong using either for athletic strength development.

As a matter of fact, if you think about everything in these templates as being modular, one can pull out and replace modules pertaining to their sport needs and seasons. I think of these mobules as either strength, speed, agility, conditioning, GPP, SPP etc.

Learn the templates and the variety is endless.

Here is a great looking PDF of the WS4SB III in case anyone is interested: http://www.yale.edu/gradrugby/WS4SB.pdf

qb0708
03-21-2010, 02:49 PM
Great post.

This thread has nailed two of the best training "templates" there are IMO. I see only similarities. One is offered for football while the other is more sport general until it is applied to a particular sport. Both use the conjugate method to one degree or another.

You can't go wrong using either for athletic strength development.

As a matter of fact, if you think about everything in these templates as being modular, one can pull out and replace modules pertaining to their sport needs and seasons. I think of these mobules as either strength, speed, agility, conditioning, GPP, SPP etc.

Learn the templates and the variety is endless.

Here is a great looking PDF of the WS4SB III in case anyone is interested: http://www.yale.edu/gradrugby/WS4SB.pdf

Thanks for the words.

WS4SB is really the only program that utilizes the 'conjugate' method (that is if you are referring to Westside Method/Periodization in that of the ME+RE Lower, ME+RE Upper, DE+RE Lower, DE+RE Upper weekly template with the use of special exercises for the Squat and Bench Press, along with various supplemental/auxiliary means for hypertrophy).

Neither of these programs utilize the Conjugate Sequencing System in which there are sequential means of a eliciting a cumulative effect for a specific motor skill (i.e. Jumps to Weights to Jumps w/ Weights to Depth Jumps over a period of several months in order to achieve a high level of speed-strength)

Both programs are concurrent (train a multitude of motor skills/abilities at once) utilizing the taxonomy of strength training presented by Vladimir Zatsiorksy.