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JAGERBOY
08-26-2009, 07:31 AM
It seems when the gay marriage topic comes up, most atheists are on the side that agrees it should be allowed. Is this because all atheists are closet homosexuals? I think there is a correlation here.

ColtsForTheWin
08-26-2009, 07:37 AM
Atheists have more compassion for their fellow human being and believe in innate human rights of others. Christians are generally self-centered and hypocritical and only donate money to make themselves feel better about themselves and then crucify those different from them by using age-old stories. Atheists, on the other hand, like to practice tolerance and empathy and "understand the enemy" rather than dehumanize others to make the self feel special.

That is why atheists care more about gay marriage. They see an injustice and are not sheep; Christians generally would fall right into place with cultist regimes like narrow-minded sheep. Atheists push for change by thinking for themselves and realize that when something is unjust, the right thing to do is to fight for justice.

Ironically, it's more likely that Atheists go to the real Heaven for doing such good deeds for their fellow man.





This post through Christian eyes: Yah all atheists r gay cuz god put them on erth to test us. god bless!

sothrowedmex
08-26-2009, 07:42 AM
It seems when the gay marriage topic comes up, most atheists are onWhy does it seem most atheists support gay marriage? Are atheists gay the side that agrees it should be allowed. Is this because all atheists are closet homosexuals? I think there is a correlation here.

No, its just because they are against everything the Bible is against. If the Bible said blue was bad, they would be all for blue lol

bird72
08-26-2009, 07:43 AM
Atheists have more compassion for their fellow human being and believe in innate human rights of others. Christians are generally self-centered and hypocritical and only donate money to make themselves feel better about themselves and then crucify those different from them by using age-old stories. Atheists, on the other hand, like to practice tolerance and empathy and "understand the enemy" rather than dehumanize others to make the self feel special.

That is why atheists care more about gay marriage. They see an injustice and are not sheep; Christians generally would fall right into place with cultist regimes like narrow-minded sheep. Atheists push for change by thinking for themselves and realize that when something is unjust, the right thing to do is to fight for justice.

Ironically, it's more likely that Atheists go to the real Heaven for doing such good deeds for their fellow man.





This post through Christian eyes: Yah all atheists r gay cuz god put them on erth to test us. god bless!

No. Some atheist, for some reason, are atheist precisely, because something in their live don't square with some religion values, so, they decide to believe that God, doesn't exist.
So every cause that goes against does values, is a cause for an atheist. My humble opinion.:)

jf1
08-26-2009, 07:46 AM
LOL!
because atheists think that leviticus, the homophobic self-proclaimed 'voice of god', was a big phony.
we make up our own minds and dont let ancient hebrew charlatans tell us how to live!
:rolleyes:

_TG_
08-26-2009, 07:48 AM
No, its just because they are against everything the Bible is against. If the Bible said blue was bad, they would be all for blue lol

No, you're distorting atheist's views to make yourself look good. you're failing pretty good i must say.

IraHays
08-26-2009, 07:48 AM
It seems when the gay marriage topic comes up, most atheists are onWhy does it seem most atheists support gay marriage? Are atheists gay the side that agrees it should be allowed. Is this because all atheists are closet homosexuals? I think there is a correlation here.

So the "athiest" thread that is stickied is really the r/p version of the "new gay thread"?

hmmmm.......

jf1
08-26-2009, 07:51 AM
because god is upset with atheists so he turned them gay?

Beeewbs
08-26-2009, 07:52 AM
It seems when the gay marriage topic comes up, most atheists are onWhy does it seem most atheists support gay marriage? Are atheists gay the side that agrees it should be allowed. Is this because all atheists are closet homosexuals? I think there is a correlation here.



U hittin on me, atheist?

bird72
08-26-2009, 07:57 AM
LOL!
because atheists think that leviticus, the homophobic self-proclaimed 'voice of god', was a big phony.
we make up our own minds and dont let ancient hebrew charlatans tell us how to live!
:rolleyes:


because god is upset with atheists so he turned them gay?

are you gay?

roygbp
08-26-2009, 08:00 AM
Atheists have more compassion for their fellow human being and believe in innate human rights of others. Christians are generally self-centered and hypocritical and only donate money to make themselves feel better about themselves and then crucify those different from them by using age-old stories. Atheists, on the other hand, like to practice tolerance and empathy and "understand the enemy" rather than dehumanize others to make the self feel special.

That is why atheists care more about gay marriage. They see an injustice and are not sheep; Christians generally would fall right into place with cultist regimes like narrow-minded sheep. Atheists push for change by thinking for themselves and realize that when something is unjust, the right thing to do is to fight for justice.

Ironically, it's more likely that Atheists go to the real Heaven for doing such good deeds for their fellow man.





This post through Christian eyes: Yah all atheists r gay cuz god put them on erth to test us. god bless!

No, its just because they are against everything the Bible is against. If the Bible said blue was bad, they would be all for blue lol
Blanket statements from both sides...
itd be more persuasive if you guys fought fair

jf1
08-26-2009, 08:06 AM
are you gay?

ask my wife

Death Strike
08-26-2009, 08:07 AM
It seems when the gay marriage topic comes up, most atheists are on the side that agrees it should be allowed. Is this because all atheists are closet homosexuals? I think there is a correlation here.

when you look at the world logically w/o personal bias or bs, you'll see a lot of things differently

One More Time
08-26-2009, 08:08 AM
Christians are generally self-centered and hypocritical and only donate money to make themselves feel better about themselves and then crucify those different from them by using age-old stories.

Christians generally would fall right into place with cultist regimes like narrow-minded sheep.



Atheists, on the other hand, like to practice tolerance and empathy and "understand the enemy" rather than dehumanize others to make the self feel special.


I see what you did there..lulz

Beeewbs
08-26-2009, 08:08 AM
No, its just because they are against everything the Bible is against. If the Bible said blue was bad, they would be all for blue lol

You don't actually know any atheists, do you?

bird72
08-26-2009, 08:09 AM
u interested?

no, i aways be natural, green, go green, natural, be natural, is be in...........:)

bird72
08-26-2009, 08:11 AM
ask my wife

i only ask because you inlcude yourself into your argument, sorry is i wither you a petal...:D

jimbob007
08-26-2009, 08:19 AM
I am an atheist who believes marriage should only be between a man & a woman, although I think marriage is generally an outdated concept anyway.

Beeewbs
08-26-2009, 08:26 AM
I am an atheist who believes marriage should only be between a man & a woman, although I think marriage is generally an outdated concept anyway.


Why?

pikeamus
08-26-2009, 08:27 AM
I am an atheist who believes marriage should only be between a man & a woman, although I think marriage is generally an outdated concept anyway.


Why?



It's rather hard to imagine what secular justification there is for holding that idea...

jimbob007
08-26-2009, 08:30 AM
I think children should ideally have both a mother & father figure, really it is probably just the fact that is what I grew up with- 2 penises or 2 vaginas cannot create life so they have to adopt someone elses kid or go for IVF- which I am very much against not only for this, but for straight couples deciding what sex of child they want or designer babies, or old people deciding to have kids in their 60's etc.

bird72
08-26-2009, 08:37 AM
I think children should ideally have both a mother & father figure, really it is probably just the fact that is what I grew up with- 2 penises or 2 vaginas cannot create life so they have to adopt someone elses kid or go for IVF- which I am very much against not only for this, but for straight couples deciding what sex of child they want or designer babies, or old people deciding to have kids in their 60's etc.

x 100, i have the same opinion, that not have nothing to do with my Christian belief.

JAGERBOY
08-26-2009, 08:38 AM
It's rather hard to imagine what secular justification there is for holding that idea...

I've never seen a valid secular argument against gay marriage.

JAGERBOY
08-26-2009, 08:39 AM
I think children should ideally have both a mother & father figure, really it is probably just the fact that is what I grew up with- 2 penises or 2 vaginas cannot create life so they have to adopt someone elses kid or go for IVF- which I am very much against not only for this, but for straight couples deciding what sex of child they want or designer babies, or old people deciding to have kids in their 60's etc.

No one asked you about child raising. This is an invalid response.

jimbob007
08-26-2009, 08:41 AM
Children are usually a part of marriage, but for me marriage is a bond between a man & a woman.

JAGERBOY
08-26-2009, 08:52 AM
but for me marriage is a bond between a man & a woman.

And the question is, why?

bird72
08-26-2009, 09:01 AM
And the question is, why?

why not? girl&boy, men&woman, what's of that not make sense for you?

JAGERBOY
08-26-2009, 09:02 AM
why not? girl&boy, men&woman, what's of that not make sense for you?

Why not? girl&girl, men&men, what's of that not make sense for you?

WilyCoder
08-26-2009, 09:05 AM
Atheists supoprt gay marriage because the ONLY arguments to ban gay marriage are religious ones.

shark2492
08-26-2009, 09:09 AM
And the question is, why?

Ever try to plug in the wrong end of an extension cord?
Lmao, you'll get it.

Human Rocket
08-26-2009, 09:10 AM
It seems when the gay marriage topic comes up, most atheists are on the side that agrees it should be allowed. Is this because all atheists are closet homosexuals? I think there is a correlation here.

Obvious troll is obvious...

Liver_Kick
08-26-2009, 09:17 AM
Atheists are not bound by religious dogma, that would be the reason you will find more willing to accept or
Or even support gay marriage.

My question to christians is how do you think Jesus would treat gay people considering his treatment of other "sinners" such as prostitutes? I mean let he who be without sin cast the first stone right?

shark2492
08-26-2009, 09:19 AM
Atheists have more compassion for their fellow human being and believe in innate human rights of others. Christians are generally self-centered and hypocritical and only donate money to make themselves feel better about themselves and then crucify those different from them by using age-old stories. Atheists, on the other hand, like to practice tolerance and empathy and "understand the enemy" rather than dehumanize others to make the self feel special.

That is why atheists care more about gay marriage. They see an injustice and are not sheep; Christians generally would fall right into place with cultist regimes like narrow-minded sheep. Atheists push for change by thinking for themselves and realize that when something is unjust, the right thing to do is to fight for justice.

Ironically, it's more likely that Atheists go to the real Heaven for doing such good deeds for their fellow man.





This post through Christian eyes: Yah all atheists r gay cuz god put them on erth to test us. god bless!

Mightve been more effective convo starter if it wasnt such an attack against athiests being queer bud. juss sayin.

Now:

Wow. Im christian, but i:
*am far from self centered
*i love hearing different peoples views and perspectives. not hypocrtical
*never "crucified" anyone for not sharing my beliefs
*never dehumanize people to try to make myself appear correct
*never been described as anything close to narrow minded (see perspectives ^)
*i fight for justice whenever i see an injustice being comitted, regaurdless of whether I share beliefs with the person being harassed or not

According to this thread, im doing christianity wrong...
?
Lol, this is putting christians into a way confined box. Keep it fair

rainy_daze
08-26-2009, 10:58 AM
I don't know if most atheists are gay...hehe...but most gays are atheists. Atheism and homosexuality have much in common. Many atheists come from families that practice religion, so like gays, they too deal with having to 'come out of the closet'...this is probably why they strongly identify with gay people.
There aren't that many atheists though, and there are even fewer gays, so it's no surprise that they'd have much support for each other.

jake24
08-26-2009, 11:19 AM
Most atheist are closet homosexuals.... LOL, J/K but its a true that alot of homosexuals are atheist.

mntbikedude
08-26-2009, 12:02 PM
I don't know if most atheists are gay...hehe...but most gays are atheists. Atheism and homosexuality have much in common. Many atheists come from families that practice religion, so like gays, they too deal with having to 'come out of the closet'...this is probably why they strongly identify with gay people.
There aren't that many atheists though, and there are even fewer gays, so it's no surprise that they'd have much support for each other.

That is an interesting incite on that. After I came out to my son, he said to me. I'm atheist at the time I just kind of brushed it off because I already kind of knew that is how he felt. However after thinking about it I realized that telling me that was big deal and I sat down with him and let him tell me his story.

VAPlowhorse
08-26-2009, 12:05 PM
Because atheists are not being politically manipulated by church leaders using scare tactics to trick people. Theists will be all for gay marriage and deny ever being against it, just like equality for blacks, in a few decades. I wouldn't be surprised if a higher proportion of gay people are atheist than straight, but I wouldn't be crazy about a God who thinks I am evil but genocide is all good if I was gay.

mntbikedude
08-26-2009, 12:10 PM
I think that for most people christianity can bring much to someone's life. For a gay person being christian is just plain self-abuse. Religion crushes the self-esteem of a gay person and gives them false promises of being able to change and makes them think they need to change (even worse). I believe that christianities attack on gays is one of the great evils of our time.

It is a holocaust of sorts a holocaust to the heart and soul of a person. As a gay man I still believe in God but not the God that most religions are selling. I believe that most religions including my own will destroy the person that tries to adhere to the faith. In most cases they will be required to live a double life.

Many encouraged to live most of their life as a lie. Today most religion makes me actually sick when I hear them starting to spout their bull**** and label it love.

DaCougarMech
08-26-2009, 12:11 PM
perhaps we're just not as nosy...

jimbob007
08-26-2009, 12:25 PM
No problem if that is their leaning, just that I do think marriage is something between a man & a woman- it is down to personal belief & mine is that it should be between men & women & that even then most marriages are a waste of time & money.



Why not? girl&girl, men&men, what's of that not make sense for you?

TheCon
08-26-2009, 12:37 PM
It's because Atheists view the term "marriage" as a purely secular term whereas theists generally recognize the religious roots of the term. I think most people are for "equal rights," Atheists just don't give a sh*t what those rights are called while theists are offended by the idea of gays being "Married."

JAGERBOY
08-26-2009, 12:40 PM
No problem if that is their leaning, just that I do think marriage is something between a man & a woman- it is down to personal belief & mine is that it should be between men & women & that even then most marriages are a waste of time & money.

The quote you posted was to someone else.

That said, I understand its your opinion, and you have a right to that. Generally however, you should have good reasons for your opinions. Other than the child raising point, I still haven't seen you bring up a good, secular reason. And the reason I reject your child raising point, is because one does not need to have a child to be married.

Do you think that gays should be able to have sexual relationships at all?

jimbob007
08-26-2009, 12:48 PM
Yes I have no problems with gays & lesbans being together.

JAGERBOY
08-26-2009, 01:03 PM
Yes I have no problems with gays & lesbans being together.

So you have no problems with gays/lesbians being together.

You think the entire institution of marriage is a outdated and a waste of time/money.


Why even make the distinction between gay and straight marriage at that point? If marriage as a whole is outdated and a waste of time, and you are ok with gays/lesbians being together....whats the problem?

x_aDrenaLine_x
08-26-2009, 01:22 PM
Atheists are not bound by religious dogma, that would be the reason you will find more willing to accept or
Or even support gay marriage.

My question to christians is how do you think Jesus would treat gay people considering his treatment of other "sinners" such as prostitutes? I mean let he who be without sin cast the first stone right?

He would tell them to repent of their sins, not to hate them for it. Homosexuality is just as bad a sin as adultery, and many heterosexuals do the latter. One is not more bad of a sin than the other. I just believe homosexuality to be unnatural and a byproduct of a corrupted sexual mind, just like sodomy, adultery, or any form of sexual immorality. Some Christians today tend to cast the first stone when they neglect to look upon their own sexual sins.

Matthew 5:28 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

GrokTheCube
08-26-2009, 01:32 PM
It seems when the gay marriage topic comes up, most atheists are on the side that agrees it should be allowed. Is this because all atheists are closet homosexuals? I think there is a correlation here.

No, but based on studies most homophones are closet homos. Just food for thought.

Seriously though, it's because there is no reason to consider homosexuality immoral if you don't believe the superstitions about it.

SDMuscleBuddy
08-26-2009, 01:37 PM
I think children should ideally have both a mother & father figure, really it is probably just the fact that is what I grew up with- 2 penises or 2 vaginas cannot create life so they have to adopt someone elses kid or go for IVF- which I am very much against not only for this, but for straight couples deciding what sex of child they want or designer babies, or old people deciding to have kids in their 60's etc.

You sure have a lot of ideas about how others should live their lives. Are you sure you're an atheist?

Please note that marriage laws have nothing to do with sex, and little to do with children. Laws that protect children are the same whether their parents are married or not.

As far as the OP goes, I don't agree that it is mostly atheists, or even largely atheists, who support gay marriage. In fact I'd say the battle for gay marriage started in church. There is no doubt that marriage has a religious side to it, though the law doesn't and shouldn't care about that, and there are hundreds of churches who allow gay couples to wed, and tens of thousands of gay couples who have made such a committment to one another. And these are the gays who belong to a church. I believe that the majority of gay people believe in God, but not religion. For us, religion is a total failure, and not just to gay people. That is why atheists typically side on equal rights.

Edit: Something just struck me. I get tired of this "a child needs a mother and a father"...bull****. Yes, on paper, a father bringing home the bacon and a mother home cooking and cleaning is a good family model, but if that father is molesting the children while mommy is drinking enough to fill the River Nile, what good is that? Wake up. This is not a perfect world, and people do the best they can. Saying that two biological parents is the ideal is NOT the same as saying all other options are bad.

sunyatasamsara
08-26-2009, 01:52 PM
Marriage is a religious concept so I don't think gays should get married. This is coming from an atheist. I'm a Buddhist and marriage has nothing to do with my religion and I don't plan on getting married. (no homo)

jimbob007
08-26-2009, 02:16 PM
That is not to say that marriage cannot work, but generally the idea of 2 people swearing oaths to one another & then living the rest of their lives without giving in to temptation is unrealistic for most people.




So you have no problems with gays/lesbians being together.

You think the entire institution of marriage is a outdated and a waste of time/money.


Why even make the distinction between gay and straight marriage at that point? If marriage as a whole is outdated and a waste of time, and you are ok with gays/lesbians being together....whats the problem?

jimbob007
08-26-2009, 02:23 PM
It is up to everybody how they live their own lives, I am just expressing my opinion- unlike religious zealots who will picket the streets & tell gays & lesbians they will burn in hell for eternity, I will not do anything of the sort. If their union is recognised by wherever they are then fair enough, I am not going to lose any sleep over it.

Of course any home where there is any abuse is wrong, this can be the father, the mother, stepfather, deadbeat boyfriends etc. But generally society was far better mannered & behaved when you had the nuclear family with a mother & father who bought their kids up to show respect, rather than what we have seen since the collapse of it- with women having 8 kids by 6 or 7 different men, who then vanish or end up in prison & you end up with estates full of these families who have no positive role models to look up to & so gravitate to crime & anti social behaviour.


You sure have a lot of ideas about how others should live their lives. Are you sure you're an atheist?

Please note that marriage laws have nothing to do with sex, and little to do with children. Laws that protect children are the same whether their parents are married or not.

As far as the OP goes, I don't agree that it is mostly atheists, or even largely atheists, who support gay marriage. In fact I'd say the battle for gay marriage started in church. There is no doubt that marriage has a religious side to it, though the law doesn't and shouldn't care about that, and there are hundreds of churches who allow gay couples to wed, and tens of thousands of gay couples who have made such a committment to one another. And these are the gays who belong to a church. I believe that the majority of gay people believe in God, but not religion. For us, religion is a total failure, and not just to gay people. That is why atheists typically side on equal rights.

Edit: Something just struck me. I get tired of this "a child needs a mother and a father"...bull****. Yes, on paper, a father bringing home the bacon and a mother home cooking and cleaning is a good family model, but if that father is molesting the children while mommy is drinking enough to fill the River Nile, what good is that? Wake up. This is not a perfect world, and people do the best they can. Saying that two biological parents is the ideal is NOT the same as saying all other options are bad.

b3rtstare
08-26-2009, 02:23 PM
It seems when the gay marriage topic comes up, most atheists are on the side that agrees it should be allowed. Is this because all atheists are closet homosexuals? I think there is a correlation here.

IDK, your an atheist, why don't you tell us?

SDMuscleBuddy
08-26-2009, 02:24 PM
That is not to say that marriage cannot work, but generally the idea of 2 people swearing oaths to one another & then living the rest of their lives without giving in to temptation is unrealistic for most people.

That's no reason not to protect the marriage contract for as long as they choose to stay together.

VTheKing
08-26-2009, 02:31 PM
Atheists are generally more socially liberal/progressive than theists (at least in North America) as well as not being bound to some obscure interpretation of religious texts, so it's no wonder the majority of them endorses gay marriage.

I personally do as well - no one should be denied the right to be united with their loved one because of their sexuality. It's outright discrimination that has nothing to do with our world.

SDMuscleBuddy
08-26-2009, 02:35 PM
It is up to everybody how they live their own lives, I am just expressing my opinion- unlike religious zealots who will picket the streets & tell gays & lesbians they will burn in hell for eternity, I will not do anything of the sort. If their union is recognised by wherever they are then fair enough, I am not going to lose any sleep over it.

Of course any home where there is any abuse is wrong, this can be the father, the mother, stepfather, deadbeat boyfriends etc. But generally society was far better mannered & behaved when you had the nuclear family with a mother & father who bought their kids up to show respect, rather than what we have seen since the collapse of it- with women having 8 kids by 6 or 7 different men, who then vanish or end up in prison & you end up with estates full of these families who have no positive role models to look up to & so gravitate to crime & anti social behaviour.

I suggest you have a problem with causal effects here. I don't see a relationship between the decline of the nuclear family and the decline of well-mannered children. Good parenting is good parenting regardless of the marital status of the parent. Being divorced, or single, or gay, doesn't change your responsibility to the child, and if you live up to that responsibility your kids will do OK.

Nevertheless, what your argument convinces me of is that the outlook for children of gay parents is much more rosy once the ban is lifted and their parents marry.

jimbob007
08-26-2009, 02:41 PM
I agree & that is the big problem today- most people do not take their vows seriously & run at the first sign of trouble. My parents have been married for over 40 years, but as time moves on it is hard to see many lasting anywhere near that now.



That's no reason not to protect the marriage contract for as long as they choose to stay together.

jimbob007
08-26-2009, 02:45 PM
I am not sure what it is like in America, but here it has become endemic as the nuclear family has eroded over the years. Like serial killers the kids take their behaviour from their home life- for many of them that usually consists of a mother who is obese & addicted to drink &.or drugs, a criminal father who is in & out of jail, or quite often no idea who their father is because the mother was too drunk to remember who she was having unprotected sex with at the time etc. If you want to see what the average UK family looks like & how they behave just go to YouTube & type in Jeremy Kyle Show.



I suggest you have a problem with causal effects here. I don't see a relationship between the decline of the nuclear family and the decline of well-mannered children. Good parenting is good parenting regardless of the marital status of the parent. Being divorced, or single, or gay, doesn't change your responsibility to the child, and if you live up to that responsibility your kids will do OK.

Nevertheless, what your argument convinces me of is that the outlook for children of gay parents is much more rosy once the ban is lifted and their parents marry.

OddLawnGnome
08-26-2009, 02:48 PM
Marriage is a religious concept so I don't think gays should get married. This is coming from an atheist. I'm a Buddhist and marriage has nothing to do with my religion and I don't plan on getting married. (no homo)

If it was a purely religious title then there would be no problem. The problem is because it is also legally sanctioned, straight couples get all manner of benefits that gay couples don't. It's absurd that celebrities can get married for a matter of days to stay on the tabloid covers while hundreds of thousands of couples who love each other and just want to be left alone are persecuted.


He would tell them to repent of their sins, not to hate them for it. Homosexuality is just as bad a sin as adultery, and many heterosexuals do the latter. One is not more bad of a sin than the other. I just believe homosexuality to be unnatural and a byproduct of a corrupted sexual mind, just like sodomy, adultery, or any form of sexual immorality. Some Christians today tend to cast the first stone when they neglect to look upon their own sexual sins.

Matthew 5:28 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

How exactly do homosexual couples affect your life? You sound like a gay man killed your family or something. Your religion preaches love but makes love conditional and has a tidal wave of hate and suffering for anyone who falls outside your parameters. Out of curiosity, what constitutes a "sexual sin"? I know you Christians just can't wait for all that bloody and painful pop-your-cherry-on-your-honeymoon sex, but what else?

How about this, little Christlings: If equality is a sin (and civil rights have worked, world isn't covered in glorious holy cleansing fire yet) then just let it happen. If God is pissed, he can come smite every gay person. Though honestly, I would be seriously pissed at a God who smites lesbians.

shark2492
08-26-2009, 03:00 PM
If it was a purely religious title then there would be no problem. The problem is because it is also legally sanctioned, straight couples get all manner of benefits that gay couples don't. It's absurd that celebrities can get married for a matter of days to stay on the tabloid covers while hundreds of thousands of couples who love each other and just want to be left alone are persecuted.



How exactly do homosexual couples affect your life? You sound like a gay man killed your family or something. Your religion preaches love but makes love conditional and has a tidal wave of hate and suffering for anyone who falls outside your parameters. Out of curiosity, what constitutes a "sexual sin"? I know you Christians just can't wait for all that bloody and painful pop-your-cherry-on-your-honeymoon sex, but what else?

How about this, little Christlings: If equality is a sin (and civil rights have worked, world isn't covered in glorious holy cleansing fire yet) then just let it happen. If God is pissed, he can come smite every gay person. Though honestly, I would be seriously pissed at a God who smites lesbians.

Your talkin about christians hate for people outside their perameters, but then you as an athiest go on to make spiteful comments about christians abstinance and being little "christlings". How does that make you look? Think about it honestly.

x_aDrenaLine_x
08-26-2009, 03:08 PM
If it was a purely religious title then there would be no problem. The problem is because it is also legally sanctioned, straight couples get all manner of benefits that gay couples don't. It's absurd that celebrities can get married for a matter of days to stay on the tabloid covers while hundreds of thousands of couples who love each other and just want to be left alone are persecuted.



How exactly do homosexual couples affect your life? You sound like a gay man killed your family or something. Your religion preaches love but makes love conditional and has a tidal wave of hate and suffering for anyone who falls outside your parameters. Out of curiosity, what constitutes a "sexual sin"? I know you Christians just can't wait for all that bloody and painful pop-your-cherry-on-your-honeymoon sex, but what else?

How about this, little Christlings: If equality is a sin (and civil rights have worked, world isn't covered in glorious holy cleansing fire yet) then just let it happen. If God is pissed, he can come smite every gay person. Though honestly, I would be seriously pissed at a God who smites lesbians.

Homosexuality, in my belief, is a sin. It is much of a sin as lust for women other than your own wife, just as heterosexuals love to do. Where in my post did it give you the idea that I was angry toward gay men? In fact you should have said the opposite because of my first sentence in my last post. I said that homosexuality is a byproduct of a corrupted sexual mind, just like lust. One is not more bad than the other, they are both the same. No one is going to kill a man for being gay. Neither are gay men going to kill heterosexuals for lusting for other women. We are not to condone death unto those that sin for the simple fact that we ourselves are sinners. God is the ultimate Judge, not us. We all sin and we all have struggles somewhere in life, whether it be in stealing, lying, lusting, homosexuality, etc. The only thing that is allowed, in terms of sex, is married sex for the simple fact for those who wish to give birth to children have the opportunity to do so the natural way.

jimbob007
08-26-2009, 03:15 PM
Homosexuality is not a sin, it is determined by chromosomes not a man with a beard. Lusting after multiple women is not a sin either- is is 100% natural, yet is something religion tries to lay a guilt trip on people for- as they have done masturbation for instance.

mntbikedude
08-26-2009, 03:16 PM
Homosexuality, in my belief, is a sin. It is much of a sin as lust for women other than your own wife, just as heterosexuals love to do. Where in my post did it give you the idea that I was angry toward gay men? In fact you should have said the opposite because of my first sentence in my last post. I said that homosexuality is a byproduct of a corrupted sexual mind, just like lust. One is not more bad than the other, they are both the same. No one is going to kill a man for being gay. Neither are gay men going to kill heterosexuals for lusting for other women. We are not to condone death unto those that sin for the simple fact that we ourselves are sinners. God is the ultimate Judge, not us. We all sin and we all have struggles somewhere in life, whether it be in stealing, lying, lusting, homosexuality, etc. The only thing that is allowed, in terms of sex, is married sex for the simple fact for those who wish to give birth to children have the opportunity to do so the natural way.

I love the christian brainwashing that homosexuality is listed along with stealing, adultry ect. Homosexuality isn't something you do it is who you are. As restrictive as christianity is at least for heterosexuals that is at least some acceptable way to exspress their sexuality.

For homosexuals they leave nothing but frustration and self-loathing. Exsperiencing first hand how religion in general has delt with me and being gay. It is proof to me that religion has no idea what they are doing. And tho there is devine principals it is destorted by mans own ideas.

powerman2000
08-26-2009, 03:32 PM
I love the christian brainwashing that homosexuality is listed along with stealing, adultry ect. Homosexuality isn't something you do it is who you are. I love how homosexuals will make statements like this while completely ignoring the fact that even though it's not listed in the 10 Commandments, the bible does specifically condemn homosexual behavior in both the OT and the NT.


As restrictive as christianity is at least for heterosexuals that is at least some acceptable way to exspress their sexuality.I see, you'd prefer it if you were just allowed to behave however you wish and do whatever you want.


And tho there is devine principals it is destorted by mans own ideas.
I won't disagree with that, but I'd like to know what your basis is for you saying it.

shark2492
08-26-2009, 03:32 PM
Im about to throw a wrench in this beautifully screwed up machine we have running.
I dont doubt that itll get slaughtered by my brothers in christianity, but oh well. Its who i am. Ive already stated that Im a very open minded and tolerant person. Im not attracted to homosexuality myself, but...Im okay with it. Yeah, a christian who isnt bothered by homosexuality. Everyone on here makes all christians out to be homophobes that would gladly hang one if they saw em. Not so. Ive had a few friends with homosexual preferences. NO BIG. We have to stop trying to put one team against another. Athiests vs Christians. Theres way too much variation in either side. Get it?

powerman2000
08-26-2009, 03:47 PM
Im about to throw a wrench in this beautifully screwed up machine we have running.
I dont doubt that itll get slaughtered by my brothers in christianity, but oh well. Its who i am. Ive already stated that Im a very open minded and tolerant person. Im not attracted to homosexuality myself, but...Im okay with it. Yeah, a christian who isnt bothered by homosexuality. Everyone on here makes all christians out to be homophobes that would gladly hang one if they saw em. Not so. Ive had a few friends with homosexual preferences. NO BIG. We have to stop trying to put one team against another. Athiests vs Christians. Theres way too much variation in either side. Get it?

Unfortunately bro, in general, homosexuals want to force everyone to be accepting of their lifestyle. That's a big problem. I am "tolerant" of gays in that I do not treat them any differently than anyone else even though I totally disagree with their sexual behaviors. I would have an equal amount of trouble being friends with a gay man or woman as I would with a man who is cheating on his wife. And I'm talking about unrepentant people.

I would also ask you if you are okay with adultery or pornography?

mntbikedude
08-26-2009, 03:55 PM
I won't disagree with that, but I'd like to know what your basis is for you saying it.

I've lived many prinicpals that I know are true. Example I know that having self-control over emotions, appetites is one of the rules that govern spirituality. But I also know that the way that churches have delt with homosexuals has been a disaster. Having lived this is different than just reading about it. If what christians have been teaching that gays are supposed to do was true than there would be some real long term solutions.

For every christian claiming to be cured by some therapy there are many more that have had disasterous results. I have talked with many gays that are very closeted, that serve in churches and have never openly spoke of who they are to anyone. They are living secret fake lives. They may be your neighbor, your doctor, your pastor they may be your workout partner. And they live in fear, fear that someday people will find out.

Just recently in SLC on a public walkway in front of Temple Square in Utah a gay couple was holding hands, and as do many couples that pass in front of the temple the one reached up and kissed his partner on the check. They were arrested, and handcuffed by mormon security guards.

This cannot continue, religion cannot be allowed to be able to exert such control over us any longer.

OddLawnGnome
08-26-2009, 03:58 PM
Your talkin about christians hate for people outside their perameters, but then you as an athiest go on to make spiteful comments about christians abstinance and being little "christlings". How does that make you look? Think about it honestly. I don't think abstinence in itself is a bad idea. If you don't want to have sex that is absolutely your right. A doctrine, however, that makes sex taboo and a sin is being authoritative for the sake of it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with consenting and safe sex. Whereas religion teaches hate and/or condescension to all outsiders, atheism lets you pick and choose. I only condescend to the loonies :)


Homosexuality, in my belief, is a sin. It is much of a sin as lust for women other than your own wife, just as heterosexuals love to do. Where in my post did it give you the idea that I was angry toward gay men? In fact you should have said the opposite because of my first sentence in my last post. I said that homosexuality is a byproduct of a corrupted sexual mind, just like lust. One is not more bad than the other, they are both the same. No one is going to kill a man for being gay. Neither are gay men going to kill heterosexuals for lusting for other women. We are not to condone death unto those that sin for the simple fact that we ourselves are sinners. God is the ultimate Judge, not us. We all sin and we all have struggles somewhere in life, whether it be in stealing, lying, lusting, homosexuality, etc. The only thing that is allowed, in terms of sex, is married sex for the simple fact for those who wish to give birth to children have the opportunity to do so the natural way. I reasoned that the only logical cause that one could be so against gay people was if a gay person had done them harm. Once I edit out the baseless and non sequitur rambling in your post, I come away with the following:

Homosexuality, in my belief, is a sin. It is much of a sin as lust for women other than your own wife, just as heterosexuals love to do. The only thing that is allowed, in terms of sex, is married sex for the simple fact for those who wish to give birth to children have the opportunity to do so the natural way. Please see above questions. How is safe sex bad? Babies are not the only function of sex, it's a great way to be intimate with someone and there are a host of health benefits.


I see, you'd prefer it if you were just allowed to behave however you wish and do whatever you want. Strong whipped, I bet your girlfriend loves you.

sunyatasamsara
08-26-2009, 03:58 PM
True but there should be a seperation between church and state. Marriage should be a religious thing and nothing more. I hate that I live in a Christian country and have to live by their morals instead of being free to make my own choices as long as they don't hurt others.


If it was a purely religious title then there would be no problem. The problem is because it is also legally sanctioned, straight couples get all manner of benefits that gay couples don't. It's absurd that celebrities can get married for a matter of days to stay on the tabloid covers while hundreds of thousands of couples who love each other and just want to be left alone are persecuted.



How exactly do homosexual couples affect your life? You sound like a gay man killed your family or something. Your religion preaches love but makes love conditional and has a tidal wave of hate and suffering for anyone who falls outside your parameters. Out of curiosity, what constitutes a "sexual sin"? I know you Christians just can't wait for all that bloody and painful pop-your-cherry-on-your-honeymoon sex, but what else?

How about this, little Christlings: If equality is a sin (and civil rights have worked, world isn't covered in glorious holy cleansing fire yet) then just let it happen. If God is pissed, he can come smite every gay person. Though honestly, I would be seriously pissed at a God who smites lesbians.

mntbikedude
08-26-2009, 03:59 PM
Unfortunately bro, in general, homosexuals want to force everyone to be accepting of their lifestyle. That's a big problem. I am "tolerant" of gays in that I do not treat them any differently than anyone else even though I totally disagree with their sexual behaviors. I would have an equal amount of trouble being friends with a gay man or woman as I would with a man who is cheating on his wife. And I'm talking about unrepentant people.

I would also ask you if you are okay with adultery or pornography?

We don't want to force people to accept our lifestyle, (funny part is my lifestyle right now is living in a heterosexual marriage and being faithful to my wife). No one is forcing anyone to accept us. All we want is to be treated with the same respect for our beliefs as you exspect for yours.

Fitzwell
08-26-2009, 04:00 PM
It seems when the gay marriage topic comes up, most atheists are on the side that agrees it should be allowed. Is this because all atheists are closet homosexuals? I think there is a correlation here.


Atheists have more compassion for their fellow human being and believe in innate human rights of others. Christians are generally self-centered and hypocritical and only donate money to make themselves feel better about themselves and then crucify those different from them by using age-old stories. Atheists, on the other hand, like to practice tolerance and empathy and "understand the enemy" rather than dehumanize others to make the self feel special.

That is why atheists care more about gay marriage. They see an injustice and are not sheep; Christians generally would fall right into place with cultist regimes like narrow-minded sheep. Atheists push for change by thinking for themselves and realize that when something is unjust, the right thing to do is to fight for justice.

Ironically, it's more likely that Atheists go to the real Heaven for doing such good deeds for their fellow man.





This post through Christian eyes: Yah all atheists r gay cuz god put them on erth to test us. god bless!

Wow, 2 absolutely horrible posts.

powerman2000
08-26-2009, 04:00 PM
I've lived many prinicpals that I know are true. Example I know that having self-control over emotions, appetites is one of the rules that govern spirituality. But I also know that the way that churches have delt with homosexuals has been a disaster. Having lived this is different than just reading about it. If what christians have been teaching that gays are supposed to do was true than there would be some real long term solutions.

For every christian claiming to be cured by some therapy there are many more that have had disasterous results. I have talked with many gays that are very closeted, that serve in churches and have never openly spoke of who they are to anyone. They are living secret fake lives. They may be your neighbor, your doctor, your pastor they may be your workout partner. And they live in fear, fear that someday people will find out.

Just recently in SLC on a public walkway in front of Temple Square in Utah a gay couple was holding hands, and as do many couples that pass in front of the temple the one reached up and kissed his partner on the check. They were arrested, and handcuffed by mormon security guards.

This cannot continue, religion cannot be allowed to be able to exert such control over us any longer.

Is it fair to say that you're relying on nothing more than you own individual experiences?

x_aDrenaLine_x
08-26-2009, 04:00 PM
I love the christian brainwashing that homosexuality is listed along with stealing, adultry ect. Homosexuality isn't something you do it is who you are. As restrictive as christianity is at least for heterosexuals that is at least some acceptable way to exspress their sexuality.

For homosexuals they leave nothing but frustration and self-loathing. Exsperiencing first hand how religion in general has delt with me and being gay. It is proof to me that religion has no idea what they are doing. And tho there is devine principals it is destorted by mans own ideas.

I respect your opinion, though I don't agree with it. We are all dealt with difficulties in this life no matter it be with sex or gluttony. You can say that people who have a harder time dealing with food are struggling just as much as you are, but that isn't to say that it isn't a sin. For me, personally, I deal with lust/pornography often and I know in my heart that it is a sin. God wants us all to be holy and in trying to be so He expects us to give an effort to say no to all sinful desires. You are struggling just as much as any heterosexual who is addicted to pornography; that is not to say that it is wrong because we have a tendency to do it often and therefore think it's ok to do so. Yes we are guys and we will most often lust after people but that doesn't make it a less horrible offense. I, myself, have some gay friends. Because I am Christian it doesn't mean I hate them, rather I love them but God hates what they do. Think of it this way, God loves you but hates sin, so therefore hates some of the things we do. I also have friends who like to get wasted almost all the time. Who is to say that the gay guy is worse of a sinner than the drunk? Every sin, no matter how it may look to us, is a sin to God.

SDMuscleBuddy
08-26-2009, 04:01 PM
Unfortunately bro, in general, homosexuals want to force everyone to be accepting of their lifestyle. That's a big problem. I am "tolerant" of gays in that I do not treat them any differently than anyone else even though I totally disagree with their sexual behaviors. I would have an equal amount of trouble being friends with a gay man or woman as I would with a man who is cheating on his wife. And I'm talking about unrepentant people.

I would also ask you if you are okay with adultery or pornography?

What do you mean by being "accepting of their lifestyle"? You don't have to accept anyone's lifestyle. People can live any lifestyle they choose - without infringing the rights of others - and we all have to tolerate it, but we are not required to accept it. I don't care what your attitude is toward me, but when that attitude becomes legislation now we got a fight.

In gray areas, such as "sin", unless there are specific laws against it (slander, assault, theft, or murder), we all do better simply ignoring those behaviors we personally consider immoral, unethical, or just plain wrong. It is not our place to judge, though we all do it anyway.

shark2492
08-26-2009, 04:02 PM
Unfortunately bro, in general, homosexuals want to force everyone to be accepting of their lifestyle. That's a big problem. I am "tolerant" of gays in that I do not treat them any differently than anyone else even though I totally disagree with their sexual behaviors. I would have an equal amount of trouble being friends with a gay man or woman as I would with a man who is cheating on his wife. And I'm talking about unrepentant people.

I would also ask you if you are okay with adultery or pornography?

Yeah, i get what youre saying. But, out of personal experience, the guys ive known have actually kept more or less to themselves. Im just saying that its not completely right when christians slam homosexuals because of what they are when there wasnt provocation for it. Most dont agree with me on the next point because im not directly following whats written in the book by recruiting soldiers of Christ. In my mind, I think homosexuals should have the right to choose, because in the end theyre the ones who are going to meet judgement. Its not my place.
Im not encouraging homosexuality by any means. Im not supporting it nor am i trying to excuse it, im just saying that we as christians should try to understand and help instead of jeer.

And the last question kinda stings because I know Im not in the right. Im not going to sit here and lie saying ive never had sexual fantasies about women. Ive committed adultery to the extreme. Porn? Look at it on a regular basis. Its not right, I know that. I deff need work as a developing christian. Ill always need work, everyone does.

BullByTheHorns
08-26-2009, 04:03 PM
I am an atheist who believes marriage should only be between a man & a woman, although I think marriage is generally an outdated concept anyway.

x2.

powerman2000
08-26-2009, 04:03 PM
Wow, 2 absolutely horrible posts.

I think JAGERBOY was kidding, but I agree, ColtsForTheWin made a terrible post.

Nothing like stereotyping millions on the actions of a few.

mntbikedude
08-26-2009, 04:04 PM
Is it fair to say that you're relying on nothing more than you own individual experiences?

No absolutely not, I have read hundreds of case studies of couples that have gone thru therapy.

Fitzwell
08-26-2009, 04:07 PM
I think JAGERBOY was kidding, but I agree, ColtsFortheWin made a terrible post.

Nothing like stereotyping millions on the actions of a few.

Ya I agree. Even if he was joking, he posted that obviously knowing this thread would cause unnecessary drama and harsh words, and that is just immaturity in its greatest form.

shark2492
08-26-2009, 04:07 PM
I respect your opinion, though I don't agree with it. We are all dealt with difficulties in this life no matter it be with sex or gluttony. You can say that people who have a harder time dealing with food are struggling just as much as you are, but that isn't to say that it isn't a sin. For me, personally, I deal with lust/pornography often and I know in my heart that it is a sin. God wants us all to be holy and in trying to be so He expects us to give an effort to say no to all sinful desires. You are struggling just as much as any heterosexual who is addicted to pornography; that is not to say that it is wrong because we have a tendency to do it often and therefore think it's ok to do so. Yes we are guys and we will most often lust after people but that doesn't make it a less horrible offense. I, myself, have some gay friends. Because I am Christian it doesn't mean I hate them, rather I love them but God hates what they do. Think of it this way, God loves you but hates sin, so therefore hates some of the things we do. I also have friends who like to get wasted almost all the time. Who is to say that the gay guy is worse of a sinner than the drunk? Every sin, no matter how it may look to us, is a sin to God.

Thank you dude. Im glad Im not the only guy to be brutally honest.

SDMuscleBuddy
08-26-2009, 04:09 PM
True but there should be a seperation between church and state. Marriage should be a religious thing and nothing more. I hate that I live in a Christian country and have to live by their morals instead of being free to make my own choices as long as they don't hurt others.

Well, I tend to agree, but in the case of marriage, it transcends religion. Two people from different families wish to start a new one their own so they take a vow and the unions between the couple and their respective families are broken and a new one between them is made. Given that we live in a secular republic, laws have to be in place to protect this new union. No church has the legal authority, and certainly no authority over non-members. Legal marriage protects all marriages including couples married in non-religious ceremonies.

mntbikedude
08-26-2009, 04:09 PM
I respect your opinion, though I don't agree with it. We are all dealt with difficulties in this life no matter it be with sex or gluttony. You can say that people who have a harder time dealing with food are struggling just as much as you are, but that isn't to say that it isn't a sin. For me, personally, I deal with lust/pornography often and I know in my heart that it is a sin. God wants us all to be holy and in trying to be so He expects us to give an effort to say no to all sinful desires. You are struggling just as much as any heterosexual who is addicted to pornography; that is not to say that it is wrong because we have a tendency to do it often and therefore think it's ok to do so. Yes we are guys and we will most often lust after people but that doesn't make it a less horrible offense. I, myself, have some gay friends. Because I am Christian it doesn't mean I hate them, rather I love them but God hates what they do. Think of it this way, God loves you but hates sin, so therefore hates some of the things we do. I also have friends who like to get wasted almost all the time. Who is to say that the gay guy is worse of a sinner than the drunk? Every sin, no matter how it may look to us, is a sin to God.

Being promiscuous if wrong regardless whether someone is gay or straight. I do not advocate someone that is gay to just go do whatever to whomever. (althought I don't deny them that right). To me if I had a gay child I would encourage that same morals that I have taught to my straight children. I would encourage them to date and get to know someone, fall in love and get married before sex.

powerman2000
08-26-2009, 04:10 PM
We don't want to force people to accept our lifestyle, (funny part is my lifestyle right now is living in a heterosexual marriage and being faithful to my wife). No one is forcing anyone to accept us. All we want is to be treated with the same respect for our beliefs as you exspect for yours.

Why do I have to treat you with respect for you beliefs? Can't I just respect you as a person and a human being? Why do beliefs need to be brought into the mix in this context?

Clearly we don't respect each others beliefs on this matter, but we can still be respectful towards one another, always.

And don't say, "We don't want to force people to accept our lifestyle", because you know very well that many gays have just such an agenda.

I thought you ended your marriage?

War Machine
08-26-2009, 04:11 PM
I am an atheist who believes marriage should only be between a man & a woman, although I think marriage is generally an outdated concept anyway.


x2.

x3.

SDMuscleBuddy
08-26-2009, 04:12 PM
Why do I have to treat you with respect for you beliefs? Can't I just respect you as a person and a human being? Why do beliefs need to be brought into the mix in this context?

Clearly we don't respect each others beliefs on this matter, but we can still be respectful towards one another, always.

And don't say, "We don't want to force people to accept our lifestyle", because you know very well that many gays have just such an agenda.

I thought you ended your marriage?

I ask again, what does "accept our lifestyle" mean?

BigTimexXx
08-26-2009, 04:13 PM
Being promiscuous if wrong regardless whether someone is gay or straight. I do not advocate someone that is gay to just go do whatever to whomever. (althought I don't deny them that right). To me if I had a gay child I would encourage that same morals that I have taught to my straight children. I would encourage them to date and get to know someone, fall in love and get married before sex.

It's wrong in your opinion. ;)

Sex has got no inherent ties to any kind of morality in any way, shape, or form. If you want to tie it to morality yourself however, then that is perfectly fine.

mntbikedude
08-26-2009, 04:14 PM
You guys need to understand being gay isn't some sin. Anyone that is gay or straight that sleeps around is going to pay natural consequences that happens. If you are addicted to porn gay or straight it is the same results.

Likewise a gay man can fall in love with another man and feel all the wonderful feelings that come with falling in love. Making a commitment from that love and being faithfull will bring the same peace and happiness that comes when the same thing happens with the heterosexual person.

All those things you list such as being a drunk, cheating all of those things bring sorrow and sadness. Falling in love, being faithfull, bringing out the best in your partner those things bring the same rewards across the board.

mntbikedude
08-26-2009, 04:14 PM
It's wrong in your opinion. ;)

Sex has got no inherent ties to any kind of morality in any way, shape, or form. If you want to tie it to morality yourself however, then that is perfectly fine.

Your right I am typing this too fast. It's wrong for me to do that.

powerman2000
08-26-2009, 04:15 PM
It is not our place to judge, though we all do it anyway.
I didn't write the bible, I just follow it. And no, I don't follow ancient practices from the OT that were cultural in nature.

powerman2000
08-26-2009, 04:17 PM
No absolutely not, I have read hundreds of case studies of couples that have gone thru therapy.

Hundreds?..........really? :rolleyes:

I doubt that many.

powerman2000
08-26-2009, 04:21 PM
Yeah, i get what youre saying. But, out of personal experience, the guys ive known have actually kept more or less to themselves. Im just saying that its not completely right when christians slam homosexuals because of what they are when there wasnt provocation for it. Most dont agree with me on the next point because im not directly following whats written in the book by recruiting soldiers of Christ. In my mind, I think homosexuals should have the right to choose, because in the end theyre the ones who are going to meet judgement. Its not my place.
Im not encouraging homosexuality by any means. Im not supporting it nor am i trying to excuse it, im just saying that we as christians should try to understand and help instead of jeer.Agreed.


And the last question kinda stings because I know Im not in the right. Im not going to sit here and lie saying ive never had sexual fantasies about women. Ive committed adultery to the extreme. Porn? Look at it on a regular basis. Its not right, I know that. I deff need work as a developing christian. Ill always need work, everyone does.I've been there too little brother.

I wasn't fishing for a confession either, but mad respect for your honesty.

SDMuscleBuddy
08-26-2009, 04:21 PM
I didn't write the bible, I just follow it. And no, I don't follow ancient practices from the OT that were cultural in nature.

Follow what you want, but give everyone else the same courtesy. What I can't reconcile is which, in this context, "Are ancient practices from the OT that were cultural in nature," and which aren't. Can it not be argued that the lines in the OT regarding homosexuality, if that is indeed what they were about, were at the time also cultural in nature? I mean, it said the same thing about homosexuality as it did about lobster. And we are all aware that Jesus Himself had nothing to say on the subject. How do you interpret that?

powerman2000
08-26-2009, 04:24 PM
I ask again, what does "accept our lifestyle" mean?

To me it means validating homosexuality as not being wrong or a sin against God.

mntbikedude
08-26-2009, 04:24 PM
Why do I have to treat you with respect for you beliefs? Can't I just respect you as a person and a human being? Why do beliefs need to be brought into the mix in this context?

Clearly we don't respect each others beliefs on this matter, but we can still be respectful towards one another, always.

And don't say, "We don't want to force people to accept our lifestyle", because you know very well that many gays have just such an agenda.

I thought you ended your marriage?

We don't have to respect each others beliefs, but we do need to respect each others rights to believe however we feel is right. I shouldn't have to ask for your permission or societies if I want to marry another man.

And I have not ended my marriage. And at this point I don't know what will happen we are just trying to figure it all out. And I am not out having gay relationships. .

powerman2000
08-26-2009, 04:27 PM
You guys need to understand being gay isn't some sin.

According to you.

powerman2000
08-26-2009, 04:30 PM
We don't have to respect each others beliefs, but we do need to respect each others rights to believe however we feel is right. Agreed.


I shouldn't have to ask for your permission or societies if I want to marry another man.Yes, you do, if that means having equal legal status as a hetero married couple. IMO

Otherwise marry whoever the heck you want.


And I have not ended my marriage. And at this point I don't know what will happen we are just trying to figure it all out. And I am not out having gay relationships. .

Okay, I don't want to pry into your personal life too much, out of respect.

mntbikedude
08-26-2009, 04:32 PM
Hundreds?..........really? :rolleyes:

I doubt that many.

First off why would you question that I would not have done a ton of research on something that has caused so much pain in my life.

My therapist has written several studies and has done a great deal of research regarding the results of reparative therapy. In his study alone there were over 100 couples. I have had many contact me first hand from bb.com since I came out that are married closeted gays.

shark2492
08-26-2009, 04:34 PM
Agreed.

I've been there too little brother.

I wasn't fishing for a confession either, but mad respect for your honesty.

Lol, no confession, just keepin it real

powerman2000
08-26-2009, 04:35 PM
Follow what you want, but give everyone else the same courtesy. What I can't reconcile is which, in this context, "Are ancient practices from the OT that were cultural in nature," and which aren't. Can it not be argued that the lines in the OT regarding homosexuality, if that is indeed what they were about, were at the time also cultural in nature? I mean, it said the same thing about homosexuality as it did about lobster. And we are all aware that Jesus Himself had nothing to say on the subject. How do you interpret that?

My statement was not constrained merely to the context at hand.

OddLawnGnome
08-26-2009, 04:36 PM
I respect your opinion, though I don't agree with it. We are all dealt with difficulties in this life no matter it be with sex or gluttony. You can say that people who have a harder time dealing with food are struggling just as much as you are, but that isn't to say that it isn't a sin. For me, personally, I deal with lust/pornography often and I know in my heart that it is a sin. God wants us all to be holy and in trying to be so He expects us to give an effort to say no to all sinful desires. You are struggling just as much as any heterosexual who is addicted to pornography; that is not to say that it is wrong because we have a tendency to do it often and therefore think it's ok to do so. Yes we are guys and we will most often lust after people but that doesn't make it a less horrible offense. I, myself, have some gay friends. Because I am Christian it doesn't mean I hate them, rather I love them but God hates what they do. Think of it this way, God loves you but hates sin, so therefore hates some of the things we do. I also have friends who like to get wasted almost all the time. Who is to say that the gay guy is worse of a sinner than the drunk? Every sin. no matter how it may look to us, is a sin to God.
I'm going to go ahead and call BS on that. You cannot possibly respect his lifestyle (I'm sorry, his "opinion") if you equate being gay with cheating or being an alcoholic. Good point though, fatties are sinners too. I forgot that part.

Being gay is only a "struggle" because people like you insist on persecuting that lifestyle.


Unfortunately bro, in general, homosexuals want to force everyone to be accepting of their lifestyle. That's a big problem. I am "tolerant" of gays in that I do not treat them any differently than anyone else even though I totally disagree with their sexual behaviors. I would have an equal amount of trouble being friends with a gay man or woman as I would with a man who is cheating on his wife. And I'm talking about unrepentant people.

I would also ask you if you are okay with adultery or pornography?

Ok, some things really need to be cleared up here.

Adultery: "extramarital sex that willfully and maliciously interferes with marriage relations"
Homosexuality: "a sexual attraction to (or sexual relations with) persons of the same sex"
Note: I do not consider still finding other people attractive while you are in a committed relationship adultery. As long as you can look back at your partner and still think that they are more attractive and you prefer them, then you're being perfectly loyal. I do think that watching porn while you are in a committed relationship is wrong though- assuming of course that your relationship has reached the sexual stage. Nothing wrong with porn on the whole though, although I personally feel like I have grown out of it. Memory is much better. Secondly, by comparing to them to adulterers you are treating them differently. Stop lying to us and yourself.


And the last question kinda stings because I know Im not in the right. Im not going to sit here and lie saying ive never had sexual fantasies about women. Ive committed adultery to the extreme. Porn? Look at it on a regular basis. Its not right, I know that. I deff need work as a developing christian. Ill always need work, everyone does.
You are a 19 year old male who has been bullied into thinking that having fantasies about women is horrible. It is impossible to commit adultery if you
a. Are not married
b. Have never got beyond the "fantasies" stage

Lust is a perfectly natural feeling to have as soon as you're over the age of 10. Only religion attaches a negative connotation to it. As long as it is consenting (and hopefully protected) sex there is absolutely no reason to frown on it or feel guilty.


Question to all theists:
Without using some variation of the phrase "because God says so", explain to me why sex and homosexuality are bad.

DangerDan
08-26-2009, 04:37 PM
It seems when the gay marriage topic comes up, most atheists are on the side that agrees it should be allowed. Is this because all atheists are closet homosexuals? I think there is a correlation here.

http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww300/seanachie/NotSureIfSerious.jpg

SDMuscleBuddy
08-26-2009, 04:40 PM
To me it means validating homosexuality as not being wrong or a sin against God.

Well, legally speaking it is not wrong, but who is trying to make you believe that it is not morally wrong or a sin? How are they doing this? Some can try but they won't get very far. Just as you won't get far trying to make us believe that being gay is those things. I would say the same thing to you as you should say to these others, if you don't like my religious beliefs don't go to my church. If you don't like homosexuality, don't be gay.

That's all anyone can do. Getting into a culture war over it is just plain stupid. In the end, we're all just humans trying to grab as much happiness as we can while we can.

Skettch
08-26-2009, 04:42 PM
I'm agnostic, I'm not a big fan of the gay agenda - its not conducive to creating the society I want to live in.

momofo
08-26-2009, 04:42 PM
Question to all theists:
Without using some variation of the phrase "because God says so", explain to me why sex and homosexuality are bad.

They won't be able to. Their whole argument basically can be summed up as:
"Some guy a couple of thousand years ago wrote down that a God told him that homosexuality is wrong." Make of that what you will...

There are currently 6 states in the US that have legalized gay marriage and whole countries have done so -- where are the negative effects? (hint hint: none have been found ;) ).

LordDarwin
08-26-2009, 04:43 PM
Yeah, reading this mntbikedude, I don't know how you deal with that.

...It's pretty clear what the Bible says on homosexuality. Why believe in a religion which preaches hate against what you are? Are you going to repent of being who you are before you die so you can get into heaven? Providing you believe all that malarky.

If I were gay and Christian... I'd become an Atheist.

powerman2000
08-26-2009, 04:45 PM
I'm going to go ahead and call BS on that. You cannot possibly respect his lifestyle (I'm sorry, his "opinion") if you equate being gay with cheating or being an alcoholic. Good point though, fatties are sinners too. I forgot that part.

Being gay is only a "struggle" because people like you insist on persecuting that lifestyle.



Ok, some things really need to be cleared up here.

Adultery: "extramarital sex that willfully and maliciously interferes with marriage relations"
Homosexuality: "a sexual attraction to (or sexual relations with) persons of the same sex"
Note: I do not consider still finding other people attractive while you are in a committed relationship adultery. As long as you can look back at your partner and still think that they are more attractive and you prefer them, then you're being perfectly loyal. I do think that watching porn while you are in a committed relationship is wrong though- assuming of course that your relationship has reached the sexual stage. Nothing wrong with porn on the whole though, although I personally feel like I have grown out of it. Memory is much better. Secondly, by comparing to them to adulterers you are treating them differently. Stop lying to us and yourself.


You are a 19 year old male who has been bullied into thinking that having fantasies about women is horrible. It is impossible to commit adultery if you
a. Are not married
b. Have never got beyond the "fantasies" stage

Lust is a perfectly natural feeling to have as soon as you're over the age of 10. Only religion attaches a negative connotation to it. As long as it is consenting (and hopefully protected) sex there is absolutely no reason to frown on it or feel guilty.


Question to all theists:
Without using some variation of the phrase "because God says so", explain to me why sex and homosexuality are bad.
All I can say is that you have a lot to learn.

Here's just a few examples:

1. I can, as a married man, commit adultery in my heart. (don't suppose you'll understand that one)

2. And this is a biggy so pay close attention. No one said sex is bad.

But look at how foolish I am trying to have a discussion like this with a male teenager.

LordDarwin
08-26-2009, 04:45 PM
I'm agnostic, I'm not a big fan of the gay agenda - its not conducive to creating the society I want to live in.
You're not agnostic. Agnosticism is a state of knowledge. Everyone in relation to there being/not being a god, is agnostic.

You're either Atheist, or Theist. You believe or you don't. ...Or maybe you're a Deist?

powerman2000
08-26-2009, 04:48 PM
That's all anyone can do. Getting into a culture war over it is just plain stupid. In the end, we're all just humans trying to grab as much happiness as we can while we can.

Agreed.

Skettch
08-26-2009, 04:49 PM
You're not agnostic. Agnosticism is a state of knowledge. Everyone in relation to there being/not being a god, is agnostic.

You're either Atheist, or Theist. You believe or you don't. ...Or maybe you're a Deist?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agnostic


one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

SDMuscleBuddy
08-26-2009, 04:50 PM
Yeah, reading this mntbikedude, I don't know how you deal with that.

...It's pretty clear what the Bible says on homosexuality. Why believe in a religion which preaches hate against what you are? Are you going to repent of being who you are before you die so you can get into heaven? Providing you believe all that malarky.

If I were gay and Christian... I'd become an Atheist.

I think I know what MBD will say, but I'll say that the current, and popular, interpretation of the Bible is wrong and what it does to gay youths in this country is a tragedy. There is nothing you can tell me that can convince me that this is what the Christian God had in mind.

Fitzwell
08-26-2009, 04:50 PM
I'm going to go ahead and call BS on that. You cannot possibly respect his lifestyle (I'm sorry, his "opinion") if you equate being gay with cheating or being an alcoholic. Good point though, fatties are sinners too. I forgot that part.

Being gay is only a "struggle" because people like you insist on persecuting that lifestyle.



Ok, some things really need to be cleared up here.

Adultery: "extramarital sex that willfully and maliciously interferes with marriage relations"
Homosexuality: "a sexual attraction to (or sexual relations with) persons of the same sex"
Note: I do not consider still finding other people attractive while you are in a committed relationship adultery. As long as you can look back at your partner and still think that they are more attractive and you prefer them, then you're being perfectly loyal. I do think that watching porn while you are in a committed relationship is wrong though- assuming of course that your relationship has reached the sexual stage. Nothing wrong with porn on the whole though, although I personally feel like I have grown out of it. Memory is much better. Secondly, by comparing to them to adulterers you are treating them differently. Stop lying to us and yourself.


You are a 19 year old male who has been bullied into thinking that having fantasies about women is horrible. It is impossible to commit adultery if you
a. Are not married
b. Have never got beyond the "fantasies" stage

Lust is a perfectly natural feeling to have as soon as you're over the age of 10. Only religion attaches a negative connotation to it. As long as it is consenting (and hopefully protected) sex there is absolutely no reason to frown on it or feel guilty.


Question to all theists:
Without using some variation of the phrase "because God says so", explain to me why sex and homosexuality are bad.

Being gay is a struggle because it goes against nature. Men are born attracted to women and vice versa. This is why many atheists, taking God and religion completely out of the picture, are also against gay marriage.

And just because someone doesn't believe in gay marriage, doesn't mean they persecute those who have chosen that lifestyle. I disagree with it, but I do not hate homosexuals or feel the need to condemn them.

LordDarwin
08-26-2009, 04:51 PM
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agnostic
Agreed.

However, I'm sure you have at least some opinion on whether Theistic religions are true?

Do you believe Jesus existed, or was even the son/is God?

shark2492
08-26-2009, 04:52 PM
You are a 19 year old male who has been bullied into thinking that having fantasies about women is horrible. It is impossible to commit adultery if you
a. Are not married
b. Have never got beyond the "fantasies" stage

Lust is a perfectly natural feeling to have as soon as you're over the age of 10. Only religion attaches a negative connotation to it. As long as it is consenting (and hopefully protected) sex there is absolutely no reason to frown on it or feel guilty.


Question to all theists:
Without using some variation of the phrase "because God says so", explain to me why sex and homosexuality are bad.

Okay, hang on bud. You hit a rough spot. I havent been "bullied" into anything. I speak and think for myself. If I didnt, would I admit that my opinion on homosexuality and porn (christiality in general) differ from most in a thread full of extremely devout christians? Its not because my sunday school preacher told me porn is bad that i feel the way I do about it. Its my own hearts belief. And if I told this thread half of my faults, Id end up scored on the atheist side. And as for the question: i mentioned before - some of us christians vary in opinion on things like homosexuality and sex.

mntbikedude
08-26-2009, 04:54 PM
Yeah, reading this mntbikedude, I don't know how you deal with that.

...It's pretty clear what the Bible says on homosexuality. Why believe in a religion which preaches hate against what you are? Are you going to repent of being who you are before you die so you can get into heaven? Providing you believe all that malarky.

If I were gay and Christian... I'd become an Atheist.

Well for the most part I have come to the conclusion that I can't trust any religion to make decisions for me or tell me what to do. In a lot of ways I identify with athiests. However I have had too many things happen to me that make me unwilling to to say that I don't believe in God. But I also acknowledge that there could easily be nothing after this life.

I think the bible has a lot of good truths but any real study of religious texts are shown to have some serious holes, enough that it is impossible to trust them 100%. That does not stop me from gaining incite from them.

If there does turn out to be an afterlife, I'm not worried about it. If there is a God then no one would know better how hard I tried to not be gay. I have tried my best to be a good person, a good husband and a good father. It's taught me so many things.

And finally after so many many years I have finally accepted who I am, I finally can honestly say that I like who I am, I like being gay it's who I am.

NOTE: although I am undecided about God I feel strongly about keeping my same moral values. I live them because they make me happy not because I am get some reward in some afterlife.

momofo
08-26-2009, 04:54 PM
I think I know what MBD will say, but I'll say that the current, and popular, interpretation of the Bible is wrong and what it does to gay youths in this country is a tragedy. There is nothing you can tell me that can convince me that this is what the Christian God had in mind.

Homosexuality is against Mosaic Law, and Jesus claimed to fulfill Mosaic Law without abolishing it. Paul then spoke out against homosexuality. Christian Scripture forbids homosexuality, from it's Jewish roots to it's own inception. A gay Christian is an oxymoron scripturally.

shark2492
08-26-2009, 04:56 PM
All I can say is that you have a lot to learn.

Here's just a few examples:

1. I can, as a married man, commit adultery in my heart. (don't suppose you'll understand that one)

2. And this is a biggy so pay close attention. No one said sex is bad.

But look at how foolish I am trying to have a discussion like this with a male teenager.

If you dont mind me sayin, having a discussion like this with a teenager is the best thing you could possibly do. I, as a younger person, am interested in what you have to share. Youre more experienced than i am and you have a lot to teach. Thats why im in here.

mntbikedude
08-26-2009, 04:58 PM
Homosexuality is against Mosaic Law, and Jesus claimed to fulfill Mosaic Law without abolishing it. Paul then spoke out against homosexuality. Christian Scripture forbids homosexuality, from it's Jewish roots to it's own inception. A gay Christian is an oxymoron scripturally.

Jesus himself never spoke against homosexuality. The fact Paul spoke against it simply proves that men had agendas then just like they do now. He also spoke against praying in church.

x_aDrenaLine_x
08-26-2009, 04:58 PM
I'm going to go ahead and call BS on that. You cannot possibly respect his lifestyle (I'm sorry, his "opinion") if you equate being gay with cheating or being an alcoholic. Good point though, fatties are sinners too. I forgot that part.

Being gay is only a "struggle" because people like you insist on persecuting that lifestyle.

I respect him. He is one of God's children just as we all are. Even though you may not agree with my beliefs I consider all of you my brothers. I love him just as I love you. You can say that I am delusional for saying that but that's how I view this world. We are all sinners and not worthy of God's ultimate sacrifice for OUR sins. We all have an area we are struggling with, and if I were to say that I am not I would be lying. I am not persecuting his lifestyle and no one should be. It is up to the man himself to see if the lifestyle (sexuality) he is leading is in tune with what God would want us to live. I am not to judge anyone only God is. I base my life and my beliefs on the Bible because I believe it to be God's word. You don't so you view the world different than me, but to label me as someone who hates gays is VERY wrong.

momofo
08-26-2009, 05:01 PM
Jesus himself never spoke agains homosexuality. The fact Paul spoke against it simply proves that men had agendas then just like they do now. He also spoke against praying in church.

Jesus came "to fulfill the Mosaic Law, not abolish it". Mosaic Law forbids homosexuality. It was part of his religious culture and remained unbroken from the time of the Tribes up to the founding of the Rock. You're right, he never said anything explicitly about homosexuality but his implication was as such through his relation to Jewish Law.

JAGERBOY
08-26-2009, 05:02 PM
That is not to say that marriage cannot work, but generally the idea of 2 people swearing oaths to one another & then living the rest of their lives without giving in to temptation is unrealistic for most people.

It seems as if you are purposely avoiding answering my question. I've asked you point blank at least 3 times now to give a good secular reason and you won't. Why is that?

powerman2000
08-26-2009, 05:04 PM
If you dont mind me sayin, having a discussion like this with a teenager is the best thing you could possibly do. I, as a younger person, am interested in what you have to share. Youre more experienced than i am and you have a lot to teach. Thats why im in here.

You must realize that you are the exception. It's a cliche', but it's also true that the majority of teenagers think they already know everything and that older adults are complete morons not worthy of their attention.

powerman2000
08-26-2009, 05:05 PM
jesus came "to fulfill the mosaic law, not abolish it". Mosaic law forbids homosexuality. It was part of his religious culture and remained unbroken from the time of the tribes up to the founding of the rock. You're right, he never said anything explicitly about homosexuality but his implication was as such through his relation to jewish law.

bingo!

momofo
08-26-2009, 05:06 PM
It seems as if you are purposely avoiding answering my question. I've asked you point blank at least 3 times now to give a good secular reason and you won't. Why is that?

Because there is none. Sorry to butt in, but it's true.

LordDarwin
08-26-2009, 05:07 PM
Well for the most part I have come to the conclusion that I can't trust any religion to make decisions for me or tell me what to do. In a lot of ways I identify with athiests. I have had too many things happen to me that I am willing to say that I don't believe in God. But I also acknowledge that there could easily be nothing after this life.

I think the bible has a lot of good truths but any serious study of any religious texts have some serious holes in being able to trust them 100%.

If there does turn out to be an afterlife, I'm not worried about it. If there is a God then no one would no better how hard I tried to not be gay. I have tried my best to be a good person, a good husband and a good father. It's taught me so many things.

And finally after so many many years I have finally accepted who I am, I finally can honestly say that I like who I am, I like being gay it's who I am.

NOTE: although I am undecided about God I feel strongly about keeping my same moral values. I live them because they make me happy not because I am get some reward in some afterlife.
Well it's good to hear that you've come to accept yourself as you are. Even though I'm an Atheist, I could hardly imagine Jesus preaching against homosexuality, the Bible is so obviously written in many respects to support the writers opinions at the time.

It's a pity that so many people have to lead double lives, and even get sent to centers that supposedly "make you straight!"

OddLawnGnome
08-26-2009, 05:11 PM
All I can say is that you have a lot to learn.

Here's just a few examples:

1. I can, as a married man, commit adultery in my heart. (don't suppose you'll understand that one)

2. And this is a biggy so pay close attention. No one said sex is bad.

But look at how foolish I am trying to have a discussion like this with a male teenager.

Sure it's possible to be disloyal in your mind. In that case I would encourage you to find a more attractive spouse who you connect with better. I simply said there is nothing wrong about finding someone else attractive, as long as its a passing thought. When that happens to me I just look back at my girlfriend and it ends up reinforcing the fact I already have the best of the bunch.

Sex without trying to "begat" (as the Bible calls it) someone is lust. The only other reason for sex is pleasure and/or intimacy. Last time I checked, Christianity frowns on extramarital sex. Pray tell, is losing your virginity at age 25 (or whenever you got married) really as much fun as God says it is?

But look as how foolish I am, trying to have a discussion like this with a sexually repressed Christian. (oh SNAP!)

Also, please answer the bolded question.

OddLawnGnome
08-26-2009, 05:22 PM
Okay, hang on bud. You hit a rough spot. I havent been "bullied" into anything. I speak and think for myself. If I didnt, would I admit that my opinion on homosexuality and porn (christiality in general) differ from most in a thread full of extremely devout christians? Its not because my sunday school preacher told me porn is bad that i feel the way I do about it. Its my own hearts belief. And if I told this thread half of my faults, Id end up scored on the atheist side. And as for the question: i mentioned before - some of us christians vary in opinion on things like homosexuality and sex.

Not talking about porn or homosexuality. I was referring to you being taught that lust is wrong. Lust is natural, just like it is for other animals (yes, you are an animal) such as dolphins and monkeys. Porn, no matter how sparingly you watch it, always leaves a bit of a weird feeling. That's normal. Real sex does not. If you already identify with atheists so much, then what exactly is holding you to be a Christian? All I see is self-abuse here.


Being gay is a struggle because it goes against nature. Men are born attracted to women and vice versa. This is why many atheists, taking God and religion completely out of the picture, are also against gay marriage.

And just because someone doesn't believe in gay marriage, doesn't mean they persecute those who have chosen that lifestyle. I disagree with it, but I do not hate homosexuals or feel the need to condemn them.

If you don't acknowledge the right of gay couples to be married then you are part of the persecution.
Being gay is not a choice.
Being straight is not a choice.

Who you like is the result of the way your brain is wired.

JAGERBOY
08-26-2009, 05:26 PM
Being gay is a struggle because it goes against nature. Men are born attracted to women and vice versa. This is why many atheists, taking God and religion completely out of the picture, are also against gay marriage.

And just because someone doesn't believe in gay marriage, doesn't mean they persecute those who have chosen that lifestyle. I disagree with it, but I do not hate homosexuals or feel the need to condemn them.

No thats not at all why its a struggle. It does not go against nature, because we see it in other species in nature as well. Gay men/women are born gay, they don't choose to be gay and then deal with the "struggle" of their "natural" urge to like the opposite sex. Its actually quite the opposite. They try to fit in due to religion telling them they shouldn't do it, so they struggle to be STRAIGHT, not the other way around.

powerman2000
08-26-2009, 05:41 PM
It does not go against nature, because we see it in other species in nature as well.

It goes against 'human' nature. The reasons for that behavior in the animal kingdom are vastly different than from humans.

OddLawnGnome
08-26-2009, 05:43 PM
It goes against 'human' nature. The reasons for that behavior in the animal kingdom are vastly different than from humans.

Sorry to burst your bubble, Mr. Special Snowflake, but humans are animals too.

JAGERBOY
08-26-2009, 05:44 PM
It goes against 'human' nature. The reasons for that behavior in the animal kingdom are vastly different than from humans.

What does natural mean, lets start there.


P.S. Humans are part of the animal kingdom, bub.

Irezumi
08-26-2009, 05:45 PM
Because I don't follow a masochist "god" that condemns good people to hell for being born a certain way.

chris2489
08-26-2009, 05:56 PM
I don't support it, I'm just indifferent to it. If your not gay it shouldn't matter to you. The problem is people think there beliefs are truth instead of just realizing that it's just a belief that only exist because you allow it. So, what they do is attack any belief that isn't there own in order to reinforce there belief to themselves.

VAPlowhorse
08-26-2009, 05:57 PM
I shouldn't have to ask for your permission or societies if I want to marry another man.


Yes, you do, if that means having equal legal status as a hetero married couple. IMO

What gives you that right? Are you an elected official in charge of marriage, or are legal rights based on popular consensus?

shark2492
08-26-2009, 06:04 PM
Not talking about porn or homosexuality. I was referring to you being taught that lust is wrong. Lust is natural, just like it is for other animals (yes, you are an animal) such as dolphins and monkeys. Porn, no matter how sparingly you watch it, always leaves a bit of a weird feeling. That's normal. Real sex does not. If you already identify with atheists so much, then what exactly is holding you to be a Christian? All I see is self-abuse here.



If you don't acknowledge the right of gay couples to be married then you are part of the persecution.
Being gay is not a choice.
Being straight is not a choice.

Who you like is the result of the way your brain is wired.

Okay, need reword: i havent been bullied into beliefs concerning lust. I figured my point would get across. Lust is natural, very natural. I never doubted this. Lust is, sex is, it all is. I can identify with atheists because Ive had my spirituality shaken to an extreme. I classify as a christian because I cant come to the conclusion that my God doesnt exist. I feel the presence too much. Its who i am and what i believe. My choice

SDMuscleBuddy
08-26-2009, 06:22 PM
It goes against 'human' nature. The reasons for that behavior in the animal kingdom are vastly different than from humans.

If it goes against human nature, why is it that there are known homosexuals throughout history? Why is it that homosexuals exist in every single culture, race, and religion, and in every corner of the globe, even where it is thought so heinous that execution is considered the only way to protect society? Why is it that the percentage of the population that is gay has been pretty consistent through time? Why is it that there is no single factor outside of human nature that anyone can point to and say, "That is why people are gay"?

Does being left-handed go against human nature?

Enso
08-26-2009, 07:46 PM
Marriage is a religious concept so I don't think gays should get married. This is coming from an atheist. I'm a Buddhist and marriage has nothing to do with my religion and I don't plan on getting married. (no homo)

You must not be familiar with Buddhist priests marrying homosexuals (look up Roshi Robert Aitken). And marriage is a part of Buddhism, though it doesn't demand people get married per se (it's kept mostly secular, though there are ceremonies for it). Marriage is tied into the precept of not committing sexual misconduct, though there are allot of folks who try to make out the fact that since it doesn't spell out marriage literally in the precepts to run with it and say marriage is not important (though it is referenced as in the language 'committed to a loving, long term, relationship).

By the way, when you say you are Buddhist...what do you mean? Have you been given a dharma name and gone through the ceremony?

Nitric Oxide
08-26-2009, 08:11 PM
I'm not pro-religion, but I am anti-atheist. Ultimately I'm pro-open minded.


Anyways, this thread was a legit score for the anti-atheists despite the huge fallacy lol. I laughed at title.

meing0tt
08-26-2009, 09:09 PM
Atheists are more intelligent/educated on average and intelligent/educated people tend to be liberal (serious)

lightningwatche
08-26-2009, 09:11 PM
It seems when the gay marriage topic comes up, most atheists are on the side that agrees it should be allowed. Is this because all atheists are closet homosexuals? I think there is a correlation here.

The reason atheists support gay marriage is because we do not base all our beliefs on the bible. Christians believe anything if it is in the bible. That is the only reason they are against gays.

lightningwatche
08-26-2009, 09:12 PM
Atheists are more intelligent/educated on average and intelligent/educated people tend to be liberal (serious)

Socially liberal. Not fiscally liberal.

shark2492
08-26-2009, 09:17 PM
Atheists are more intelligent/educated on average and intelligent/educated people tend to be liberal (serious)

But then theres those of us that take on the mission of understanding. Some christians dont like exploring science because they feel they dont need to (or they may be afraid to). I understand you, Im just saying that there are christians like myself who question the world they live in as much if not more than some atheists. Christians being generalized as less educated is unfair as christians themselves vary a tremendous amount.


The reason atheists support gay marriage is because we do not base all our beliefs on the bible. Christians believe anything if it is in the bible. That is the only reason they are against gays.

Respectfully disagree

ONtop888
08-26-2009, 09:19 PM
IDK, your an atheist, why don't you tell us?

lol this

JAGERBOY
08-27-2009, 07:32 AM
IDK, your an atheist, why don't you tell us?


lol this

Irony?

JAGERBOY
08-27-2009, 07:33 AM
I'm not pro-religion, but I am anti-atheist. Ultimately I'm pro-open minded.


Anyways, this thread was a legit score for the anti-atheists despite the huge fallacy lol. I laughed at title.

What does it mean to be "anti-atheist"?

LordDarwin
08-27-2009, 07:34 AM
Irony?
Satire and irony, one thing that a lot of people don't seem to get.

Thinman
08-27-2009, 07:36 AM
If it goes against human nature, why is it that there are known homosexuals throughout history? Why is it that homosexuals exist in every single culture, race, and religion, and in every corner of the globe, even where it is thought so heinous that execution is considered the only way to protect society? Why is it that the percentage of the population that is gay has been pretty consistent through time? Why is it that there is no single factor outside of human nature that anyone can point to and say, "That is why people are gay"?

Does being left-handed go against human nature?

At one time, being left handed was thought to be the work of the devil. Left handed children were forced to use their right hand.

SDMuscleBuddy
08-27-2009, 07:44 AM
At one time, being left handed was thought to be the work of the devil. Left handed children were forced to use their right hand.

Sometimes, just for variety, I'll use my left hand, but later I feel guilty like I cheated on the right.

drizzt45
08-27-2009, 08:08 AM
The only justifiable reason any religious person is against gays is because their god told them so. Other than that there is no reason to be against gays. What a gay person does in his or her home is none of my business so let them do whatever they want. If marriage is the case then let them have it.

jimbob007
08-27-2009, 08:16 AM
Ot that many 'religious people' actually hide behind religion to air their bigoted views on others- whether it be gays, blacks, jews, women priests etc.

No better defence for airing these views than the luxury of saying well look what it says in this worldwide mass accepted book & getting away with it, whereas somebody who says the same things but does not use the bible says excuse will be arrested.



The only justifiable reason any religious person is against gays is because their god told them so. Other than that there is no reason to be against gays. What a gay person does in his or her home is none of my business so let them do whatever they want. If marriage is the case then let them have it.

Nitric Oxide
08-27-2009, 09:05 AM
What does it mean to be "anti-atheist"?

it's self explanatory, what you probably meant to ask is how I logically arrived at my position. Since I said I'm NOT pro-religion but I AM anti-atheist, that leaves a fault in logic, or so it appears. How can I conclude both statements?

It depends, maybe I'm not anti-atheist and I just didn't think my statement through. Here's a question though,

do atheists get offended by people who believe in god? Now vice versa, do religions get offended by atheists? Which group is offended more under what scenario? I would say atheists tend to be more offensive people. You don't have to believe in god but it's also pretty rude to bash religions. I don't know why people insist on reciting their beliefs as facts. That's why I don't like atheists.

JAGERBOY
08-27-2009, 09:30 AM
it's self explanatory, what you probably meant to ask is how I logically arrived at my position. Since I said I'm NOT pro-religion but I AM anti-atheist, that leaves a fault in logic, or so it appears. How can I conclude both statements?

It depends, maybe I'm not anti-atheist and I just didn't think my statement through. Here's a question though,

do atheists get offended by people who believe in god? Now vice versa, do religions get offended by atheists? Which group is offended more under what scenario? I would say atheists tend to be more offensive people. You don't have to believe in god but it's also pretty rude to bash religions. I don't know why people insist on reciting their beliefs as facts. That's why I don't like atheists.

In order for your statements to be true...

All atheists would need to be offensive people.
All atheists would need to "recite their beliefs as facts"

Since neither of those are true, your statements are false and again, make no sense as per my original question.

Also, if you don't like people who recite their beliefs as facts, you should be WAY MORE anti-THEIST than anti-atheist. Why? Because theists have many more beliefs that they assert as fact, atheists really only have one. Also, most atheists leave the possiblility open they could be wrong, they don't state as fact that a god does not exist. But, on the other side of the coin, most theists do state as fact that a god exists and leave absolutely no room open that they could be wrong.

Seems like you need to re-think your positions as they don't mesh well with reality.

belairdfence99
08-27-2009, 09:38 AM
The only way to make a baby is a daddy and a mommy. So........why is there any other types of marriage?

JAGERBOY
08-27-2009, 09:45 AM
The only way to make a baby is a daddy and a mommy. So........why is there any other types of marriage?

Once again marriage =/= having children

Blindead
08-27-2009, 09:52 AM
Because I don't let badly written books dictate my beliefs? Because I am not a hateful piece of ****? I dunno. Purple! Ritz crackers!

Nitric Oxide
08-27-2009, 10:05 AM
In order for your statements to be true...

All atheists would need to be offensive people.
All atheists would need to "recite their beliefs as facts"

Since neither of those are true, your statements are false and again, make no sense as per my original question.

Also, if you don't like people who recite their beliefs as facts, you should be WAY MORE anti-THEIST than anti-atheist. Why? Because theists have many more beliefs that they assert as fact, atheists really only have one. Also, most atheists leave the possiblility open they could be wrong, they don't state as fact that a god does not exist. But, on the other side of the coin, most theists do state as fact that a god exists and leave absolutely no room open that they could be wrong.

Seems like you need to re-think your positions as they don't mesh well with reality.

u mad lol?

The rationality of atheism is to prove religion wrong. Or is that not true? How would you be an atheist but yet believe in religion at the same time? Is that possible? Can we legitimately conclude that atheists are by default saying religion is wrong?

The probability of determining whether or not god exists is undefined. Therefore it would be completely foolish to try and convince people that a god exists or doesn't exist. Essentially you're speculating on a subject with unknown and unimaginable circumstances. Furthermore, since atheism states there isn't a god, you're automatically taking a stance on the subject .You can just be happy with your beliefs but I wouldn't try to convince other people lol.


Or you can just say you don't know, which is NOT the same as atheism.

Blindead
08-27-2009, 10:08 AM
Atheism does not state that there is no god, it is a lack of belief in a god. Gnostic atheism states that there is no god and that one does not believe in it.

Nitric Oxide
08-27-2009, 10:09 AM
Atheism does not state that there is no god, it is a lack of belief in a god. Gnostic atheism states that there is no god and that one does not believe in it.

ok, but you're still speculating on an unknown event. It's completely illogical.


you have a lack of belief in a god? How? How can you arrive at that conclusion? You obviously must have some rationality right? Tell me why you think that.


I'll just give you a heads up and tell that regardless of your answer, it's irrelevant. The subject is completely incomputable but yet you're trying to compute it? Makes no sense. Just admit you don't know and cannot know.

BigTimexXx
08-27-2009, 10:11 AM
The rationality of atheism is to prove religion wrong. Or is that not true?

No it is not.


Furthermore, since atheism states there isn't a god, you're automatically taking a stance on the subject.

No "athiesm" does not.



Or you can just say you don't know, which is NOT the same as atheism.

Yes it is. (don't get into this - you're playing a game of semantics)

Nitric Oxide
08-27-2009, 10:13 AM
No it is not.



No "athiesm" does not.




Yes it is. (don't get into this - you're playing a game of semantics)

let me explain it like this.

you have a stance and therefore you are wrong. The best stance is no stance and to admit you know nothing.


you either do believe in god, or you don't believe in god....regardless of which, you're wrong. The situation is 100% speculation but yet you seem to be so sure of your position? How is that possible?

BigTimexXx
08-27-2009, 10:15 AM
let me explain it like this.

you have a stance and therefore you are wrong. The best stance is no stance and to admit you know nothing.

Lol.

Just to save my time typing:

http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/agnovsath.html

BigTimexXx
08-27-2009, 10:17 AM
you either do believe in god, or you don't believe in god....regardless of which, you're wrong. The situation is 100% speculation but yet you seem to be so sure of your position? How is that possible?

Belief=/=knowledge.

I don't know what you're talking about with this "so sure of my position" talk.

Blindead
08-27-2009, 10:20 AM
Wow, strong angry agnostic up in this hizzle! You're worse than the Christians on here!

Nitric Oxide
08-27-2009, 10:28 AM
Lol.

Just to save my time typing:

http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/agnovsath.html

lol wat? this guy is a clown. He might be informative, but he's also irrational.


With knowledge, a person either (i) knows there is one or more god or (ii) does not know whether or not there is one or more gods.

lol no, I happen to say that I don't know. That's different then saying there is a god and there isn't a god... lol????



Agnosticism is not a third option to theism or atheism; it is a type of theist or atheist.

I'm so glad this guy is a psychologist lol. He's saying, by default you must have an opinion on every subject. Even an opinion on an undefined situation, undefined meaning zero insight to a conclusion. The fact that the situation of determining whether or not a god exists is not fathomable leaves you by default with no opinion.

Nitric Oxide
08-27-2009, 10:35 AM
Belief=/=knowledge.

I don't know what you're talking about with this "so sure of my position" talk.

There's no such thing as knowledge when speaking of god's existence. You're still trying to use "knowledge" as to whether or not god exists. You're trying to use your "knowledge" as rationality to give the best judgment of the situation. You can't do that. The situation is incomputable, unthinkable, unimaginable, irrational, indescribable. Everything you know is irrelevant, it would not apply to a concept of a god. What do you know? the rules of our universe? What if god created the universe? Concepts such as time, space and matter are definitions we use to describe our universe. What if god exists in a domain in which there's no such thing as time or space or ANYTHING you know. All that you know does not apply to the concept of a god. You have absolutely zero ability to comprehend the unimaginable circumstances of whether or not god exists. Therefore you do not know.... and no lol, you don't by default choose theism or atheism which that dude is trying to imply. Agnosticism is a separate concept with AND without overlap into theism and atheism.

JAGERBOY
08-27-2009, 11:07 AM
u mad lol?

The rationality of atheism is to prove religion wrong. Or is that not true? How would you be an atheist but yet believe in religion at the same time? Is that possible? Can we legitimately conclude that atheists are by default saying religion is wrong?

The probability of determining whether or not god exists is undefined. Therefore it would be completely foolish to try and convince people that a god exists or doesn't exist. Essentially you're speculating on a subject with unknown and unimaginable circumstances. Furthermore, since atheism states there isn't a god, you're automatically taking a stance on the subject .You can just be happy with your beliefs but I wouldn't try to convince other people lol.Atheism is the lack of belief in a god, thats it. It is not the campaign to disprove religion. I would agree, that, by default, that it does mean you would also lack belief in any religion dealing with a god or gods. However, as I already stated, most atheists generally don't like to speak in absolutes unlike their their theistic counterparts. So if your main basis for being "anti" atheist is because we recite our beliefs as facts, then you should be anti-anti-anti theist, since they take that to a whole new level.

Nitric Oxide
08-27-2009, 11:23 AM
Atheism is the lack of belief in a god, thats it. It is not the campaign to disprove religion. I would agree, that, by default, that it does mean you would also lack belief in any religion dealing with a god or gods. However, as I already stated, most atheists generally don't like to speak in absolutes unlike their their theistic counterparts. So if your main basis for being "anti" atheist is because we recite our beliefs as facts, then you should be anti-anti-anti theist, since they take that to a whole new level.

but what I'm saying is, how do you conclude a lack of belief in god? Like what criteria do you use to determine that? What's the rationality?


This might sound far out but can you imagine an alternate definition to existence? The universe as we know it defines what we believe is existence. Everything we know only applies to our universe. What encapsulates the universe though? Just as we have planets in a solar system, which is in a galaxy, which is in a universe.... but then you must ask what comes next? It's impossible to define the ending of existence. If existence is infinite, then so is knowledge and concepts which in return makes are understanding of god to be zero at all times. Therefore "I think he does, or doesn't exist... I believe he does or doesn't exist" is irrelevant. You cannot possibly know.

What is god?
Is it a person?
is it tangible?
What if the concept of tangible does not apply to gods dimension?
Is it a conscious being? Did it create mankind's existence purposely or accidentally?
Is god a concept or a being?
Is god a solid, a liquid or a gas? What if there's no such thing as solid, liquid or gas in god's realm.
The possibilities are endless, they're beyond the beyond.
What if god IS the universe?
What if god is the encapsulation that surrounds the universe?

Going back to the question of defining an alternate universe or concept of existence... it's impossible. Do you know why? Everything you know is based on the universe that we know, but everything you know does not apply outside of the universe.... where a god may exist. Think about this real hard... defining god's realm is essentially trying to imagine the unimaginable. Any idea or description of god's realm is derived from what you know here. It does not apply to where god may reside.

Do you see what I'm trying to say? I can't emphasize enough how far god's existence is beyond our comprehension. That's why any opinion is illogical to me. By having an opinion is the same thing as saying you know lol.

BullByTheHorns
08-27-2009, 11:27 AM
Why does it seem that some catholic priests are ****philia ***gots?

Strong God you have dar... rofl.

LordDarwin
08-27-2009, 11:33 AM
but what I'm saying is, how do you conclude a lack of belief in god? Like what criteria do you use to determine that? What's the rationality?


This might sound far out but can you imagine an alternate definition to existence? The universe as we know it defines what we believe is existence. Everything we know only applies to our universe. What encapsulates the universe though? Just as we have planets in a solar system, which is in a galaxy, which is in a universe.... but then you must ask what comes next? It's impossible to define the ending of existence. If existence is infinite, then so is knowledge and concepts which in return makes are understanding of god to be zero at all times. Therefore "I think he does, or doesn't exist... I believe he does or doesn't exist" is irrelevant. You cannot possibly know.

What is god?
Is it a person?
is it tangible?
What if the concept of tangible does not apply to gods dimension?
Is it a conscious being? Did it create mankind's existence purposely or accidentally?
Is god a concept or a being?
Is god a solid, a liquid or a gas? What if there's no such thing as solid, liquid or gas in god's realm.
The possibilities are endless, they're beyond the beyond.
What if god IS the universe?
What if god is the encapsulation that surrounds the universe?

Going back to the question of defining an alternate universe or concept of existence... it's impossible. Do you know why? Everything you know is based on the universe that we know, but everything you know does not apply outside of the universe.... where a god may exist. Think about this real hard... defining god's realm is essentially trying to imagine the unimaginable. Any idea or description of god's realm is derived from what you know here. It does not apply to where god may reside.

Do you see what I'm trying to say? I can't emphasize enough how far god's existence is beyond our comprehension. That's why any opinion is illogical to me. By having an opinion is the same thing as saying you know lol.
Atheism is a lack of belief in Theistic gods, not a possible unknown 'god.'

Nitric Oxide
08-27-2009, 11:37 AM
Atheism is a lack of belief in Theistic gods, not a possible unknown 'god.'


but you're using rationality to come to that conclusion.

That statement contradicts

"all that you know is irrelevant"


if it's irrelevant, then why are you still using it?


Do you get what I'm saying? You cannot possibly have ANY opinion or stance whatsoever besides the fact that you do not know.

Not knowing is different than saying you do not believe. If you don't believe, you obviously must think you know something to arrive at that conclusion.

JAGERBOY
08-27-2009, 11:44 AM
but what I'm saying is, how do you conclude a lack of belief in god? Like what criteria do you use to determine that? What's the rationality?The rationality is, I tend not to believe in things to which there is no evidence or observationality of said entity. As already stated, I leave the possibilty open, but I lean more towards the likelyhood of one not existing which is why I don't stop at your position of "I don't know". My position is more "I can't truly know but I very highly doubt it". This is why I am what is known as an atheist agnostic, which most atheists are.



This might sound far out but can you imagine an alternate definition to existence? The universe as we know it defines what we believe is existence. Everything we know only applies to our universe. What encapsulates the universe though? Just as we have planets in a solar system, which is in a galaxy, which is in a universe.... but then you must ask what comes next? It's impossible to define the ending of existence. If existence is infinite, then so is knowledge and concepts which in return makes are understanding of god to be zero at all times. Therefore "I think he does, or doesn't exist... I believe he does or doesn't exist" is irrelevant. You cannot possibly know.You keep mixing up knowledge and beliefs. Most atheists are not saying they "know" anything, we are talking about what we believe. It is the THEIST who claims to absolutely know certain things. It doesn't matter if they actually do know, it only matters that in their own mind they think they know.


What is god?
Is it a person?
is it tangible?
What if the concept of tangible does not apply to gods dimension?
Is it a conscious being? Did it create mankind's existence purposely or accidentally?
Is god a concept or a being?
Is god a solid, a liquid or a gas? What if there's no such thing as solid, liquid or gas in god's realm.
The possibilities are endless, they're beyond the beyond.
What if god IS the universe?
What if god is the encapsulation that surrounds the universe?

Going back to the question of defining an alternate universe or concept of existence... it's impossible. Do you know why? Everything you know is based on the universe that we know, but everything you know does not apply outside of the universe.... where a god may exist. Think about this real hard... defining god's realm is essentially trying to imagine the unimaginable. Any idea or description of god's realm is derived from what you know here. It does not apply to where god may reside.

Do you see what I'm trying to say? I can't emphasize enough how far god's existence is beyond our comprehension. That's why any opinion is illogical to me. By having an opinion is the same thing as saying you know lol.
But you have to jump to the conclusion that there actually is an "outside the universe". There could be, but until we see evidence of this, that concept holds just as much water as the god concept.


Just because something could be true, does not mean it is likely to be true. Nor does it mean you can't make judgements to its likelyhood to exist.

LordDarwin
08-27-2009, 11:48 AM
but you're using rationality to come to that conclusion.

That statement contradicts

"all that you know is irrelevant"


if it's irrelevant, then why are you still using it?


Do you get what I'm saying? You cannot possibly have ANY opinion or stance whatsoever besides the fact that you do not know.

Not knowing is different than saying you do not believe. If you don't believe, you obviously must think you know something to arrive at that conclusion.

Yes, based on the laws of the universe as we know them today & modern science I can deduce using my powers of reason, that all Theistic religions and mytholigies are most likely not true.

Walking on water = impossible
Virgin birth = impossible
Man made from clay = Not true
...etc etc etc.

--- rinse and repeat for other religions.



And this is what I base my lack of belief on, a lack of evidence coupled with the fact that most Theistic claims defy logic and reality as I know it.

Nitric Oxide
08-27-2009, 12:06 PM
The rationality is, I tend not to believe in things to which there is no evidence or observationality of said entity. As already stated, I leave the possibilty open, but I lean more towards the likelyhood of one not existing which is why I don't stop at your position of "I don't know". My position is more "I can't truly know but I very highly doubt it". This is why I am what is known as an atheist agnostic, which most atheists are.

I agree with saying that I don't believe in things in which there is no evidence. As for your doubts of god.... ummm you're still not getting what I'm saying. That's ok it's very hard to grasp.

So you doubt his existence based off what? I don't know how to explain this but your intelligence and judgment of the situation is irrelevant because all that you know only applies to our universe. (not trying to be offensive) You can't even fathom the concepts that exist outside of the universe. So for example, you might say "I don't believe because of this reason or that reason" which probably has a good logical basis to it. But understand, that logical basis does not apply to god's realm. You can't possibly have an opinion or judgment. Beyond the universe may exist an area that's anything and everything. The rules are different and infinite. Going back to saying that you can't imagine what it's like.... your imagination is only and entirely based on our universe, therefore anything you think of or you think you know is constricted to exist only inside the universe in which we live. Outside of the universes' existence is unfathomable.


You keep mixing up knowledge and beliefs. Most atheists are not saying they "know" anything, we are talking about what we believe. It is the THEIST who claims to absolutely know certain things. It doesn't matter if they actually do know, it only matters that in their own mind they think they know.


but if you believe something, it's the same thing as saying you know something. You believe based off a reason which only comes from an assumption of knowledge. It's impossible to believe something without having a logical explanation. However, your explanation of your belief is invalid because it does not apply to where god resides.



But you have to jump to the conclusion that there actually is an "outside the universe". There could be, but until we see evidence of this, that concept holds just as much water as the god concept.


yes I know. More importantly though is how do we determine whether there is an outside to the universe? It's impossible and here's why. Essentially you would be saying you know the end of existence under any definition (I say existence instead of space because in other dimensions the concept of space and matter may not even apply). You will never know or have any insight as to whether or not existence is infinite. Statistically speaking, that is attempting to define the possibility of an unknown probability. It's undefined, but since it's a possibility you must acknowledge it. Even though it's an assumption, it's an assumption of unknown likelihood. Just because you've never heard of it does not mean it's unlikely...


Just because something could be true, does not mean it is likely to be true. Nor does it mean you can't make judgements to its likelyhood to exist.

TheCon
08-27-2009, 12:06 PM
Ok can someone really quickly tell me which viewpoint most closley represents each of the following statements. There's a lot of disagreement and I just want to get it right during discussion:

There is a God---

I believe there is a God----

I have no idea whether or not there is a God (insufficient information)-----

I do not believe there is a God-----

There is not a God-----

Thanks!

Nitric Oxide
08-27-2009, 12:08 PM
Yes, based on the laws of the universe as we know them today & modern science I can deduce using my powers of reason, that all Theistic religions and mytholigies are most likely not true.

Walking on water = impossible
Virgin birth = impossible
Man made from clay = Not true
...etc etc etc.

--- rinse and repeat for other religions.



And this is what I base my lack of belief on, a lack of evidence coupled with the fact that most Theistic claims defy logic and reality as I know it.


that's what I'm trying to get at...these laws only apply to our universe. Beyond that, they do not apply so they are irrelevant. You cannot use them to decide whether or not god exists.

LordDarwin
08-27-2009, 12:12 PM
Ok can someone really quickly tell me which viewpoint most closley represents each of the following statements. There's a lot of disagreement and I just want to get it right during discussion:

There is a God--- Theist if it's a defined god. (strong) (illogical)

I believe there is a God---- Theist if it's a defined god.

I have no idea whether or not there is a God (insufficient information)----- N/A Everyone has an opinion one way or another.

I do not believe there is a God----- Atheist if it's a Theistic god they do not believe in.

There is not a God----- Atheist (strong) (illogical)

Thanks!

---

LordDarwin
08-27-2009, 12:16 PM
that's what I'm trying to get at...these laws only apply to our universe. Beyond that, they do not apply so they are irrelevant. You cannot use them to decide whether or not god exists.
Correct, beyond our own universe there is a possibility (50/50) that the laws are different.

However most Theistic accounts of miracles and other actions/events that defy the current known laws take place on Earth in this universe.

TheCon
08-27-2009, 12:21 PM
---

Thanks bro. Although I don't buy the fact that everyone must have an opinion one way or another. While that may be the case practically it seems perfectly legitimate for someone to respond, "I have no idea" or "It's 50/50 either way." Just like if someone asked me "Will the Dodgers or the Yankees win the World series" and I have never watched baseball I could say "I have no idea."

Nitric Oxide
08-27-2009, 12:25 PM
Correct, beyond our own universe there is a possibility (50/50) that the laws are different.

However most Theistic accounts of miracles and other actions/events that defy the current known laws take place on Earth in this universe.

ya i dunno man, recollections are recorded through man and eventually are modified over thousands of years by man which make them inaccurate IMO.


I suppose intervention from outside the universe is possible. I'm not discussing that though lol.

Beeewbs
08-27-2009, 12:53 PM
Not knowing is different than saying you do not believe. If you don't believe, you obviously must think you know something to arrive at that conclusion.


Wrong. You either believe or you don't. There is nothing in between. Saying you don't know is the same as saying you don't believe and saying you don't believe is not necessarily saying something isn't possible or true. If you were to tell me that you were a millionaire, I could say I don't believe you are and still think that maybe you really are - I just don't believe that you are until convinced otherwise.

Nitric Oxide
08-27-2009, 12:56 PM
Wrong. You either believe or you don't. There is nothing in between. Saying you don't know is the same as saying you don't believe and saying you don't believe is not necessarily saying something isn't possible or true. If you were to tell me that you were a millionaire, I could say I don't believe you are and still think that maybe you really are - I just don't believe that you are until convinced otherwise.

i'm holding a coin in my hand. which one is it


you either think it's the right or the left. this should be interesting to know. Also, explain to me why you think it's the left or the right.



Remember, these are your only two options. This situation is no different than believing in god... you have absolutely zero knowledge of the situation. According to you, I must first make a guess before I am able to admit that I don't know.

SkinnyProp03
08-27-2009, 01:01 PM
I see, you'd prefer it if you were just allowed to behave however you wish and do whatever you want.
Yes, as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else's life. That's called liberty. How does two guys marrying affect your life at all?


I didn't write the bible, I just follow it. And no, I don't follow ancient practices from the OT that were cultural in nature.
The rules made by the guys who wrote the NT are 'cultural in nature' (whatever that's supposed to mean) also.


Agreed.

Yes, you do, if that means having equal legal status as a hetero married couple. IMO

Otherwise marry whoever the heck you want.You base your beliefs on the Bible. That's nice. Don't marry a man then. In fact, it's fine if your church does not marry men.
But, this country was founded as a secular republic. There's no secular reason to ban gay marriage. Therefore, it should be legal.

What ever happen to the liberty espoused by conservatives?


It goes against 'human' nature. The reasons for that behavior in the animal kingdom are vastly different than from humans.
No they're not.

SDMuscleBuddy
08-27-2009, 01:03 PM
Wrong. You either believe or you don't. There is nothing in between. Saying you don't know is the same as saying you don't believe and saying you don't believe is not necessarily saying something isn't possible or true. If you were to tell me that you were a millionaire, I could say I don't believe you are and still think that maybe you really are - I just don't believe that you are until convinced otherwise.

I disagree with this statement. Saying you believe, or have faith, is also the same as saying you don't know. Either way. If it was knowable, there would be no need for faith.

Conversely, saying that you know something that is unknowable is the same thing as having faith.

I wonder if people who say they "know for a fact that God exists/doesn't exist" have the same psychology as those who say they "know for a fact the professional wrestling is not fake." You bury your doubt so deeply that it doesn't enter into your thought process.

Nitric Oxide
08-27-2009, 01:17 PM
i'm holding a coin in my hand. which one is it


you either think it's the right or the left. this should be interesting to know. Also, explain to me why you think it's the left or the right.



Remember, these are your only two options. This situation is no different than believing in god... you have absolutely zero knowledge of the situation. According to you, I must first make a guess before I am able to admit that I don't know.

even in making this decision, you could apply some sort of logic. You could ask "are you right handed or left handed?"... even though that's extremely minuscule information, it still affects your guess on which hand holds the coin. The fact is that it gives you some sort of information. Even though it may be insignificant to the greatest extreme, it's some piece of information. Therefore, in this situation you WOULD have some sort of opinion. However, in reference to god existing, you know zero. Absolutely nothing. I'm conscious of the fact that all I know is irrelevant to making a decision. As a result, my belief in god is perfectly balanced between existing and not existing... it's the state of not knowing. Nothing I know applies to god's existence so I have zero support for either conclusion.


Now, this is a theoretical and logical approach to the situation. Is it true? No because I am human and I am subject to uncontrollable characteristics of being a human. I grew up believing in god and so that's why I still do. Is that such a silly thing to say? It sounds like it right? However, just because I'm conscious of the fact that I believe in god because of my childhood does not mean I am positioned to change it. If that was the case, nobody would have ADHD or OCD... those people are conscious of their imperfections but still can't control them.

As a child you're susceptible to these notions and so they're easier for you to accept as you get older. Make sense? I know.... it's irrational but explainable and therefore is acceptable.

Beeewbs
08-27-2009, 01:17 PM
i'm holding a coin in my hand. which one is it


you either think it's the right or the left. this should be interesting to know. Also, explain to me why you think it's the left or the right.



Remember, these are your only two options. This situation is no different than believing in god... you have absolutely zero knowledge of the situation. According to you, I must first make a guess before I am able to admit that I don't know.


Uh, strong strawman. I never said you have to make a guess. I never said anything about guessing. Try reading again.

Beeewbs
08-27-2009, 01:19 PM
I disagree with this statement. Saying you believe, or have faith, is also the same as saying you don't know. Either way. If it was knowable, there would be no need for faith.

Conversely, saying that you know something that is unknowable is the same thing as having faith.

I wonder if people who say they "know for a fact that God exists/doesn't exist" have the same psychology as those who say they "know for a fact the professional wrestling is not fake." You bury your doubt so deeply that it doesn't enter into your thought process.


Well, I think we're getting into semantics here over the word "believe." Maybe I should use the word "know" instead. I wasn't speaking of belief without actually solid evidence - I'm speaking of actually knowledge instead of a hope, which is what belief with faith is. It's not really a belief at all, IMO. But anyways, just trade "believe/belief" with "know" in my last post.

Nitric Oxide
08-27-2009, 01:23 PM
Uh, strong strawman. I never said you have to make a guess. I never said anything about guessing. Try reading again.

ok so instead of using the coin example i'll make it more obvious...


do you think god exists? Now remember, you just said you DON'T have to guess... so therefore you CAN say you don't know WITHOUT guessing.

Beeewbs
08-27-2009, 01:27 PM
ok so instead of using the coin example i'll make it more obvious...


do you think god exists? Now remember, you just said you DON'T have to guess... so therefore you CAN say you don't know WITHOUT guessing.


Dude, just give it up already. You've made, like, 50 posts about this f*cking topic and you just don't get it. I do not believe in god, but I do not claim that there is no god. I simply don't know. I'm an atheist. So are you. Let's move on.

Nitric Oxide
08-27-2009, 01:45 PM
Dude, just give it up already. You've made, like, 50 posts about this f*cking topic and you just don't get it. I do not believe in god, but I do not claim that there is no god. I simply don't know. I'm an atheist. So are you. Let's move on.

you're still not getting what I'm saying. Don't even approach the question religiously, approach it logically and see if you can find a flaw here.

- Assume there is infinite existence outside of our universe in which anything is possible.

Since that's an unanswerable question, you must acknowledge that it is a possibility. You can't just rule out it's possibility since it has an unknown probability. Since you don't know...does not mean it's not possible.

Now, considering if it was true, that means everything you know does not apply to god's realm. Every rule, concept, belief, thought or notion is derived from our universe... everything you think you know only applies to our universe. Like I said though, if god existed elsewhere, that means you know nothing. How can you have an opinion of something in which you know nothing about? (going back to choosing a coin in the hand).


I think the biggest thing you need to concentrate on is an unimaginable existence. Can you imagine something? Anything? Your imagination is based off what you know and what you've seen throughout your life. That means your imagination is limited to our universe. You cannot even begin to fathom existence outside our universe. Impossible.

Can you imagine existence without time, space or matter? Those are just definitions to describe our universes' existence. What if there were other methods of defining existence though? Impossible to imagine, but possible to occur.


Let me ask you this, why do you think there is no god? Why do you think there is a god? Under the concept of god existing in an alternate realm, your justification is irrelevant since your rules don't apply there. There's nothing you can explain to give your belief any credibility because it simply does not apply.

so tell me, why do you not think a god exists?

Beeewbs
08-27-2009, 02:24 PM
so tell me, why do you not think a god exists?

Dude, you write too much and read to little. Stop wasting your time. I'm not going around in circles with you on this anymore.

user5145
08-27-2009, 02:39 PM
NtricOxide all of that is fine and dandy, but once you begin discussing something that is completely incomprehensible, and outside the realm of any possible human understanding, you are discussing something that is meaningless. Not to mention the fact that you must make a ridiculous leap to assume this thing exists.

Nitric Oxide
08-27-2009, 02:49 PM
NtricOxide all of that is fine and dandy, but once you begin discussing something that is completely incomprehensible, and outside the realm of any possible human understanding, you are discussing something that is meaningless. Not to mention the fact that you must make a ridiculous leap to assume this thing exists.

nope, it's just as likely to be true as any other unprovable notion.


That's right, it's incomprehensible which is what I've been trying to emphasize. We know nothing, so be open-minded.

JAGERBOY
08-27-2009, 03:34 PM
I agree with saying that I don't believe in things in which there is no evidence. As for your doubts of god.... ummm you're still not getting what I'm saying. That's ok it's very hard to grasp.

So you doubt his existence based off what? I don't know how to explain this but your intelligence and judgment of the situation is irrelevant because all that you know only applies to our universe. (not trying to be offensive) You can't even fathom the concepts that exist outside of the universe. So for example, you might say "I don't believe because of this reason or that reason" which probably has a good logical basis to it. But understand, that logical basis does not apply to god's realm. You can't possibly have an opinion or judgment. Beyond the universe may exist an area that's anything and everything. The rules are different and infinite. Going back to saying that you can't imagine what it's like.... your imagination is only and entirely based on our universe, therefore anything you think of or you think you know is constricted to exist only inside the universe in which we live. Outside of the universes' existence is unfathomable.


but if you believe something, it's the same thing as saying you know something. You believe based off a reason which only comes from an assumption of knowledge. It's impossible to believe something without having a logical explanation. However, your explanation of your belief is invalid because it does not apply to where god resides.



yes I know. More importantly though is how do we determine whether there is an outside to the universe? It's impossible and here's why. Essentially you would be saying you know the end of existence under any definition (I say existence instead of space because in other dimensions the concept of space and matter may not even apply). You will never know or have any insight as to whether or not existence is infinite. Statistically speaking, that is attempting to define the possibility of an unknown probability. It's undefined, but since it's a possibility you must acknowledge it. Even though it's an assumption, it's an assumption of unknown likelihood. Just because you've never heard of it does not mean it's unlikely...
I was gonna reply with a long drawn out rebuttal, but I think it would be futile. Based on what you've said here, you are not an "agnostic" in the slightest. At best, you are an agnostic theist/deist but I tend to think you are an in the closet Deist. Your entire premise is based on leaps of faith and absolutely murdering Occams Razor. You also don't seem to have a firm grasp on the difference between knowledge and beliefs.

Nitric Oxide
08-27-2009, 03:40 PM
I was gonna reply with a long drawn out rebuttal, but I think it would be futile. Based on what you've said here, you are not an "agnostic" in the slightest. At best, you are an agnostic theist/deist but I tend to think you are an in the closet Deist. Your entire premise is based on leaps of faith and absolutely murdering Occams Razor. You also don't seem to have a firm grasp on the difference between knowledge and beliefs.

nah, it's something i made up just to show you how you could be wrong. So the next time you argue about religion just be more open minded. I wasn't trying to demonstrate this to any specific person but just people in general.

That's the reason I don't post here, arguing is senseless lol.

JAGERBOY
08-27-2009, 03:43 PM
nah, it's something i made up just to show you how you could be wrong. So the next time you argue about religion just be more open minded. I wasn't trying to demonstrate this to any specific person but just people in general.

That's the reason I don't post here, arguing is senseless lol.

Dude, once again, I never said I couldn't be wrong. I actually clearly stated I left that possibility open. My issue with you is you fancy yourself an anti-atheist but not an anti-theist. If you do a search, there have been a few poll threads where the question was asked "Do you leave the possibility open you could be wrong". And overwhelmingly in those threads, it was the theists claiming that they knew they could not be wrong, the atheists generally admitted they could be wrong. So I take issue with your reasoning on being "anti-atheist" since we generally don't even do what it is you claim.

Nitric Oxide
08-27-2009, 03:46 PM
Dude, once again, I never said I couldn't be wrong. I actually clearly stated I left that possibility open. My issue with you is you fancy yourself an anti-atheist but not an anti-theist. If you do a search, there have been a few poll threads where the question was asked "Do you leave the possibility open you could be wrong". And overwhelmingly in those threads, it was the theists claiming that they knew they could not be wrong, the atheists generally admitted they could be wrong. So I take issue with your reasoning on being "anti-atheist" since we generally don't even do what it is you claim.

alrighty then, i see belief bashing all the time and I think it needs to stop.

JAGERBOY
08-27-2009, 04:18 PM
alrighty then, i see belief bashing all the time and I think it needs to stop.

Why?

HeavyShadow
08-27-2009, 05:47 PM
Just very quickly, whatever two consenting adults want to do is no else's business as long as no one gets hurt.

OddLawnGnome
08-27-2009, 07:13 PM
Wow, gay marriage thread turned to huge mindf**k.

As any sensible atheist, I acknowledge that there is a chance that a god-like figure exists. However, I have ruled out the Abrahamic God with near certainty. (Note: I refer to the Abrahamic God with a capital, and god with lowercase to signify an undefined god figure)

If the evidence of God is the Bible, then God is either a huge idiot or he doesn't exist. The Earth is more than 6,000 years old, there are absolutely no records of any Biblical events occurring, animals did not just suddenly pop into existence, etc.


The only other variation is an undefined god figure who really doesn't care. Even then I would question the motive of creating a universe and just leaving it be. Not to mention, where did this god come from? Even with magical booglywoogly powers, how is that any more successful than explaining how everything appeared from nothing than the Big Bang is?