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View Full Version : Bolt will go down as the most dominant athlete ever



SwagMorris
08-21-2009, 12:36 PM
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00601/9_58_bolt_585_601915a.jpg
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01466/boltget1_1466702c.jpg
jus sayin

anonymous123
08-21-2009, 12:46 PM
Phelps

Heisman2
08-21-2009, 12:48 PM
Phelps

He wins a lot but he does not dominate like Bolt. Bolt not only wins but destroys everybody else.

batman15
08-21-2009, 12:51 PM
He wins a lot but he does not dominate like Bolt. Bolt not only wins but destroys everybody else.

Yeah, 15 gold medals is just turrble.

SwagMorris
08-21-2009, 01:05 PM
Phelps

Phelps has a bigger variety of races to do. If Bolt did the 100m running backwards or hopping on one foot, he'd dominate those too.

anonymous123
08-21-2009, 01:06 PM
Phelps has a bigger variety of races to do. If Bolt did the 100m running backwards or hopping on one foot, he'd dominate those too.

Uh, how is that an argument against Phelps exactly?

bbacn123
08-21-2009, 01:07 PM
http://assets.espn.go.com/media/nba/2000/0213/photo/s_mjordon.jpg

batman15
08-21-2009, 01:15 PM
^^^^No, he's just the greatest basketball player.

SwagMorris
08-21-2009, 01:18 PM
Phelps has a bigger variety of races to do. If Bolt did the 100m running backwards or hopping on one foot, he'd dominate those too.


Uh, how is that an argument against Phelps exactly?

...

How many races are there within 200 meters in track... 3 not counting 4x100 and 150m. Looking at Phelps gold medal performances there are atleast 7 within his distance range. Phelps has a lot more chances to win a gold medal than Bolt does.

How is this fuking hard for you to grasp?

SwagMorris
08-21-2009, 01:19 PM
http://assets.espn.go.com/media/nba/2000/0213/photo/s_mjordon.jpg

Tie

bbacn123
08-21-2009, 01:21 PM
^^^^No, he's just the greatest basketball player.

MJ dominated a team sport in a way no one has ever done. It's great what Bolt and Phelps and Woods all do but those are individual sports. How often do you see a team sport dominated by one man? I can only think of one.

SwagMorris
08-21-2009, 01:31 PM
MJ dominated a team sport in a way no one has ever done. It's great what Bolt and Phelps and Woods all do but those are individual sports. How often do you see a team sport dominated by one man? I can only think of one.

Babe Ruth

Heisman2
08-21-2009, 01:35 PM
Yeah, 15 gold medals is just turrble.

Why did you quote me and say that? He could have 132 gold medals and it wouldn't change the fact that he doesn't dominate the competition like Bolt. Besides Secretariat nobody has dominated a race like Bolt has recently.

bbacn123
08-21-2009, 01:37 PM
Babe Ruth

I mean yeah.....but come dude....you dont really think the level of competition compared back then

anonymous123
08-21-2009, 01:41 PM
...

How many races are there within 200 meters in track... 3 not counting 4x100 and 150m. Looking at Phelps gold medal performances there are atleast 7 within his distance range. Phelps has a lot more chances to win a gold medal than Bolt does.

How is this fuking hard for you to grasp?

The fact that Phelps dominates MULTIPLE kinds of races is proof that he's not dominant? Think about how much sense that makes for a second.

SwagMorris
08-21-2009, 01:47 PM
The fact that Phelps dominates MULTIPLE kinds of races is proof that he's not dominant? Think about how much sense that makes for a second.

When did I say he wasn't dominant? I said Usain Bolt is more dominant. Thread isn't that long. You can reread the whole thing in 35 seconds or less.

erftbll81
08-21-2009, 02:11 PM
MJ dominated a team sport in a way no one has ever done. It's great what Bolt and Phelps and Woods all do but those are individual sports. How often do you see a team sport dominated by one man? I can only think of one.

this

trek_6k
08-21-2009, 02:12 PM
Jim Thorpe

/thread

lacey23
08-21-2009, 02:17 PM
MJ dominated a team sport in a way no one has ever done. It's great what Bolt and Phelps and Woods all do but those are individual sports. How often do you see a team sport dominated by one man? I can only think of one.

Shaq, Wilt, LBJ arguably.

xxAchillesxx
08-21-2009, 02:21 PM
When did I say he wasn't dominant? I said Usain Bolt is more dominant. Thread isn't that long. You can reread the whole thing in 35 seconds or less.

Well, then you can make the argument that Lance Armstrong is the most dominant athlete of all time. The Tour de France is widely considered the most grueling test of endurance as a sport in the world...of which he won 7 straight years.

Sean_A_Nitro
08-21-2009, 02:21 PM
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/thetoydepartment/TigerWoods.jpg

xxAchillesxx
08-21-2009, 02:24 PM
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/thetoydepartment/TigerWoods.jpg

Another good example... and he has many years left.

css4lyfe
08-21-2009, 02:25 PM
if he somehow breaks 9sec and never gets caught cheating, then yes. hard to tell this early though hes still young as ****

SwagMorris
08-21-2009, 02:26 PM
Well, then you can make the argument that Lance Armstrong is the most dominant athlete of all time. The Tour de France is widely considered the most grueling test of endurance as a sport in the world...of which he won 7 straight years.

He's up there no doubt.

Dom_88
08-21-2009, 04:08 PM
There aren't many who dominate their sport like Bolt. Tiger comes to mind.

But seriously, who else breaks world records whilst even slowing down at the end and throwing in a chest slap?

TMaG82
08-21-2009, 04:18 PM
if he somehow breaks 9sec and never gets caught cheating, then yes. hard to tell this early though hes still young as ****

While it's not out of the question I doubt anyone will ever do that (sub 9 seconds). There's a limit to human physical ability. Same reason you see select pitchers able to reach 100 mph but never see anything really that much faster. You won't see pitchers able to throw 105 or something like that because there's a limit to what the human body can do.

NoS_oUtLaSt
08-21-2009, 04:21 PM
While it's not out of the question I doubt anyone will ever do that (sub 9 seconds). There's a limit to human physical ability. Same reason you see select pitchers able to reach 100 mph but never see anything really that much faster. You won't see pitchers able to throw 105 or something like that because there's a limit to what the human body can do.

Evolution my friend.

I bet my dad never thought he would see a LB the size of Patrick Willis run a 4.3

Reedfense
08-21-2009, 04:29 PM
Evolution my friend.

I bet my dad never thought he would see a LB the size of Patrick Willis run a 4.3

There's a little more that comes into play than evolution with todays athletes....

Calhexas
08-21-2009, 04:30 PM
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00601/9_58_bolt_585_601915a.jpg
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01466/boltget1_1466702c.jpg
jus sayin

Phelps is by far a greater athlete IMO, and for the sport he dominated in, he's a better athlete at that.

If you disagree, then you know nothing about exercise physiology.

Calhexas
08-21-2009, 04:33 PM
When did I say he wasn't dominant? I said Usain Bolt is more dominant. Thread isn't that long. You can reread the whole thing in 35 seconds or less.

Explain to me how he is "more" dominant.

He races two races.

Phelps particpated in 8, and won all of them. Set multiple records.

Some of his wins happened within an hour of each other, which is ridiculous when you consider the effect lactic acid would play in such a task.

NoS_oUtLaSt
08-21-2009, 04:33 PM
There's a little more that comes into play than evolution with todays athletes....

Yeah but nutrition and workouts are still continuing to improve as well.


Roids aren't the only reason.

Reedfense
08-21-2009, 04:35 PM
Yeah but nutrition and workouts are still continuing to improve as well.


Roids aren't the only reason.

Of course there's more factors than roids. Better training technology, better supplementation, getting started with advanced workout routines at earlier and earlier ages.

Calhexas
08-21-2009, 04:38 PM
Of course there's more factors than roids. Better training technology, better supplementation, getting started with advanced workout routines at earlier and earlier ages.

People are also forgetting that genetics also plays a role in elite athletics.

Athletes have to be born with the potential to make it this far. Not all of us are. You can take two kids with different potential, train them identically, give them the same amount of motivation, and the one with better genetics is going to win out ultimately.

Lance Armstrong had a ridiculous cardiovascular capacity and lactate threshold even as a young boy. Add in the fact that his mother trained him herself at a young age and you get the athlete you have today.

SwagMorris
08-21-2009, 05:21 PM
Explain to me how he is "more" dominant.

He races two races.

Phelps particpated in 8, and won all of them. Set multiple records.

Some of his wins happened within an hour of each other, which is ridiculous when you consider the effect lactic acid would play in such a task.

You conveniently didn't include Bolts records in the 150m and his teams in the 4x100. If we're going to do individual races Bolt holds the records in 3 and Phelps in 5, 2 more individual records not 6 like you just tried to portray.

Swim records are broken every other weekend it seems. You hear about them as much as you hear Lady Gaga on the radio. Bolt broke a 12 year standing record, and then destroyed it the other night.

Also the talent pool for track>>>swimming.

Don't get me wrong Phelps accomplishments are great. I watched as many races as I could and I don't give a **** about swimming. And you're right, I'm no exercise specialist, I don't bench 500lbs like you do, but is Tiger less dominating in his sport than say BJ Penn because his sport is less grueling?

SwagMorris
08-21-2009, 05:29 PM
Correction, Phelps now holds 3 individual world records, the same exact number as Bolt. Weird.

He also holds 3 other records in relay events.

907xxx
08-21-2009, 05:29 PM
Explain to me how he is "more" dominant.

He races two races.

Phelps particpated in 8, and won all of them. Set multiple records.

Some of his wins happened within an hour of each other, which is ridiculous when you consider the effect lactic acid would play in such a task.

i agree

buffuntcay
08-21-2009, 05:35 PM
kind of like how the jonas brothers are dominating the music scene right now

Greg1983
08-21-2009, 06:40 PM
MJ dominated a team sport in a way no one has ever done. It's great what Bolt and Phelps and Woods all do but those are individual sports. How often do you see a team sport dominated by one man? I can only think of one.

Wayne Gretzky. But with team sports there's too many other variables to consider. Would either of them have dominated (in terms of championships) without Pippen/Rodman/Jackson or Messier/Kurri/Coffey? Obviously they'll put up monster stats no matter who they're with, but if you take away their championships then all of a sudden they aren't separated from the pack as much as they currently are. Comparing players across different sports is stupid in general, but even more so with team sports. With individual sports at least supporting casts are taken out of the equation.

Nodice123
08-21-2009, 07:11 PM
As soon as Bolt gets caught juicing this whole argument will be meaningless ...

kethnaab
08-21-2009, 07:53 PM
Bolt is the most dominant at one of the "sexy" sports. Sprinting is a bigtime event. It's fast, it's powerful, the athletes look extremely athletic, and it entertains our short attention spans.

Bolt is insanely dominant at his sport right now. He has raised the bar significantly, but in our world of short memory spans and rapid-fire commercials, it seems we have forgotten some who dominated just as intensely, but for far longer:

http://www.geocities.com/coverbridge2k/artsci/images/karelin.gif

http://thestatsman.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/wayne-gretzky-21.jpg

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/images/louis-joe-22.jpg

http://graysmatter.codivation.com/content/binary/Ronniecoleman.jpg

Zmoke
08-21-2009, 08:04 PM
There's more technique involved in swimming than there is in sprinting, equipment also plays a larger role (swimsuits)

TMaG82
08-21-2009, 08:08 PM
I'm not taking anything away from what Phelps has done but you have to attribute some of his success to technology. Those suits have really changed the way swimming is and had made a mockery of some of the records. Granted every current swimmer has the same advantage now so Phelps still winning is certainly impressive but compared to swimmers of the past it's not a fair comparison. Would phelps still win if he raced in what Spitz did? Most likely. But to smash the records like he has, I'm not so sure.

Also evolution of the athelete someday letting a human run a sub 9 sec 100 meter or throw a 105mph fastball. It'll be a LONG time until that day comes, long after we're all dead.

CaliiforniaLove
08-21-2009, 08:32 PM
I'm not taking anything away from what Phelps has done but you have to attribute some of his success to technology. Those suits have really changed the way swimming is and had made a mockery of some of the records. Granted every current swimmer has the same advantage now so Phelps still winning is certainly impressive but compared to swimmers of the past it's not a fair comparison. Would phelps still win if he raced in what Spitz did? Most likely. But to smash the records like he has, I'm not so sure.

Also evolution of the athelete someday letting a human run a sub 9 sec 100 meter or throw a 105mph fastball. It'll be a LONG time until that day comes, long after we're all dead.

Phelps doesn't even use the most advanced suits that almost everyone else is using. He refuses to use them and still dominates.

Renan
08-21-2009, 10:10 PM
Bolt is the most dominant at one of the "sexy" sports. Sprinting is a bigtime event. It's fast, it's powerful, the athletes look extremely athletic, and it entertains our short attention spans.

Bolt is insanely dominant at his sport right now. He has raised the bar significantly, but in our world of short memory spans and rapid-fire commercials, it seems we have forgotten some who dominated just as intensely, but for far longer:

http://www.geocities.com/coverbridge2k/artsci/images/karelin.gif


If bolt never loses a race, including qualifiers in any competition for the next 10 years...then he will be TIED..i said TIED...with Karelin (this coming from a sprinter, who thinks bolt's records are mind-boggling)

/thread

yes really

batman15
08-21-2009, 10:18 PM
Phelps doesn't even use the most advanced suits that almost everyone else is using. He refuses to use them and still dominates.

x2.

Calhexas
08-22-2009, 02:25 AM
You conveniently didn't include Bolts records in the 150m and his teams in the 4x100. If we're going to do individual races Bolt holds the records in 3 and Phelps in 5, 2 more individual records not 6 like you just tried to portray.

I didn't say he set 6 more, I said he participated and won in 8 events.

I admit I didn't know Bolt set another record in the 150m and/or the 4x100. But that's still only four events. And sprinting on land isn't half as difficult or athletically demanding as sprinting in water.


Swim records are broken every other weekend it seems. You hear about them as much as you hear Lady Gaga on the radio.

This is ridiculous. Please post links to these frequent legitimate swim records being set.


Bolt broke a 12 year standing record, and then destroyed it the other night.

Breaking one record, even convincingly isn't doesn't compare to the athleticism Phelps portrayed. Again, do you understand anything about lactate build up and lactate removal in the body? Do you know how much lactate is built up during something like a swimming race?


Also the talent pool for track>>>swimming.

omg.

Again, Phelps is competing against the best in the world, and winning, despite doing multiple events in ridiculously short amounts of time. This requires incredible athleticism.

Since when was running fast the absolute definition of an athlete.


Don't get me wrong Phelps accomplishments are great. I watched as many races as I could and I don't give a **** about swimming. And you're right, I'm no exercise specialist, I don't bench 500lbs like you do, but is Tiger less dominating in his sport than say BJ Penn because his sport is less grueling?

Tiger and BJ are nowhere near the same analogy as Phelps and Bolt.

Is BJ supposed to be the MMA version of Phelps here? His accomplishments are nowhere near analogous to that of Phelps.

Even if that analogy wasn't faulty, would you say a dominant golf player is a greater athlete than a dominant MMA fighter?

You're basically ignoring the scientific part of these events, and just going with the sensationalism of the media. What Bolt has accomplished is amazing. He's set the fastest recorded times in his respective events...ever. But the fact that Phelps did the same thing, in a more physically demanding event, in shorter periods of time is much more impressive IMO. If you knew about the variables I'm discussing, you wouldn't be arguing this point.

Calhexas
08-22-2009, 02:30 AM
I'm not taking anything away from what Phelps has done but you have to attribute some of his success to technology. Those suits have really changed the way swimming is and had made a mockery of some of the records. Granted every current swimmer has the same advantage now so Phelps still winning is certainly impressive but compared to swimmers of the past it's not a fair comparison. Would phelps still win if he raced in what Spitz did? Most likely. But to smash the records like he has, I'm not so sure.

Are you saying the sprinters of todays age have been subject to the same training parameters, same nutritional information, and wear the same spikes and suits that the athletes of the past did? They run on the same exact surfaces, constructed in the exact same way? You're arguing as if swimming is the only event that these kind of advances have been made in.


Also evolution of the athelete someday letting a human run a sub 9 sec 100 meter or throw a 105mph fastball. It'll be a LONG time until that day comes, long after we're all dead.

Eventually humans will hit their "potential" wall. But at the rate at which we've been pushing these records, I don't think it will be within the next fifty years. Humans will continue to improve, even if its the same ones setting new records. I don't think Bolts record will stand forever, let alone for a century, or even fifty years. Someone, maybe even himself, will beat it. Either through human advancement, or advancement in exercise science (training, nutrition, supplementation, technology)...the record will fall. Athletes will continue to improve. We haven't reached our potential yet.

IllumX
08-22-2009, 07:49 AM
As soon as Bolt gets caught juicing this whole argument will be meaningless ...

So tell me why you are accusing Bolt of jucing and not phelps? Phelps is also breaking WRs at an insane pace...

Nodice123
08-22-2009, 08:05 AM
So tell me why you are accusing Bolt of jucing and not phelps? Phelps is also breaking WRs at an insane pace...

hmmm maybe I should re-read my statement but I don't recall ever saying whether phelps did or did not use steroids. Way to create something out of nothing. My point has nothing to do with phelps. He very well could have juiced but the topic is about Bolt.

C-Squared
08-22-2009, 09:11 AM
Jim Thorpe

/thread

This! He excelled not only in Olympic sports, but, you know, the ones people actually CARE about too...

IllumX
08-22-2009, 09:21 AM
hmmm maybe I should re-read my statement but I don't recall ever saying whether phelps did or did not use steroids. Way to create something out of nothing. My point has nothing to do with phelps. He very well could have juiced but the topic is about Bolt.

I definitely didn't say you said phelps does or doesn't juice, but people are saying phelps is a better athlete..and i'm saying Phelps is doing extrodinary things just like Bolt..but no one is questioning whether he juices...only bolt. Just throwing a general question as to why no one questions Phelps as he continues to break world records.

Nodice123
08-22-2009, 09:24 AM
I definitely didn't say you said phelps does or doesn't juice, but people are saying phelps is a better athlete..and i'm saying Phelps is doing extrodinary things just like Bolt..but no one is questioning whether he juices...only bolt

I am not saying phelps is a better athlete. My original point is that bolt won't even be in consideration for the "best athlete ever" when he tests positive for roids. Now I was kind of half joking but I wouldn't be surprised if he was juicing.

SwagMorris
08-22-2009, 09:54 AM
I didn't say he set 6 more, I said he participated and won in 8 events.

I admit I didn't know Bolt set another record in the 150m and/or the 4x100. But that's still only four events. And sprinting on land isn't half as difficult or athletically demanding as sprinting in water.

They both hold 3 individual world records. You going to keep ignoring that? The difference is Bolt breaks his own records, other people break Phelps records. No ones even close to breaking Bolts records, and won't be for another decade atleast.

Again, Phelps records get broken regularly. Two of his records since the 08 Olympics have been broken by people not named Phelps. Can't say the same for Bolt in his records.


This is ridiculous. Please post links to these frequent legitimate swim records being set.

Does my username say "Google"? Go look it up yourself.

The fact the 2 of Phelps "amazing" records have been broken by other people within a year speaks enough for itself.


Breaking one record, even convincingly isn't doesn't compare to the athleticism Phelps portrayed.

He's broken 3 individual records convincingly. No one else is even close to him. Can't say the same for Phelps when he has to keep regaining his own records. Margin of competition between the 2 in the respective events in much greater for Bolt, even with the fastest talent level in the history of man. Tyson Gay ran a fuking 9.71, an American record, and was torched by Bolt.


Again, do you understand anything about lactate build up and lactate removal in the body? Do you know how much lactate is built up during something like a swimming race?

Uh der dat lactating aceed buiild up? wuz dat? Don't try and play off like you're the all knowing exercise expert. That's not even the point.Any moron can swim one lap in the pool and tell that it's a lot harder than running, hence the analogy of Tiger and BJ Penn. BJ Penn is one of the most dominating MMA fighters of all time. If that analogy is too far above your head for you to comprehend, then that's on you. No one can help you with that.


omg.

Again, Phelps is competing against the best in the world, and winning, despite doing multiple events in ridiculously short amounts of time. This requires incredible athleticism.

Since when was running fast the absolute definition of an athlete.

When did I say it was? You like putting words in people's mouths.


Tiger and BJ are nowhere near the same analogy as Phelps and Bolt.

Is BJ supposed to be the MMA version of Phelps here? His accomplishments are nowhere near analogous to that of Phelps.

Even if that analogy wasn't faulty, would you say a dominant golf player is a greater athlete than a dominant MMA fighter?

Read this slowly... It's using an extreme analogy to show the fault in your logic. You stated that swimming is harder than running, which is true, but one of the most dominant fighters in the world, is not more dominant that the most dominant golfer in the world, simply because his sport is more grueling. The difference between golf and MMA is a lot bigger than that of swimming and track. Not a hard concept to grasp. Maybe you should try not reading and getting out of it what you want to, but using your brain, and actually thinking.

Again see above. If you can't figure that out, I won't lose any sleep over it.


You're basically ignoring the scientific part of these events, and just going with the sensationalism of the media. What Bolt has accomplished is amazing. He's set the fastest recorded times in his respective events...ever. But the fact that Phelps did the same thing, in a more physically demanding event, in shorter periods of time is much more impressive IMO. If you knew about the variables I'm discussing, you wouldn't be arguing this point.

I was about to say the same thing about you. Weird.

Heisman2
08-22-2009, 09:57 AM
Are you saying the sprinters of todays age have been subject to the same training parameters, same nutritional information, and wear the same spikes and suits that the athletes of the past did? They run on the same exact surfaces, constructed in the exact same way? You're arguing as if swimming is the only event that these kind of advances have been made in.



Eventually humans will hit their "potential" wall. But at the rate at which we've been pushing these records, I don't think it will be within the next fifty years. Humans will continue to improve, even if its the same ones setting new records. I don't think Bolts record will stand forever, let alone for a century, or even fifty years. Someone, maybe even himself, will beat it. Either through human advancement, or advancement in exercise science (training, nutrition, supplementation, technology)...the record will fall. Athletes will continue to improve. We haven't reached our potential yet.

You're right... Bolt JUST turned 23. He's going to be breaking his records for a long time If you look at his progressions from the age of 15 there is no sign of him slowing down any time soon.

And while what Phelps did is amazing, he simply isn't dominating the races like Bolt is. And while Bolt will continue to break records, I don't know of any up and coming sprinters who look like they will pose any type of challenge at all.

BobbyZeus
08-22-2009, 10:17 AM
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y226/bobbyhillarlen/bret-hart-the-hitman-returns-200511.jpg

thegenerel
08-22-2009, 10:25 AM
i think to be the most dominant athlete of all time, an athlete must be dominating for years and years.

Bolt has done it one year.

Tiger has been going at it at least ten

Federer has dominated tennis for a long time, most grand slam championships ever, and he isnt close to being done yet.

Phelps is the most successful olympian of all time.

Nodice123
08-22-2009, 10:26 AM
i think to be the most dominant athlete of all time, an athlete must be dominating for years and years.

Bolt has done it one year.

Tiger has been going at it at least ten

Federer has dominated tennis for a long time, most grand slam championships ever, and he isnt close to being done yet.

Phelps is the most successful olympian of all time.


I lol'd when Federer was going through his slump and everyone thought he was washed up. He is only 27 yrs old! He has some quality years left in him.

SwagMorris
08-22-2009, 10:42 AM
i think to be the most dominant athlete of all time, an athlete must be dominating for years and years.

Bolt has done it one year.

Tiger has been going at it at least ten

Federer has dominated tennis for a long time, most grand slam championships ever, and he isnt close to being done yet.

Phelps is the most successful olympian of all time.

Actually 2. He didn't just come out of nowhere at the Olympics. He was the heavy favorite for a reason.

But I most definitely agree. You have to dominant for years, and he will be. No one else is even close right now. He still has room for improvement, and he's not even to his prime yet.

Brb, waiting for when Bolt starts dominating the 400m, like his coach said he'll start working on next.

TMaG82
08-22-2009, 02:08 PM
I didn't say he set 6 more, I said he participated and won in 8 events.

This is ridiculous. Please post links to these frequent legitimate swim records being set.



I'm not taking anything away from Phelps, what he did last year and what he continues to do is great but let's not discount the advantages of technology. Yes what he's doing is perfectly legal just like the supplements and training techniques that modern atheletes have now are great. It's difficult to compare year to year, let along era to era. That's why when all these 'Greatest of all-time lists' are made in every sport it's difficult to say that Bill Russell was better or worse than Tim Duncan since they played 40 years apart against different competition, etc. Same goes for baseball, back in the day when they weren't all making huge salaries a lot of them used the offseason to work a 2nd job and used training camp to get into shape whereas the modern ballplayer is pretty much in shape 365 days a year. Same goes for working out and taking supplements. The only supplements old time ball players used was the old drinking bottle. Look at all the massive HR Mickey Mantle hit when he was playing and that was when he was living the life of massive drinking, etc.

To your point about the swimming records. Quick wikipedia search would bring up the following.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_swimming

Every single one of the records in the first table was is mens swimming records was established in 2008 or 2009 except for one. Look at the 2nd table with the female swimming records, every single one was set from 2007 to current. The WR's that Phelps set in the Beijing games were the following.

Gold 400m individual medley 4:03.84 (WR)
Gold 4 x 100m freestyle relay 3:08.24 (WR)
Gold 200m freestyle 1:42.96 (WR)
Gold 200m butterfly 1:52.03 (WR)
Gold 4 x 200m freestyle relay 6:58.56 (WR)
Gold 200m individual medley 1:54.23 (WR)
Gold 100m butterfly 50.58 (OR)
Gold 4 x 100m medley relay 3:29.34 (WR)

The 400m individual medley is still a WR, as is the 4 x 100m freestyle relay. The 200m freestyle which was 1:42.96 was broken this year and is 1:42. Almost a second faster. The 200m butterfly Phelps broke himself. The 4 x 200 freestyle was broken this year, the 200m individual medley, the 100m butterfly by almost a full second. A full second of a sprint? The same for the 4 x 100m medley, it was broken by 2 full seconds.


I lol'd when Federer was going through his slump and everyone thought he was washed up. He is only 27 yrs old! He has some quality years left in him.

The thing with Federer is that he's only 27 but traditionally he's at an age when tennis players start to slow down. He still have some good tennis ahead of him but even he'd probably admit that his prime years are behind him now.

Calhexas
08-22-2009, 02:42 PM
They both hold 3 individual world records. You going to keep ignoring that? The difference is Bolt breaks his own records, other people break Phelps records. No ones even close to breaking Bolts records, and won't be for another decade atleast.

I'm not ignoring anything. You put words in my mouth.

First of all, Phelps set records in events practically back to back, in something more difficult and physically challenging than what Bolt is doing.

Again, you're only seeing times, and records, and you're not paying attention to the toll these events take on a human body.

Swimming physical demand >>> Running/Sprinting physical demand.


Again, Phelps records get broken regularly. Two of his records since the 08 Olympics have been broken by people not named Phelps. Can't say the same for Bolt in his records.

Did the same person break both records? And if so, did they do it within an hour of each other?

If so, I'd say that person is also more athletically gifted than Bolt is.

To do what these swimmers are doing in the amount of time they're doing it is more impressive than what Bolt is doing. I'm not saying what Bolt is doing isn't impressive, I'm saying that my understanding of what it takes physically to do it...Phelps is doing a lot more than Bolt is.

Are you implying that swimming 100-200m isn't as physically demanding as running it? You're working just as hard, for a longer amount of time. That means much more lactic acid build up in your system, and a much higher oxygen debt...which means you need much longer rest periods. Yet Phelps set two records something like 30 minutes apart from each other, when it was understood that over an hour would've been needed to fully recover from the first race.

Again, that IMO is more impressive than Bolt sprinting for 10-20sec (100-200m).


Does my username say "Google"? Go look it up yourself.

You're the one trying to use it as support for your argument. Burden of proof brah.


The fact the 2 of Phelps "amazing" records have been broken by other people within a year speaks enough for itself.

I don't think it does.

First of all, the 200m record was broken by someone admittedly wearing a faster suit (proven). Phelps doesn't wear the full suits that are proven to be faster in the water, therefore his record isn't as enhanced by technology as the German fellow who broke it. The German guy even said he hopes to race Phelps in the future without the suit so he can see if it made the difference. Basically...swimming is becoming MORE competitive because of technological advancements. Phelps is arguing that there should be a uniform rule making all swimmers wear the same suit, thus granting everyone the same technological advantage. Makes perfect sense.


He's broken 3 individual records convincingly. No one else is even close to him. Can't say the same for Phelps when he has to keep regaining his own records.

Arguably because of technology.


Margin of competition between the 2 in the respective events in much greater for Bolt, even with the fastest talent level in the history of man. Tyson Gay ran a fuking 9.71, an American record, and was torched by Bolt.

Again, I don't see Bolt's record as an indication of him being the best athlete. He's demonstrated one athletic aspect very well (the best in recorded history obviously). But the fact is, that there are other people doing more physically demanding things and still winning on a monumental level.


Uh der dat lactating aceed buiild up? wuz dat? Don't try and play off like you're the all knowing exercise expert.

I'm not an expert, I just happened to go to school for exercise science so I understand how to examine something past what the media and general public see.

There's more to these sports than just running or swimming fast. I'm sorry you don't understand that, but it's not my fault you're ignorant.

These athletes should know what all this means, their coaches have to know it and their training is designed based off of data like lactate thresholds, lactate removal rate. It's how they're getting better and athletes are evolving.


That's not even the point.Any moron can swim one lap in the pool and tell that it's a lot harder than running, hence the analogy of Tiger and BJ Penn. BJ Penn is one of the most dominating MMA fighters of all time.

Bold is very arguable.

14-5-1 is not what I would call one of the most dominating MMA records of all time brah. Going back to the 2004 Sydney Olympics, Phelps is 31-4 against the world's best. Those 4 losses, twice he was 2nd, and twice he was 3rd. Practically all of BJ's fights are in the UFC, which is already regarded as not being the highest level of fight talent in the MMA community.

Analogy blows brah.

BJ is not the Phelps of MMA.

Since 2004, Bolt is 6-2. With two 2nd place finishes as his losses. In a less physically demanding sport, he's not as dominant. Phelps is winning in more events, in a more physically demanding activity. Don't really know how else to spell it out to you.


If that analogy is too far above your head for you to comprehend, then that's on you. No one can help you with that.

If you think that analogy is the tits...then lmfao. :)


When did I say it was? You like putting words in people's mouths.

You're implying that what Bolt is doing is the most athletic thing possible. There are other athletes out there dominating in more athletic events. Hence he's not even the best athlete, let alone the most dominant.


Read this slowly... It's using an extreme analogy to show the fault in your logic.

Your analogy sucks, because you misinterpreted my logic.


You stated that swimming is harder than running, which is true, but one of the most dominant fighters in the world, is not more dominant that the most dominant golfer in the world, simply because his sport is more grueling.

Evidence that you don't understand what I'm saying.

I'm saying BJ Penn doesn't dominate anywhere near on the same scale that Phelps does, therefore his use as a "dominant" athlete in his sport is weak.

Gold and MMA aren't even close to related to one another. Phelps and Bolt are both sprinters, one in the water and the other on land. Hence why they are analogous. Tiger and BJ is a ridiculous analogy, and quite frankly, random as ****. It's just not well thought out, and shows that you totally don't understand what I'm talking about.


The difference between golf and MMA is a lot bigger than that of swimming and track. Not a hard concept to grasp. Maybe you should try not reading and getting out of it what you want to, but using your brain, and actually thinking.

lol wut?


Again see above. If you can't figure that out, I won't lose any sleep over it.

um...okay.

I'm sorry you make no sense at all with your crappy analogies and lack of exercise phys knowledge.


I was about to say the same thing about you. Weird.

How am I going with the sensationalism of the media?

I'm going with the scientific examination of the data brah. You're the one going "ooooohhhh wow...Bolt is soooo fasts...he must be the greatest athletez on teh planetzzz!"

Calhexas
08-22-2009, 02:48 PM
You're right... Bolt JUST turned 23. He's going to be breaking his records for a long time If you look at his progressions from the age of 15 there is no sign of him slowing down any time soon.

And while what Phelps did is amazing, he simply isn't dominating the races like Bolt is. And while Bolt will continue to break records, I don't know of any up and coming sprinters who look like they will pose any type of challenge at all.

Phelps has been more dominant in the past 5 years than Bolt has...fact.

He's performed better in a more physically demanding activity than Bolt has...fact.

Phelps performance in the past 5 years: 31 1st places, 2 2nd Places, 2 3rd Places.

Bolt's performance in the past 5 years: 6 1st places, 2 2nd Places.

31-4 vs 6-2.

31 wins in a more physically demanding event, against greater technological influence.

It can only be concluded that Phelps is the greater athlete.

And also, in 2007, Bolt finished 2nd twice. Only two years ago, he wasn't the best.

We have no idea if another person will come along and beat Bolt's records...but it just goes to show you how fast someone can pop up out of nowhere.

Heisman2
08-22-2009, 03:19 PM
Phelps has been more dominant in the past 5 years than Bolt has...fact.

He's performed better in a more physically demanding activity than Bolt has...fact.

Phelps performance in the past 5 years: 31 1st places, 2 2nd Places, 2 3rd Places.

Bolt's performance in the past 5 years: 6 1st places, 2 2nd Places.

31-4 vs 6-2.

31 wins in a more physically demanding event, against greater technological influence.

It can only be concluded that Phelps is the greater athlete.

And also, in 2007, Bolt finished 2nd twice. Only two years ago, he wasn't the best.

We have no idea if another person will come along and beat Bolt's records...but it just goes to show you how fast someone can pop up out of nowhere.

Did you not comprehend what I posted? Bolt didn't come out of nowhere... he's dominated since he was 15! He just turned 23, so that's 8 years. In 2004 at the age of 17 he ran the 200m in 19.93 seconds, which would have been top 8 at the world championships this year (not sure what the wind was, though).

Bolt didn't come out of nowhere... anybody who follows track and field has known about him for a long time.

SwagMorris
08-22-2009, 03:28 PM
I'm not ignoring anything. You put words in my mouth.

First of all, Phelps set records in events practically back to back, in something more difficult and physically challenging than what Bolt is doing.

Again, you're only seeing times, and records, and you're not paying attention to the toll these events take on a human body.

Swimming physical demand >>> Running/Sprinting physical demand.



Did the same person break both records? And if so, did they do it within an hour of each other?

If so, I'd say that person is also more athletically gifted than Bolt is.

To do what these swimmers are doing in the amount of time they're doing it is more impressive than what Bolt is doing. I'm not saying what Bolt is doing isn't impressive, I'm saying that my understanding of what it takes physically to do it...Phelps is doing a lot more than Bolt is.

Are you implying that swimming 100-200m isn't as physically demanding as running it? You're working just as hard, for a longer amount of time. That means much more lactic acid build up in your system, and a much higher oxygen debt...which means you need much longer rest periods. Yet Phelps set two records something like 30 minutes apart from each other, when it was understood that over an hour would've been needed to fully recover from the first race.

Again, that IMO is more impressive than Bolt sprinting for 10-20sec (100-200m).



You're the one trying to use it as support for your argument. Burden of proof brah.



I don't think it does.

First of all, the 200m record was broken by someone admittedly wearing a faster suit (proven). Phelps doesn't wear the full suits that are proven to be faster in the water, therefore his record isn't as enhanced by technology as the German fellow who broke it. The German guy even said he hopes to race Phelps in the future without the suit so he can see if it made the difference. Basically...swimming is becoming MORE competitive because of technological advancements. Phelps is arguing that there should be a uniform rule making all swimmers wear the same suit, thus granting everyone the same technological advantage. Makes perfect sense.



Arguably because of technology.



Again, I don't see Bolt's record as an indication of him being the best athlete. He's demonstrated one athletic aspect very well (the best in recorded history obviously). But the fact is, that there are other people doing more physically demanding things and still winning on a monumental level.



I'm not an expert, I just happened to go to school for exercise science so I understand how to examine something past what the media and general public see.

There's more to these sports than just running or swimming fast. I'm sorry you don't understand that, but it's not my fault you're ignorant.

These athletes should know what all this means, their coaches have to know it and their training is designed based off of data like lactate thresholds, lactate removal rate. It's how they're getting better and athletes are evolving.



Bold is very arguable.

14-5-1 is not what I would call one of the most dominating MMA records of all time brah. Going back to the 2004 Sydney Olympics, Phelps is 31-4 against the world's best. Those 4 losses, twice he was 2nd, and twice he was 3rd. Practically all of BJ's fights are in the UFC, which is already regarded as not being the highest level of fight talent in the MMA community.

Analogy blows brah.

BJ is not the Phelps of MMA.

Since 2004, Bolt is 6-2. With two 2nd place finishes as his losses. In a less physically demanding sport, he's not as dominant. Phelps is winning in more events, in a more physically demanding activity. Don't really know how else to spell it out to you.



If you think that analogy is the tits...then lmfao. :)



You're implying that what Bolt is doing is the most athletic thing possible. There are other athletes out there dominating in more athletic events. Hence he's not even the best athlete, let alone the most dominant.



Your analogy sucks, because you misinterpreted my logic.



Evidence that you don't understand what I'm saying.

I'm saying BJ Penn doesn't dominate anywhere near on the same scale that Phelps does, therefore his use as a "dominant" athlete in his sport is weak.

Gold and MMA aren't even close to related to one another. Phelps and Bolt are both sprinters, one in the water and the other on land. Hence why they are analogous. Tiger and BJ is a ridiculous analogy, and quite frankly, random as ****. It's just not well thought out, and shows that you totally don't understand what I'm talking about.



lol wut?



um...okay.

I'm sorry you make no sense at all with your crappy analogies and lack of exercise phys knowledge.



How am I going with the sensationalism of the media?

I'm going with the scientific examination of the data brah. You're the one going "ooooohhhh wow...Bolt is soooo fasts...he must be the greatest athletez on teh planetzzz!"

Holy fuking sh!t nice novel.

The fact that you can't understand a simple analogy shows the flaw in your logic of grueling sports. If you're going to go by that, then Mark Allen is by far the most dominate and greatest athlete of all-time. Doesn't get anymore grueling then what he does. BJ Penn is an example of an athlete from a very grueling sport, one where you can't pin point the most dominate fighter. Sorry, I thought maybe being in America you would know something about the sport. Admit it, you just googled BJ Penn's name after reading the previously mentioned post because you had never heard of him.

And for the Bolded part... are you a f*cking idiot? I just said swimming is harder.... in the very post that you just replied to. Again, stop reading what you want to out of posts, and use that piece of wrinkled mass that's in your skull.





brb, Phelps is losing another one of his records as I type by someone no one's ever heard of

Mafiafolife77
08-22-2009, 03:29 PM
http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/31808561/Michael+Jackson+Jackson_popcorn.gif

Calhexas
08-22-2009, 03:29 PM
Did you not comprehend what I posted? Bolt didn't come out of nowhere... he's dominated since he was 15! He just turned 23, so that's 8 years. In 2004 at the age of 17 he ran the 200m in 19.93 seconds, which would have been top 8 at the world championships this year (not sure what the wind was, though).

Bolt didn't come out of nowhere... anybody who follows track and field has known about him for a long time.

Again, in 2007 he finished 2nd twice in both his events.

No, that isn't exactly "nowhere", but he went from not being the best, to being the best in a matter of 2 years.

That was my point. Someone who isn't the best now, could pop up in the next few years and suddenly be much better. Look at Bolt's history, this is very plausible.

Calhexas
08-22-2009, 03:42 PM
Holy fuking sh!t nice novel.

cry some more plz.


The fact that you can't understand a simple analogy shows the flaw in your logic of grueling sports.

omg.


If you're going to go by that, then Mark Allen is by far the most dominate and greatest athlete of all-time. Doesn't get anymore grueling then what he does.

Endurance wise absolutely.


BJ Penn is an example of an athlete from a very grueling sport, one where you can't pin point the most dominate fighter.

I'm sure most MMA communities would agree that Fedor is the most dominant fighter. Yet he's probably doesn't have the greatest athletic body (not necessarily looks wise, but function in general). That's why the MMA argument blows, because you don't necessarily have to be excpetionally athletic. There are several ways you can win in that sport.


Sorry, I thought maybe being in America you would know something about the sport. Admit it, you just googled BJ Penn's name after reading the previously mentioned post because you had never heard of him.

I watched Ultimate Fighter, I've seen his past four fights including his loss to Jens. The only thing I had to check, was his record...because I don't commit every MMA fighters record to memory. Especially someone like BJ (14-5 =/= dominant IMO). Not even a 75% win record.


And for the Bolded part... are you a f*cking idiot? I just said swimming is harder.... in the very post that you just replied to. Again, stop reading what you want to out of posts, and use that piece of wrinkled mass that's in your skull.

lol u mad.

If you acknowledge swimming is harder, than how can you not acknowledge that someone who has won more (25 more) events in a harder activity is not more dominant? Do you understand that not only is swimming harder, but winning two swimming races within an hour of each other is SIGNIFICANTLY more impressive than winning two sprints day(s) apart.


brb, Phelps is losing another one of his records as I type by someone no one's ever heard of

:rolleyes:

SwagMorris
08-22-2009, 03:44 PM
Again, in 2007 he finished 2nd twice in both his events.

No, that isn't exactly "nowhere", but he went from not being the best, to being the best in a matter of 2 years.

That was my point. Someone who isn't the best now, could pop up in the next few years and suddenly be much better. Look at Bolt's history, this is very plausible.

Go ahead and explain to him lactic acid since people who have been on a bodybuilding site for 4 years apparently don't know what it is or how it works:rolleyes:

Calhexas
08-22-2009, 03:46 PM
Go ahead and explain to him lactic acid since people who have been on a bodybuilding site for 4 years apparently don't know what it is or how it works:rolleyes:

Well apparently you have no clue the factor it plays.

brb googling lactate threshold and lactate removal lol

how2quitdrinkin
08-22-2009, 03:47 PM
I think that title belongs to a Mr. Kobe Bryant.

SwagMorris
08-22-2009, 03:58 PM
cry some more plz.



omg.



Endurance wise absolutely.



I'm sure most MMA communities would agree that Fedor is the most dominant fighter. Yet he's probably doesn't have the greatest athletic body (not necessarily looks wise, but function in general). That's why the MMA argument blows, because you don't necessarily have to be excpetionally athletic. There are several ways you can win in that sport.



I watched Ultimate Fighter, I've seen his past four fights including his loss to Jens. The only thing I had to check, was his record...because I don't commit every MMA fighters record to memory. Especially someone like BJ (14-5 =/= dominant IMO). Not even a 75% win record.



lol u mad.

If you acknowledge swimming is harder, than how can you not acknowledge that someone who has won more (25 more) events in a harder activity is not more dominant? Do you understand that not only is swimming harder, but winning two swimming races within an hour of each other is SIGNIFICANTLY more impressive than winning two sprints day(s) apart.



:rolleyes:

Yup Fedor is the best because Pride is such a great organization and his 2 Affliction fights were against such amazing washed up competitors in the weakest division of MMA:rolleyes:


Well apparently you have no clue the factor it plays.

brb googling lactate threshold and lactate removal lol

You got me there, I've never in my life have even heard of this mystery substance. Is it some form of voodoo that other athletes use on each other? Can I buy it from wal-mart or do I sacrifice a swimmer to obtain some? Enlighten me.

Clide Whit
08-22-2009, 04:01 PM
Most of the time when I see Bolt run, it looks like he isn't even putting in 100%, and yet he still burns everyone else on the track.

TMaG82
08-22-2009, 04:18 PM
You're the one trying to use it as support for your argument. Burden of proof brah.


First of all, the 200m record was broken by someone admittedly wearing a faster suit (proven). Phelps doesn't wear the full suits that are proven to be faster in the water, therefore his record isn't as enhanced by technology as the German fellow who broke it. The German guy even said he hopes to race Phelps in the future without the suit so he can see if it made the difference. Basically...swimming is becoming MORE competitive because of technological advancements. Phelps is arguing that there should be a uniform rule making all swimmers wear the same suit, thus granting everyone the same technological advantage. Makes perfect sense.



One post above this I posted the Wikipedia link to the swimming records. Again every single major male swimming record was set in 2008 or 2009 with the exception of one in 2001. Every single female swimming record was set in 2007-2009.

Phelps has the opportunity to wear the better suit, he just chooses not to. Phelps has a contract with Speedo whereas the better, faster suit is made by Arena. Speedo has already given Phelps the green light to wear the better suit if he wants to, but he choose not to because he's been sponsored by Speedo since he was a teenager. I respect his loyalty about that but it's not like he's being forced to use subpar equipment. He could wear the faster suit if he wanted but he doesn't. That means his performance is more impressive yes but let's not take away from the fact that the suits themselves as most swimming experts and analysts have said repeatedly are making a mockery of swimming records.

Mafiafolife77
08-22-2009, 04:21 PM
yup fedor is the best because pride is such a great organization and his 2 affliction fights were against such amazing washed up competitors in the weakest division of mma:rolleyes:

l
m
a
o

themethod7
08-22-2009, 04:24 PM
kind of like how the jonas brothers are dominating the music scene right now

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b284/cool1337/st_facepalm.gif

Calhexas
08-22-2009, 05:23 PM
Yup Fedor is the best because Pride is such a great organization and his 2 Affliction fights were against such amazing washed up competitors in the weakest division of MMA:rolleyes:

So your opinion is that Fedor is not the best MMA fighter? And BJ Penn is more dominant than Fedor?

Interesting theory.


You got me there, I've never in my life have even heard of this mystery substance. Is it some form of voodoo that other athletes use on each other? Can I buy it from wal-mart or do I sacrifice a swimmer to obtain some? Enlighten me.

lol at you trying to pretend like you know wtf I was talking about earlier.

It's obvious you either don't know **** about it, or you weren't thinking enough to factor it in to your original thought.

The fact is, what Phelps has done was a lot more physically demanding than what Bolt has done. Phelps has accomplished more, in a shorter amount of time, while putting more stress and challenge upon himself (competing with short rest periods, competing without the advantage of the best technology).

All smart-assness aside, I don't see either of us changing our minds.

Good day to you sir.

Calhexas
08-22-2009, 05:25 PM
One post above this I posted the Wikipedia link to the swimming records. Again every single major male swimming record was set in 2008 or 2009 with the exception of one in 2001. Every single female swimming record was set in 2007-2009.

Phelps has the opportunity to wear the better suit, he just chooses not to. Phelps has a contract with Speedo whereas the better, faster suit is made by Arena. Speedo has already given Phelps the green light to wear the better suit if he wants to, but he choose not to because he's been sponsored by Speedo since he was a teenager. I respect his loyalty about that but it's not like he's being forced to use subpar equipment. He could wear the faster suit if he wanted but he doesn't. That means his performance is more impressive yes but let's not take away from the fact that the suits themselves as most swimming experts and analysts have said repeatedly are making a mockery of swimming records.

The bold print alone + the fact that he beat people wearing the faster suits is why I believe he is a better athlete. Even when facing superior equipment, he proved he can still win.

Only very recently has he lost, and even then, the loss could easily be attributed to the technological disadvantage he was at.

SwagMorris
08-22-2009, 05:49 PM
So your opinion is that Fedor is not the best MMA fighter? And BJ Penn is more dominant than Fedor?

Interesting theory.

There is no doubt that BJ is more dominant the Fedor. Not even close. This isn't even up for debate.


lol at you trying to pretend like you know wtf I was talking about earlier.

It's obvious you either don't know **** about it, or you weren't thinking enough to factor it in to your original thought.

The fact is, what Phelps has done was a lot more physically demanding than what Bolt has done. Phelps has accomplished more, in a shorter amount of time, while putting more stress and challenge upon himself (competing with short rest periods, competing without the advantage of the best technology).

All smart-assness aside, I don't see either of us changing our minds.

Good day to you sir.

You may think you're an exercise guru, but don't even try to pull **** like that. Ignoring one's comments on a subject is a completely different thing than not having any clue about what one is talking about. It's lactic acid. Any newby who has read their first book on exercise knows what it is. Stop acting like you've just unraveled the Dead Sea Scrolls and you're the only one who knows what they say inside.

I ignored it because as I've already stated, Usain Bolt dominating his competition>>>Phelps. Hell Paul Biedermann is better than Phelps right now. He beat him in the same race and took his WR like 3 weeks ago (see WR's in swimming being broke on a meet to meet basis)

edit: lol @ the 100m butterfly WR being set on 3 different occasions this year alone

TMaG82
08-22-2009, 06:30 PM
The bold print alone + the fact that he beat people wearing the faster suits is why I believe he is a better athlete. Even when facing superior equipment, he proved he can still win.

Only very recently has he lost, and even then, the loss could easily be attributed to the technological disadvantage he was at.

I'm not saying that Phelps isn't a great athelete. But the simple fact that he's not the only one that's breaking records takes away from it slightly. It makes it less jaw dropping if more people other than you are breaking records.

Greg1983
08-22-2009, 06:45 PM
I'm sure most MMA communities would agree that Fedor is the most dominant fighter. Yet he's probably doesn't have the greatest athletic body (not necessarily looks wise, but function in general). That's why the MMA argument blows, because you don't necessarily have to be excpetionally athletic. There are several ways you can win in that sport.


The only person dominating his weight class like BJ right now is Anderson Silva, so I don't see how it's a bad analogy. So he has losses outside of his weight class. I'm sure Bolt would lose some races if he tried his hand at marathons. You're completely ignoring his point that how physically demanding the sport is has nothing to do with how dominant you are at it. Otherwise Tiger wouldn't be considered a dominant athlete at all, which is completely ridiculous.

SwagMorris
08-22-2009, 07:21 PM
The only person dominating his weight class like BJ right now is Anderson Silva, so I don't see how it's a bad analogy. So he has losses outside of his weight class. I'm sure Bolt would lose some races if he tried his hand at marathons. You're completely ignoring his point that how physically demanding the sport is has nothing to do with how dominant you are at it. Otherwise Tiger wouldn't be considered a dominant athlete at all, which is completely ridiculous.


And Lyoto Machida. Dudes scary.

LebronJ
08-22-2009, 07:43 PM
Just saying, Tyson Gay run a 9.71 this year sprinting all out for 100m.
Bolt run a 9.69 jogging the last 15m last year.

This is being amazingly dominant in a sport.

Swimming is really demanding physically, and what phelps did is amazing, but it's arguing over apple and oranges.

You can argue that phelps is more dominant because he won every event in such a short period of time against the world's best.

you can also agrue that phelps didn't dominant a single race the way bolt did in both of his. Depends on what you find more impressive

Mafiafolife77
08-22-2009, 07:47 PM
but it's arguing over apple and oranges.

pretty much the theme of this entire thread. how MMA got brought into this conversation as a comparable component is beyond me.

SwagMorris
08-22-2009, 07:56 PM
how MMA got brought into this conversation as a comparable component is beyond me.

A lot of things are in no doubt beyond you

Mafiafolife77
08-22-2009, 08:04 PM
A lot of things are in no doubt beyond you

and obviously you too, seeing as all that MMA consists of in your mind is UFC: the pinnacle of champions LMAO. fukkin geek.

SwagMorris
08-22-2009, 08:14 PM
and obviously you too, seeing as all that MMA consists of in your mind is UFC: the pinnacle of champions LMAO. fukkin geek.

You trying to say Pride is better? Besides Rampage, pretty sure no Pride fighters have had any sort of success in UFC. Prides "Golden Boy" Wanderlei Silva has won a grand total of 3 UFC fights. 2 of those being 2000 and before. Since he came back he is 1-3. Wow pretty awesome.

Or Cro-Cop. Gabriel Gonzaga introduced him to UFC pretty nicely.

Blahzay23
08-22-2009, 08:23 PM
Since we all know that noone will come close to beating Bolt in the 100m or 200m for the remainder of of career, I would like to see him strat working on the 400m/long jump/triple jump/etc.

Mafiafolife77
08-22-2009, 08:35 PM
You trying to say Pride is better? Besides Rampage, pretty sure no Pride fighters have had any sort of success in UFC. Prides "Golden Boy" Wanderlei Silva has won a grand total of 3 UFC fights. 2 of those being 2000 and before. Since he came back he is 1-3. Wow pretty awesome.

Or Cro-Cop. Gabriel Gonzaga introduced him to UFC pretty nicely.

No, but you have to understand that there are MANY more components in MMA than there is the sports you're discussing. What makes MMA unique is the combination of skills and training you need to be successful - that's the key difference between MMA and other sports. So really, comparing them to swimming and running is dumb as hell.

What makes someone like Fedor dominant is not just his record in Pride, lol. It's the manner in which he has won, the method(s) he has won, his performance in other aspects/disciplines of MMA, his overall record, and his unique training backround & discipline choice among other things. To say he isn't as dominant as BJ Penn just because he isn't in TEH UFCZORZ kinda shows your lack of knowledge on the subject of MMA as a whole (not that I'm claiming to be an expert). If you don't believe me, go visit the MMA section (if you dare).

UFC isn't the end all of MMA, that's my main point. It's still very young and the sport is very fresh and until it continues to grow over a large period of time, its best not to make judgment on a particular fighter just because they're not in a certain league.

SwagMorris
08-22-2009, 08:53 PM
No, but you have to understand that there are MANY more components in MMA than there is the sports you're discussing. What makes MMA unique is the combination of skills and training you need to be successful - that's the key difference between MMA and other sports. So really, comparing them to swimming and running is dumb as hell.

You're so fuking dumb. It's not comparing the actual sport, it's comparing being dominant in a sport. How is that so hard to understand.


What makes someone like Fedor dominant is not just his record in Pride, lol. It's the manner in which he has won, the method(s) he has won, his performance in other aspects/disciplines of MMA, his overall record, and his unique training backround & discipline choice among other things. To say he isn't as dominant as BJ Penn just because he isn't in TEH UFCZORZ kinda shows your lack of knowledge on the subject of MMA as a whole (not that I'm claiming to be an expert). If you don't believe me, go visit the MMA section (if you dare).

He has beaten scrubs. Feel free to overlook each fighter he's fought. Yeah he dominated the weaker Pride fighters in the weaker weight class. Great.

Penn has beaten the best fighters in the world. Lightweight is arguably the best weight class in all of MMA (even though welterweight is better in my opinion). He has 1 single loss in his weight class which he avenged with a rear naked choke of all things.


UFC isn't the end all of MMA, that's my main point. It's still very young and the sport is very fresh and until it continues to grow over a large period of time, its best not to make judgment on a particular fighter just because they're not in a certain league.

You keep telling yourself that. You want to keep overlooking the facts that Pride fighters get dominated by UFC fighters so you can keep believing your dumbass opinion, be my guest. I won't waste any time over it.

Mafiafolife77
08-22-2009, 09:03 PM
^^ LMAO just because this dude hasn't seen or heard of any of the names Fedor has beaten, they're automatically "scrubs". your knowledge of MMA as a whole is garbage so keep watching SpikeTV every day while wearing your cutoff Tapout shirt so you can show off that queer tattoo you have but just remember this: you're the UFC worshipping f@ggot that the entire Misc clowns every day. Looks like you're lost.

But just for ****s and giggles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedor_Emelianenko#Mixed_martial_arts_record

Not that you're too much of a stubborn f@ggot to look/care/make excuses about the link or anything :rolleyes:

Peace.

Mafiafolife77
08-22-2009, 09:09 PM
ou want to keep overlooking the facts that Pride fighters get dominated by UFC fighters

rofl.

you mean like anderson silva?? :D
or maybe Dan Henderson???

SwagMorris
08-22-2009, 09:28 PM
^^ LMAO just because this dude hasn't seen or heard of any of the names Fedor has beaten, they're automatically "scrubs". your knowledge of MMA as a whole is garbage so keep watching SpikeTV every day while wearing your cutoff Tapout shirt so you can show off that queer tattoo you have but just remember this: you're the UFC worshipping f@ggot that the entire Misc clowns every day. Looks like you're lost.

But just for ****s and giggles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedor_Emelianenko#Mixed_martial_arts_record

Not that you're too much of a stubborn f@ggot to look/care/make excuses about the link or anything :rolleyes:

Peace.

Misc clowns on me everyday? http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=118319351

Yup, Emelianenko is the greatest Pride fighter ever. Never argued that. When he beats a legit UFC opponent, I'll admit I'm wrong. Too bad the only one even remote to that in his weight class is Lesnar.


rofl.

you mean like anderson silva?? :D
or maybe Dan Henderson???

Silva has 5 whole Pride fights. Not exactly a Pride fighter dummy.
I'll give you Henderson though.

Lol at your comment about my tattoo though. Good to see you're not ashamed for being fat and out of shape (inb4 played out e-thug comment). Didn't you say you "control your weight just fine". Can't believe people actually aim for that. inb4 ridiculous skinny arms joke. Yup your arms are "bigger" than mine. Not hard when you have 25 percent body fat.

Calhexas
08-23-2009, 08:30 PM
There is no doubt that BJ is more dominant the Fedor. Not even close. This isn't even up for debate.

omg.

I don't know which facepalm pic to use first.


You may think you're an exercise guru, but don't even try to pull **** like that. Ignoring one's comments on a subject is a completely different thing than not having any clue about what one is talking about. It's lactic acid. Any newby who has read their first book on exercise knows what it is. Stop acting like you've just unraveled the Dead Sea Scrolls and you're the only one who knows what they say inside.

It's not knowing what lactic acid simply is, its knowing how it works, what kind of events cause the greatest build up, and how it is removed from the body.

If you studied anything past the latest muscle and fitness, or the broscience on these boards, you'd know what I'm talking about.

Again, if you understood at all any of the principles I'm discussing (rather than just the definition of lactic acid itself) then you wouldn't be arguing this right now.

It's that simple. The way Phelps performed with such short rest periods is ridiculous. Absolutely off the charts in terms of true athleticism.


I ignored it because as I've already stated, Usain Bolt dominating his competition>>>Phelps.

Phelps won 8 medals. He was 8-0 in his events. How is that not him dominating his competition. His competition even had superior equipment, and Phelps still beat them. His recent losses have ONLY been to those with an equipment advantage...and his opponents acknowledge this. Phelps is fighting uphill battles...Bolt is on a much more level playing field.


Hell Paul Biedermann is better than Phelps right now. He beat him in the same race and took his WR like 3 weeks ago (see WR's in swimming being broke on a meet to meet basis)

He's better in one event. And he was wearing the faster suit. Biedermann recognized this fact. He even said he'd like to race Phelps without the suit to see if he could do the same thing.


edit: lol @ the 100m butterfly WR being set on 3 different occasions this year alone

lol @ how uneven the swimming playing field is. You said that the swimming competition isn't as high as the running competition. Considering all the different advantages one can get in swimming by just wearing different clothes, that is ridiculous. Swimming conditions are several times more difficult to reproduce.

sprinkles
08-24-2009, 04:32 AM
Bolt is an amazingly gifted sprinter. What he does on the track is incredible. Will he improve and continue to break records and win races. Most likely. Will he go down in history as one of if not THE most dominant track and field stars. Again Most likely. Will he be regarded as THE MOST DOMINANT ATHLETE OF ALL TIME, which is what the initial statement makes. Possibly, but I sincerely doubt it.
You can make an identical point for Michael Phelps in the water.

In a sport of milliseconds there will inevitably be someone coming up who will best your time. Maybe months down the line, maybe years, maybe not even in our lifetime but eventually it will almost always happen. Phelps and Bolt both blew the competition away with their performances, true, Bolt by a wider margin of time, but it doesn't detract from what either athlete has done.


As for comparisons to MMA
-Fedor, while an amazing fighter at Heavyweight has not fought a legitimate threat to him in the past few years. Good fighters, MAYBE. Great opponents....NO.

-BJ Penn holds a somewhat lackluster record for a top tier fighter, but in sheer terms of skill he is superior to virtually everyone he has faced (NOT everyone, but most)
However his motivation and training have been questioned as to why his record is up and down. When he is motivated, he has shown he is one of the best in the sport.

-Anderson Silva is IMO THE most dominant MMA fighter over the past 3 years. 10 wins over UFC opponents including Ex-Title holders, top contenders, larger men, stronger men. He has crushed every fighter he has faced except for 2.

I only mention these three due to their appearance earlier in the thread. Are these 3 men dominant in there sport? Yes. There are others we could list for dominance, but that would be to waste time. The simple fact is that NO MMA fighter has been dominant to the point that this thread is meant to illustrate. MMA ITSELF hasn't been around long enough (under 20 years) to truly be a factor in this discussion.


As far as Tiger, yes he is a superior golfer. He has the skill and age that COULD potentially allow him to become the single most prolific player in golf history. However in decades past you could have argued the same point for Palmer, Nicklaus, Hogan, Hagen...etc

As Kethnaab pointed out with his Pictures of, Karelin, Gretzky, Louis, Coleman, dominance is subject to interpretation. I WILL say that Karelin was a pretty impressive specimen when it comes to dominance within their sport. 13 years undefeated, last 6 without losing a point.....Hard to see Bolt going 13 years without losing a race.....Before you get upset, I KNOW sprinting is more physically taxing than greco roman wrestling, I'm just illustrating about the interpretation of the word dominance.

You could also look at Michael Jordan, or Wilt Chamberlain.....Mickey Mantle or Babe Ruth.....Joe Namath or Johnny Unitas....all dominant players in their own professions, and all rightfully deserving of a place at the top of any sane persons top athletes of all time list, although I will not even begin to think about said order on that list.

As stated by LebronJ earlier...This is comparing apples to oranges yes, but isn't that the entire purpose of the thread?


My argument is simple, but not how you are seeing things. You are choosing to see that one individuals (Bolt) accomplishments over the past few years, and in particular the last 2, will mark him as the greatest athlete of all time against people who dominated their particular sport for years, and sometimes decades straight. Every year you could make up a GAoAT list, but it would be subject to scrutiny and argument by almost every single person who sees it. Also with the way records drop every year, it could be constantly changing.


Years down the line we will have a much better picture of where either Bolt or Phelps stand whether it be near or on top of this GAoAT list, but for right now, it is premature to mark either Bolt OR Phelps as the greatest athlete of all time.

Afroclipse
08-24-2009, 04:52 AM
After reading this thread I have come to the conclusion that most of you are confusing winning with domination. I will show you the difference:

Here is a winner like Phelps

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2qJ_GVLMWA


Here is a dominantion, unquestionable and competitionlessness

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THmqR02sY9k

sprinkles
08-24-2009, 05:14 AM
After reading this thread I have come to the conclusion that most of you are confusing winning with domination. I will show you the difference:

Here is a winner like Phelps

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2qJ_GVLMWA


Here is a dominantion, unquestionable and competitionlessness

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THmqR02sY9k


FYI....
Dominance : State of being Dominant.
Dominant : commanding, controlling, or prevailing over all others
Prevail : to gain ascendancy through strength or superiority : triumph
Triumph : Victory or Conquest

The two words are inherently linked together. Just saying.

If you want to argue further, we can look at varying degrees of domination, but it all amounts to the same basic principle.


I will not argue that Tyson was a destructive force for the first part of his career, but post 1990, he wasn't anywhere near the boxer he had been. For that matter if we are talking boxing, why not Ali ?

Popcorn_fart
08-24-2009, 06:37 AM
lol at these tools naming MMA fighters. Im a big fan but where talking best athlete of all time hear. Which means M Ali, Pele, Maradona, Michael Jordan, and now Usain Bolt. I mean breaking records with ease at the age of 22 even flashing a smile to the crowd and looking around to see if anyones close is just insane. He killed Michael Johnsons record with ease and hes got 2 more olmypics ahead of him. And hes 6ft5 us big men dominate everything now we even faster than manlets :D

Hishiad
08-24-2009, 06:49 AM
Let's not forget here that Michael Phelps is only 24. (2 years older than Bolt)


And in his swimming career he's held World swimmer of the year 5 times since 2003
American swimmer of the year 7 times since 2001
Currently holds 6 world records and 5 american records
He has also held 37 world records 29 individual and 8 relay records.

Holds 20 total gold metals from Olympics & World Championships
Holds 6 gold from Athens 2004
Holds 8 gold from Bejing 2008


Usain Bolt holds 6 total gold medals (non Junior) right now. 3 from Bejing and 3 from Berlin.

He is the most dominant sprinter ever in his 2 events, but to be the most dominant athlete you'd have to be top in more than 2 events.

I mean if he can dominante these events...may be he's in the same conversation
100 m
200 m
400 m
110 metres hurdles
4 x 100
50,55,60 (even though they are indoor only)


I mean it's not his fault that there's not as many events so can't necessarily fault him for that. My fault is he's only recently showed up as a top sprinter. Phelps was impressive over 2 olympics and still could compete in a few more before it's all said and done.

But if Bolt stays on his current pace and continues to dominate the events he does and adds the 400 by the next olympics (and if he shows well there) He'll easily be in the argument and hands down the most dominant runner of all time. Hard to argue with 14 gold medals in the Olympics and next closest only has 9. Bolt has only 3 at this point

railgunner22
08-24-2009, 06:55 AM
Emelianenko Fedor

Afroclipse
08-24-2009, 10:33 PM
FYI....
Dominance : State of being Dominant.
Dominant : commanding, controlling, or prevailing over all others
Prevail : to gain ascendancy through strength or superiority : triumph
Triumph : Victory or Conquest

The two words are inherently linked together. Just saying.

If you want to argue further, we can look at varying degrees of domination, but it all amounts to the same basic principle.


I will not argue that Tyson was a destructive force for the first part of his career, but post 1990, he wasn't anywhere near the boxer he had been. For that matter if we are talking boxing, why not Ali ?


He didn't dominate, he won fights, I chose Tyson because he walked in the ring and completely demolished the competition. Look at Usain Bolt, watch all races in the past olympics and see how close they came, then watch Usain's races and you will see the difference. The gap between him and the rest is just unbelievably huge and I have to say that falls under domination.

AFOX
08-25-2009, 04:05 PM
Bolt will never dominante the sport of track and field like the great Edwin Moses did. From 1977 to 1987 he was not beaten in the 400meter hurdles, and broke his own world record 4 times. Bolts WR's might stand a long time, but he will never win all his races for the next 10 years.

jacketfan
08-25-2009, 04:16 PM
Let's not forget here that Michael Phelps is only 24. (2 years older than Bolt)


And in his swimming career he's held World swimmer of the year 5 times since 2003
American swimmer of the year 7 times since 2001
Currently holds 6 world records and 5 american records
He has also held 37 world records 29 individual and 8 relay records.

Holds 20 total gold metals from Olympics & World Championships
Holds 6 gold from Athens 2004
Holds 8 gold from Bejing 2008


Usain Bolt holds 6 total gold medals (non Junior) right now. 3 from Bejing and 3 from Berlin.

He is the most dominant sprinter ever in his 2 events, but to be the most dominant athlete you'd have to be top in more than 2 events.

I mean if he can dominante these events...may be he's in the same conversation
100 m
200 m
400 m
110 metres hurdles
4 x 100
50,55,60 (even though they are indoor only)


I mean it's not his fault that there's not as many events so can't necessarily fault him for that. My fault is he's only recently showed up as a top sprinter. Phelps was impressive over 2 olympics and still could compete in a few more before it's all said and done.

But if Bolt stays on his current pace and continues to dominate the events he does and adds the 400 by the next olympics (and if he shows well there) He'll easily be in the argument and hands down the most dominant runner of all time. Hard to argue with 14 gold medals in the Olympics and next closest only has 9. Bolt has only 3 at this point


so basically, by your definition of dominant. Wilt chamberlain, jordan, ruth, and tiger woods can never be in the conversation as most dominant of all time because they only played "one event"

Hishiad
08-25-2009, 06:29 PM
so basically, by your definition of dominant. Wilt chamberlain, jordan, ruth, and tiger woods can never be in the conversation as most dominant of all time because they only played "one event"

They played a sport. Bolt runs in two events of a sport.


It's like Phelps only swimming butterfly even if he was impossible to beat in that event it wouldn't be fair to call him THE MOST Dominant.


But way to take a statement out of context.

mullineux1
08-25-2009, 07:10 PM
Bolt IS NOT HUMAN !

LebronJ
08-25-2009, 08:55 PM
They played a sport. Bolt runs in two events of a sport.


It's like Phelps only swimming butterfly even if he was impossible to beat in that event it wouldn't be fair to call him THE MOST Dominant.


But way to take a statement out of context.

No but it's still a vaild point. Bolt is doing his "sport" if that makes sense.

The thing is, both have ripped apart their fields in different ways. Phelps won a variety, key word variety, of races, and that takes a broader skill set. Over 8 races, phelps could not be touched. But within the races, he wasn't as dominant. Remeber he won a race by a pinky.

Bolt can not be touched in his events. In a 100m sprint, the closet guy to him EVER, in history, ran a 9.71. It's only a hundred meter races and to be .13 better than the best is massive. Bolt is far and away the best sprinter and no one can be dispute that.

if you are going to use the phelps argument, Bo jackson is pretty damn impressive. He was in two professional sports, won an all star mvp, and was pretty dominant in two completey different skill set sports.

I'm just saying if you are going to use a broader skill set as a rule, in swimming, the skill set are different, but not as different as nfl ro mlb. personally, i think bolt has the edge but that is my PERSONAL perference. To be so good and so fast that everyone before they hit the blocks ALREADY knows they are going to lose, that's pretty damn impressive.

jacketfan
08-25-2009, 09:04 PM
No but it's still a vaild point. Bolt is doing his "sport" if that makes sense.

The thing is, both have ripped apart their fields in different ways. Phelps won a variety, key word variety, of races, and that takes a broader skill set. Over 8 races, phelps could not be touched. But within the races, he wasn't as dominant. Remeber he won a race by a pinky.

Bolt can not be touched in his events. In a 100m sprint, the closet guy to him EVER, in history, ran a 9.71. It's only a hundred meter races and to be .13 better than the best is massive. Bolt is far and away the best sprinter and no one can be dispute that.

if you are going to use the phelps argument, Bo jackson is pretty damn impressive. He was in two professional sports, won an all star mvp, and was pretty dominant in two completey different skill set sports.

I'm just saying if you are going to use a broader skill set as a rule, in swimming, the skill set are different, but not as different as nfl ro mlb. personally, i think bolt has the edge but that is my PERSONAL perference. To be so good and so fast that everyone before they hit the blocks ALREADY knows they are going to lose, that's pretty damn impressive.

this.

and to further it along a little bit, in the 400m relay, phelps was the slowest guy in the pool and still won the gold. Is that being "dominant"

i think alot of people are defining "dominant" as "successful". not by blowing away the competition like me and you are defining it. by their definition, boise state and robert horry are both dominant in their respective sports.

LebronJ
08-25-2009, 09:23 PM
this.

and to further it along a little bit, in the 400m relay, phelps was the slowest guy in the pool and still won the gold. Is that being "dominant"

i think alot of people are defining "dominant" as "successful". not by blowing away the competition like me and you are defining it. by their definition, boise state and robert horry are both dominant in their respective sports.

Yeah that's all i'm saying. Phelps outlasted his comp over some many days, bolt can not be touched. Full stop. No one is close to being on the playing field he is on.

What phelps did is harder to measure though. However bolt is head and shouldrs above his comp

cardac1138
08-26-2009, 10:09 PM
bolts sport isn't popular enough to have him "go down as the most dominant..." i'm not saying he doesn't deserve that title, but he won't get it unless he decides to become a WR in the NFL or something

KingQ
08-27-2009, 01:44 AM
They should make backwards sprint, sideways sprint, sprint with hands behind your head, sprint with your arms crossed, shuffle sprint, closed eyes sprint, and a few more sprint variations in the Olympics to compete with the swimming events. Once Bolt wins gold in all of these categories, he'd have the slight edge over Phelps.

Just sayin'

Another tidbit of info to help this thread along: swimming is only available to a select few who have access to a pool to practice. Running on the other hand, is available to anyone with legs. Therefore, competition in the running events are naturally tougher due to its availability to the number of people around the world. For those who've already got their panties ready to be bunched up, key word is 'competition' is tougher, not the event itself.

johnnyD7
08-27-2009, 10:25 AM
no, look up all of Wayne Gretzky's records, then look at the next closest player, nobody will ever come close to breaking most of them, someone will break bolt's record in 15 years or less