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Vargas
08-13-2009, 08:11 AM
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/090813/world/mideast_conflict_gaza_rights

Israeli soldiers unlawfully shot and killed 11 Palestinian civilians, including four children, who were in groups waving white flags during the Gaza war, Human Rights Watch said on Thursday.

....

and the beat goes on...

balls2wall
08-13-2009, 08:48 AM
O REALLY..


(IsraelNN.com) The IDF has slammed a Human Right Watch (HRW) report issued last Thursday that criticized Israel for what it termed "white flag" deaths during last January's Operation Cast Lead in Gaza.

The report claimed that IDF soldiers killed 11 Palestinian Authority Arab civilians while they were holding 'white flags' in the Gaza Strip, including five women and four children.


According to testimony cited by the New York-based lobby group, each of the victims was either standing, walking or driving slowly in a vehicle at the time of their deaths. In each case, claimed the investigators, the IDF was in control of the area, and there was no local combat in progress.

The IDF said flatly that the report is based on unreliable sources, adding that it was a common tactic of Hamas terrorists to shoot and then raise white flags to protect themselves from retaliation.

The IDF Spokesman's Office posted a video on the YouTube website on Thursday showing Hamas terrorists waving white flags to escape IDF retaliation.

"The report is based on the testimonies of a few Palestinian civilians whose credibility has not been proven," the IDF Spokesman pointed out.

Video:

YJgfZ9_6miE

NuggzTheNinja
08-13-2009, 08:58 AM
Earlier this month, HRW published another report on the Gaza war in which it said rocket attacks carried out against Israel by Hamas and other Palestinian militant groups amounted to war crimes.

It's just the Jews that do wrong, though.

48Volts
08-13-2009, 09:32 AM
Great video there, definitely more reliable than civilian palestinians. It proves absolutely nothing, except for the fact that IDF has mediocre editing skills, and they take the world as fools. How do you honestly feel about yourself defending the massacre of over 1000 civilians? Only an evil human being can think that is actually justified.

NuggzTheNinja
08-13-2009, 09:33 AM
Great video there, definitely more reliable than civilian palestinians. It proves absolutely nothing, except for the fact that IDF has mediocre editing skills, and they take the world as fools. How do you honestly feel about yourself defending the massacre of over 1000 civilians? Only an evil human being can think that is actually justified.

Were you there? :rolleyes:

dogdogs
08-13-2009, 09:36 AM
Were you there? :rolleyes:

were you there is the only answer you can give. Open your eyes man i feel kinda sorry for you. your spitting out the same crap here for years... lol despite being here in this section for so long your still living in your illusion world. im not even lying i feel sorry for you and im glad i can see the truth.

48Volts
08-13-2009, 09:40 AM
Were you there? :rolleyes:

You're right, I wasn't there, so it didn't happen...right?

What do you gain by supporting Israeli massacres of civilians since 1947? Just wondering. Do you think you're supporting freedom, justice, democracy??

I never understand why Americans are so in favor of Israel's racist regime.

Steak_n_Taters
08-13-2009, 09:41 AM
Um... Israel/Gaza is SO 6 months ago.

Healthcare is what is supposed to be discussed now.

US_Ranger
08-13-2009, 10:22 AM
Great video there, definitely more reliable than civilian palestinians. It proves absolutely nothing, except for the fact that IDF has mediocre editing skills, and they take the world as fools. How do you honestly feel about yourself defending the massacre of over 1000 civilians? Only an evil human being can think that is actually justified.

So you have Palestinian civilians arguing from one side with no evidence and then you have a video (whether edited or not) from the Israeli side and your response is to ignore that and go into the usual tirade of anti-Israeli rhetoric.

There isn't really any point in these threads because it doesn't matter what counter-evidence is shown to people like you, you're not going to listen to it. And if you want to talk about mediocre editing skills, why not comment on all the Pallywood videos from Hamas. The famous child behind the barrel in the street video comes to mind.

Dr Miscer
08-13-2009, 10:25 AM
you can't really trust israeli media at all. i trust a western media source moreso than israeli

bird72
08-13-2009, 10:26 AM
Great video there, definitely more reliable than civilian palestinians. It proves absolutely nothing, except for the fact that IDF has mediocre editing skills, and they take the world as fools. How do you honestly feel about yourself defending the massacre of over 1000 civilians? Only an evil human being can think that is actually justified.

can you post a source and proof of the 1000 civilians masacre? thank you.

48Volts
08-13-2009, 10:30 AM
So you have Palestinian civilians arguing from one side with no evidence and then you have a video (whether edited or not) from the Israeli side and your response is to ignore that and go into the usual tirade of anti-Israeli rhetoric.

There isn't really any point in these threads because it doesn't matter what counter-evidence is shown to people like you, you're not going to listen to it. And if you want to talk about mediocre editing skills, why not comment on all the Pallywood videos from Hamas. The famous child behind the barrel in the street video comes to mind.

How about the bodies of the 11 Palestinian civilians, including four children, does that count as proof? Even if this video was real, there's no way to prove it is the video of the situation in question.

Basically you're saying, Isreal, which is a known war criminal, says they only killed 11 civilians because they suspect a terrorist was hiding among them, and they are justified to do so? You can actually defend that with a straight face??

balls2wall
08-13-2009, 10:31 AM
Great video there, definitely more reliable than civilian palestinians. It proves absolutely nothing, except for the fact that IDF has mediocre editing skills, and they take the world as fools. How do you honestly feel about yourself defending the massacre of over 1000 civilians? Only an evil human being can think that is actually justified.

But the anonymous testimonials with 0 proof are certainly better proven...

photomasterx
08-13-2009, 10:32 AM
So you have Palestinian civilians arguing from one side with no evidence and then you have a video (whether edited or not) from the Israeli side and your response is to ignore that and go into the usual tirade of anti-Israeli rhetoric.


That video is not from that event. It's supposed to be another event although it is heavily edited and no unedited clips are avialable.

Although it appears on the Hareetz newpaper(online) on the same story, it is infact an unrelated video of another event unlinked to the report posted by the OP.

.

Nagalfar
08-13-2009, 10:33 AM
You're right, I wasn't there, so it didn't happen...right?

What do you gain by supporting Israeli massacres of civilians since 1947? Just wondering. Do you think you're supporting freedom, justice, democracy??

I never understand why Americans are so in favor of Israel's racist regime.

I never understood why Americans would support terrorists.. but you are proof some do.

ghengisconor
08-13-2009, 10:33 AM
the anti-israel peeps in this thread are trying to pull a johnnie cochran


"all this forensic evidence - why are we even having a trial?"

balls2wall
08-13-2009, 10:34 AM
How about the bodies of the 11 Palestinian civilians, including four children, does that count as proof? Even if this video was real, there's no way to prove it is the video of the situation in question.

Basically you're saying, Isreal, which is a known war criminal, says they only killed 11 civilians because they suspect a terrorist was hiding among them, and they are justified to do so? You can actually defend that with a straight face??

pics/videos of the civilians with white flags being killed/dead?

The IDF never agreed or defended against those specific claims, as they are baseless.

48Volts
08-13-2009, 10:35 AM
can you post a source and proof of the 1000 civilians masacre? thank you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War#Casualties

Now GTFO.

US_Ranger
08-13-2009, 10:36 AM
But the anonymous testimonials with 0 proof are certainly better proven...

That's exactly my point.


That video is not from that event. It's supposed to be another event although it is heavily edited and no unedited clips are avialable.

Although it appears on the Hareetz newpaper(online) on the same story, it is infact an unrelated video of another event unlinked to the report posted by the OP.

.

If evidence is shown that this video is NOT of that event then we have something. Until then, I'm not taking the word of anonymous civilians who most likely hate Israel and will say just about anything.

balls2wall
08-13-2009, 10:37 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War#Casualties

Now GTFO.

Civilians: 926 (Palestinian Centre for Human Rights)

295 (IDF)

In cased you missed it, Hamas terroists are palestinian civilians too.


And yes, when you elect a terrorist government you better be expecting casualty's .

ghengisconor
08-13-2009, 10:38 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War#Casualties

Now GTFO.

Yup.

You keep throwing rocks at a bees nest, the bees will eventually respond.

NOW GTFO.

48Volts
08-13-2009, 10:40 AM
pics/videos of the civilians with white flags being killed/dead?

The IDF never agreed or defended against those specific claims, as they are baseless.

Claims are baseless?? lol ok. You post an edited, unrelated video of a different incident, and you tell me that is more proof (not sure what you're trying to prove) than 11 bodies of civilians. Talk about baseless.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. How about we start by spelling out our points first? Are you saying these 11 people were never killed by IDF, or are you saying they were, but it is for a good reason since a "terrorist" was hiding amongst them?

48Volts
08-13-2009, 10:43 AM
Civilians: 926 (Palestinian Centre for Human Rights)

295 (IDF)

In cased you missed it, Hamas terroists are palestinian civilians too.


And yes, when you elect a terrorist government you better be expecting casualty's .

Naturally we should take IDF's word, right?

48Volts
08-13-2009, 10:46 AM
Yup.

You keep throwing rocks at a bees nest, the bees will eventually respond.

NOW GTFO.

umm...so nevermind the fact that 1.5 million gazans have been blockaded in an open air prison, cut off from basic necessities for over 2 years, and the fact that Israel was the one who broke the ceasefire, right?

Of course, this is what the Palestinians get for democratically electing a government. Sounds like fair punishment to me.

How dare these terrorists fight against their occupier?!!

photomasterx
08-13-2009, 10:46 AM
Yup.

You keep throwing rocks at a bees nest, the bees will eventually respond.

NOW GTFO.

Do you even know about this conflict?

The Israeli's and Hamas were in a cease fire.

Hamas stopped firing rockets and mortars towards Israel. And infact there was a recorded drop in incidents accross the border.

The conflict started when Israel fired into the gaza strip which is legally not recogonised as Israeli terratory and when the violated the cease fire then Hamas responded back.

This is documented fact that the conflict was started by Israel when the claimed they bombed a tunnel outside of the Israeli terratory miles inside the Gaza strip carrying out a violation of the cease fire. Hamas then responded back and Israel launched a war.


.

bird72
08-13-2009, 10:46 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War#Casualties

Now GTFO.

The Palestinian Ministry of Health, is your source?, i need to imagine your idioticy...

balls2wall
08-13-2009, 10:46 AM
Naturally we should take IDF's word, right?

Their word verses the idf, except the idf has more evidence.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/E89E699D-A435-491B-B2D0-017675DAFEF7/0/GazaOperation.pdf

bird72
08-13-2009, 10:47 AM
Do you even know about this conflict?

The Israeli's and Hamas were in a cease fire.

Hamas stopped firing rockets and mortars towards Israel. And infact there was a recorded drop in incidents accross the border.

The conflict started when Israel fired into the gaza strip which is legally not recogonised as Israeli terratory and when the violated the cease fire then Hamas responded back.

This is documented fact that the conflict was started by Israel when the claimed they bombed a tunnel outside of the Israeli terratory miles inside the Gaza strip carrying out a violation of the cease fire. Hamas then responded back and Israel launched a war.


.

only one think, you are a liar sir............

48Volts
08-13-2009, 10:50 AM
only one think, you are a liar sir............

Dude, seriously, stop being a troll and GTFO.

NuggzTheNinja
08-13-2009, 10:51 AM
You're right, I wasn't there, so it didn't happen...right?

What do you gain by supporting Israeli massacres of civilians since 1947? Just wondering. Do you think you're supporting freedom, justice, democracy??

I never understand why Americans are so in favor of Israel's racist regime.

:rolleyes:

AA43560
08-13-2009, 10:56 AM
The Palestinian Ministry of Health, is your source?, i need to imagine your idioticy...

http://www.moh.gov.ps/newsite/en/index.php?action=view&page=homepage




They are in charge of Palestinian hospitals so they are the ones who see the casualties coming in and out.

bird72
08-13-2009, 10:59 AM
Dude, seriously, stop being a troll and GTFO.

hey, what are you gone to do, implode me....you are the most ridicule pro-palestinian poster here, so, get to play with your hotwells.....

bird72
08-13-2009, 11:00 AM
http://www.moh.gov.ps/newsite/en/index.php?action=view&page=homepage




They are in charge of Palestinian hospitals so they are the ones who see the casualties coming in and out.

That's not a reliable source as IDF either.

Nagalfar
08-13-2009, 11:00 AM
http://www.moh.gov.ps/newsite/en/index.php?action=view&page=homepage




They are in charge of Palestinian hospitals so they are the ones who see the casualties coming in and out.

Yeap.. thats the same people who as a matter of routine give the world massively inflated numbers.. see those numbers translate to Mo money, and Mo support for the leech on the worlds arse that Gaza is.... lol..

AA43560
08-13-2009, 11:02 AM
That's not a reliable source as IDF either.

So you choose to trust the people who do the killing as opposed to the people who treat the casualties and document everything about them?

48Volts
08-13-2009, 11:04 AM
So you choose to trust the people who do the killing as opposed to the people who treat the casualties and document everything about them?

Don't bother reasoning with a troll. The guy is clearly an idiot and a racist.

ghengisconor
08-13-2009, 11:06 AM
The fundamental goal of the Palestinian leadership is destruction. They want their terrorist attacks to lead to retaliation, so that more of their people will become terrorists, so that more killing takes place, and so on, in an endless cycle of violence, resulting in . . . death--death to as many people as possible.

Thier's is a culture of death. And I use the word 'culture' lightly here. Until Palestinians start valuing life, their demands for retaliation will exist in perpetuity.

All you've made clear here is that you buy palestinian propaganda, and presumably, you set forth that you believe that the palestinian's do not use propaganda. (In fact, I'm betting you can't even admit they use propaganda).

US_Ranger
08-13-2009, 11:07 AM
Don't bother reasoning with a troll. The guy is clearly an idiot and a racist.

Pot, meet Kettle.

48Volts
08-13-2009, 11:12 AM
The fundamental goal of the Palestinian leadership is destruction. They want their terrorist attacks to lead to retaliation, so that more of their people will become terrorists, so that more killing takes place, and so on, in an endless cycle of violence, resulting in . . . death--death to as many people as possible.

Thier's is a culture of death. And I use the word 'culture' lightly here. Until Palestinians start valuing life, their demands for retaliation will exist in perpetuity.

All you've made clear here is that you buy palestinian propaganda, and presumably, you set forth that you believe that the palestinian's do not use propaganda. (In fact, I'm betting you can't even admit they use propaganda).

hahahahaha

oh wait, you're being serious??

Palestinians just want death and killing and destruction? You mean, they were not invaded, massacred, and oppressed for over 60 years, and they are just simply a terrorist race existing only to attack poor Israel and cause more death???

I'm blown away by some of the ignorance on this board. You probably feel good about yourself too, thinking you're defending democracy or some shyt, while real people are being killed and treated like animals in prison camps simply because of their race and not wanting to leave the land they've lived in for centuries.

bird72
08-13-2009, 11:14 AM
So you choose to trust the people who do the killing as opposed to the people who treat the casualties and document everything about them?

no, i clearly post that IDF is not a unbiased source....

bird72
08-13-2009, 11:17 AM
Don't bother reasoning with a troll. The guy is clearly an idiot and a racist.


hahahahaha

oh wait, you're being serious??

Palestinians just want death and killing and destruction? You mean, they were not invaded, massacred, and oppressed for over 60 years, and they are just simply a terrorist race existing only to attack poor Israel and cause more death???

I'm blown away by some of the ignorance on this board. You probably feel good about yourself too, thinking you're defending democracy or some shyt, while real people are being killed and treated like animals in prison camps simply because of their race and not wanting to leave the land they've lived in for centuries.

who was talking about racism here? only you coward, because only a coward can change the topic in that way.............coward.

NuggzTheNinja
08-13-2009, 11:18 AM
hahahahaha

oh wait, you're being serious??

Palestinians just want death and killing and destruction? You mean, they were not invaded, massacred, and oppressed for over 60 years, and they are just simply a terrorist race existing only to attack poor Israel and cause more death???

I'm blown away by some of the ignorance on this board. You probably feel good about yourself too, thinking you're defending democracy or some shyt, while real people are being killed and treated like animals in prison camps simply because of their race and not wanting to leave the land they've lived in for centuries.

"They", their leaders anyway, just want to win. To this effect, they indoctrinate people, starting in childhood, to kill and hate Jews and the West in general.

Any "leaders" Palestinians may have are essentially pawns of the other Arab countries in the region. Who built the refugee camps? Why won't they take their Arab brothers in as refugees?

Let's be honest here. There's a reason it's called the "Arab-Israeli Conflict" and not the "Palestinian-Israeli conflict". Palestinians are the trash collectors and maids of the Arab world. Other Arabs just use them as a tool for fighting Israel.

48Volts
08-13-2009, 11:23 AM
"They", their leaders anyway, just want to win. To this effect, they indoctrinate people, starting in childhood, to kill and hate Jews and the West in general.

Any "leaders" Palestinians may have are essentially pawns of the other Arab countries in the region. Who built the refugee camps? Why won't they take their Arab brothers in as refugees?

Let's be honest here. There's a reason it's called the "Arab-Israeli Conflict" and not the "Palestinian-Israeli conflict". Palestinians are the trash collectors and maids of the Arab world. Other Arabs just use them as a tool for fighting Israel.

ummm....ok. GJDM. You've uncovered the secret that neighboring arab countries are not doing anything to help Palestinians, and indeed subject them to refugee camps rather than treating them like human beings equal to their citizens. Cool. But if I remember correctly, it wasn't Syria, Egypt, or Jordan that invaded Palestinian cities and made them refugees in the first place. It was bunch of European jews that claimed it was their land and came over to kill and expel the native inhabitants. But, you're right, we should blame other arabs for the plight of the Palestinians, and not their actual occupier.

ghengisconor
08-13-2009, 11:23 AM
hahahahaha

oh wait, you're being serious??

Palestinians just want death and killing and destruction? You mean, they were not invaded, massacred, and oppressed for over 60 years, and they are just simply a terrorist race existing only to attack poor Israel and cause more death???

I'm blown away by some of the ignorance on this board. You probably feel good about yourself too, thinking you're defending democracy or some shyt, while real people are being killed and treated like animals in prison camps simply because of their race and not wanting to leave the land they've lived in for centuries.


So nice to see you don't refute the fact that they are a culture of death: you openly admit they demand war and have no problem putting their women and children and elderly into such a destructive environment. The value of this group of people is only worth what it can bring to the palestinians in terms of sympathy. If you want to paint anyone as an animal, you have only to point at the palestinian leadership - the one that has been elected by its people.

That you call israelis a 'terrorist race' is but a glimpse of your anti-semitism that you assuredly know you can't openly write about on this forum. Or, why else use the word 'race'? At least be a man and admit it.

Mortum
08-13-2009, 11:25 AM
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/090813/world/mideast_conflict_gaza_rights

Israeli soldiers unlawfully shot and killed 11 Palestinian civilians, including four children, who were in groups waving white flags during the Gaza war, Human Rights Watch said on Thursday.

....

and the beat goes on...


If that's not a declaration of war, then what is?

48Volts
08-13-2009, 11:26 AM
Weird, even the founder of Isreal agrees with me :rolleyes:




David Ben Gurion - As quoted in The Jewish Paradox : A personal memoir (1978) by Nahum Goldmann (translated by Steve Cox), p. 99

"I don't understand your optimism. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel.

That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?

They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out."

48Volts
08-13-2009, 11:28 AM
So nice to see you don't refute the fact that they are a culture of death: you openly admit they demand war and have no problem putting their women and children and elderly into such a destructive environment. The value of this group of people is only worth what it can bring to the palestinians in terms of sympathy. If you want to paint anyone as an animal, you have only to point at the palestinian leadership - the one that has been elected by its people.

That you call israelis a 'terrorist race' is but a glimpse of your anti-semitism that you assuredly know you can't openly write about on this forum. Or, why else use the word 'race'? At least be a man and admit it.

Typical pro-isreal propagandist. As soon as the opposing view starts to make a point, you scream anti-semitism. good strategy.

FITNESSKY
08-13-2009, 11:29 AM
Israel is defending themselves. They have everyright to defend there country. If it means that civilians die, then so be it. Palestains are nothing but islamic terrorist. They want to overtake israel so bad and bomb them like its nothing, but when israel defends itself, its consider as wrong, mean or non human....come on.....

US_Ranger
08-13-2009, 11:32 AM
Typical pro-isreal propagandist. As soon as the opposing view starts to make a point, you scream anti-semitism. good strategy.


Don't bother reasoning with a troll. The guy is clearly an idiot and a racist.

You're hitting homeruns today. Look in the mirror champ.

48Volts
08-13-2009, 11:32 AM
Israel is defending themselves. They have everyright to defend there country. If it means that civilians die, then so be it. Palestains are nothing but islamic terrorist. They want to overtake israel so bad and bomb them like its nothing, but when israel defends itself, its consider as wrong, mean or non human....come on.....

You probably think the european settlers were defending themselves against the native americans too, right? :rolleyes:

Nagalfar
08-13-2009, 11:33 AM
ummm....ok. GJDM. You've uncovered the secret that neighboring arab countries are not doing anything to help Palestinians, and indeed subject them to refugee camps rather than treating them like human beings equal to their citizens. Cool. But if I remember correctly, it wasn't Syria, Egypt, or Jordan that invaded Palestinian cities and made them refugees in the first place. It was bunch of European jews that claimed it was their land and came over to kill and expel the native inhabitants. But, you're right, we should blame other arabs for the plight of the Palestinians, and not their actual occupier.

Gaza belongs to Israel, like it or not, Israel captured Gaza, it is war booty, kinda like Kurdistan.. how it is you don't complain about that? Turkey and most everyone else seems too kick the hell out of the Kurds as a matter of routine, yet you have zero problems with that.

Israel captures Gaza in the 6 day war, Israel tries to give Gaza back, Israel is told to "keep Gaza we dont want it back"... Gaza was in fact given to Israel, like it or not.. much the way Kurdistan was given away (much to the disagreement of the Kurds who lived and still live there)..

When you grow up you will learn there is a price that goes with stupidity, Arabs start war, get arses kicked, lose some real estate.. simply the history of the world. No worries, when you mature you too will understand that when you do something foolish there are consequences to that are attached to being foolish, hence the need to try and avoid being a dumbass.

ghengisconor
08-13-2009, 11:35 AM
Typical pro-isreal propagandist. As soon as the opposing view starts to make a point, you scream anti-semitism. good strategy.

As compared to other dictatorships in the area, yeah. You haven't made a 'view' and you have not defended it, thus. I don't scream (your word) "anti-semitism" - you made it clear this was an issue of race (and not about policy).

FITNESSKY
08-13-2009, 11:37 AM
you probably think the european settlers were defending themselves against the native americans too, right? :rolleyes:

well the land was given to people of israel. And yeah europeans were defending themselves against the native americans.....they didnt like us being there, we fought for the land. Sooooo why r u gripping w/o them doing what they did you wouldnt be living here....

FITNESSKY
08-13-2009, 11:40 AM
gaza belongs to israel, like it or not, israel captured gaza, it is war booty, kinda like kurdistan.. How it is you don't complain about that? Turkey and most everyone else seems too kick the hell out of the kurds as a matter of routine, yet you have zero problems with that.

Israel captures gaza in the 6 day war, israel tries to give gaza back, israel is told to "keep gaza we dont want it back"... Gaza was in fact given to israel, like it or not.. Much the way kurdistan was given away (much to the disagreement of the kurds who lived and still live there)..

When you grow up you will learn there is a price that goes with stupidity, arabs start war, get arses kicked, lose some real estate.. Simply the history of the world. No worries, when you mature you too will understand that when you do something foolish there are consequences to that are attached to being foolish, hence the need to try and avoid being a dumbass.



i agree..bible says that land is for the isarelis....and anyone who goes against them will fall.....any nation..

48Volts
08-13-2009, 11:40 AM
Gaza belongs to Israel, like it or not, Israel captured Gaza, it is war booty, kinda like Kurdistan.. how it is you don't complain about that? Turkey and most everyone else seems too kick the hell out of the Kurds as a matter of routine, yet you have zero problems with that.

Israel captures Gaza in the 6 day war, Israel tries to give Gaza back, Israel is told to "keep Gaza we dont want it back"... Gaza was in fact given to Israel, like it or not.. much the way Kurdistan was given away (much to the disagreement of the Kurds who lived and still live there)..

When you grow up you will learn there is a price that goes with stupidity, Arabs start war, get arses kicked, lose some real estate.. simply the history of the world. No worries, when you mature you too will understand that when you do something foolish there are consequences to that are attached to being foolish, hence the need to try and avoid being a dumbass.

Nobody argues the fact the Israel, albeit aided by US and Britain, did in fact defeat the arab armies on more than one occasion and consequently occupied lands palestinians live on. They won, so of course they feel like it's theirs and believe they are right. In the same sense, the Palestinians who are still alive are quite justified in fighting their occupier until they get their freedom. No palestinian is going to just give up and accept living in a prison camp, economically deficient, with no basic infrastructure or military, while neighboring israel is prosperous and peaceful at the expense of Palestinians.

I wonder what your reaction would be if North Korea or China came over here and kicked your ass in 2 wars, moved the entire population of 75% of the states into the remaining states or even outside the country, and told you it's our land now, you can't fight back or you're going to be a terrorist. Will you just accept that, or will you fight back for your freedom? Serious question.

FITNESSKY
08-13-2009, 11:42 AM
nobody argues the fact the israel, albeit aided by us and britain, did in fact defeat the arab armies on more than one occasion and consequently occupied lands palestinians live on. They won, so of course they feel like it's theirs and believe they are right. In the same sense, the palestinians who are still alive are quite justified in fighting their occupier until they get their freedom. No palestinian is going to just give up and accept living in a prison camp, economically deficient, with no basic infrastructure or military, while neighboring israel is prosperous and peaceful at the expense of palestinians.

I wonder what your reaction would be if north korea or china came over here and kicked your ass in 2 wars, moved the entire population of 75% of the states into the remaining states or even outside the country, and told you it's our land now, you can't fight back or you're going to be a terrorist. Will you just accept that, or will you fight back for your freedom? Serious question.

why dont u go live over there, get out of america.........LIVE OVER IN ISAREL AND FIND OUT THE TRUTH, B/C UR FILLED WITH CORRUPTION

bird72
08-13-2009, 11:43 AM
Typical pro-isreal propagandist. As soon as the opposing view starts to make a point, you scream anti-semitism. good strategy.

you were the first who call saying racist you are racist,,,,,shame on you coward...

48Volts
08-13-2009, 11:44 AM
well the land was given to people of israel. And yeah europeans were defending themselves against the native americans.....they didnt like us being there, we fought for the land. Sooooo why r u gripping w/o them doing what they did you wouldnt be living here....


i agree..bible says that land is for the isarelis....and anyone who goes against them will fall.....any nation..

/thread. This guy just provided imperical evidence that Palestine belongs to the jews and anyone that opposes WILL FALL.

Facepalm.jpg

48Volts
08-13-2009, 11:46 AM
why dont u go live over there, get out of america.........LIVE OVER IN ISAREL AND FIND OUT THE TRUTH, B/C UR FILLED WITH CORRUPTION


you were the first who call saying racist you are racist,,,,,shame on you coward...

Yep, I'm done here. See ya in the next thread.

FITNESSKY
08-13-2009, 11:47 AM
/thread. This guy just provided imperical evidence that palestine belongs to the jews and anyone that opposes will fall.

Facepalm.jpg


yeah the bible states that land belongs to them...and any nation that goes aganist the nation of israel will fall. Read ur bible....i guess ur not a fan of it....will the bible predicted that israel will become a nation.....and it did

ghengisconor
08-13-2009, 11:49 AM
/thread. This guy just provided imperical evidence that Palestine belongs to the jews and anyone that opposes WILL FALL.

Facepalm.jpg

I'll agree with you on this. haha. No offense Fitnessky, but the bible should be left out of this argument altogether. I know it's nice to want to talk about it all the time, but it's not relevant. I promise. :)

FITNESSKY
08-13-2009, 11:51 AM
i'll agree with you on this. Haha. No offense fitnessky, but the bible should be left out of this argument altogether. I know it's nice to want to talk about it all the time, but it's not relevant. I promise. :)

will ok...but anyway they have every right to fight for there land....war is war, people do die in war.....i dont understand why people think that when there is war, innocent kids, or w/e will not accidentally get killed

NuggzTheNinja
08-13-2009, 11:53 AM
ummm....ok. GJDM. You've uncovered the secret that neighboring arab countries are not doing anything to help Palestinians, and indeed subject them to refugee camps rather than treating them like human beings equal to their citizens. Cool. But if I remember correctly, it wasn't Syria, Egypt, or Jordan that invaded Palestinian cities and made them refugees in the first place. It was bunch of European jews that claimed it was their land and came over to kill and expel the native inhabitants. But, you're right, we should blame other arabs for the plight of the Palestinians, and not their actual occupier.

Actually it was a combination of the War of Independence (1948) and the United Nations resolution which made them refugees.

The Arabs tried to kill all the Jews in Israel and lost.

This happened 60 years ago, Israel is not going anywhere. The Palestinians can either accept this, and start putting money into something other than propaganda or weapons (like EDUCATION), or they can keep getting themselves killed. Either way is fine with me.

I see that you live in the United States. You've got a lot of nerve telling Israeli Jews that they are occupying someone else's land when you've been living on the land of a sovreign Native American people for the last couple hundred years. And let's not forget that the American Settlers engaged in biological warfare and genocide against these people who, unlike Palestinians, did NOT use terrorism to murder American civilians.

FITNESSKY
08-13-2009, 11:55 AM
actually it was a combination of the war of independence (1948) and the united nations resolution which made them refugees.

The arabs tried to kill all the jews in israel and lost.

This happened 60 years ago, israel is not going anywhere. The palestinians can either accept this, and start putting money into something other than propaganda or weapons (like education), or they can keep getting themselves killed. Either way is fine with me.

wow....good statement

Nagalfar
08-13-2009, 12:06 PM
Nobody argues the fact the Israel, albeit aided by US and Britain, did in fact defeat the arab armies on more than one occasion and consequently occupied lands palestinians live on. They won, so of course they feel like it's theirs and believe they are right.

So you agree it was a war that cost Egypt Gaza, and that in fact Egypt GAVE GAZA TO ISRAEL.. PERIOD, thus Israel is the rightful owner, or are you going to say Turkey, Iraq and Iran is illegally occupying parts of Kurdistan?


In the same sense, the Palestinians who are still alive are quite justified in fighting their occupier until they get their freedom. No palestinian is going to just give up and accept living in a prison camp, economically deficient, with no basic infrastructure or military, while neighboring israel is prosperous and peaceful at the expense of Palestinians.

Seldom are there IDFs within Gaza controlling what happens within it.. thus, the criteria for being occupied is not met, now some of the entrance into Gaza is controlled by Israel, but make no mistake it is not occupied by even the most liberal of meanings.

Explain where your outrage is for Kurdistan, Tibet, Mongolia others.. seems you have no problem with that, nor do you mention Hamas tossing Fatah familes OFF ROOF TOPS, or raping daughters and wives in the streets.. If the Pallys worked at building and caring for their families has hard as they do at sucking the international money and sympathy tit, or making their Pallywood productions of "we are the victims", they probably wouldnt have time to make war..

Frankly if you are enough of a moron to poke a sleeping lion with a stick, and that lion rips you apart, thats natures way of saying your evolution is about to end because your gene pool is too polluted to continue onward.. that is very much the way of nature, and it is also the nature of warfare/world, until the 20th century most captured lands were always held by the victors.. seems the Pallys want to make war and never have to pay the cost for it.. and it people like you who encourage that stupidity.



I wonder what your reaction would be if North Korea or China came over here and kicked your ass in 2 wars, moved the entire population of 75% of the states into the remaining states or even outside the country, and told you it's our land now, you can't fight back or you're going to be a terrorist. Will you just accept that, or will you fight back for your freedom? Serious question.

If they could do it, I dont think there is any question they would try, and if we started a war with them, or was firing rockets into them, sniping at them daily, sending in CHILDREN with bombs strapped to them, I would say they were justified.. see, I am old to understand that there are consequences, and that you have to pay a price for being stupid.. you, are clearly not there yet..

Dont you find it Ironic you defend people who use children as bombs, human shields, rape and slaughter Pallys' for supporting Fatah... and you cry for the rights of the people who do that, and never mention the slaughter they bring to each other, or invite onto their children..

Pallys proclaimed repeatedly to the world "We want this war", they told the world Israel would be handed a massive defeat.. now look what is happening, no real rockets, and its is far calmer.. like it or not, a good arse kicking in a war has brought more peace than whining or talking ever has.

Blindead
08-13-2009, 12:10 PM
lol the IDF denies EVERYTHING that ever shows how callous they can be about civilian life.

Irezumi
08-13-2009, 12:49 PM
How dare anyone say anything bad about Israelis and their millitary you filthy, filthy anti-semites. Don't you know that they are incapable of doing anything wrong and anything negative shown about them is obvious propoganda?

ghengisconor
08-13-2009, 01:50 PM
How dare anyone defend Israel.

FTFY. (because your sarcasm sucks, and the context you gave was a red herring).

Just be a man and say what you feel.

Irezumi
08-13-2009, 01:54 PM
FTFY. (because your sarcasm sucks, and the context you gave was a red herring).

Just be a man and say what you feel.


Cry?

Blindead
08-13-2009, 03:00 PM
Actually it was a combination of the War of Independence (1948) and the United Nations resolution which made them refugees.

The Arabs tried to kill all the Jews in Israel and lost.

This happened 60 years ago, Israel is not going anywhere. The Palestinians can either accept this, and start putting money into something other than propaganda or weapons (like EDUCATION), or they can keep getting themselves killed. Either way is fine with me.

I see that you live in the United States. You've got a lot of nerve telling Israeli Jews that they are occupying someone else's land when you've been living on the land of a sovreign Native American people for the last couple hundred years. And let's not forget that the American Settlers engaged in biological warfare and genocide against these people who, unlike Palestinians, did NOT use terrorism to murder American civilians.

Okay, that's like saying Christians suck because of the Crusades. Unlike you, we allow American Indians all the rights of Americans, let them live wherever they want, don't deny them medicine and water, and even give them tons of benefits not afforded to normal American Citizens.

And you're from the US too cocksucker, stop preaching.

And you saying the Arabs tried to exterminate the Jews is hilarious. Besides the revolt against the British Palestine was peaceful until the Zionists declared independence. But you know, the Zionists totally didn't work with the British to supress the Arabs. And I forgot, paramilitary groups (especially ones that later became the IDF...) are okay when you're the "good guys". The Palestinians lived in Palestine for thousands of years, just as the Jews did, the only difference is that the Palestinians lived there for the entire time, not with a break lasting hundreds of years.

It'd be cool if there were a lot more American Indians. Then maybe 1,000 years from now they could start a civil war and declare independence and we could see how all the Zionists and their supporters felt about it.

ghengisconor
08-13-2009, 03:04 PM
Cry?

Hey now. You should feel the need to cry. I was only trying to help simplify your feelings.

NuggzTheNinja
08-13-2009, 03:17 PM
Okay, that's like saying Christians suck because of the Crusades. Unlike you, we allow American Indians all the rights of Americans, let them live wherever they want, don't deny them medicine and water, and even give them tons of benefits not afforded to normal American Citizens.

And you're from the US too cocksucker, stop preaching.

And you saying the Arabs tried to exterminate the Jews is hilarious. Besides the revolt against the British Palestine was peaceful until the Zionists declared independence. But you know, the Zionists totally didn't work with the British to supress the Arabs. And I forgot, paramilitary groups (especially ones that later became the IDF...) are okay when you're the "good guys". The Palestinians lived in Palestine for thousands of years, just as the Jews did, the only difference is that the Palestinians lived there for the entire time, not with a break lasting hundreds of years.

It'd be cool if there were a lot more American Indians. Then maybe 1,000 years from now they could start a civil war and declare independence and we could see how all the Zionists and their supporters felt about it.

If you want people to take you seriously, then come back when you don't have to resort to namecalling. :rolleyes:

A) The Arab armies had, as their stated goal, the extermination of all Jews in Palestine. It happened again in later wars. Do you really want me to dig up the quotes?

B) Native Americans are driven into reservations and treated like second class citizens hundreds of years after the majority of them were massacred, a good number with biological weapons. I'm not saying that the US government is "bad", simply that any fictional moral highground you think America holds is just that.

C) America was peaceful until Europeans showed up.

D) There is no such group as Palestinians. They're Syrio-Jordanians who happened to be living in the British Mandate at the time. The majority of them were nomadic bedouins, and they still live in Israel. Arab leaders have said this themselves. All Arabs, with the exception of those living in Gaza, can vote, hold work permits, and can hold citizenship. Many do, at Israel's expense. The two terror attacks in Jerusalem a few months ago were carried out by Israeli Arabs. So much for coexistence. :rolleyes:


What resolution do you see? You want all of the Jews to pack up and go back to Europe? I thought Atheists were the all-enlightened pragmatists. Talk about ridiculous ideas...

Blindead
08-13-2009, 06:39 PM
If you want people to take you seriously, then come back when you don't have to resort to namecalling. :rolleyes:

A) The Arab armies had, as their stated goal, the extermination of all Jews in Palestine. It happened again in later wars. Do you really want me to dig up the quotes?

B) Native Americans are driven into reservations and treated like second class citizens hundreds of years after the majority of them were massacred, a good number with biological weapons. I'm not saying that the US government is "bad", simply that any fictional moral highground you think America holds is just that.

C) America was peaceful until Europeans showed up.

D) There is no such group as Palestinians. They're Syrio-Jordanians who happened to be living in the British Mandate at the time. The majority of them were nomadic bedouins, and they still live in Israel. Arab leaders have said this themselves. All Arabs, with the exception of those living in Gaza, can vote, hold work permits, and can hold citizenship. Many do, at Israel's expense. The two terror attacks in Jerusalem a few months ago were carried out by Israeli Arabs. So much for coexistence. :rolleyes:


What resolution do you see? You want all of the Jews to pack up and go back to Europe? I thought Atheists were the all-enlightened pragmatists. Talk about ridiculous ideas...

restort to namecalling? if all I did was insult you you wouldn't have posted such a large post. there was obviously nothing to resort to as you found enough substance to respond to. cry much?

a. false. That's propaganda bull**** that they put out and you know it. The biggest Arab player, Jordan, had no intentions of stopping the creation of Israel. They were secret allies, as I'm sure you know. The Arabs were completely ununited and most of them were more interested in using the situation as an attempt to gain land or influence over each other. Lots of Arabs were understandably pissed, so they played to the masses, who have been, throughout history, regardless of race, religion or time period, quite stupid and hateful.

b. lol, again, total bull****. you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. reservations are right now a great thing for the native americans. they're completely sovereign there, and they have no requirement to live there if they don't want to. and again, like I said, that's the past. the situation in Palestine is quite current. while what we did to the native americans is obviously deplorable it's like comparing apples and oranges. it's akin to saying, hey, the holocaust! okay, we can do what we want now.

c. again...what does this have to do with anything? do you think it has anything to do with the topic at hand? also, it's completely false. do you think native americans never fought each other? roflcopter. sad. you really should study history more.

d. while this one is up for debate, a subject i find extremely interesting, and one that we could go on for hours about, i completely disagree. the fact that you call palestinians syrio-jordanians is completely absurd because your argument, that the palestinians are simply arabs, is quite the opposite of the truth. the jordanians are just arabs with a culture that doesn't differ much from other arabs aside from a small bedouin influence. the palestinians are a people unique in their composition long before the arab invasions and even to this date they retain a culture of their own. even hundreds if not thousands of years ago they were either referred to as palestinians or syrian-palestinians, distinct from arabs. and dont start with that "palestine didn't exist until 1947" bull****. palestinian nationalism had already started in the 19th century, it just skyrocketed when the zionists convinced the british that they should be able to control a country where they made up less than 10% of the population.

here's some genetic sources on the subject
http://bric.postech.ac.kr/science/97now/00_10now/001030a.html

e. of course not. i hope that wasn't some veiled anti-semite jab or something. that wouldn't solve anything and it's completely illogical and unattainable as well. what's done is done. while the UN partition plan was probably the best solution that's obviously ****ed to all hell and there's no way it's applicable anymore. what do i see? israel backs the **** off, leaves palestine alone. if it's such a **** hole as you claim it is, i'm sure it'll implode and then you poor poor oppressed israeli's won't have to worry about it anymore. or, you know, it'll turn out like it was before the radicals had to take over after decades of oppression and abuse, and it'll just become a normal country. i really don't get how you possibly think oppressing an entire region is somehow going to bring peace.

balls2wall
08-13-2009, 07:11 PM
restort to namecalling? if all I did was insult you you wouldn't have posted such a large post. there was obviously nothing to resort to as you found enough substance to respond to. cry much?

a. false. That's propaganda bull**** that they put out and you know it. The biggest Arab player, Jordan, had no intentions of stopping the creation of Israel. They were secret allies, as I'm sure you know. The Arabs were completely ununited and most of them were more interested in using the situation as an attempt to gain land or influence over each other. Lots of Arabs were understandably pissed, so they played to the masses, who have been, throughout history, regardless of race, religion or time period, quite stupid and hateful.



Really now,


On May 27, 1967, Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser?the most powerful leader in the Arab world?asserted, ?Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight.?


President Abdur Rahman Aref of Iraq stated "The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear - to wipe Israel off the map

Pre 6 day war arab propaganda:

http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Six_day_war_into_the_sea.gif

http://www.sixdaywar.co.uk/graphics/cartoon_arab-tanks-500.jpg

http://www.sixdaywar.co.uk/graphics/jewish-skulls-500.jpg
Jewish skulls piled in the ruins of Tel Aviv
- al-Jundi al'Arabi, Syria



You have not a clue, do some research on the lead up to the 6 day war.

Blakerblaker19
08-13-2009, 07:15 PM
Why is Israel the only nation that is expected to get rockets shot at them then make apologies for getting shot at? Can you imagine the **** storm that would come down if Mexicans were sitting on the other side of the border lobbing mortars and shooting rockets into America?

_AdaM_
08-13-2009, 07:16 PM
lol @ people taking Nuggztheninja seriously.

NuggzTheNinja
08-13-2009, 07:17 PM
restort to namecalling? if all I did was insult you you wouldn't have posted such a large post. there was obviously nothing to resort to as you found enough substance to respond to. cry much?

a. false. That's propaganda bull**** that they put out and you know it. The biggest Arab player, Jordan, had no intentions of stopping the creation of Israel. They were secret allies, as I'm sure you know. The Arabs were completely ununited and most of them were more interested in using the situation as an attempt to gain land or influence over each other. Lots of Arabs were understandably pissed, so they played to the masses, who have been, throughout history, regardless of race, religion or time period, quite stupid and hateful.

b. lol, again, total bull****. you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. reservations are right now a great thing for the native americans. they're completely sovereign there, and they have no requirement to live there if they don't want to. and again, like I said, that's the past. the situation in Palestine is quite current. while what we did to the native americans is obviously deplorable it's like comparing apples and oranges. it's akin to saying, hey, the holocaust! okay, we can do what we want now.

c. again...what does this have to do with anything? do you think it has anything to do with the topic at hand? also, it's completely false. do you think native americans never fought each other? roflcopter. sad. you really should study history more.

d. while this one is up for debate, a subject i find extremely interesting, and one that we could go on for hours about, i completely disagree. the fact that you call palestinians syrio-jordanians is completely absurd because your argument, that the palestinians are simply arabs, is quite the opposite of the truth. the jordanians are just arabs with a culture that doesn't differ much from other arabs aside from a small bedouin influence. the palestinians are a people unique in their composition long before the arab invasions and even to this date they retain a culture of their own. even hundreds if not thousands of years ago they were either referred to as palestinians or syrian-palestinians, distinct from arabs. and dont start with that "palestine didn't exist until 1947" bull****. palestinian nationalism had already started in the 19th century, it just skyrocketed when the zionists convinced the british that they should be able to control a country where they made up less than 10% of the population.

here's some genetic sources on the subject
http://bric.postech.ac.kr/science/97now/00_10now/001030a.html

e. of course not. i hope that wasn't some veiled anti-semite jab or something. that wouldn't solve anything and it's completely illogical and unattainable as well. what's done is done. while the UN partition plan was probably the best solution that's obviously ****ed to all hell and there's no way it's applicable anymore. what do i see? israel backs the **** off, leaves palestine alone. if it's such a **** hole as you claim it is, i'm sure it'll implode and then you poor poor oppressed israeli's won't have to worry about it anymore. or, you know, it'll turn out like it was before the radicals had to take over after decades of oppression and abuse, and it'll just become a normal country. i really don't get how you possibly think oppressing an entire region is somehow going to bring peace.

Your canned responses are ridiculous and inaccurate but I will address your final point.

If we're referring to the war in Gaza, then Israel WAS backing off. They did absolutely nothing about the daily rocket attacks on Sderot and other nearby towns for years. Due to political pressure, they decided to invade Gaza to stop the rocket attacks.

The plan of "leaving Palestinians alone" was one-sided. They were smuggling in weapons the entire time and bombing Israeli border towns EVERY DAY. What do you think would happen if Mexico launched rockets into Arizona and Texas every day?

You are clearly too misinformed, or simply uninformed, to hold a logical conversation on this topic.

NuggzTheNinja
08-13-2009, 07:18 PM
lol @ people taking Nuggztheninja seriously.

I'm sorry, oh great Islamic warrior. Now I know my place. :rolleyes:

If you have nothing serious to add, please stop trolling.

_AdaM_
08-13-2009, 07:19 PM
I'm sorry, oh great Islamic warrior. Now I know my place. :rolleyes:

It's kinda hard taking someone whose main goal is to fight Muslims seriously

Blindead
08-13-2009, 07:50 PM
Really now,





Pre 6 day war arab propaganda:

http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Six_day_war_into_the_sea.gif

http://www.sixdaywar.co.uk/graphics/cartoon_arab-tanks-500.jpg

http://www.sixdaywar.co.uk/graphics/jewish-skulls-500.jpg
Jewish skulls piled in the ruins of Tel Aviv
- al-Jundi al'Arabi, Syria



You have not a clue, do some research on the lead up to the 6 day war.

i've read more academic books and sources on the arab israeli conflict than you've probably seen, douchebag.

nuggz said all the arabs wanted to exterminate the jews. some did. some jews wanted to exterminate all of the arabs. i never said they all of them didn't want to destroy israel. which was a completely understandable stance, btw. it's completely comparable to the people who are paranoid about muslims taking over europe, except in this instance an extremely small minority did immigrate in large numbers and then took over the country, leaving only a few tiny areas for the people who had lived there for over 1300 years.

and I should have known having a serious discussion with Nuggz was pointless because every time I've tried before it's come down to him posting nothing but pro-israel rhetoric. please, don't come back to america, at least that way you'll be able to talk **** about us and you won't be talking about your own country.

Dave22reborn
08-13-2009, 08:04 PM
You're right, I wasn't there, so it didn't happen...right?

What do you gain by supporting Israeli massacres of civilians since 1947? Just wondering. Do you think you're supporting freedom, justice, democracy??

I never understand why Americans are so in favor of Israel's racist regime.

You probably believed in the Jenin massacre.

NuggzTheNinja
08-13-2009, 08:07 PM
It's kinda hard taking someone whose main goal is to fight Muslims seriously

Who said my only goal is to fight Muslims?

ghengisconor
08-13-2009, 08:07 PM
i've read more academic books and sources on the arab israeli conflict than you've probably seen, douchebag.

nuggz said all the arabs wanted to exterminate the jews. some did. some jews wanted to exterminate all of the arabs. i never said they all of them didn't want to destroy israel. which was a completely understandable stance, btw. it's completely comparable to the people who are paranoid about muslims taking over europe, except in this instance an extremely small minority did immigrate in large numbers and then took over the country, leaving only a few tiny areas for the people who had lived there for over 1300 years.

and I should have known having a serious discussion with Nuggz was pointless because every time I've tried before it's come down to him posting nothing but pro-israel rhetoric. please, don't come back to america, at least that way you'll be able to talk **** about us and you won't be talking about your own country.

You can read all the books you want. But from an objective standpoint, I still think you're wrong. I get tickled pink by people who feign offense at "pro-israel" defenses. People like that, and yourself, can't tolerate any defense of Israel at any time. You're essentially saying, "Israel can never defend itself." This is absolutely preposterous. Israel may not be defended on a lot of things, but self-preservation against those who wish its people death is one I can stand for. IF israel wanted to destory palestine, it would have done so time and time again. They clearly have acted with the utmost caution because shills cry like little babies who know nothing of having terror on the doorstep.

If israel dropped its border defenses. What do you think would happen? An exchange of flowers, or an exchange of gunfire?

NuggzTheNinja
08-13-2009, 08:09 PM
i've read more academic books and sources on the arab israeli conflict than you've probably seen, douchebag.

nuggz said all the arabs wanted to exterminate the jews. some did. some jews wanted to exterminate all of the arabs. i never said they all of them didn't want to destroy israel. which was a completely understandable stance, btw. it's completely comparable to the people who are paranoid about muslims taking over europe, except in this instance an extremely small minority did immigrate in large numbers and then took over the country, leaving only a few tiny areas for the people who had lived there for over 1300 years.

and I should have known having a serious discussion with Nuggz was pointless because every time I've tried before it's come down to him posting nothing but pro-israel rhetoric. please, don't come back to america, at least that way you'll be able to talk **** about us and you won't be talking about your own country.

I'm already back in America. :p

You really need to grow up. All of the namecalling, especially names like "douchebag", is something that most people grow out of. Some people get stuck in a prepubescent mentality, which is why we see hockey dads beating each other senseless. It would behoove you greatly to devote some time to cultivating your own maturity.

Dave22reborn
08-13-2009, 08:15 PM
Jordan and Israel were secret allies???? Is that why they fought wars against each other???
Some of the response here.....

Dave22reborn
08-13-2009, 08:18 PM
hahahahaha

oh wait, you're being serious??

Palestinians just want death and killing and destruction? You mean, they were not invaded, massacred, and oppressed for over 60 years, and they are just simply a terrorist race existing only to attack poor Israel and cause more death???

I'm blown away by some of the ignorance on this board. You probably feel good about yourself too, thinking you're defending democracy or some shyt, while real people are being killed and treated like animals in prison camps simply because of their race and not wanting to leave the land they've lived in for centuries.

Naw, they truly desire peace, can't you tell, just watch the tv show, HAMAS MICKEY, watch the one where DA EVI JOOZ kill Hamas Mickey.

Weightaholic
08-13-2009, 08:23 PM
I can't believe some morons on the R/P are both claiming obviously biased sources as bastions of unimpeachable credibility.

ZexCui
08-14-2009, 07:00 AM
Yup.

You keep throwing rocks at a bees nest, the bees will eventually respond.

NOW GTFO.

if you're going to make such facile responses, why even bother hitting the reply button?

if the rockets were coming out of tel aviv instead of gaza, do you think israel would still kill ~1000 civilians?

ZexCui
08-14-2009, 07:09 AM
You can read all the books you want. But from an objective standpoint, I still think you're wrong. I get tickled pink by people who feign offense at "pro-israel" defenses. People like that, and yourself, can't tolerate any defense of Israel at any time. You're essentially saying, "Israel can never defend itself." This is absolutely preposterous. Israel may not be defended on a lot of things, but self-preservation against those who wish its people death is one I can stand for. IF israel wanted to destory palestine, it would have done so time and time again. They clearly have acted with the utmost caution because shills cry like little babies who know nothing of having terror on the doorstep.

If israel dropped its border defenses. What do you think would happen? An exchange of flowers, or an exchange of gunfire?

what is he wrong about?

you are "strawmanning" when you accuse people of saying "israel can never defend itself". it is the proportionality of israel's response (btw, they clearly have not acted with the "utmost caution". do you live under a rock? IDF soldiers have admitted to firing at defenseless pregnant women that posed no threat, and there is also the OP of this thread. edit: there are also countless other examples of israel not acting with "utmost caution".) that most people have a problem with. but really, this is obvious, and it is sad that you can't keep up.

ghengisconor
08-14-2009, 08:11 AM
what is he wrong about?

you are "strawmanning" when you accuse people of saying "israel can never defend itself". it is the proportionality of israel's response (btw, they clearly have not acted with the "utmost caution". do you live under a rock? IDF soldiers have admitted to firing at defenseless pregnant women that posed no threat, and there is also the OP of this thread. edit: there are also countless other examples of israel not acting with "utmost caution".) that most people have a problem with. but really, this is obvious, and it is sad that you can't keep up.

So youre issue is with the proportionality of the response.

Thus, you find it acceptable that so long as Israel fires the same number of rockets, with the same type of rocket, you wouldn't have a beef with israel. Yeah f*cking right.

Every non-totalitarian or non-dictatorial nation has a right to defend itself from outside aggression. You suggest that governments cannot defend itself by any greater technological advantage it has over the aggressor. Ultimately, if a man brings a knife to a fight, the defendant cannot use a gun - he must also use a knife. And what standard do you use to arrive at this conclusion? Fairness in war?


I would be just fine if wars were fought with water balloons, but this is not the reality we live in. I would defend any other non-totalitarian, non-dictatorial nation by using its greater technological advantage to defend against an aggressor - my policy isn't with Israel, but is principled on the right to self defense. As much as you want to think I'm defending Israel alone, the truth is, I am not. If anything I defend western values.

Don't be sad. It's not exactly the most prideful position to take, to defend those who beg for war. I do sympathize with you, because, i don't think this will change your mind anyways.

bird72
08-14-2009, 08:14 AM
i've read more academic books and sources on the arab israeli conflict than you've probably seen, douchebag.

Oh, a librarian, we have a librarian here, yuhuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu, a librarian.....



pd.
tell me what you brag, i tell you what you lack....

ZexCui
08-14-2009, 08:17 AM
So youre issue is with the proportionality of the response.

Thus, you find it acceptable that so long as Israel fires the same number of rockets, with the same type of rocket, you wouldn't have a beef with israel. Yeah f*cking right.

Every non-totalitarian or non-dictatorial nation has a right to defend itself from outside aggression. You suggest that governments cannot defend itself by any greater technological advantage it has over the aggressor. Ultimately, if a man brings a knife to a fight, the defendant cannot use a gun - he must also use a knife. And what standard do you use to arrive at this conclusion? Fairness in war?


I would be just fine if wars were fought with water balloons, but this is not the reality we live in. I would defend any other non-totalitarian, non-dictatorial nation by using its greater technological advantage to defend against an aggressor - my policy isn't with Israel, but is principled on the right to self defense. As much as you want to think I'm defending Israel alone, the truth is, I am not. If anything I defend western values.

Don't be sad. It's not exactly the most prideful position to take, to defend those who beg for war. I do sympathize with you, because, i don't think this will change your mind anyways.

you're still strawmanning. i don't remember defending hamas. but, i will say that israel is no better.

it would help if the israeli government would actually make a real attempt at cracking down on soldiers that commit war crimes.

NuggzTheNinja
08-14-2009, 08:43 AM
if you're going to make such facile responses, why even bother hitting the reply button?

if the rockets were coming out of tel aviv instead of gaza, do you think israel would still kill ~1000 civilians?

If rockets were coming out of Tel Aviv, it would be an internal security matter, not an external security matter. So yes, the response would be different. If you're going to accuse other people of strawmanning, then why would you post such a ridiculous question?

bird72
08-14-2009, 08:45 AM
you're still strawmanning. i don't remember defending hamas. but, i will say that israel is no better.

it would help if the israeli government would actually make a real attempt at cracking down on soldiers that commit war crimes.

If rockest don't fall, war don't occurs, if war don't occurs, war crime don't occurs, so , think about that.

NuggzTheNinja
08-14-2009, 08:45 AM
you're still strawmanning. i don't remember defending hamas. but, i will say that israel is no better.

it would help if the israeli government would actually make a real attempt at cracking down on soldiers that commit war crimes.

Soldiers committing "war crimes" is quite rare, but every time there is an abuse it's published in the papers. It's on the news, every incident, for weeks.

There was a case about a year ago where a bunch of idiots from Kfir brigade kidnapped some taxi driver, mostly because they were bored kids who didn't want to be doing 8-16 hours of guard duty every day for a month straight. Anyway, they investigated and it resulted in their officer, who had nothing to do with it, being charged and convicted.

Abuses are always investigated and nearly always produce results if there is sufficient evidence. They just don't broadcast these things to the world, because quite frankly it's not the world's business.

So since you really don't know what you're talking about, unless you learn how to read Hebrew and you can read the newspapers and watch the news, then don't say what they have or have not done to keep the soldiers in line.

Dr.Z
08-14-2009, 09:27 AM
No way the Israeli Military would kill innocent people...

They were probably Hamas, or Human Shields for Hamas.

Ha... ha... ha...

Didn't Israeli Military also shot 2 U.N. workers during truce in Gaza?


Reports of Israeli Military killing innocent people, backed by International Groups... what's really news about this? :cool:

ghengisconor
08-14-2009, 09:56 AM
you're still strawmanning. i don't remember defending hamas. but, i will say that israel is no better.

it would help if the israeli government would actually make a real attempt at cracking down on soldiers that commit war crimes.

Ah yes, more strawmans from you. Because cracking down on soldiers who commit war crimes (the few and, statistically speaking, impossible to stop ever last one) is going to stop the drive to militarily engage israel so that it has no other option but to respond.

Palestinians need war. They're not going to 'destroy the jews and take back thier homeland' with colourful language, are they.

ghengisconor
08-14-2009, 09:58 AM
Soldiers committing "war crimes" is quite rare, but every time there is an abuse it's published in the papers. It's on the news, every incident, for weeks.

There was a case about a year ago where a bunch of idiots from Kfir brigade kidnapped some taxi driver, mostly because they were bored kids who didn't want to be doing 8-16 hours of guard duty every day for a month straight. Anyway, they investigated and it resulted in their officer, who had nothing to do with it, being charged and convicted.

Abuses are always investigated and nearly always produce results if there is sufficient evidence. They just don't broadcast these things to the world, because quite frankly it's not the world's business.

So since you really don't know what you're talking about, unless you learn how to read Hebrew and you can read the newspapers and watch the news, then don't say what they have or have not done to keep the soldiers in line.


To summarize, the Israelis' prosecute those who willfully engage in such activity. Look at the palestinian leadership: they actively promote such actions.

Talk about respect for the law when you believe the israels are openly accepting of such 'war crimes'.

ZexCui
08-14-2009, 10:04 AM
Ah yes, more strawmans from you. Because cracking down on soldiers who commit war crimes (the few and, statistically speaking, impossible to stop ever last one) is going to stop the drive to militarily engage israel so that it has no other option but to respond.

Palestinians need war. They're not going to 'destroy the jews and take back thier homeland' with colourful language, are they.

red herring.

ZexCui
08-14-2009, 10:05 AM
Soldiers committing "war crimes" is quite rare, but every time there is an abuse it's published in the papers. It's on the news, every incident, for weeks.

There was a case about a year ago where a bunch of idiots from Kfir brigade kidnapped some taxi driver, mostly because they were bored kids who didn't want to be doing 8-16 hours of guard duty every day for a month straight. Anyway, they investigated and it resulted in their officer, who had nothing to do with it, being charged and convicted.

Abuses are always investigated and nearly always produce results if there is sufficient evidence. They just don't broadcast these things to the world, because quite frankly it's not the world's business.

So since you really don't know what you're talking about, unless you learn how to read Hebrew and you can read the newspapers and watch the news, then don't say what they have or have not done to keep the soldiers in line.

have any examples of israeli soldiers being prosecuted for more serious war crimes? like murdering innocent palestininians that pose no threat?

bird72
08-14-2009, 10:25 AM
have any examples of israeli soldiers being prosecuted for more serious war crimes? like murdering innocent palestininians that pose no threat?

maybe first you need to show any example of a palestinian being prosecuted for murdering innocent Jews, by the palestininan authority, or hamas.

ZexCui
08-14-2009, 10:27 AM
maybe first you need to show any example of a palestinian being prosecuted for murdering innocent Jews, by the palestininan authority, or hamas.

two wrongs make a right? is this kindergarten?

red herring none the less.

edit: and hamas does not get 3 billion dollars a year from the US, as israel does, so bad comparison btw.

bird72
08-14-2009, 10:31 AM
two wrongs make a right? is this kindergarten?

Oh, now is two wrongs,:rolleyes: so you admit that many innocent Jews was killing by palestinian terrorist. But you ask for Israelis soldier as example of prosecution, that commit such crimes, but get mad that somebody ask the same request to you?:confused:

ZexCui
08-14-2009, 10:43 AM
Oh, now is two wrongs,:rolleyes: so you admit that many innocent Jews was killing by palestinian terrorist. But you ask for Israelis soldier as example of prosecution, that commit such crimes, but get mad that somebody ask the same request to you?:confused:

i never denied that, but it doesn't excuse allowing israeli's to murder innocents as well, now does it?

i am having difficulty deciphering the last part of your post, but i am not a member of hamas fyi, if that is what you are implying.

bird72
08-14-2009, 11:22 AM
i never denied that, but it doesn't excuse allowing israeli's to murder innocents as well, now does it?

i am having difficulty deciphering the last part of your post, but i am not a member of hamas fyi, if that is what you are implying.

nobody can excuse a murder, coming from whatever side.

Blindead
08-14-2009, 03:11 PM
Jordan and Israel were secret allies???? Is that why they fought wars against each other???
Some of the response here.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War#King_Abdullah_I_of_J ordan

enjoy learning. i can supply you with more academic and thoroughly referenced sources if you so wish it.


You can read all the books you want. But from an objective standpoint, I still think you're wrong. I get tickled pink by people who feign offense at "pro-israel" defenses. People like that, and yourself, can't tolerate any defense of Israel at any time. You're essentially saying, "Israel can never defend itself." This is absolutely preposterous. Israel may not be defended on a lot of things, but self-preservation against those who wish its people death is one I can stand for. IF israel wanted to destory palestine, it would have done so time and time again. They clearly have acted with the utmost caution because shills cry like little babies who know nothing of having terror on the doorstep.

If israel dropped its border defenses. What do you think would happen? An exchange of flowers, or an exchange of gunfire?

isreal has a right to defend itself. i don't think they had any right whatsoever to almost completely take over Palestine though. but that's done. but israel doesn't just defend itself. israel takes military actions in palestine that even george bush wouldn't have taken in Iraq.

anyone who argues that completely isolating and controlling access to a region is the best way to get peace, and that the people in there are totally crazy war mongers for wanting to fight the people who are denying them water, food and medicine just might sick in the head. violence on both sides is abhorrent, but israel has never really shown a great desire for peace. when you read deeply on the subject you begin to see the big picture. it's quite depressing.

add onto that that israel has broken off peace talks or made absurd demands so many times yet they continually act as if only the arabs are the blame. the palestinians probably should have accepted the UN partition plan, but if you saw people who are a small minority move to your country and in the space of less than 30 years have them demanding 50% of the land (while still remaning a minority), would you be happy about that?

then you take into account that we should expect more from israel. they're a modern country and they're obviously exponentially more powerful than the palestinians. the palestinians aren't even organized well, there's no concerted political force among them anymore. hamas took over because fatah tried to find peace and failed. but it's not like every palestinians is a ****ing terrorist who hates jews. like i said...there was very little animosity between jews and palestinians before zionism.

ghengisconor
08-14-2009, 03:21 PM
have any examples of israeli soldiers being prosecuted for more serious war crimes? like murdering innocent palestininians that pose no threat?


two wrongs make a right? is this kindergarten?

red herring none the less.

edit: and hamas does not get 3 billion dollars a year from the US, as israel does, so bad comparison btw.

ah yes, israel is bad now because they recieve 3 billion from the united states. brilliant.

i cant wait to hear your next argument.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War#King_Abdullah_I_of_J ordan

enjoy learning. i can supply you with more academic and thoroughly referenced sources if you so wish it.



isreal has a right to defend itself. i don't think they had any right whatsoever to almost completely take over Palestine though. but that's done. but israel doesn't just defend itself. israel takes military actions in palestine that even george bush wouldn't have taken in Iraq.

anyone who argues that completely isolating and controlling access to a region is the best way to get peace, and that the people in there are totally crazy war mongers for wanting to fight the people who are denying them water, food and medicine just might sick in the head. violence on both sides is abhorrent, but israel has never really shown a great desire for peace. when you read deeply on the subject you begin to see the big picture. it's quite depressing.

add onto that that israel has broken off peace talks or made absurd demands so many times yet they continually act as if only the arabs are the blame. the palestinians probably should have accepted the UN partition plan, but if you saw people who are a small minority move to your country and in the space of less than 30 years have them demanding 50% of the land (while still remaning a minority), would you be happy about that?

then you take into account that we should expect more from israel. they're a modern country and they're obviously exponentially more powerful than the palestinians. the palestinians aren't even organized well, there's no concerted political force among them anymore. hamas took over because fatah tried to find peace and failed. but it's not like every palestinians is a ****ing terrorist who hates jews. like i said...there was very little animosity between jews and palestinians before zionism.

remind me of that one time where israel offered up everything the palestineans wanted and was rejected because it wasn't enough? honestly, my memory is short, but I'm pretty sure it happened two years ago.

I agree, not every palestinian hates jews. But that number is certainly miniscule. It's not even a rational hatred of jews - just look at the textbooks they use in the elementary schools. Unequivocal indoctrination imo. To me there is little difference between that type of hatred and the racism one finds in the south, still.

Blindead
08-14-2009, 03:32 PM
ah yes, israel is bad now because they recieve 3 billion from the united states. brilliant.

i cant wait to hear your next argument.




remind me of that one time where israel offered up everything the palestineans wanted and was rejected because it wasn't enough? honestly, my memory is short, but I'm pretty sure it happened two years ago.

I agree, not every palestinian hates jews. But that number is certainly miniscule. It's not even a rational hatred of jews - just look at the textbooks they use in the elementary schools. Unequivocal indoctrination imo. To me there is little difference between that type of hatred and the racism one finds in the south, still.

was this before or after hamas illegally gained control of gaza?

and i disagree with your statement on the jew hate. although most of the palestinians i've spoken to are generally older and more educated. i suppose it's gotten worse since hamas came to power, but all the attention is focused on the negative aspects. i've always believed that if hamas falls out of power again and real peace is found, all of that will die away fairly soon.

ZexCui
08-14-2009, 03:53 PM
ah yes, israel is bad now because they recieve 3 billion from the united states. brilliant.

i cant wait to hear your next argument.


reading comprehension is not your strong suit. in fact, i will rep anyone that can quote an argument that you have made in this thread that is not a logical fallacy

i did not say that at all.