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View Full Version : Digging for the Truth (Ethiopian Orthodox and The Ark of the Covenant)



~Serpent~
01-23-2007, 03:36 AM
Has anybody else here caught the History Channel program, Digging for the Truth? It is probably one of the few programs worth watching on the boob tube (or propaganda box).

Modern day Indiana Jones

Logging over 100,000 miles by plane, train, automobile, boat, bike, bus, camel, and horse in the first season alone, Josh brings viewers to some of the most remote archaeological sites on the planet. Whether he's searching for the Ark of the Covenant in Ethiopia, seeking the Holy Grail in Southern France, or exploring the meaning of the Moai on Easter Island, Josh fully immerses himself in the pursuit of knowledge and discovery.


This particular thread is about the fascinating theory and legend of the Ethiopians' claim, that the Holy Ark of the Covenant, which mysteriously disappears from the Bible, lies in Ethiopia. I first read about this many years ago, and found it to be an incredible alternative tale, based on real archaeology and religion which thrives to this day.

Wiki:

Ethiopian Orthodox Church

The Ethiopian Orthodox Church in Axum, Ethiopia is the only one in the world which still claims to possess the Ark of the Covenant. According to the Kebra Nagast, after Menelik I had come to Jerusalem to visit his father, King Solomon, his father had given him a copy of the Ark, and had commanded the first-born sons of the elders of his kingdom to travel back to Ethiopia to settle there. However, these Israelites did not want to live away from the presence of the Ark, so they switched the copy with the original and smuggled the Ark out of the country; Menelik only learned that the original was with his group during the journey home. Not only did Solomon lose the object to his son by the Queen of Sheba but the divine favor that went with it.

Although it was once paraded before the town once each year, the object is now kept under constant guard in a "treasury" near the Church of Our Lady Mary of Zion, and only the head priest of the church is allowed to view it. Most Western historians are skeptical of this claim.




Check it out before Youtube removes it!...(they will)

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOqLpT6HKzY

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgbX0TjY0jA

3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tsViR8oSMw

4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEayq3iAaS4

Ruhanv
01-23-2007, 05:21 AM
I really wish guys like this would not go around calling themselves "archaeologists". He is a trophy hunter on par with anyone hunting the Lochness monster, Bigfoot or UFOs.

Archaeologists today are moving away from the idea that Moses existed and that there was ever an ark at all. It's all stuff of lefend. Having said that, objects such as the ark were fairly common in ancient Egypt and it would not be suprising if an ark made it's way down to Ethiopia.

People forget that arks were part of Egyptian religious culture.

TheNewAddiction
01-23-2007, 06:41 AM
That theory was started by Graham Hancock in his book 'The Sign and the Seal'. Neat theory, but I remain unconvinced. In all likelihood, the Ark was melted down; sad but probably true.

TNA

Fidelis
01-23-2007, 07:23 AM
I really wish guys like this would not go around calling themselves "archaeologists". He is a trophy hunter on par with anyone hunting the Lochness monster, Bigfoot or UFOs.

Archaeologists today are moving away from the idea that Moses existed and that there was ever an ark at all. It's all stuff of lefend. Having said that, objects such as the ark were fairly common in ancient Egypt and it would not be suprising if an ark made it's way down to Ethiopia.

People forget that arks were part of Egyptian religious culture.
I agree, although he did state on The Daily Show that he wasn't an archaeologist at all. However, I agree: these pop culture "archaeologists" are really misleading people about what archaeology is and how it's done. It's not treasure hunting, and it's not done in any way like it's shown on his show. The name of his show obviously implies archaeology.

I've actually been on an archaeological expedition and it's nothing like his show. Not even close. We got up before sunrise, went to the site, worked until noon, then went back to our base and worked in the lab for another 4 hours, had dinner, and went to bed around 8 or 9. Repeat.

~Serpent~
01-23-2007, 10:23 AM
I really wish guys like this would not go around calling themselves "archaeologists". He is a trophy hunter on par with anyone hunting the Lochness monster, Bigfoot or UFOs.

Archaeologists today are moving away from the idea that Moses existed and that there was ever an ark at all. It's all stuff of lefend. Having said that, objects such as the ark were fairly common in ancient Egypt and it would not be suprising if an ark made it's way down to Ethiopia.

People forget that arks were part of Egyptian religious culture.

You're quite correct. Arks and ark making were a part of Egyptian culture way before Moses. And not to mention, Moses was supposed to have been raised within Egyptian royalty, it is really not suprising we see elements of it. I think what is interesting, is how Ethiopians have their own story of the Ark, which exists outside the boundaries of Judaism. The fact that these rituals performed by the Ethiopians, are of the old Judaism makes it that more credible.

~Serpent~
01-23-2007, 10:24 AM
That theory was started by Graham Hancock in his book 'The Sign and the Seal'. Neat theory, but I remain unconvinced. In all likelihood, the Ark was melted down; sad but probably true.

TNA

An excellent author and book nonetheless. And no, the "theory" was not started by him, since it was a part of Ethiopian culture for centuries. He merely brought it to the attention of many in the West.

~Serpent~
01-23-2007, 10:32 AM
I agree, although he did state on The Daily Show that he wasn't an archaeologist at all. However, I agree: these pop culture "archaeologists" are really misleading people about what archaeology is and how it's done. It's not treasure hunting, and it's not done in any way like it's shown on his show. The name of his show obviously implies archaeology.

One need not be an archaeologist to be able to gather knowledge and information from archaelogy. It is often the job of a good journalist or writer to present what is already known and accepted thru science in a readible and coherent manner for the masses.

In fact one could argue that archaeology in all of its forms, is a type of treasure hunting. What treasure is more valuable than truth, whether empirical or spiritual?



I've actually been on an archaeological expedition and it's nothing like his show. Not even close. We got up before sunrise, went to the site, worked until noon, then went back to our base and worked in the lab for another 4 hours, had dinner, and went to bed around 8 or 9. Repeat.


I dont think the show is supposed to be soley about archaelogy and digging. Hell that would be one boring ass show. It incorporates elements of scientific research with history and the stories behind the various sites he visits. Great monuments such as the Great Pyramids are not only archaeological, but religious and cultural. All of these elements are blended in and presented in a documentary type filming.

~Serpent~
01-23-2007, 10:29 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iH3FmfzYSc

US_Ranger
01-23-2007, 11:31 PM
Apparently some of you don't realize that there is a branch of archaeology called "Biblical archaeology" that deals with digging for truths from the Bible to help terminate myths and bring evidence to truths.

****, there's even a branch of archaeology that does nothing but dig in trash in order to find out about civilizations. You can learn a lot about people from what they throw away.

But it's also true that this guy isn't an archaeologist. He's a grave robber, trophy hunter or whatever else you want to call him.

Ruhanv
01-24-2007, 04:06 AM
I agree, although he did state on The Daily Show that he wasn't an archaeologist at all. However, I agree: these pop culture "archaeologists" are really misleading people about what archaeology is and how it's done. It's not treasure hunting, and it's not done in any way like it's shown on his show. The name of his show obviously implies archaeology.

I've actually been on an archaeological expedition and it's nothing like his show. Not even close. We got up before sunrise, went to the site, worked until noon, then went back to our base and worked in the lab for another 4 hours, had dinner, and went to bed around 8 or 9. Repeat.

So no Nazis, snakes, or lost arks? ;)

Ruhanv
01-24-2007, 04:10 AM
You're quite correct. Arks and ark making were a part of Egyptian culture way before Moses. And not to mention, Moses was supposed to have been raised within Egyptian royalty, it is really not suprising we see elements of it. I think what is interesting, is how Ethiopians have their own story of the Ark, which exists outside the boundaries of Judaism. The fact that these rituals performed by the Ethiopians, are of the old Judaism makes it that more credible.

I don't really buy that their traditions exist outside of Judaism. Their conversion to Orthodox Christianity would have exposed them to old Judaism, so there is nothing new there. It would not have been too dificult to find Egyptian artefacts in Ethiopia and like most religious relics, this ark became adopted as the ark.

The core problem still exists, which is that there is overwhelming evidence to suggest that the whole Moses/Exodus story was purely folklore and never happened in the first place.

IraHays
01-24-2007, 07:49 AM
Wow, religious folk sure can't win. First they get belittled for ignoring science.

Then when they go to try to prove something they get belittled again.

Fidelis
01-24-2007, 08:02 AM
In fact one could argue that archaeology in all of its forms, is a type of treasure hunting. What treasure is more valuable than truth, whether empirical or spiritual?
No, it cannot be. You can call a scientific pursuit a "treasure hunt" if you want, but it's terribly misleading, so please don't.


I dont think the show is supposed to be soley about archaelogy and digging. Hell that would be one boring ass show. It incorporates elements of scientific research with history and the stories behind the various sites he visits. Great monuments such as the Great Pyramids are not only archaeological, but religious and cultural. All of these elements are blended in and presented in a documentary type filming.
I'm just upset because it gives the viewer a distorted idea of what archaeology is like. As a student of archaeology, I'm sensitive to this type of thing, but I know that the average television producer and viewer doesn't care what I think.


Wow, religious folk sure can't win. First they get belittled for ignoring science.

Then when they go to try to prove something they get belittled again.
What are you talking about?

Ruhanv
01-24-2007, 09:18 AM
Wow, religious folk sure can't win. First they get belittled for ignoring science.

Then when they go to try to prove something they get belittled again.

In both cases they ignore good science and try to prove their case using either outdated or cherry picked data.

Diesel66
01-24-2007, 10:35 AM
But it's also true that this guy isn't an archaeologist. He's a grave robber, trophy hunter or whatever else you want to call him.
All of them are though.


I laugh a little whenever I see an archaeologist mention the evil grave robbers have disturbed this man's rest. Dude, wtf did you think you were going to do to his rest.

~Serpent~
01-24-2007, 02:25 PM
I don't really buy that their traditions exist outside of Judaism. Their conversion to Orthodox Christianity would have exposed them to old Judaism, so there is nothing new there. It would not have been too dificult to find Egyptian artefacts in Ethiopia and like most religious relics, this ark became adopted as the ark.

The core problem still exists, which is that there is overwhelming evidence to suggest that the whole Moses/Exodus story was purely folklore and never happened in the first place.



Even tho they did have contact with Christianity, their customs and rituals are closer to tradtional Judaism. Cerain things which were long abandoned by Christianity, they still follow.

If their Ark tradition was purely Egyptian, we would see more of that, however what we see is Jewish, so this theory doesnt really hold water. No doubt they must have had contact with Egypt, but so did the Jews. Egypt influenced many cultures, however it is more apparant that this Ark tradition stemmed from Mosaic.

Their legends of Queen Sheba and Solomon, at least give credibility to Solomon's Temple which housed the Jew's most precious relic, the Ark. It is just as foolish to assume all of this as fairytale, since there is much physical evidence to show it came from a legitimate source.

~Serpent~
01-24-2007, 02:30 PM
No, it cannot be. You can call a scientific pursuit a "treasure hunt" if you want, but it's terribly misleading, so please don't.


Many a scholar and scientist, are wide eyed adventurists, seeking out truths and fame to discover what has yet to be discovered. Just watch Giza's director of antiquities Zahi Hawass! He believes he's Indiana Jones:D



I'm just upset because it gives the viewer a distorted idea of what archaeology is like. As a student of archaeology, I'm sensitive to this type of thing, but I know that the average television producer and viewer doesn't care what I think.

I see you'd prefer to have a show focussed on one site with 10 people digging little by little. Im sure there are programs like that too. However, this is a documentary program, which is part history, and part archaeology.



What are you talking about?


He is probably frustrated like other Bible followers, that there is indeed archaeology that supports what was written in the Bible.

ps. That's kool you're studying archaeology :)

~Serpent~
01-24-2007, 02:35 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDz5euRWCC8


Psalm 68:2. As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

EOY
01-24-2007, 04:19 PM
Good find. That temple at the top of the mountain was sick. Also, the part about the preist who lives his entire life guarding the supposed ark, never leaving the church. That's pretty hardcore.

~Serpent~
01-24-2007, 11:43 PM
Good find. That temple at the top of the mountain was sick. Also, the part about the preist who lives his entire life guarding the supposed ark, never leaving the church. That's pretty hardcore.


Glad you watched. You're right, it is hardcore...almost hard to believe. The priest must dedicate his whole life to protect and be beside this relic. Then when he is about to die, he will pass this responsibility to another priest who must do the same.

Some have speculated that such a powerful thing as the Ark couldn't just be sitting in a small church with one feeble looking man, and manage to be protected for so long....at least that's what I have thought. One would imagine that the powers that be would have already got their evil hands on it by now. But....you really never know. Perhaps there are supernatural powers that protect this thing...as the Bible...and even the Ethiopian priests have claimed.

I wonder what the Muslims have thought of this story throughout their own history. As far as I remember, there is no mention of it in the Koran. Would that mean it is considered an innovation, and a false lie? I would imagine that something like the Ark might be considered Idolatrous to Muslims. But then again, if they contained the stones in which God Himself personally wrote upon, it would probably be venerated greatly by any religion including Islam.

EOY
01-24-2007, 11:51 PM
I wonder what the Muslims have thought of this story throughout their own history. As far as I remember, there is no mention of it in the Koran. Would that mean it is considered an innovation, and a false lie? I would imagine that something like the Ark might be considered Idolatrous to Muslims. But then again, if they contained the stones in which God Himself personally wrote upon, it would probably be venerated greatly by any religion including Islam.

"Their prophet said to them, "The sign of his kingship is that the chest [Ark of the Covenant] will be restored to you, bringing assurances from your Lord, and relics left by the people of Moses and the people of Aaron. It will be carried by the angels. This should be a convincing sign for you, if you are really believers." (Qur'an 2:248)

~Serpent~
01-24-2007, 11:53 PM
VERY interesting. So the Koran does speak of the Ark. I never knew. So this passage is saying that this relic will be restored to the Islamic religion?

timbo81
01-24-2007, 11:57 PM
I think it's under the dome of the rock in jerusalem, I watched something ages ago, they were digging under there and saw it in a passage under there. They can't excavate it though cause it's a muslim site.

When the dome is destroyed though they'll be free to rebuild the temple there.

EOY
01-25-2007, 12:04 AM
VERY interesting. So the Koran does speak of the Ark. I never knew. So this passage is saying that this relic will be restored to the Islamic religion?

No. It's just talking about how one of the prophets of Israel (Samuel, peace be upon him) was reminding the children of Israel of the signs of Saul's kingship (they weren't satisfied with him as their king). Here's the context of this verse:

Keep in mind that Talut = Saul, Musa = Moses (pbuh), Harun = Aaron (pbuh), Jalut = Goliath, Dawud = David (pbuh)

[247] Their Prophet said to them: "Allah hath appointed Talut as king over you." They said: "How can he exercise authority over us when we are better fitted than he to exercise authority, and he is not even gifted, with wealth in abundance?" He said: "Allah hath chosen him above you, and hath gifted him abundantly with knowledge and bodily prowess: Allah granteth His authority to whom He pleaseth. Allah is All-Embracing, and He knoweth all things."

[248] And (further) their Prophet said to them: "A Sign of his authority is that there shall come to you the Ark of the Covenant, with (an assurance) therein of security from your Lord, and the relics left by the family of Musa and the family of Harun, carried by angels. In this is a Symbol for you if ye indeed have faith."

[249] When Talut set forth with the armies, he said: "Allah will test you at the stream; if any drinks of its water, he goes not with my army; only those who taste not of it go with me; a mere sip out of the hand is excused." But they all drank of it, except a few. With they crossed the river, he and the faithful ones with him, they said: "This day we cannot cope with Jalut and his forces." But those who were convinced that they must meet Allah, said: "How oft, by Allah's will, hath a small force vanquished a big one? Allah is with those who steadfastly persevere."

[250] When they advanced to meet Jalut and his forces, they prayed: "Our Lord! Pour out constancy on us and make our steps firm: help us against those that reject faith."

[251] By Allah's will they routed them: and Dawud slew Jalut: and Allah gave him Power and Wisdom and taught him whatever (else) He willed. And did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed be full of mischief: but Allah is full of bounty to all the worlds.

[252] These are the Signs of Allah: We rehearse them to thee in truth: verily thou art one of the Messengers

~Serpent~
01-25-2007, 12:17 AM
I see. Fascinating. I guess that would give even more credibility to its existence in the past.

EOY
01-25-2007, 12:28 AM
I see. Fascinating. I guess that would give even more credibility to its existence in the past.

It could still be around somewhere. I'm leaning towards the Ethiopian story myself. Maybe there are other clues in the Qur'an, I don't really know.

BTW, I just added a few more name translations to the above post. Forgot that they're different in Arabic.

~Serpent~
01-25-2007, 12:34 AM
Thanx EOY :)

I must rep you, but it seems I have to still recharge before I can rep you again. I hope the last rep I gave wasnt a neg :P !!

It's a pretty big revelation to me, since I thought it was never mentioned in the Koran. Thank you.

EOY
01-25-2007, 12:50 AM
Thanx EOY :)

I must rep you, but it seems I have to still recharge before I can rep you again. I hope the last rep I gave wasnt a neg :P !!

It's a pretty big revelation to me, since I thought it was never mentioned in the Koran. Thank you.

You're welcome :).

Ruhanv
01-25-2007, 02:39 AM
Even tho they did have contact with Christianity, their customs and rituals are closer to tradtional Judaism. Cerain things which were long abandoned by Christianity, they still follow.

If their Ark tradition was purely Egyptian, we would see more of that, however what we see is Jewish, so this theory doesnt really hold water. No doubt they must have had contact with Egypt, but so did the Jews. Egypt influenced many cultures, however it is more apparant that this Ark tradition stemmed from Mosaic.


This is really no big mystery. They simply adopted some of the earlier Jewish practices found in the OT. The OT clearly defines all these traditions. Various Christian sects in West have done the exact same thing.



Their legends of Queen Sheba and Solomon, at least give credibility to Solomon's Temple which housed the Jew's most precious relic, the Ark. It is just as foolish to assume all of this as fairytale, since there is much physical evidence to show it came from a legitimate source.

There is actually no physical evidence that Solomon's temple ever existed. In addition, there is no evidence that there was ever a connection between the Queen of Sheba and any Israelite king. Lastly, Solomon's wealth and wisdom was supposed to have been unsurpassed and all the nations respected his kingdom. The problem is that there is not a single shred of evidence not just of his wealth and power but even his existence in either Israel or the surrounding nations. All these nations kept records of all the surrounding kingdoms, they power, status etc. and they all pretty much correspond with each other. We don't have a single mention of Solomon anywhere.

Jerusalem during the time of David was no great city but according to archaeological digs, it has been suggested that it was more of a small trading village with David as a tribal leader, not a king.

Ruhanv
01-25-2007, 02:45 AM
VERY interesting. So the Koran does speak of the Ark. I never knew. So this passage is saying that this relic will be restored to the Islamic religion?

The Qur'an contains a retelling of various OT stories. In essence the authors of the Qur'an retold these stories to make the Arab people appear to be the chosen ones instead of the Jews. One dumb story out of the Qur'an includes Solomon speaking to a bunch of ants. :rolleyes:
This is one of the weaknesses of the Qur'an as they took stories which were already dubious and based on Assyrian folklore and used it for their purposes.

As these OT stories are now being proven to be nothing but patriotic inventions of the Israelites around 700 BCE, the Qur'an is looking a little silly as well.

EOY
01-25-2007, 03:54 PM
The Qur'an contains a retelling of various OT stories.

Yes, that's what it's supposed to do. Every book comes to confirm that which was sent before it.


In essence the authors of the Qur'an retold these stories to make the Arab people appear to be the chosen ones instead of the Jews.

Where did you get this silly idea? Nowhere in the Qur'an does it even attempt to imply this. If anything, it criticizes the Arabs for their way of life.

And in what way does the retelling of stories show Arabs to be the chosen people? I'd love to see this.



One dumb story out of the Qur'an includes Solomon speaking to a bunch of ants. :rolleyes:

Yeah, that's called a miracle. Prophets (pbut) tend to have those.


This is one of the weaknesses of the Qur'an as they took stories which were already dubious and based on Assyrian folklore and used it for their purposes.

What purposes might those be?

~Serpent~
01-26-2007, 03:40 AM
This is really no big mystery. They simply adopted some of the earlier Jewish practices found in the OT. The OT clearly defines all these traditions. Various Christian sects in West have done the exact same thing.



There is actually no physical evidence that Solomon's temple ever existed. In addition, there is no evidence that there was ever a connection between the Queen of Sheba and any Israelite king. Lastly, Solomon's wealth and wisdom was supposed to have been unsurpassed and all the nations respected his kingdom. The problem is that there is not a single shred of evidence not just of his wealth and power but even his existence in either Israel or the surrounding nations. All these nations kept records of all the surrounding kingdoms, they power, status etc. and they all pretty much correspond with each other. We don't have a single mention of Solomon anywhere.

Jerusalem during the time of David was no great city but according to archaeological digs, it has been suggested that it was more of a small trading village with David as a tribal leader, not a king.


What is unique about the Ethiopian culture is that their whole Judaic religion revolves around this mysterious relic. As they describe, there is a copy of it in every Etiopian church. Even the Jews have abandoned this practice. So whether you believe it was a complete fabrication, you need to provide counter evidence to prove it is all embelishment and fabrication.

It also means that their own legends of Queen Sheba and her son Menelik are also fabricated stories.

The problem is, you are proposing that every Abrahmic religion, whether or not it is with the original Judaic faith, or branches of it, are a part of some massive Jewish conspiracy. Since you are claiming that all the tales of the OT, were fabrications to establish Jewish patriotism, and claims to land that they never inhabited. Are you able to prove such a conspiracy?

It is no different than claiming all the mythologies of the world were purely fabrications, yet there they exist, often with archaeological and religious corroborations.

EOY
01-26-2007, 04:07 AM
23. "I found (there) a woman ruling over them and provided with every requisite; and she has a magnificent throne.

24. "I found her and her people worshipping the sun besides Allah. Satan has made their deeds seem pleasing in their eyes, and has kept them away from the Path,- so they receive no guidance,-

25. "(Kept them away from the Path), that they should not worship Allah, Who brings to light what is hidden in the heavens and the earth, and knows what ye hide and what ye reveal.

26. "(Allah)!- there is no god but He!- Lord of the Throne Supreme!"

27. (Solomon) said: "Soon shall we see whether thou hast told the truth or lied!

28. "Go thou, with this letter of mine, and deliver it to them: then draw back from them, and (wait to) see what answer they return"...

29. (The queen) said: "Ye chiefs! here is delivered to me - a letter worthy of respect.

30. "It is from Solomon, and is (as follows): 'In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful:

31. "'Be ye not arrogant against me, but come to me in submission (to the true Religion).'"

32. She said: "Ye chiefs! advise me in (this) my affair: no affair have I decided except in your presence."

33. They said: "We are endued with strength, and given to vehement war: but the command is with thee; so consider what thou wilt command."

34. She said: "Kings, when they enter a country, despoil it, and make the noblest of its people its meanest thus do they behave.

35. "But I am going to send him a present, and (wait) to see with what (answer) return (my) ambassadors."

36. Now when (the embassy) came to Solomon, he said: "Will ye give me abundance in wealth? But that which Allah has given me is better than that which He has given you! Nay it is ye who rejoice in your gift!

37. "Go back to them, and be sure we shall come to them with such hosts as they will never be able to meet: We shall expel them from there in disgrace, and they will feel humbled (indeed)."

38. He said (to his own men): "Ye chiefs! which of you can bring me her throne before they come to me in submission?"

39. Said an 'Ifrit, of the Jinns: "I will bring it to thee before thou rise from thy council: indeed I have full strength for the purpose, and may be trusted."

40. Said one who had knowledge of the Book: "I will bring it to thee within the twinkling of an eye!" Then when (Solomon) saw it placed firmly before him, he said: "This is by the Grace of my Lord!- to test me whether I am grateful or ungrateful! and if any is grateful, truly his gratitude is (a gain) for his own soul; but if any is ungrateful, truly my Lord is Free of all Needs, Supreme in Honour !"

41. He said: "Transform her throne out of all recognition by her: let us see whether she is guided (to the truth) or is one of those who receive no guidance."

42. So when she arrived, she was asked, "Is this thy throne?" She said, "It was just like this; and knowledge was bestowed on us in advance of this, and we have submitted to Allah (in Islam)."

43. And he diverted her from the worship of others besides Allah. for she was (sprung) of a people that had no faith.

44. She was asked to enter the lofty Palace: but when she saw it, she thought it was a lake of water, and she (tucked up her skirts), uncovering her legs. He said: "This is but a palace paved smooth with slabs of glass." She said: "O my Lord! I have indeed wronged my soul: I do (now) submit (in Islam), with Solomon, to the Lord of the Worlds."

Scholars of Tafsir (Qur'anic exegesis) suggest that Sulaiman (Solomon, pbuh) married Queen Balqis (Queen of Sheba) soon after. They base this on accounts of history and further research. So from an Islamic perspective, it's not far fetched at all that Balqis bore his son.

~Serpent~
01-26-2007, 04:12 AM
Very interesting quotes there EOY. Altho it doesnt specifically mention her name (or does it?) , Queen Sheba could fit this "woman ruler's" description. Subtle descriptions like these can strengthen the legitimacy behind obscure legends.

Ruhanv
01-26-2007, 05:59 AM
Yes, that's what it's supposed to do. Every book comes to confirm that which was sent before it.


Err.. no. The authors of the Qur'an in an attempt to show their superiority to Jewish scripture, fabricated a story about characters and events which have dubious roots. It's like copying the wrong answers from someone sitting next to you.

You just end up looking stupid and that's exactly what's happened with the Qur'an.



Where did you get this silly idea? Nowhere in the Qur'an does it even attempt to imply this. If anything, it criticizes the Arabs for their way of life.

And in what way does the retelling of stories show Arabs to be the chosen people? I'd love to see this.


Try reinventing which son of Abraham's was the chosen one. ;)

Ruhanv
01-26-2007, 06:09 AM
What is unique about the Ethiopian culture is that their whole Judaic religion revolves around this mysterious relic. As they describe, there is a copy of it in every Etiopian church. Even the Jews have abandoned this practice. So whether you believe it was a complete fabrication, you need to provide counter evidence to prove it is all embelishment and fabrication.


These types of relics would have popped up in all the countries surrounding Egypt after Alexander invaded in them in the 4th century BCE.

Moulding their orthodox christianity after Judaism and claiming these relics as authentic, is nothing special. The Catholics have done this with dozens of relics over the years.

It's important to realise that there is nothing in their version of Christianity which automatically implies that they received any authentic relic and any given stage.



It also means that their own legends of Queen Sheba and her son Menelik are also fabricated stories.


Not at all. If I create a fictional story about Superman catching Hitler during WW2 (a comic book like this exists), does it mean that both characters are fictional? Of course not. As long as there are external sources backing up the other character.

In this case the Queen of Sheba has extra-Biblical sources, however non exist for Solomon. We also know for a fact that Israel was not a wealthy country during the time that he was supposed to have reigned. Israel was an Egyptian colony, heavily taxed by the Egyptians.



The problem is, you are proposing that every Abrahmic religion, whether or not it is with the original Judaic faith, or branches of it, are a part of some massive Jewish conspiracy. Since you are claiming that all the tales of the OT, were fabrications to establish Jewish patriotism, and claims to land that they never inhabited. Are you able to prove such a conspiracy?

It is no different than claiming all the mythologies of the world were purely fabrications, yet there they exist, often with archaeological and religious corroborations.

It's not a conspiracy as much as it is a result of a natural development of various religions. The original Jewish story about Moses, Egypt and the Exodus is purely fictional. I outlined the more probably scenario based on archeaological findings here: http://www.atheisttoolbox.com/fcar4.php