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wraggler
04-18-2003, 01:25 PM
I would like to say I am sorry for the huge upset I created in this bodybuilding forum. I did not take into consideration of people and their beliefs that differed from mine. I wished I did this in a more suddle way. I in no way mean for this but instead wished for a joyous approval and congratulations from other Christians that use this site. However, just to make it clear, I'm not abandoning my belief by saying sorry, only just to make amense with those I have caused feelings of resentment towards the Christian faith. But I am amazed of how many people responded and that might be affected, changing their lives 180 degrees. In addition, I hoped to get a poll of how many Christians are interested in bodybuilding and staying in shape. If I am not already beaten to this, I would like to start a poll asking for our own Christian thread.

Just to set things straight of the meaning of tongues. Speaking in tongues is like a visual that you have the Holy Spirit in you. It does not mean that you have to speak in tongues to have the Holy Spirit residing in you but it is showing to you and others that there is a God and that there is the Holy Spirit. It reassures one of their beliefs and gives them empowerment for Christ.

I wanted to share how the Holy Spirit empowered me with energy and strength. Not only does the Holy Spirit give you strength and power mentally and being a Christian, it also gives you strength physically. Like I said before, I felt this surge of energy when the Holy Spirit was flowing through me when I was on the elliptical machine. Just like when you are trialed with something in your life, the Holy Spirit gives you power to overcome and make better of yourself.

Another reason I posted that statement is because I believe that Christians should make a stand for their beliefs and not just twiddle their thumbs, waiting until next Sunday to go to church. I am not saying that all of you are quiet about the Christian faith but too many times of I have seen people cower and be ashamed of being a Christian. I will admit, I have been ashamed myself too but I have gotten past that embarrassment and that has made me very strong in Christ. I commend those that did speak out on my post, Callin Christians. Nevertheless, being a Christian should be a proud thing, not to be kept secret. Going out into the world and letting people that do not know who Christ is and sharing His love with them. Like that one little children’s' song, "Hide my light under a bush oh no! I am gonna let it shine...” We should follow that saying and carry out through it. Because it is written in the bible that God wishes that every man may be saved. And through us, God does his work in effecting people's lives and providing them with the way to eternal life. That is the whole reason why Jesus died for us on the cross. John 3:16-18 proves that.

The world (hethenistic people) has taken too much control over the way we live our lives. They taken prayer out of schools in the morning; allowed abortions of innocent children; trying to take the 10 commandments off the govt. buildings. I mean this nation was founded on God and is the reason why we are so great of a nation. Taking God out is like taking the base of building of from under it. I am not saying that the US is going to be destroyed in the future just for those that might accuse me of that. Nevertheless, without God, the US can easily be on uneasy grounds. In addition, the issue with Gays and Lesbians, because they speak out and get peoples’ attention, they can get their way sometimes. Correct me if I am wrong but I heard that 10% of the US population are homosexuals and yet they have a big say in politics and getting certain laws passed. I believe the schools in California allow children to be taught about gay and lesbians. In a way, this is saying it is OK for someone to a homosexual and it is not OK! This is dealing with our children, the future of our nation. I am sure most of you already realize this and I hate to bring these things up these things are happening in the US.

On a more positive note, I do agree of starting our own Christian thread about bodybuilding on bodybuilding.com. Why not? That was one of the reasons I started that post. If the site can allow a thread talking about sex and about being a homosexual, why not us Christians commune together on this vast site and talk about our faith. Many times I read a post and it have “F” this and “F” that and after reading it repeatedly we get used to it, desensitized as some might say. As a faith, we are stronger as one when we come together and share God’s glory.

I would like to thank those that have been patient with me and have listened to my thoughts and ideas. I felt like I just needed to get out my opinions and please do not be to offended from what I have said. I hope with what I have said has agreed with most of you and I pray that us Christians spread the faith and let others know of what almighty God has in store from them.

If you would like to talk to me personally, you can instant message with me at, ciac87, or email me at lilsis2269@aol.com. I'd be glad to point out something from the bible and prove to you because that is where I'm backed in my faith.

phreak
04-18-2003, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by wraggler
Correct me if I am wrong but I heard that 10% of the US population are homosexuals and yet they have a big say in politics and getting certain laws passed. I believe the schools in California allow children to be taught about gay and lesbians. In a way, this is saying it is OK for someone to a homosexual and it is not OK!
That's what I like about fervent believers: almost always there is a vile bigot hidden beneath those veils of righteousness...

Veritas
04-18-2003, 01:38 PM
It's against his faith. There is a difference between a bigot and taking a stand on something that is against your belief system. I don’t know him enough to make a call either way.

Just because I like to lift and don’t want an obese guy teaching as an instructor doesn’t make me a begot of overweight people.

irpker
04-18-2003, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by wraggler
The world (hethenistic people) has taken too much control over the way we live our lives. They taken prayer out of schools in the morning; allowed abortions of innocent children; trying to take the 10 commandments off the govt. buildings. I mean this nation was founded on God and is the reason why we are so great of a nation. Taking God out is like taking the base of building of from under it. I am not saying that the US is going to be destroyed in the future just for those that might accuse me of that. Nevertheless, without God, the US can easily be on uneasy grounds. In addition, the issue with Gays and Lesbians, because they speak out and get peoples’ attention, they can get their way sometimes. Correct me if I am wrong but I heard that 10% of the US population are homosexuals and yet they have a big say in politics and getting certain laws passed. I believe the schools in California allow children to be taught about gay and lesbians. In a way, this is saying it is OK for someone to a homosexual and it is not OK! This is dealing with our children, the future of our nation. I am sure most of you already realize this and I hate to bring these things up these things are happening in the US.

This part of your post was the reason the founding fathers of America decided to include the seperation of church and state.

Thank "God" they included it to save us "heathens" from religious zealots like you and John Aschroft.

phreak
04-18-2003, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by Veritas
It's against his faith. There is a difference between a bigot and taking a stand on something that is against your belief system.
" ...: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices"
But fair enough. Provided he does not imply (or openly state) that his belief system is the ONLY way to be a good person, or have a fulfilling life.


Just because I like to lift and don’t want an obese guy teaching as an instructor doesn’t make me a begot of overweight people.
But why don't you want an obese person for a trainer? It must be that you associate their obesity with a negative value of some sort.

BlakeOleus
04-18-2003, 01:59 PM
Dear god. People who talk in tongues are either skitzophrenic, delusional, or both.

Evangalism is FAKE. Give me a break, talking in tongues, faith healing...it's all a SCAM.

Don't believe me? Check these links out. You're crazy buddy, why don't you get an education and realize that you are just part of the ignorant public?

http://fakefaithhealers.com/Hinn_integrity.htm

http://www.bible.ca/tongues-popoff-unmasked.ram <-- excuse the ****ty quality, but watch the whole thing and it shows you how faith healing really works.

http://www.bible.ca/tongues-benny-hinn-bbc-slays-25-people-56k.ram <--- haahahhaha

rofl. Ignorant people who believe in **** like that should be shot. You say "god" is the foundation of this country? How can we be built upon something that is intangible? This country provides freedom of religion, and beliefs. Then you come along and say it's not right to be gay, although even animals in nature are gay. Who the hell are you to judge what is right and wrong?

This is why I hate Christians. Most (note, not all) are ignorant, misinformed, and bigoted.

Y2J
04-18-2003, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by irpker
This part of your post was the reason the founding fathers of America decided to include the seperation of church and state.

Thank "God" they included it to save us "heathens" from religious zealots like you and John Aschroft.
I'm not taking a stand in this either way, but "separation of church and state" was not actually in the Constitution..I always thought it was too, but in civics class a few years back, I learned that that phrase was something taken out of a letter James Madison wrote to somebody. Just interjecting that for you guys...I really don't want in the middle of this..I'm listening to suicidal dream by silverchair, so anything i say will probably sound kinda..depressed..suicidal, i dunno, i just dont wanna argue.

wraggler
04-18-2003, 02:37 PM
blakeoleus--Dear god. People who talk in tongues are either skitzophrenic, delusional, or both.

Evangalism is FAKE. Give me a break, talking in tongues, faith healing...it's all a SCAM.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you can say something of like that then I can understand that you haven't really experienced the holy spirit. speaking in tongues is only a sign that you have the holy spirit residing in you. it was not at all meant to respulse people away from chrisitanity.

I have seen people be maraculously (ignore the spelling) healed, I have recieved the holy spirit, i have been exposed to things that 100% convinces me that I'm going in the right direction. From this do not assume that I'm trying to be almighty this is not the intention but to try and let people know about Jesus.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
blakeoleus--"although even animals in nature are gay."

Well animals do not know the difference from right and wrong, they act purely on instinct. Humans have a mind and can understand if they're doing something wrong or not. and if guys were made to love guys and women to love other women, I'm sure they would have had the right parts to go with it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
blakeoleus--"Then you come along and say it's not right to be gay, although even animals in nature are gay. Who the hell are you to judge what is right and wrong?"

What the bible says about things allows me to judge what is right and wrong. It says it in there, 1 Corinthians 5:9 about gays and homosexuals.

The scriptures are real, but my opinions are my opinions. That main point of that one paragraph was not made to criticize but to motivate christians in speaking out.

wraggler
04-18-2003, 02:39 PM
Just remember, what ever you have done, Jesus loves you with open arms.

BlakeOleus
04-18-2003, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by wraggler
If you can say something of like that then I can understand that you haven't really experienced the holy spirit. speaking in tongues is only a sign that you have the holy spirit residing in you. it was not at all meant to respulse people away from chrisitanity.

I have seen people be maraculously (ignore the spelling) healed, I have recieved the holy spirit, i have been exposed to things that 100% convinces me that I'm going in the right direction. From this do not assume that I'm trying to be almighty this is not the intention but to try and let people know about Jesus.

Dear god.
No, I haven't experienced the holy spirit. And when you say you "experienced the holy spirit", what you experienced was a plethora of chemicals running throughout your brain. Every time you get excited, it's a flow of epinephrine flowing through your neuropathways. Every time you feel happy, it's your dopamine exiting your vesicles, and entering your dopamine axon terminals.

Whatever you felt is the end result of chemicals in your brain. Speaking in tongues happens when ignorant believers get excited and start babbling nonsense, becuase they've seen others do it.

Did you even watch those video clips I posted? Or are you too afraid to believe the truth, that faith healing is a scam?

I bet you watch TBN also.



Well animals do not know the difference from right and wrong, they act purely on instinct. Humans have a mind and can understand if they're doing something wrong or not. and if guys were made to love guys and women to love other women, I'm sure they would have had the right parts to go with it.

Uh...animals don't know right from wrong? What about monkeys? They can reason cognitevly, which we (define) as what seperates us from animals. What is right or wrong is taught to us through society, animals learn this also. When you beat an animal for pissing on the floor, it learns that pissing on the floor is wrong, just like we know that "killing" a person is wrong. But in other cultures, human sacrifices aren't "wrong", so they don't see it as wrong...get it?

You don't "choose" to be gay, it's just what you like, just like you don't "choose" to have brown hair, be short, or have a morbid fascination for the color green.

Telling someone that being gay is wrong...thats like telling a skitzophrenic that being a skitzo is wrong...give me a break.



What the bible says about things allows me to judge what is right and wrong. It says it in there, 1 Corinthians 5:9 about gays and homosexuals.

The scriptures are real, but my opinions are my opinions. That main point of that one paragraph was not made to criticize but to motivate christians in speaking out.

Who cares what the bible says? You can't base anything off the bible and apply it to other people, you can only do that to yourself. Thats like people who use religious texts to justify killings, wars, "Jihads", etc. It's a bunch of garbage, just because some book says that being gay is "wrong" doesn't mean anything.

supersize77
04-18-2003, 03:04 PM
Who cares what the bible says? You can't base anything off the bible and apply it to other people, you can only do that to yourself. Thats like people who use religious texts to justify killings, wars, "Jihads", etc. It's a bunch of garbage, just because some book says that being gay is "wrong" doesn't mean anything.

Depends on your worldview. You have to examine the evidence. Believeing something just because its in the Bible is pointless unless you 1st beleive that the Bible is true-until you have made this determination I wouldnt worry about the details.

wraggler
04-18-2003, 03:28 PM
To blakeoleuos:
Ok, we each have our views. Obviously it is different from each other. I just felt like I had to make a statement and you made yours. But this bickering cant go on forever.

But I do find your points interesting. and thinking about, it's hard to discuss about something when all the variables are not on the same level. i believe the bible speaks the truth and you disagree. I dont know if you belive in God or not. Its like seeing things from two different worlds.

I'm not replying to your last post not because I don't have the answers but our discussion was getting us know where. I would of came up with something and then you would have came up with something else to contradict it. All I want to do is let others know about Jesus and if they interested, let them persue it. I did not intend to flame people.

rleeson
04-18-2003, 08:12 PM
Wraggler: You didn't really cause anything. It's been a while since the seculars and religious squared off your post was just there at the right time... We have these battles every couple of month and most everyone gets it out of there system for a while. Neither side can prove their point of view is right and they end when acouple of people agree to a draw or people lose interest. It's really just a form of meantal mastrubation. A fun way to waste time.

Rob--

BlakeOleus
04-18-2003, 08:37 PM
wraggler, no.

The fact that you were overcome with the holy spirit and started babbling nonsense is comical.

I don't think you have the capacity to flame anyone if you say "Eloto-moko krecherya undala lala"
haahha

ElShaddai4EvR
04-18-2003, 08:59 PM
What is right or wrong is taught to us through society, animals learn this also. When you beat an animal for pissing on the floor, it learns that pissing on the floor is wrong, just like we know that "killing" a person is wrong. But in other cultures, human sacrifices aren't "wrong", so they don't see it as wrong...get it?


Telling someone that being gay is wrong...thats like telling a skitzophrenic that being a skitzo is wrong...give me a break.

Were you taught that through society?

BlakeOleus
04-18-2003, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by ElShaddai4EvR
Were you taught that through society?
No, not really. Society tends to think of homosexuals in a negative manner, I take the side of live and let live.

But then again, if by society you mean every social aspect, educational aspect, and physical aspect that I've encountered in this country, then yes, by an indirect means.

TricepsNGirls
04-18-2003, 11:16 PM
wraggler it's totally cool that you are able to use your faith in God to help you enhance and strengthen your mind, but i think you are taking it a bit too far in implying that everyone should believe what you believe. You stated that you have your own opinions on the matter, and many other people would have contradictiing ones. I am now Atheist, but i've been to a Christian camp once, and the experience was horrible for me. I was completely disconnected from the entire crowd, and the continuous talk about God and sacrifice, and us as his slave, made me extremely uncomfortable. I don't oppose you, but i also don't believe that religion should be implemented in school. Peace

ugotme
04-18-2003, 11:24 PM
just because some book says that being gay is "wrong" doesn't mean anything.

And because you continue to say something is natural when it isn't doesn't mean anything. Correct me if I'm wrong, the ******* is a **** faucet right? Is there any biological reason to label it a dick recepticle? Besides the obvious animalistic pleasure (which can be accomplished with just about anything imaginable). Homosexuality is a product of environment and uninhibited sexual appetites. Some people float around "facts" that people are predisposed to homosexuality... People are also predisposed to alcoholism, ****philia, drug abuse, and obesity. If you make every attempt to live in the absence of God, it's easy to accept society and their "truths".

BlakeOleus
04-18-2003, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by ugotme
[B]

And because you continue to say something is natural when it isn't doesn't mean anything. Correct me if I'm wrong, the ******* is a **** faucet right? Is there any biological reason to label it a dick recepticle? Besides the obvious animalistic pleasure (which can be accomplished with just about anything imaginable). Homosexuality is a product of environment and uninhibited sexual appetites. Some people float around "facts" that people are predisposed to homosexuality... People are also predisposed to alcoholism, ****philia, drug abuse, and obesity. If you make every attempt to live in the absence of God, it's easy to accept society and their "truths".

Oh, I'm sorry that you're perfect and you can judge everyone and decide whats right/wrong.

Remember, slavery was deemed "right" at one point in time.

Being homosexual is a persons trait, just like if they have a mental disease like skitzophrenia or multiple personalities. How can you tell them that it's wrong? It's who they are.

You are ignorant for not understanding this.

phreak
04-19-2003, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by ugotme
Homosexuality is a product of environment and uninhibited sexual appetites.
Uninhibited is the key word here. Because that implies that it IS natural, i.e., god's will. God made me bisexual. Why should I change if that is what god intended me to be?

Y2J
04-19-2003, 10:18 AM
Alright, i'm in, suicidal dream is over. God didn't make you anything..God made you, and gave you a free will to be something. It's up to you if you're gay, or bi, or straight. You can't say "God made me to drive a crappy car." Coz in reality it's all up to you what kind of car you drive. So really you can't be blaming God if you're gay, that's just irresponsible. Either that or you're ashamed of it. I'm not gay, so this is kinda hard seeing from that point of view, but I tried.

Veritas
04-19-2003, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by BlakeOleus
Ignorant people who believe in **** like that should be shot. You say "god" is the foundation of this country? How can we be built upon something that is intangible?

Question: Are you married? If so, you are married based on the emotions between you and your wife..... er life-partner. So, when your spouce or your parents tell each other they love one another, do you yell "Love is bull**** because I cant touch it!"?

ElShaddai4EvR
04-19-2003, 11:44 AM
Question: Are you married? If so, you are married based on the emotions between you and your wife..... er life-partner. So, when your spouce or your parents tell each other they love one another, do you yell "Love is bull**** because I cant touch it!"?

Exactly!!! Good rebuttal!!!!

rleeson
04-19-2003, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by Veritas
Question: Are you married? If so, you are married based on the emotions between you and your wife..... er life-partner. So, when your spouce or your parents tell each other they love one another, do you yell "Love is bull**** because I cant touch it!"? A person can have knowledge/experence of their love for another but they do not know the motovations of an others actions. All he can know is that the other acts like they may love me... Belief that you are loved is a leap of faith...

You tell me you believe some thing I have no way of knowing if you do or not... I can observe if you act in a manner that affirms your claim but I can't know your motovation...

Rob--

BlakeOleus
04-19-2003, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by Veritas
Question: Are you married? If so, you are married based on the emotions between you and your wife..... er life-partner. So, when your spouce or your parents tell each other they love one another, do you yell "Love is bull**** because I cant touch it!"?

Uh...
You can see, and touch your wife. You are with her because she makes you feel a certain way. Whether she loves you or not, you don't know. And it doesn't really matter, because you are in the marriage for yourself (for the way the partner makes you feel).

Not saying that doing nice things for your wife doesn't make you happy also (because ultimately, you wouldn't do them if it didn't make you happy).

All love is, chemicals running throughout your brain providing you with a particular emotional state of consciousness. It's just like having a "cat" who loves you. Does your cat really love you, or love what you do for it?

wraggler
04-19-2003, 04:15 PM
it all I need to say is that I'm glad this discussion didn't explode into something ugly. I enjoyed views on both sides even though some of the language wasn't required.

derekmac
04-19-2003, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by BlakeOleus
Dear god. People who talk in tongues are either skitzophrenic, delusional, or both.

Evangalism is FAKE. Give me a break, talking in tongues, faith healing...it's all a SCAM.

Don't believe me? Check these links out. You're crazy buddy, why don't you get an education and realize that you are just part of the ignorant public?

http://fakefaithhealers.com/Hinn_integrity.htm

http://www.bible.ca/tongues-popoff-unmasked.ram <-- excuse the ****ty quality, but watch the whole thing and it shows you how faith healing really works.

http://www.bible.ca/tongues-benny-hinn-bbc-slays-25-people-56k.ram <--- haahahhaha

rofl. Ignorant people who believe in **** like that should be shot. You say "god" is the foundation of this country? How can we be built upon something that is intangible? This country provides freedom of religion, and beliefs. Then you come along and say it's not right to be gay, although even animals in nature are gay. Who the hell are you to judge what is right and wrong?

This is why I hate Christians. Most (note, not all) are ignorant, misinformed, and bigoted.

Please don't lump some of the real wackos (i.e. Benny Hinn) in with those who believe in Jesus. I find it interesting that people preach about tolerance. Tolerance, that is, unless you happen to be a Christian.

Benny Hinn is a fraud. I for one am a born-again Christian, and I pass judgment on no one.

BTW, how are animals "in nature" gay?

supersize77
04-19-2003, 07:07 PM
Its also interesting how most people who advocate a lifestyle that is contrary to the Bible (homosexual, etc.) seem to respond in a very emotional and defensive manner (like something touch a VERY sensitive nerve); they reveal themselves as very angry emotional people-but not factual people. There seems to be no solid foundation on which they base their actions and beliefs (unlike Christians who have the Bible as a foundation), they appear to operate on impulse.

sconroy
04-19-2003, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by BlakeOleus
Dear god.
No, I haven't experienced the holy spirit. And when you say you "experienced the holy spirit", what you experienced was a plethora of chemicals running throughout your brain. Every time you get excited, it's a flow of epinephrine flowing through your neuropathways. Every time you feel happy, it's your dopamine exiting your vesicles, and entering your dopamine axon terminals.

Whatever you felt is the end result of chemicals in your brain. Speaking in tongues happens when ignorant believers get excited and start babbling nonsense, becuase they've seen others do it.

Did you even watch those video clips I posted? Or are you too afraid to believe the truth, that faith healing is a scam?


if you believe that speaking in tounges is a "scam" you havent read the verses that speak of it in the bible. i do agree that tbn is full of crappy pastors, that are trying to gain as much plublicity as possible. their version of toungues is fake and not true, however speaking in tounges is a very real thing. its meant to be spoken between God and yourself, nobody else, it is meant to be done in quiet with God, (unless their is a translator present).

Next, God created those chemicals that you speak of. you like to make jokes about the christian religion, however unless you repent and ask Jesus Christ into your heart, when you die u will be the joke.

supersize77
04-19-2003, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by sconroy
if you believe that speaking in tounges is a "scam" you havent read the verses that speak of it in the bible. i do agree that tbn is full of crappy pastors, that are trying to gain as much plublicity as possible. their version of toungues is fake and not true, however speaking in tounges is a very real thing. its meant to be spoken between God and yourself, nobody else, it is meant to be done in quiet with God, (unless their is a translator present).

Next, God created those chemicals that you speak of. you like to make jokes about the christian religion, however unless you repent and ask Jesus Christ into your heart, when you die u will be the joke.

I talked about this in another thread-but I'll say it again. Talking in tongues in the Bible occured when God gave men the ability to talk in a language of another people to give them the Gospel. It was for the purpose of edifying those present with the Gospel of Jesus Christ-not a bunch of unitelligible spritual babble that no one could understand; the Holy Spirit merely allowed men to give the Gospel in another cultures native tongue so that they might believe. The people who speak in tongues (the uninteligible babble) today are doing so on the basis of incorrectly interpreted scripture. They may or may not be sincere-but they are sincerly wrong in their interpretation of scripture. As far as translators-these people are treading on dangerous ground if they say that they can give someone extra-biblical revelation from God. The bible is complete and is all we need to operate in this world-if anyone denies this they are undermining God's Word and the suffinciency of scripture. This is not my opinion this is fact-many true Christians are mislead by false teachers and or faulty interpretation of scripture.

phreak
04-19-2003, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by supersize77
Its also interesting how most people who advocate a lifestyle that is contrary to the Bible (homosexual, etc.) seem to respond in a very emotional and defensive manner
I am not emoptional, but yes, I might be somewhat defensive. Why? I dunno. Maybe it has something to do with 2500 years of relentless persecution by the oh-so-righteous believers?


Originally posted by supersize77 There seems to be no solid foundation on which they base their actions and beliefs (unlike Christians who have the Bible as a foundation), they appear to operate on impulse.
Not quite on impulse. It is just that atheists and agnostics have the courage to take responsibility for our own lives. We can't point to a work of fiction and say: "I am a good person because I follow these rules". We have to think for ourselves and judge every situation based on it's merits.

supersize77
04-20-2003, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by phreak
I am not emoptional, but yes, I might be somewhat defensive. Why? I dunno. Maybe it has something to do with 2500 years of relentless persecution by the oh-so-righteous believers?


Not quite on impulse. It is just that atheists and agnostics have the courage to take responsibility for our own lives. We can't point to a work of fiction and say: "I am a good person because I follow these rules". We have to think for ourselves and judge every situation based on it's merits.

I appreciate your thoughtful response. Christians have also been persecuted, killed and tortured in the most inhumand ways imaginable throughout history. Saying that bible is a "work of fiction" is just plain ignorant even from a secular point of view. Even if you don't belive in the Diety of Christ or even the existance of God, the bible is still full of historically documented facts concerning the existence of people and places. So please, don't make blanket statements like that. As far as being a "good person because I follow these rules" I am not and neither is anyone else despite what they may claim. I'm a wretched worthless person just like you and everyone else; the only difference is that I have experienced the saving grace of Christ in my life which has set me free from sin and death and taken the "spiritual blinders" off my eyes. My good works or being a good person is just the fruit of a redeemed heart (but I'm far from perfect). We all have free will and are all accountable for our actions. You judge every situation through your own particular worldview (what do you claim by the way, is it atheist or agnostic?) and I see through a scriptural or Christian worldview. Bottom line, I don't think I'm any better than you, have only been a Christian since 1999 (Got saved in the Marines-and the military lifestyle is less than moral for the most part) but, I defintely perfer living according to the bible and the piece and stability it has brought to my life in contrast to the dark and chaotic life I lived before when I judged everything according to its own merit with nothing solid to base it on.

wildman536
04-20-2003, 04:12 AM
Originally posted by wraggler
Just remember, what ever you have done, Jesus loves you with open arms. BUMP!!!

rleeson
04-20-2003, 08:11 AM
Why is it that groups that were at some time persecuted almost always feel that gives they the right/obigation to persecute some other group.

Why can't people allow others to live in peace and respect each other...

If the "Christian God" is one of love and compassion, why are some many self proclaimed Christian so hateful, and intolorent.

Rob--

supersize77
04-20-2003, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by rleeson
Why is it that groups that were at some time persecuted almost always feel that gives they the right/obigation to persecute some other group.

I don't think that evengelism is nesecarily the same thing as persecution-although I know some Christians have been inapropriate in trying to express (force) their beliefs on others

Why can't people allow others to live in peace and respect each other...

B/c the world is a fallen and imperfect place. Try asking that question to the guy who breaks in your house.

If the "Christian God" is one of love and compassion, why are some many self proclaimed Christian so hateful, and intolorent.

B/c they are still quite capable of sinning-Christians are not perfect, and when they do sin its because they chose not to live according to the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. To be honest, perhaps the most intolerant religious group is radical muslims-they simply will not tolerate Christians (or other religions) in
the same country or world with them, and they will kill you for not believeing what they believe.
Rob--

supersize77
04-20-2003, 10:49 AM
Sorry about how my answers got jumbled up w/your qoutes, I havent quite figured out how to properly use qoutes in my responses.

Veritas
04-20-2003, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by rleeson
If the "Christian God" is one of love and compassion, why are some many self proclaimed Christian so hateful, and intolerant.

Rob--

Good point and one Christians shouldn’t gloss over. I think that it boils down to Christian or Atheist, in the end we're just humans. We have a bad habit of not seeing our own faults, pushing our beliefs/lack of beliefs off on other people, claming to be one thing while we're another. It's just like the millions of people who claim be great drivers, yet they cant keep it on the pavement.

I also think that one of the MAIN problems is people holding Christians up to an unfair standard. Yes, we may be Christians but we all make mistakes and things that go against the idea of being a "little Christ". So, don’t expect every Christian to be perfect when none of us are. I think we hear how imperfect we are in about every sermon ever preached.

Another BAD problem a lot of Christians have, myself included, is remembering that no one sin is greater in the eyes of God than any other. Unfortunately, the way I read the scripture, a sin is a sin is a sin. So, the "sin" of homosexuality is no worse than the "sin" of drunkenness, sloth, or greed.

Please note the " " on the sins for homosexuality. I'm not saying it is or isnt, just using it since it was recently debated

wildman536
04-20-2003, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by Veritas

Another BAD problem a lot of Christians have, myself included, is remembering that no one sin is greater in the eyes of God than any other. Unfortunately, the way I read the scripture, a sin is a sin is a sin. So, the "sin" of homosexuality is no worse than the "sin" of drunkenness, sloth, or greed.

Please note the " " on the sins for homosexuality. I'm not saying it is or isnt, just using it since it was recently debated That is True bro!!

Veritas
04-20-2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by BlakeOleus
Uh...
You can see, and touch your wife. You are with her because she makes you feel a certain way. Whether she loves you or not, you don't know. And it doesn't really matter, because you are in the marriage for yourself (for the way the partner makes you feel).

Not saying that doing nice things for your wife doesn't make you happy also (because ultimately, you wouldn't do them if it didn't make you happy).

All love is, chemicals running throughout your brain providing you with a particular emotional state of consciousness. It's just like having a "cat" who loves you. Does your cat really love you, or love what you do for it?

Your not proving your point here. You can have emotion for something you cannot see or touch. If that thing you love is solid or not is of no matter. It's the Love that is important here.

You say that love is nothing more than a chemical state. That part is obvious and that usualy comes as a responce to such a question from the type of person who thinks that humans are no more than fleshy computers. Without souls and are just a sum of their parts, running off electicity like a toy. If that was all it is, why is life important? We are nothing more than a bunch of carbon and electricity, just like my refridgerator. I really appreciate that my fridge keeps my beer cold, but I dont plan on giving it a ring. Also, I wonder why you would mind if someone killed you, since you arent any more than a robot?

BlakeOleus
04-20-2003, 05:46 PM
Uh...life is what you make it buddy.

If there is some grand plan for us all, prove it.

Humans are comprised of carbon and chemicals.......simply. However profetic of an experience you think you've had when you've "found god", try doing ecstasy and try to find god on that. You'll realize how much more intense it is, due to a chemical state change in your brain.

Veritas
04-20-2003, 07:08 PM
Are you getting weaker? I can barely make a counter to anything you type becuase it has nothing to do with what I last said.

What I was saying is if you consider us nothing more than carbon and chemicals, similar to a crayon, then me killing you should hold no more consiquence than breaking my crayon. People are no more a 'being' than a tree, so if your family member was to be killed by a drunk driver, then it would be the same as me running over a sapling with my mower. Yet, you would be sad at the death of a family member ( a chemical reaction ) yet you expect justice. What's the difference?

And I didnt say anything about a 'grand plan', you just pulled that outa your butt because you know it is unable to be proven. Whats up with that?

BlakeOleus
04-20-2003, 10:17 PM
on an atomical level, it doesn't make a difference.

But we have society, and we are humans, therefore as the beings on this planet who have the most influence, our society chooses to value human life. Killing a person and breaking a crayon are two different things. Between killing a person, and killing a dog, what is really the diff though? Both are living beings. I don't really see a difference, other than we place more value on human life in our society. Other cultures, like the Mayans, placed little value on human life, and killing wasn't a big deal.

Me getting weaker? I think not. You're the one who thinks theres a big guy in the sky who loves you and will welcome you with open arms to a palace of eternal happiness when you die. Rofl.

Veritas
04-20-2003, 10:30 PM
Me getting weaker? I think not. You're the one who thinks theres a big guy in the sky who loves you and will welcome you with open arms to a palace of eternal happiness when you die. Rofl.

Yes. You are getting weaker. While before your posts contained intellect and reason, you have now succumbed to belittlement. Me, I’m still asking legitimate questions.

BlakeOleus
04-20-2003, 10:48 PM
no, you're asking stupid questions.

You know that our society values human life over that of a tree, or a dog. Or a crayon for that matter. Why you're asking is beyond me...

supersize77
04-20-2003, 10:56 PM
Please note the " " on the sins for homosexuality. I'm not saying it is or isnt, just using it since it was recently debated [/B][/QUOTE]

It is. If you bellieve the bible there is no debate on this issue.

wildman536
04-21-2003, 02:23 AM
Well anyway Happy Easter To Everyone!!!

wildman536
04-21-2003, 02:23 AM
Well anyway Happy Easter To Everyone!!!

sara-ana
04-21-2003, 02:26 AM
ditto

Veritas
04-21-2003, 06:30 AM
Originally posted by supersize77
It is. If you bellieve the bible there is no debate on this issue. [/B]

Dont make assumptions. How many times do I have to state that not every Christian follows everyting in the bible? There are no rules concering that so, dont try to use that as an argument. It dosent hold water.

Veritas
04-21-2003, 06:36 AM
Originally posted by BlakeOleus
no, you're asking stupid questions.

You know that our society values human life over that of a tree, or a dog. Or a crayon for that matter. Why you're asking is beyond me...

So, your saying that you don’t agree with society. You cry like a baby when you cut your grass? Bring the clippings to the hospital to try to get them surgically reattached? Or........ do you place the value of human life over that of a tree too? Certainly not, your much too smart for that and you don’t know why society does this silly stuff.

supersize77
04-21-2003, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by Veritas
Dont make assumptions. How many times do I have to state that not every Christian follows everyting in the bible? There are no rules concering that so, dont try to use that as an argument. It dosent hold water.

Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God-1 Cor. 6:9b-11

-Well, it most certainly holds water although I'm sure you'll attempt to justify the above passage.

BlakeOleus
04-21-2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Veritas
So, your saying that you don’t agree with society. You cry like a baby when you cut your grass? Bring the clippings to the hospital to try to get them surgically reattached? Or........ do you place the value of human life over that of a tree too? Certainly not, your much too smart for that and you don’t know why society does this silly stuff.

Um...

Our species are hunters...hunter/gatherers...we kill out of necessity.

Killing anything, if you're not going to use it, is just as bad as murder..hunters are trash. People who kill just for sport...whats the difference between that and killing people for sport? Oh wait...thats what the military is for. Killing people is fine as long as it's an enemy soldier.

rleeson
04-21-2003, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by supersize77
Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God-1 Cor. 6:9b-11

-Well, it most certainly holds water although I'm sure you'll attempt to justify the above passage.

An opinion made by a man... St Paul or someone claiming to be him. How do you make that the the "Word of God" At least Moses had a incendesant bush, even he was the only one to see it or hear it speak to him.

Rob--

supersize77
04-21-2003, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by rleeson
An opinion made by a man... St Paul or someone claiming to be him. How do you make that the the "Word of God" At least Moses had a incendesant bush, even he was the only one to see it or hear it speak to him.

Rob--

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16

-I didn't say it was the "Word of God" the bible does.

derekmac
04-21-2003, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by supersize77
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16

-I didn't say it was the "Word of God" the bible does.

Exactly, bro:)

wildman536
04-21-2003, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by supersize77
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16

-I didn't say it was the "Word of God" the bible does. GOTTA BUMP IT AGAIN!!!

Veritas
04-22-2003, 06:17 AM
I'm trying to show you that even though you tell me one minute that all life (human, animal, plant) is all really the same (only society places value on the, you don’t) yet you have less of a connection between plants and your parents.

You may say that all life is the same, but you value them differently. Even in a society of just you and likeminded people, you still value family more than some ant under foot. You know that is true regardless of the fact that we're just chemicals and electricity. So, you are on both sides of the fence.

Then, rather than respond to what I'm saying, you start talking about our roles as hunter/gatherer? Then you hop to ’murder’ in the name of war? Puuuullease!

It's obvious your painted into a corner. Your just gonna continue to skirt what I am saying, so, screw it. I'll let this be my last post on this thread. I dot feel like holding someone’s hand through a post to make sure they stay on topic, and I don’t plan to.

-Later

BlakeOleus
04-22-2003, 10:18 AM
uh yeah....

You are so ignorant that you have no idea what I'm talking about.

Go back to worshipping your cross, boy.

rleeson
04-22-2003, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by supersize77
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16

-I didn't say it was the "Word of God" the bible does.

Again the statement of a man!! Any one can "claim" to be voicing the "Word of God" that doesn't mean it they are. How long did it take for the Church to openly admit the Earth orbits the Sun and not the other way around... The Vatican knew for a hundred years before they arrested Galalio. They got the idea from the greeks which they claimed was the word of god.... How can you be you believe there aren't more untruths being promoted in the same way...

I'm not say that the Bible is not full of very good ideas, only the when it contradicts demonstrable scientific properties, Science should be viewed as over-ruling 5000year old statements that have been copied and translated to the point that what the author ment has been lost.

Rob--

wildman536
04-22-2003, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by BlakeOleus


Go back to worshipping your cross, boy. No Problem there only we dont Worship the Cross, Its Jesus Bro!!

supersize77
04-22-2003, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by rleeson
Again the statement of a man!! Any one can "claim" to be voicing the "Word of God" that doesn't mean it they are. How long did it take for the Church to openly admit the Earth orbits the Sun and not the other way around... The Vatican knew for a hundred years before they arrested Galalio. They got the idea from the greeks which they claimed was the word of god.... How can you be you believe there aren't more untruths being promoted in the same way...

I'm not say that the Bible is not full of very good ideas, only the when it contradicts demonstrable scientific properties, Science should be viewed as over-ruling 5000year old statements that have been copied and translated to the point that what the author ment has been lost.

Rob--

Nice diversion. You're using the actions of imperfect man in an attempt to undermine the truth of the Bible. Yes, you are correct that certain translations can present things in a manner in which the original author did not intend. Only the origninal manuscripts which were written in Greek and Hebrew are the infalible word of God. Proper translations are still possible by men who study the original language of the original manuscripts. Do you have scripture that states anything about the sun revolving around the earth? There is however some extremely interesting scripture from the book of Job which talks about scientific characteristics of the universe before such facts were scientifically known.

Job 26:7-10
7 He stretches out the north over empty space;
He hangs the earth on nothing.
*(Hangs the earth on nothing. A statement that is accurate, given in ancient time, before scientific verification. This indicates the divine authorship of Scripture).
8 He binds up the water in His thick clouds,
Yet the clouds are not broken under it.
9 He covers the face of His throne,
And spreads His cloud over it.
10 He drew a circular horizon on the face of the waters,
At the boundary of light and darkness.
*(a circular horizon. This describes the earth as a circular globe, another scientifically accurate statement at a time when many thought the world was flat).

-Remember, the book of Job was written long before the church history you were refering to, which by the way is completely irrelevant to the validity of the Bible. Again, don't point to the actions of imperfect man to argue against scripture.

wildman536
04-22-2003, 03:38 PM
BUMP^^^

rleeson
04-22-2003, 04:13 PM
That doesn't change the fact that men are not perfect... No man...Up until a few hundered years ago we didn't have any way of to copy text except by hand... the original books of the Bible were lost. The Dead Sea Scrolls are the closest thing we have and the were written as much a 3000 years after... It's unlikly that they were working from the frist edition of the book of Job now is it. Based of the dead sea scrolls there were numerous transcription and translation error between them and the texts that were used as source material for all existing bibles. If there is a single error there are likely to be others, some we really don't and can't know what the original text said.

5000 years error prone copying and translating and you say it is still the word of god dispite numerous contradiction and inconsistancies. I don't understand why any one wouldn't be skeptical.

Rob--

supersize77
04-22-2003, 04:14 PM
Just be fair there is a verse in Joshua that talks about the sun standing still.

Josh. 10
12 Then Joshua spoke to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel:
“Sun, stand still over Gibeon; And Moon, in the Valley of Aijalon.”
So the sun stood still, And the moon stopped,Till the people had revenge Upon their enemies.

-This is best accepted as an outright, monumental miracle (akin to the parting of the Red Sea, etc). Joshua, moved by the Lord’s will, commanded the sun to delay (Heb., “be still, silent, leave off”). The earth actually stopped revolving or, more likely, the sun moved in the same way to keep perfect pace with the battlefield. The moon also ceased its orbiting. This permitted Joshua’s troops time to finish the battle with complete victory (v. 11).

supersize77
04-22-2003, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by rleeson
That doesn't change the fact that men are not perfect... No man...Up until a few hundered years ago we didn't have any way of to copy text except by hand... the original books of the Bible were lost. The Dead Sea Scrolls are the closest thing we have and the were written as much a 3000 years after... It's unlikly that they were working from the frist edition of the book of Job now is it. Based of the dead sea scrolls there were numerous transcription and translation error between them and the texts that were used as source material for all existing bibles. If there is a single error there are likely to be others, some we really don't and can't know what the original text said.

5000 years error prone copying and translating and you say it is still the word of god dispite numerous contradiction and inconsistancies. I don't understand why any one wouldn't be skeptical.

Rob--

Lets hear some of those numerous contradictions you keep talking about.

supersize77
04-22-2003, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by rleeson
That doesn't change the fact that men are not perfect... No man...Up until a few hundered years ago we didn't have any way of to copy text except by hand... the original books of the Bible were lost. The Dead Sea Scrolls are the closest thing we have and the were written as much a 3000 years after... It's unlikly that they were working from the frist edition of the book of Job now is it. Based of the dead sea scrolls there were numerous transcription and translation error between them and the texts that were used as source material for all existing bibles. If there is a single error there are likely to be others, some we really don't and can't know what the original text said.

5000 years error prone copying and translating and you say it is still the word of god dispite numerous contradiction and inconsistancies. I don't understand why any one wouldn't be skeptical.

Rob--

How can one be sure that the revealed and inspired, written Word of God, which was recognized as canonical by the early church, has been handed down to this day without any loss of material? The battle for the Bible rages, but Scripture has and will continue to outlast its enemies.
God anticipated man’s and Satan’s malice towards the Scripture with divine promises to preserve His Word. The very continued existence of Scripture is guaranteed in Isaiah 40:8, “The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God stands forever” (cf. 1 Pet. 1:25). This even means that no inspired Scripture has been lost in the past and still awaits rediscovery.
The actual content of Scripture will be perpetuated, both in heaven (Ps. 119:89) and on earth (Is. 59:21). Thus the purposes of God, as published in the sacred writings, will never be thwarted, even in the least detail (cf. Matt. 5:18; 24:25; Mark 13:3; Luke 16:17).
"So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it". Is. 55:11.

-So rleeson, the Bible has an answer to all of your questions about its authenticity. If you reject these answers thats your're perogative.

rleeson
04-22-2003, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by supersize77
Just be fair there is a verse in Joshua that talks about the sun standing still.

Josh. 10
12 Then Joshua spoke to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel:
“Sun, stand still over Gibeon; And Moon, in the Valley of Aijalon.”
So the sun stood still, And the moon stopped,Till the people had revenge Upon their enemies.

-This is best accepted as an outright, monumental miracle (akin to the parting of the Red Sea, etc). Joshua, moved by the Lord’s will, commanded the sun to delay (Heb., “be still, silent, leave off”). The earth actually stopped revolving or, more likely, the sun moved in the same way to keep perfect pace with the battlefield. The moon also ceased its orbiting. This permitted Joshua’s troops time to finish the battle with complete victory (v. 11).

You have got to be kidding!!! The only way you could accomplish that trick with out trashing the Earth if not the whole solar system, is to invoke some kind of atmospheric event that allowed reflected to the night side of the planet. It is also generally accepted the part the red sea never happend... It was a much smaller body of water a river or bay reacting to tidal and wind condition or a tsunamii.

If you want to attribute freaky weather to a "God" don't ask the I believe it was done by violating most of the basic rules of physics.

My concept of the force you call "God" is the underlaying structure of space-time the defines those rules.

Rob---

supersize77
04-22-2003, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by rleeson
You have got to be kidding!!! The only way you could accomplish that trick with out trashing the Earth if not the whole solar system, is to invoke some kind of atmospheric event that allowed reflected to the night side of the planet. It is also generally accepted the part the red sea never happend... It was a much smaller body of water a river or bay reacting to tidal and wind condition or a tsunamii.

If you want to attribute freaky weather to a "God" don't ask the I believe it was done by violating most of the basic rules of physics.

My concept of the force you call "God" is the underlaying structure of space-time the defines those rules.

Rob---

No I'm not kidding, it says what it says, but if God is the soveriegn creator of the universe as he claims to be in the Bible manipulating the solar system wouldn't be a very complicated thing for Him to do. As far as the red sea thing it's just an example of men trying to explain away what the Bible claims as a miraculous act of God. An example of this is the argument that Christ didn't really die on the cross, and that he revived in the cool of his tomb, roled a 1 ton boulder away with extensice injuries from being crucified and being stabbed in the side with a spear and walking away.

-My concept of the God you call "force" is built on a foundation of scripture. What is the foundation of the force you beleive in? If God is the author of the laws of nature He could most certainly bend or even break them to suit His purpose-"13Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength..." Ps. 73:13

rleeson
04-22-2003, 05:06 PM
I'm not going waste time on this... all your claims reduce to the Bible is true because it says it is true... you must be an easy mark for every con-man that comes along if you accept that as proof.

I believe the universe has an order and structure (in some cases that is "chaos theory" but that is an order) Things most obey the rules without exception these rules are bound into the fabric of the universe. If a God exists it exists in that fabric of cause and effect. Miracles occur because the odds of an unlike event occurring happened to come up.

Your place in the universe is to try to improve the human condition as much as we can... and understand the universe.
To completely understand the universe is the know know the Mind of God some thing I seriously doubt any man will ever do.

Rob---

Edit--

I've rolled a two ton car by pushing it what miraculous about that??

supersize77
04-22-2003, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by rleeson
[I'm not going waste time on this... all your claims reduce to the Bible is true because it says it is true...]
-Correct.

[you must be an easy mark for every con-man that comes along if you accept that as proof].
-Personal attack, has nothing to do with the truth of scripture.

[I believe the universe has an order and structure (in some cases that is "chaos theory" but that is an order)
Things most obey the rules without exception these rules are bound into the fabric of the universe.]
-Why?

[If a God exists it exists in that fabric of cause and effect. Miracles occur because the odds of an unlike event occurring happened to come up.]
-Now that takes faith.

[Your place in the universe is to try to improve the human condition as much as we can... and understand the universe.]
-Says who?

[To completely understand the universe is the know know the Mind of God some thing I seriously doubt any man will ever do.]
-Agreed, however I differ in my belief that God has revealed himself to man to some extent through the Bible.

Rob---

Edit--

[I've rolled a two ton car by pushing it what miraculous about that?? [/B]
-Were you scourged, had your beard ripped out, had a crown of thornes impaled on your head, crucified, stabbed in the side wrapped in burial shrouds and placed in a tomb beforehand. Oh, you can't put a boulder in neutral either.

rleeson
04-22-2003, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by supersize77
-Were you scourged, had your beard ripped out, had a crown of thornes impaled on your head, crucified, stabbed in the side wrapped in burial shrouds and placed in a tomb beforehand. Oh, you can't put a boulder in neutral either.
Tomb were routinely sealed circular stone that could be roll back and forth in a track... check out tombs of the period. Boulder was in neutral and nothing says Jesus moved the stone it could have been a cohort of angels or a couple of guys that wanted to fake a resuraction there were no witnesses to the moving of the stone your making up stuff that isn't in the bible.

That was not a personal attack. It was projection based your opinion that something is true simply by it saying it is true... Ergo when a con-man comes around telling you something he tells you is true you will assume that he's that he is telling you the truth because he said it was... that's the logical out come of your premise.

Why? Because it can be demostrated that is the way the universe works, things can be predicted and are repeatable.

You claim that some all-powerful and all-knowing being that's really three beings in one and that the "Son" part was concieved by intercouse between a human virgin and the part of this being call the "Holy Spirt" but the "Son" really the son of the "Father" part and all three have always existed. and the run around causing event that if they were to occur would rip the Earth and or solar system to shreds be the keep that from happening... That's easier to believe than their is a universe that obeys laws that we can know and use to predict how the universe will behave. I must be missing something my view in much clearer and less convoluted. my view require very little faith because it can be demostrated at any time.

Who Says? Well it seems like a pretty valid and noble idea. If you recall I did say there were good ideas in the bible... wasn't Gods instructions to Adam and Eve to be fruitful, multiple and subdue the earth... As I understand it at this point in time that means to improve the human condition We've done very well that the multiple part we need to work giving every one a fair break. To subdue the earth means to understand the rules of the universe in which we find yourselves.

I'm gone---

Rob--

supersize77
04-22-2003, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by rleeson
[Tomb were routinely sealed circular stone that could be roll back and forth in a track... check out tombs of the period. Boulder was in neutral and nothing says Jesus moved the stone it could have been a cohort of angels or a couple of guys that wanted to fake a resuraction there were no witnesses to the moving of the stone your making up stuff that isn't in the bible].
-Actualy it was an Angle of the Lord that rolled the stone away, my retort to your "I rolled a 2 ton car" statement was to show the ridculousness of that statment-If the stone were simply rolled to one side, the guards at Jesus' tomb could be accused of sleeping at their post. However, this was not the case. The stone was moved so far from the tomb that Luke made a point of using a distinct Greek preposition to describe its location. The word he used, “Apokulio,” means to move something away—not just to one side. John used the even stronger verb “airo,” which means to “pick something up and toss it away,” as you might toss a bowling ball along the bowling alley. If the earthquake Sunday morning was responsible, then the guards would not have been punished for a broken seal, but would have been punished for deserting their post. Yet they went into hiding after the event, indicating that something beyond human understanding had taken place.
The Soldiers were not prosecuted.There had to be some undeniable evidence arguing that no human could position the great stone in the place where it was found. Therefore, the Jewish priests could not justifiably bring a charge against the guards.
Can you put your car in neutral and “airo” it across the parking lot?

[That was not a personal attack. It was projection based your opinion that something is true simply by it saying it is true... Ergo when a con-man comes around telling you something he tells you is true you will assume that he's that he is telling you the truth because he said it was... that's the logical out come of your premise.]
-If this was not a personal attack it most certainly was a hasty genralization. Just because I take the Bible as truth does not mean I will necessarily believe everyone including the con man. For example, I deffinately do not beleive in many of the things you are saying in this thread such as you concept of God, etc., because I know that they are contrary to God's Word.

[Why? Because it can be demostrated that is the way the universe works, things can be predicted and are repeatable.]
-The Bible has also been proven true time and time again throughout history. And inspite of numerous attempts to destory its authority remains as strong as ever.

[You claim that some all-powerful and all-knowing being that's really three beings in one and that the "Son" part was concieved by intercouse between a human virgin and the part of this being call the "Holy Spirt"]
-They did not have intercourse, Mary was still a Virgin at the time of Jesus's birth. You are either putting words in my mouth or construing scripture.


-Whom are the laws obeying? The force?

[I must be missing something my view in much clearer and less convoluted. my view require very little faith because it can be demostrated at any time.]
-Actually it takes quite a bit of faith to believe that the laws of the universe came into existence and continue to function without intelligent design and oversight.

[Who Says? Well it seems like a pretty valid and noble idea. If you recall I did say there were good ideas in the bible... wasn't Gods instructions to Adam and Eve to be fruitful, multiple and subdue the earth... As I understand it at this point in time that means to improve the human condition We've done very well that the multiple part we need to work giving every one a fair break. To subdue the earth means to understand the rules of the universe in which we find yourselves.]
-So you take what you like from the Bible and and discard the rest.

[I'm gone---]
Peace.

Rob--

PumPumLover101
03-03-2015, 08:55 PM
I'm a Christian opie