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View Full Version : Karl Malone vs John Stockton



CobyWan
09-11-2009, 04:17 PM
http://organicfunny.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/malone.jpg


vs


http://alltalksports.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/john-stockton-keeping-it-real.jpg





Many people regard Karl Malone as one of, if not the best PF's of all time. And I think most people would agree John Stockton is one of the best PG's of all time. My question is who do you think is the better player and which player helped the other player more reach their greatness.


I personally think John Stockton is still underrated. He's still the all-time leader in assists and steals. And certainly a large percentage of Karl Malone's points came off of passes from John Stockton.

KingCanuck
09-11-2009, 04:21 PM
Its a tough question, cause a lot of what they did relied on each other. They were the best pick n' roll duo of all time, thus, this was a big part of their offense.

Stockton is very underrated, which is weird when he is a first ballot HOF.

Both are great players and its really tough to answer the question of who is better.

BNR
09-11-2009, 04:21 PM
I'll take Stockton and Duncan is the greatest PF of all time

CobyWan
09-11-2009, 04:23 PM
Is anyone watching Stockton giving his HOF speech?




Ballin'


http://soonlee.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/tuxedo.jpg

lacey23
09-11-2009, 04:35 PM
Malone is by a pretty decent margin imo.

Malone has 2 MVP's. Stockton has zero.

Malone finisheed ahead of Stockton ever year in MVP voting, and iirc Stockton was never (or maybe once) in the top 10 of MVP votes.

Malone was on the NBA 1st team 11 times. Stockton was on it twice.

Stockton was nice, but didn't impact the game like Malone did.

.Achilles.
09-11-2009, 04:37 PM
If stockton where Malone they have came back on the same time then i dont really Duncan has both i think.

gswarrior510
09-11-2009, 04:39 PM
Malone obviously

ok, semi-obviously

CobyWan
09-11-2009, 04:41 PM
If stockton where Malone they have came back on the same time then i dont really Duncan has both i think.


Wut?

SUSprinter
09-11-2009, 04:43 PM
If stockton where Malone they have came back on the same time then i dont really Duncan has both i think.

I understand.














































............NOT

Excellentswag
09-11-2009, 04:43 PM
This is kind of a dumb quesiton since both careers intertwined completely and both were very dependent on the other.

CobyWan
09-11-2009, 04:46 PM
This is kind of a dumb quesiton since both careers intertwined completely and both were very dependent on the other.


I also asked which player helped the other player more. I think a lot of Malone's points were off of pick and rolls where he was wide open under the basket. I also believe John Stockton could have ran that offense with a serviceable big man and put up crazy assist numbers and made the big man much better.

Garnett
09-11-2009, 05:23 PM
Stockton is the must unheralded player of thepast 30 years. He was a quintessential PG. Malone and Stockton were basically equals. Stockton turned down ALL media attention, hype and praise. He wanted and chose to fly well under the radar. Heck, when watching the 97 or 98 finals (can't remember which year) they showed the players arriving and Stockton was the only player wearing dockers, and worn polo shirt (tucked in) in a used Ford Explorer that looked like it was any average families. He escorted his wife and kids out before going to the locker room. He had made probably $50 million to this point in time and he didn't show a dime of it.

I can't pick who was better overall and I've loved basketball and watched/studied/memorized stats for this game since the late 80's.

GPx
09-11-2009, 05:25 PM
If stockton where Malone they have came back on the same time then i dont really Duncan has both i think.

lololol wut

Deadly Dingo
09-11-2009, 05:31 PM
Back then it was a league of big men, PFs and C's took most of the glory, there were the few exceptions, namely MJ, Isiah. But if they were both starting their careers 3-4 years ago, then i think Stockton would get increasing credit, mvp votes etc (ala Steve Nash) and Stockton could do everything Nash could plus Defend.

I say its pretty damn even, they both helped eachother immensely and both being very durable players helped them as well. If it wasnt for that rascally MJ, they would have 1 or 2 rings.

Nodice123
09-11-2009, 06:40 PM
Malone is by a pretty decent margin imo.

Malone has 2 MVP's. Stockton has zero.

Malone finisheed ahead of Stockton ever year in MVP voting, and iirc Stockton was never (or maybe once) in the top 10 of MVP votes.

Malone was on the NBA 1st team 11 times. Stockton was on it twice.

Stockton was nice, but didn't impact the game like Malone did.

I'm not saying you are wrong but Stockton is a large part of the reason why Malone got those MVPs and NBA 1st teams. It's been said before in other threads but Stockton was more or a pure PG. He was about assists and steals.... PPG is a sexier stat than assists and steals.

ApatoJay
09-11-2009, 08:11 PM
I'm not saying you are wrong but Stockton is a large part of the reason why Malone got those MVPs and NBA 1st teams. It's been said before in other threads but Stockton was more or a pure PG. He was about assists and steals.... PPG is a sexier stat than assists and steals.
How was he a large part of the reason? All he had to was give amazing sex machine giant buff monster Malone the ball and hed just run bitches over, throw elbows in their ****ing face or do a fallaway jumper that hit everytime.

Yah John Stocktons passes were nice, but Karl Malone in his prime woulda been fine and dandy with any decent PG passin him the rock.

Coconut187
09-11-2009, 08:19 PM
in b4 Fivas

AJbuilder
09-11-2009, 08:47 PM
Stockton was like a less aggressive version of Mark Price but a better finesse player. He was also sort of underpaid compared to what the big guys were making then.

Geometrics
09-11-2009, 08:54 PM
Stockton was also known as a dirty defender and Malone was a bruiser to

3MGS6
09-11-2009, 09:07 PM
If stockton where Malone they have came back on the same time then i dont really Duncan has both i think.

English might be your Achilles heel.

effen5
09-11-2009, 09:11 PM
How was he a large part of the reason? All he had to was give amazing sex machine giant buff monster Malone the ball and hed just run bitches over, throw elbows in their ****ing face or do a fallaway jumper that hit everytime.

Yah John Stocktons passes were nice, but Karl Malone in his prime woulda been fine and dandy with any decent PG passin him the rock.

Disagreed, Stockton "perfected" the pick and roll, they complimented each other perfectly.


Also as for Stockton being underrated, I think the whole Utah Jazz organization is underrated starting with Sloan. Sloan is just ridiculous, the way his team plays even when Stockton and Malone retired, they play the same with Derron and Boozer. Stockton was never flashy and might be one of the main reasons why he's so underrated but when your 30th in all time scoring and 1st in steals and 1st in assists....that is just unbelievable.

lacey23
09-11-2009, 09:20 PM
If anything I think Stockton is overated. Very nice player, and a top 4-5 PG of all time due to longevity. But if we're comparing peaks, there's prob 7-8 PG's I'de take over him. I'de only take 1-2 PF's over Malone. And I really don't think Malone needed Stockton, although they did work well together.

effen5
09-11-2009, 09:23 PM
If anything I think Stockton is overated. Very nice player, and a top 4-5 PG of all time due to longevity. But if we're comparing peaks, there's prob 7-8 PG's I'de take over him. I'de only take 1-2 PF's over Malone. And I really don't think Malone needed Stockton, although they did work well together.

Lead NBA history in Steals
Lead NBA history in assists
30th in NBA history in scoring

Missed 22 games in 19 years?

Overrated? I dont think so.


BTW, Craziest stat of them all, WENT TO THE PLAYOFFS EVERY YEAR OF HIS CAREER.

CobyWan
09-11-2009, 09:25 PM
Lead NBA history in Steals
Lead NBA history in assists
30th in NBA history in scoring

Missed 22 games in 19 years?

Overrated? I dont think so.


BTW, Craziest stat of them all, WENT TO THE PLAYOFFS EVERY YEAR OF HIS CAREER.


x 2

The Shoeless Wonder
09-11-2009, 09:26 PM
NBA Jam. that is all.

HE'S ON FIRE!

effen5
09-11-2009, 09:26 PM
He would also be a two time champion if it weren't for a MJ, actually, a lot of HOF'ers would have a ring if it werent for MJ.

lacey23
09-11-2009, 09:28 PM
Lead NBA history in Steals
Lead NBA history in assists
30th in NBA history in scoring

Missed 22 games in 19 years?

Overrated? I dont think so.


BTW, Craziest stat of them all, WENT TO THE PLAYOFFS EVERY YEAR OF HIS CAREER.

longevity like I said. But as a peak he doesn't belong in the conversation w/ Malone imo. Or overall.

I don't know if you can really credit Stockton too much w/ not missing the playoffs. Sloan's only missed a coule years of the PO's I beleive since coaching the Jazz. Plus they had some pretty good players. I mean it's not like he was ever stuck in a situation like Durant or anything.

Also since the comparison is against Malone it doesn;t really matter much since he himself also has never missed the PO's.

effen5
09-11-2009, 09:30 PM
longevity like I said. But as a peak he doesn't belong in the conversation w/ Malone imo. Or overall.

I don't know if you can really credit Stockton too much w/ not missing the playoffs. Sloan's only missed the PO's 1 year I beleive since coaching the Jazz. Plus they had some pretty good players. I mean it's not like he was ever stuck in a situation like Durant or anything.

How?
Give me a good reason why he wouldn't be in the same conversation with Malone?

lacey23
09-11-2009, 09:35 PM
How?
Give me a good reason why he wouldn't be in the same conversation with Malone?

Becuase Malone was a better player, and this is pretty common knowledge. If he was better then Malone don't you think people would have voted him higher in the MVP votings at least 1 year?


Malone won 2 MVP's, and was usually near the top of the rankings. Iirc Stockton was never in the top10 of the MVP voting. That's a pretty large gap. Like the difference from Kobe to Bosh.

effen5
09-11-2009, 09:41 PM
Becuase Malone was a better player, and this is pretty common knowledge. If he was better then Malone don't you think people would have voted him higher in the MVP votings at least 1 year?


Malone won 2 MVP's, and was usually near the top of the rankings. Iirc Stockton was never in the top10 of the MVP voting. That's a pretty large gap. Like the difference from Kobe to Bosh.

Honestly there is no way to tell. IMO, Stockton and Malone were a perfect for each other and Stockton made it easier to score for Malone, kind of like CP3 did with Tyson Chandler.

I would love to see how many assists Stockton had just to Malone...

lacey23
09-11-2009, 09:43 PM
What do you mean there's no way to tell? It's pretty commonly accepted knowledge.

Are you comparing Tyson Chandler to Malone?

captain_marvel
09-11-2009, 09:44 PM
Becuase Malone was a better player, and this is pretty common knowledge. If he was better then Malone don't you think people would have voted him higher in the MVP votings at least 1 year?


Malone won 2 MVP's, and was usually near the top of the rankings. Iirc Stockton was never in the top10 of the MVP voting. That's a pretty large gap. Like the difference from Kobe to Bosh.

This.

lol @ Stockton winning in this poll.

I could name 5 POINT GUARDS ALONE ATLEAST that were/are better than Stockton. No disrespect to him he was a great player and yeah he is all time assist/steal leader but he played many more years than Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson etc.

Karl Malone is one of the best players of all-time.

effen5
09-11-2009, 09:46 PM
What do you mean there's no way to tell? It's pretty commonly accepted knowledge.

Are you comparing Tyson Chandler to Malone?

There is no way to tell because they played two different positions in which they complimented each other perfectly and NO its not common knowledge lulz.

Without Stockton, Malone would not have that many points.

Without Malone, Stockton would not have that many assists.

Malone is an offensive machine

Stockton was the general on the floor

effen5
09-11-2009, 09:46 PM
This.

lol @ Stockton winning in this poll.

I could name 5 POINT GUARDS ALONE ATLEAST that were/are better than Stockton. No disrespect to him he was a great player and yeah he is all time assist/steal leader but he played many more years than Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson etc.

Karl Malone is one of the best players of all-time.

Magic
Oscar
Isaiah
Cousy/Stockton

Madsen89
09-11-2009, 09:47 PM
A challenger appears...


http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2004/scorecard/10/04/truth.rumors1/p1_pippen_getty.jpg

CobyWan
09-11-2009, 09:47 PM
Becuase Malone was a better player, and this is pretty common knowledge. If he was better then Malone don't you think people would have voted him higher in the MVP votings at least 1 year?


Malone won 2 MVP's, and was usually near the top of the rankings. Iirc Stockton was never in the top10 of the MVP voting. That's a pretty large gap. Like the difference from Kobe to Bosh.


I think he was looking for reasons he was a better player besides award votings. Shaq only won 1 MVP and is one of the most dominant forces ever in the NBA.

Trade Karl Malone with Charles Barkley and I would guess he wouldn't have put up such ridiculous scoring numbers. He didn't have an all-time point guard delivering him the ball in perfect position to score.

captain_marvel
09-11-2009, 09:48 PM
How?
Give me a good reason why he wouldn't be in the same conversation with Malone?

Because hes not as good as Malone. You ever think of that?

lacey23
09-11-2009, 10:02 PM
There is no way to tell because they played two different positions in which they complimented each other perfectly and NO its not common knowledge lulz.

Without Stockton, Malone would not have that many points.

Without Malone, Stockton would not have that many assists.

Malone is an offensive machine

Stockton was the general on the floor

Yes it is common knowledge. Take a look at any players rankings of all time. There's a significant gap between the 2 players.

And how is there no way to tell because they played different positions? Can I not say Kobe is better then Gasol?

captain_marvel
09-11-2009, 10:05 PM
Magic
Oscar
Isaiah
Cousy/Stockton

Yes and at only 24 Chris Paul has had two seasons already better than any season Stockton has ever had and I can't even stand the guy and liked Stockton.

Remember we are arguing if Stockton was better than Malone not just if Stockton was legit. Stockton was definately legit no question but he wasn't as good as Malone.

Malone has as many NBA all first team selections alone as John Stockton has total all-star selections.

Without John Stockton Malone would have still been great. Not as great-- because Stockton was big to that team but still great.

lacey23
09-11-2009, 10:08 PM
I think he was looking for reasons he was a better player besides award votings. Shaq only won 1 MVP and is one of the most dominant forces ever in the NBA.

Trade Karl Malone with Charles Barkley and I would guess he wouldn't have put up such ridiculous scoring numbers. He didn't have an all-time point guard delivering him the ball in perfect position to score.

What better way is there to show 1 is better than a big group of people in and around the NBA organization that watched a ton of their games, voting for 1 over the other by a solid margin every single year?

Yes there's some problems w/ MVP rankings like team record contributing to things when comparing players form other teams. But they played on the exact same team w/ the exact same record so things should be equal between them in that regard.

CobyWan
09-11-2009, 10:10 PM
Yes and at only 24 Chris Paul has had two seasons already better than any season Stockton has ever had and I can't even stand the guy and liked Stockton.



In all fairness CP3 is allowed to play more free and uptempo. While John Stockton ran Jerry Sloan's precise methodical offense.

BSBrown
09-11-2009, 10:13 PM
Stockton is my boy. He has been ballin for decades.. So damn old and still can drain those baskets.

_Translucency
09-11-2009, 10:22 PM
I also asked which player helped the other player more. I think a lot of Malone's points were off of pick and rolls where he was wide open under the basket. I also believe John Stockton could have ran that offense with a serviceable big man and put up crazy assist numbers and made the big man much better.

Conversely, a large majority of Stockton's assists can be attributed to the same thing.

effen5
09-11-2009, 10:25 PM
Conversely, a large majority of Stockton's assists can be attributed to the same thing.

which is why I said you can't tell which player was better.

/thread

effen5
09-11-2009, 10:30 PM
Yes and at only 24 Chris Paul has had two seasons already better than any season Stockton has ever had and I can't even stand the guy and liked Stockton.

Remember we are arguing if Stockton was better than Malone not just if Stockton was legit. Stockton was definately legit no question but he wasn't as good as Malone.

Malone has as many NBA all first team selections alone as John Stockton has total all-star selections.

Without John Stockton Malone would have still been great. Not as great-- because Stockton was big to that team but still great.

Are you saying CP3 had better seasons because he scored more?

Difference between CP3 and Stockton, would much rather have williams.

znAA4mLU0II
gJcFa2oA5IU

I have no respect for CP3.

captain_marvel
09-11-2009, 10:36 PM
In all fairness CP3 is allowed to play more free and uptempo. While John Stockton ran Jerry Sloan's precise methodical offense.

I agree with that to a certain extent but still - Paul can do evertything Stockton did. Only advantage I could give stockton is outside shooting but Paul more than makes up for that with more atheleticism and the ability to actually create for HIMSELF as well.

We can only go by what players have actually done not what might have happened in a different system etc. We could counter argue that Paul would have had even more amazing stats if he had a Karl Malone on his team like Stockton or that Jordan wouldnt have been as good if Sloan coached him (hypothetically).

captain_marvel
09-11-2009, 10:41 PM
Are you saying CP3 had better seasons because he scored more?

Difference between CP3 and Stockton, would much rather have williams.

znAA4mII[/youe]
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I have no respect for CP3.
No, thats not the only reason why.

I don't like Paul either but this thread and my argument wasn't about if you personally liked Paul as a person or not.

poppa_boner
09-11-2009, 11:34 PM
as much as i hated karl malone growing up, its gotta be him