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powerman2000
03-03-2010, 02:37 PM
A harvard study released today reports that they predict, with Cap-N-Trade, gas will cost $7 a gallon.

And let's not forget what Obama said himself concerning the cost of your electricity.

HlTxGHn4sH4

Hagakure24
03-03-2010, 02:38 PM
Obama has basically given a big middle finger to the United States. Three more ****ing years. unbelievable.

all pro
03-03-2010, 02:41 PM
Obama has basically given a big middle finger to the United States. Three more ****ing years. unbelievable.

Karl Marx couldn't have done a better job himself.

Bkcmart
03-03-2010, 02:44 PM
Is Cap-N-Trade really still floating around? I haven't heard anything about it for a while. And with Climategate, I thought it would be a dead issue.

Stizzel
03-03-2010, 02:46 PM
Obama has basically given a big middle finger to the United States. Seven more ****ing years. unbelievable.

Fixt

Hagakure24
03-03-2010, 02:47 PM
Fixt

hoping your wrong brah. fingers crossed.

i think there will come a point where I'd vote for Palin over Obama. And I'm very close to that point.

gixxer0.6g
03-03-2010, 02:47 PM
With that said I think I'll open up a bike shop......




That sells handguns

Fuegoman
03-03-2010, 02:48 PM
Way to provide a source OP...

all pro
03-03-2010, 02:51 PM
Is Cap-N-Trade really still floating around? I haven't heard anything about it for a while. And with Climategate, I thought it would be a dead issue.

When this administration gets quiet about something they're about to jam it through.

Stizzel
03-03-2010, 02:51 PM
hoping your wrong brah. fingers crossed.

i think there will come a point where I'd vote for Palin over Obama. And I'm very close to that point.

I'll never vote for an establishment hack personally. Lesser of two evils my ass. Even if Obama doesn't win, whoever the GOP gives us will be as different from Obama as Obama is from Bush. Meaning we might as well call that person Bush 3.0


When this administration gets quiet about something they're about to jam it through.

Thats exactly the feeling I get.

Thats common for our government though, right? If it can't pass with majority support, just pass it quietly and don't even put it into action until a few years later when everyone has forgotten about it. We really are that stupid.

Bkcmart
03-03-2010, 02:52 PM
When this administration gets quiet about something they're about to jam it through.

Hmmmm...touche

all pro
03-03-2010, 02:53 PM
Way to provide a source OP...

http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/02/fuel-taxes-must-rise-harvard-researchers-say/

germanyt
03-03-2010, 02:54 PM
hoping your wrong brah. fingers crossed.

i think there will come a point where I'd vote for Palin over Obama. And I'm very close to that point.

at least with palin the house and senate hc bills would be thrown out and we'd be drilling in alaska. she may not be the brightest crayon in the box but she is liked enough to carry out a republican/conservative agenda with relative ease. plus she is a milf.

Fist-Of-Freedom
03-03-2010, 02:59 PM
http://thepeoplescube.com/images/Obama_StatueofLiberty.gif

all pro
03-03-2010, 03:00 PM
at least with palin the house and senate hc bills would be thrown out and we'd be drilling in alaska. she may not be the brightest crayon in the box but she is liked enough to carry out a republican/conservative agenda with relative ease. plus she is a milf.

She's supporting McCain and Perry. 2 progressives. I could excuse McCain as a political payback but when she threw her support behind Perry I kicked her to the curb. She's no different.

Stizzel
03-03-2010, 03:01 PM
at least with palin the house and senate hc bills would be thrown out and we'd be drilling in alaska. she may not be the brightest crayon in the box but she is liked enough to carry out a republican/conservative agenda with relative ease. plus she is a milf.

Yeah, and if Obama gets elected there will be no more lobbyists and guantanimo/the iraq war will be shut down.

She's an establishment hack brah. Her promises are worth less than used toilet paper.

kappakai
03-03-2010, 03:11 PM
When this administration gets quiet about something they're about to jam it through.

John Andrew Gardner is actually a secret agent for the Obama administration and killed Chelsea King to take the attention off of impending Cap and Trade legislation.

Book it!

nutsy54
03-03-2010, 04:43 PM
Is Cap-N-Trade really still floating around? I haven't heard anything about it for a while. And with Climategate, I thought it would be a dead issue.It passed the House last year. Waiting for Senate debate/vote - but they've been too busy with the fiasco of Health Care Reform.

paolo59
03-03-2010, 04:55 PM
I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that there are those in Washington who would gladly increase taxes on gasoline, to the tune of $7.00 a gallon, yesterday! Regardless of what a barrel of crude sells for on the world market. I have no doubt that Obama is indeed one of them. Cap and trade is on the Obama agenda, don't doubt it for a minute. If the president thinks that some members of his party need "shoring up" when it comes to his health care plan, he has no earthly idea what is in store for him with cap and trade! LMAO

The_Trooper
03-03-2010, 05:04 PM
John Andrew Gardner is actually a secret agent for the Obama administration and killed Chelsea King to take the attention off of impending Cap and Trade legislation.

Book it!

Strong location to rape victims location.

Would not want to live in Poway, seems like a rape every year.

ElMariachi
03-03-2010, 05:07 PM
Cap and Trade is pretty much dead but they're going to try to push it through on an incremental basis, piece by piece, slowly until you've got basically the same end result. There's too much money to be made, literally trillions banking on the passing of this legislation and it has support from Democrats and Republicans alike.

DatsunKing1
03-03-2010, 05:11 PM
Obama has basically given a big middle finger to the United States. Three more ****ing years. unbelievable.

F@#$ OBAMA.


Like seriously.

-He's done crack/weed/heroin
-Did he even graduate?
-Cap and trade wtf?
-Part of a underground organization? (Acorn)
-LIES, LIES, MORE LIES.
-Spends like a shopping spree.

DatsunKing1
03-03-2010, 05:15 PM
It passed the House last year. Waiting for Senate debate/vote - but they've been too busy with the fiasco of Health Care Reform.

no, that's what they WANT you to think. They are too busy. They will pass it RIGHT under our noses. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

3am bill passing (again) anyone?

doesn't matter whether you're in or not... they'll do it anyways.

:D

Fist-Of-Freedom
03-03-2010, 05:21 PM
With each passing day, gold is looking more and more beautiful.

TallDH
03-03-2010, 05:54 PM
With each passing day, gold is looking more and more beautiful.

As is the copper on a full metal jacket....

AC33
03-03-2010, 05:55 PM
F@#$ OBAMA.


Like seriously.

-He's done crack/weed/heroin
crack and heroin? I think that's bs, but he admitted to doing cocaine, but regrets it. At least he's honest about it, and even when he did that in his youth he still managed to get into Harvard and excel, obviously didn't effect him that much.
-Did he even graduate?
yes

In late 1988, Obama entered Harvard Law School. He was selected as an editor of the Harvard Law Review at the end of his first year,[35] and president of the journal in his second year.[36] During his summers, he returned to Chicago, where he worked as a summer associate at the law firms of Sidley Austin in 1989 and Hopkins & Sutter in 1990.[37] After graduating with a Juris Doctor (J.D.) magna cum laude[38] from Harvard in 1991, he returned to Chicago.[35] Obama's election as the first black president of the Harvard Law Review gained national media attention[36] and led to a publishing contract and advance for a book about race relations,[39] which evolved into a personal memoir. The manuscript was published in mid-1995 as Dreams from My Father.[39]


Magnu cum laude = with great honours, not just honours, which means he graduated with a gpa >3.5 from an ivy league school, which is extremely difficult to do. I don't think anyone in this forum would be capable of doing that(myself included).

-Cap and trade wtf?
wtf? Cap and trade isn't exactly extremist legislation, it's quite common in other western nations, of course America is usually slow at adopting policy shifts, it's bound to happen, although revenue neutral carbon tax with tax credits like in my province is a much better policy but harder to sell to voters in general
-Part of a underground organization? (Acorn)
bull****
-LIES, LIES, MORE LIES.
cry cry cry
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/
-Spends like a shopping spree.
Investing and taking the advice of nobel prize winning economists like Paul Krugman, again not exactly extremist economists, as well as implementing the single fastest tax cut in history
Also, your post reminded me of this:
http://z.about.com/d/pediatrics/1/5/F/N/crying_baby.jpg

AC33
03-03-2010, 06:08 PM
With each passing day, gold is looking more and more beautiful.

Not really, its dropped over a hundred dollars since peaking in late November 2009. China also is slowing down their construction projects that were part of their stimulus(thus reducing demand on commodities), the US dollar almost peaked at a 9month high against the Euro last week, and, although gold is at a 2 week high right now because of Greece situation, I'm fairly sure that the EU will bail Greece out and it will continue to decline.

Stizzel
03-03-2010, 06:08 PM
Also, your post reminded me of this:
http://z.about.com/d/pediatrics/1/5/F/N/crying_baby.jpg

Also, your post reminded me of this:

http://stutteringmessiah.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/obama-kool-aid.jpg


Obama = Bush brah. U mad?

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2009-12-02-bushobama.jpg

AC33
03-03-2010, 06:13 PM
Also, your post reminded me of this:

http://stutteringmessiah.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/obama-kool-aid.jpg


Obama = Bush brah. U mad?

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2009-12-02-bushobama.jpg
http://healium.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/obamam-lol-y-u-mad-tho.jpg

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/j/z/1/obama_superman_awesome.jpg

nutsy54
03-03-2010, 06:15 PM
http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/j/z/1/obama_superman_awesome.jpgI'm Sorry...

$7.00/gal gas isn't "Awesome". Nor is pretty much anything else he's "accomplished" so far :p

ElMariachi
03-03-2010, 06:21 PM
http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/j/z/1/obama_superman_awesome.jpg



It does take a pretty awesome individual to make W look good. I'm in absolute awe of Barack Obama's general incompetence thus far.

AC33
03-03-2010, 06:36 PM
I'm Sorry...

$7.00/gal gas isn't "Awesome". Nor is pretty much anything else he's "accomplished" so far :p

7.00/gal gas is bound to happen sooner or later, even without Cap and trade and carbon tax. Obama knows this and that's why he promised to invest in renewable energy. And this was done. He also came out in support of offshore-drilling and nuclear energy, something the right believes should be done.


Also, something you may or may not be interested in, here's a quote directly from an interesting article I read in the February 20th edition of the Economist magazine that I subscribe to:


Norman Ornstein is a fellow of the American Enterprise Institute and the coauthor of a book ("The Broken Branch") that laments the decline of Congress. So it is striking that he of all people argued in The Washington Post recently that the present Congress is set to be "one of the most productive" since the momentous 89th Congress of 1965-66, during which Lyndon Johnson pushed through the scores of bills that created his "great society".

In fairness, Mr Ornstein reaches this verdict by taking a very upbeat view of the stimulus package. This, he notes, included $288 billion in tax cuts, "one of the largest tax cuts in history", with credits for energy conservation and renewable-energy production as well as home-buying and college tuition. The package promised $19 billion for health-information technology, and more than $1 billion to test the effectiveness of health-care treatments. Stimulus money found its way into school reform, a smart grid for electricity, and expanded access to broadband internet. Had any Congress passed all these measures separately, Mr Ornstein says, it would be considered enormously productive. This Congress did it all in one bill, and also enacted other big measures, such as an expansion of children's health insurance and a broad land-conservation law. This is not the record of a paralyzed administration.


Add to that the biggest health care bill in decades and jobs bill that are both likely to pass, and I think it's safe to say he accomplished a lot in just 2 years. You may not agree with any one of these things, but separately a lot of the things he did so far are popular.

stealth_swimmer
03-03-2010, 06:42 PM
hoping your wrong brah. fingers crossed.

i think there will come a point where I'd vote for Palin over Obama. And I'm very close to that point.

So instead of supporting a fascist, you'd support a moronic fascist that thinks our nation is "on a mission from God" to quote the Blues Brothers, to fight wars?

This isn't even a case of "lesser of two evils" so much as "different evil." Palin is not just an establishment hack, which would be bad enough. She also comes off as being an idiot. That wouldn't stop her from wrecking everything with the help of advisers though.

Galvatorex
03-03-2010, 06:43 PM
well if gas ever does hit 7 dollars a gallon there will be very many low income folks in my town robbing gas stations at gun point and stealing gas

Hagakure24
03-03-2010, 06:49 PM
So instead of supporting a fascist, you'd support a moronic fascist that thinks our nation is "on a mission from God" to quote the Blues Brothers, to fight wars?

This isn't even a case of "lesser of two evils" so much as "different evil." Palin is not just an establishment hack, which would be bad enough. She also comes off as being an idiot. That wouldn't stop her from wrecking everything with the help of advisers though.

We have had a three party system in over 100 years. Yes, it is so much a factor of lesser evils. Let her be an idiot. She won't be pulling the bull**** that obama is doing that's for sure. Even if she is an echo-chamber for sean hannity.

AC33
03-03-2010, 06:54 PM
So instead of supporting a fascist, you'd support a moronic fascist that thinks our nation is "on a mission from God" to quote the Blues Brothers, to fight wars?

This isn't even a case of "lesser of two evils" so much as "different evil." Palin is not just an establishment hack, which would be bad enough. She also comes off as being an idiot. That wouldn't stop her from wrecking everything with the help of advisers though.

Lol I love how words like "Fascist" and "Communist" are thrown around so "liberally"(another word that also happens to be thrown around) like school yard insults in American politics.

Obama is centrist, he's no where near the fringes of his party or the fringes of the republican party, and in the eyes of the world, he could even be considered right of center on many issues-like foreign policy and offshore drilling.

Calling him a fascist is like calling Reagan a communist, it's childish. Now you probably will come out and say "Obama supports corporations!!", well so does every politician that supports the free market-and America has one of the highest corporate tax rates in all the g-8 nation(as opposed to my province of BC, which has the lowest in all of the g8). He favors individualism, and does not favor a one-party state, not in words or policy, and in fact he welcomes opposition views and has already been shown to implement them in the bills he supports(1/3 of stimulus was tax cuts, a lot of health care reform coming was based on republican ideas, like it or not, and it is strikingly similar to what the Republicans proposed in 1994 to counter the Clinton health care bill). I mean I could go on an on, I could write a 10 page essay if I wanted to, but really I think deep down you don't believe for one minute that either Obama or Palin are fascists, you just use that term loosely as an insult because you don't agree with either of them.

nutsy54
03-03-2010, 06:58 PM
Add to that the biggest health care bill in decades and jobs bill that are both likely to pass, and I think it's safe to say he accomplished a lot in just 2 years. You may not agree with any one of these things, but separately a lot of the things he did so far are popular.$3.5 TRILLION in new debt for this country. With nothing to show for it... except even more debt in the future. All he's doing is spending endlessly, while ramming the Federal Government further and deeper into our states, businesses, and personal lives. Believe it or not, many people don't consider that a good "accomplishment".

We're supposed to believe in all these great "investments", yet even the President's own budget projections admit the truth: This is a financial disaster. There is no real "Return" expected. Over the next decade, our smallest annual deficit will be $700 Billion.

Raping & pillaging the economy, in the name of an imaginary evil, will only make those numbers (and results) far worse.

Nor do I consider multi-thousand page, Trillion dollar bills, rammed through Congress in the dead of night, a "productive" session.

st_jimmy
03-03-2010, 07:02 PM
Question: if you believed man made global warming was a fact, would you be okay with cap and trade?

nutsy54
03-03-2010, 07:02 PM
Obama is centrist, he's no where near the fringes of his party...Where do you come up with this stuff?

Yes, he's such a "centrist".... That after a year with a filibuster-proof majority in Congress, he couldn't even convince his own party that his "Top Domestic Priority" was worthy of their votes to get it passed. At least not without a few hundred million dollars in taxpayer-funded bribes.

If you're going to define Obama as a "Centrist", you really need to stop commenting on American politics.

skinny buckeye
03-03-2010, 07:05 PM
Obama wants to make us France but without the good food or wine.


(heard a repub use that one today.... pretty good one.)

nutsy54
03-03-2010, 07:06 PM
Question: if you believed man made global warming was a fact, would you be okay with cap and trade?Probably not - because it still allows ongoing & harmful pollution, as long as you're willing to pay for it (or your customers can be forced to pay for it).

The whole concept is absurd: "This stuff is bad, but we'll let you keep spewing it into the air, as long as you have enough cash in your wallet" :confused:

ElMariachi
03-03-2010, 07:06 PM
Question: if you believed man made global warming was a fact, would you be okay with cap and trade?




Hell no, Cap and Trade won't do **** to fix the environment, the costs will simply be passed on to those who can afford them the least. Its one big wealth-boosting scheme for the uber-rich to further drain the poor and middle class in this country.


LOL at anyone who thinks that carbon trading is based on "saving the environment." It'll make Al Gore a billionaire and allow him to buy a couple new jets and "offset" the pollution they put out through "carbon credits" but it won't actually cut down on pollution itself.

st_jimmy
03-03-2010, 07:10 PM
Probably not - because it still allows ongoing & harmful pollution, as long as you're willing to pay for it (or your customers can be forced to pay for it).

The whole concept is absurd: "This stuff is bad, but we'll let you keep spewing it into the air, as long as you have enough cash in your wallet" :confused:
It does set a cap on the total amount of emissions that can be allowed.

nutsy54
03-03-2010, 07:14 PM
It does set a cap on the total amount of emissions that can be allowed.And what happens if that "cap" gets exceeded - Do we start turning off electric plants, to cause blackouts? Shutting down manufacturing, while sending hundreds to the unemployment office? Prohibiting citizens from driving?

Or will they just increase the fines & taxes...?

st_jimmy
03-03-2010, 07:30 PM
And what happens if that "cap" gets exceeded - Do we start turning off electric plants, to cause blackouts? Shutting down manufacturing, while sending hundreds to the unemployment office? Prohibiting citizens from driving?

Or will they just increase the fines & taxes...?
My guess is that it would be enforced. Still assuming that global warming is real, is there a way to cut back those emissions without causing some pain?

As I see it this issue is really a question of whether or not you think man-made global warming is likely enough to take dramatic action against it.

AC33
03-03-2010, 08:00 PM
$3.5 TRILLION in new debt for this country. With nothing to show for it... except even more debt in the future. All he's doing is spending endlessly, while ramming the Federal Government further and deeper into our states, businesses, and personal lives. Believe it or not, many people don't consider that a good "accomplishment".

We're supposed to believe in all these great "investments", yet even the President's own budget projections admit the truth: This is a financial disaster. There is no real "Return" expected. Over the next decade, our smallest annual deficit will be $700 Billion.

Raping & pillaging the economy, in the name of an imaginary evil, will only make those numbers (and results) far worse.

How much of that debt do you really think can be attributed directly to his actions or the actions of congress since 2008?
http://economistmom.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/cbpp-chart-on-bush-deficit-legacy-121609.jpg

Not very much. Also important to note that tax cuts made up close to half of the stimulus package, which coincidently is a method championed by Conservative economists and usually republicans during times of recession.



Nor do I consider multi-thousand page, Trillion dollar bills, rammed through Congress in the dead of night, a "productive" session.

Rammed through? lol did you not see the election results? The president and congress had all the political capital they needed with Obama sitting at around 80% approval rating to pass the stimulus bill in February, and there was no reconciliation needed to pass it, unlike the bush tax cuts, because 4 republican senators also supported it.


Where do you come up with this stuff?

Yes, he's such a "centrist".... That after a year with a filibuster-proof majority in Congress, he couldn't even convince his own party that his "Top Domestic Priority" was worthy of their votes to get it passed. At least not without a few hundred million dollars in taxpayer-funded bribes.

If you're going to define Obama as a "Centrist", you really need to stop commenting on American politics.

Yep, I still stand by that statement, he's a centrist. I'm assuming your so far to the right that anyone that supports anything remotely "liberal" is leftist. :)

lets see:
Stimulus:
Infrastructure investment, energy investment-supported by virtually all left economists and some center economists
Tax cuts-supported by virtually all conservative economists in times of economic downturn
Emergency State aid-center, republicans will claim this as a bail out, but any president would be in favor of it if they sat in that chair, as not doing this would bankrupt many states vital to the American economy.
Verdict: overall centrist, especially considering how little Obama needed the right to pass this, if he listened to Nobel prize winning Keynesian economist Paul Krugman, there would be no tax cuts included in the bill.

Support for Bi-partisan jobs bill-Centrist, supported by both the right and the left, Republican and Democrat, like it or not

Health reform bill-Right in the eyes of the world, Centrist in Americans politics. No public option championed by the left, many compromises included championed by the right. Extremely similar to the Conservative and Republican bill counter proposed to the Clinton bill in 1994. If you dispute that its not very similar to the Republican bill submitted in 1994, prove it.

Surge in the War in Afghanistan-Right

Closing Guantanamo bay-Left in American politics

Support and investment for alternative energy-Left I guess in American politics

Support for offshore drilling and loans guaranteed for nuclear plants-Strongly supported by the Right.

I can dig up some more but these are some of the bigger things he supports.

oh also, Running a deficit-Right based on the track record of the last 3 republican presidents :D

Blindead
03-03-2010, 08:04 PM
Not really, its dropped over a hundred dollars since peaking in late November 2009. China also is slowing down their construction projects that were part of their stimulus(thus reducing demand on commodities), the US dollar almost peaked at a 9month high against the Euro last week, and, although gold is at a 2 week high right now because of Greece situation, I'm fairly sure that the EU will bail Greece out and it will continue to decline.

Greece doesn't want to get bailed out.

r0gue6
03-03-2010, 09:44 PM
F@#$ OBAMA.


Like seriously.

-He's done crack/weed/heroin
-Did he even graduate?
-Cap and trade wtf?
-Part of a underground organization? (Acorn)
-LIES, LIES, MORE LIES.
-Spends like a shopping spree.

Is this a joke?

paolo59
03-03-2010, 10:30 PM
Is this a joke?

Sleeps in a Che Guevarra T-shirt and looks in the mirror while he's smoking Havannah cigars! LOL Not while the kids are watching anyway! He's wearing a patch now, right? Not to mention the action he gets from Hugo Chavez on his face page! LMFAO Why should the little want to be marxist wince at the obvious? I'm expecting a little chin whisker **** to take place any time now! We love our president, he's ours, and we'll malign him however the hell we like. It's our right! LMAO And just why not? He sets himself up for it daily. I've been watching politics for quite awhile now. I've never seen the likes, and that's saying quite a lot! I could go so far as to say that no modern president is more deserving of disdain as is our present one. The man is a bonified, pathological liar, but he does it well, I have to say.

nutsy54
03-03-2010, 10:59 PM
How much of that debt do you really think can be attributed directly to his actions or the actions of congress since 2008?Since we're now veering wildly off topic (shocker in a thread that tries to criticize Obama, I know...), here's my final, concise comments:

Bravo, you've found an awesome source of wildly biased, partisan propaganda. But consider this: Three years with Democrats in control of all legislation, four years of Senator Obama never voting Against a budget bill, one year of President Obama signing every budget/spending bill into law. And after all that, the constant refrain is "Blame Bush!".

Which simply proves that our Democratic "leadership" in Congress and the Oval Office is an ineffective failure.


Bringing it back on topic...
Yet some people want to give them even more, devastating control over our lives and the economy, with this brainstorm of an "Energy" bill.

frankenstein
03-03-2010, 11:24 PM
Lol I love how words like "Fascist" and "Communist" are thrown around so "liberally"(another word that also happens to be thrown around) like school yard insults in American politics.

Obama is centrist, he's no where near the fringes of his party or the fringes of the republican party, and in the eyes of the world, he could even be considered right of center on many issues-like foreign policy and offshore drilling.

Calling him a fascist is like calling Reagan a communist, it's childish. Now you probably will come out and say "Obama supports corporations!!", well so does every politician that supports the free market-and America has one of the highest corporate tax rates in all the g-8 nation(as opposed to my province of BC, which has the lowest in all of the g8). He favors individualism, and does not favor a one-party state, not in words or policy, and in fact he welcomes opposition views and has already been shown to implement them in the bills he supports(1/3 of stimulus was tax cuts, a lot of health care reform coming was based on republican ideas, like it or not, and it is strikingly similar to what the Republicans proposed in 1994 to counter the Clinton health care bill). I mean I could go on an on, I could write a 10 page essay if I wanted to, but really I think deep down you don't believe for one minute that either Obama or Palin are fascists, you just use that term loosely as an insult because you don't agree with either of them.

Obama is indeed right of center. I wouldn't call him a fascist. I'd instead say that he leans towards the economics of fascism (corporatism), which we see more and more. Prime example: the health insurance companies.

Back on topic- $7 gasoline at any time in the next 10 years would literally destroy the US economy. Would make the last 18 months look like the paradise. If they are serious about passing cap and trade, they had better start spending trillions on high speed rail.

At $7 gasoline, the Chinese will all be buying cheap gas at market rates and Americans will be the ones riding bicycles everywhere. BRB, buying a basket to put on my mountain bike.

nutsy54
03-03-2010, 11:30 PM
Back on topic- $7 gasoline at any time in the next 10 years would literally destroy the US economy. Would make the last 18 months look like the paradise. If they are serious about passing cap and trade, they had better start spending trillions on high speed rail.The taxes are on nearly all current forms of energy production - energy which those high speed trains will need gobs of (during operation, and especially during construction). Whether it's gas in an engine, or electricity generated in a power plant, those costs will still be passed on to the rail customers...

stealth_swimmer
03-03-2010, 11:48 PM
We have had a three party system in over 100 years. Yes, it is so much a factor of lesser evils. Let her be an idiot. She won't be pulling the bull**** that obama is doing that's for sure. Even if she is an echo-chamber for sean hannity.

She might well possibly do things JUST as bad but in different ways. So no, I don't see her as the lesser of two evils. I see her as the DIFFERENT of two evils.


Lol I love how words like "Fascist" and "Communist" are thrown around so "liberally"(another word that also happens to be thrown around) like school yard insults in American politics.

Obama is centrist, he's no where near the fringes of his party or the fringes of the republican party, and in the eyes of the world, he could even be considered right of center on many issues-like foreign policy and offshore drilling.

Calling him a fascist is like calling Reagan a communist, it's childish. Now you probably will come out and say "Obama supports corporations!!", well so does every politician that supports the free market-and America has one of the highest corporate tax rates in all the g-8 nation(as opposed to my province of BC, which has the lowest in all of the g8). He favors individualism, and does not favor a one-party state, not in words or policy, and in fact he welcomes opposition views and has already been shown to implement them in the bills he supports(1/3 of stimulus was tax cuts, a lot of health care reform coming was based on republican ideas, like it or not, and it is strikingly similar to what the Republicans proposed in 1994 to counter the Clinton health care bill). I mean I could go on an on, I could write a 10 page essay if I wanted to, but really I think deep down you don't believe for one minute that either Obama or Palin are fascists, you just use that term loosely as an insult because you don't agree with either of them.

Do you know what fascism is? By the sound of your post, you don't. You're talking about something when you CLEARLY don't have a clue about what you're saying. In other words, you're acting like Sarah Palin, which could in some ways be worse than acting childish.

fascism = economic control with heavy regulations (but still private ownership), subsidies to favored companies (corporate welfare), economic protectionism, and nationalism

Obama supported a 35% tariff on tires from China (a low-price tire by the way, which means it's poor people in the US that are gonna be hurt by it), wants to expand regulation and keep a heavy hand on companies while bailing out some of them from their foolish actions. Since nationalism is more of a social issue, Obama is economically a fascist. Now if you just say fascism is economic nationalism (as it has sometimes been referred to), Obama is indeed a fascist.

And as Friedrich Hayek goes about explaining in The Road to Serfdom, fascism actually originated from "the left" and economically is extremely similar to socialism and its ideas. Fascism(economically) could be simply put another way as being socialism + corporate welfare.

So actually, it makes A LOT of sense to call Obama a fascist....cus that's what he is.


And lol @ saying he supports opposing views. He lets people say their views...and then disagrees just like on CNN today when he said he disagrees with any claims that a move towards privatization of health care would be something to address costs. He's putting himself into an echo-chamber just like the right does.

Obama is a socialist if you wanna take into account more than economics. Economically - he's a fascist.

AC33
03-04-2010, 02:45 AM
She might well possibly do things JUST as bad but in different ways. So no, I don't see her as the lesser of two evils. I see her as the DIFFERENT of two evils.



Do you know what fascism is? By the sound of your post, you don't. You're talking about something when you CLEARLY don't have a clue about what you're saying. In other words, you're acting like Sarah Palin, which could in some ways be worse than acting childish.


Yes I do actually


fascism = economic control with heavy regulations (but still private ownership), subsidies to favored companies (corporate welfare), economic protectionism, and nationalism


Ok, here's where you start to veer off completely, and where its hard for anyone to take you seriously.

Yes fascism has elements of economic control, subsidies to favored companies, economic protectionism and nationalism, but your forgot to mentioned the totalitarian factor of the government. But even then, none of this has anything to do with Obama at all being a fascist, because a fascist is someone who takes all of these factors and more to the extreme. Almost every president has supported nationalism to some degree or another, but its the extremist view of nationalism that makes a fascist what he is. Its the extremist amount of economic control that makes a fascist what they are.

It's like saying, I support the minimum wage, so I must be a communist because Marx said that workers should be treated fairly and they are the drivers of the economy!!111

It's extremely flawed way of thinking, you're using the word which historically was used to describe the society of Mussolinis Italy and Nazi Germany, and comparing it to Obama's government.

fascism A political philosophy that advocates governance by a dictator, assisted by a hierarchically organized, strongly ideological party, in maintaining a totalitarian and regimented society through violence, intimidation, and the arbitrary use of power.



Obama supported a 35% tariff on tires from China (a low-price tire by the way, which means it's poor people in the US that are gonna be hurt by it)

Actually, the Chinese tire tariffs was made to appease unions, which were i'm sure as you know highly popular in Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany :rolleyes:



wants to expand regulation and keep a heavy hand on companies while bailing out some of them from their foolish actions. Since nationalism is more of a social issue, Obama is economically a fascist. Now if you just say fascism is economic nationalism (as it has sometimes been referred to), Obama is indeed a fascist.

So regulation = fascism? Liberals and even some centrists have always been in favor of more regulation. The fact is there needs to more banking regulation. Now you're saying, because Obama wants to expand regulation, probably by a small margin, that he's a fascist. One tariff does not = economic nationalism either, especially when it's done with China, both nations are constantly going tit for tat on small meaningless trade disputes like this. His state of the union speech hinted at support for new free trade agreements, and he even hinted at support to exempt Canada from the "buy america" clause.



And as Friedrich Hayek goes about explaining in The Road to Serfdom, fascism actually originated from "the left" and economically is extremely similar to socialism and its ideas. Fascism(economically) could be simply put another way as being socialism + corporate welfare.
So actually, it makes A LOT of sense to call Obama a fascist....cus that's what he is.


No it doesn't. Historians and economists would call you an idiot if you ever said that publicly. Obama is no where near a fascist and you calling him only reinforces the fact that you haven't even looked properly into the Mussolinis Italy, Hitlers Germany, and compared their leadership and their policies to the severe degree they were enforced to Obama's leadership.



And lol @ saying he supports opposing views. He lets people say their views...and then disagrees just like on CNN today when he said he disagrees with any claims that a move towards privatization of health care would be something to address costs. He's putting himself into an echo-chamber just like the right does.

Obama is a socialist if you wanna take into account more than economics. Economically - he's a fascist.

Keynesian =/= socialism. Have you ever taken an economics course, seriously? I don't know if you just hate Obama, if it's because you're from Texas, or if you just read believe crazy crap random people put on the net, why you keep throwing crazy terms around.

Cut spending, raise taxes in times of economic growth to slow growth at manageable rates.
Increase spending, lower taxes in times of economic recession. That's the basic Keynesian model, of course it's a lot more complicated then that. It does not = socialism. Liberals =/= socialists, and Obama =/= a Liberal, based on his presidential record so far, he's no where near as left as some of the liberals in the congress.


Also, if the health care bill is so supported by the health corporations, why did share prices in US health insurance companies skyrocket the day immediately after Scott Brown won the election? And why was there billions spent by insurance companies to lobby against reform?

edit: ahh, I see why you're calling Obama a fascist, a sign of desperation.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/20/us/politics/20caucus.html?_r=1&th&emc=th

stealth_swimmer
03-04-2010, 11:28 AM
Yes I do actually


Ok, here's where you start to veer off completely, and where its hard for anyone to take you seriously.

Yes fascism has elements of economic control, subsidies to favored companies, economic protectionism and nationalism, but your forgot to mentioned the totalitarian factor of the government. But even then, none of this has anything to do with Obama at all being a fascist, because a fascist is someone who takes all of these factors and more to the extreme. Almost every president has supported nationalism to some degree or another, but its the extremist view of nationalism that makes a fascist what he is. Its the extremist amount of economic control that makes a fascist what they are.

It's like saying, I support the minimum wage, so I must be a communist because Marx said that workers should be treated fairly and they are the drivers of the economy!!111

It's extremely flawed way of thinking, you're using the word which historically was used to describe the society of Mussolinis Italy and Nazi Germany, and comparing it to Obama's government.

fascism A political philosophy that advocates governance by a dictator, assisted by a hierarchically organized, strongly ideological party, in maintaining a totalitarian and regimented society through violence, intimidation, and the arbitrary use of power.



Actually, the Chinese tire tariffs was made to appease unions, which were i'm sure as you know highly popular in Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany :rolleyes:



So regulation = fascism? Liberals and even some centrists have always been in favor of more regulation. The fact is there needs to more banking regulation. Now you're saying, because Obama wants to expand regulation, probably by a small margin, that he's a fascist. One tariff does not = economic nationalism either, especially when it's done with China, both nations are constantly going tit for tat on small meaningless trade disputes like this. His state of the union speech hinted at support for new free trade agreements, and he even hinted at support to exempt Canada from the "buy america" clause.



No it doesn't. Historians and economists would call you an idiot if you ever said that publicly. Obama is no where near a fascist and you calling him only reinforces the fact that you haven't even looked properly into the Mussolinis Italy, Hitlers Germany, and compared their leadership and their policies to the severe degree they were enforced to Obama's leadership.



Keynesian =/= socialism. Have you ever taken an economics course, seriously? I don't know if you just hate Obama, if it's because you're from Texas, or if you just read believe crazy crap random people put on the net, why you keep throwing crazy terms around.

Cut spending, raise taxes in times of economic growth to slow growth at manageable rates.
Increase spending, lower taxes in times of economic recession. That's the basic Keynesian model, of course it's a lot more complicated then that. It does not = socialism. Liberals =/= socialists, and Obama =/= a Liberal, based on his presidential record so far, he's no where near as left as some of the liberals in the congress.


Also, if the health care bill is so supported by the health corporations, why did share prices in US health insurance companies skyrocket the day immediately after Scott Brown won the election? And why was there billions spent by insurance companies to lobby against reform?

edit: ahh, I see why you're calling Obama a fascist, a sign of desperation.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/20/us/politics/20caucus.html?_r=1&th&emc=th

* I don't hate Obama. I don't hate anyone. I'm just calling a spade a spade. He's a fascist. And Keynes was for the nationalization of all investment. So....yeah, I'm not sure you should be the one trying to explain to me that Keynesianism isn't socialism. Keynesianism may have some similiarities but would differ in terms of some policies. In principle, you can have Keynesian policy in a socialist country, a fascist country, a country with a relatively free market, a controlled economy, anything in between.

And when did I say that Obama's spending was socialist? I never made that claim. His support of a public option for health care and making it so that the public sector version is heavily favored is what's socialist.

His bailouts of companies is what's fascist.

As for having totalitarian government - actually ,no. That's Nazism, which is fascism plus totalitarian government and attempts at thought control. Many people confuse the two. You can be a fascist without being a Nazi. From personal experiences hearing people talk and from hearing interviews, seeing people post online, etc, I'd say that most fascists are not Nazis.

And regulation doesn't = fascism. It's a component of fascism. When it's mixed with corporate welfare to some favored industries or companies, that is economic fascism and that's what we have. It's not my fault you want to ignore things like bailouts and subsidies for some, and burdens for others.


"Actually, the Chinese tire tariffs was made to appease unions, which were i'm sure as you know highly popular in Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany "

What's your point? I don't care about people's intentions. I'm just describing the situation. It's economic protectionism, which was and is popular with fascists. Nice job trying to save face and falling flat on it instead.


As for saying historians and economists would laugh if they heard Obama being called a fascist, they would do so only if they(like you) didn't know what fascism was. Again, you're confusing it with being a Nazi. In the US, we have our own version of fascism called "mercantilism" but it's essentially the same model.

and here's an economist saying we are indeed moving in a fascist direction (i'd say it really started a big move since Abraham Lincoln)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye8rld8tLEs

ye8rld8tLEs


Now I'm no Glenn Beck fan, and I'm not a fan of Thomas Sowell's support for the "War on Terror" but as an economist, Sowell is pretty good.

ToPHeR35
03-04-2010, 11:37 AM
http://shotsonthehouse.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/obamunism.gif

VAPlowhorse
03-04-2010, 11:43 AM
So instead of supporting a fascist, you'd support a moronic fascist that thinks our nation is "on a mission from God" to quote the Blues Brothers, to fight wars?

This isn't even a case of "lesser of two evils" so much as "different evil." Palin is not just an establishment hack, which would be bad enough. She also comes off as being an idiot. That wouldn't stop her from wrecking everything with the help of advisers though.

A logical response... plz go.

Johnnybomb
03-04-2010, 11:57 AM
I hope the prices go up even higher so this way the American people will never vote on the basis of hope and change again.

Stizzel
03-04-2010, 12:00 PM
* I don't hate Obama. I don't hate anyone. I'm just calling a spade a spade. He's a fascist. And Keynes was for the nationalization of all investment. So....yeah, I'm not sure you should be the one trying to explain to me that Keynesianism isn't socialism. Keynesianism may have some similiarities but would differ in terms of some policies. In principle, you can have Keynesian policy in a socialist country, a fascist country, a country with a relatively free market, a controlled economy, anything in between.

And when did I say that Obama's spending was socialist? I never made that claim. His support of a public option for health care and making it so that the public sector version is heavily favored is what's socialist.

His bailouts of companies is what's fascist.

As for having totalitarian government - actually ,no. That's Nazism, which is fascism plus totalitarian government and attempts at thought control. Many people confuse the two. You can be a fascist without being a Nazi. From personal experiences hearing people talk and from hearing interviews, seeing people post online, etc, I'd say that most fascists are not Nazis.

And regulation doesn't = fascism. It's a component of fascism. When it's mixed with corporate welfare to some favored industries or companies, that is economic fascism and that's what we have. It's not my fault you want to ignore things like bailouts and subsidies for some, and burdens for others.


"Actually, the Chinese tire tariffs was made to appease unions, which were i'm sure as you know highly popular in Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany "

What's your point? I don't care about people's intentions. I'm just describing the situation. It's economic protectionism, which was and is popular with fascists. Nice job trying to save face and falling flat on it instead.


As for saying historians and economists would laugh if they heard Obama being called a fascist, they would do so only if they(like you) didn't know what fascism was. Again, you're confusing it with being a Nazi. In the US, we have our own version of fascism called "mercantilism" but it's essentially the same model.

and here's an economist saying we are indeed moving in a fascist direction (i'd say it really started a big move since Abraham Lincoln)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye8rld8tLEs

ye8rld8tLEs


Now I'm no Glenn Beck fan, and I'm not a fan of Thomas Sowell's support for the "War on Terror" but as an economist, Sowell is pretty good.

He's an O-bot brah. He's not really reading what you're saying, he's just responding to the typical anti-Obama talking points he's used to, because thats what he's been programmed to do.

all pro
03-04-2010, 01:22 PM
Where do you come up with this stuff?

Yes, he's such a "centrist".... That after a year with a filibuster-proof majority in Congress, he couldn't even convince his own party that his "Top Domestic Priority" was worthy of their votes to get it passed. At least not without a few hundred million dollars in taxpayer-funded bribes.

If you're going to define Obama as a "Centrist", you really need to stop commenting on American politics.

Obama IS a centrist




























If you compare him to Hitler or Stalin.


Give him time. He'll move further to the left.

stealth_swimmer
03-04-2010, 02:07 PM
A logical response... plz go.

Palin thinks we're on a mission from God to kill people in the Middle East and somehow violently impose "freedom" and democracy on them and says things like "we should be using our budget to create jobs" while at the same time saying idiotic things like "we should use our budget to support the free market".....

and here she is saying that bailouts are for creating jobs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8__aXxXPVc

L8__aXxXPVc


Imperialism? Check
Corporate welfare? Check

What more do you need to hear before you see her for what she is?

flynn125
03-04-2010, 02:38 PM
$7 a Gallon?

Thats still not the price it is over here in England. Welcome to our world....

Stizzel
03-04-2010, 02:41 PM
$7 a Gallon?

Thats still not the price it is over here in England. Welcome to our world....

I thought gas over there was about 2.5 pounds (5 dollars) per gallon?

flynn125
03-04-2010, 03:48 PM
I thought gas over there was about 2.5 pounds (5 dollars) per gallon?

its 1.20 a litre over here, I think theres 4.5 litres in a gallon roughly, so its about 5.40 per Gallon, which with the exchange rate is about $7/8 :(

r0gue6
03-04-2010, 03:54 PM
its 1.20 a litre over here, I think theres 4.5 litres in a gallon roughly, so its about 5.40 per Gallon, which with the exchange rate is about $7/8 :(

In the words of our right wing friends here....

That's cause you guys are socialist commie bastards!

Stizzel
03-04-2010, 04:37 PM
its 1.20 a litre over here, I think theres 4.5 litres in a gallon roughly, so its about 5.40 per Gallon, which with the exchange rate is about $7/8 :(

Well that's obviously because you guys are socialist commie ba....

er....


In the words of our right wing friends here....

That's cause you guys are socialist commie bastards!

Damn, beat me to it.

thorton
03-04-2010, 04:53 PM
Glad to hear it. Wish I could find the study that said 6$/Gallon would be the tipping point for massive private investment into alternative/renewable fuels. Year or two of pain to make the world better is not that big of a deal.

powerman2000
03-04-2010, 04:54 PM
$7 a Gallon?

Thats still not the price it is over here in England. Welcome to our world....

Your country is already on the brink of collapse.

liquid_fire
03-04-2010, 04:55 PM
The paper in question merely suggest some scenarios to accomplish a goal, and one of them involves gasoline potentially hitting $7 a gallon by 2020. You guys managed to take some theoretical scenario and run with it like it was the end of the world, embarrassing.

Not to mention that's 10 years away, I would love to see a "potential future" that compares the projected fuel efficiency of vehicles in 2020 and the cost of fuel at something as high as the dooms-day scenario of $7 a gallon. I would not be surprised if it broke even, or given the likely potential of widespread electric vehicle adoption, a non-issue.

I never understood how you could have people who love "gas guzzling" SUV's and vehicles but think so little of people in the middle east. Seems short-sighted and self defeating to the point of delicious irony.

LargeWill
03-04-2010, 05:45 PM
what is really troubling is this quote

"The trick is to make the gas tax politically acceptable: Put all the gas tax revenues in a fund. Distribute the fund each year equally to each adult citizen. Some will win. Some will lose. The winners will be those who use the least gasoline. The losers will be those who use the most."

a highlighted comment

Halfway
03-05-2010, 12:12 AM
LOL @ all the Canadian armchair socialists cheering for 'green power' and booing bad US gas buyers.

you do realise where most of the money to cover all the social engineering programs in Canada comes from, right?