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View Full Version : Joe Flacco is a top 5 QB in the NFL



VernonWellsFargo
10-18-2009, 01:17 PM
That is all.

chasebattle
10-18-2009, 01:20 PM
He missssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssed

EHSTennis
10-18-2009, 01:20 PM
yep... Had flacco, brees, and favre in a league. Started brees, but would have been happy with any of their performances.

VernonWellsFargo
10-18-2009, 01:21 PM
in b4 missed FG is somehow reflected on flacco

NoS_oUtLaSt
10-18-2009, 01:23 PM
in b4 missed FG is somehow reflected on flacco
People only remember winners
















j/k. But i still don't think he is top 5

lrm546
10-18-2009, 01:27 PM
2nd great 4th quarter come from behind drive that flaccos teammates have ruined


**** this bull****ing *** **** bitch ****

evilsteve02
10-18-2009, 01:42 PM
by QB rating
P. Manning
E. Manning
Brees
Favre
hasselbeck

flacco is 12...so no he isn't top 5...he isn't even top 10. I only say that because becuase i can think of 8 or 9 QB's i would rather have under center than Flacco. He's good, don't get me wrong, but top 5...i think not.

C-Squared
10-18-2009, 02:14 PM
by QB rating
P. Manning
E. Manning
Brees
Favre
hasselbeck

flacco is 12...so no he isn't top 5...he isn't even top 10. I only say that because becuase i can think of 8 or 9 QB's i would rather have under center than Flacco. He's good, don't get me wrong, but top 5...i think not.

The QB rating system is a lazy way to rank QB's to be honest...

I think you have to rank players still on the upside in a different category than a guy like Favre or Manning... Eli, Cutler, Rivers, Big Ben, Flacco, Ryan, etc should be ranked amongst each other for a more true telling of which young QB's are doing the best.

thegenerel
10-18-2009, 02:18 PM
That is all.

oh, so you dont have any more retardation to share?

evilsteve02
10-19-2009, 08:37 AM
The QB rating system is a lazy way to rank QB's to be honest...

I think you have to rank players still on the upside in a different category than a guy like Favre or Manning... Eli, Cutler, Rivers, Big Ben, Flacco, Ryan, etc should be ranked amongst each other for a more true telling of which young QB's are doing the best.


well when they invent the position "super quarterback" and seperate it form a normal quarterback i am sure they will do that. I think it's fine the way they do it, each season is a new season for every player in the league. Who cares what favre or manning did last year...that was last year.

Greg1983
10-19-2009, 08:40 AM
well when they invent the position "super quarterback" and seperate it form a normal quarterback i am sure they will do that. I think it's fine the way they do it, each season is a new season for every player in the league. Who cares what favre or manning did last year...that was last year.

This. OP claimed Flacco was a top 5 QB in the league. Not that he was a top 5 young QB (which isn't even the case if you include guys like Rivers/Rodgers/Cutler/Roethlisberger/Manning).

C-Squared
10-19-2009, 08:58 AM
well when they invent the position "super quarterback" and seperate it form a normal quarterback i am sure they will do that. I think it's fine the way they do it, each season is a new season for every player in the league. Who cares what favre or manning did last year...that was last year.

While we're at it, let's rank true freshman QB's against starting seniors!

Besides, you ducked the fact that you based your stance of Q ratings, which is asinine and takes fantasy football over reality...

Greg1983
10-19-2009, 09:02 AM
While we're at it, let's rank true freshman QB's against starting seniors!

Besides, you ducked the fact that you based your stance of Q ratings, which is asinine and takes fantasy football over reality...

I don't think anyone thinks QB Rating is perfect, and that ranking the 32 QBs in the league by it forms a hard fast and absolute ranking. But it's one of the better ones we have, so it's as good a place as any to start from. In general, the guys at the top are the better QBs and the guys at the bottom are the worse QBs. Except Kerry Collins of course.

jkeithc82
10-19-2009, 09:05 AM
Besides, you ducked the fact that you based your stance of Q ratings, which is asinine and takes fantasy football over reality...

I've never been in a fantasy football league that used QB rating.

Just sayin.

C-Squared
10-19-2009, 09:07 AM
I don't think anyone thinks QB Rating is perfect, and that ranking the 32 QBs in the league by it forms a hard fast and absolute ranking. But it's one of the better ones we have, so it's as good a place as any to start from. In general, the guys at the top are the better QBs and the guys at the bottom are the worse QBs. Except Kerry Collins of course.

Strong "in general" buffer. Every year, a bad QB hits the top 10 by the season's end.

Let me know when you start watching games, killer!

samcanadian
10-19-2009, 09:07 AM
yo Remixer, I'm really happy for you and Imma let you finish, but Brett Favre is one of the greatest QB's of all TIME...

wsuwarrior
10-19-2009, 09:09 AM
He is a good QB but putting him top 5 is a jake.

JolietKev
10-19-2009, 09:09 AM
No.

VernonWellsFargo
10-19-2009, 09:16 AM
This. OP claimed Flacco was a top 5 QB in the league. Not that he was a top 5 young QB (which isn't even the case if you include guys like Rivers/Rodgers/Cutler/Roethlisberger/Manning).

you see look at the receiving core these guys have, its easy to say flacco and cutler do more with less

Messiahtype
10-19-2009, 09:16 AM
Manning, Brees, Brady, Favre(ugh), Marmalard, Rodgers, Eli, and Ben are better than Flacco. So...no.

VernonWellsFargo
10-19-2009, 09:19 AM
Manning, Brees, Brady, Favre(ugh), Marmalard, Rodgers, Eli, and Ben are better than Flacco. So...no.

give flacco some great WR's see what happens

samcanadian
10-19-2009, 09:21 AM
He is a good QB but putting him top 5 is a jake.

yeah, it's even beyond a joke...it's a jake.

samcanadian
10-19-2009, 09:23 AM
give flacco some great WR's see what happens


If you have a crappy QB throwing to top-notch WR's, the WR's numbers are definitely going to suffer. You've got to get the ball to where they are before they can do anything with it.

wsuwarrior
10-19-2009, 09:23 AM
you see look at the receiving core these guys have, its easy to say flacco and cutler do more with less

Give Flacco diabetes and see what he does.

VernonWellsFargo
10-19-2009, 09:27 AM
If you have a crappy QB throwing to top-notch WR's, the WR's numbers are definitely going to suffer. You've got to get the ball to where they are before they can do anything with it.

oh didnt know flacco was a crappy QB who had TOP-NOTCH receivers

nickrut
10-19-2009, 09:28 AM
Disagree, even as a Ravens fan. However, he does ALOT with ****ty receivers which deserves some acclaim in my book

Greg1983
10-19-2009, 09:29 AM
Strong "in general" buffer. Every year, a bad QB hits the top 10 by the season's end.

Let me know when you start watching games, killer!

Yes, in general. Like I said, it's not perfect, and no one's pretending that it is. But looking at last years' rankings, a top 10 of Rivers, Pennington, Warner, Brees, Manning, Rodgers, Schaub, Romo, Garcia, and Cassell isn't all that far off. Some guys get bumped a little too much due to having a ridiculous supporting cast (Cassell) or playing in an offensive system in which it is easy to have efficient statistics (Pennington and Garcia), and some guys fall a little too far down due to playing hurt (Favre), having a bunch of scrubs trying to protect them (Roethlisberger), and/or being surrounded by zero talent in general (Thigpen, who I thought was playing pretty well all things considered). But statistics are the only unbiased thing we have, and as far as they go, it's probably the best single one. Although I guess since I think stats have some merit it must mean I don't watch the games.

Greg1983
10-19-2009, 09:30 AM
you see look at the receiving core these guys have, its easy to say flacco and cutler do more with less

I'm a big Flacco fan. I just think top 5 is ridiculous.

JolietKev
10-19-2009, 09:32 AM
I'm a big Flacco fan. I just think top 5 is ridiculous.

Agree. Big Ben does not even get that kind of praise and he has won two SBs.

samcanadian
10-19-2009, 09:34 AM
oh didnt know flacco was a crappy QB who had TOP-NOTCH receivers

That's not what I meant. I was just presenting an argument from the other side of the spectrum. Flacco's WR's are mediocre, but it's not like they dropped 15 passes yesterday. Actually, yesterday's a bad example because he played pretty good. I guess I'm trying to say that not all QB's are made or broken because of the WRs they're throwing to. Has more to do with the rest of their supporting cast. Look at Cassel in New England last year.

samcanadian
10-19-2009, 09:35 AM
Agree. Big Ben does not even get that kind of praise and he has won two SBs.

He's the poster boy for underrated QBs I think.

JolietKev
10-19-2009, 09:38 AM
He's the poster boy for underrated QBs I think.

Agree. He is not a fantasy guy, buy has won and won and won..... I hope Flacco does well though, just not against the Steelers. :)

VernonWellsFargo
10-19-2009, 09:45 AM
Agree. He is not a fantasy guy, buy has won and won and won..... I hope Flacco does well though, just not against the Steelers. :)

going by whath e has done so far he should continue to do well, especially when he gets a great receiver or 2, mason right now at best is a number 2 guy

DocHollidy
10-19-2009, 09:55 AM
I'm a Ravens fan, I dont necessarily agree yet, but he will be...

And ****ty receivers guys? We have Mason, and Heap

Mason is the most underrated reciever in the league, he is always putting up 1000 yard seasons,

And Heap has dealed with injuries but is probably top 3-5 recieving TE's in the league when he is healthy.

VernonWellsFargo
10-19-2009, 10:00 AM
I'm a Ravens fan, I dont necessarily agree yet, but he will be...

And ****ty receivers guys? We have Mason, and Heap

Mason is the most underrated reciever in the league, he is always putting up 1000 yard seasons,

And Heap has dealed with injuries but is probably top 3-5 recieving TE's in the league when he is healthy.

hes at best a number 2 WR he hasnt posted a 10 TD season, and his most recent 8td season came in 2003 with the titans lol, hes on track this year to have an excellent season, im sure flacco is the main cause of this unless WRs get better in their twilight years

DocHollidy
10-19-2009, 10:03 AM
hes at best a number 2 WR he hasnt posted a 10 TD season, and his most recent 8td season came in 2003 with the titans lol

He hasnt had an offense that throws the ball deep... Before Flacco and Harbaugh, the offense was dink and dunk, 5-6 yard passes on 3rd down and run the rest of the time... Even with Mcnair that one season we went 13-3 it was dink and dunk mostly... Flacco was getting used to the O last year he only had 14 TD, 5 went to mason, the rest went to the RB's for the most part... This year he has 3 in 6 games, so he is on pace to hit around 8, unless he has a good game to make up for the one he missed last week.... He is more than a number 2 unless you put him on the Pats, or a team with an elite WR, I would say he is atleast Top 15 which is saying something since their are 64 Starting WR's in the league. Not including teams that run a 3 WR package as a base O... I mean hell Moss only has 4 TDs this year...

VernonWellsFargo
10-19-2009, 10:06 AM
He hasnt had an offense that throws the ball deep... Before Flacco and Harbaugh, the offense was dink and dunk, 5-6 yard passes on 3rd down and run the rest of the time... Even with Mcnair that one season we went 13-3 it was dink and dunk mostly... Flacco was getting used to the O last year he only had 14 TD, 5 went to mason, the rest went to the RB's for the most part... This year he has 3 in 6 games, so he is on pace to hit around 8, unless he has a good game to make up for the one he missed last week.... He is more than a number 2 unless you put him on the Pats, or a team with an elite WR, I would say he is atleast Top 15 which is saying something since their are 64 Starting WR's in the league. Not including teams that run a 3 WR package as a base O

you hit the nail on the head man hes a deep ball threat, a true number 1 WR is a guy whos is going to make the big plays, theres nothing wrong with mason but hes not a number 1 WR

DocHollidy
10-19-2009, 10:07 AM
you hit the nail on the head man hes a deep ball threat, a true number 1 WR is a guy whos is going to make the big plays, theres nothing wrong with mason but hes not a number 1 WR

I'll agree to an extent, but Mason is known for running precise routes, and is more of a short pass situation guy who makes YAC.

VernonWellsFargo
10-19-2009, 10:23 AM
I'll agree to an extent, but Mason is known for running precise routes, and is more of a short pass situation guy who makes YAC.

this is true but hes not consistent enough

lrm546
10-19-2009, 10:29 AM
I'm a Ravens fan, I dont necessarily agree yet, but he will be...

And ****ty receivers guys? We have Mason, and Heap

Mason is the most underrated reciever in the league, he is always putting up 1000 yard seasons,

And Heap has dealed with injuries but is probably top 3-5 recieving TE's in the league when he is healthy.

Heap is not a top 3-5 receiving tight end anymore. He used to be. Agreed on Mason, but he'd be a perfect #2 wr.


Right now, Flacco isn't a top 5 but he is closer than a lot of people think. He's going to be one of the 2 or 3 best qb's in the league for a long time. Him and Matt Ryan will be the face of NFL qb's like Manning/Brady

VernonWellsFargo
10-19-2009, 10:30 AM
Heap is not a top 3-5 receiving tight end anymore. He used to be. Agreed on Mason, but he'd be a perfect #2 wr.


Right now, Flacco isn't a top 5 but he is closer than a lot of people think. He's going to be one of the 2 or 3 best qb's in the league for a long time. Him and Matt Ryan will be the face of NFL qb's like Manning/Brady

this

Sick96stang
10-19-2009, 11:13 AM
While we're at it, let's rank true freshman QB's against starting seniors!

Besides, you ducked the fact that you based your stance of Q ratings, which is asinine and takes fantasy football over reality...

What does QB rating and fantasy football have to do with each other?

C-Squared
10-19-2009, 11:15 AM
What does QB rating and fantasy football have to do with each other?

I meant it in the sense of "fantasy vs. reality," it happened to overlap... I blame Adam Shefter, he always uses it in that way too - u mad?

Sick96stang
10-19-2009, 11:26 AM
I meant it in the sense of "fantasy vs. reality," it happened to overlap... I blame Adam Shefter, he always uses it in that way too - u mad?

Well maybe stop listening to Adam Shefter then in regards to fantasy football. Fantasy stats for a QB include yards, TD's, and INT's. How about that I think when most people rank a QB those are the three main stats they go by. Despite Adam Shefter's thoughts fantasy ranking doesn't stray too far from reality ranking of QB's.

jkeithc82
10-19-2009, 11:28 AM
What does QB rating and fantasy football have to do with each other?

It means that stats alone doesn't indicate a player's value. For example, many people would look at Kerry Collins going 2/12 for -7 yards in yesterday's loss to New England as being a pretty sh!tty day. You may also look at the fact that he has a 55% completion percentage with 5 TD and 8 INTs as indicative of being a lower tier starting QB in this league. Well sweetie you would be dead wrong. Unless you've watched every single pass, every single snap and every single minute of every single game this season you have no basis to comment on anything relating to someone like Kerry Collins' performance. This section is full of stupid people who only concern themselves with empirical data about a player's worth and that is just silly.

C-Squared
10-19-2009, 11:29 AM
Well maybe stop listening to Adam Shefter then in regards to fantasy football. Fantasy stats for a QB include yards, TD's, and INT's. How about that I think when most people rank a QB those are the three main stats they go by. Despite Adam Shefter's thoughts fantasy ranking doesn't stray too far from reality ranking of QB's.

You do know that the word "fantasy" existed before the little online game, right?

QB ratings don't stray far from reality? Former Bills QB Rob Johnson's QB ratings in the 90's:

1997: 111.9
1998: 102.9
1999: 119.5

Why hasn't he gone down as a legend of the game? The QB rating system put him at the top of the league for YEARS.

C-Squared
10-19-2009, 11:29 AM
It means that stats alone doesn't indicate a player's value. For example, many people would look at Kerry Collins going 2/12 for -7 yards in yesterday's loss to New England as being a pretty sh!tty day. You may also look at the fact that he has a 55% completion percentage with 5 TD and 8 INTs as indicative of being a lower tier starting QB in this league. Well sweetie you would be dead wrong. Unless you've watched every single pass, every single snap and every single minute of every single game this season you have no basis to comment on anything relating to someone like Kerry Collins' performance. This section is full of stupid people who only concern themselves with empirical data about a player's worth and that is just silly.

LOL mods can be sanctimonious, pandering losers too, that's so cool!

Read my post above about how great your cherished QB rating system is, *******... completion percentage counts too high and sacks don't even count at all. Wow.

jkeithc82
10-19-2009, 11:31 AM
LOL mods can be sanctimonious, pandering losers too, that's so cool!

Read my post above about how great your cherished QB rating system is, *******...

What are you talking about? I'm agreeing with you.

C-Squared
10-19-2009, 11:33 AM
What are you talking about? I'm agreeing with you.

You have charisma like the 70's Steelers defense had healthy T-levels, just sayin...

jkeithc82
10-19-2009, 11:34 AM
You have charisma like the 70's Steelers defense had healthy T-levels, just sayin...

I don't know what you're talking about man, I am on your side. The lemmings in this section who play their fantasy sports and judge people by stats, claiming to be "football fans" give the rest of us a bad name.

C-Squared
10-19-2009, 11:36 AM
I don't know what you're talking about man, I am on your side. The lemmings in this section who play their fantasy sports and judge people by stats, claiming to be "football fans" give the rest of us a bad name.

Years on bb.com: 4
Stats for lifts posted: 0

If you put as much effort in the gym as you do into being an internet hero, you might really be somewhere right now.

Sick96stang
10-19-2009, 11:38 AM
It means that stats alone doesn't indicate a player's value. For example, many people would look at Kerry Collins going 2/12 for -7 yards in yesterday's loss to New England as being a pretty sh!tty day. You may also look at the fact that he has a 55% completion percentage with 5 TD and 8 INTs as indicative of being a lower tier starting QB in this league. Well sweetie you would be dead wrong. Unless you've watched every single pass, every single snap and every single minute of every single game this season you have no basis to comment on anything relating to someone like Kerry Collins' performance. This section is full of stupid people who only concern themselves with empirical data about a player's worth and that is just silly.

So unless you've seen every single snap by a player you have no basis to comment on them as a player... good logic. My point was simply that fantasy rankings aren't going to vary from reality rankings very much. If you disagree please do list reality rankings and fantasy rankings and lets see just how different they are.

Greg1983
10-19-2009, 11:39 AM
Years on bb.com: 4
Stats for lifts posted: 0

If you put as much effort in the gym as you do into being an internet hero, you might really be somewhere right now.

Come on, if you're going to put down others' lifting accomplishments at least break the 175 pound barrier first.

jkeithc82
10-19-2009, 11:39 AM
Years on bb.com: 4
Stats for lifts posted: 0

If you put as much effort in the gym as you do into being an internet hero, you might really be somewhere right now.

Well I could list my stats for my lifts but they wouldn't matter would they? I mean, have you actually SEEN me lift at the gym?

Sick96stang
10-19-2009, 11:39 AM
You do know that the word "fantasy" existed before the little online game, right?

QB ratings don't stray far from reality? Former Bills QB Rob Johnson's QB ratings in the 90's:

1997: 111.9
1998: 102.9
1999: 119.5

Why hasn't he gone down as a legend of the game? The QB rating system put him at the top of the league for YEARS.

When did I say QB ratings don't stray far from reality? I said fantasy rankings don't stray far from reality.

C-Squared
10-19-2009, 11:39 AM
So unless you've seen every single snap by a player you have no basis to comment on them as a player... good logic. My point was simply that fantasy rankings aren't going to vary from reality rankings very much. If you disagree please do list reality rankings and fantasy rankings and lets see just how different they are.

LOL

1) unaware
2) Tell me why Rob Johnson isn't in the HOF, despite his record-setting QB ratings, year in, year out.

Sick96stang
10-19-2009, 11:41 AM
LOL

1) unaware
2) Tell me why Rob Johnson isn't in the HOF, despite his record-setting QB ratings, year in, year out.

Show me where Rob Johnson ranked fantasy wise.

C-Squared
10-19-2009, 11:42 AM
Come on, if you're going to put down others' lifting accomplishments at least break the 175 pound barrier first.

He doesn't have any, that's my point... and you're assuming that I want to bulk up to 225, which would put my 6 hours of cardio per week into question... different goals FTW

Greg1983
10-19-2009, 11:43 AM
You do know that the word "fantasy" existed before the little online game, right?

QB ratings don't stray far from reality? Former Bills QB Rob Johnson's QB ratings in the 90's:

1997: 111.9
1998: 102.9
1999: 119.5

Why hasn't he gone down as a legend of the game? The QB rating system put him at the top of the league for YEARS.

Oh and he started a combined 8 games those years (and 29 games over his career, over which he played statistically much worse). Had he put up those numbers for any meaningful length of time, he would be considered among the greats.

C-Squared
10-19-2009, 11:44 AM
When did I say QB ratings don't stray far from reality? I said fantasy rankings don't stray far from reality.


Despite Adam Shefter's thoughts fantasy ranking doesn't stray too far from reality ranking of QB's.

oh em gee

Greg1983
10-19-2009, 11:44 AM
LOL

1) unaware
2) Tell me why Rob Johnson isn't in the HOF, despite his record-setting QB ratings, year in, year out.


Oh and he started a combined 8 games those years (and 29 games over his career, over which he played statistically much worse). Had he put up those numbers for any meaningful length of time, he would be considered among the greats.

8 games doesn't get a guy into the hall of fame, whether he plays like Peyton Manning or Jamarcus Russell.

samcanadian
10-19-2009, 11:45 AM
I don't know what you're talking about man, I am on your side. The lemmings in this section who play their fantasy sports and judge people by stats, claiming to be "football fans" give the rest of us a bad name.

Easy now...

Sick96stang
10-19-2009, 11:46 AM
oh em gee

QB rating and QB ranking are two different terms... oh em gee. You seem to be confused as to what I said so I'll say it again.

I didn't say QB rating's are accurate, I said fantasy ranking's are accurate compared to reality rankings.

jkeithc82
10-19-2009, 11:46 AM
Show me where Rob Johnson ranked fantasy wise.

Actually, yahoo in the day probably ranked Johnson fairly high. Fantasy rankings are skewed a bit (sometimes a lot). Taking into account the fact that neither Phillip Rivers nor Kyle Orton have played yet this week, the following is a list of yahoo QB rankings (top 5).

3. Matt Schaub
4. Ben Roethlisberger
6. Tom Brady
8. Joe Flacco
9. Peyton Manning

Now, I don't think anyone would agree with the order here, but based on yahoo's ranking system (which, I have no idea how they come up with this) Matt Schaub is the best fantasy QB in the league after week 6.

C-Squared
10-19-2009, 11:47 AM
Oh and he started a combined 8 games those years (and 29 games over his career, over which he played statistically much worse). Had he put up those numbers for any meaningful length of time, he would be considered among the greats.

He had significant playing time in 1998, breh... and once again, the QB rating system doesn't take what you just said into account either. Johnson qualified for placement among starting QB's in 98...


8 games doesn't get a guy into the hall of fame, whether he plays like Peyton Manning or Jamarcus Russell.

Exactly, you're feeding into my point, breh. The QB rating system is an obtuse and dumbed-down way for people to gauge a QB...

Sick96stang
10-19-2009, 11:48 AM
Actually, yahoo in the day probably ranked Johnson fairly high. Fantasy rankings are skewed a bit. Taking into account the fact that neither Phillip Rivers nor Kyle Orton have played yet this week, the following is a list of yahoo QB rankings.

3. Matt Schaub
4. Ben Roethlisberger
6. Tom Brady
8. Joe Flacco
9. Peyton Manning

Now, I don't think anyone would agree with the order here, but based on yahoo's ranking system (which, I have no idea how they come up with this) Matt Schaub is the best fantasy QB in the league after week 6.

If he's #3 how is he the best QB in the leauge? Not to mention you'd be better suited to look at pre season rankings as it takes awhile for the #'s to play themselves out. According to my fantasy magazine the top 3 QB's to take were

#1 Brees
#2 P. Manning
#3 Brady

Would you disagree those are the top 3 QB's in the leauge?

jkeithc82
10-19-2009, 11:50 AM
If he's #3 how is he the best QB in the leauge? Not to mention you'd be better suited to look at pre season rankings as it takes awhile for the #'s to play themselves out. According to my fantasy magazine the top 3 QB's to take were

#1 Brees
#2 P. Manning
#3 Brady

Would you disagree those are the top 3 QB's in the leauge?

Sorry I left that off. Schaub is ranked #3 overall and is the top QB ranked.

1. Adrian Peterson
2. Maurice Jones-Drew
3. Matt Schaub

C-Squared
10-19-2009, 11:51 AM
If he's #3 how is he the best QB in the leauge? Not to mention you'd be better suited to look at pre season rankings as it takes awhile for the #'s to play themselves out. According to my fantasy magazine the top 3 QB's to take were

#1 Brees
#2 P. Manning
#3 Brady

Would you disagree those are the top 3 QB's in the leauge?

The magazines base projections on... projections. Flat stats don't take into account QB's throwing against prevent defenses in garbage time... a QB in that situation would be a better fantasy QB than a Troy Aikman type who would be done throwing by the 3rd quarter, instead handing the ball off to kill the clock...

Now which actually matters in the realm of pro football - fantasy success or reality success?

Sick96stang
10-19-2009, 11:53 AM
By the magazine I have here were the top #5 fantasy rankings for each position

QB's

#1 Drew Brees
#2 Peyton Manning
#3 Tom Brady
#4 Aaron Rodgers
#5 Philip Rivers

RB's

#1 Adrian Peterson
#2 Maurice Jones Drew
#3 Michael Turner
#4 Matt Forte
#5 Steven Jackson

WR's

#1 Larry Fitzgerald
#2 Andre Johnson
#3 Randy Moss
#4 Calvin Johnson
#5 Steve Smith

TE's

#1 Jason Witten
#2 Antonio Gates
#3 Tony Gonzalez
#4 Dallas Clark
#5 Chris Cooley

Defense

#1 Steelers
#2 Vikings
#3 Giants
#4 Ravens
#5 Eagles

Before the season started you really think those rankings were extremely inaccurate?

C-Squared
10-19-2009, 11:55 AM
By the magazine I have here were the top #5 fantasy rankings for each position

Before the season started you really think those rankings were extremely inaccurate?

Ben Roethlisberger has more Super Bowl rings than 4 of the 5 QB's listed. I'd take reality titles over fantasy titles any day... and does anyone really think that as an actual, real-life player, that Rodgers is better than Big Ben?

Fantasy football is a game based off another game. Of course high stats tend to come from better players, but high stats do not guarantee you win games and titles. Dan Marino's career is the most perfect example there could be. I bet Marino would cut his stats in half to Aikman's level if that tradeoff came with three rings. Tom Brady also won all of his rings with Aikman-like numbers. You don't win games FOR having good stats.

Sick96stang
10-19-2009, 11:55 AM
Sorry I left that off. Schaub is ranked #3 overall and is the top QB ranked.

1. Adrian Peterson
2. Maurice Jones-Drew
3. Matt Schaub

Well look at Schaub's stats right now

1810 yards, 14 TD's, 5 INT's, 65.3 comp %

Right now he is one of the best QB's in the league.

DoubtErased
10-19-2009, 11:56 AM
All this complaining about fantasy stats and QB rating. Who cares about QB Rating as is.

I will take a good win/lost % anyday

samcanadian
10-19-2009, 11:56 AM
Actually, yahoo in the day probably ranked Johnson fairly high. Fantasy rankings are skewed a bit (sometimes a lot). Taking into account the fact that neither Phillip Rivers nor Kyle Orton have played yet this week, the following is a list of yahoo QB rankings (top 5).

3. Matt Schaub
4. Ben Roethlisberger
6. Tom Brady
8. Joe Flacco
9. Peyton Manning

Now, I don't think anyone would agree with the order here, but based on yahoo's ranking system (which, I have no idea how they come up with this) Matt Schaub is the best fantasy QB in the league after week 6.


They have ranking systems based on point values for each stat. That's why in Fantasy Baseball you'll have some scrub with an inflated ERA but 14 wins, and he's ahead of guys who are pitching the lights out to the tune of 3.5 ERAs, but only have 7 wins under their belts, etc.

If you look at total accumulated fantasy stats for each QB you've got listed, the Fantasy stats add up like this:

3. Matt Schaub-----------125.2
4. Ben Roethlisberger------121.78
6. Tom Brady-------------119.06
8. Joe Flacco-------------109.66
9. Peyton Manning--------109.50

So in Fantasy stats, where a throwing TD equals 6 points, Tom Brady could easily top the list next week with a shoddy game, as long as he throws a pair of majors, and if Schaub and Roethlisberger throw for less.

TD's pretty much dictate rankings in the Fantasy game. Doesn't matter if Schaub throws for 350 yards in a game...if he doesn't hit the endzone and someone else tosses a pair of 5 yard TDs in a game with a mediocre 150-200 yards throwing, he'll have more fantasy points than Schaub.

Greg1983
10-19-2009, 11:57 AM
He had significant playing time in 1998, breh... and once again, the QB rating system doesn't take what you just said into account either. Johnson qualified for placement among starting QB's in 98...

Rob Johnson atempted 107 passes in 1998 (and a combined 169 over the 3 years you brought up). Did he play well over that very limited time? Sure. But it's not worth considering.



Exactly, you're feeding into my point, breh. The QB rating system is an obtuse and dumbed-down way for people to gauge a QB...

Well common sense would dictate that one would be smart enough to distinguish between what's a reasonable sample size and what isn't. The same is true for any sport. The Jays had 4 relief pitchers with a 0.00 ERA after game 1 of this season, but I wasn't calling for them to make the Hall of Fame.

samcanadian
10-19-2009, 11:57 AM
All this complaining about fantasy stats and QB rating. Who cares about QB Rating as is.

I will take a good win/lost % anyday

While I don't like judging Win/Loss percentages for Pitchers in the MLB, I think it's a more accurate stat in Football, when the QB is often responsible for what the end result of a game is.

I wish coaches had fantasy stats.

DoubtErased
10-19-2009, 11:57 AM
Well look at Schaub's stats right now

1810 yards, 14 TD's, 5 INT's, 65.3 comp %

Right now he is one of the best QB's in the league.

Big Ben has better stats than that..

Sick96stang
10-19-2009, 11:57 AM
The magazines base projections on... projections. Flat stats don't take into account QB's throwing against prevent defenses in garbage time... a QB in that situation would be a better fantasy QB than a Troy Aikman type who would be done throwing by the 3rd quarter, instead handing the ball off to kill the clock...

Now which actually matters in the realm of pro football - fantasy success or reality success?

Well unless you're Tom Brady most QB's don't throw against teams in garbage time. I'm not saying stats are the be all end all because as you pointed out there are other factors to be considered but stats give you a very good overview of how a QB is doing.

Fantasy success (yards, TD's, INT's) matter in the realm of pro football.

samcanadian
10-19-2009, 11:58 AM
Rob Johnson atempted 107 passes in 1998 (and a combined 169 over the 3 years you brought up). Did he play well over that very limited time? Sure. But it's not worth considering.



Well common sense would dictate that one would be smart enough to distinguish between what's a reasonable sample size and what isn't. The same is true for any sport. The Jays had 4 relief pitchers with a 0.00 ERA after game 1 of this season, but I wasn't calling for them to make the Hall of Fame.

Especially when one of them was most likely BJ Ryan (sigh)

C-Squared
10-19-2009, 11:59 AM
All this complaining about fantasy stats and QB rating. Who cares about QB Rating as is.

I will take a good win/lost % anyday

Isolating any one stat (or more specifically, not looking at EVERYTHING) is glib, that's the point. Vince Young had a great win percentage at one time, but was far from elite. Shaun Hill has a great win % too.

You can't pick and choose aspects of a player to look at to get a whole judgment of their ability. You can't give fantasy points for heart, but you can't ignore it when trying to judge real-life rankings.

Sick96stang
10-19-2009, 12:00 PM
They have ranking systems based on point values for each stat. That's why in Fantasy Baseball you'll have some scrub with an inflated ERA but 14 wins, and he's ahead of guys who are pitching the lights out to the tune of 3.5 ERAs, but only have 7 wins under their belts, etc.

If you look at total accumulated fantasy stats for each QB you've got listed, the Fantasy stats add up like this:

3. Matt Schaub-----------125.2
4. Ben Roethlisberger------121.78
6. Tom Brady-------------119.06
8. Joe Flacco-------------109.66
9. Peyton Manning--------109.50

So in Fantasy stats, where a throwing TD equals 6 points, Tom Brady could easily top the list next week with a shoddy game, as long as he throws a pair of majors, and if Schaub and Roethlisberger throw for less.

TD's pretty much dictate rankings in the Fantasy game. Doesn't matter if Schaub throws for 350 yards in a game...if he doesn't hit the endzone and someone else tosses a pair of 5 yard TDs in a game with a mediocre 150-200 yards throwing, he'll have more fantasy points than Schaub.

TD's pretty much dictate reality football do they not?

Also there are different leagues which give differnet point values for each category. Many leagues only do 4 points for each TD. Most leagues do 1 point for 20 passing yards. So 350 yards would be 17.5 points so in a 6 point TD league would be equal to 3 TD's.

DoubtErased
10-19-2009, 12:01 PM
Isolating any one stat (or more specifically, not looking at EVERYTHING) is glib, that's the point. Vince Young had a great win percentage at one time, but was far from elite. Shaun Hill has a great win % too.

You can't pick and choose aspects of a player to look at to get a whole judgment of their ability. You can't give fantasy points for heart, but you can't ignore it when trying to judge real-life rankings.

come on lets be serious only three stats I care about in a QB

Win/Lose %
Playoff wins
Superbowl Appearances

samcanadian
10-19-2009, 12:01 PM
Big Ben has better stats than that..

Minus 4 throwing TDs. Heck, big Ben has two rushing TDs where Schaub has none, but Ben's still behind him.

Let's say Ben's two rushing TD's cancel out two of Schaub's throwing majors.

That means Ben's short two TDs of Schaub's total, but has 77 more throwing yards than Schaub.

Factor in one more interception than Schaub has, and it's a pretty accurate ranking of both QBs.

Ben's only about 3.5 points back of Schaub overall. One game where Schaub throws the exact same game as Ben, but Ben has one more TD and the roles will be reversed.

Bulldog0520
10-19-2009, 12:01 PM
While I don't like judging Win/Loss percentages for Pitchers in the MLB, I think it's a more accurate stat in Football, when the QB is often responsible for what the end result of a game is.

I wish coaches had fantasy stats.

Not really. Quarterbacks have to rely on their defense, which they have no control over. Flacco played more than well enough to win yesterday, but the defense let him down. How often does that happen in the NFL? All the time, just like pitchers who don't get any run support.

C-Squared
10-19-2009, 12:01 PM
Well unless you're Tom Brady most QB's don't throw against teams in garbage time. I'm not saying stats are the be all end all because as you pointed out there are other factors to be considered but stats give you a very good overview of how a QB is doing.

Fantasy success (yards, TD's, INT's) matter in the realm of pro football.

David Carr had pretty inflated numbers from garbage time games through the middle of the decade that he couldn't match in better offenses after he was released.

Fantasy success dictating pro football success is the same logic that makes the government call Ascorbic Acid "Vitamin C." Ascorbic Acid contains only a few parts of the whole-food Vitamin C complex. Its an incomplete assessment to call Ascorbic Acid "Vitamin C," but that's what happened...

Sick96stang
10-19-2009, 12:02 PM
Big Ben has better stats than that..

Well #1 I said one of the best QB's in the league #2 That's highly debatable.

Big Bens stats

1887 yards, 10 TD's, 6 INT's, 72.5 comp %

So Schaub has more TD's, less INT's, 70 less yards, and a worse comp %.

C-Squared
10-19-2009, 12:03 PM
come on lets be serious only three stats I care about in a QB

Win/Lose %
Playoff wins
Superbowl Appearances

Then Trent Dilfer's 2001 season must go down as one of the great seasons by a QB ever in your book.

Be rational y'all! You can't pick and choose the best skills of a player and have that judgment work across the board...

samcanadian
10-19-2009, 12:05 PM
TD's pretty much dictate reality football do they not?

Also there are different leagues which give differnet point values for each category. Many leagues only do 4 points for each TD. Most leagues do 1 point for 20 passing yards. So 350 yards would be 17.5 points so in a 6 point TD league would be equal to 3 TD's.

But the average 200-250 yards per game on top of the TD strikes would still give him the nod in Fantasy value. That's why I hate teams with marquee backs. The QB marches is it all the way down the field then gives it to Scamper McRunny who takes it 1yard to the house, eliminating that sweet 6 points I so desperately need .

You're right htough....too many leagues have different point totals. It's tough to compare apples to apples.

Greg1983
10-19-2009, 12:05 PM
David Carr had pretty inflated numbers from garbage time games through the middle of the decade that he couldn't match in better offenses after he was released.


David Carr had mediocre at best stats throughout his time in Houston. Why's that? Because he's a mediocre at best QB. Although your next statement is false as his best stats by far have come in New York.

Bulldog0520
10-19-2009, 12:06 PM
come on lets be serious only three stats I care about in a QB

Win/Lose %
Playoff wins
Superbowl Appearances

wtf....

So by your logic, Kyle Orton is a better QB than Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, etc.

Football is the ULTIMATE team sport, it's unfair to rank QB's on wins/losses.

C-Squared
10-19-2009, 12:07 PM
David Carr had mediocre at best stats throughout his time in Houston. Why's that? Because he's a mediocre at best QB. Although your next statement is false as his best stats by far have come in New York.

He has yet to top 1,000 yards anywhere since leaving Houston... oh wait, you're going by the QB rating based off NINE completions once again, showing what an asinine tool it is. I guess Carr magically became a great QB in NY because his rating went up over 40 points...

DoubtErased
10-19-2009, 12:08 PM
Then Trent Dilfer's 2001 season must go down as one of the great seasons by a QB ever in your book.

Be rational y'all! You can't pick and choose the best skills of a player and have that judgment work across the board...

How the hell did you come up with that? Since he only had one super bowl appearance

Sick96stang
10-19-2009, 12:08 PM
But the average 200-250 yards per game on top of the TD strikes would still give him the nod in Fantasy value. That's why I hate teams with marquee backs. The QB marches is it all the way down the field then gives it to Scamper McRunny who takes it 1yard to the house, eliminating that sweet 6 points I so desperately need .

You're right htough....too many leagues have different point totals. It's tough to compare apples to apples.

Scamper Mcrunny LOL. Yea that's why such high values are placed on running backs because of the scenario you just pointed out. Though my original point was really just that I don't believe fantasy rankings are too far off from reality.

Sick96stang
10-19-2009, 12:09 PM
wtf....

So by your logic, Kyle Orton is a better QB than Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, etc.

Football is the ULTIMATE team sport, it's unfair to rank QB's on wins/losses.

100% correct. It's completely illogical to try and rank an individual based on teams stats.

DoubtErased
10-19-2009, 12:09 PM
wtf....

So by your logic, Kyle Orton is a better QB than Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, etc.

Football is the ULTIMATE team sport, it's unfair to rank QB's on wins/losses.

I am talking about in terms of better overall career genius

Rivers has some of the best stats in the league lets say him, brady, manning and big ben retired TODAY....in what order do you think who will get into the HOF?

samcanadian
10-19-2009, 12:11 PM
Not really. Quarterbacks have to rely on their defense, which they have no control over. Flacco played more than well enough to win yesterday, but the defense let him down. How often does that happen in the NFL? All the time, just like pitchers who don't get any run support.

You're actually right. There are a lot of factors that play into a QB's decision, (such as whatshisname missing that fieldgoal), however baseball pitchers are kind of the poster boy for good players on bad teams.

Heck, even in hockey there are goalies who are phenomenal athletes, but suffer from awful goals-against and w/l %, even though their Save percentages are through the roof. (See: Roberto Luongo, Florida Panthers era)

Sick96stang
10-19-2009, 12:11 PM
I am talking about in terms of better overall career genius

So if a QB put up amazing stats throughout his career but the team he was on had a horrible defense his entire career thus they couldn't get beyond an 8-8 record you would put that QB below somebody who had mediocre stats but played on a team with a great D and were constantly winning due to a better balanced team?

C-Squared
10-19-2009, 12:11 PM
How the hell did you come up with that? Since he only had one super bowl appearance

So Steve Young only having on appearance bumps him off the list too then?

Trent meets all your requirements in 01 tho - "he" won a lot of games, never lost a playoff game, and got his ring! And then got cut... its as simple as this: you have to look at the COMPLETE PACKAGE to gauge a player.

Sick96stang
10-19-2009, 12:12 PM
So Steve Young only having on appearance bumps him off the list too then?

Trent meets all your requirements in 01 tho - "he" won a lot of games, never lost a playoff game, and got his ring! And then got cut... its as simple as this: you have to look at the COMPLETE PACKAGE to gauge a player.

Trent Dilfer > Dan Marino

samcanadian
10-19-2009, 12:14 PM
Scamper Mcrunny LOL. Yea that's why such high values are placed on running backs because of the scenario you just pointed out. Though my original point was really just that I don't believe fantasy rankings are too far off from reality.

I can't even remember what point I was trying to argue in the first place.

Everything aside, yes I love Fantasy Football and yes I think that Fantasy Rankings are a good judgement of a QB's skill, especially over a long period of time.

DoubtErased
10-19-2009, 12:14 PM
Trent Dilfer > Dan Marino

actually Dilfer was about 49-49 going into the 2000 season when he replaced that one dude.

Bulldog0520
10-19-2009, 12:15 PM
I am talking about in terms of better overall career genius

Rivers has some of the best stats in the league lets say him, brady, manning and big ben retired TODAY....in what order do you think who will get into the HOF?

Yeah, so Terry Bradshaw is a top 3 QB ever...

Your argument sucks and is getting taken apart. To win a football game it requires good play by all 22 guys (and special teams), not just the QB. Which is why it's a horrible basis for ranking them.

samcanadian
10-19-2009, 12:16 PM
100% correct. It's completely illogical to try and rank an individual based on teams stats.

That's why Halladay should have won the Cy Young last year over Cliff Lee. They had very close stats except Wins...but they forget to take into account that Halladay had to pitch against the Sox, Yanks and Rays 3x more than Lee did.

samcanadian
10-19-2009, 12:16 PM
Yeah, so Terry Bradshaw is a top 3 QB ever...

Your argument sucks and is getting taken apart. To win a football game it requires good play by all 22 guys (and special teams), not just the QB. Which is why it's a horrible basis for ranking them.

Although there are definitely some QB's you'd rather have on the field in a clutch situation, regardless of previous season stats.

DoubtErased
10-19-2009, 12:19 PM
Yeah, so Terry Bradshaw is a top 3 QB ever...

Your argument sucks and is getting taken apart. To win a football game it requires good play by all 22 guys (and special teams), not just the QB. Which is why it's a horrible basis for ranking them.

Look at the past 10 super bowl champions....Besides 2001 dont ever single winning QB have some great win/lose % and playoff wins? Exactly.

Greg1983
10-19-2009, 12:22 PM
Look at the past 10 super bowl champions....Besides 2001 dont ever single winning QB have some great win/lose % and playoff wins? Exactly.

There's a lurking variable explaining that correlation: they were all on good teams. Don't get me wrong: Brady, Manning and Roethlisberger are great quarterbacks. But if you put them on the Lions they'd have **** for wins. Would that make them worse quarterbacks in your mind? If Peyton got traded to the Lions tomorrow and proceeded to go 2-8 the rest of the year would that be because he magically turned into a ****ty QB?

Sick96stang
10-19-2009, 12:24 PM
There's a lurking variable explaining that correlation: they were all on good teams. Don't get me wrong: Brady, Manning and Roethlisberger are great quarterbacks. But if you put them on the Lions they'd have **** for wins. Would that make them worse quarterbacks in your mind? If Peyton got traded to the Lions tomorrow and proceeded to go 2-8 the rest of the year would that be because he magically turned into a ****ty QB?

Manning + Megatron = 8 wins alone :)

DoubtErased
10-19-2009, 12:24 PM
There's a lurking variable explaining that correlation: they were all on good teams. Don't get me wrong: Brady, Manning and Roethlisberger are great quarterbacks. But if you put them on the Lions they'd have **** for wins. Would that make them worse quarterbacks in your mind? If Peyton got traded to the Lions tomorrow and proceeded to go 2-8 the rest of the year would that be because he magically turned into a ****ty QB?

But yet tons of people are praising Brett Favre for turning around the Vikings...

samcanadian
10-19-2009, 12:24 PM
Remember Rich Gannon?

C-Squared
10-19-2009, 12:25 PM
There's a lurking variable explaining that correlation: they were all on good teams. Don't get me wrong: Brady, Manning and Roethlisberger are great quarterbacks. But if you put them on the Lions they'd have **** for wins. Would that make them worse quarterbacks in your mind? If Peyton got traded to the Lions tomorrow and proceeded to go 2-8 the rest of the year would that be because he magically turned into a ****ty QB?

Exactly, and for that matter, the Colts would bomb too.

The thing with QB's is that since they play the most important position in all of sports, they are credited with both the good and the bad. Neither is always justifiable, but its the way of the world (although nobody credits Trent Dilfer or Jeff Hostetler the same way they credit, say, Joe Montana, for their respective rings)

samcanadian
10-19-2009, 12:26 PM
But yet tons of people are praising Brett Favre for turning around the Vikings...

...I don't get it. What's your point?

C-Squared
10-19-2009, 12:26 PM
Remember Rich Gannon?

Rich Gannon was THE MAN in Oakland, one of my favorites!

Greg1983
10-19-2009, 12:26 PM
But yet tons of people are praising Brett Favre for turning around the Vikings...

The Vikings went 11-5 last year. They were already a good team. By improving their quarterback they improved moreso, but if he went to the Lions they would not be 6-0. That's a fact.

DoubtErased
10-19-2009, 12:27 PM
...I don't get it. What's your point?

a good QB can turn around a team. If Brady was seriously to go to the alones with Calvin J there thats a good 8-9 wins easily

samcanadian
10-19-2009, 12:30 PM
The Vikings went 11-5 last year. They were already a good team. By improving their quarterback they improved moreso, but if he went to the Lions they would not be 6-0. That's a fact.

Yeah, it didn't take much to take the Vikings from a contender to a favourite. Heck, if they could go 11-5 with a combination of Tarvaris Jackson and Gus Frerotte, I should THINK they're a good team.

samcanadian
10-19-2009, 12:31 PM
Rich Gannon was THE MAN in Oakland, one of my favorites!

I pulled for them so hard in the Superbowl. Was NOT a Warren Sapp fan.

Greg1983
10-19-2009, 12:32 PM
a good QB can turn around a team. If Brady was seriously to go to the alones with Calvin J there thats a good 8-9 wins easily

LOL at any single QB winning 8-9 games on the Lions. Brady's good, but not that good. Over the last 18 games the Lions have let in about 32 points per game. Brady's not going to turn that into a .500 team with no line, no running game, and no number 2 receiver.

Sick96stang
10-19-2009, 12:32 PM
a good QB can turn around a team. If Brady was seriously to go to the alones with Calvin J there thats a good 8-9 wins easily

I agree to a certain degree but the I can count the amount of QB's who can do that on 1 hand.

DoubtErased
10-19-2009, 12:38 PM
I pulled for them so hard in the Superbowl. Was NOT a Warren Sapp fan.

Everytime I see Gannons name or Woodson "tuck rule" comes into mind. I was pulling for them so hard in that game especially since I hated the Bucs since the 97 opener vs 49ers....dirty bastards

VernonWellsFargo
02-06-2013, 09:08 AM
Well, looks like I was on to something

thegenerel
02-06-2013, 09:21 AM
Well, looks like I was on to something

only if you have yet to reveal that Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Eli, Peyton, and Roethlisberger are about to die.

Bucher15
02-06-2013, 09:37 AM
only if you have yet to reveal that Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Eli, Peyton, and Roethlisberger are about to die.

What have you done for me lately? Playoff wins the past 2 years:

Flacco: 5
Eli: 4
Brady: 3
Rodgers: 1
Brees: 1
Pey Pey: 0
Roethlisberger: 0