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footballplaya90
04-24-2003, 02:26 PM
Not sure how many people are edcuated about this. Personally I never heard of it until someone gave me this URL. Check it out, history lesson.

http://www.theforgotten.org/site/intro_eng.html

doa8
04-24-2003, 05:24 PM
thats odd. i just finished a western civ 2 class and we didnt even talk about this happening during ww1.. i had no idea.

footballplaya90
04-24-2003, 07:47 PM
Yea i never knew about this either. Goes to show you how that something like this happened and we didnt know about it.

bigjay00
04-24-2003, 08:16 PM
no one ever talks about it, i had to learn it through my parents, never through elementy,highschool, or college

guym
04-24-2003, 10:12 PM
Hitler said, when planning the final solution: "Who nowadays remembers the Armenians?" Meaning, those who forget history...

footballplaya90
04-24-2003, 10:28 PM
Download the Peter Jennings special off that website. At the end it tells a quote that Hitler said. I believe it was the same one but a different end to it.

irpker
04-24-2003, 11:01 PM
There isn't any movies about the chechyan genocide, and the almost 10 million dead chinese at the hands of the Japanese before and until the end of world war 2. However, there have been several movies about the holocaust~

Sujay
04-25-2003, 06:56 AM
If there are 2 things we have learnt from history.

1) People rarely learn from history.
2) Those few that do learn from history are very successful.

SUJAY

Jimmy El Greco
04-25-2003, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by footballplaya90
Not sure how many people are edcuated about this. Personally I never heard of it until someone gave me this URL. Check it out, history lesson.

http://www.theforgotten.org/site/intro_eng.html ya not only did millions of armenians died lots of Greeks and assyrians died to,

bigjay00
04-25-2003, 09:54 AM
it sucks dude....i get very pissed off since i am 50% arminian, and my heritage is not even mentioned

Jimmy El Greco
04-25-2003, 09:56 AM
ya armenians has good heritage till the ****en fanatic muslims killed millions.

The Rob
10-28-2003, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by irpker
There isn't any movies about the chechyan genocide, and the almost 10 million dead chinese at the hands of the Japanese before and until the end of world war 2. However, there have been several movies about the holocaust~

very true.......


Award winning director made a movie about the Armenian genocide called "Ararat", it's pretty though provoking.

Tim
10-28-2003, 07:11 PM
There have been many genocides throughout history. But for some reason the only one that is widely recognized is the Holocaust of World War II. I wonder why this is.

John Promise
10-28-2003, 10:42 PM
Strangely enough, this came up in a course I took in college on the Jewish Holocaust.

The Engineer
10-28-2003, 11:18 PM
the group System of a Down is armenian and is heavily involved in getting awareness about this genocide to the public...

wolverinex2
04-04-2006, 10:35 AM
you dont even have the slightest idea about the truths. well talkin about education and believeing everything you read. Dont you even question anything? Just admit what you read?

Well you should very well know, after ww1, ottoman empire was invaded by france on the south, england on southeast, greece on the west, italy on islands and west, russia on the east.Armenian lived on the east then.

Almost one Turkish generation died in that independence battle. Turkish won but it costed them a lot like losing everyone including educated people, scholars and even high school students.
So what the minorities did in that battle although they were the citizens of the same empire?

All minorities had rights not to join army. These rights were accepted by the empire by the pressure of the west europe countries and russia.
When all turkish males joined army, your lovely backstabbers started to kill turkish women and children under the provocation of russsia. It wasnt a genocide but a banishment by the people who came home at the end of the battle. Many scientist found mass turkish graves done by armenians and opened their research to public. but no one even knows about that? I am not even talking about the terrorist group named ASALA that killed several turkish diplomats.

just explaining for the ignorant couch patatoes, there is a bloody terrorist group in Turkey, PKK, which caused the death of 30,000 people in last 20 years. There are always armenians among the captured terrorists by army.


Well from your posts, it seems you all really like reading web sites. Just make a quick search entering the key words and you will see thousands of sites about massacred turkish people by armenians. I did and this is the first link I hit.

http://www.123freehost.co.uk/sites/armenianterrorism/


It is obvious poor armenia is claiming a part of turkish land now, and for that they are trying to make powerful countries admit this geocide story. Dont waste your time, backstabbers. there is no nation which didnt taste the lose when they tried to invade our land. Every turkish person including children dies for their land without doubt.

Dont you even think for the sake of what turkish did such a thing,alleged genocide, when they were in their weakest time in their history? Why didnt they do that when they ruled 3 continents and they had no opponent power to stop them?
Turkish ruled armenians for more than 6 centuries and harmed none of them.
Doesnt it ring any bell?

I cant believe how people can be so simple.

What you do now is nothing but making turkish people hate you more. WTH you are trying to do is nonsense. In the region, where armenia is located, are more than 6 Turkish countries. Stop being dummies of some other powers and try to moderate your relationships with your neighbour countries as a nation. You behave like a tribe.


BTW, you must hear that armenians are killing now azerian soldiers on the border although they have a cease fire treaty. Armenians killed 5 soldiers in only last month, March. So stop playing peacefull angels.

While everything is profound that much, u just sit back and say
-man, there is no movie about that thing I read on the internet.

bb4life123
04-04-2006, 10:36 AM
im armenian :( and ya the genocide sucked

LethalOnGuitarZ
04-04-2006, 10:38 AM
Yeah I'm part Turkish and although I don't know as much as this guy^, every coin has it's flipside.

bb4life123
04-04-2006, 10:41 AM
basically... starting a fight here about wat happend isnt gonna do anything...i have no hate towards turkish people
just forgive but dont forget

Hartski
04-04-2006, 10:53 AM
Wow Strong Bump.

Man Whore
04-04-2006, 10:56 AM
The armenians killed thousands of innocent Turks, frankly it should be called the Turkish Genocide not the other way around. Armenians to this day are killing thousands of Azeri people for nothing more then a lust for land and greed.

rare_breed189
04-04-2006, 10:56 AM
Hitler said, when planning the final solution: "Who nowadays remembers the Armenians?" Meaning, those who forget history...


...are doomed to repeat it
**** that sucks

Ruthless4Life
04-04-2006, 10:59 AM
you dont even have the slightest idea about the truths. well talkin about education and believeing everything you read. Dont you even question anything? Just admit what you read?

Well you should very well know, after ww1, ottoman empire was invaded by france on the south, england on southeast, greece on the west, italy on islands and west, russia on the east.Armenian lived on the east then.

Almost one Turkish generation died in that independence battle. Turkish won but it costed them a lot like losing everyone including educated people, scholars and even high school students.
So what the minorities did in that battle although they were the citizens of the same empire?

All minorities had rights not to join army. These rights were accepted by the empire by the pressure of the west europe countries and russia.
When all turkish males joined army, your lovely backstabbers started to kill turkish women and children under the provocation of russsia. It wasnt a genocide but a banishment by the people who came home at the end of the battle. Many scientist found mass turkish graves done by armenians and opened their research to public. but no one even knows about that? I am not even talking about the terrorist group named ASALA that killed several turkish diplomats.

just explaining for the ignorant couch patatoes, there is a bloody terrorist group in Turkey, PKK, which caused the death of 30,000 people in last 20 years. There are always armenians among the captured terrorists by army.


Well from your posts, it seems you all really like reading web sites. Just make a quick search entering the key words and you will see thousands of sites about massacred turkish people by armenians. I did and this is the first link I hit.

http://www.123freehost.co.uk/sites/armenianterrorism/


It is obvious poor armenia is claiming a part of turkish land now, and for that they are trying to make powerful countries admit this geocide story. Dont waste your time, backstabbers. there is no nation which didnt taste the lose when they tried to invade our land. Every turkish person including children dies for their land without doubt.

Dont you even think for the sake of what turkish did such a thing,alleged genocide, when they were in their weakest time in their history? Why didnt they do that when they ruled 3 continents and they had no opponent power to stop them?
Turkish ruled armenians for more than 6 centuries and harmed none of them.
Doesnt it ring any bell?

I cant believe how people can be so simple.

What you do now is nothing but making turkish people hate you more. WTH you are trying to do is nonsense. In the region, where armenia is located, are more than 6 Turkish countries. Stop being dummies of some other powers and try to moderate your relationships with your neighbour countries as a nation. You behave like a tribe.


BTW, you must hear that armenians are killing now azerian soldiers on the border although they have a cease fire treaty. Armenians killed 5 soldiers in only last month, March. So stop playing peacefull angels.

While everything is profound that much, u just sit back and say
-man, there is no movie about that thing I read on the internet.
You're right. History is biased. History is written by people who highlights certain things and ignore others.

bearlydavid
04-04-2006, 11:10 AM
you dont even have the slightest idea about the truths. well talkin about education and believeing everything you read. Dont you even question anything? Just admit what you read?

Well you should very well know, after ww1, ottoman empire was invaded by france on the south, england on southeast, greece on the west, italy on islands and west, russia on the east.Armenian lived on the east then.

Almost one Turkish generation died in that independence battle. Turkish won but it costed them a lot like losing everyone including educated people, scholars and even high school students.
So what the minorities did in that battle although they were the citizens of the same empire?

All minorities had rights not to join army. These rights were accepted by the empire by the pressure of the west europe countries and russia.
When all turkish males joined army, your lovely backstabbers started to kill turkish women and children under the provocation of russsia. It wasnt a genocide but a banishment by the people who came home at the end of the battle. Many scientist found mass turkish graves done by armenians and opened their research to public. but no one even knows about that? I am not even talking about the terrorist group named ASALA that killed several turkish diplomats.

just explaining for the ignorant couch patatoes, there is a bloody terrorist group in Turkey, PKK, which caused the death of 30,000 people in last 20 years. There are always armenians among the captured terrorists by army.


Well from your posts, it seems you all really like reading web sites. Just make a quick search entering the key words and you will see thousands of sites about massacred turkish people by armenians. I did and this is the first link I hit.

http://www.123freehost.co.uk/sites/armenianterrorism/


It is obvious poor armenia is claiming a part of turkish land now, and for that they are trying to make powerful countries admit this geocide story. Dont waste your time, backstabbers. there is no nation which didnt taste the lose when they tried to invade our land. Every turkish person including children dies for their land without doubt.

Dont you even think for the sake of what turkish did such a thing,alleged genocide, when they were in their weakest time in their history? Why didnt they do that when they ruled 3 continents and they had no opponent power to stop them?
Turkish ruled armenians for more than 6 centuries and harmed none of them.
Doesnt it ring any bell?

I cant believe how people can be so simple.

What you do now is nothing but making turkish people hate you more. WTH you are trying to do is nonsense. In the region, where armenia is located, are more than 6 Turkish countries. Stop being dummies of some other powers and try to moderate your relationships with your neighbour countries as a nation. You behave like a tribe.


BTW, you must hear that armenians are killing now azerian soldiers on the border although they have a cease fire treaty. Armenians killed 5 soldiers in only last month, March. So stop playing peacefull angels.

While everything is profound that much, u just sit back and say
-man, there is no movie about that thing I read on the internet.
That was amazingly well written man...

Two sides to every coin...

CountryPunk
04-04-2006, 11:10 AM
I kinda like Armenians

www.HardBass.us
04-04-2006, 11:25 AM
yea armenians are cool comedians they are known for their jokes.....it sucks that it happened and they do have brochures in our college about all kid of genocides

bb4life123
04-04-2006, 11:25 AM
The armenians killed thousands of innocent Turks, frankly it should be called the Turkish Genocide not the other way around. Armenians to this day are killing thousands of Azeri people for nothing more then a lust for land and greed.

you are a fuking dumbass... go learn the definition of genocide

STILL STANDING
04-04-2006, 11:33 AM
ITs always human trying to reasons out of one another to get rid of each other in this earth.

SYRIANKID
04-04-2006, 12:38 PM
Yeah I'm part Turkish and although I don't know as much as this guy^, every coin has it's flipside.

True

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=5554735&postcount=5

From: http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/book-review.htm

Man Whore
04-04-2006, 01:15 PM
you are a fuking dumbass... go learn the definition of genocide

whatever dude, it's been almost a hundred years and this so called genocide still hasn't been fully recognised by anyone due to the sheer lack of evidence.

I'm just defending my country from these malicious lies and deceits, that's all.

A & B
04-04-2006, 02:40 PM
whatever dude, it's been almost a hundred years and this so called genocide still hasn't been fully recognised by anyone due to the sheer lack of evidence.

I'm just defending my country from these malicious lies and deceits, that's all.

I think you mean that Turkey is one of the only countries that still denies it.

I know there are two sides to every story, but I think to try and deny that this happened is just over the top.

guym
04-04-2006, 03:53 PM
whatever dude, it's been almost a hundred years and this so called genocide still hasn't been fully recognised by anyone due to the sheer lack of evidence.

I'm just defending my country from these malicious lies and deceits, that's all.

Canada has...

wolverinex2
04-04-2006, 07:34 PM
Canada has...

As far as I know, Canada and France are 2 of those only countries that recognized it. (See french population in canada)

However, it brought several disputes to their parliamentarians. Many historians announced that this is not something to be decided by politicians. They also complained that prevents researcher to do their research freely and neutrally. I myself read tens of articles about the complaints of the french historians.

Recently, the building of a monument about alleged genocide in lyon was stopped.
Anyway, I am perfectly sure France always uses the opportunities based on their benefits not on truths. France has been giving liberty lectures and human rights for decades and everyone witnessed how french cops were beating french students on the streets.

France killed countless people in Algeria with several brutal methods like gas rooms. And what France did in algeria is not less than what hitler did. Few people know about that truth because the history is written by the winner. hitler was defeated and france wasn't.

And their ministery of defence blundered saying " France killed algerians but today they are a more developed country since france existed in there".

I am not trying to blacken any country or any nation. What politicians or soldiers did doesnt always reflect the attitude of the citizens of that country. I have many nice french friends.

Besides, the alleged armenian genocide issue was discussed in American parliament and rejected.

Lets leave historical events to be sorted out by historians not politicians. As a doctor in my field, I have been educated for 20 years and I can simply say that textbooks are written according to benefits of that country. The same event is narrated differently in different countries. Besides, textbooks are usually (not always) written by dumb writers who flatter most. Read those of foreign writers who are neutral to both sides.

wolverinex2
04-04-2006, 11:19 PM
The author of the article below, Anssi Kristian Kullberg, is currently a researcher for the Legal and Country Intelligence Service, Western and Central Asia Desk, at the Finnish Directorate of Immigration.

Note: To prevent misunderstanding and misinterpretation!!!
the terrorist groups that claim they act under islam are referred to islamists by author because these groups call themselves islamist although they are not. We all know what they are doing is nothing to do with islam.


Anssi Kullberg

Numbers of articles and declarations, especially in France, slam Turkey at times when the French Parliament has just decided to “recognise the Armenian genocide” (as if historical truths would be subject to voting). The declaration of the French Parliament caused another diplomatic schism between Turkey and the Europeans who feel necessity of commemorating the Armenian victims of the tragedies that took place in the collapsing late Ottoman Empire. True, lots of Armenians were massacred in mysterious circumstances during the civil wars in the late Ottoman Empire, but so were lots of Turks, lots of Kurds, and especially lots of Caucasian Muslims who were massacred by imperial Russia and her satellites that included Armenian and other terrorist groupings acting against Turkey.

“Who remembers the Armenians”, goes the dubious sentence put to Hitler’s mouth much later, when the Soviet secret service started to create the official mythology built upon the Armeninn genocide. The goal was obvious: to destabilize Russia’s enemies, and to divide and conquer the Armenians and Turks by antagonizing the Armenians with all their neighbours — Turks as well as Azeris, Caucasian Muslims and even Caucasian Christians such as Georgians — in order to make the ancient proud nation of Armenians become a petty vassal of the great Stalinist empire.

Still before the 1930s when many mysterious changes took place in the stand and historical mythology of Armenians (following the takeover of the Soviet secret service of the main Armenian parties), there was a heroic Armenian called Anushavan Zatikyan. He escaped from a Soviet prison camp in East Karelia, organising the escape of himself and five others, some of whom were Muslims. The group crossed the border to Finland, from where Zatikyan then, in co-operation with the Finnish military intelligence, organised a supply of weapons for a united Armenian-Azeri resistance front against the Bolsheviks.


Besides Finns, they were also helped by Finland-based Russian Anatoly Toll and Ukrainian Groshko. Zatikyan co-operated with influential Armenians in Paris. What has happened to the spirit of the influential Armenian lobby in France during the time when the Diaspora became infiltrated by the KGB? Where are today’s Anushavan Zatikyans?

Quite unlike in the dubious sentence that Hitler is claimed to have said, quite many people indeed do remember the Armenians, including the tragedies they had to face in the beginning of the 20th century. But who remembers the Circassians? A large and glorious Caucasian nation was practically wiped out from the earth’s surface in the 1864 genocide — 90 per cent of all Circassians were either killed or driven as refugees into Turkey. Turkey was the only country nearby, which was friendly enough to receive the victims of the czarist terror. Who remembers the victims of the massive genocide that took place in the Balkans? It was committed by the very same Serbians and supported by the very same Russia who continue their genocide in the Balkans and in the Caucasus still today.

Turkey has had lots of problems with the Kurdish areas of Southeast Turkey, and with the Turkish extreme organizations — mainly communists (including the Maoist terrorist organization PKK, which claims a Kurdish cause, but seems to have mainly Turkish-speaking cadres) and extreme right (the Islamists). Turkey still is the only reliable vanguard of Western and European civilization against both evils, communism and Islamism, that spread terrorism and are supported and armed by Russia and her Islamic allies in the south. Yet when Turkey protects its civil order and liberties, and at the same time also our liberties in Europe, the Europeans show their gratitude by blaming Turkey for “oppression of the human rights” of the arrested communists and Islamists.

People get beaten also in French
prisons and yet France is not being kicked out of Europe because of the oppression of Corsicans and Bretons, or because of the massacres of Algerians not so long ago. What about the Cathars who were once massacred up to last man, woman and child for their Christianity being different from that of the French religious totalitarians? Should the European parliaments also put France into trial for Napoleon’s crimes, and for the bloody massacres of Huguenots (French Calvinists)? France has
still not publicly apologized for the terrible crimes she has committed against my distant ancestors. Still I do not lay revenge of this upon the present Frenchmen, and I do consider France as an essential part of our common Europe. And so do I consider Turkey, too. (And by the way, also Armenia.)

The very same French people who advocate for isolation of Turkey, have been loudly speaking in favour of Serbia and Russia — the only two countries in the post-Cold-War Europe who have repeatedly committed both genocide and armed invasions against their neighbours. Just in case you would have forgotten:
Since 1992 Russia has attacked Georgia, Azerbaijan, Moldova, Tajikistan (all these four are countries Russia herself had recognised as independent), Chechnya, Ingushetia and Dagestan. Meanwhile, Serbs have attacked Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina and Kosova. Russia supports actively four quasi-states — Transnistria, Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Karabagh - in the territories of Moldova, Georgia and Azerbaijan. All these quasi-states were established by armed invasion and mere terror regime.


Transnistria uses the Soviet flag and the Soviet anthem, and purges its Stalinist terror against the Romanian majority of Moldova. In Abkhazia, only 15 per cent of the population were Abkhazes, and the so-called civil war against Georgia meant an actual Russian invasion, and establishment of a Russian backed terror regime under the KGB officer Vladislav Ardzinba who does not even speak Abkhazian. In Ossetia, the Russian troops helped the Ossetian ultra-nationalists to drive away from their homes the peaceful Georgian (in the south) and Ingush (in Prigorodnie rayon) inhabitants. In Karabagh the Armenians occupied from Azerbaijan not only the Armenian-inhabited area but 20 per cent of Azerbaijani territory. Armenia was backed in this endeavour by Russia and Iran. Azerbaijan, like Turkey, is a secular country. The Chechens and Ingush are also moderate Sufi Muslims. The Islamist country, Iran, is Russia’s ally against them.

Although Turkey is a very cautious country which has traditionally avoided all possible confrontations with Russia — illogical, considering the massive scale in which Russia has sought to destabilise and destroy Turkey — and so she has also adopted a very moderate line in regard to her relative nations in the Caucasus and Central Asia. For the shame of the Turks it must be mentioned that they have recently prevented Chechen refugees from entering the country from Georgia, a Christian country which still seems to be the only true friend of Chechnya (perhaps besides Baltic states and Poland).

However, Turkey was one of the European countries that received most Albanian refugees from Kosova, even though Turkey is not the richest one. Turkey, however, has a long tradition of sheltering the victims of all those massacres that the European leftist intellectuals and French parliamentarians always seem to forget. Turkey has the largest diasporas of both Chechens and Circassians outside the former Soviet Union area. There are also lots of people with Balkanian background — Slavs, Albanians, Greeks. Turkey also protects the presently de facto independent Kurdistan in Northern Iraq.

France has been among the first countries, along with Russia and Syria of course, to break the UN sanctions against Iraq. As soon as the West, including Turkey, will no longer protect the Kurds, Iraq will continue the once halted genocide of the Kurdish nation, which has been even proceeded by chemical and biological weapons. That means Turkey will continue to shelter also Kurdish refugees. Why is the voice of a predominantly non-Kurdish communist terrorist organisation, the PKK with its various branches, more esteemed in Europe than the voice of the millions of Kurds who have been fighting for their existence along with Turks?

The Council of Europe decided to return full voting rights to Russia on Thursday 25th January. At the same time for instance Turkey and Latvia have again been criticised for “violating human rights” in these two democratic countries. In the case of Russia it did not matter for Europe that Russia is actually a fascist state, continuing a full-scale war and genocide of Chechen people, violence spreading to Ingushetiá and Dagestan. It did not matter that persecution of various minorities, most of all Caucasians but also other Muslims, Jews, and Russian dissidents prevails all over the huge country. It did not
matter that Russia has just abolished religious freedom, considering also many Western missionaries and aid organisations as “illegal.”

wolverinex2
04-04-2006, 11:21 PM
It did not matter that between Monday and Thursday alone, the Russian leadership had several journalists arrested or beaten, the abolishing of press freedom continues, and two high officials of Vladimir Gusinsky’s Media-Most have been arrested on dubious charges made by Gazprom, the energy giant that the Kremlin uses, now along with Itera, to terrorise its former colonies. At the same time when Putin demands Gusinsky to be arrested in Spain, he has fervently protested against the arrest of Pavel Borodin in the US. Borodin is accused of huge money-laundering and organised crime.

It also did not matter for the Council of Europe that Putin has subjected all war leadership under the FSB (former KGB), which practically governs the whole country by now. For this kind of “strong leadership,” Europe has encouraged Russia very consistently. This is supposed to be “democratisation,” which needs to be supported. What lesson is Turkey supposed to learn from this in order to be accepted in Europe? Should it solve the “Kurdish problem” like another favourite of France, Iraq, I solved the problem with its political prisoners — Saddam’ s son wiping them all into mass graves, which finally silenced Amnesty International’s protests.
Meanwhile, Serbia is claimed to be a democratic country, too, so Russia is not alone in proper democracy in this world ruled by such terrible violators of human rights as Latvia and Turkey, and such superpowers ridiculing electoral bureaucracy as the United States. Luckily democracy, especially elections, are known to work fine in countries like Serbia where one-third-part of the country just drops out of the election, or Russia, where there is no need to count votes from whole republics, since twice the amount of population has already voted there before the opening of the first voting post. Serbia is now led by an ultra-nationalist (Kostunica is more hardline a nationalist than late Tudjman of Croatia) while Milosevic, Karadzic, Miadic and other pals are still running at large.

Instead of pacifying Kosova in the only possible way (recognising its independence like was done in Marxist-dominated East Timor very recently), they are preparing for the next war that will follow when Kosova is tried to be incorporated back into Serbian tyranny. The Schicksalssymphonie in the background is played by left-wing journalists complaining of uranium bombs and spreading lies about the Racak massacre. Nobody asks why it was so important for Russia, Serbia, Iraq and China to set timing for the uranium scandal to the U.S. presidential shift. Nobody listens to the Finnish pathologists who are upset of the way how pro-Serbian propagandists are purposefully misinterpreting their results, proving massacre but not the circumstances in which the Albanians killed in Racak were shot. And nobody cares about all those thousands of Albanians who have been dug out of mass-graves in Kosova after the Serbian troops left. Where they killed by other Albanians? In that case what were the Serbian troops doing there in the first place?





Turkey is repeatedly being mobbed for keeping activists of armed terrorist organisations in her prisons. When the prisons were re-modelled — paradoxically enough, to meet the EU regulations set for Turkey — the imprisoned comrades and their fervent messengers in the West, protested that making revolution from inside the prison becomes harder if prisoners are being split into rooms with more privacy. However, the same people in the West who care a lot for the professional revolutionaries of Turkey, stay entirely quiet about all the missing students of Prishtina University, including two friends of mine, who disappeared when the first target of the Serbian “anti-terrorist operation” in Kosova was of course the Prishtina University. Has Kostunica released any of the imprisoned Albanian people who were taken to Serbia? Where are the Western protests for those people, most of whom are imprisoned only for their being Albanian?

Now we of course come to the delicate religious question: Are the most enthusiastic anti-Turkish and pro-Russian agitators in Europe generally thinking that Europe should be “purified” from non-Christians like Albanians and Chechens, and that the “noble” goal actually sanctifies the nasty means used for the goal, and that this nasty part of the task is being given to Russia and Serbia? This is namely exactly what one can read from the daily rhetoric of Russian and Serbian politicians and newspapers. When have we last read similar ideas presented by Turkey — or Albanians or Chechens — about the Islamic mission?

The traditional leftist disinformation factory in the Kremlin’ s service has nowadays been ever more regularly accompanied by the right-wing fanatics, whose leading idea is simply being against Islam, in any form. For selling their ideas, their exponents like Yossef Bodansky (popular in the US, former Pentagon official) or Aleksandr Dugin (popular in France where this right-wing extremist Russian Eurasianist is called Alexandre Douguine) are creating truly fabulous images of an Islamic conspiracy stretching from Bosniaks and Albanians all the way through Chechens, and Uzbek and Tajik oppositions to Uighurs and Kashmiris. They are repeatedly connected with Turkey (which is a secular country with relatively very low activity especially in the former Soviet dominions) and Pakistan (which used to be supporting the Taliban in Nawaz Sharif’s “democratic” era, but has grown considerably more pro-Western since the military take-over by Pervez Musharraf; also human rights have been considerably improved in Pakistan ever since), while nothing is spoken about Russia’s traditional Islamic allies Iran, Iraq, Syria and Libya.



“I would very much like to see Turkey as a federation with large regional autonomy and thus better guarantee for minority languages and cultures, but can we really demand this before countries like France and Spain have made some progress on the same issue?”



The Taliban and especially the mythical terrorist Osama bin Laden, who is being spotted around the world and claimed to possess a nuke, are very nice tools to frighten people. However, how many of us have learned that the American oil company UNOCAL and the Russian oil company Gazprom made a deal in 1996 with the consequent victory of the Taliban? Both oil companies have strong relations with state-power in their home countries, and both support the Taliban. How often do we read that actually there is a very nice concentration of former pro-Soviet Afghan leaders in the present leadership of the Taliban regime? Why have most of the Taliban’s weapons come from Russia?

wolverinex2
04-04-2006, 11:22 PM
Why do the fervent anti-Islamists of Europe attack the secular Muslims of Turkey and the Caucasus, let alone in the Balkans, where it is impossible to see who is a Muslim and who is a Christian except if you observe them going to church or mosque? There would be much better targets for their anger in the Islamic countries which are truly authoritarian, and most often supported by Russia. Although there is no “Islamic expansion toward Europe,” and no Islamic country has attacked a single Christian country for a long time (while I could count dozens of aggressions of Christian countries against Muslims from the last ten years alone), there are indeed Islamic countries where human rights are being gravely violated. Turkey is not one of them.

There might be more mess in Turkey than there is in Finland or in Austria, but France and Greece are not so far away from Turkey’s situation, if we look at objective facts. People disappear and die mysteriously in Greek prisons, newspapers of the Turkish minority are being prohibited and so on. The strong and open position of French Front National led by a former communist and torture officer Jean-Marie LePen should make any European feel anxious and hear the whispers of Vichy. France, like Turkey, has the official policy of not recognising any other nations but French in the French territory. Is France thus denying the existence and rights of Bretons, Corsicans, Basques, Provencals and all the immigrant nationalities? I would very much like to see Turkey as a federation with large regional autonomy and thus better guarantee for minority languages and cultures, but can we really demand this before
countries like France and Spain have made some progress on the same field?




Spaniards especially, with their ETA problem, should understand that Turkey is not fighting a war against the Kurdish nation, but against a terrorist organisation that is not supported by the majority of Kurds. Still, autonomy for West Kurdistan and Basque Country could help in undermining the cause terrorist groups like ETA and PKK are claiming. Russia in Chechnya and Serbia in Kosova have not been fighting against terrorism — they have fought, and used state-terror, against the secession cause of two nations that stand united behind their causes against two tyrannies. The replies of Serbia and Russia against their neighbours and minorities have been more cruel in our modem world than Turkey was against its minorities a hundred years ago. Yet Turkey is still been blamed for that, while Russia and Serbia are being praised for “democratisation."


Cyprus

As a final point I want to say something about Cyprus. When Turkey invaded Northem Cyprus in order to intervene against the pogroms started by Greek Cypriots against their Turkish neighbours, this was done with not even slight part of the cruelty
France used in Algeria not so long ago. Cyprus might have been violently occupied by Ottoman Turkey hundreds of years ago, but that was no reason for the Greeks to start ethnic cleansing against the present Turkish inhabitants of the island. At all events, now Cyprus is divided and both sides have “cleansed” their territory. This is a fact, and it should be recognised that there are two state on Cyprus. Both these states are behaving peacefully nowadays, and they are relatively prosperous. There is no reason to block them from the EU, since a settlement over Cyprus would greatly benefit both Turkey and Greece.

I need not mention, whose benefit it serves to cause conflict between two NATO countries in these critical times.

Disclaimer: I have absolutely nothing against Greece or Armenia, and I am not claiming that the Turkish government would be entirely innocent. However, I call for some sense of proportionality in exaggerated accusations against some countries and simultaneous toleration, even encouragement, of others’ horrible acts. Apparently the French authors of all the recent anti-Turkish texts have, for a moment, lost this sense of proportion in judging history and presence through religiously or ideologically biased lenses.



The Eurasian Politician
February 2001

Symme-3
04-05-2006, 01:04 AM
Woleverine, I do not understand how your article proves that the Armenian Genocide did not happen.

It does mention Turks dying during WW1, but it does not mention anything about Genocide. This article seems to help Turkey's entrance in the EU, in my opinion.

I am 1/2-Armenian and I am very well cultured on the Genocide subject. My parents thaught me only vaguely that there was a Genocide commited by the Turks against Armenians. When I was a teenager, I became very interested in the subject and started reading and learning about it. All of my sources were from neutral authors, BTW, because I did not want to read one-sided views.

It would take about 3 pages for me to lay out all the facts, so I wont. Instead let me paint you a simplistic picture.

After the Greeks, with the help of the Balkans, rebelled against the Ottoman Empire in the mid 1800s and freed their country, there was an underground Armenian movement aimed to free Armenia. Keep in mind that Armenia and Greece had been annexed to the Ottoman Empire in the 1400s.

Rightfully fearing an armenian revolution in his Empire (like the Greeks), in 1894, Ottoman Emperor, Abdul-Hamid II, ordered the massacre of the Armenian people. 300,000 people were murdered.

After his reign, the political party called Young Turks took over in the early 1900s. Since the Ottoman Empire was rapidly losing its land (Balkans, Greece, North Africa), they decided to create a Pan-Turkish nation spanning from Istambul to the edges of Mongolia and China. Why? Because central asia (north of India, East of the Caspian sea and west of China/Mongolia) is populated by Turkish speaking people and is the original land of the Turks.

Their goal was to have a Muslim and Turkish only society. They wanted to exterminate all that was in the way. To clarify that, what was in the way was Armenians (Chirstians), Arab Christians and Muslim arabs (and Kurds). Why muslim arabs? Because they were not Turkish and the Young Turks had a particular disdain for Arabs, considering the Arab world not to be "up to par" with the wonderfull Ottoman civilisation.

Anyways, bottom line, it was decided that an ethnic cleansing (ie genocide) must be put in place. Step one was to get rid of the Armenians. On top of being non-turks, they were non-muslims. Double trouble.

Around that time WW1 erupted. Back then, Armenia was divided in 2. 75% of the original land was in the Ottoman empire whereas 25% of it was in Russian soil. With WW1, Russia became communist and wanted to 1) de-stabilize their powerfull neighbors and 2) convert as many nations as possible to the concept of Communism. In their effort to do so, they enlisted the help of the "russian-armenians", hoping that their influence over the "ottoman-armenian" would pay off in screwing over the Young Turks plan. Keep in mind, Central Asia WAS part of Russia back then.

Some Ottoman Armenians rebelled and joined the Russians in hopes of freeing their nation, not knowing they would eventually be annexed to the USSR afterwards. Some Ottoman Armenians decided the fight for the Ottoman Empire. BUT, that did not change a thing. The Young Turks were determined to carry out their plan. And so they did.

On April 24th 1915, 300 of the most influential Armenian men were imprisoned and killed in Istambul. After that, the population of all of the major Armenian cities in the Ottoman Empire was deported. Deportation meant that the Ottoman army would come into an armenian village and force the population to evacuate their homes, under the pretext that the Russian army was gaining ground, and start walking towards Aleppo (northern Syria). Convoys consisting of armenian families had to cross the desert under the burning sun to reach Aleppo and were escorted by Turkish soldiers. Some witness accounts recount that some convoys started at 5-6000 people and ended up with 100 people. What happened to the other 4900-5900 humans in those convoys? Killed, raped, dying of heat, dying of thirst, dying of
hunger.............


The Young Turks did want to eradicate the Armenians. It IS a fact. If it wasn't, answer these 4 questions:

1) Why do Balkans, Greeks, Eastern Europeans, Armenians, Kurds, Lebanese, Syrian, Palestinian, Egyptians, Tunisians and Algerians hate Turks to this day for having unjustly ruled, taxed and massacred their people if it was not true?

2) Did you know that a young Armenian man did a 3 month stakeout on Talaat Pasha (head of the Young Turks) in Germany in the 1920s? He killed him in front of witnesses and was arrested on the spot. A German court acquitted him on the basis that he had psychological stress because the ordering of Talaat Pasha caused the death of his family; father, mother, sisters and brother. If a foreign court acquitted him, thats good enough for me.

3) Why was the Young Turks party ousted after WW1 by the 1st leader of modern day turkey if they were such nice boys?


Gimme a break, it happened. Accept it.

PS: More than 2 countries have accepted the Genocide as a fact

From Wikipedia:

Countries officially recognizing the Armenian genocide include Argentina, Armenia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Cyprus, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Lebanon, Lithuania, The Netherlands, Poland, Russia, Slovakia, Sweden, Switzerland, Uruguay, Vatican City and Venezuela.


For more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide#The_Position_of_International_Co mmunity

wolverinex2
04-05-2006, 05:11 AM
I will explain everything else but first would like to answer your questions.


You said, It does mention Turks dying during WW1, but it does not mention anything about Genocide. This article seems to help Turkey's entrance in the EU, in my opinion.

I have posted this article to show that how some countries are against Turkey in terms of not only alleged armenian genocide but also some other areas. This shows the general attitutes of these countries against muslim Turkey. I thought an avarage smart person can conclude that anyone having this attitude wouldnt miss the opportunity of accepting genocide story, without knowing whether it really happened or not.
Besides, in all of these countries, it was accepted by voting (quite funny to vote whether something happened in the past or not)

In ottoman empire, The nations which had major population in some areas had self autonomy/ self government to keep their own customs, religions, education and language. Take a look at countries ruled by ottoman for centuries. none of them converted their religion or none of them speaks Turkish. And look at india ruled by england less than a century, they speak english like their own mother language, the education language is english. Or former soviet unions, most of them lost their belief and most of them speak russian like their native language. When it comes to armenians in ottoman empire, they were not majority even in the cities that had highest armenian population when compared to other cities. So this kind of self government application wasn't applied to the armenians. Although it has no evidence, it is persistently exaggarated that millions of armenian died.

I am asking how ottoman empire could fear armenians could get a free country in that region while their population was less than one tenth of turkish population in that region? And because of that fear, they ordered such a ridiculous massacre? That doesnt make any sense. Greeks got their freedom cos they had a country to set free.

Besides during the course of the history, the existence of the armenians in that region never went off beyond a feudalism under the influence and rule of mongolians, persians, romans, byzantines and ottomans. Armenians never had a govenrment or empire there. No one can deny this.


You professionally try to provoke by saying ottoman tried to eradicate armenians along with arabs, and kurds.

Ottoman was not a national empire but an ummet empire (which means an empire based on religion and owned by all muslims). When ottoman defeated the navies of france, england and australia on Canakkale strait and then their land forces, tens of thousands of arabs and others from different muslim nations died with hundreds of thousands of Turkish and kurdish soldiers in ottoman army. What the hell are you trying to claim? Anyone who goes to graveyard of the soldiers in that city can see hundreds of names of arabian and other muslims who came and joined ottoman army from syria to pakistan and finally died in those battles.

And volunteer kurdish militias fought against russians on the east and died.


1) Why do Balkans, Greeks, Eastern Europeans, Armenians, Kurds, Lebanese, Syrian, Palestinian, Egyptians, Tunisians and Algerians hate Turks to this day for having unjustly ruled, taxed and massacred their people if it was not true?

In my previous post I already stated how many people from balkans imigrated to Turkey. Do you think people hating Turkey would come to Turkey? Did you know people met Turkish soldiers in UN cheering like children in Bosnia? At my bachelor university, my friends from balkans often expressed they wanted to stay in Turkey forever.

I accept we have relationship problems with greeks and armenians.

I live in japan and my friends from algeria and Tunus always use turkish airlines to go home and they die to spend a few days in Turkey between transit flights. They even didnt change the turkish names of the streets in their countries. I often have to translate what many turkish names they saw in their countries mean whenever they remember. Although they dont know what they mean, they even dont change those names.

this is very important. How can you dare to blacken kurdish people? I am half Kurdish and half Turkish. My mom is kurdish and his brother was killed by terrorist group PKK while he was defending his country in special operation team as a soldier. We are proud of him. I wish one day I will also die for such a blessed reason. You cannot attribute the feelings of a few sick minded people to every kurdish person. There are more than 10 millions of kurdish people in Turkey, if they all tought as you said, the political party, namely DTP and previously HADEP and DEHAP, supporting the terrorist group PKK would be the second party in turkish parliament. It got less than 0.1% of the votes.

2) Did you know that a young Armenian man did a 3 month stakeout on Talaat Pasha (head of the Young Turks) in Germany in the 1920s? He killed him in front of witnesses and was arrested on the spot. A German court acquitted him on the basis that he had psychological stress because the ordering of Talaat Pasha caused the death of his family; father, mother, sisters and brother. If a foreign court acquitted him, thats good enough for me.

Not only Talaat Pasha was killed, countless Turkish politicians were murdered. You claim they weren't killed by an organised terrorist group but by individuals? you deny the existence of Armenian terrorist group ASALA (Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia) and their acts?
They would be dissappointed with these words if they heard that. An armenian denies what they did for armenia? How upset they would be.


3) Why was the Young Turks party ousted after WW1 by the 1st leader of modern day turkey if they were such nice boys?

Young Turk movement started when ottoman empire sent some students to europe to take their education system and developments to ottoman empire for modernasition. However, the only thing these students brought to Turkey was european culture which was not compatible with Turkish culture then. Other than their several political mistakes, their life style and ideas didnt match with Turkish people.

The first Turkish leader Ataturk who was also leading commander of Turkish people in all last battles had to remove them to reform turkish govermental system according to need of people. Who said the young Turks were nice boys. It is also a lie like that of they ordered armenian people to be killed.


These are the answers for your questions. I am gonna post what really happened in 1915 soon.


PS: I never said canada and france are the only 2 countries. Copying and pasting what I said.

As far as I know, Canada and France are 2 of those only countries that recognized it

By saying "only" I wanted to refer to that the number of the countries twhich accepted it is too small.
Sorry for my poor english

wolverinex2
04-05-2006, 07:08 AM
Well it is time to explain what happened in 1915 referring to the sources.

First of all before talking about the event it is better to explain some other facts.

Armenians could only establish faudalist system but never an empire or government under the influence and rule of mongolians, persians, romans, byzantines and ottomans. (see reference 9).

In ottoman empire, the total population of the armenians were between about 1,056,000 and 1,595,450. (see ref 2, ref 6-page 230 and ref 8)

I already pointed out the self government system that took place in ottoman governing and the nations that kept all their values are the best proves of this. Armenians didnt have this system because they were never the mojority in any city (see ref 5-page 183 and ref 1-page 37).

Armenians found the terrorism the only way for freedom (see ref 5).


When ottoman empire joined ww1 with axis powers, russian army entered Anatolia (asian part of Turkey today). 150.000 of volunteer armenian troops that were deceived with the promise of freedom by England, france and russia joined russian armies. At the same time, on the east, with the support of the armenians who already settled in the region, between 40,000 and 60,000 armenians started to kill turkish and other muslim people by guerilla operations and attacked the ottoman soldiers on the line from back. (see reference 10 and 11)

The muslim residents on the region started to move into middle anatolia escaping from armenian attacks. As a consequence of the reaction of the Turkish and muslim folks against armenian terrorism, a civil war started. To remove this unrest, ottoman empire decided to relocate armenians moving them to lebanon, iraq and syria which were ottoman lands then. The biggest loss of armenian people is because of the war between settlers of these regions and armenians, some diseases and famine.
And then, collaborating with french army, armenians started to incredbly harass the people in southeast region of anatolia given to france by sevr treaty. In all these conflicts, between 2 and 2.5 millions ottoman turks and muslims died excluding soldiers. (see ref 2).

In the cities of Bitlis, erzurum, sivas, adana, maras, halep where armenian population was high enough were killed 1,040,376 of muslim/turkish.
(see ref 2)

The correpondance between 1915-1923 clearly shows that the decision of banishment of armenians was not about politics but military and domestic safety. (see ref 3)
It is impossible to infer genocide from any of the documents (see ref 3 and 7). And it is nothing more than armenian provacations and their effort to show the truths different.


Anyone who follows armenian newspapers is expected to know that armenians have a plan formed of 4 stages.

Stage1: to force Turkey to accept that it wasnt a civil war initiated by armenians but a genocide.
Stage2: To make Turkey apologize
Stage3: To make Turkey pay a compensation to living armenians
Stage4: Taking east and south east anatolia region from Turkey and establishing the big armenia.


this plan has been persistently applied in all around the world since 1920. Most of armenians know that and they never question this order.

The description of the genocide described by professor R. lemkin is
a) the intention of a government to eradicate a race or group living under this government
b) the existence of a policiy about this intention
c) a clear command to apply this policy

Do you have any proof or document that proves ottoman had this policy?

Do you have any proof or document that proves ottoman commanded this policy?

As I said before, armenia behaves like a tribe rather than a nation. Instead of moderating your relationship with other countries, your warlike attitude results in deaths of azerian soldiers on the border right now while you both countries have a cease fire treaty. While armenia even cannot afford the main needs of the public, Azerbaijan having huge oil, gas and mine sources is a developing country in the region. 20 years from now, armenia will lag behind and russia is always together with the strong ones.

There is no need to explain that because of your greed, how nonsense you have mess with Turkey that is the fastest growing economy of the world in 2005 with 7.66 % economical grow.
It was Turkey despite all your accusations that helped armenia in 1995 sending food and wheat.

Be wise(absolutely not a threat but an advise. )



References,


1 - Armenia on the Road to Independence, by Richard Hovanesian, UCLA
historian; UC Press, Berkeley and Los Angeles 1967.
2 - Muslims and Minorities: The Population of Ottoman Anatolia and the end
of the Empire, by Justin McCarthy, A professor of history at the University
of Louville; New York University Press, New York, 1983.
3 - Ermenilerce Talat Pasa'ya Atfedilen Telgraflarin Gercek Yuzu,(the real face of the telegraphs attributed to Talaat Pasha by Armenians) Sinasi Orel ve Sureyya Yuca; basim: Turk Tarih Kurumu, Ankara, 1983.
4 - The Armenian Issue in Nine Questions and Answers, by Foreign Policy
Institute; Ankara 1982
5 - The Armenian Revolutionary Movement., by Louise Nalbandian, A permanent
research associate in the Near Eastern Center, UCLA, and proffesor at
California State University, Fresno
6 - Armenia: the Survival of a Nation, by Christopher Walker, New York, St.
Martin's Press, 1980.
7 - Documents, Volume 1 nad Documents on Ottoman-Armenians, published by
the Directorate General of Press and Information of the Republic of Turkey.
8 - History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey, by Stanford J. Shaw
and Ezel Shaw, Cambridge University Press, London and New York, 1976-1977.
9 - The Armenian Issue in Nine Questions and Answers, by Foreign Policy
Institute, Ankara, 1982.
10 - Comentaries - a forum-in-transcript- by Donald Webster, 1985, on The
World Council of Churches' Background Information, 1984/1, of the Commission
of the Churches on International Affairs entitled ARMENIA: the continuing
tragedy.
11 - Caucasian Battlefields: a history of the wars on the Turko-Caucasian
borders, 1828-1921, by W.E.D.Allen, a scholarly British specialist, and Paul
Muratoff; Cambridge, at the University Press, 1953.

A & B
04-05-2006, 11:18 AM
How pathetic it is that people still deny things like this.

It would be like Russians denying that Stalin ever starved any Ukranians. Or like how some Japanese deny what happened in Nanjking.

Just own up to your **** and move on.

wolverinex2
04-05-2006, 11:56 AM
How pathetic it is that people still deny things like this.

It would be like Russians denying that Stalin ever starved any Ukranians. Or like how some Japanese deny what happened in Nanjking.

Just own up to your **** and move on.

Well you must be dissappointed with finding out there is not even a weak chance to make turkish people accept it after all those fake efforts.
I could have simply provoked here based on what I learnt from my parents like you. It wouldnt be fair to cheat people who dont know a lot about this event.

If you can still come up with new things here after reading all those facts written by proffessors in high impact universities, all I can say is that this is nothing but brainwash.

Admit that armenians were never as wealthy and praised as , and will never be, they were in ottoman empire before their betrayal.

Armenians were named as "Tab'a-yi Sadika" which means "loyal society" in ottoman empire.
We were lately learnt with misery we were wrong.

PS: I dont know what russians or stalin would deny. Ask russian puppets not me.

A & B
04-05-2006, 01:32 PM
People don't like to talk about, or remember nasty secrets from their past. So within that community, there will always be attempts to purge it from history.

The rest of the world acknowledges what was done. It is you who continue to deny it.

Like I said, the Japanese still deny most of what they did during the second Sino-Japanese war... but that doesn't mean the rest of the world doesn't know exactly what they did.

wolverinex2
04-05-2006, 06:35 PM
People don't like to talk about, or remember nasty secrets from their past. So within that community, there will always be attempts to purge it from history.

The rest of the world acknowledges what was done. It is you who continue to deny it.

Like I said, the Japanese still deny most of what they did during the second Sino-Japanese war... but that doesn't mean the rest of the world doesn't know exactly what they did.

It is you, not us, who dont accept the truths in the past as well as the ones now. I showed you the damn sources from neutral academicians that show how it really is and you still say the rest of the world acknowledges.

There are 192 countries in the world. And only a few ones in which armenian lobbies are strong enough and which have some hard feelings against Turkey for some reasons recognised that. You call this the world acknowledges that??

I live in japan and no japanese denies but avoids talking about what they did because they are ashamed.

Morover, stop comparing the events to each other. What japanese or butcher communists did during their revolutions are not the events to compare to this alleged lies. You are trying to blacken a nation which ruled one third of the world for centuries fairly.

When galileo claimed the world was spherical he was about to be executed. All world believed it was flat. So it means the world was flat????

Sooner or later, everyone will find out the deceptiveness of this plot which has been planned and applied to an innocent nation by their backstabbers when the wrecked human being opens his eyes and mind.

PS: I am really tired of replying your bul****s. I have a life and work to be done.

Symme-3
04-05-2006, 08:37 PM
Your example of saying how can Balkans be happy to live in Turkey if Turkey did in fact slaughter them is completely retarded.

Here is a similar example to what you are saying: The guy who owns the Mercedes Benz dealership in my area is jewish and so are most of his clients. Therefore, since he bases his livelihood on the sale of GERMAN cars, that means he loves German people and the holocaust never happened. Pathetic point you have.

Listen, you are Turkish, you were brought with fake history. Im not here to say turks are evil people that should be killed. I only said that turks DID commit ethnic cleansing against the Armenians.

And I take great offense that you say Armenians behave like a tribe. Sorry, not to be an a-hole but I think the Kurds are the ones that behave like a tribe, they dont even have a country.

Peace.

A & B
04-05-2006, 09:12 PM
It is you, not us, who dont accept the truths in the past as well as the ones now. I showed you the damn sources from neutral academicians that show how it really is and you still say the rest of the world acknowledges.

There are 192 countries in the world. And only a few ones in which armenian lobbies are strong enough and which have some hard feelings against Turkey for some reasons recognised that. You call this the world acknowledges that??

I live in japan and no japanese denies but avoids talking about what they did because they are ashamed.

Morover, stop comparing the events to each other. What japanese or butcher communists did during their revolutions are not the events to compare to this alleged lies. You are trying to blacken a nation which ruled one third of the world for centuries fairly.



So you claim that only nations in which there is a "strong Armenian lobby" and that have "hard feelings" against Turkey recognize this event? Then I will present to you a short list of some bodies who do recognize it.

Some international bodies:

- European Parliment
- Council of Europe
- UN sub-commission on prevention of discrimination and protection of minorities.
- World Council of Churches
- Turkish Human Rights Organization
- League for Human Rights
- The International Association of Genocide Scholars: An organization of the worlds most foremost experts on genocide unanimously and formally recognize it as "undeniable".

That's about as firm as it gets IMO. Are you claiming that these bodies have it out for Turkey for some reason?

Some of the countries:

- Argentina
- Austria
- Belgium
- Canada
- France
- Germany
- Greece
- Italy
- Lebannon
- The Netherlands
- Poland
- Russia
- Sweden
- Switzerland

Do all these nations have a hate on for Turkey?

The US and UK don't use the word "genocide" to describe these events, but this might have something to do with their strong ties with Turkey. And although there is no federal recognition of a "genocide", 39 of the 50 US states recognize it as genocide.

Here's something from wiki:


Turkey has drafted laws like Article 301 that state "A person who explicitly insults being a Turk, the Republic or Turkish Grand National Assembly, shall be imposed to a penalty of imprisonment". This law has been used, for example, to bring charges against writer Orhan Pamuk for stating that "Thirty thousand Kurds and a million Armenians were killed in these lands and nobody but me dares to talk about it". [22]

On Tuesday 7 February 2006 the trial of five journalists accused of insulting the country's courts opened. The five are on trial because they critisised a court order to shut down a conference in Istanbul about the mass killing of Armenians by Turks during the Ottoman Empire. The case was ajourned until 11 April. If found guilty the journalists face prison terms of up to 10 years. The trial is seen as a test case between Turkey and the European Union (EU) which insists that Turkey must allow increased rights to free expression as part of the negotiations on EU membership. [23]


You accuse me of trying to "blacken a nation". I have no interest in Turkey. But "Turkey" did not rule 1/3 of the world. Turkey is not the Ottoman Empire. Iran is not the Persian Empire. Italy is not the Roman Empire. Germany is not the Holy Roman Empire... You seem nostalgic to me.

Why would I care to "blacken" a nation? I could care less. But I know some history, and I know about the 1,000,000+ Armenians who were killed. Denying this event is no different than any other historical revisionism which is practices by the Russians, Japanese and others, who try to deny or downplay their own attrocities. It happens because people don't like to remember nasty things about their own history, like I said.



When galileo claimed the world was spherical he was about to be executed. All world believed it was flat. So it means the world was flat????


Galileo did not face pressure because he claimed the world was round. Everybody knew that the earth was round in the Middle Ages, the Greeks knew this in the 3rd century BCE. He advocated the Copernican model of the Universe as opposed to the Aristotelian one. (ie. the earth revolves around the sun and is not at the center of the universe, but is "close to it". The existing Ptolemaic-Aristotelian theory however also revealed the earth to be round.)



Sooner or later, everyone will find out the deceptiveness of this plot which has been planned and applied to an innocent nation by their backstabbers when the wrecked human being opens his eyes and mind.


Innocent nation? First of all, no nation is innocent. Second, are you also going to try and claim that Turkey doesn't abuse the Kurds? That Turkey hasn't murdered thousands, tens of thousands of it own Kurdish population?



PS: I am really tired of replying your bul****s. I have a life and work to be done.


May I ask... I don't know if you answered this already... But are you of Turkish extraction? That would explain why you feel that poor innocent Turkey was "betrayed" and this is all fabricated to smear Turkey's good name.

A & B
04-05-2006, 09:27 PM
You know what's funny...

Wikipedia has denying the Armenian genocide on their "historical revisionism" page, along with holocaust denial.

Symme-3
04-05-2006, 09:50 PM
I guess even the few surviving witnesses (100+ y/o) are lying about the genocide too, huh?

I guess my great-grandparents who were forced out of Turkey (Dort-Yol, next to Moussa Dagh and Iskenderun, if you know where it is) where they had acres upon acres of land were lying to my grandfather and father as well when they explained to them why they were refugiees in Lebanon....

That explains everything, everyone who were somehow in that situation are liars.

Wolverine, open a book that wasn't published in Turkey or something.

Modern-day Turkey might be an amazing country, I dont know and I dont care. But, the Ottoman Empire was ruled by savages and the whole world knows it. Their favorite method of execution was impalement.

Being half kurdish, you, out of all people, should know how your people was massacred by the Ottoman Empire's rulers as well.

Anyways, you're right, this subject has been debated for 90 years and still, the perpetrators are in denial or are lying. Believe whatever you want, but don't try change my mind, or should I say, my knowledge

wolverinex2
04-06-2006, 01:47 AM
Your example of saying how can Balkans be happy to live in Turkey if Turkey did in fact slaughter them is completely retarded.

Here is a similar example to what you are saying: The guy who owns the Mercedes Benz dealership in my area is jewish and so are most of his clients. Therefore, since he bases his livelihood on the sale of GERMAN cars, that means he loves German people and the holocaust never happened. Pathetic point you have.

Listen, you are Turkish, you were brought with fake history. Im not here to say turks are evil people that should be killed. I only said that turks DID commit ethnic cleansing against the Armenians.

And I take great offense that you say Armenians behave like a tribe. Sorry, not to be an a-hole but I think the Kurds are the ones that behave like a tribe, they dont even have a country.

Peace.
First of all, I am not trying to offend anyone but in this kind of profound conversation it seems impossible not to.

Well I can say the same thing for your example about mercedes. Pathetic point. This is not trade or machines or devices. Things and people are not the same, Living in a country means living with the people of that country, living in that culture, traditions, customs etc. You cannot live in a country whose people you hate.

As you have right to say Turkish people did evil things I have right to say the opposite. And You cannot call this fake history just because you don’t believe it. I have already showed you a bunch of reliable sources of prestigious people. I have nothing to say if you still call this fake history.

Why I say Armenia still behaves like a tribe is because you still don’t act like a modern country. Today Armenian soldiers fired azerian soldiers on the border again. Despite the cease-fire treaty. Fortunately there is no death. What are you trying to do? More land? We are in 2006. Borders are already drawn, countries are already recognized. There are no empires anymore, no hordes, no crusades.
Anyone who checks Armenian and Azerbaijan maps can easily see the oddity. . Although Nahcivan is Azerbaijan land, there is no land connection between main azari land and nahcivan. Armenia separates them. As if it is not enough you still want karabakh. You went there from Anatolia and you want some part of Turkish land claiming it is original Armenian land. So for what reason on God’s green earth do you still claim land on azarbaijan lands?

PS: Kurdish people have a country. Turkey.

One Man Army
04-06-2006, 01:50 AM
First of all, I am not trying to offend anyone but in this kind of profound conversation it seems impossible not to.

Well I can say the same thing for your example about mercedes. Pathetic point. This is not trade or machines or devices. Things and people are not the same, Living in a country means living with the people of that country, living in that culture, traditions, customs etc. You cannot live in a country whose people you hate.

As you have right to say Turkish people did evil things I have right to say the opposite. And You cannot call this fake history just because you don’t believe it. I have already showed you a bunch of reliable sources of prestigious people. I have nothing to say if you still call this fake history.

Why I say Armenia still behaves like a tribe is because you still don’t act like a modern country. Today Armenian soldiers fired azerian soldiers on the border again. Despite the cease-fire treaty. Fortunately there is no death. What are you trying to do? More land? We are in 2006. Borders are already drawn, countries are already recognized. There are no empires anymore, no hordes, no crusades.
Anyone who checks Armenian and Azerbaijan maps can easily see the oddity. . Although Nahcivan is Azerbaijan land, there is no land connection between main azari land and nahcivan. Armenia separates them. As if it is not enough you still want karabakh. You went there from Anatolia and you want some part of Turkish land claiming it is original Armenian land. So for what reason on God’s green earth do you still claim land on azarbaijan lands?

PS: Kurdish people have a country. Turkey.


Wow strong ignorance

wolverinex2
04-06-2006, 03:01 AM
A n B.
I cannot quote your post due to its length. I will try to discuss with you this way through the order of your post.


First, thank you very much for supporting my saying that there are 192 countries in the world and only a few ones recognized it. Well maybe not all of those countries have a direct hate against Turkey but most of them don’t have sympathy against Turkey too. Hell !! Turkey is Muslim and Armenia is Christian. And all those countries are Christian except one.
I still cannot comprehend that based on what did a country that even doesn’t have proficient academicians to judge this historical event recognize such a thing?


the conference in Turkey.
Yea those guys faced trial because they broke the rules. Can you say it is nonsense that someone was put in jail in Singapore because he smoked on the street? Very simple. Every country has its own rules to maintain its stabilization.
A few persons cannot decide on the behalf of all Turkey citizens. It is politicians elected by citizens who should make this decision. If my people don’t accept something, you cannot do that thing in their country. That is simple that much. But why you don’t want to understand is because you don’t think. Can you imagine the mess if that conference was held in Turkey? Can you imagine how people would be mad with those people who hold that conference? Can you imagine the events? Don’t you understand we don’t accept your alleged genocide story? So WTF are they trying to hold that conference in Turkey?

Recently, some powers are trying to drag Turkey into a mess like paying children to make them stone police and shops on the streets, make them revolt. Can you believe that a 6-year-old kid whose family is unaware of where he is is stoning the police because of his mission? Fortunately Turkey could dodge those plots. It was later unveiled and proved that all those kids were paid by some people not described.


Is Turkey Ottoman?
I don’t say we are great hun empire, or European hun empire, or gokturk empire all of which, although, were big Turkish empires. So don’t compare Persians or romans to Ottomans. I say we are descendants and continuation of Ottoman Empire because we have living people who lived in Ottoman Empire rule as well. I say so because we paid depths of Ottoman Empire. I say so because we still address them as our ancestors. I say so because most of our grandfathers died in Ottoman Army. I say so maybe because we have never been ruled by any other nation. And every Turkish empire continued its way as continuation of the previous one. I say so because we did ruled one third of the world fairly.

You can accuse Ottoman Empire of several things but it was then after Ottoman empire collapsed, the balance of the world changed and humanity met most bloody wars counted with millions and named as world wars.

I referred being innocent to being innocent on this matter. Based on my knowledge gotten from long years of researches and reliable neutral sources, I strongly believe Turkish people died in that civil war as many as Armenians. It was certainly not a genocide but a civil war initiated by Armenians due to freedom promise made by other countries. That is why I call Turkish people innocent on this matter.

You are really pathetic. What kinds of smears are you gonna load on us after that? When did Turkey kill tens of thousands of Kurdish people? You all know wrong about the general thought of Kurdish people in Turkey. There are about 15 millions Kurdish people in Turkey and every citizen of Turkey has the same rights. I already said I am half Kurdish and half Turkish. My mom’s family is wealthier and has more facilities than that of my father’s. The people you saw in Europe or anywhere out of Turkey are sick minded people. They represent less than 0.1 % of Kurdish population. I believe there is also Turkish feeling that way. It is not about being Turkish or Kurdish. Dont try to give me lecture about ethnic situation in my own country.

wolverinex2
04-06-2006, 03:39 AM
I guess even the few surviving witnesses (100+ y/o) are lying about the genocide too, huh?

I guess my great-grandparents who were forced out of Turkey (Dort-Yol, next to Moussa Dagh and Iskenderun, if you know where it is) where they had acres upon acres of land were lying to my grandfather and father as well when they explained to them why they were refugiees in Lebanon....

That explains everything, everyone who were somehow in that situation are liars.

Wolverine, open a book that wasn't published in Turkey or something.

Modern-day Turkey might be an amazing country, I dont know and I dont care. But, the Ottoman Empire was ruled by savages and the whole world knows it. Their favorite method of execution was impalement.

Being half kurdish, you, out of all people, should know how your people was massacred by the Ottoman Empire's rulers as well.

Anyways, you're right, this subject has been debated for 90 years and still, the perpetrators are in denial or are lying. Believe whatever you want, but don't try change my mind, or should I say, my knowledge

well in a civil war we lost, if some people killed my people even if we also killed their people, I would call it as genocide. Because civils are fighting. everyone is killing everyone. There is no soldier, there is no front line.

I have been to iskenderun 4 yol twice, I am really sorry for your grandparents lose of their lands but I say again it was a civil war and armenians lost although the number of the losses at Turkish side was bigger. Turkish army was in war against the invader superpowers of that time. And we were betrayed by the citizens of the empire armed by russia against unarmed Turkish and kurdish people. You cannot call it genocide. If so we can also call it Turkish genocide because we lost more people that you did.

80 percent of the books I referred in my previous posts have been pressed in either in england or in states or in any other foreign country. So I open and read many books not pressed in Turkey by Turkish writers.

Do you have any proof about execution system of ottoman empire?

Oh yeah. Another massacre bul**** is that one, Massacre of Kurdish people. It was armenians who killed muslim kurdish people with muslim turkish people.
I am half kurdish and none of my grand parents or relatives or other kurdish people I met know anything about this massacre. I am turkish as well as kurdish but I am pure citizen of Turkey.

This event is as you said has been debated for 90 years and. I am not trying to change your mind, just defending my country from these smears.


PS: someone else mentioned about orhan pamuk.
Just want to talk briefly about him. That ashole is neither turkish nor kurdish. I can post his family heritage. So he is not authority in Turkey. His words or he doesnt mean anything to us in turkey. Well of course he has some communist and socialist supporters among students.
His book "my name is red " clearly indicates from which nation he is. Just read carefully if you have that book, and try to catch the mysticism about one of the religions. Then you will find out from which nation that jackass is. I cannot guarantee you can finish that book without getting bored.

A & B
04-06-2006, 09:28 AM
A n B.
I cannot quote your post due to its length. I will try to discuss with you this way through the order of your post.


First, thank you very much for supporting my saying that there are 192 countries in the world and only a few ones recognized it. Well maybe not all of those countries have a direct hate against Turkey but most of them don’t have sympathy against Turkey too. Hell !! Turkey is Muslim and Armenia is Christian. And all those countries are Christian except one.
I still cannot comprehend that based on what did a country that even doesn’t have proficient academicians to judge this historical event recognize such a thing?


the conference in Turkey.
Yea those guys faced trial because they broke the rules. Can you say it is nonsense that someone was put in jail in Singapore because he smoked on the street? Very simple. Every country has its own rules to maintain its stabilization.
A few persons cannot decide on the behalf of all Turkey citizens. It is politicians elected by citizens who should make this decision. If my people don’t accept something, you cannot do that thing in their country. That is simple that much. But why you don’t want to understand is because you don’t think. Can you imagine the mess if that conference was held in Turkey? Can you imagine how people would be mad with those people who hold that conference? Can you imagine the events? Don’t you understand we don’t accept your alleged genocide story? So WTF are they trying to hold that conference in Turkey?

Recently, some powers are trying to drag Turkey into a mess like paying children to make them stone police and shops on the streets, make them revolt. Can you believe that a 6-year-old kid whose family is unaware of where he is is stoning the police because of his mission? Fortunately Turkey could dodge those plots. It was later unveiled and proved that all those kids were paid by some people not described.


Is Turkey Ottoman?
I don’t say we are great hun empire, or European hun empire, or gokturk empire all of which, although, were big Turkish empires. So don’t compare Persians or romans to Ottomans. I say we are descendants and continuation of Ottoman Empire because we have living people who lived in Ottoman Empire rule as well. I say so because we paid depths of Ottoman Empire. I say so because we still address them as our ancestors. I say so because most of our grandfathers died in Ottoman Army. I say so maybe because we have never been ruled by any other nation. And every Turkish empire continued its way as continuation of the previous one. I say so because we did ruled one third of the world fairly.

You can accuse Ottoman Empire of several things but it was then after Ottoman empire collapsed, the balance of the world changed and humanity met most bloody wars counted with millions and named as world wars.

I referred being innocent to being innocent on this matter. Based on my knowledge gotten from long years of researches and reliable neutral sources, I strongly believe Turkish people died in that civil war as many as Armenians. It was certainly not a genocide but a civil war initiated by Armenians due to freedom promise made by other countries. That is why I call Turkish people innocent on this matter.

You are really pathetic. What kinds of smears are you gonna load on us after that? When did Turkey kill tens of thousands of Kurdish people? You all know wrong about the general thought of Kurdish people in Turkey. There are about 15 millions Kurdish people in Turkey and every citizen of Turkey has the same rights. I already said I am half Kurdish and half Turkish. My mom’s family is wealthier and has more facilities than that of my father’s. The people you saw in Europe or anywhere out of Turkey are sick minded people. They represent less than 0.1 % of Kurdish population. I believe there is also Turkish feeling that way. It is not about being Turkish or Kurdish. Dont try to give me lecture about ethnic situation in my own country.

Man, you need to get a grip on reality.

I don't think you discussed any of the points I made in my post.

A & B
04-06-2006, 10:10 AM
I think it's funny that you cling to the notion that Turkey is an "innocent" (to quote you verbatim) nation.

Turkey is one of the worst human rights abusers in the world. Their abuse of the Kurds and other human rights abuses are some of the biggest reasons for their problems entering the EU right now are they not?

Dave22reborn
04-06-2006, 04:38 PM
Is this guy actually saying that due to the fall of the Ottoman Empire, that WW1, and WW2 happened??????? Man that's messed up, as messed up as downsizing the genocide of a people.

You and SK must be proud.

20 years from now, people will say that no genocide occured in Rwanda.

wolverinex2
04-06-2006, 10:36 PM
Man, you need to get a grip on reality.

I don't think you discussed any of the points I made in my post.

Indeed I did but since you closed your eyes and ears to everything except your fictious genocide story you even dont understand what I mean. Post here if you really have something to share or discuss. It is pathetic to come and say you didnt discuss anything I mentioned.

Its clear enough to understand if you are really not under the avarage. what would you do if a few people held a conference in armenia about that armenian genocide is just a lie?

I have just decided not to talk scientifically anymore, not to give any scientific source because I have realised a booby is a booby. No matter what you do, he is blind and deaf.
I will talk clearly.

Hey dude, you know what. Stop playing conscious model people who just wish an apologise. Express you armenians' real intention.
You better wake up. There will never be a big armenia as it has never been.

There are many ethnic groups in Turkey and we have no problem with any of them. It is simple enough, you stabbed us in the back at our worst time and we kicked you out. All genocide stories are nothing but bull****.

maybe this is the way you understand

wolverinex2
04-06-2006, 11:19 PM
I think it's funny that you cling to the notion that Turkey is an "innocent" (to quote you verbatim) nation.

Turkey is one of the worst human rights abusers in the world. Their abuse of the Kurds and other human rights abuses are some of the biggest reasons for their problems entering the EU right now are they not?


How about armenia? OMG, soldiers beat police chiefs in armenia. Just heard today in the news. U are the last person to talk about human rights.

Sorry for being offansive but you really have problems with understanding. How many times should I say that I am half kurdish and I have never seen my kurdish relatives got any discrimination or problem with government? Most of them have really good positions under governmen.

And who claims Turkey abuses human rights?

France? That eradicated almost one nation in algeria. Isnt it the one whose cops beat students on the streets violently last week?

Spain? Everyone knows what kind of methods they use in bask region.

Greece? How about the people getting lost and killed in greek jails? Although Turkish government offered to pay all expenses for the restoration of the ottoman structures in Atina , they didnt accept. Well we repair all the churches and historical structures from byzantine in Turkey.

Bulgaria? One of their ministers (I dont remember his name) just apologized for putting pressure on Turkish people in Bulgaria to change their names. Stoyanov had also apologized in the past for the same reason.

England? Or should I say united kingdom? BTW, who united them? all jained that kingdom with their own will? Anyway that is not the point.
We dont take the nude pictures of the captives.

Answering just because you asked. Well it is not the reason why we still have some problems with entering EU.

First, although Turkey's economy is much better than the countries which recently entered EU, it is still not good enough when its population is considered.

The population of Turkey is over 70 millions (more crowded than any european country except germany) and this will give Turkey a very big influence in EU if accepted.

Turkey has already gotten the date of starting negotiations from EU. Sooner or later Turkey will enter, if not we dont care. Turkey is the fastest developing country of the world in 2005. We will continue on our own.When Turkey returns his back to europe there will be other countries in front.

PS: If you think one day EU will force Turkey to recognize this genocide story to be accepted EU, then we will simply say "get off " without doubt.

wolverinex2
04-06-2006, 11:25 PM
Is this guy actually saying that due to the fall of the Ottoman Empire, that WW1, and WW2 happened??????? Man that's messed up, as messed up as downsizing the genocide of a people.

You and SK must be proud.

20 years from now, people will say that no genocide occured in Rwanda.

Nope, I just said the balance of the world changed after ottoman empire fell. This caused some other nations to arise together with almost equal powers, of course these countries started to share former ottoman lands to exploit. Germany was late and you know the rest.

When I told my 12 year old bro this, he got what I meant. Strange you infer such a result from what I said.

Dave22reborn
04-06-2006, 11:27 PM
Nope, I just said the balance of the world changed after ottoman empire fell. This caused some other nations to arise together with almost equal powers, of course these countries started to share former ottoman lands to exploit. Germany was late and you know the rest.

When I told my 12 year old bro this, he got what I meant. Strange you infer such a result from what I said.


The Ottoman empire wasn't a world power in the 1800's, nor 1900's.

wolverinex2
04-06-2006, 11:42 PM
The Ottoman empire wasn't a world power in the 1800's, nor 1900's.

Sure. At the first quarter of the 1900s ottoman empire already collapsed. And in 1800s ottoman was already weak and european nations were rising. When it was 1900s they had already shared ottoman lands.

So simple. ottoman fell, others rose. Then they all fought each others.

Dave22reborn
04-06-2006, 11:53 PM
Sure. At the first quarter of the 1900s ottoman empire already collapsed. And in 1800s ottoman was already weak and european nations were rising. When it was 1900s they had already shared ottoman lands.

So simple. ottoman fell, others rose. Then they all fought each others.

WW1 had nothing to do with the Ottoman empire. And even during the Ottoman empire "era" wars between many nations were being fought.

Napoleon ring a bell????

wolverinex2
04-07-2006, 03:53 AM
Do you ever know why WW1 started? Dont tell me because a serbian killed the prince of Austria-Hungary empire.
It seems I will also have to talk about ww1.
If you dont know just let me know? If you know plz post here because I really wonder how you couldnt find any relationship with OE and ww1.

Dave22reborn
04-07-2006, 04:54 AM
Do you ever know why WW1 started? Dont tell me because a serbian killed the prince of Austria-Hungary empire.
It seems I will also have to talk about ww1.
If you dont know just let me know? If you know plz post here because I really wonder how you couldnt find any relationship with OE and ww1.

It's pretty simple, tangling alliances and imperialism.

A & B
04-07-2006, 12:01 PM
All I see here is a Turk, blinded by his patrotism and upbringing, who believes his sweet nostalgic innocent nation is the perpetual victim of world-wide conspiracies and lies.

JYD
04-07-2006, 06:28 PM
All I see here is a Turk, blinded by his patrotism and upbringing, who believes his sweet nostalgic innocent nation is the perpetual victim of world-wide conspiracies and lies.
Nations worldwide and several states of the U.S. have passed resolutions recognizing the Armenian Genocide. In light of the Turkish government’s consistent campaign of denial, official recognition of the Armenian Genocide, especially by Western powers, is a critical step that sends a clear message to the Turkish government that it must come to terms with its past.

Clearly, avoiding the facts of the Genocide or succumbing to Turkish threats and propagating its lies not only prolongs the resolution of this very important human rights issue, but also sets a dangerous precedent for future governments or leaders contemplating genocide. Let us never forget, Adolf Hitler himself justified how he could get away with his plans for the Jews and other "undesirables" of Europe by stating "Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?"










Resolutions: Worldwide


Canada - Ontario (1980)
Cyprus (1982)
European Parliament (1987)
Argentina (1993)
Russia (1995)
Greece (1996)
Australia - New South Wales (1997)


Belgium (1998)
Council of Europe (1998)
French Assembly (1998)
French Senate (2000)
European Parliament (2000)Lebanon (2000)
Sweden (2000)


Italy (2000)
Council of Europe (2001)
French Law (2001)

Canada (2002)

European Parliament (2002)

Canada (2004)










Official Statements/Reports: Non-governmental


United Nations War Crimes Commission Report (1948)

United Nations Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities (1985)

Union of American Hebrew Congregations (1989)


The Association of Genocide Scholars (1997)

Condemnation by His Holiness Pope John Paul II (2000)

Jewish Scholars Affirm Armenian Genocide (2001)

Declaration by His Holiness Pope John Paul II (2001)

EDC
04-07-2006, 10:14 PM
I think the crimes of the Nazi regime are unfortunate (asides from the obvious reasons) because they have recieved so much attention in the mind of the public that other terrible acts simply are not common knowledge.

A good example would be the Great Indian Famine during the nineteenth century. The British established a system of work camps to "help" starving Indians (grain was being exported because of economic reasons unrelated to actual requirements of the British people) by making them work to recieve less calories per day than Hitler alotted for jews in concentration camps. Or there is the Herero, the kulaks, hundreds of historical "rapes" of cities. Sad stuff.

wolverinex2
04-08-2006, 02:08 AM
Either you call it patriotism or ignorance.Whatever you call I dont care anymore. There are more than 70 millon Turkish citizens against these fake smears and more than 1.5 billions muslims behind us.

It is only some retarded european and western politicians owned by the secret world government who recognised it. I have just seen several letters armenians wrote each other in 1915 about how they are supplied weapon by europeans and how they kill Turks and how they threatened other innocent armenians who didnt want to be a part of it.

Sooner or later, Turkey is taking its place among the most powerfull ones and then we will be able to defend ourselves in political arena better. Then all our proofs will be found reliable. History is cunning. It is not always with the right one. There is a damn rule on this earth money is the power and power is the money.

while fighting against almost the whole invader superpowers of europe, we sacrificed a generation including all educated and scholars that caused Turkey to lag behind in economical race for decades. It was us who shed this land with our own blood and tears. Now you jackasses show it in your maps as armenian territory. Go live in your dry lands and put an end to this bull****. I am sick of all these idiots who even havent been able to have a grade A in all their education life become a history scholar in these forums. Most of you are so shameless that you still can talk about this matter here although your history is full of crimes about mass killings and plots on poor nations.

How many of your countries are nothing to do with genocides in rwanda, chechnya, algeria, sudan, bosnia, nanjing, india, and others I dont remember now?

Any of you knows that armenians have not even one single document or proof about this story and it is just based on claims?

Any of you knows armenia was going to join the meeting in vienna in 2005 to prove alleged armenian genocide, however they gave up to join because they couldnt find any proof?

During all your history you armenians have been ruled by other nations and for the first time you had the right to live your religion freely in Turkish time in 1461. You had your patriarchate at that time. There are still 70000 armenians in Turkey having 33 churches, 16 schools, 11 associations and 8 newspapers and denying this genocide story. Maybe they are the children of the ones who didnt betray their country.

I will end this post with a sentence of American history professor Justin Mc. Carthy
If 15th century Turkish hadnt been indulgent that much, 19th Turkish wouldnt have suffered this much

wolverinex2
04-08-2006, 04:36 AM
Another misconception is the comparison of the armenian issue and holocaust. I have opened a new thread named "The Holocaust and Armenian Case: Highligting the Main Differences" that I believe will clarify this misconception along with some historical facts and proofs.

Please read carefully and if you still have the same thoughts, respond without flaming.

JYD
04-08-2006, 06:24 AM
Another misconception is the comparison of the armenian issue and holocaust. I have opened a new thread named "The Holocaust and Armenian Case: Highligting the Main Differences" that I believe will clarify this misconception along with some historical facts and proofs.

Please read carefully and if you still have the same thoughts, respond without flaming.
The only difference is that when they killed Jews, they didn't kill them for religion or ethnicity alone. They did for Armenians. Ataturk did as well, not just the Ottomans. It still continues today, but this time against other ethnicities as well. Thousands of civilian Kurds killed daily because of 'suspicions'.

wolverinex2
04-08-2006, 09:28 AM
The only difference is that when they killed Jews, they didn't kill them for religion or ethnicity alone. They did for Armenians. Ataturk did as well, not just the Ottomans. It still continues today, but this time against other ethnicities as well. Thousands of civilian Kurds killed daily because of 'suspicions'.

Have you read the new thread I mentioned? It seems you didn't. Believe me when I read "Thousands of civilian Kurds killed daily because of 'suspicions" I really laughed out loud. OMG, this sentence really summaries how you got your knowledge about things. Thousands of kurds killed daily? Oh my God. Really funny. Somebody had said in previous posts armenian people are nice comedians. OMG, he is right.

Dont try to talk about historical events while you blunder about something in 2006. Some european parliamentarians just stupidly sent a letter to Turkish president because turkish cops used pepper gas to quell the unrest on the street against a few hundred supporters of the bloody terrorist group. Can you believe they would give negotiation date for entering EU if thousands of people are killed in Turkey daily? BTW, it was proved those rebels were rented by some people by paying them.

Turkey is a safe and peaciful country why are you trying to show it opposite. Turkey is one of the most tourist attracting countries. Do you think these people would come to Turkey if something as you said exists in Turkey? Really funny.

Ok lets calculate it. Thousands of people daily.

Considering 2 thousands people per day, 60 thousands a month and 720 thousands a year. OMG another genocide!!!!

Just curiosity, How old are you??

A & B
04-08-2006, 12:50 PM
It is only some retarded european and western politicians owned by the secret world government who recognised it.

BAM!

There went your credibility...

JYD
04-08-2006, 03:45 PM
BAM!

There went your credibility...
Ask him who recognizes the Turkish Cyprus...apparently, educated free democracies are all 'boogie-nations' to him...but not even Azerbaijian, the Taliban, or even Iran recognizes the Turkish occupation of Cyprus.

Bottom line: Turks are trying to constantly justify crimes they've committed against ALL non-turkic ethnicities...ARMENIAN, ASSYRIAN, CHALDEAN, ARAB (Syrians, Iraqi, Peninsula Arabs), KURDS, GREEK, CYPRIOT GREEKS, BULGARIANS...pretty much all their neighbors.

A & B
04-08-2006, 03:55 PM
Have you read the new thread I mentioned? It seems you didn't. Believe me when I read "Thousands of civilian Kurds killed daily because of 'suspicions" I really laughed out loud. OMG, this sentence really summaries how you got your knowledge about things. Thousands of kurds killed daily? Oh my God. Really funny. Somebody had said in previous posts armenian people are nice comedians. OMG, he is right.

Dont try to talk about historical events while you blunder about something in 2006. Some european parliamentarians just stupidly sent a letter to Turkish president because turkish cops used pepper gas to quell the unrest on the street against a few hundred supporters of the bloody terrorist group. Can you believe they would give negotiation date for entering EU if thousands of people are killed in Turkey daily? BTW, it was proved those rebels were rented by some people by paying them.

Turkey is a safe and peaciful country why are you trying to show it opposite. Turkey is one of the most tourist attracting countries. Do you think these people would come to Turkey if something as you said exists in Turkey? Really funny.

Ok lets calculate it. Thousands of people daily.

Considering 2 thousands people per day, 60 thousands a month and 720 thousands a year. OMG another genocide!!!!

Just curiosity, How old are you??

Do you not see the logical fallacy committed here?

Let's see.

Accusation: Turkey abuses its Kurdish population.
Defense: Turkey has a large tourist industry.

???????

wolverinex2
04-08-2006, 09:32 PM
Do you not see the logical fallacy committed here?

Let's see.

Accusation: Turkey abuses its Kurdish population.
Defense: Turkey has a large tourist industry.

???????

Well it seems this thread has lost its point since some people dont even cannot get the point in the post.

It was just one of the simple examples to show how funny to assert thousands of people die in Turkey daily. You boobies even dont understand what you are reading. Lets simplify it more for the ones who need help to comprehend.

Accusation: Thousands of civilian Kurds killed daily because of 'suspicions'

Defense: If Turkey had that kind of unrest (imagine thousands of people are shot on the street daily), hundreds of thousands of foreign people wouldnt visit such a country. Because I am pretty sure it will not mean anything to you if I say I am from Turkey and there is no such a bull**** in Turkey. So I wanted to adress your logic but it seems it works different for some.

If you cannot understand this time I will really stop replyin you because of lack of a worthy opponent.

I AM THE BEST PROOF AGAINST YOUR NONSENSE KURDISH ALLEGETIONS AS A HALF KURD.

wolverinex2
04-08-2006, 09:57 PM
Ask him who recognizes the Turkish Cyprus...apparently, educated free democracies are all 'boogie-nations' to him...but not even Azerbaijian, the Taliban, or even Iran recognizes the Turkish occupation of Cyprus.

Bottom line: Turks are trying to constantly justify crimes they've committed against ALL non-turkic ethnicities...ARMENIAN, ASSYRIAN, CHALDEAN, ARAB (Syrians, Iraqi, Peninsula Arabs), KURDS, GREEK, CYPRIOT GREEKS, BULGARIANS...pretty much all their neighbors.

Yea we assasinated kennedy too. We have also nuclear facilities. We also intend to dominate all world. lol

Assyrian? Chaldean? Nope but we have problems with sumerians and trojans. lol. Really lol.
We have no problem with arabs and kurdish. Turkey is a 99.9% muslim country and we,arab, kurdish, turkish and others, are all brothers in islam after all. Why do you claim all turkish acts as a crime? We had to interfere cyprus because there was a mass killing against cyprus turks. Everyone even cypriot greeks accept it. Look at wikipedia or CIA web page about cyprus issue.
Yea you are right no one recognizes turkish cyprus but there is a turkish republic there. So go and cry.

Even if we did whatever you claim about Turkey and other nations, that would be nothing when compared to what betrayer armenians did. You are really shameless. You still try to provoke others after all you did. Go read other thread I mentioned and learn what you are and what you did if you dont accept the proofs I already posted before in this thread.

When it comes to western countries. I have no hard feeling against them, not against those nations, those people or those countries. Although I am talkin about SOME POLITICINAS of A FEW COUNTRIES that recognised armenian issue, why do you attribute what I said to all western countries and politicians? There do exists some stupid politicians in Turkey as in any country. Morover it is nothing to do with their democracy system. Turkey is also a democratic and educated country after all. Much much more than armenia.

I just said SOME retarded POLITICIANS. Can you distinguish the difference between SOME and ALL or POLITICIANS and EVERYONE?

Plz I request you not to be funny here. Post here if you really have something to discuss here. Dont be stuck in the concepts. Try to discuss the main theme of my posts.

wolverinex2
04-08-2006, 09:59 PM
BAM!

There went your credibility...

You probably misunderstood as usual. Already explained the details about what I meant.

wolverinex2
04-10-2006, 05:12 AM
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=755555&page=1&pp=30

This page is already spoiled with unnecassary debates so I suggest anyone who wanna learn what this is all aboutto go and read the link above

JYD
04-10-2006, 06:27 PM
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=755555&page=1&pp=30

This page is already spoiled with unnecassary debates so I suggest anyone who wanna learn what this is all aboutto go and read the link above
Why dont you tell us more about the secret world government and how no one recognizes the Armenian genocide and how turkish occupied Cyprus is recognized by all :rolleyes:

Turkish government lies are ridiculous and have no validity in the world of reality. The Ottomans started ethnic cleansing and atakopek with his racist policies continued them with his 'pure' turkish (kopek) race policies.

pezevenk.

wolverinex2
04-10-2006, 10:34 PM
Why dont you tell us more about the secret world government and how no one recognizes the Armenian genocide and how turkish occupied Cyprus is recognized by all :rolleyes:

Turkish government lies are ridiculous and have no validity in the world of reality. The Ottomans started ethnic cleansing and atakopek with his racist policies continued them with his 'pure' turkish (kopek) race policies.

pezevenk.


This post shows how low you are. For the ones who dont know Turkish, let me explain he says in parenthesis.

Kopek means dog.
Pezevenk means pimp.

You are trying to distort whatever I say. I started to believe you are doin it instinctly not on purpose. Better get checked by a physician.

I clearly stated no state recognized North Turkish Cyprus Republic. You still insist I implied it was recognized.

I really understand you, it must be really difficult to assert something fictious and unreal. So I understand why you get angry and degrade yourself using bad words. Please keep the level and discuss with respect. In that case I can keep talking to you.

PEACE

dodigago
04-10-2006, 10:39 PM
you dont even have the slightest idea about the truths. well talkin about education and believeing everything you read. Dont you even question anything? Just admit what you read?

Well you should very well know, after ww1, ottoman empire was invaded by france on the south, england on southeast, greece on the west, italy on islands and west, russia on the east.Armenian lived on the east then.

Almost one Turkish generation died in that independence battle. Turkish won but it costed them a lot like losing everyone including educated people, scholars and even high school students.
So what the minorities did in that battle although they were the citizens of the same empire?

All minorities had rights not to join army. These rights were accepted by the empire by the pressure of the west europe countries and russia.
When all turkish males joined army, your lovely backstabbers started to kill turkish women and children under the provocation of russsia. It wasnt a genocide but a banishment by the people who came home at the end of the battle. Many scientist found mass turkish graves done by armenians and opened their research to public. but no one even knows about that? I am not even talking about the terrorist group named ASALA that killed several turkish diplomats.

just explaining for the ignorant couch patatoes, there is a bloody terrorist group in Turkey, PKK, which caused the death of 30,000 people in last 20 years. There are always armenians among the captured terrorists by army.


Well from your posts, it seems you all really like reading web sites. Just make a quick search entering the key words and you will see thousands of sites about massacred turkish people by armenians. I did and this is the first link I hit.

http://www.123freehost.co.uk/sites/armenianterrorism/


It is obvious poor armenia is claiming a part of turkish land now, and for that they are trying to make powerful countries admit this geocide story. Dont waste your time, backstabbers. there is no nation which didnt taste the lose when they tried to invade our land. Every turkish person including children dies for their land without doubt.

Dont you even think for the sake of what turkish did such a thing,alleged genocide, when they were in their weakest time in their history? Why didnt they do that when they ruled 3 continents and they had no opponent power to stop them?
Turkish ruled armenians for more than 6 centuries and harmed none of them.
Doesnt it ring any bell?

I cant believe how people can be so simple.

What you do now is nothing but making turkish people hate you more. WTH you are trying to do is nonsense. In the region, where armenia is located, are more than 6 Turkish countries. Stop being dummies of some other powers and try to moderate your relationships with your neighbour countries as a nation. You behave like a tribe.


BTW, you must hear that armenians are killing now azerian soldiers on the border although they have a cease fire treaty. Armenians killed 5 soldiers in only last month, March. So stop playing peacefull angels.

While everything is profound that much, u just sit back and say
-man, there is no movie about that thing I read on the internet.

well im Armenian and I dont give a **** about anything that you present and im not going to read that

All I know is my great grandmother cried herself to sleep at nights and couldnt hold back tears when asked any question about her mother/childhood because of she saw done to her by turkish soliders. Not to mention her sisters and brothers

Symme-3
04-10-2006, 11:38 PM
All I know is my great grandmother cried herself to sleep at nights and couldnt hold back tears when asked any question about her mother/childhood because of she saw done to her by turkish soliders. Not to mention her sisters and brothers


THAT ^^^^^^^, for me is more proof that anything you are saying or presenting wolverine. Eye witness. Just like my great grandfather.

I dont care what Israel says, and I dont even if the whole world does not recognize the issue. I dont think dodigago's great grandmother was acting when she was crying.

Research general Morgenthau. He was an American diplomat in the OE when the genocide occured. He witnessed all the plannings and the execution of the masetre plant by being present in the meetings held by Talaat Pacha. Is he liying as well?


BTW, the owner of the pizza place 2 streets from my house is kurdish. He told me he fled with his family from Turkey because of their abuse to his people. Oh wait a minute. He must be lying as well. You are the only beacon of truth of this earth. @sshole

Symme-3
04-10-2006, 11:48 PM
And another thing.


Let me get this straight:

You are claiming that more innocent Turks were massacred during WW1 than Armenians during that time frame. So, basically you are saying that a nation that was IN Turkey (or OE) organized and pepertrated a genocide without a government and an army greater than the one than an Empire could have done. Damn, Armenia was one hell of a repressed nation; no government, no army, no leader, yet so strong.

Sure buddy.

Symme-3
04-10-2006, 11:56 PM
Some day," he once said, "I will come and discuss the whole Armenian subject with you," and then he added, in a low tone in Turkish: "But that day will never come!"

"Why are you so interested in the Armenians, anyway?" he said, on another occasion. "You are a Jew; these people are Christians. The Mohammedans and the Jews always get on harmoniously. We are treating the Jews here all right. What have you to complain of? Why can't you let us do with these Christians as we please?"

I had frequently remarked that the Turks look upon practically every question as a personal matter, yet this point of view rather stunned me. However, it was a complete revelation of Turkish mentality; the fact that, above all considerations of race and religion, there are such things as humanity and civilization, never for a moment enters their mind. They can understand a Christian fighting for a Christian and a Jew fighting for a Jew, but such abstractions as justice and decency form no part of their conception of things.

"You don't seem to realize," I replied, "that I am not here as a Jew but as American Ambassador. My country contains something more than 97,000,000 Christians and something less than 3,000,000 Jews. So, at least in my ambassadorial capacity, I am 97 per cent. Christian. But after all, that is not the point. I do not appeal to you in the name of any race or any religion, but merely as a human being. You have told me many times that you want to make Turkey a part of the modern progressive world. The way you are treating the Armenians will not help you to realize that ambition; it puts you in the class of backward, reactionary peoples."

"We treat the Americans all right, too," said Talaat. "I don't see why you should complain."

"But Americans are outraged by your persecutions of the Armenians," I replied. "You must base your principles on humanitarianism, not racial discrimination, or the United States will not regard you as a friend and an equal. And you should understand the great changes that are taking place among Christians all over the world. They are forgetting their differences and all sects are coming together as one. You look down on American missionaries, but don't forget that it is the best element in America that supports their religious work, as well as their educational institutions. Americans are not mere materialists, always chasing money---they are broadly humanitarian, and interested in the spread of justice and civilization throughout the world. After this war is over you will face a new situation. You say that, if victorious, you can defy the world, but you are wrong. You will have to meet public opinion everywhere, especially in the United States. Our people will never forget these massacres. They will always resent the wholesale destruction of Christians in Turkey. They will look upon it as nothing but wilful murder and will seriously condemn all the men who are responsible for it. You will not be able to protect yourself under your political status and say that you acted as Minister of the Interior and not as Talaat. You are defying all ideas of justice as we understand the term in our country."

Strangely enough, these remarks did not offend Talaat, but they did not shake his determination. I might as well have been talking to a stone wall. From my abstractions he immediately came down to something definite.

"These people," he said, "refused to disarm when we told them to. They opposed us at Van and at Zeitoun, and they helped the Russians. There is only one way in which we can defend ourselves against them in the future, and that is just to deport them."

"Suppose a few Armenians did betray you," I said. "Is that a reason for destroying a whole race? Is that an excuse for making innocent women and children suffer?"

"Those things are inevitable," he replied.

This remark to me was not quite so illuminating as one which Talaat made subsequently to a reporter of the Berliner Tageblatt, who asked him the same question. "We have been reproached," he said, according to this interviewer, "for making no distinction between the innocent Armenians and the guilty; but that was utterly impossible, in view of the fact that those who were innocent to-day might be guilty to-morrow"!


Conversation between American Ambassador Morgenthau and Grand Visir Talaat Pacha.

Source: http://www.cilicia.com/morgenthau/Morgen25.htm

Not good enough?

dodigago
04-10-2006, 11:57 PM
no point arguing with this guy


he honestly believes that a minority in a huge country that was almost TOTALLY extermined died due to "war" where the area where most died/lived were no wear near the war zone(woman and children) and that all the of the survivors are making up a big conspiracy

I mean they must be right? it all must be a big huge lie right?

I mean turkey would never due such a thing

o wait dont the greeks sort of have a similar claim
and the kurds..and the assyrians..and the cypriots

nm all these people must be lying and making up a big collective story :rolleyes: evil Christians

because you know..the turkish government would never lie :rolleyes:

Symme-3
04-10-2006, 11:58 PM
THE MURDER OF A NATION:


http://www.cilicia.com/morgenthau/Morgen24.htm

dodigago
04-11-2006, 02:01 AM
I mean I cannot believe these type of people still exist

it just hurts me deeply inside because I know with eyes what ive seen my great grandparents go through and for people to say its not real..it just upsets me a lot..

my grandpa used to sing a song sumtimes

something like "ill always be waiting for you, years will pass, but we will meet again, your lives were short, but I will live it like your with me everyday and live for all of us" my grandfather was a proud hardworking villager who works 12 hours a day until he was well into his 90's

that was the only time ive ever seen my grandfather cry..when he was singing that song..I could see the pain and sarrow in his eyes, I know why that man never did anything but work, it was like he was haunted by his past, the only time he wasnt working was when he was eating or sleeping

and for you to bring all this bull**** and tell me its not real..I knew how god damn real it was when I looked into his eyes..

wow I dont get really emotional and take this board seriously but im seriously nearly in tears remembering this..its just somewhere where I didnt want to go

wolverinex2
04-11-2006, 02:21 AM
THAT ^^^^^^^, for me is more proof that anything you are saying or presenting wolverine. Eye witness. Just like my great grandfather.

I dont care what Israel says, and I dont even if the whole world does not recognize the issue. I dont think dodigago's great grandmother was acting when she was crying.

Research general Morgenthau. He was an American diplomat in the OE when the genocide occured. He witnessed all the plannings and the execution of the masetre plant by being present in the meetings held by Talaat Pacha. Is he liying as well?


BTW, the owner of the pizza place 2 streets from my house is kurdish. He told me he fled with his family from Turkey because of their abuse to his people. Oh wait a minute. He must be lying as well. You are the only beacon of truth of this earth. @sshole


Easy guys, I am talking through documents and proofs you just tell touching stories. Why shall I believe you say the truth? Whay shall anyone believe you say the truth? You even dont have one reliable proof unless we consider your grandparents as reliable scientific sources.

You behave like wounded animals not knowing where to attack. I remember in this thread you armenian guys despised kurdish people for not having a country and being a tribe. what is it now?

If you search your city you can find many people telling the same story, more than a pizza shop owner. It is a very well known story in Turkey, to get better life standarts in a more developed country (especially european countries, canada and some states of USA), just pass the border and then start crying "we are refugee, we have been abused, please give us citizenship and job"

It is the best way to get a good life for the people who are uneducated and jobless. Well europe now must understand these stage games because they dont accept these kinds of refugees anymore. Most of them make serious trouble in these countries after all.

I hope one day you armenians and those refugees will not revolt against the countries in which you live now. It is not something you have never done.

Well I am a half kurdish and coming from a family with an avarage income. However, now I have a perfect and prestigious job with a great salary in a foreign country. Thanks to my country that gave me good opportunuties to develop myself in my field.

Stop lying noobs. There is no discrimination in Turkey. I spent my life in that country, not you.

Talk to me by what you have not what you heard.

wolverinex2
04-11-2006, 02:31 AM
And another thing.


Let me get this straight:

You are claiming that more innocent Turks were massacred during WW1 than Armenians during that time frame. So, basically you are saying that a nation that was IN Turkey (or OE) organized and pepertrated a genocide without a government and an army greater than the one than an Empire could have done. Damn, Armenia was one hell of a repressed nation; no government, no army, no leader, yet so strong.

Sure buddy.

Why you guys dont understand what I say.

I just said Turkish army was fighting in at least 5 lines against invader countries. The east army was fighting against russia. Do you ever know even high school students joined those battles and none of them returned home? Anyone capable of fighting was on the front lines. In other words, there was no soldier in the villages, towns and most of the cities.

You armenians, armed by russia and other rich armenians living in europe, killed the unarmed poor people. That is why many turkish people were killed in armenian terrorism.

Otherwise, it is too obvious you dont even have the weakest chance to stand against Turkish army. Those soldiers defeated european armies, like england, france, greece, italy, australia, that invaded Turkey (That is why Turkey has been a free country since then)

Now you got it?

dodigago
04-11-2006, 02:37 AM
Why you guys dont understand what I say.

I just said Turkish army was fighting in at least 5 lines against invader countries. The east army was fighting against russia. Do you ever know even high school students joined those battles and none of them returned home? Anyone capable of fighting was on the front lines. In other words, there was no soldier in the villages, towns and most of the cities.

You armenians, armed by russia and other rich armenians living in europe, killed the unarmed poor people. That is why many turkish people were killed in armenian terrorism.

Otherwise, it is too obvious you dont even have the weakest chance to stand against Turkish army. Those soldiers defeated european armies, like england, france, greece, italy, australia, that invaded Turkey (That is why Turkey has been a free country since then)

Now you got it?

are you that stupid that you do not know the diffrence between soldiers and woman and children?

THERE ARE NUMEROUS JOURNALS AND STORIES FROM PEOPLE (RELIABLE SOURCES) CONFIRMING THE SITUATION - IT HAS ENOGUH EVIDENCE AS NEARLY ANY HISTORICAL EVENT

I GUESS THESE PHOTOS ARE PHOTOSHOPPED

http://members.fortunecity.com/fstav1/armenia/arm_refug.jpg

http://imia.cc.duth.gr/turkey/pics/02.jpg

http://www.armeniapedia.org/images/c/c2/Geno19.JPG

http://members.fortunecity.com/fstav1/armenia/arm_refug3.jpg

wolverinex2
04-11-2006, 02:45 AM
no point arguing with this guy


he honestly believes that a minority in a huge country that was almost TOTALLY extermined died due to "war" where the area where most died/lived were no wear near the war zone(woman and children) and that all the of the survivors are making up a big conspiracy

I mean they must be right? it all must be a big huge lie right?

I mean turkey would never due such a thing

o wait dont the greeks sort of have a similar claim
and the kurds..and the assyrians..and the cypriots

nm all these people must be lying and making up a big collective story :rolleyes: evil Christians

because you know..the turkish government would never lie :rolleyes:

Do you wonder why I can argue with all you guys? because what you defend is really not real. Someone cannot defend something unreal. Whenever you speak here, I can detect several plain wrong ideas and claims here so I can easily reply.

I have never said something about christians. All christians in Turkey including armenians live in peace, they have no objection no complain or anyting else similar.

Armenians were not near the war zone, they were in the middle of war zone. They were the WAR itself.
I am sorry to be rude but all I can say to describe you is idiot. How many times do I have to explain the situation about kurdish? How many times do I have to say I myself is half kurd? Why shall I defend a country killing and persucating my people?


the cypriots. Yea another idiotic approach. How many times do I have to say they first attacked and started to kill turkish people on the island and turkish army had to interfere.

Go read wikipedia and CIA facts about this issue. What did we do to greek people? They invaded smyrna (izmir) and we kicked their asses and poured their solders into the sea, it is nothing to do with their civil people.

Who are assyrians? Dont come up with trojans or sumerians tomorrow.

wolverinex2
04-11-2006, 02:56 AM
I mean I cannot believe these type of people still exist

it just hurts me deeply inside because I know with eyes what ive seen my great grandparents go through and for people to say its not real..it just upsets me a lot..

my grandpa used to sing a song sumtimes

something like "ill always be waiting for you, years will pass, but we will meet again, your lives were short, but I will live it like your with me everyday and live for all of us" my grandfather was a proud hardworking villager who works 12 hours a day until he was well into his 90's

that was the only time ive ever seen my grandfather cry..when he was singing that song..I could see the pain and sarrow in his eyes, I know why that man never did anything but work, it was like he was haunted by his past, the only time he wasnt working was when he was eating or sleeping

and for you to bring all this bull**** and tell me its not real..I knew how god damn real it was when I looked into his eyes..

wow I dont get really emotional and take this board seriously but im seriously nearly in tears remembering this..its just somewhere where I didnt want to go

Man we also have been in tears for several years. Your grandfather is right to feel that way but it is not only your grandfather who feels like that. There are thousands of turkish grandfathers in the same situation. I already accept many armenians died there. What I and we dont accept is that it was a genocide. It was surely a civil war not initiated by us that caused deaths of millions of people at 2 sides.

So stop telling touching stories to distort the facts. I believe what you tell about your granfather is true but it is bull**** you base it on a genocide story.
Sorry but we had to defend ourselves, you should have fought with turkish people together against the invaders. If you had done that, maybe today you and I would be talking something different friendly face to face.

dodigago
04-11-2006, 03:02 AM
Armenians were not near the war zone, they were in the middle of war zone. They were the WAR itself.
I am sorry to be rude but all I can say to describe you is idiot. How many times do I have to explain the situation about kurdish? How many times do I have to say I myself is half kurd? Why shall I defend a country killing and persucating my people?



dude Armenia wasnt a country

hence Turkey declared war on armenians

that alone is grounds for genocide


owned

end of thread

wolverinex2
04-11-2006, 03:04 AM
are you that stupid that you do not know the diffrence between soldiers and woman and children?

I GUESS THESE PHOTOS ARE PHOTOSHOPPED




Why not?

How can you defend otherwise? How can you prove they are not photoshopped? People are doing incredible things via smart computers and softwares. Even I can do that by computer.

How do you know they are not war guilties but armenians? Do you also have any picture showing their IDs?

dodigago
04-11-2006, 03:05 AM
Why not?

How can you defend otherwise? How can you prove they are not photoshopped? People are doing incredible things via smart computers and softwares. Even I can do that by computer.

How do you know they are not war guilties but armenians? Do you also have any picture showing their IDs?

are you really that stupid

how we do know the hollacaust is true? ANY WAR PRE 1900 - how we know if its true - maybe the pictures are fake and all the accounts are fake as well :rolleyes:

wolverinex2
04-11-2006, 03:06 AM
Dont compare holocaust to your story. There are not a few, not hundreds or thousands of proofs abou holocaust. There are millions of proofs about holocaust.

No one even would need picture to confirm holocaust. BTW, I can give you tens of links showing the pics of turkish people killed by armenians. I thought to post them here before but I thought it wouldnt be reliable enough for a questioning brain.



yea end of the thread. This will not end by this way. Only time will show who is right and who is not

Gtg to gym before it closes.

PEACE

dodigago
04-11-2006, 03:06 AM
yea end of the thread. This will not end by this way. Only time will show who is right and who is not

Gtg to gym before it closes.

hey asswhoile you just admitted TUrkey declared war on Armenians

that is a genocide

so whats the debate? :rolleyes:

wolverinex2
04-11-2006, 03:15 AM
no I didnt. But it was a kicking out the backstabbers. A war is declared on a country, you didnt have a country

lol. really lol. . You mean any war is a genocide? OMG, pouhahahaha.

dodigago
04-11-2006, 03:25 AM
no I didnt. But it was a kicking out the backstabbers. A war is declared on a country, you didnt have a country

lol. really lol. . You mean any war is a genocide? OMG, pouhahahaha.

any war where a government declares war on a certain group/race inside the country IS a gencoide

that is the classification of a genocide

wolverinex2
04-11-2006, 03:49 AM
any war where a government declares war on a certain group/race inside the country IS a gencoide

that is the classification of a genocide

You are bad and ignorant at terms as you are at history.


From my previous posts,

The description of the genocide described by professor R. lemkin is
a) the intention of a government to eradicate a race or group living under this government
b) the existence of a policiy about this intention
c) a clear command to apply this policy

Do you have any proof or document that proves ottoman had this policy?

Do you have any proof or document that proves ottoman commanded this policy to be done?

of course you dont

Nahh just waste of time.

JYD
04-11-2006, 06:15 PM
Yeghpair, shad hok mi dar as shun turkin.

WE ALL HAVE GRANDPARENTS WHO CAN NOT TALK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED. EVERY ARMENIAN ON THIS EARTH. NOT ONE ARMENIAN WAS LEFT UNTOUCHED. WE ALL ARE DESCENDANTS OF VICTIMS.

Do you understand the difference, turk? The Ottoman and Kemalist governments murders on a regular basis CIVILIANS. There were Armenians at the time, as now there are Kurds in the military. Traitors? No. turk mentality is from centuries ago: if a group is suspected of doing something wrong, kill hundreds or thousands of that group. Russians promised Armenians NOTHING, and Armenians had NOTHING to gain from a revolution (certainly not independence) but because Russians used this as a scare tactic, turks betrayed the Armenian population, disarmed them all (considering almost all in those days lived in rural areas), massacre after massacre, and then, in 1915, no more regional massacres, but a empire-wide genocide of Armenians, sent to the deserts to die...or just plain killed when the turk soldiers didn't want to go into the deserts (fearing arab rebels, who were OPENLY rebelling but never saw any massacre).

Civilians killed because of pathetic propaganda by turkish enemies...and the turks to this day believe the lies. :rolleyes:

God bless all Armenian Heroes who have held the candle lit in memory of those who were innocently slaughtered, en masse, for us, those who survived. Polor Hayer vor meran mezi hamar, irents anouner hitch chi mornank. God bless them all, may their names live forever in our minds and hearts. Lisbon 5, Genocide Commandos, ASALA, ASA...by all names, they are all my brothers and sisters, who had enough of getting spit in the face by denialist turks and dared to give one small aptak back, one at a time.

JYD
04-11-2006, 06:18 PM
You are bad and ignorant at terms as you are at history.


From my previous posts,

The description of the genocide described by professor R. lemkin is
a) the intention of a government to eradicate a race or group living under this government
b) the existence of a policiy about this intention
c) a clear command to apply this policy

Do you have any proof or document that proves ottoman had this policy?

Do you have any proof or document that proves ottoman commanded this policy to be done?

of course you dont

Nahh just waste of time.
I recently heard 3 professors, all TURK, who had documented proof from Ottoman and Kemalist times showing it was Genocide. This wasn't a biased school, but one of the worlds most well known...UCLA.

Besides, ALMOST ALL COUNTRIES ON EARTH RECOGNIZE the crime, except for poor old turkey, which is currently still practicing ethnic cleansing on kurds :rolleyes: but hey, I heard they're actually allowed to have one kurdish radio station now, as of teh year 2006 :rolleyes: and i think pretty soon even a Kurdish newspaper if they behave! :rolleyes:

The Rob
04-11-2006, 07:39 PM
I recently heard 3 professors, all TURK, who had documented proof from Ottoman and Kemalist times showing it was Genocide. This wasn't a biased school, but one of the worlds most well known...UCLA.

Besides, ALMOST ALL COUNTRIES ON EARTH RECOGNIZE the crime, except for poor old turkey, which is currently still practicing ethnic cleansing on kurds :rolleyes: but hey, I heard they're actually allowed to have one kurdish radio station now, as of teh year 2006 :rolleyes: and i think pretty soon even a Kurdish newspaper if they behave! :rolleyes:


This is absolutely true....
As stated, there are many TURKISH historians who admit there was indeed a genocide.

Also I don't see how these ignorant Turks can defend themselves by stating "conspiracy" when there are still people alive who suffed losses in the 1.5 million slain (such as my grandparents).

JYD
04-11-2006, 11:00 PM
This is absolutely true....
As stated, there are many TURKISH historians who admit there was indeed a genocide.

Also I don't see how these ignorant Turks can defend themselves by stating "conspiracy" when there are still people alive who suffed losses in the 1.5 million slain (such as my grandparents).
It's funny that not even within the hostage community of Armenians in Turkey they are constantly trying to get Armenians to say there was no such thing, but not even in TUrkey, as racist as it is, as persecuted as anti-nationalists are, can they find one Armenian who will say 'it didnt happen'. At best, they can find, among the hostage community (of which I have family there) someone to say 'history doesnt matter'.

wolverinex2
04-11-2006, 11:24 PM
This is absolutely true....
As stated, there are many TURKISH historians who admit there was indeed a genocide.

Also I don't see how these ignorant Turks can defend themselves by stating "conspiracy" when there are still people alive who suffed losses in the 1.5 million slain (such as my grandparents).


Give me some proof you jackases. You have been tellin this story for almost 1 century and you still dont know why only a few countries recognised that despite all your efforts and lobby works. Because these smears dont have any proof.
You just tell stories. You all are really shameless. If I did something you did, I wouldnt dare to look at the face of a Turk.

You all ignorants come and say what your parents or grandparents say. They are not different from you. Of course they told you what you will tell your children. You are the fruits of their propaganda. So their mentality is not expected to be different from yours as that of our parents are not different from ours.

That is why I say, give me some proofs and stop what your parents told you. Besides, stop insulting my people, no nation on this earth desires to be insulted by betrayars.

Anyway, I have presented several proofs in my previous posts. If you have, you do the same tooand stop telling about your oldies.

Who are these turkish proffessors? what are their names?
COnsidering you say the truth, OMG what a dilemma that is? Thousands of turkish professors and others from other nations say the opposite you dont even care what they say, but 3 professors say what you say and you praise them. You are real ignorant, uneducated idiots. Every sentence of yours sinks you deeper.



Well you mean a few armenian betrayed Turks and all armenians were percetucated? eventually????

Bull****. There was a volunteer armenian army of 150.000 soldiers, attacking Turkish army on the line and flattering the asess of russians. Another 60,000 armenians were raiding the villages.

More than 200,000 armenian armed terrorists (not civilian) existed there, you call it a few???

Of course every country would do the same. The banishment was what betrayers deserved. And people kept fighting armenians for their revenge, for their murdered babies, wifes, and parents. If there was a turkish army attack on armenians, today there wouldnt be any armenian to remember those days. Your parents were the survivors of a civil war not a genocide.

wolverinex2
04-11-2006, 11:52 PM
Yeghpair, shad hok mi dar as shun turkin.

WE ALL HAVE GRANDPARENTS WHO CAN NOT TALK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED. EVERY ARMENIAN ON THIS EARTH. NOT ONE ARMENIAN WAS LEFT UNTOUCHED. WE ALL ARE DESCENDANTS OF VICTIMS.

Do you understand the difference, turk? The Ottoman and Kemalist governments murders on a regular basis CIVILIANS. There were Armenians at the time, as now there are Kurds in the military. Traitors? No. turk mentality is from centuries ago: if a group is suspected of doing something wrong, kill hundreds or thousands of that group. Russians promised Armenians NOTHING, and Armenians had NOTHING to gain from a revolution (certainly not independence) but because Russians used this as a scare tactic, turks betrayed the Armenian population, disarmed them all (considering almost all in those days lived in rural areas), massacre after massacre, and then, in 1915, no more regional massacres, but a empire-wide genocide of Armenians, sent to the deserts to die...or just plain killed when the turk soldiers didn't want to go into the deserts (fearing arab rebels, who were OPENLY rebelling but never saw any massacre).

Civilians killed because of pathetic propaganda by turkish enemies...and the turks to this day believe the lies. :rolleyes:

God bless all Armenian Heroes who have held the candle lit in memory of those who were innocently slaughtered, en masse, for us, those who survived. Polor Hayer vor meran mezi hamar, irents anouner hitch chi mornank. God bless them all, may their names live forever in our minds and hearts. Lisbon 5, Genocide Commandos, ASALA, ASA...by all names, they are all my brothers and sisters, who had enough of getting spit in the face by denialist turks and dared to give one small aptak back, one at a time.

You dam armenians call terrorists as brothers?? This is your nature I am not surprised.

You idiots stop trying to tell lies about the current situation in Turkey. Turkish army is not killing civilians but fighting terrorists on the mountains.
According to the turkish constitution, anyone can found a TV or radio broadcasting in Kurdish as long as they dont broadcast anything against the stability of the state. If nobody is trying to embark on such a thing it is not the fault of the Turkish government


I normally dont speak bad words but you idiots deserve it. You deserve it because for the last 5 days more than 10 Turkish soldiers have been killed by terrorists including armenians. Yesterday some characterless puppet terrorists killed an officer and a soldier with mines set up on the road. I am sure you terrorist minded armenians get happy when you read this sentence. But what you dont know is that in the funeral, his son was proud of his father who died for his land and he carried the Turkish flag proud during all funeral till they buried his father.

We have still armenian terrorism in my country, azerians still have armenian terrorism in their country. So Stop mention about your fukin oldies. I am fed up with your false lies.

What I concluded from all those conversations is that the number of the reasonable armenians is as small as the number of the good looking armenians. As if God put a sign for your betrayal and continuous lies on your faces. You ugly goblins made me as aggressive and unreasonable as you. Anyone believing your stories far from any proof is as ignorant as you.

One day those countries hosting you will find out what kind of trouble they have but it will be too late. Then I will be laughing my asse off.

Kokune soktuumunun ermenileri.

wolverinex2
04-12-2006, 04:41 AM
It's funny that not even within the hostage community of Armenians in Turkey they are constantly trying to get Armenians to say there was no such thing, but not even in TUrkey, as racist as it is, as persecuted as anti-nationalists are, can they find one Armenian who will say 'it didnt happen'. At best, they can find, among the hostage community (of which I have family there) someone to say 'history doesnt matter'.

There is no day on which you dont add another lie to your dam lies. How can people believe while you are lying apparently in almost every post for the sake of blaming us. How could EU would gave date for negotiations a country in which people are killed daily for no reason and others are persecuated to deny fuking genocide story? . I know it makes you sick that 70.000 armenians in Turkey say what you say is a fukin lie to get some profits.. You idiot, Turkey even didnt executed the head of terrorists who organized the terrorist group PKK (condemned by all european countries, USA, and all other countries probably excluding armenia) and caused deaths of 30,000 people after arresting him. In america a killer of a few persons are executed despite the protest of the thousands of people. How can you claim there are no human rights in Turkey. I am really tired of hearing your smears about my country everyday. You fukin russian toys.

I WILL MAKE IT CLEAR, considering we did genocide, we still kill thousands of kurds daily, we killed asyrans, greeks, etc. We abuse human rights, we persecuate people. SO WHAT? SO FUKIN WHAT? WHAT CAN YOU IDIOT ARMENIANS DO?

You fukin idiots dont even realize you are still used like puppets. Who care about poor armenians that much? Huh? Cant you see you have no money, you have no oil, you have no a strategical land, you have no population for a potential power? Wake up wrecked pawns. We live in a capitalist world. You have nothing, you are nothing. That is simple that much.


So why ? You are just puppets
Well, of course' you believe people do that for human rights ... bla bla bla. Tell it to my dead body.

JYD
04-12-2006, 05:31 PM
Give me some proof you jackases. You have been tellin this story for almost 1 century and you still dont know why only a few countries recognised that despite all your efforts and lobby works. Because these smears dont have any proof.
You just tell stories. You all are really shameless. If I did something you did, I wouldnt dare to look at the face of a Turk.

You all ignorants come and say what your parents or grandparents say. They are not different from you. Of course they told you what you will tell your children. You are the fruits of their propaganda. So their mentality is not expected to be different from yours as that of our parents are not different from ours.

That is why I say, give me some proofs and stop what your parents told you. Besides, stop insulting my people, no nation on this earth desires to be insulted by betrayars.

Anyway, I have presented several proofs in my previous posts. If you have, you do the same tooand stop telling about your oldies.

Who are these turkish proffessors? what are their names?
COnsidering you say the truth, OMG what a dilemma that is? Thousands of turkish professors and others from other nations say the opposite you dont even care what they say, but 3 professors say what you say and you praise them. You are real ignorant, uneducated idiots. Every sentence of yours sinks you deeper.



Well you mean a few armenian betrayed Turks and all armenians were percetucated? eventually????

Bull****. There was a volunteer armenian army of 150.000 soldiers, attacking Turkish army on the line and flattering the asess of russians. Another 60,000 armenians were raiding the villages.

More than 200,000 armenian armed terrorists (not civilian) existed there, you call it a few???

Of course every country would do the same. The banishment was what betrayers deserved. And people kept fighting armenians for their revenge, for their murdered babies, wifes, and parents. If there was a turkish army attack on armenians, today there wouldnt be any armenian to remember those days. Your parents were the survivors of a civil war not a genocide.
I'm speechless. I wish all that the turks accuse us of doing was true.

JYD
04-12-2006, 05:33 PM
You dam armenians call terrorists as brothers?? This is your nature I am not surprised.

You idiots stop trying to tell lies about the current situation in Turkey. Turkish army is not killing civilians but fighting terrorists on the mountains.
According to the turkish constitution, anyone can found a TV or radio broadcasting in Kurdish as long as they dont broadcast anything against the stability of the state. If nobody is trying to embark on such a thing it is not the fault of the Turkish government


I normally dont speak bad words but you idiots deserve it. You deserve it because for the last 5 days more than 10 Turkish soldiers have been killed by terrorists including armenians. Yesterday some characterless puppet terrorists killed an officer and a soldier with mines set up on the road. I am sure you terrorist minded armenians get happy when you read this sentence. But what you dont know is that in the funeral, his son was proud of his father who died for his land and he carried the Turkish flag proud during all funeral till they buried his father.

We have still armenian terrorism in my country, azerians still have armenian terrorism in their country. So Stop mention about your fukin oldies. I am fed up with your false lies.

What I concluded from all those conversations is that the number of the reasonable armenians is as small as the number of the good looking armenians. As if God put a sign for your betrayal and continuous lies on your faces. You ugly goblins made me as aggressive and unreasonable as you. Anyone believing your stories far from any proof is as ignorant as you.

One day those countries hosting you will find out what kind of trouble they have but it will be too late. Then I will be laughing my asse off.

Kokune soktuumunun ermenileri.
More lies I had to quote, to prevent you from editing later and denying.
May the Kurdish freedom fighters make many turkish mothers cry.

JYD
04-12-2006, 05:35 PM
There is no day on which you dont add another lie to your dam lies. How can people believe while you are lying apparently in almost every post for the sake of blaming us. How could EU would gave date for negotiations a country in which people are killed daily for no reason and others are persecuated to deny fuking genocide story? . I know it makes you sick that 70.000 armenians in Turkey say what you say is a fukin lie to get some profits.. You idiot, Turkey even didnt executed the head of terrorists who organized the terrorist group PKK (condemned by all european countries, USA, and all other countries probably excluding armenia) and caused deaths of 30,000 people after arresting him. In america a killer of a few persons are executed despite the protest of the thousands of people. How can you claim there are no human rights in Turkey. I am really tired of hearing your smears about my country everyday. You fukin russian toys.

I WILL MAKE IT CLEAR, considering we did genocide, we still kill thousands of kurds daily, we killed asyrans, greeks, etc. We abuse human rights, we persecuate people. SO WHAT? SO FUKIN WHAT? WHAT CAN YOU IDIOT ARMENIANS DO?

You fukin idiots dont even realize you are still used like puppets. Who care about poor armenians that much? Huh? Cant you see you have no money, you have no oil, you have no a strategical land, you have no population for a potential power? Wake up wrecked pawns. We live in a capitalist world. You have nothing, you are nothing. That is simple that much.


So why ? You are just puppets
Well, of course' you believe people do that for human rights ... bla bla bla. Tell it to my dead body.more lies I had to quote...to prevent you from editing later. Should you ever come to Southern California, be sure to express yourself freely about Armenians as you do on teh internet, ok? ;)

Have a nice day.


my dead body.
Inshallah.

A & B
04-12-2006, 07:15 PM
You guys speak of the kurds as if they are truly a different ethnic group.

Kurds are Iranians...cut to the chase and they are one and the same.

You have made two mistakes here:

First, "Iranian" is a nationality correct? I believe "Iranic" is an ethnicity though, I could be wrong however.
Second, Kurds are an ethnicity unto themselves.

There are Kurds in Iran, as there are in Iraq, Syria but primarily Turkey.

They are the worlds largest ethnicity (27 or 28 million) without a state of their own. They are in fact, an ethnicity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds

Kurdistan should be a nation-state.

Iranian_Mugger
04-12-2006, 07:18 PM
You have made two mistakes here:

First, "Iranian" is a nationality correct? I believe "Iranic" is an ethnicity though, I could be wrong however.
Second, Kurds are an ethnicity unto themselves.

There are Kurds in Iran, as there are in Iraq, Syria but primarily Turkey.

They are the worlds largest ethnicity (27 or 28 million) without a state of their own. They are in fact, an ethnicity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds

Kurdistan should be a nation-state.


sorry about deleting that post, I didn't know you responded to it,

Iranian is not a ethnicity. Persian is. Iranian consists of Persians, Azeris, Kurds, Arabs and others.

Kurds are Iranian.

I believe all of the so-called Kurdistan should belong to Iran, as well as Azerbaijan(used to be). Too many small states in the region.

A & B
04-12-2006, 07:25 PM
sorry about deleting that post, I didn't know you responded to it,

Iranian is not a ethnicity. Persian is. Iranian consists of Persians, Azeris, Kurds, Arabs and others.

Kurds are Iranian.

I believe all of the so-called Kurdistan should belong to Iran, as well as Azerbaijan(used to be). Too many small states in the region.

I didn't say "Iranian" was an ethnicity, I said "Iranic"... like "Turkish" (nationality) and "Turkik" (sp?) (ethnicity).

And I know of the ethnic makeup of Iran.

Some Kurds are Iranian. Some are Turkish, some are Iraqi, some are Syrian... But these are all nationalities.

It is a recognized fact that Kurds comprise an ethnic group. This is not my opinion, it is not an opinion, it is a recognized fact: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds

So you think all of Kurdistan should be Iranian eh? You sound nostalgic. Do many of you Iranians really want to recapture the glory of Persia? I have heard this.

Iranian_Mugger
04-12-2006, 07:31 PM
I didn't say "Iranian" was an ethnicity, I said "Iranic"... like "Turkish" (nationality) and "Turkik" (sp?) (ethnicity).

And I know of the ethnic makeup of Iran.

Some Kurds are Iranian. Some are Turkish, some are Iraqi, some are Syrian... But these are all nationalities.

It is a recognized fact that Kurds comprise an ethnic group. This is not my opinion, it is not an opinion, it is a recognized fact: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds



So you think all of Kurdistan should be Iranian eh? You sound nostalgic. Do many of you Iranians really want to recapture the glory of Persia? I have heard this.

Turkic* is the ethnicity

Most Iranians want all the kurds in their country(without unrest of course), this is true...after all the Kurds are more closely related to the Persians than any other group out there. I don't really care about recapturing the Persia, but I do want Azerbaijan annexed again(I am also part Azeri).

wolverinex2
04-12-2006, 09:37 PM
More lies I had to quote, to prevent you from editing later and denying.
May the Kurdish freedom fighters make many turkish mothers cry.

Well all my edits were to correct the gramatical errors.

I see you armenians dont hesitate to call any terrorist group as brothers or freedom fighters. So you obviously admit your being terrorist or supporter of them. From the terrorists captured by Turkish army, we already knew many armenians were also terrorists but it is good that other people also witness that now.

Besides, not only in southern california but also in armenia I can announce loudly what I am saying here. Death is more honoured than fearing betrayers. You believe any Turkish is afraid of any armenian? You armenians even cannot dare to face a Turkish after all your sneaky acts. Comedian guys

wolverinex2
04-12-2006, 09:46 PM
Turkic* is the ethnicity

Most Iranians want all the kurds in their country(without unrest of course), this is true...after all the Kurds are more closely related to the Persians than any other group out there. I don't really care about recapturing the Persia, but I do want Azerbaijan annexed again(I am also part Azeri).

What kind of azeri you are???? Azeris are Turkish and You want to be ruled by persians???? I am really skeptic that you are part azeri. Besides, there is not a weak relationship between kurds and persians.

The highest population of kurds are in Turkey and we all are in the same religion and in the same sect, sunni.
I will cientifically explain more about the origin of the kurdish when I am at home (all data at my personal comp). Well maybe I should open a new thread about this.
But I am pretty sure there are kurdish villages in north middle asia and Kurd is an old Turk letter.

Iranian_Mugger
04-13-2006, 07:33 AM
What kind of azeri you are???? Azeris are Turkish and You want to be ruled by persians???? I am really skeptic that you are part azeri. Besides, there is not a weak relationship between kurds and persians.

The highest population of kurds are in Turkey and we all are in the same religion and in the same sect, sunni.
I will cientifically explain more about the origin of the kurdish when I am at home (all data at my personal comp). Well maybe I should open a new thread about this.
But I am pretty sure there are kurdish villages in north middle asia and Kurd is an old Turk letter.


This is debatable...nobody really knows for sure if Azeris are more Turkish(migrated from central asia) or Iranian. Azeris are believed to be Iranian peoples who simply changed their language following Turkic invasions. But, they could also be indigenous to the causcasus.

read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeri


Everyone in this region now are hodge-podges so it really doesn't mean anything...Iranian is turkish, turkish is iranian, arab is iranian, azeri is turkish, iranian is arab, azeri is iranian....and so on. Even the Armenians are mixed in as well.

bb4life123
04-13-2006, 08:48 AM
wolve you are an ignorant dirty piece of **** who should not be alive. How can it be made up if alot of the victims are still ****ing alive you douchebag. At least shut the fuk up and respect all the people that have died instead of denying it.

bb4life123
04-13-2006, 08:50 AM
Even the Armenians are mixed in as well.


unfortunetly now yes... those dirty fuking turks had to mix in with the armenian women, and now all the armenian women are ugly cuz of those dirty ass mother ****ers.

wolverinex2
04-13-2006, 10:08 AM
unfortunetly now yes... those dirty fuking turks had to mix in with the armenian women, and now all the armenian women are ugly cuz of those dirty ass mother ****ers.

You mean you are part Turkish? So what is this hatred? LMAO.
C mon dude, Turkish people are really good looking, believe me I dont say it coz I am a Turk. If we had touched you, you would be looking better. No way. You are still pure ugly armenian

wolverinex2
04-13-2006, 10:09 AM
wolve you are an ignorant dirty piece of **** who should not be alive. How can it be made up if alot of the victims are still ****ing alive you douchebag. At least shut the fuk up and respect all the people that have died instead of denying it.

Besides, there are 70 million people thinking like me. They all shouldnt be alive
? You want a turkish genocide? lol

wolverinex2
04-13-2006, 10:31 AM
hey guys we better stop posting in this thread. It already went off topic. It is flaming more than discussing. I am tired of descend the level of you guys.

PEACE ,,!,,

skinnyfred
04-13-2006, 11:28 AM
unfortunetly now yes... those dirty fuking turks had to mix in with the armenian women, and now all the armenian women are ugly cuz of those dirty ass mother ****ers. LOL, have you even seen a Turkish woman?

bb4life123
04-13-2006, 12:02 PM
lmfao bud i'd jump off a bridge if i had even 1% turk in me. Im pure armenian and not gonna argue that im better looking than u cuz its the internet lmfao.

Iranian_Mugger
04-13-2006, 12:30 PM
lmfao bud i'd jump off a bridge if i had even 1% turk in me. Im pure armenian and not gonna argue that im better looking than u cuz its the internet lmfao.


Nobody is pure anything today. We are all hodge-podges.

dodigago
04-13-2006, 04:18 PM
I love wolverines arguement

he doesnt believe any pictures, first hand accounts, journals by BI PARISTAN GROUPS(ala German embassy, American embassy letters and memos)

all these people must be a part of a huge consipiracy

"give me proof"


what a moron - just because he didnt see it with his own eyes he doesnt believe it and everyone must be lying

because u know, a group that has killed over 10 millions christians in the last 200 years couldnt do any harm to anyone right?

:rolleyes:

Tae Kwon
04-13-2006, 08:07 PM
according to ethnologists armenians have their own sub category in the caucasian race along with slavics and germanics called armenoid. I hope they start having higher birth rates because their is only what, 2 million of them, such a shame that damn genocide was.

wolverinex2
04-14-2006, 06:49 AM
I love wolverines arguement

he doesnt believe any pictures, first hand accounts, journals by BI PARISTAN GROUPS(ala German embassy, American embassy letters and memos)

all these people must be a part of a huge consipiracy

"give me proof"


what a moron - just because he didnt see it with his own eyes he doesnt believe it and everyone must be lying

because u know, a group that has killed over 10 millions christians in the last 200 years couldnt do any harm to anyone right?

:rolleyes:

Ahahahaha. You are a real comedian man, you must be a clown. This is the new conspiracy? After killing ARMENIAN, ASSYRIAN, CHALDEAN, ARAB (Syrians, Iraqi, Peninsula Arabs), KURDS, GREEK, CYPRIOT GREEKS, BULGARIANS all our neighbors, now 10 million christians. I bet this guy works hard at home everyday to find some new nations to blame Turkey for killing them. Anyway I dont take what you guys say serious anymore. Hopefully an educated armenian appears and we can have a high level discussion with him scientifically without flaming.
Whatever. You have your proofs but if you dont accept them as proof, so be it

PEACE

Iranian_Mugger
04-14-2006, 07:10 AM
according to ethnologists armenians have their own sub category in the caucasian race along with slavics and germanics called armenoid. I hope they start having higher birth rates because their is only what, 2 million of them, such a shame that damn genocide was.


provide a link please...not denying it at all, but this sort of stuff interests me highly.

bb4life123
04-14-2006, 07:59 AM
Ahahahaha. You are a real comedian man, you must be a clown. This is the new conspiracy? After killing ARMENIAN, ASSYRIAN, CHALDEAN, ARAB (Syrians, Iraqi, Peninsula Arabs), KURDS, GREEK, CYPRIOT GREEKS, BULGARIANS all our neighbors, now 10 million christians. I bet this guy works hard at home everyday to find some new nations to blame Turkey for killing them. Anyway I dont take what you guys say serious anymore. Hopefully an educated armenian appears and we can have a high level discussion with him scientifically without flaming.
Whatever. You have your proofs but if you dont accept them as proof, so be it

PEACE

ur just being ignorant now... go do some research. easy way out is denying it

wolverinex2
04-14-2006, 10:02 AM
ur just being ignorant now... go do some research. easy way out is denying it

Ok kids. Game is over, now go back home. Leave this place for matures who want to discuss seriously. Plz I am very serious. It is enough. Go talk about girls, school, the new PC game you bought or anything else. This is not something you can deal with. I know about history and ethnicity more than your scholars do. As hobby, while people had birds or fish, I read history. So stop this pointless flaming and post if you really have something to discuss.

wolverinex2
04-14-2006, 10:09 AM
provide a link please...not denying it at all, but this sort of stuff interests me highly.

Man I also claimed Kurds were another clan of ancient turk clans. I also want to mention about the ethnic situation in Turkey: Since many people who have never been to Turkey claimed several bad things about kurds and Turkey, I feel I have to mention about it.
If this post is also spoiled ignorantly by swearing and bad talking I will open a new thread about this and you are welcome there. It seems you have manners to discuss maturely.


Turks do not have a PROBLEM with "Kurds", and believe necessary adjustments can be made through democratic means to handle any problems. This confidence rests on various facts such as:
(a) the fact that all Turkish Kurds are Turkish citizens with equal rights in all aspects;
(b) the fact that most of the people of "Kurdish origin" accept themselves as "Turkish" in terms of primary feelings of belonging i.e. as citizens who also think of themselves and "feel" Turkish -- This group has been particularly targeted for PKK violence.;
(c) the fact that in spite of the externally driven bloody PKK activities and consequent human pain, "Turks" and "Kurds" in Turkiye are able to isolate the PKK terrorizm problem refusing to hate each other;
(d) the fact that "Kurds" and "Turks" are thoroughly mingled culturally, biologically, and geographically;
(e) the fact that they share 1000 years of common Selchuk and Ottoman history-- and possibly, (f) two thousands or more years of common history!

wolverinex2
04-14-2006, 10:14 AM
according to ethnologists armenians have their own sub category in the caucasian race along with slavics and germanics called armenoid. I hope they start having higher birth rates because their is only what, 2 million of them, such a shame that damn genocide was.


As a part of the effort to drive Turks out of Anatolia, the West has undoubtedly done their best to create a fourth entity in the region different from Turks, Arabs, and Persians; and consequently there has been intense academic interest for a long time, particularly during the 19th century. Basically, there has been an effort to show that Kurdish people are native to the region while "Turks" are latecomers to be driven out.

Precisely, due to this effort, it is worth considering the history of "Turks"... True enough, Chinese sources refer to Turks dating back to 1582 BC in Asia, and Turks are known to be involved in the founding of in excess of a dozen states or Empires. As part of this long story, Turks have been in Anatolia in overwhelming numbers for the last 1000 years. There is; however,substantial findings that Turks have been in Anatolia since 4000-2000 BC. Sumer, Elam, Kalde, Guti, Urartu groups have been shown to have Asian roots. Ural-Altai languages such as Hungarian and Turkish share words with Sumerian... Carved on tablets, we read about the 17 Anatolian kings joining forces against the Akadian king Naram-Sin, one of whom is Turki. Likewise on 13 tablets, we read about the Turukku tribes... The predominantly Turkish Iskit-Saka states begin in 8th century BC, lasts a 1000 years and extends down to te Zagros mountains etc etc etc...On the other hand, Korfman's findings (1999) even cast doubts on the Greek identity of Trojans who are shown to speak an Anatolian language, Luvi. The point of the foregoing is not to identify the mentioned ancient civilizations as Turkish as they were more than likely conglomerates of many people. Turkish history is too rich to need this kind of effort. The purpose is simply to point to the depth of Anatolian cultures, and to point out the absurdity of efforts trying to pin the identify modern Kurdish people to such roots while ignoring the undoubtable presence of Turkish people in ancient Anatolia.

With respect to " feelings of belonging", and cultural groupings, the only criteria for who one is, is who one claims to be. The Kurdish identity today does not depend on race or roots, but on a unity of culture and feeling. Nevertheless, it is a fact worth noting that Kurdish and Turkish cultures are almost indistinguishable. So much so in fact that except for perhaps the diversity of languages, it is impossible to differentiate between the Kurdish and Turkish cultures regardless of the parameters of culture one looks at - ie. songs, sayings, dances, foods, marriages, religion, remaining shamanistic beliefs, the 12-animals calender etc -- there seems to be a single culture. This does not detract from the fact that, presently, there is an authentic and identifiable Kurdish identity.

There are numerous theories -- none with much credibility and most politically motivated-- regarding the roots of Kurdish people. Some of them are that they are descendant from Karduk, Med-Scythian, Karvetian, Guti, Hitites, Hurries, Mannai, Mittani, Subari, Nayri, Cyrti, Urartu, Lulu, Lur, Khaldi, Kassit etc. While it is not very fashionable in some circles, there is also a possibility that the roots of the Turks and the Kurds are one and the same. The word "k.ü.r.t" is found only in Turkish sources. Kurds are not restricted to the Middle East, but live and have lived on a very wide geographical area. However; Kurds are only found in regions dominated by Turks and Scythians (The Scythians are a group that consist primarily Turkish tribes) a geography that includes the Caucuses, Afganistan-Horasan, Dagistan, Yenisey, Arabia, Altai, Hungary regions -- all locations where Kurds have been found... Until the 12th century, history has no record of a people referred to as "Kurd" or a region referred to as "Kurdistan" in Turkiye, Iran, Iraq or Syria regions EXCEPT for the Turkish homeland in the Yenisey region, we find the first reference to the word "kurd"... According to Professor DeGroot's findings; the earliest recorded references to either Turk or Kurd with the EXACT CURRENT SPELLINGS go back to 700 AD, to the first monuments inscribed in runic Turkish; whereas, in the West, first references to Kurdish villages are around the 11th century but not in the Middle East. The 11th century Kurdish villages are in the midst of Ongur (Hungar) Turks in Hungary... In the 12th century the Oguz Turkish Selchuk Sultan fo the first time refers to "Kurdistan" as an administrative unit in Iran. The word "Kurt" arrives in the MiddleEast with the coming of the Oguz Turks.

The inscription on the "Eleges" memorial stone (732 AD) found in Yenisey (China) bears --in the Turkish of that time-- "Men Kürt el-kanı Alp-Urungu..." or in current Turkish "Ben Kürt hanı Alp-Unrungu.", or in English " I, the Kurdish Kahn, Alp-Unrungu", and the name Alp-Unrungu is itself Turkish. Other memorials in Turkish from the same period, the Orhun memorials contain no less than 532 words (a large number compared to the available vocabulary) that are no longer used in Anatolian Turkish but are in current use in Anatolian Kurdish dialects. Turkish is the only language in which the word “kürt” has a meaning, and one of the 24 grandsons of Oguz Khan, the mythological founder of the Turks, was “Kürt”.

In Eastern Turkey, the clan-type cultural organization has continued to the present. According to the observations of Ziya Gokalp-- a famous theoretician of Turkish nationalism who is himself of "Kurdish" origin-- many are the Kurdish clans that have become Turkish—ie forgotten Kurdish… And many are the Turkish clans that have "forgotten" Turkish to become Kurdish. One example is the Turkan tribe members who unequivocally state that they are of “Turkish” origin in Kurdish… It is a well known fact that a portion of Avsars, Dogers, the Kalac, the Kiki, and the Karakeci are are a few more of the bona-fide Oguz Turkish tribes that have become Kurdified.

None of this is meant to deny the modern Kurdish identity. To reitrate, with respect to " feelings of belonging", and cultural group identity, the only criteria for who one is, is who one claims to be. The Kurdish identity today does not depend on race or roots, but on a unity of culture and feeling. Kurdish Turks are just as much a part of Turkiye as Laz, Arab, Cerkez etc Turks. All are citizens of Turkiye with equal rights prepared to solve existing difficulties and move into a bright future. Turkish citizens, despite neighbouring trouble-makers or PKK will vote with ballots not with bullets. Is it not very obvious that Turkiye can handle any internal issues very quickly provided Greece, Southern Cyprus, Syria etc would stop scratching the wounds of their neighbours?

wolverinex2
04-14-2006, 10:25 AM
The previous post are taken from

http://internettrash.com/users/pkk/a-faq17.html

Anyone who is interested in history and nations must hear the famous KOKTURK ORHUN MEMORIALS (APPROX. 700 AD). SIMILAR MEMORIALS IN
YENISEY MAY BE THE FIRST KURDISH MEMORIAL!!!

Memorial Stones of the first Turkish empire containing the word "Turk" in its name. Memorial stones erected in Yenisey by the Kokturks have the first reference to the word "kürt" (kurd)...
The Kokturk glossary includes 500+ words used in Anatolian Kurdish dialects.

bb4life123
04-14-2006, 03:59 PM
bud ur just posting a whole bunch of nonesense which has nothing to do with anything

skinnyfred
04-14-2006, 06:35 PM
^^Is the text to complex for you to comprehend? You're the only person in this thread that is posting nonsense.

wolverinex2
04-14-2006, 07:49 PM
Ask your ugly moms, kids. They will explain what sense they make, you small idiots.

I didnt expect you to understand, that is why I talked to iranian mugger and tae kwon. I alredy warned you idiots it is not something you can deal with.

The Rob
04-14-2006, 11:35 PM
according to ethnologists armenians have their own sub category in the caucasian race along with slavics and germanics called armenoid. I hope they start having higher birth rates because their is only what, 2 million of them, such a shame that damn genocide was.


7 million actually............

as for you, wolverinex2, man you are deluded, but it's forgiveable since you're a Turk and just repeating what you've been led to believe about your people.

wolverinex2
04-15-2006, 12:32 AM
7 million actually............

as for you, wolverinex2, man you are deluded, but it's forgiveable since you're a Turk and just repeating what you've been led to believe about your people.

No dude, I havent learnt what I know from someone directly. Believe me I never support something unless I am quite sure about the reality of that thing and unless I believe I searched enough about it and have enough background to discuss it. If you realised I rarely refer to Turkish sourtces in my posts. I usually search foreign sources to make sure the neutrality of the knowledge.

I am not one of the people who just log in bb.com and say

Ohh yeah, wolverine posted again. Lets give it a **** and post a message telling he is an ignorant and what he writes doesnt make any sense without reading it. No man, it is not me whom you describe, not me.

I will open a new thread about kurdish Turks and I will give tons of proofs and researches. So bad Turkish government never paid attention on this subject. So bad

PEACE

JYD
04-15-2006, 07:20 AM
No dude, I havent learnt what I know from someone directly.
Kopek, every Armenian on this Earth are DIRECT DESCENDANTS of SURVIVORS. All my grandparents relatives were murdered on both sides. Those who lived in Western Ottoman areas under Atatuk suffered a worse fate than death. THESE ARE ALSO DIRECT TESTIMONIES OF FIRST HAND ACCOUNTS.



Lets see:
testimony of accused versus testimony of accusor.

Lets see:

what does the rest of the world say?
GUILTY

What do other ethnicities say, who are also witnesses?
GUILTY

What do you have to say?
MOOT. Like The Rob said, you're just parroting the garbage you've been fed. Ask your 'source' about the notice published by Ottomans and Atatuk and posted in all towns and villages in the East about "what happened will not be talked about"...:rolleyes: Even Atatuk had admitted to its existence while the ****phile dictator was still alive.

Iranian_Mugger
04-15-2006, 07:21 AM
I will open a new thread about kurdish Turks and I will give tons of proofs and researches. So bad Turkish government never paid attention on this subject. So bad

PEACE


Do it...Im in.

wolverinex2
04-15-2006, 08:33 AM
Kopek, every Armenian on this Earth are DIRECT DESCENDANTS of SURVIVORS. All my grandparents relatives were murdered on both sides. Those who lived in Western Ottoman areas under Atatuk suffered a worse fate than death. THESE ARE ALSO DIRECT TESTIMONIES OF FIRST HAND ACCOUNTS.



Lets see:
testimony of accused versus testimony of accusor.

Lets see:

what does the rest of the world say?
GUILTY

What do other ethnicities say, who are also witnesses?
GUILTY

What do you have to say?
MOOT. Like The Rob said, you're just parroting the garbage you've been fed. Ask your 'source' about the notice published by Ottomans and Atatuk and posted in all towns and villages in the East about "what happened will not be talked about"...:rolleyes: Even Atatuk had admitted to its existence while the ****phile dictator was still alive.

Really? OMG what a dramatic story

wolverinex2
04-15-2006, 08:39 AM
Do it...Im in.

k man I will start with taking my post about kurds from here to the new thread. ı would love to see your posts there too. Hopefully we will have a good convo there and have a chance to improve our knowledge
I will leave this thread these kids. BTW, ignorants are not welcome there. And I dont wanna hear about your grandpas anymore. You can keep posting here.

BTW, itogluit JYD Say hello to your schizophrenic grandpa.

sak sak turizmin yavsak yolcuları (I really like to say this the people who make me laugh)

bb4life123
04-16-2006, 12:26 PM
go jump off a bridge douchebag, as everyone said i cant be too mad at u since your dirty ass country has been feeding you all those lies, but at least i can laugh at ur stupidity

JYD
04-16-2006, 05:28 PM
go jump off a bridge douchebag, as everyone said i cant be too mad at u since your dirty ass country has been feeding you all those lies, but at least i can laugh at ur stupidity
It's because of 'wolverines' like this kopek, that made ASALA possible.
Havidyan abri amen herosneri anouner.

wolverinex2
04-17-2006, 12:19 AM
It's because of 'wolverines' like this kopek, that made ASALA possible.
Havidyan abri amen herosneri anouner.

Nostalgic terrorist

wolverinex2
04-18-2006, 12:46 AM
basically... starting a fight here about wat happend isnt gonna do anything...i have no hate towards turkish people
just forgive but dont forget




go jump off a bridge douchebag, as everyone said i cant be too mad at u since your dirty ass country has been feeding you all those lies, but at least i can laugh at ur stupidity

Two faced

RazorsEdge
04-18-2006, 12:56 AM
unfortunetly now yes... those dirty fuking turks had to mix in with the armenian women, and now all the armenian women are ugly cuz of those dirty ass mother ****ers.

Hey now! My wife is half Turkish!

bb4life123
04-18-2006, 01:47 PM
Two faced

i dont have anything against turks who dont deny the genocide, but if ur gonna be an ******* and deny it then u can suck my fuking dick

wolverinex2
04-20-2006, 03:42 AM
i dont have anything against turks who dont deny the genocide, but if ur gonna be an ******* and deny it then u can suck my fuking dick

Genocide is only a big lie of the traitors. Those idiots commemorate it on 24 April. The order for relocation of armenians were announced on 26 May. On 24 April, your big ducks were arrested who were preparing to assasinate Turkish statemen so armenians lost their dickheads who were believed to lead them to the freedom. lol. Fuking losers.
If it was not a big dam lie you would commemorate it on 26 May.
Another thing, You backstabbers talk about motherland but armenia is almost deserted. This is your patriotism. None of you even loves his country. (To be frank with you, I cannot say you are not right. It is kinda desert)

JYD
04-20-2006, 12:46 PM
Genocide is only a big lie of the traitors. Those idiots commemorate it on 24 April. The order for relocation of armenians were announced on 26 May. On 24 April, your big ducks were arrested who were preparing to assasinate Turkish statemen so armenians lost their dickheads who were believed to lead them to the freedom. lol. Fuking losers.
If it was not a big dam lie you would commemorate it on 26 May.
Another thing, You backstabbers talk about motherland but armenia is almost deserted. This is your patriotism. None of you even loves his country. (To be frank with you, I cannot say you are not right. It is kinda desert)
Listen orospu kopek, you killed PRIESTS and TEACHERS and COMMUNITY LEADERS, not 'rebels'. NO ARMENIANS supported Russia because Russia NEVER offered independence to us. The only thing that happened is that some decided to defend themselves along the frontier from turk and kurd gangs.

Armenia used to be a great region of the Ottoman Empire. It is deserted today BY PLAN. Traitors? We didn't kill innocent civilians like the Ottomans and Kemalists (TURKS). You killed mothers and children...raped very frequenty. We have eye-witnesses who survived. THey are still alive (By Gods Grace). You have nothing but propaganda.

Asdvadz kezi badche, pis shun.

bb4life123
04-20-2006, 04:05 PM
lmfao not patriotic? armenian ppl are one of most patriotic ppl in world. How can it be deserted when its such a small country you douche? How can u even talk when dirt bag turks like u raped pregnant women. Animals don't even do that... i guess raping and killing pregnant women gets u ****ers off

The Rob
04-20-2006, 04:53 PM
http://www.pbs.org/ombudsman/2006/03/coming_soon_to_viewers_like_you_the_armenian.html

pbs did a show on the Armenian genocide, they even included 2 Turkish historians who deny it ever took place. But overall it strongly in favor of the Armenian cause.

The Rob
04-20-2006, 04:53 PM
http://www.pbs.org/ombudsman/2006/03/coming_soon_to_viewers_like_you_the_armenian.html

pbs did a show on the Armenian genocide, they even included 2 Turkish historians who deny it ever took place. But overall it strongly in favor of the Armenian cause.

JYD
04-20-2006, 05:33 PM
http://www.pbs.org/ombudsman/2006/03/coming_soon_to_viewers_like_you_the_armenian.html

pbs did a show on the Armenian genocide, they even included 2 Turkish historians who deny it ever took place. But overall it strongly in favor of the Armenian cause.
I saw it in the movie theater earlier this week (there was a screening in my area). It was not biased and extremely objective. I was even offended by some of its points, but in general, it made it clear that it was genocide, a government plan to extreminate a group of people. It was produced by a non-Armenian, and as usual, it also presented the denialist perspective (probably to show how absurd it is).

It was very objective. Not once did I feel the need for revenge, as I did when I saw the movie Ararat (which is a fictional movie that brings up the genocide).

JYD
04-20-2006, 05:38 PM
I love wolverines arguement

he doesnt believe any pictures, first hand accounts, journals by BI PARISTAN GROUPS(ala German embassy, American embassy letters and memos)

all these people must be a part of a huge consipiracy

"give me proof"


what a moron - just because he didnt see it with his own eyes he doesnt believe it and everyone must be lying

because u know, a group that has killed over 10 millions christians in the last 200 years couldnt do any harm to anyone right?

:rolleyes:
Dude, I'll give you $500 if you can find me a turk to will say the things that Wolverine says to my face. I'm 100% serious.

skinnyfred
04-20-2006, 06:06 PM
^^LOL, why did you negative rep me? You idiot, if you're so obsessed with Armenia why don't you get the **** out of the US and go to your home land. LOL @ your $500 threat. Calm down dere e-thug.

JYD
04-20-2006, 06:39 PM
^^LOL, why did you negative rep me? You idiot, if you're so obsessed with Armenia why don't you get the **** out of the US and go to your home land. LOL @ your $500 threat. Calm down dere e-thug.
Maybe because I don't like racists. Here's what YOUR neg rep came with, in the comment box:

"Go back to Armenia you stupid ****. You talk so much, but I bet you wouldn't even live there. A majority of you Armenias are all the same. You talk about your pride and how you love your culture, but yet you wouldn't step foot in your own countr"

I'm not from Armenia, moron...but I wish I was. All around the world, people are starting to distinguish the economic / military strength the US has, and the stupidity of most of its population, and I'd rather be in a weaker, poor nation (almost any nation, even Mexico) than one with a society with so many passive/aggresive racist moron idiots like you. I definitely wont retire here or raise kids here (I'll leave that for you). I'd go further to describe the differences between the US and the rest of the world, but civility is something you people just cant comprehend. You even think you have it. The most ignorant of all think the US is the leader in civility ( :D I cant even type that without laughing out loud).

Spare me your racist jibberish. This thread is about history and guilt, and you, mr pro america, should shut the f up. Why dont you go listen to your super smart teachers teach you how great America is, how Pearl Harbor was a 'sneak attack' despite the fact that radar existed since 1933 for the US Navy and the Japanese code had already been broken and the attack message had been decoded weeks earlier. Go listen to your mass media about how they cant find Bin Laden, despite the fact that Sudans President offered him to the US and the US turned it down, and that months after the reward announcement for his head, it was leaked to teh Washington Post that it was all b.s. since they had (for years) been listening in on Bin Ladens Satellite phone, knowing his exact GPS the whole damn time.

Oh yeah, I dont know sh.t and AMERICA RULEZ! :rolleyes: you people are pathetic. Its people like you, and the re-election of bush that make it possible to be ashamed of the country I signed up to defend with my life. Skinny Fred, go fu.k yourself and shove all your opinions up your ass. Want to get personal? CAN DO. Want to debate facts? CAN DO. You choose, fu.khead.

skinnyfred
04-20-2006, 07:17 PM
Maybe because I don't like racists. Here's what YOUR neg rep came with, in the comment box:

"Go back to Armenia you stupid ****. You talk so much, but I bet you wouldn't even live there. A majority of you Armenias are all the same. You talk about your pride and how you love your culture, but yet you wouldn't step foot in your own countr"

I'm not from Armenia, moron...but I wish I was. All around the world, people are starting to distinguish the economic / military strength the US has, and the stupidity of most of its population, and I'd rather be in a weaker, poor nation (almost any nation, even Mexico) than one with a society with so many passive/aggresive racist moron idiots like you. I definitely wont retire here or raise kids here (I'll leave that for you). I'd go further to describe the differences between the US and the rest of the world, but civility is something you people just cant comprehend. You even think you have it. The most ignorant of all think the US is the leader in civility ( :D I cant even type that without laughing out loud).

Spare me your racist jibberish. This thread is about history and guilt, and you, mr pro america, should shut the f up. Why dont you go listen to your super smart teachers teach you how great America is, how Pearl Harbor was a 'sneak attack' despite the fact that radar existed since 1933 for the US Navy and the Japanese code had already been broken and the attack message had been decoded weeks earlier. Go listen to your mass media about how they cant find Bin Laden, despite the fact that Sudans President offered him to the US and the US turned it down, and that months after the reward announcement for his head, it was leaked to teh Washington Post that it was all b.s. since they had (for years) been listening in on Bin Ladens Satellite phone, knowing his exact GPS the whole damn time.

Oh yeah, I dont know sh.t and AMERICA RULEZ! :rolleyes: you people are pathetic. Its people like you, and the re-election of bush that make it possible to be ashamed of the country I signed up to defend with my life. Skinny Fred, go fu.k yourself and shove all your opinions up your ass. Want to get personal? CAN DO. Want to debate facts? CAN DO. You choose, fu.khead. Yes, I stand by what I said in my negative rep to you. Firstly, it doesn't matter if you were born here, Mexico or Japan. YOU'RE STILL ARMENIAN. You show so much support and love for your nation, then why don't you just go live there. I don't understand why people come to the US and talk **** about the US. Just leave, go back home to your own land. Secondly, you don't even know me and my positions on the US government, so yeah STFU. LMAO @ your little attempt to make yourself seem like a scholar or look credible with your little Japan history review. Debate facts? So far in those whole thread you have stated nothing, but opinion.

JYD
04-20-2006, 10:23 PM
Yes, I stand by what I said in my negative rep to you. Firstly, it doesn't matter if you were born here, Mexico or Japan. YOU'RE STILL ARMENIAN. You show so much support and love for your nation, then why don't you just go live there. I don't understand why people come to the US and talk **** about the US. Just leave, go back home to your own land. Secondly, you don't even know me and my positions on the US government, so yeah STFU. LMAO @ your little attempt to make yourself seem like a scholar or look credible with your little Japan history review. Debate facts? So far in those whole thread you have stated nothing, but opinion.
http://members.shaw.ca/spudnewt/sierranaked.jpg/badluck.swf

wolverinex2
04-21-2006, 07:39 AM
Listen orospu kopek, you killed PRIESTS and TEACHERS and COMMUNITY LEADERS, not 'rebels'. NO ARMENIANS supported Russia because Russia NEVER offered independence to us. The only thing that happened is that some decided to defend themselves along the frontier from turk and kurd gangs.

Armenia used to be a great region of the Ottoman Empire. It is deserted today BY PLAN. Traitors? We didn't kill innocent civilians like the Ottomans and Kemalists (TURKS). You killed mothers and children...raped very frequenty. We have eye-witnesses who survived. THey are still alive (By Gods Grace). You have nothing but propaganda.

Asdvadz kezi badche, pis shun.

Actually all you killed were civilians. I presented tons of proofs here but you idiots dont want to understand. I am talking throug proofs, you talk with what your oldies taught you.

BTW, last year Turkey offered that a neutral historian comission to be formed and search the event but Armenia refused that. You can keep telling your stinky smears but Turkey is preparing to present all documents in ottoman archive about this issue that will prove how your lies are stinky. There was no place named armenia so stop your fuking lies about a great region.

Oh yea you collaborated with russians. They used you puppets. Besides most of you already told that armenians were deceived by russians. What you guys say even dont match each other. That is because instead of a written source you all learn from your grandparents. You dam losers didnt even know the meaning of the freedom, you lived under mongolian hordes, persia, rome, byzantine and Turks and you suddenly decided to be free without any provacation and aid of russians? Bull****. They deceived you idiots and annexed you to USSR.
You all are traitors. But no I am wrong. Not all of you. There are still some armenians who can think clearly. One is the armenian patriarch in Turkey.
I will post his last speech about the issue.

Until then, peace

Stop trying to be dramatic,

wolverinex2
04-21-2006, 07:48 AM
lmfao not patriotic? armenian ppl are one of most patriotic ppl in world. How can it be deserted when its such a small country you douche? How can u even talk when dirt bag turks like u raped pregnant women. Animals don't even do that... i guess raping and killing pregnant women gets u ****ers off

Your grandmother said that? Dam liars. First of all, ottoman was an islamic state. what you dont know is that fornication is absolutely, certainly, no doubt forbidden in Islam. It is you christians fauk each other around without the fear of God. Even today, muslims stay away from fornication. So why dont you idiots lie logically.
Based on the claims you present, you all are part Turks. If you deny this, you will have accepted that you lie about rapes. If you are all part Turks why are you all that ugly?
All armenians I saw are really bad looking guys. See system of a down. lol

wolverinex2
04-21-2006, 07:51 AM
I saw it in the movie theater earlier this week (there was a screening in my area). It was not biased and extremely objective. I was even offended by some of its points, but in general, it made it clear that it was genocide, a government plan to extreminate a group of people. It was produced by a non-Armenian, and as usual, it also presented the denialist perspective (probably to show how absurd it is).

It was very objective. Not once did I feel the need for revenge, as I did when I saw the movie Ararat (which is a fictional movie that brings up the genocide).

Idiot!! most of the americans think they won in vietnam due to the movies. Smooth move. Be realistic

wolverinex2
04-21-2006, 07:57 AM
Dude, I'll give you $500 if you can find me a turk to will say the things that Wolverine says to my face. I'm 100% serious.

I will pay all your expenditures including air ticket, accomodation and anything else. Just come and say what you say to my face. I am not in Turkey so this is a neutral place for both of us. You can bring a few armenains thinking like you but I will not pay for them :).

A turk prefers dying instead of fearing from an armenian. The last armenian who talked about bull**** alleged armenian genocide and your smears on my face accepted he was wrong. I would love to change the mind of another armenian.

bb4life123
04-21-2006, 07:58 AM
were is this proof u dumb douche. all u do is post long articles from the internet having no relevance with anything... ur not even posting where this articles are from.

bb4life123
04-21-2006, 08:00 AM
and i'v lived in armenia for about 13 years, and im gonna move back there at a later point in life

wolverinex2
04-22-2006, 02:14 AM
were is this proof u dumb douche. all u do is post long articles from the internet having no relevance with anything... ur not even posting where this articles are from.

Of course all I posted would be articles. This is called scientific, go back and read my posts again and see how many professor from high impact universities I referred to and how many scientific articles I posted. Besides, I already stated where I got them from so I will not repeat myself because I very well know an idiot is always an idiot.

Unlike you and other morons, I am not playing a dramatic movie here on the basis of what your old farts taught you.

So now stop crying and be reasonable half Turk bro :D

wolverinex2
04-22-2006, 02:18 AM
and i'v lived in armenia for about 13 years, and im gonna move back there at a later point in life

Well I am sure there are many armenians telling the same story around. Your people are on the verge of starvation and the two-faced dumbarses like you enjoy their lives in USA and other advanced countries spiting out their dam smears.

No dude, at least show respect to yourself, dont lie to yourself. You will never go back and you know it. Well as long as US doesnt have a serious problem. In that case, I am sure you will escape like rats evacuating the sinking ship.

bb4life123
04-22-2006, 08:16 PM
1 i dont live in the US ass clown
2 go kill yourself you dirty turk

wolverinex2
04-24-2006, 01:43 AM
1 i dont live in the US ass clown
2 go kill yourself you dirty turk

1 You dont live in armenia either
2 Hmmmm, it doesnt seem a good idea to me. Thanks anyway for suggestion :D

bb4life123
04-24-2006, 12:12 PM
do u live in turky? haha wtf does living in armenia have to do with anything

no problem

JYD
04-24-2006, 09:30 PM
I went to the Little Armenia march and to the took embassy as well today. All I have to say is that the world will not let you (turks) get away with this crime. The world (more or less) is civilized, and its only a matter of time when advanced countries realize that advocating genocide recognition is step towards pushing turks into the fellowship of civility. Until then, you will always be the backwards military dictatorship loving neanderthals that deny every other ethnicity from existing and force them to convert to a 'turk' identity or face hell...just like your ancestors, ghenghis khan and other dogs who should go back to mongolia and have no business in the Near East, where for centuries all peoples lived in peace and only Kings fought other Kings. YOUR people introduced ethnic hatred and divisions, not the Russians or anyone else. YOUR ancestors disarmed Armenian villages and made them prey to Kurd and turk gangs/bandits. YOUR ancestors forced Armenians in the east to buy weapons and form self defense militias, especially since the Ottoman government not only opposed protecting Armenians but actually persecuted them and massacred them regularly. YOUR ancestors drove the men and women/children into the deserts, seperately, and killed the men, and raped the women/children. Your policies of ethnic cleansing continues today, which is why you cant even deal with something nearly a century ago. We have witnesses, from all races and ethnicities, even turk. Your government has only lies and perverted history, just as with Cyprus, as with how it arrests Assyrians, treats all minorities, this, that, everything. All turk neighbors hate turks...no one living in the region likes turks. Armenians have proven themselves to be loyal, contributing, faithful peoples in all regional neighbors. Who has honor in the region? Who is respected based on race? Who are known for being hard working, honest people? And who are the opposite?
Truth.

wolverinex2
04-25-2006, 08:53 AM
do u live in turky? haha wtf does living in armenia have to do with anything

no problem

Because while escaping from armenia like rats evacuating the sinking ship, defending your allegation like champions for the sake of more land (it is obvious. Great armenia lol) doesnt make sense to me.

TheBigA
04-25-2006, 09:25 AM
I never knew anything about the Armenian Genocide until i looked on the internet. The fact is the turks came from outside europe from Turkmenistan and killed and slaughtered the greeks the kurds and the other ppl who stayed in what was kurdistan Armenia and Greece and instated a ruler ship and put jewish ppl as the tax men because jewish ppl are very smart and good at adding up sums exetra they were the tax men of the ottmen empire. The Armenians always got the raw deal so did the greeks and kurds even today they get the raw deal. there would have never of been the jewish exodus in europe if we had learned from the Armenian genocide. More Russians died in concentration camps than jewish ppl. Turkey should nerv get into europe. This is like osmeone coming into your hosue taking your house and since theve lived in it for so many years it now owns to them its crazy ****.

wolverinex2
04-25-2006, 12:20 PM
I went to the Little Armenia march and to the took embassy as well today. Your policies of ethnic cleansing continues today, which is why you cant even deal with something nearly a century ago. We have witnesses, from all races and ethnicities, even turk. Your government has only lies and perverted history, just as with Cyprus, as with how it arrests Assyrians, treats all minorities, this, that, everything. All turk neighbors hate turks...no one living in the region likes turks. Armenians have proven themselves to be loyal, contributing, faithful peoples in all regional neighbors. Who has honor in the region? Who is respected based on race? Who are known for being hard working, honest people? And who are the opposite?
Truth.

Sniff Sniff*crying*

Can I have tissue? Sniff

Man cant you be even more dramatic? BTW, it has been a long time man, I missed you :D
Little armenia??? So what is the great armenia? Armenia having Turk land? :D

Well the more economy and dependantly academic state in Turkey advance , the more shocking news will be revealed.

German professor Coffman proved in the archaeological studies in trojan region that the trojans used the same language used in middle asia by Turks then. The archeological findings like pots, vessels etc are also very similar to the ones found in middle asia. Besides, according to ancient greek sources, the commander led the escapee group from troy to the east, middle asia, was Turkos.

Besides, another group escaped from the trojan invasion to the west by ships and settled in the land known today as italia.This group was led by Aeneias and established thecity of Lavinium in Italia. These people later established 2 other cities, Alba Langa and Rome, respectively. Remus and Romulus are the grandchildren of Aeneias.Allegedly, (not proved), the origin of these people might be related to Turks

It is very surprising that remus and romulus epic is almost completely the same as the Grey Wolf Epic of Turkish . In remus and romulus epic, the kids are wanted to be killed by Amulius. They are put in a basket floating on the river to be drowned but the kids are saved by a female wolf. This wolf feeds them and later romulus kill Amulius and take over the throne and establish a new empire with his name. Rome

According to the, Turkish Epic. The Turkish tribes are massacred and the only survival boy is fed by a grey female wolf. This boy grows up and gives rise to the appearance of the turkish tribe again.

Both are just myths of course but myths are generated depending on the life style and culture of the people of that region. So the similarity of these 2 epics are remarkable.



In both epics, kids were fed by a female wolf. And these kids grew up and established new countries.

Another allegation is that when Turkish Empire, Fatih Sultan Mehmet, conqured Istanbul, the pope gave the keys of the city to Sultan and said
" Greetings, trojan prince".

Although only the language trojans used and other findings are proved to be the same as the ones Turkish people in middle asia used, others are only myths. So I claim Turkish people didnt belong to only middle asia. So it is not coherent to defend Turkish people came from asia and took over the region and removed people from their homes, especially greeks. What were greeks doing there? we are not living in greece right? Besides, who cares? it was the way people founded new civilisations in the past. What are european people doing in the lands of the native americans? Or what are european people doin in australia or south africa? If you call this genocide, I am asking the americans, how many native american have you seen in your life? They are almost extinct.

Armenia drove 800.000 people from karabagh to the refugee camps in Azerbaijan and they are having extremelly difficult times in these camps. And every country accepts that armenia unjustly invaded this region. Besides, Armenia still keeps breaking international laws killing the azerian soldiers on duty on the boundary. This is driving people away from their homes.


As stated by several english generals in their letters and books after the failed invasion of Turkey by England, Italy, France, Greece, Australia, and Russia during WW1, it is a known fact Turks are great warriors during the war time but this doesnt make us barbarians coming and taking homes of the people and driving them away. After conquest of Istanbul, all byzantines continued living in their home. Europe offered orthodox byzantine help only if they convert to catholic. Being aware of the justice of rising Turkish Empire, Byzantine stateman Notaras, first person after the emperor, is reputed to have said " I would rather to see Ottoman Sarık(headdress) than Cardinal Hat in Constantinople". And people met Turks with flowers. This scene has been depicted in several portraits by several foreign painters.

Besides, Ottoman protected not only armenians but also other nations like jews living under its rule. This is undeniable man. Your point is refuted by many sources so I will not reply them here. The problem between otooman muslims and armenians occurred during 1915. There is no accusation of anyone but you prior to this date.

Ottoman was located on three continents and there is no nation speaking Turkish language or having Turkish culture in these regions so claiming imposed Turk identity is also not consistent. Look at the ex british colonies like India, Hong Kong, Singapore, malaysia etc, all speak English and have many traces of English culture. As a simple example, all have steering wheel at the right in their cars as in England. This is called identity imposing.

I already admitted repeatedly armenians were loyal citizens of Ottoman so ottoman called them as "Tab'a-yi Sadika" which means "loyal society" in ottoman empire. Unfortunatelly armenians wanted to get freedom by the promises of russians and english and revolted against ottoman and started to kill civilians although they had never had a state there during all their history at that region. It is an undeniable fact that Ottoman banished armenians and led them to the south. Most of the armenians died in the civil wars and during this banishment. This number is around 640.000 not like 1.5 millions. But there is another fact that more muslims were killed in this tradegy.


Either Turkey will enter Eu or not, who gives a **** about it. (although it will most probably make it into EU)
I dont care and most of Turkish people dont care whether we can or not. We will go on our way. Morover, the last thing western countries could accomplish is to be able to force Turkey accept alleged genocide. Every citizen of Turkey, turkish, kurdish, even armenians dont accept it.
So what will western countries will do? They will declare war on Turkey? Maybe we will be nuked for that.

It is obvious flaming and cursing each other doesnt give us any good point but a bad name. Each side has many things to defend. So I will try to stop using bad words in my posts (I will do my best to do that)

I think the best way is to try to solve the problem that will enable both nations to dodge this period with the minumum damage in terms of economy and relationship between nations. Because of the hard work of the armenian lobbys in the world, Turkey closed the armenian boundary and Armenian Ambassador himself said Armenia is suffering because of this. In the region, Turkey is the best country for the Armenian trade and economy.

In my opinion, hatred gives birth to more hatred. I very well know Armenian culture is not very different from Turkish culture. And other than some sick minded people supporting and praising terrorist acts here cheerfully, I dont have any hard feeling against armenians. recently I watched a TV program, a turkish reporter in Armenia was hosted by an armenian family and they sang a Turkish song. It really melted some bad feelings in my heart.

This is not boast or arrogance, frankly. Turkey is a very strong, populated, rich, and especially recently a very fast growing country when compared to armenia and has almost the most powerful army in the region having almost 1 million soldiers and manufacturing its own war planes. Turkey has nothing to lose in a debate with armenia. IMHO, Turkey should open the armenian boundary and start to moderate relationship with armenia. In return, armenia should stop supporting terrorist group PKK and armenian people should stop giving a bad name to Turkey in international arena.

There are no any other nations in the world that are very different from each other but very very similar to each other in terms of culture.

You can attack several things I posted about Troy (although I stated they are allegations), or my wishes but I will always defend ottoman always protected armenians until 1915 and never an ottoman soldier raped any armenian woman. One more time I will say this Ottoman was a religious state and having sex other than the spouse was strictly forbidden by both religion and laws. Even today muslims stay away from fornication.

bearlydavid
04-25-2006, 02:01 PM
1 i dont live in the US ass clown
2 go kill yourself you dirty turk

Your seriously a joke. I have read through this entire thread and all you do is name call against wolverine...

Now i know that there is much debate in this subject of Armenian genocide... But you cant for a second think maybe wolverine is right...

Jeez thats the problem today... Your too set in your ideals... For once in your life question it...

I am not for either way... IMO i think both sides committed atrocities...

However I do find it odd that there isnt more info about the genocide... like for example the Holocaust... there is as wolverine said hundreds of thousands of pieces of evidence that it happened... Shoes, clothing, mass grave sites found, etc... I just have to question where is all this stuff from the Amenian genocides... Where is all the photographic evidence, mass graves, I just kind of find it odd...

And the pictures posted... They dont seem to really prove anything... Hangings were pretty common during pre modern times... There was nothing at the caliber of the pictures of the mass graves of the Holocaust, the pictures from the Great Purges of the Communist Revolution,... But i dont know...

Damn near all "civilized" countries committed atrocities...

My contribution to this thread... is QUESTION EVERYTHING... Dont just accept it for face value... There is always two sides to a coin...

JYD
04-25-2006, 05:28 PM
Sniff Sniff*crying*

Can I have tissue? Sniff

Man cant you be even more dramatic? BTW, it has been a long time man, I missed you :D
Little armenia??? So what is the great armenia? Armenia having Turk land? :D

Well the more economy and dependantly academic state in Turkey advance , the more shocking news will be revealed.

German professor Coffman proved in the archaeological studies in trojan region that the trojans used the same language used in middle asia by Turks then. The archeological findings like pots, vessels etc are also very similar to the ones found in middle asia. Besides, according to ancient greek sources, the commander led the escapee group from troy to the east, middle asia, was Turkos.

Besides, another group escaped from the trojan invasion to the west by ships and settled in the land known today as italia.This group was led by Aeneias and established thecity of Lavinium in Italia. These people later established 2 other cities, Alba Langa and Rome, respectively. Remus and Romulus are the grandchildren of Aeneias.Allegedly, (not proved), the origin of these people might be related to Turks

It is very surprising that remus and romulus epic is almost completely the same as the Grey Wolf Epic of Turkish . In remus and romulus epic, the kids are wanted to be killed by Amulius. They are put in a basket floating on the river to be drowned but the kids are saved by a female wolf. This wolf feeds them and later romulus kill Amulius and take over the throne and establish a new empire with his name. Rome

According to the, Turkish Epic. The Turkish tribes are massacred and the only survival boy is fed by a grey female wolf. This boy grows up and gives rise to the appearance of the turkish tribe again.

Both are just myths of course but myths are generated depending on the life style and culture of the people of that region. So the similarity of these 2 epics are remarkable.



In both epics, kids were fed by a female wolf. And these kids grew up and established new countries.

Another allegation is that when Turkish Empire, Fatih Sultan Mehmet, conqured Istanbul, the pope gave the keys of the city to Sultan and said
" Greetings, trojan prince".

Although only the language trojans used and other findings are proved to be the same as the ones Turkish people in middle asia used, others are only myths. So I claim Turkish people didnt belong to only middle asia. So it is not coherent to defend Turkish people came from asia and took over the region and removed people from their homes, especially greeks. What were greeks doing there? we are not living in greece right? Besides, who cares? it was the way people founded new civilisations in the past. What are european people doing in the lands of the native americans? Or what are european people doin in australia or south africa? If you call this genocide, I am asking the americans, how many native american have you seen in your life? They are almost extinct.

Armenia drove 800.000 people from karabagh to the refugee camps in Azerbaijan and they are having extremelly difficult times in these camps. And every country accepts that armenia unjustly invaded this region. Besides, Armenia still keeps breaking international laws killing the azerian soldiers on duty on the boundary. This is driving people away from their homes.


As stated by several english generals in their letters and books after the failed invasion of Turkey by England, Italy, France, Greece, Australia, and Russia during WW1, it is a known fact Turks are great warriors during the war time but this doesnt make us barbarians coming and taking homes of the people and driving them away. After conquest of Istanbul, all byzantines continued living in their home. Europe offered orthodox byzantine help only if they convert to catholic. Being aware of the justice of rising Turkish Empire, Byzantine stateman Notaras, first person after the emperor, is reputed to have said " I would rather to see Ottoman Sarık(headdress) than Cardinal Hat in Constantinople". And people met Turks with flowers. This scene has been depicted in several portraits by several foreign painters.

Besides, Ottoman protected not only armenians but also other nations like jews living under its rule. This is undeniable man. Your point is refuted by many sources so I will not reply them here. The problem between otooman muslims and armenians occurred during 1915. There is no accusation of anyone but you prior to this date.

Ottoman was located on three continents and there is no nation speaking Turkish language or having Turkish culture in these regions so claiming imposed Turk identity is also not consistent. Look at the ex british colonies like India, Hong Kong, Singapore, malaysia etc, all speak English and have many traces of English culture. As a simple example, all have steering wheel at the right in their cars as in England. This is called identity imposing.

blah blah blah...deleted to reduce character count.

Either Turkey will enter Eu or not, who gives a **** about it. (although it will most probably make it into EU)
I dont care and most of Turkish people dont care whether we can or not. We will go on our way. Morover, the last thing western countries could accomplish is to be able to force Turkey accept alleged genocide. Every citizen of Turkey, turkish, kurdish, even armenians dont accept it.
So what will western countries will do? They will declare war on Turkey? Maybe we will be nuked for that.

It is obvious flaming and cursing each other doesnt give us any good point but a bad name. Each side has many things to defend. So I will try to stop using bad words in my posts (I will do my best to do that)

I think the best way is to try to solve the problem that will enable both nations to dodge this period with the minumum damage in terms of economy and relationship between nations. Because of the hard work of the armenian lobbys in the world, Turkey closed the armenian boundary and Armenian Ambassador himself said Armenia is suffering because of this. In the region, Turkey is the best country for the Armenian trade and economy.

In my opinion, hatred gives birth to more hatred. I very well know Armenian culture is not very different from Turkish culture. And other than some sick minded people supporting and praising terrorist acts here cheerfully, I dont have any hard feeling against armenians. recently I watched a TV program, a turkish reporter in Armenia was hosted by an armenian family and they sang a Turkish song. It really melted some bad feelings in my heart.

This is not boast or arrogance, frankly. Turkey is a very strong, populated, rich, and especially recently a very fast growing country when compared to armenia and has almost the most powerful army in the region having almost 1 million soldiers and manufacturing its own war planes. Turkey has nothing to lose in a debate with armenia. IMHO, Turkey should open the armenian boundary and start to moderate relationship with armenia. In return, armenia should stop supporting terrorist group PKK and armenian people should stop giving a bad name to Turkey in international arena.

There are no any other nations in the world that are very different from each other but very very similar to each other in terms of culture.

You can attack several things I posted about Troy (although I stated they are allegations), or my wishes but I will always defend ottoman always protected armenians until 1915 and never an ottoman soldier raped any armenian woman. One more time I will say this Ottoman was a religious state and having sex other than the spouse was strictly forbidden by both religion and laws. Even today muslims stay away from fornication.
Psst. Can I tell you a secret? No one is reading your posts, but thanks for bumping the thread. No one cares what a turk has to say. All of turkeys neighbors know what turks are about, and all of Europe that has had to deal with turk immigrants also knows what you people are about. You're not convincing anyone but yourselves.
Disarming a population, and then hiring warlord to attack them, and sending troops to kill all the males and women/children to the deserts to be raped/murdered isn't something a country will want to advertise, but its something it is something to come to grips with if you want to move on into the future.

To answer your question, Little Armenia is a part of Los Angeles where Soviet Armenians immigrated to. It was gang infested and very poor. Today it is recovering very strongly and its more than developing its own economy.
In Lebanon, survivors of the genocide were told to camp at a swamp, and the Armenians created a very successful farming community with a higher degree of advancements than the rest of Lebanon even to this day (the only town to be spared casualties in the civil war).

In Tehran and Baghdad, survivors fleeing the turks created communities which to this day are a cherished part of the home countries, examples of tolerance and appreciation towards Christian minorities.

In the U.S., Europe, Africa, even Asia, Armenians are known for being honorable, and hard working, faithful people. That is why the whole world shakes its head when it hears lies which you parrot. Russia never promised anything to Armenians, except domination if it won a war with Ottomans. That is why Ottoman Armenians supported the empire, because under the Ottomans, Armenians (until 1915 and the kemalist revolt) were allowed to worship and practice their religion and culture.

I apologize for the insults earlier. I didn't mean to go down to that level. I am, after all, better than you.
HYE OUZH HAVIDYAN.

JYD
04-25-2006, 05:31 PM
Your seriously a joke. I have read through this entire thread and all you do is name call against wolverine...

Now i know that there is much debate in this subject of Armenian genocide... But you cant for a second think maybe wolverine is right...

Jeez thats the problem today... Your too set in your ideals... For once in your life question it...

I am not for either way... IMO i think both sides committed atrocities...

However I do find it odd that there isnt more info about the genocide... like for example the Holocaust... there is as wolverine said hundreds of thousands of pieces of evidence that it happened... Shoes, clothing, mass grave sites found, etc... I just have to question where is all this stuff from the Amenian genocides... Where is all the photographic evidence, mass graves, I just kind of find it odd...

And the pictures posted... They dont seem to really prove anything... Hangings were pretty common during pre modern times... There was nothing at the caliber of the pictures of the mass graves of the Holocaust, the pictures from the Great Purges of the Communist Revolution,... But i dont know...

Damn near all "civilized" countries committed atrocities...

My contribution to this thread... is QUESTION EVERYTHING... Dont just accept it for face value... There is always two sides to a coin...
Go to the deserts of Der El Zor and you'll still find, to this day, mass graves, unburied and open to the public.

Every Armenian on this Earth is literally a descendant of a survivor, or a survivor. How many eye-witness accounts do you want? From how many sources?

guym
04-25-2006, 07:38 PM
And Turkey wants in the EU? HAHAHA!!!! :rolleyes:

IF the EU is stupid enough to let them in, they deserve what they get...

wolverinex2
04-25-2006, 09:34 PM
Psst. Can I tell you a secret? No one is reading your posts, but thanks for bumping the thread. No one cares what a turk has to say. All of turkeys neighbors know what turks are about, and all of Europe that has had to deal with turk immigrants also knows what you people are about. You're not convincing anyone but yourselves.
Disarming a population, and then hiring warlord to attack them, and sending troops to kill all the males and women/children to the deserts to be raped/murdered isn't something a country will want to advertise, but its something it is something to come to grips with if you want to move on into the future.

In Tehran and Baghdad, survivors fleeing the turks created communities which to this day are a cherished part of the home countries, examples of tolerance and appreciation towards Christian minorities.

In the U.S., Europe, Africa, even Asia, Armenians are known for being honorable, and hard working, faithful people. That is why the whole world shakes its head when it hears lies which you parrot. Russia never promised anything to Armenians, except domination if it won a war with Ottomans. That is why Ottoman Armenians supported the empire, because under the Ottomans, Armenians (until 1915 and the kemalist revolt) were allowed to worship and practice their religion and culture.

I apologize for the insults earlier. I didn't mean to go down to that level. I am, after all, better than you.
HYE OUZH HAVIDYAN.

No man, this thread has been viewed 1838 times and this is one of the tops. So people read my posts. Thanks people :D

Judging from the meaningful message of bearlydavid I can say he also read all posts.Whatever...

dude have you ever realised that you always repeat yourself. As skinnyfred said "So far in those whole thread you have stated nothing, but opinion." I am not blaming you If I were you I would probably would the same. How do you know people love armenians and dont love Turks. You speak for all nations, wow, what a big claim!! I really cant do that. To be able to do that, I should take a worlwide poll. Morover, only the population of the Turks in Germany is bigger than that of armenia. Imagine 4-5 millions armenian live in a european country, they also wouldnt love to deal with it I think. So it is not about a nation but population in my opinion.

I guess we should also look at the other side of the coin. As long as you dont understand us and we dont understand you, there will always be a debate.

As I said before we have nothing to lose in a political conflict with armenia.
However I really want a better relationship with armenia because I saw those people in armenia. They are poor and need help. All countries around Armenia except georgia are politically dependant on Turkey. Actually armenia has 4 neihbours, Turkey, azerbaijan, georgia and North iran (azerians). Georgia is also a poor country. The only option for armenia is to have good relationship with Turkey and leave invaded azerbaijan land.


Besides, time will show whether Turkey will make it into EU or not so we just waste our words by discussing it. No one to make this decision is even aware of us. Even if they were, they wouldnt care about us. Just I wonder if they will not accept Turkey, why did they start negotiations? Anyway time will reveal it. If we cannot I really dont care.




To answer your question, Little Armenia is a part of Los Angeles where Soviet Armenians immigrated to. It was gang infested and very poor. Today it is recovering very strongly and its more than developing its own economy.
In Lebanon, survivors of the genocide were told to camp at a swamp, and the Armenians created a very successful farming community with a higher degree of advancements than the rest of Lebanon even to this day (the only town to be spared casualties in the civil war).

It is good to hear that little armenia is doing and armenians in lebanon did good.

BTW, system of a down is also doing good as a band but my favourite is still metallica :D

wolverinex2
04-25-2006, 09:39 PM
Go to the deserts of Der El Zor and you'll still find, to this day, mass graves, unburied and open to the public.

Every Armenian on this Earth is literally a descendant of a survivor, or a survivor. How many eye-witness accounts do you want? From how many sources?
In Turkey, several Turkish mass graves were also found. It is said to be done by armenians.

Man mass graves don't prove anything. They might have died for any reason like epidemic. There is no finding in those graves proving a massacre like beheaded or chopped people. They lie there as whole bodies.

There are no mass killing implements found in that region. Look at holocaust, several gas rooms, several camps existed.

A & B
04-25-2006, 10:10 PM
Interestingly enough, there was a show on TV yesterday that I watched on the Armenian genocide.

The president of the International association of Genocide Scholars was on, talking about the denial of this event in Turkey. Now I'm sorry, but this is by far and wide the most prestigeous, authoritative and impartial body on the subject of genocide, and they equate denial of this event with denial of the Holocaust. I can't think of any reason why they would have some "bias" against Turkey.

It was apparently made law that any and all history text books in Turkey had to teach a version of history which promoted the idea that the "genocide" was a fabrication. They interviewed a few Turks talking about how the genocide is either a fabrication, or what happened was not 'genocide', it was only what needed to be done under the circumstances. Almost an entire nation has been brainwashed... it doesn't surprise me that wolverine here sticks to his country's party line, it's only what they've been brought up with.

They showed this couple who published a book about the genocide in turkey, and they were attacked, they received hate mail and their office was bombed as a result. Sounds like an pluralistic society to me....

wolverinex2
04-26-2006, 02:09 AM
Interestingly enough, there was a show on TV yesterday that I watched on the Armenian genocide.

The president of the International association of Genocide Scholars was on, talking about the denial of this event in Turkey. Now I'm sorry, but this is by far and wide the most prestigeous, authoritative and impartial body on the subject of genocide, and they equate denial of this event with denial of the Holocaust. I can't think of any reason why they would have some "bias" against Turkey.

It was apparently made law that any and all history text books in Turkey had to teach a version of history which promoted the idea that the "genocide" was a fabrication. They interviewed a few Turks talking about how the genocide is either a fabrication, or what happened was not 'genocide', it was only what needed to be done under the circumstances. Almost an entire nation has been brainwashed... it doesn't surprise me that wolverine here sticks to his country's party line, it's only what they've been brought up with.

They showed this couple who published a book about the genocide in turkey, and they were attacked, they received hate mail and their office was bombed as a result. Sounds like an pluralistic society to me....

Never heard of that bombing event. Could you please give a link about this event? It is a big incident I think, so news stations must have not missed this.

Man believe it or not, I read foreign books about this event more than the domestic ones.
You must hear that the current Turkish prime minister , Tayyip Erdogan, offered and is still offering that a neutral board of historians from different countries to be formed and to search this event. However, armenian president replied that a board from Turkish parliament and Armenian parliament to be formed and search this event.
It is obvious politicians are not to search historical facts. Besides, it is also apparent that a pressure can be put on politicians by some other foreign politicians.
I guess you also find it reasonable that this event must be questioned and searched by historians, in other words by experts. Hopefully, armenian president will accept this offer soon and we all can learn what really happened and this debate of decades ends soon. I sincerely wish that.
If a genocide happened then we will apologise on behalf of our ancestors and do whatever reasonable can be done. But if a genocide didnt happen armenians should apologise for the fake smears and blackening the prestige of Turkey for years.

JYD
04-26-2006, 05:51 PM
If it didn't happen...dude, what part of 'every Armenian is a descendant of survivors' dont you understand?

And Metallica has sucked ever since And Justice For All.

bearlydavid
04-26-2006, 07:50 PM
If it didn't happen...dude, what part of 'every Armenian is a descendant of survivors' dont you understand?

And Metallica has sucked ever since And Justice For All.
Thats a nice statement... I will make a similar one...

Every statement wolverine makes is true... Dont you understand the statement :D

He is completely refuting the claim that there was a Armenian Genocide... Your providing a statement that provides no evidence... Just a claim...

JYD
04-26-2006, 11:54 PM
Thats a nice statement... I will make a similar one...

Every statement wolverine makes is true... Dont you understand the statement :D

He is completely refuting the claim that there was a Armenian Genocide... Your providing a statement that provides no evidence... Just a claim...There's plenty out there. Even with the information which the turkish government cannot deny, its obvious.

JYD
04-29-2006, 07:28 PM
Turkish Human Rights Association Holds Press Conference about Genocide

At noon on April 24, the Istanbul office of the Human Rights Association held a press conference during which the association's Istanbul Branch executive committee's read its press release about the Armenian genocide. International and national representatives of the media attended the press conference, while plain-clothes police officers stood right outside the door.

The following is the English translation of the press release from the Istanbul Branch of the Human Rights Watch:

Today, the 24th of April, is recognized worldwide as the date signifying the Armenian genocide. Only in Turkey it indicates a taboo. The Turkish state mobilizes all its resources to deny the meaning of this date.

At diplomatic platforms, Turkish officials and their advocates claim that they recognize the "big tragedy" and they only object to it being named a "genocide." That's not true. At every occasion in Turkey not only the Armenian genocide, but also the great agony of the Armenian people is denied and attempts are made to justify the Genocide.

It was only last month that during a Symposium on the Armenian-Turkish relations the denialist official theses were voiced one after another, offending the Armenians in Turkey and elsewhere and insulting the memory of their grandparents. Lies were told in the name of "science," like "Armenians have always sold their masters," "deportation was a means of crisis management," the "death toll of deportation is comparable to the death toll of flu epidemic in England that time," and "there is no other people as noble as the Turkish nation in the world, it is impossible for them to commit a genocide," and many more, humiliating a people who were one of the most advanced in science, art, and literature.

Denial is a constituent part of the Genocide itself and results in the continuation of the Genocide. Denial of genocide is a human rights violation in itself. It deprives individuals the right to mourn for their ancestors, for the ethnic cleansing of a nation, the annihilation of people of all ages, all professions, all social sections, women, men, children, babies, grandparents alike just because they were Armenians, regardless of their political background or conviction. Perhaps the most important of all, it is the refusal of making a solemn, formal commitment and saying "NEVER AGAIN."

Turkey has made hardly any progress in the field of co-existence, democracy, human rights and putting an end to militarism since the time of the Union and Progress Committee. Annihilation and denial had been and continues today to be the only means to solve the problem. Villages evacuated and put on fire and forced displacements are still the manifestation of the same habit of "social engineering." There has always been bloodshed in the homeland of Armenians since 1915. Unsolved murders, disappearances under custody, rapes and arrests en masse during the 1990's were no surprise, given the ongoing state tradition lacking any culture of repentance for past crimes against humanity.

Similarly the removal of a public prosecutor and banning him from profession just for taking the courage to mention an accusation against the military, a very recent incident, is the manifestation of an old habit of punishing anybody who dares to voice any objection to the army. And today's ongoing military build up of some 250,000 troops in the southeast of Turkey is the proof of a mindset, which is unable to develop any solution to the Kurdish question other than armed suppression.

Turkey will not be able to take even one step forward without putting an end to the continuity of the Progress and Union way of ruling. No human rights violation can be stopped in Turkey and there will be no hope of breaking the vicious circle of Kurdish uprisings and their bloody suppression unless the Turkish state agrees to create an environment where public homage is paid to Genocide victims, where the sufferings of their grandchildren is shared and the Genocide is recognized.

Today we, as the human rights defenders, would like to address all Armenians in Turkey and elsewhere in the world and tell them "we want to share the pain in your hearts and bow down before the memory of your lost ones. They are also our losses. Our struggle for human rights in Turkey is at the same time our mourning for our common losses and an homage paid to the Genocide victims.

JYD
04-29-2006, 07:30 PM
8) Turkey Finally Hears Its Past

By Henry Morgenthau III

CAMBRIDGE (Boston Globe)--”Ambassador Morgenthau's Story," my grandfather's account of the killings of Armenians in Turkey in 1915, was published just before World War I ended in November 1918. A personal chronicle of his service as the US ambassador to Ottoman Turkey for 26 months, the book was published last month for the first time in Turkish, a milestone in informing the Turkish people of what happened in their country more than 90 years ago.

The term genocide had not yet been invented when my grandfather wrote his book. Thus, Morgenthau refers to “the destruction of the Armenian race" as “the murder of a nation." It was Henry Morgenthau's lonely voice that alerted the world to the premeditated atrocities of the Young Turk leaders and the complicity of their German allies.

Why Morgenthau chose to speak out on behalf of the Armenians is a more complex question than how he did so. Almost from the time he arrived in New York as a 10-year-old German Jewish immigrant, he envisioned public service as his ultimate calling. When the opportunity arose, he attached himself to Woodrow Wilson's rising star and was appointed US ambassador to Turkey.

At the end of 1914, Morgenthau noted a pattern: Palestinian Jews were conscripted into the Turkish army, then promptly disarmed and placed in labor battalions. This was a tactic the Turks used against Greeks and other minorities, and, most ominously, against the Armenians.

Fearing reprisals against Jews in Turkish territories, Morgenthau warned international Zionist leaders to contain their indignation. Then he took it upon himself to call on the US Navy for help. In January 1915, the USS Tennessee was ordered to Alexandria, Egypt, ostensibly to protect US citizens. In fact, it made possible the evacuation of impoverished Jewish refugees, including David Ben-Gurion and Yitzhak Ben-Zvi, who became respectively Israel's first prime minister and second president.

Morgenthau was never able to carry out a rescue of the Armenians with the effectiveness he achieved in saving Jews, though certainly not for want of trying. There were fundamental differences between the Armenian and Jewish situations. The Armenians were a minority located within the borders of Ottoman Turkey and Czarist Russia. The Jews, on the other hand, were widely dispersed throughout Eastern and Western Europe and the United States, and to a much lesser extent in the Near East, including the Holy Land. In Western Europe and the United States, Jews had risen to positions of power and had learned how to network internationally. The diaspora Armenians had not yet achieved such status and so could not mobilize support for their persecuted kinsmen.

When Morgenthau appealed to Enver Pasha, the Turkish minister of war, to permit US missionaries to feed starving Armenians, the response was coldly cynical. “We don't want the Americans to feed the Armenians... That is one of the worst things that could happen to them... It is their belief that they have friends in other countries which leads them to oppose the government and so bring down upon them all their miseries." The Turkish minister of the interior, Talaat Pasha, was equally callous: “The hatred between the Turks and the Armenians is now so intense that we have got to finish them. If we don't, they will plan their revenge."

The memoirs of my grandfather factually chronicle an important period of history. Yet, 91 years later, the Turkish state insists the genocide of the Armenians did not happen. Why does Turkey protect the murderers of the past? That is a question that needs to be asked over and over again until the truth is acknowledged. As Turkey seeks membership in the European Union, it is being challenged to open up its society and adopt free speech.

But its penal code has resulted in several Turkish writers being brought before their own courts for speaking out about the Armenian genocide. Surely a modern country like Turkey needs to treat its citizens with more respect. Free speech cannot be denied, especially in a country seeking to join the EU. Whatever may have motivated Turkish officials to deny the Genocide for more than 90 years, there now appears to be some light at the end of the tunnel. The US government, which had knuckled under in support of the Turkish policy of denial, is now urging all parties to accept the realities of history.

At this critical moment, the publication of the Turkish edition of “Ambassador Morgenthau's Story" is an important step for the citizens of Turkey. It is their right to know their own history, good and bad, without interference from the state. A crime denied is a crime repeated. Great nations in history have acknowledged the misdeeds of their earlier governments. It is time for Turkey to join the ranks of those great nations.

Henry Morgenthau III, who lives in Cambridge, is the author of a family history, “Mostly Morgenthaus."

wolverinex2
05-10-2006, 06:19 AM
I guess this guy expects a huge income from the sale of this book after this ad. I have also posted the speeches made by the embassies of england and USA then. So which one is correct? How can you prove the book written by this morthenthingy is reliable? Is it a book from God that cannot be questioned? Give me a break!!!
I am tlking about the documents and you are talking about the books written by another human. If you think this book will make people see what happened really then you are wrong man, because there are thousands of books like that about so called armenian genocide. This is just one of them so dont come up with something that is not unusual. Recently American Scientist Prof. Guenter Lewy has written a book about armenian issue that describes the events as a civil war started by armenians. That book also states that around 624.000 armenians died along with millions of muslims. He also confessed armenian lobbies put pressure on him to prevent the book to be published.
So what? This is also a book that makes everything clear if the book you referred makes the same. At least Lewy is an historian prof not an ambassador. No one in that position would endanger his prestige with lies, right?


Turkey is denying and armenia is escaping from science. Turkey still keeps its suggestion of a neutral committee of historians from different countries to search this event in history. İronically, armenia doesnt accept it. For them it must be easier to keep claiming their allegations based on statements rather than science.

When it comes to the speech made by human rights in Turkey. First of all human rights assocation is not the authority to claim such a thing. Morover, although I follow newspapers daily I never saw such news. Despite that I searched the archives of the newspapers on 24, 25 etc april after reading your post. Guess what? My search hit no result. So I am skeptic about that kind of speech was made. Even local newspapers would not miss such a speech in Turkey.

Give us some links of reliable news channels or foundations about this speech.
Until then, astalavista.

JYD
05-10-2006, 05:53 PM
I guess this guy expects a huge income from the sale of this book after this ad. I have also posted the speeches made by the embassies of england and USA then. So which one is correct? How can you prove the book written by this morthenthingy is reliable? Is it a book from God that cannot be questioned? Give me a break!!!
I am tlking about the documents and you are talking about the books written by another human. If you think this book will make people see what happened really then you are wrong man, because there are thousands of books like that about so called armenian genocide. This is just one of them so dont come up with something that is not unusual. Recently American Scientist Prof. Guenter Lewy has written a book about armenian issue that describes the events as a civil war started by armenians. That book also states that around 624.000 armenians died along with millions of muslims. He also confessed armenian lobbies put pressure on him to prevent the book to be published.
So what? This is also a book that makes everything clear if the book you referred makes the same. At least Lewy is an historian prof not an ambassador. No one in that position would endanger his prestige with lies, right?


Turkey is denying and armenia is escaping from science. Turkey still keeps its suggestion of a neutral committee of historians from different countries to search this event in history. İronically, armenia doesnt accept it. For them it must be easier to keep claiming their allegations based on statements rather than science.

When it comes to the speech made by human rights in Turkey. First of all human rights assocation is not the authority to claim such a thing. Morover, although I follow newspapers daily I never saw such news. Despite that I searched the archives of the newspapers on 24, 25 etc april after reading your post. Guess what? My search hit no result. So I am skeptic about that kind of speech was made. Even local newspapers would not miss such a speech in Turkey.

Give us some links of reliable news channels or foundations about this speech.
Until then, astalavista.
Like Ataturk, who said that millions of Christians were murdered in 1922?
Like the Turkish Human RIghts group who stated openly that its time for Turkey to admit that the Ottomans did something horrible, so that it can be realized that since then, during the cold war, the ethnic cleansing continued, and also began to include Kurds.
Like all civilized and educated nations, especially the U.S?

JYD
05-26-2006, 11:40 PM
You're Talking Nonsense, Mr. Ambassador

By Robert Fisk

(The Independent)--A letter from the Turkish Ambassador to the Court of Saint James arrived for me a few days ago, one of those missives that send a shudder through the human soul. "You allege that an 'Armenian genocide' took place in Eastern Anatolia in 1915," His Excellency Mr. Akin Alptuna told me. "I believe you have some misconceptions about those events…"

Oh indeedy doody, I have. I am under the totally mistaken conception that one and a half million Armenians were cruelly and deliberately done to death by their Turkish Ottoman masters in 1915, that the men were shot and knifed while their womenfolk were raped and eviscerated and cremated and starved on death marches and their children butchered. I have met a few of the survivors--liars to a man and woman, if the Turkish ambassador to Britain is to be believed--and I have seen the photographs taken of the victims by a brave German photographer called Armin Wegner whose pictures must now, I suppose, be consigned to the waste bins. So must the archives of all those diplomats who courageously catalogued the mass murders inflicted upon Turkey's Christian population on the orders of the gang of nationalists who ran the Ottoman government in 1915.

What would have been our reaction if the ambassador of Germany had written a note to the same effect? "You allege that a 'Jewish genocide' took place in Eastern Europe between 1939 and 1945... I believe you have some misconceptions about those events...' Of course, the moment such a letter became public, the ambassador of Germany would be condemned by the Foreign Office, our man in Berlin would--even the pusillanimous Blair might rise to the occasion--be withdrawn for consultations and the European Union would debate whether sanctions should be placed upon Germany.

But Mr. Alptuna need have no such worries. His country is not a member of the European Union--it merely wishes to be--and it was Mr. Blair's craven administration that for many months tried to prevent Armenian participation in Britain's Holocaust Day.

Amid this chicanery, there are a few shining bright lights and I should say at once that Mr. Alptuna's letter is a grotesque representation of the views of a growing number of Turkish citizens, a few of whom I have the honor to know, who are convinced that the story of the great evil visited upon the Armenians must be told in their country. So why, oh why, I ask myself, are Mr. Alptuna and his colleagues in Paris and Beirut and other cities still peddling this nonsense?

In Lebanon, for example, the Turkish embassy has sent a "communiqué" to the local French-language L'Orient Le Jour newspaper, referring to the "soi-disant (so-called) Armenian genocide" and asking why the modern state of Armenia will not respond to the Turkish call for a joint historical study to "examine the events" of 1915.

In fact, the Armenian president, Robert Kocharian, will not respond to such an invitation for the same reason that the world's Jewish community would not respond to the call for a similar examination of the Jewish Holocaust from the Iranian president--because an unprecedented international crime was committed, the mere questioning of which would be an insult to the millions of victims who perished.

But the Turkish appeals are artfully concocted. In Beirut, they recall the Allied catastrophe at Gallipoli in 1915 when British, French, Australian, and New Zealand troops suffered massive casualties at the hands of the Turkish army. In all--including Turkish soldiers--up to a quarter of a million men perished in the Dardanelles. The Turkish embassy in Beirut rightly states that the belligerent nations of Gallipoli have transformed these hostilities into gestures of reconciliation, friendship, and mutual respect. A good try. But the bloodbath of Gallipoli did not involve the planned murder of hundreds of thousands of British, French, Australian, New Zealand--and Turkish--women and children.

But now for the bright lights. A group of "righteous Turks" are challenging their government's dishonest account of the 1915 genocide: Ahmet Insel, Baskin Oran, Halil Berktay, Hrant Dink, Ragip Zarakolu and others claim that the "democratic process" in Turkey will "chip away at the darkness" and they seek help from Armenians in doing so. Yet even they will refer only to the 1915 "disaster," the "tragedy," and the "agony" of the Armenians. Dr. Fatma Gocek of the University of Michigan is among the bravest of those Turkish-born academics who are fighting to confront the Ottoman Empire's terror against the Armenians. Yet she, too, objects to the use of the word genocide--though she acknowledges its accuracy--on the grounds that it has become "politicized" and thus hinders research.

I have some sympathy with this argument. Why make the job of honest Turks more difficult when these good men and women are taking on the might of Turkish nationalism? The problem is that other, more disreputable folk are demanding the same deletion. Mr. Alputuna writes to me--with awesome disingenuousness--that Armenians "have failed to submit any irrefutable evidence to support their allegations of genocide." And he goes on to say that "genocide, as you are well aware, has a quite specific legal definition" in the UN's 1948 Convention. But Mr. Alputuna is himself well aware--though he does not say so, of course--that the definition of genocide was set out by Raphael Lemkin, a Jew, in specific reference to the wholesale mass slaughter of the Armenians.

And all the while, new diplomatic archives are opening in the West, which reveal the smell of death--Armenian death--in their pages. I quote here, for example, from the newly discovered account of Denmark's minister in Turkey during the First World War. "The Turks are vigorously carrying through their cruel intention, to exterminate the Armenian people," Carl Wandel wrote on 3 July 1915. The Bishop of Karput was ordered to leave Aleppo within 48 hours "and it has later been learned that this Bishop and all the clergy that accompanied him have been... killed between Diyarbekir and Urfa at a place where approximately 1,700 Armenian families have suffered the same fate... In Angora... approximately 6,000 men... have been shot on the road... even here in Constantinople (Istanbul), Armenians are being abducted and sent to Asia..."

There is much, much more. Yet now here is Mr. Alptuna in his letter to me: "In fact, the Armenians living outside Eastern Armenia including Istanbul... were excluded from deportation." Somebody here is not telling the truth. The late Mr. Wandel of Copenhagen? Or the Turkish Ambassador to the Court of St. James?

kvk1
12-24-2006, 08:44 AM
"Unfortunately, if something is shouted loud enough, there are always those who believe it..."

Before you go on, at your own speed visit the following three pages. First, take a look at a brief background as to what went in an American professor's words: http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/background.htm

...followed by an important scenario: http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/scenario.htm

Last, you'll be guided to what should be the often ignored end-all argument: http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/3-trial.htm


ARMENIAN PROPAGANDA?

To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity.
Roy P. Basler


Turkish children and women killed by the Armenians. Some of the women were killed by taking the babies out from their wombs. Subatan, April 25, 1918. Reference:Massacre Exerted By The Armenian On The Turks During World War I Pictures http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/6284/clipboard02ac4.jpg

For many years in American media, the Indian was portrayed as the savage "bad guy." Certainly, native Americans hardly had anyone speaking on their behalf, and it was natural for the public to unquestioningly accept a one-sided version of events. Finally, as the indisputable truth became reported more and more (especially following the1960s publication of Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee), the real version of this historical conflict became widely accepted. Ironically, the formerly accepted "good guy" side was revealed to have been the actual dishonorable ones (having broken every treaty) and the ones significantly engaged in heartless slaughters, coupled with, at times, campaigns of systematic extermination.

For nearly a century, the Western World has wholeheartedly accepted that there has been an attempt by the Ottoman Turks to systematically destroy the Armenian people, comparable to what the Nazis committed upon the Jews during World War II. Many Armenians who have settled in America, Europe and Australia (along with other parts of the world, known as "The Armenian Diaspora") have clung to the tragic events of so long ago as a form of ethnic identity, and have considered it their duty to perpetuate this myth, with little regard for facts... at the same time breeding hatred among their young. As descendants of the merchant class from the Ottoman Empire, Armenians have been successful in acquiring the wealth and power to make their voices heard... and they have made good use of the "Christian" connection to gain the sympathies of Westerners who share their religion and prejudices.

Turks characteristically shun propaganda, and have chosen not to dwell on the tragedies of the past, forging ahead to build upon brotherhood — not hate. This is why the horrifying massacres committed upon the Turks, Kurds and other Ottoman Muslims by Armenians have seldom been heard. When such reports are heard, Westerners can be callously dismissive... Turkish lives are apparently as meaningless to them as Indian lives were to most early Americans.

(The following is an excerpt from Dr. Leon Picon, reviewing the book, "THE ARMENIAN FILE"):

How successfully the Turks could have warded off the resultant stigma through counter-propaganda will never be known. But it is certain that in 1922 Sultan Mohammed Vl put it quite succinctly and pointedly, when he told the American writer E. Alexander Powell:

“If we sent one, your newspapers and periodicals would not publish an article written by a Turk, if they published it, your people would not read it, if they read it, they would not believe it. Even if we sent a qualified person to America, to convey to you in your language, the Turkish point of view, would he find an impartial audience?” [Gurun, File, p. 37]


It's amazing that whenever the "Armenian Genocide" is referred to in Western media, journalists seem to fall all over themselves in presenting the perspective totally from the Armenian propaganda machinery. Whenever there is an attempt to present "the other side," the passage is usually preceded by "The Turkish Government claims..." Keeping in mind we all know how dishonest spokespeople from any government can be. (And reinforcing the erroneous view that only the Turkish Government objects to the Armenian version of history.)


"Unfortunately, if something is shouted loud enough, there are always those who believe it..."

No person of Turkish heritage would accept what the Turkish Government has to say about this issue, as the final word. Just like no person of Armenian heritage should care about what the Armenian side has to say. What every person needs to do is look at the facts. If there were REAL proof of government- sponsored evil planned against the Armenians, a people who peacefully lived with and prospered beside the Turks for over five centuries, it would be Turks crying out against such horrors before most everyone else... one's humanity and integrity should ideally supersede loyalty to one's ethnic tribe.

What Dr. Joseph Goebbels, Nazi Minister of Propaganda, swore by is unfortunately very true: If you tell a lie... especially a big lie... enough times, people will believe it. The often told "Armenian Genocide" tale... a tale told hardly with any opposition in nations sympathetic to the "Christian" Armenians... has been so ingrained within people's belief systems that any attempt to shed light on the actual truth is often violently rejected. Why, everyone knows those Turks were bloodthirsty savages!

"(This) one-sided and unreliable information (about any people) after a long period of unchallenged time, would create hostility and hatred that would not be easily overcome.” (Cyrus Hamlin, co-founder of the American missionary college in Istanbul [Robert College], opining on anti-Turkish propaganda, late 19th-Century.)


If anyone is familiar with the 1957 movie "Twelve Angry Men" (based on a television play, starring Henry Fonda and Lee J. Cobb... later remade with Jack Lemmon and George C. Scott)... you might remember how eleven jurors accepted at the outset the "obvious" guilt of the young man on trial, perpetuated by the race of the accused. The message of the film was that things are not always what they seem... and the Henry Fonda character, through logic and facts, turned around the opinions of each of his co-jurors. Quite a task lay before him, since the other co-jurors were motivated by other factors instead of the pertinent one at hand (i.e., Justice), but ultimately truth prevailed... as will inevitably occur one day with the Armenian "genocide," once people put their prejudices aside, and look at the validity of the evidence offered on both sides. We are now in the first fifteen minutes of the movie, and the Turks are in the Henry Fonda role... and the Armenians are in the Lee J. Cobb role. (The one difference in the way our play will work out is that Armenians will never accept that there was no genocide... as the genocide has become too much a reason for the Armenians' existence, and facts become irrelevant, or conveniently altered.)

Innocent until proved guilty beyond reasonable doubt should be the legal principle at work here, and ideally it should not be up to the Turks to prove that they did not commit genocide but for Armenians and their Turk-hating supporters to prove that the Turks did. This "trial" has already historically taken place, as you will soon see... and the resulting "acquittal" hasn't made any difference in the eyes of those who will condemn the Turks, regardless of the facts.


(*Regarding impartiality: this refers to most of the supporting documents presented on this site, particularly those from Western sources... since anyone with a Western background can safely be assumed not to have been raised with a love for Turks; after all, does the Western society exist that favors a glowing image of Turkey? My own writings (I'm Holdwater, by the way; glad to meet you) are often not impartially written... however, if you can prove to me that there definitely was an Armenian genocide, you would find me changing my tune pretty fast. Can you say the same about yourself, if you begin to be convinced what you have been led to believe all this time has mainly been a lie?)


NEW MASS GRAVE OF INNOCENT TURKS AND MUSLIMS WHO WERE KILLED BY ARMENIANS, IS FOUND IN EASTERN TURKEY.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qForZRFT9M


SARI GELIN- Documentary Film Against the Armenian Allegations

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCmg7AdM1tU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqkFA_TgfyY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7Q77jAaIhk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr0kWla0UFs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_p7lh2m8Vw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEg7lAv4kq4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J6KjxKhVKk

GENOCIDE OF AZERIS, BY ARMENIANS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rwp8uCgMoI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIE5uNcbhd8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvpiM5isRJA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iX1vVt57cEg

Lifting_Taurus
12-24-2006, 09:14 AM
Like Ataturk, who said that millions of Christians were murdered in 1922?
Like the Turkish Human RIghts group who stated openly that its time for Turkey to admit that the Ottomans did something horrible, so that it can be realized that since then, during the cold war, the ethnic cleansing continued, and also began to include Kurds.
Like all civilized and educated nations, especially the U.S?

The bold statement is false... There was no attempt at genocide against the kurds.. there was a war between the Turkish military and a terrorist organization known as the PKK.. The PKK built a guerrilla army in Southern turkey northern Iraq, easern Syria and Western Iran.. Through out the mountians.. They were making an attempt at taking these areas from the Turks and the other countries, in order to make their own country callled Kurdistan.. The war began when the Turkish army moved into the south.. The clash went on for nearly 20 years. The PKK is still in existance today and from 1999 to 2003 didn't do anything in the way of vilonece, but then in 2003 the violent acts began again..

The Turkish gov't did not try to wipe out the kurds.. they stopped a politcal group and a terrorist group form stripping away land and breaking apart the republic.. It was bloody and brutal, but it was not genocide..

kvk1
12-24-2006, 09:18 AM
The bold statement is false... There was no attempt at genocide against the kurds.. there was a war between the Turkish military and a terrorist organization known as the PKK.. The PKK built a guerrilla army in Southern turkey northern Iraq, easern Syria and Western Iran.. Through out the mountians.. They were making an attempt at taking these areas from the Turks and the other countries, in order to make their own country callled Kurdistan.. The war began when the Turkish army moved into the south.. The clash went on for nearly 20 years. The PKK is still in existance today and from 1999 to 2003 didn't do anything in the way of vilonece, but then in 2003 the violent acts began again..

The Turkish gov't did not try to wipe out the kurds.. they stopped a politcal group and a terrorist group form stripping away land and breaking apart the republic.. It was bloody and brutal, but it was not genocide..


The PKK is still highly present in Eastern Turkey today and continues killing thousands of Turks.

http://www.pkkterror.com/

It's ALL just some sad **** really...as I have many Armenian, Kurdish and Greek friends from when I used to live in Turkey.

Lifting_Taurus
12-24-2006, 09:21 AM
The PKK is still highly present in Eastern Turkey today and continues killing thousands of Turks.

http://www.pkkterror.com/

It's ALL just some sad **** really...as I have many Armenian, Kurdish and Greek friends from when I used to live in Turkey.

I'm aware of that... Part of my work during deployment puts me in Souther Turkey on a relatively regular basis..

azzazurna
12-24-2006, 01:14 PM
Why is it that you always hear about the Armenian Genocide, but never about the numbers of Turks massacred by the Armenians (before the so-called Armenian Genocide) as part of their agreement with the imperial Russia which promised to offer them protection as a fellow Christian people (and land too, if my memory serves me correctly).

Why is it that you always hear Armenian genocide proponents attributing a quote to Hitler which goes something along the lines of "who remembers the genocide of Armenians?" as if used by him as an excuse to begin the Jewish genocide? Needless to say, as can easily be expected of Armenians, historians had never been able to find that quote used by Hitler or even anything that he said that had to do with Armenians. Why would Hitler not make any mention of such a huge event (1,500,000+ Armenians killed) in recent history? Only true history and facts can tell.

RIP Chuck
12-24-2006, 01:18 PM
alright, I rarely post in this section - but I am an Armenian myself - I was born in Armenia and lived there until I was 7 or 8 years old

my father constantly tells me about this "genocide", and apparently it did not even happen???

RIP Chuck
12-24-2006, 01:40 PM
I'm watching this movie (truth about armenian genocide)

unbelievable... is this stuff true??

wolverinex2
08-17-2007, 12:26 AM
I happened to obtain some important documents about what was going on during the so called genocide, I will try to post it all when I have time to. Posting first parts and the rest is coming.

PRESENTATION
One of the methods used in learning and enlightening of the historical truths
with all their due aspects is the studying of the testimonies of the witnesses.
At this point the testimonies of the first hand eye-witnesses become
extremely important.
The sources of reference used in studying the events that took place on the
Eastern Front, during the First World War, are the archive documents. The
importance of the testimonies of the eye-witnesses in revealing the true
aspects of the Armenian atrocities can never be denied. The documentpublication
series ?Armenian Activities in the Archive Documents 1914-1918,?
published by the Turkish General Staff Directorate of Military History and
Strategic Studies, also includes documents revealing the observations of the
first hand witnesses.
One of the first-hand witnesses of the events that took place at the Eastern
Front happens to be Lieutenant Colonel Tverdohlebov, the Russian
Commander of the 2nd Armenian-Russian Fortress Artillery Regiment.
Lieutenant Colonel Tverdohlebov?s personal documents presented in this
book reveal the Armenian terror activities he himself witnessed and lived
through. The documents embracing Lieutenant Colonel Tverdohlebov?s first
hand experiences of Armenian atrocities realized in and around Erzurum and
Erzincan, between the last months of 1917 and the first months of 1918,
serve as a witness to world history.
While Lieutenant Colonel Tverdohlebov?s original handwritings, found at the
Archives of the Turkish General Staff Directorate of Military History and
Strategic Studies, are being submitted to the attention of the world public
opinion and to the use of the academia, in Turkish, English, and French
languages, together with the originals in Russian, in a single volume, the
extend the Armenian terror reached is revealed with all its nakedness.
The extend the Armenian atrocities reached was more than enough for a
Russian officer to bear, who in fact was fighting against the Turks together
with the Armenians. Lieutenant Colonel Tverdohlebov wrote, in his diary, his
words of deep grief for not having been able to stop the Armenian violence
despite all the power he had.
We now would like to inquire: Those of you who talk about the Armenian
genocide, what say you to these documents?

wolverinex2
08-17-2007, 12:29 AM
I WITNESSED and LIVED THROUGH
(Erzurum 1917-1918)
Lt.Col. TVERDOHLEBOV


Notes pertaining to the Armenians? attitude towards the Turks living
in Erzurum and in the settlements nearby, between the outbreak of
the Russian Revolution and the delivering of Erzurum by the Turkish
Forces on March 12, 1918.
These notes are appended to the ?Notes on the State of the Second
Russian Artillery Regiment?. These notes are prepared separately to
serve as an individual document.


The Turkish-Armenian enmity that is known by the European and the
Russian public opinion has reached its peak with the events
experienced during the First World War.
Armenians? aversion to the Turks is a renowned fact throughout the
ages. Armenians have always been successful in presenting
themselves as a nation subjected to heavy torture, and oppression by
the uncivilized bigoted Turks.
The Russians who had close relations with the Armenians to a certain
extent have developed different views on their level of civilization.
Armenians having considerably vile, surprising, and rapacious
character can only live off on others. However, the Russian peasants
have different judgments on them. I heard the Russian soldiers
saying, ?Turks have only treated them roughly, but did not kill them.
They should have killed them to the last man!?
The Armenian troops among the Russian soldiers have always been
regarded as the most inferior. They have always preferred working in
the rear echelons rather than fighting at the fronts. The increases in
the desertion of the Armenians and in their wounding themselves are
all definite proofs of the idea developed.
The things I personally witnessed and heard during the two months
that passed until the Turkish forces? delivering Erzurum are beyond all
the evil one would think of the Armenians.
None of the Armenians were allowed to enter neither in the city nor
in its environs during the occupation of Erzurum by the Russians in
1916. During the office of the Commander of the 1st Corps General
Kaltin, who was the commander of the forces in Erzurum and its
environs, no military units having Armenian troops were sent to this
region.
After the lifting of all the measures, following the Revolution,
Armenians attacked Erzurum and its environs in waves.
Synchronous to those attacks, the houses in Erzurum and in the
villages were pillaged and people were killed. The presence of the
Russian units and Russians were keeping the Armenians from
committing massacres. They were conducting massacres and
pillaging in secret and cautiously.
In 1917, the Erzurum Revolutionary Executive Committee, mainly
composed of the Armenian military personnel, launched a search for
confiscating the firearms the people had. As the searches could not
have been carried out properly, troops of uncontrollable mob
gradually started full scale pillaging. The Armenian troops did their
best to tyrannize and torture people during battles.
One day, as I was riding through one of the streets in Erzurum I saw
a group of soldiers, lead by an Armenian, dragging two elderly
Turkish people, both about 70 years old, along the street. An
Armenian soldier was carrying a whip made of wire fencing. Streets
were all covered with ditches and mud.
This mob, composed mainly of the Armenian soldiers, was dragging
these two poor elderly men in mud all over the street. The elderly
men were drenched in mud, and whenever they found an opportunity
to stand up they would drag them again and commit all sorts of
torture.
I tried hard to persuade them to behave in a civilized manner
towards those two poor elderly men. The Armenian soldier leading
the mob, walked over me with his whip made of wire fencing, and
shouted, ?You are backing them are not you? They are killing us, and
you are backing them!? The mob started walking over me. At that
time, the Russian soldiers were so out of control that they were
beating, and even murdering the Russian officers.

wolverinex2
08-17-2007, 12:31 AM
Situation was getting worse. Upon arriving of a patrol column under the command
of an officer the situation changed. Armenians disappeared all of a
sudden. The patrol column saved those men and took them to their
homes without uttering any words of insult.
There was a danger of Armenians? rushing into the region, right after
the withdrawing of the Russian units at their own initiative, and
committing massacres on the Turks until the arrival of the units of
other nations.
The prominent Armenians were guaranteeing that no such thing
would happen again. They were trying to make everybody believe
that all the measures for the establishment of neighborly relations
between the Armenians and the Turks were taken.
It was believed that peace and order would be established. After the
Revolution, the mosques used as dormitories and depots by the
Russian forces were all cleaned and evacuated. A joint police force
was set up with the inclusion of the Turks and Armenians. Armenians
were loudly advocating the setting up of Martial Courts and practicing
of capital punishment for those who committed massacres and
pillaging.
It was soon discovered that all were nothing but wiles and traps.
Turks who were taken into this police force started abandoning their
places immediately. Because, the Turkish night patrols started to
disappear all of a sudden and nothing was heard of them ever. Even
the Turks who were taken out of the city to work were not coming
back. The members of the Martial Courts established did not try or
punish any of the criminals as they feared to be sentenced to capital
punishment.
The number of the massacres and pillaging started to increase
steeply. One night, at the end of January according to old calendar in
other words at t the beginning of February; Armenian gangs
murdered Hacı Bekir Effendi, one of the most prominent people in
Erzurum, at his home. The Commander-in-Chief Odichelitz?(1) ordered
the unit commanders the finding of the murderer within 3 days.
The Commander-in-Chief talked at the commanders of the Armenian
units condemning them, in its most general terms, about the
disgraceful deeds of their troops. He also said that he was extremely
offended by the pillaging and the brutal force exerted on the people.
He voiced his anger about the Turkish people, who were taken out
from their homes under the pretext of having them work on the
roads, most of whom were somehow kept from returning. He
reiterated his ideas saying if the Armenians are really the owners of
the occupied Armenian territory, they ought to display their honesty
and the level of their moral values as a nation, thinking of the honor
of the Armenian nation; and that they ought to act within frame work
of the law; and do everything possible to curb all the barbarousness
and brutality committed by the mob. He pointed out that the
intellectuals were obliged to do it. Moreover, he said, at a time when
the handing of the occupied region over to the Armenians was not
yet decided at a peace conference, and at a time when the First
World War had not come to an end, the Armenians ought to obey the
rules of the law much more carefully.
The Armenian commanders of the Armenian units, and the
representatives of the troops declared that it was not appropriate to
libel the name of the Armenian nation by just equating them with a
couple of murderous gang members; that some of the deserters
might have wanted to take revenge on the past deeds of the Turks;
that the Armenian intellectuals were doing their best to curb those
events; and finally that they were thinking of taking decisive
measures and implement those measures.
Soon I heard that the Armenians were massacring the Turkish people
in Erzincan. I heard all the details of the massacres directly from my
Commander-in-Chief Odichelitz? in person.
The event happened as follows. The massacres were organized by a
doctor and a contractor. In other words it was not conducted by one
of the gang members. I cannot write the names of those two
Armenians as I do not remember their last names. More than 800
unarmed innocent Turks were massacred. Only an Armenian was
killed while the massacred were trying to defend themselves. They
slaughtered the people as if they were sheep. They had the people
whom they sentenced to death dig large ditches. They took the
people to edges of those ditches in groups and after having
butchered them like beasts they dumped them into those ditches.
One of the Armenians was counting the corpses thrown into ditches
and upon his saying, ?Is there only 80 people? It can take 10 more!
Slaughter another 10!? disdainfully ten more people were slaughtered,
thrown into the ditch and the corpses were covered with earth.
______________________________________________
(1) Georgian origin Commander of the Russian Caucasian Army.

wolverinex2
08-17-2007, 01:53 AM
This Armenian contractor is said to have ordered the taking out
innocent Turks from a building one by one. And he, just for fun,
chopped the heads of some 80 people one by one as they were
coming out of the door.
The deserter Armenians who were equipped with the most modern
weapons started to retreat towards Erzurum after the Erzincan
massacres. The Russian artillery officers, who were to protect the
logistics lines from the kurdish attacks, were forced to retreat with
their guns.
In one of those lines a necessity of placing a unit for a probable clash
occurred. The Armenians, who were discomforted with the orders,
set the Russian officers? houses a fire while they were sleeping,
Russian officers barely managed to get out. Most of their war gears
were burned into ashes.
The Armenian mobs retreating from Erzincan to Erzurum
exterminated all the Muslim villagers they met on their way. The
artillery guns that were being withdrawn from the logistics support
lines were being transferred on the covered wagons. The wagons
were under the care of the hired, civilian and unarmed kurds. As the
convoy came closer to Erzurum, the Armenian deserters and the
troops started to kill those kurds at the places where they stopped for
a rest. They realized their evil deeds whenever the Russian officers
entered their rooms. Whenever the Russian officers came out of their
rooms on hearing the clamors, and tried to save the kurds, the armed
mob walked over, and threatened them with the same end.
Those massacres were carried out in the most repulsive manner. For
example, at a meeting held by the artillery officers at the Erzurum
Garrison, Lieutenant Mzivani narrated an incident he witnessed: an
Armenian soldier approached a kurd who was dying in agony,
running, and tried to push the stick in his hand into his mouth. As he
could not manage to push the stick into his mouth that was tightly
closed, he took the dying man?s clothes off, and started to kick his
naked body with his iron heeled boots.
All of those who could not manage to flee from Ilıca2 were
massacred. The Army Commander [General Odichelitz?] said he saw
lots of corpses belonging to children whose throats were butchered
with blunt knives, and bodies cut into thin and long strips.

Lieutenant Colonel Gryaznof, who went to Ilıca three weeks after the
massacres, on his return on February 26 told me about a scene he saw
there: ?the corpses are lying along the village roads in the open air. All
the Armenians going in the front were spitting on the corpses and
cursing at them. A mosque yard about 12-15 square sagenes [an area
roughly equal to 55-70 square meters] was covered with the corpses
of the senior Turkish citizens as well as of men, women, and children
that formed a pile reaching 1.5 meters in height. The traces of vile
assaults were observed on the women?s corpses. Rifle cartridges were
pushed into the genital organs of most of the women.?
Lieutenant Colonel Gryaznov said he had called two Armenian girls,
who were following a series of courses, to the mosque. They were
working as telephone operators at the detachment. He told them to
witness what the Armenians had accomplished there. Lt.Col.
Gryaznov found their joyous laughter bizarre.
Lieutenant Colonel reproved them severely expressing his anger and
indignation in fury. He asked, ?How could the well-bred and well-
educated Armenian girls laugh and exhibit joyous behavior at the
sight of such an event?? He said, ?This is an enough proof for
Armenians?, even their women?s, being more contemptible than the
wildest animals. This is even much more than an officer, who is
shaken by this sight, and who has seen many battles and terrible
events, can bear!? The Armenian girls replied him saying that they
laughed as a result of nervous breakdown.
A contractor working at the Alaca3 Logistics Support Command, told
us about a despicable event that took place in Alaca on February 27.
The Armenians nailed a Turkish woman upon a wall alive; took her
heart out and placed it on her head.
The first full scale massacre in Erzurum started on February 7. As it is
now claimed, the soldiers of the artillery regiment gathered some 270
Turks from the streets by force. They captured them and locked them
up in the baths in the barracks displaying their true intentions. I
managed to save only 100 of them. I have just learned that the others
were released by the soldiers after their learning about my arrival.
Under the light of the testimonies of the rescued, this vile attempt was
realized by the Armenian Reserve Officer Karagadayev, who was
temporarily appointed to the artillery regiment from the infantry units.
I still could not have determined his role in this event clearly.

Turco
08-17-2007, 07:11 AM
Google "The 1923 Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni". Katchaznouni was the first Prime Minister of the independent Armenian Republic. This is an invaluable source (by Armenian themselves) to invalidate the so-called Armenian "Genocide"... Some Armenian pseudo-scholars have a hard time admitting the existence of this document, and the Armenian militia has tried to eradicate the book from the world libraries...Now that there is the internet, the "manifest" will never be lost.

---

Basically, Armenians are the sore losers of a civil war they desperately hoped to win. They talk about the hundreds of thousands (sometimes millions) that were killed by the Turks, while failing to mention the hundreds of thousands of Turks that were killed by Armenian mobs/militia.

okasha
08-17-2007, 07:20 AM
wow...this is messed up....







Lieutenant Colonel Gryaznof, who went to Ilıca three weeks after the
massacres, on his return on February 26 told me about a scene he saw
there: ?the corpses are lying along the village roads in the open air. All
the Armenians going in the front were spitting on the corpses and
cursing at them. A mosque yard about 12-15 square sagenes [an area
roughly equal to 55-70 square meters] was covered with the corpses
of the senior Turkish citizens as well as of men, women, and children
that formed a pile reaching 1.5 meters in height. The traces of vile
assaults were observed on the women?s corpses. Rifle cartridges were
pushed into the genital organs of most of the women.?

kvk1
08-17-2007, 09:29 AM
"Unfortunately, if something is shouted loud enough, there are always those who believe it..."

Before you go on, at your own speed visit the following three pages. First, take a look at a brief background as to what went in an American professor's words: http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/background.htm

...followed by an important scenario: http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/scenario.htm

Last, you'll be guided to what should be the often ignored end-all argument: http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/3-trial.htm


ARMENIAN PROPAGANDA?

To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity.
Roy P. Basler


Turkish children and women killed by the Armenians. Some of the women were killed by taking the babies out from their wombs. Subatan, April 25, 1918. Reference:Massacre Exerted By The Armenian On The Turks During World War I Pictures http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/628...board02ac4.jpg

For many years in American media, the Indian was portrayed as the savage "bad guy." Certainly, native Americans hardly had anyone speaking on their behalf, and it was natural for the public to unquestioningly accept a one-sided version of events. Finally, as the indisputable truth became reported more and more (especially following the1960s publication of Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee), the real version of this historical conflict became widely accepted. Ironically, the formerly accepted "good guy" side was revealed to have been the actual dishonorable ones (having broken every treaty) and the ones significantly engaged in heartless slaughters, coupled with, at times, campaigns of systematic extermination.

For nearly a century, the Western World has wholeheartedly accepted that there has been an attempt by the Ottoman Turks to systematically destroy the Armenian people, comparable to what the Nazis committed upon the Jews during World War II. Many Armenians who have settled in America, Europe and Australia (along with other parts of the world, known as "The Armenian Diaspora") have clung to the tragic events of so long ago as a form of ethnic identity, and have considered it their duty to perpetuate this myth, with little regard for facts... at the same time breeding hatred among their young. As descendants of the merchant class from the Ottoman Empire, Armenians have been successful in acquiring the wealth and power to make their voices heard... and they have made good use of the "Christian" connection to gain the sympathies of Westerners who share their religion and prejudices.

Turks characteristically shun propaganda, and have chosen not to dwell on the tragedies of the past, forging ahead to build upon brotherhood ? not hate. This is why the horrifying massacres committed upon the Turks, Kurds and other Ottoman Muslims by Armenians have seldom been heard. When such reports are heard, Westerners can be callously dismissive... Turkish lives are apparently as meaningless to them as Indian lives were to most early Americans.

(The following is an excerpt from Dr. Leon Picon, reviewing the book, "THE ARMENIAN FILE"):

How successfully the Turks could have warded off the resultant stigma through counter-propaganda will never be known. But it is certain that in 1922 Sultan Mohammed Vl put it quite succinctly and pointedly, when he told the American writer E. Alexander Powell:

?If we sent one, your newspapers and periodicals would not publish an article written by a Turk, if they published it, your people would not read it, if they read it, they would not believe it. Even if we sent a qualified person to America, to convey to you in your language, the Turkish point of view, would he find an impartial audience?? [Gurun, File, p. 37]


It's amazing that whenever the "Armenian Genocide" is referred to in Western media, journalists seem to fall all over themselves in presenting the perspective totally from the Armenian propaganda machinery. Whenever there is an attempt to present "the other side," the passage is usually preceded by "The Turkish Government claims..." Keeping in mind we all know how dishonest spokespeople from any government can be. (And reinforcing the erroneous view that only the Turkish Government objects to the Armenian version of history.)


"Unfortunately, if something is shouted loud enough, there are always those who believe it..."

No person of Turkish heritage would accept what the Turkish Government has to say about this issue, as the final word. Just like no person of Armenian heritage should care about what the Armenian side has to say. What every person needs to do is look at the facts. If there were REAL proof of government- sponsored evil planned against the Armenians, a people who peacefully lived with and prospered beside the Turks for over five centuries, it would be Turks crying out against such horrors before most everyone else... one's humanity and integrity should ideally supersede loyalty to one's ethnic tribe.

What Dr. Joseph Goebbels, Nazi Minister of Propaganda, swore by is unfortunately very true: If you tell a lie... especially a big lie... enough times, people will believe it. The often told "Armenian Genocide" tale... a tale told hardly with any opposition in nations sympathetic to the "Christian" Armenians... has been so ingrained within people's belief systems that any attempt to shed light on the actual truth is often violently rejected. Why, everyone knows those Turks were bloodthirsty savages!

"(This) one-sided and unreliable information (about any people) after a long period of unchallenged time, would create hostility and hatred that would not be easily overcome.? (Cyrus Hamlin, co-founder of the American missionary college in Istanbul [Robert College], opining on anti-Turkish propaganda, late 19th-Century.)


If anyone is familiar with the 1957 movie "Twelve Angry Men" (based on a television play, starring Henry Fonda and Lee J. Cobb... later remade with Jack Lemmon and George C. Scott)... you might remember how eleven jurors accepted at the outset the "obvious" guilt of the young man on trial, perpetuated by the race of the accused. The message of the film was that things are not always what they seem... and the Henry Fonda character, through logic and facts, turned around the opinions of each of his co-jurors. Quite a task lay before him, since the other co-jurors were motivated by other factors instead of the pertinent one at hand (i.e., Justice), but ultimately truth prevailed... as will inevitably occur one day with the Armenian "genocide," once people put their prejudices aside, and look at the validity of the evidence offered on both sides. We are now in the first fifteen minutes of the movie, and the Turks are in the Henry Fonda role... and the Armenians are in the Lee J. Cobb role. (The one difference in the way our play will work out is that Armenians will never accept that there was no genocide... as the genocide has become too much a reason for the Armenians' existence, and facts become irrelevant, or conveniently altered.)

Innocent until proved guilty beyond reasonable doubt should be the legal principle at work here, and ideally it should not be up to the Turks to prove that they did not commit genocide but for Armenians and their Turk-hating supporters to prove that the Turks did. This "trial" has already historically taken place, as you will soon see... and the resulting "acquittal" hasn't made any difference in the eyes of those who will condemn the Turks, regardless of the facts.


(*Regarding impartiality: this refers to most of the supporting documents presented on this site, particularly those from Western sources... since anyone with a Western background can safely be assumed not to have been raised with a love for Turks; after all, does the Western society exist that favors a glowing image of Turkey? My own writings (I'm Holdwater, by the way; glad to meet you) are often not impartially written... however, if you can prove to me that there definitely was an Armenian genocide, you would find me changing my tune pretty fast. Can you say the same about yourself, if you begin to be convinced what you have been led to believe all this time has mainly been a lie?)



NEW MASS GRAVE OF INNOCENT TURKS AND MUSLIMS WHO WERE KILLED BY ARMENIANS, IS FOUND IN EASTERN TURKEY.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qForZRFT9M


SARI GELIN- Documentary Film Against the Armenian Allegations

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCmg7AdM1tU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqkFA_TgfyY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7Q77jAaIhk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr0kWla0UFs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_p7lh2m8Vw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEg7lAv4kq4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J6KjxKhVKk

GENOCIDE OF AZERIS, BY ARMENIANS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rwp8uCgMoI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIE5uNcbhd8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvpiM5isRJA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iX1vVt57cEg

...

Guardian
08-17-2007, 09:30 AM
Not sure how many people are edcuated about this. Personally I never heard of it until someone gave me this URL. Check it out, history lesson.

http://www.theforgotten.org/site/intro_eng.html

Its also one of the areas Hitler talked about as quoted saying "who remembers the Armenians," if you ask me he should have known that Jewish people would never let the event be forgotten, maybe he wasnt as smart as people say after all :) (sarcasm).

But on a serious note I did study the genocide and it was quite sadd. Those people were forced to walk long distances in terrible conditions I gotta go to lunch maybe il post more later.