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Arbex
06-14-2009, 03:50 PM
So now I'm actually going to waste my time posting this. And it's a waste of time because I know it will not change anyone's mind. But whatever.

You know, I actually like most of you theists on here but you've finally hit a nerve.

/yes mad. :mad:

http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq96/mudkip777/1227947582682.png

Every time I see a cherry-picker posting, I'm going to direct him/her to this thread.

I cannot understand how you cannot see how illogical it is to do what you do.

Let's try to make this as easy as possible. Here I have a diagram:

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/5883/bible.jpg

Now I have a question:

What does it mean when for any of those variables, you do the opposite?

When you pick what to follow and what not to follow from a "morality" book, YOU ARE CREATING YOUR OWN MORAL CODE.

Can't you see it?

I know most of you Christians on here are genuine people. In today's standards, you are a "good" person. BUT YOUR MORALS DO NOT COME FROM THE BIBLE!

When you cherry-pick parts of the Bible, you are simply telling the world that you have your own moral code. Some of what is in it, you might agree with, but some you don't.

If you follow a specific religion simply because you like PARTS its moral code, then you are being completely illogical and SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED a "Christian", "Muslim", or whatever.

When you come on here and post "nice" passages of the Bible to us atheists implying that the Bible is "good," you are only showing your true character. You are showing who you are, yourself. So when you show parts of it that says "be good to your neighbor" or anything of the kind, then I can tell you're a good person. Not because the Bible tells you to do that--but because of your human intellect.

As we know, morality evolves--it changes over time. Why? Because we gain more knowledge--we advance and change.

Slavery was okay at some point, now it isn't okay anymore. Why? Because we learned that it hurt people. It caused much pain, evil and destruction.

If you are following some "holy" book because of its morality and you are cherry-picking, then you are a major hypocrite. You have gone outside the "Christianity box" of the diagram I posted above, therefore removing you from the "Christian" box.

What does that mean? You're a half Christian? :rolleyes:

You are a good person, not because some book tells you to be. You are a good person because of your intellect. It's all you--NOT GOD.

Understand this and stop making me rage every time I read cherry-pickers posting.

Thank you.

jackamo2887
06-14-2009, 03:51 PM
http://www.revistagamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/jesus-cool.jpg
http://www.revistagamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/jesus-cool.jpg
http://www.revistagamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/jesus-cool.jpg
http://www.revistagamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/jesus-cool.jpg
























http://riajen.com/Roger_Rabbit.png

StarScream_F22
06-14-2009, 03:52 PM
I love the pictures.

ghengisconor
06-14-2009, 03:53 PM
Cliffs?

I know you hate cherry pickers. But man, that's not the battlefield they're willing to play on. Bringing it up time and time again is merely moot, and changes nothing.

Arbex
06-14-2009, 03:54 PM
Cliffs?

I know you hate cherry pickers. But man, that's not the battlefield they're willing to play on. Bringing it up time and time again is merely moot, and changes nothing.

cliffs:

- when you cherry-pick, you create your own moral code.
- morality doesn't come from a book, or God.

E-Dub187
06-14-2009, 03:55 PM
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa78/Hindaril/didntread.gif

Beeewbs
06-14-2009, 04:21 PM
For a guy who comes off as a troll a lot of the time, you can make good, thought out threads when you want to. ;)



When you pick what to follow and what not to follow from a "morality" book, YOU ARE CREATING YOUR OWN MORAL CODE.


Exactly. When they try to tell us that morality is absolute and objectively given from their god, I like to point out how they all pick and choose which morals to follow, so it's still subjective and it will change with their mood.



You are a good person, not because some book tells you to be. You are a good person because of your intellect. It's all you--NOT GOD.


Same can be said in reverse. When people prop up the "bad" morality of their religion, it's all on them as well. They try to make excuses and say it's valid and good because it's what their religion says, but they ignore the verses that contradict that morality.


The irony is that now, others are trolling in your good thread (but when aren't these guys trolling).

Beeewbs
06-14-2009, 04:23 PM
Cliffs?

I know you hate cherry pickers. But man, that's not the battlefield they're willing to play on. Bringing it up time and time again is merely moot, and changes nothing.


Doesn't matter if they're willing to play on it - you drag them onto it. Whenever someone tries to ignore a nasty passage and pull out a contradicting one, you just tell them thanks for showing the Bible contradicts itself and ask them why you should believe one over the other.

BahadurShah
06-14-2009, 04:25 PM
No offense, but this is kind of a stupid thread.

Beliefs don't necessarily translate into actions. For instance, everyone believes it's wrong to lie, but has probably lied at some point in their life. That doesn't mean they're going to say it's OK to lie.

ghengisconor
06-14-2009, 04:26 PM
Doesn't matter if they're willing to play on it - you drag them onto it. Whenever someone tries to ignore a nasty passage and pull out a contradicting one, you just tell them thanks for showing the Bible contradicts itself and ask them why you should believe one over the other.

Good luck. You're just spinning thier wheels. I have a feeling you know this is as ineffective as any other "see, I told you so" comment.

Of course, someone who also supports reality as being subjective, cannot win on this argument EVER.

J-Bol
06-14-2009, 04:28 PM
So have I. :mad:

Vitalshok44
06-14-2009, 04:29 PM
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa78/Hindaril/didntread.gif

lol this cracks me up every time I see it.

Arbex
06-14-2009, 04:44 PM
For a guy who comes off as a troll a lot of the time, you can make good, thought out threads when you want to. ;)

Thanks brah. I've been debating these things for so many years...you eventually reach a point where you're just like ... "Awwww not this **** again!!!"

So you just reply with: "That was stupid." or - insert funny/offensive pic here -

lulz.


Exactly. When they try to tell us that morality is absolute and objectively given from their god, I like to point out how they all pick and choose which morals to follow, so it's still subjective and it will change with their mood.

Yup.


Same can be said in reverse. When people prop up the "bad" morality of their religion, it's all on them as well. They try to make excuses and say it's valid and good because it's what their religion says, but they ignore the verses that contradict that morality.

Yeah. Examples of that would be the Muslims who constantly say "he's not a real Muslim" when some atrocity occurs in the name of Allah.


The irony is that now, others are trolling in your good thread (but when aren't these guys trolling).

LOL!

zodiac666
06-14-2009, 04:46 PM
I personally think someone who doesn't cherry pick their religion is a much dumber lifeform. Lots of people where brought up religious and for some it acutally helps hold their life together (using religion the way it is supposed to be used, to help people out in day to day life). I just don't see how someone who doesn't cherry pick at all can even be considered a decent person, these religions were created a long time ago with a lot of barbaric shyt in them, you would have to be completely retarded not to cherry pick.

Arbex
06-14-2009, 04:48 PM
I personally think someone who doesn't cherry pick their religion is a much dumber lifeform.

I would have to disagree with that.

I have more respect for someone who follows something 100% than someone who cherry-picks.

At least those who follow it 100% are consistent in their beliefs (as ignorant as they may be.)

zodiac666
06-14-2009, 04:48 PM
although I absolutely see your point of view, it really does destroy any argument a religious person has when you point out they cherry pick

BahadurShah
06-14-2009, 04:49 PM
Yeah. Examples of that would be the Muslims who constantly say "he's not a real Muslim" when some atrocity occurs in the name of Allah.


Atheists, Muslims, and Christians all say stupid ****. What, exactly, does that say about the ideologies they each choose to follow?

Saying "he's not a real Muslim" based on one's actions is kind of stupid. One can be 'takfir'd' because of their beliefs, but not usually because of actions that are sinful. Someone committing an atrocity in the name of Allah is still a Muslim, just a misguided/not very good one.

Arbex
06-14-2009, 04:50 PM
Someone committing an atrocity in the name of Allah is still a Muslim, just a misguided/not very good one.

Misguided...lol.

That's exactly the whole point of this thread.

zodiac666
06-14-2009, 04:53 PM
I have more respect for someone who follows something 100% than someone who cherry-picks.


That means you respect a muslim who believes apostates should be killed more than one who doesn't. I used to think like you but when I really thought about it I realized I had to respect someone who was able to compose a logical thought that went against their religion and say "of course you shouldn't kill someone for that"

Arbex
06-14-2009, 04:57 PM
That means you respect a muslim who believes apostates should be killed more than one who doesn't. I used to think like you but when I really thought about it I realized I had to respect someone who was able to compose a logical thought that went against their religion and say "of course you shouldn't kill someone for that"

True, but I view it like this:

I guess you could say that cherry-pickers are at the same "level" as the ones who show consistency.

Following something 100% (even though we have proven parts of it wrong) is just as lame as cherry-picking parts of it and still calling yourself "Christian" or "Muslim" or whatnot.

If you are going to cherry-pick, then stop calling yourself that. That's my point here...

Don't you agree?

zodiac666
06-14-2009, 05:08 PM
True, but I view it like this:

I guess you could say that cherry-pickers are at the same "level" as the ones who show consistency.

Following something 100% (even though we have proven parts of it wrong) is just as lame as cherry-picking parts of it and still calling yourself "Christian" or "Muslim" or whatnot.

If you are going to cherry-pick, then stop calling yourself that. That's my point here...

Don't you agree?

Yes, and that is what makes them so maddening because it's even less logical.

Cherry-pickers...

-more frustrating to argue with
-even less logical than true believers

-still better people because when it comes down to extremely blatently evil shyt their basic view of right and wrong usually kicks in.


I think it's just evolution and cherry-pickers are a step above true believers. Right now muslims are the furthest behind as far as evolution.

BahadurShah
06-14-2009, 05:09 PM
Misguided...lol.

That's exactly the whole point of this thread.

Explain.

The rules of jihad are hard and fast, and those who transgress them are unquestionably transgressing a hard and fast rule of Islam.

I personally know I've never rejected any Islamic principles on this forum, and never said someone who fits the criteria for being Muslim but commits wrongdoing is not a Muslim.

Gabriel Anton
06-14-2009, 05:18 PM
Of course agree with OP.

This irks me as well. I don't understand the concept of part-time half-assed Christianity (insert religion of your choice there).

I mean , either you believe in a Supreme being who is going to give you eternal life or eternal damnation and therefore spend most of your life trying to follow his commands.

Or

you don't.

Does not compute that you can REALLY believe that eternal life/hell hangs in the balance , and yet you don't feel the need to lead a literal biblical devout life.

Forge3
06-14-2009, 05:26 PM
It is not conclusive that we use a current moral template to cull our favorite scripture with.

I submit that my social conditioning, and my genetic personality (that path which the development of my personality gravitates most toward by genetic disposition) impacts on the moral code which I will be most inclined to choose and live by. Nature and nurture influence my choice. As an unconverted person reading the Bible I may be edified by some passages and disgusted with others. And forced to choose, I would of course gravitate to those passages that resonate with my current moral framework.

This is not surprising because the Bible is not a consistent benchmark of moral status. Passages of stone such and such because of such and such action, an eye for an eye do not resonate with Jesus asking who has not sinned to cast the first stone, to love ones enemies, to dwell with sinners. We have here relative moralities; thus people will gravitate to certain passages because of their relative moral code as I take it you have said.

Now at the time of conversion one's moral code may radically shift. Some call this experience being born again. You have the hardened criminal who has suddenly found the Lord. He asks all who he has harmed for forgiveness. He stays away from drugs, he makes peace in his heart with his enemies even after a life of violence and hatred through partaking in racial or intergang wars. So his former cherry picking prior to conversion may have been an eye for an eye hard core. After conversion it is love your enemies.

The question is does the radical change of his moral code and gravitation toward particular passages in the bible indicate:

1.) From a humanist perspective that man is innately good, has he simply defaulted to his highest relative moral stance (most reflective of the term goodness as you apply it) through a dramatic insight wrought by a religious experience? Further was his innate goodness and relative moral template was simply impired due to negative forces at work through nurture and natural causes? In this case we do not need a supernatural influence; though it need be added that such a radical transformation (one that may take 10 years of productive therapy to even possibly accomplish) happening in a moment gives cause to question what is really at work here.

2.) From a Theist perspective: that man is inherently evil, fallen from grace and that the agency of suprernatural grace is needed to transform a person toward spiritual and moral perfection. And any leaps along this path are supernaturally wrought.* So the selections or chosen cherries are modified through the operation of the 'spirit'.


The lynchpin to justify what you call cherry picking is of course that the Bible presents literature with different scales of morality as presented above. Now the fact that Jesus calls us to love more and even with all our being is echoed strongly in His words, works and those who took up the continuing of His mission.

Not all theists agree that man is inherently evil. Some focus upon original blessing more than original sin (i.e. Matthew Fox). That Man is inherently good since they were created from perfect goodness or holiness. That humans fell short of the mark and wrestle with the flesh and the spirit, with desires and conscience. But again goodness is their original nature which the Lord promises to restore in all its fullness and glory.


Now I say to you I do not try to apply all the laws of the Bible nor is there any reason to adhere to everything it presents. I do not sacrifice first born in my backyard, cut animals open and light them on fire. I do not stone prostitutes. Because of what I have received through my conversion, the fruit of prayer I gravitate towards those passages that present compassion, mercy, love and all it's children (Patience, kindness, etc) and grow to live that more deeply everyday. Am I simply manifesting my innate goodness or being ushered there and nutured there through a supernatural agency. I believe so. Namely, that spirit guides and assists me to grow along that way. A tree is known by its fruits.

Violator009
06-14-2009, 05:30 PM
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa78/Hindaril/didntread.gif

Harbinger
06-14-2009, 05:30 PM
Not trying to pick on any one group of cherry-pickers but, I think the gay christians are the worst. Homosexuallity is one of the worst things you can do according to the bible. Or, the ones who say it was mistranslated. If you suspect any part of the bible being wrong then you have to suspect all of it. Or the one that say times have changed and those parts of the scripture no longer apply." That should mean that none of the scriptures apply. Right?

Deathstriker666
06-14-2009, 05:35 PM
What is a cherry picker?

zodiac666
06-14-2009, 05:37 PM
What is a cherry picker?

Someone who waits down near the basket so you can throw him a long ball.

ZexCui
06-14-2009, 05:41 PM
read, i did not. LOL.

_TG_
06-14-2009, 05:45 PM
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/1441/atheistcard2.jpg

paolo59
06-14-2009, 05:56 PM
What is a cherry picker?

Arbex!

ONtop888
06-14-2009, 06:23 PM
So now I'm actually going to waste my time posting this. And it's a waste of time because I know it will not change anyone's mind. But whatever.

You know, I actually like most of you theists on here but you've finally hit a nerve.

/yes mad. :mad:

http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq96/mudkip777/1227947582682.png

Every time I see a cherry-picker posting, I'm going to direct him/her to this thread.

I cannot understand how you cannot see how illogical it is to do what you do.

Let's try to make this as easy as possible. Here I have a diagram:



Now I have a question:

What does it mean when for any of those variables, you do the opposite?

When you pick what to follow and what not to follow from a "morality" book, YOU ARE CREATING YOUR OWN MORAL CODE.

Can't you see it?

I know most of you Christians on here are genuine people. In today's standards, you are a "good" person. BUT YOUR MORALS DO NOT COME FROM THE BIBLE!

When you cherry-pick parts of the Bible, you are simply telling the world that you have your own moral code. Some of what is in it, you might agree with, but some you don't.

If you follow a specific religion simply because you like PARTS its moral code, then you are being completely illogical and SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED a "Christian", "Muslim", or whatever.

When you come on here and post "nice" passages of the Bible to us atheists implying that the Bible is "good," you are only showing your true character. You are showing who you are, yourself. So when you show parts of it that says "be good to your neighbor" or anything of the kind, then I can tell you're a good person. Not because the Bible tells you to do that--but because of your human intellect.

As we know, morality evolves--it changes over time. Why? Because we gain more knowledge--we advance and change.

Slavery was okay at some point, now it isn't okay anymore. Why? Because we learned that it hurt people. It caused much pain, evil and destruction.

If you are following some "holy" book because of its morality and you are cherry-picking, then you are a major hypocrite. You have gone outside the "Christianity box" of the diagram I posted above, therefore removing you from the "Christian" box.

What does that mean? You're a half Christian? :rolleyes:

[size=5]You are a good person, not because some book tells you to be. You are a good person because of your intellect. It's all you--NOT GOD.[/siz

Understand this and stop making me rage every time I read cherry-pickers posting.

Thank you.

Believe so that you may understand

ONtop888
06-14-2009, 06:36 PM
So now I'm actually going to waste my time posting this. And it's a waste of time because I know it will not change anyone's mind. But whatever.

You know, I actually like most of you theists on here but you've finally hit a nerve.

/yes mad. :mad:

http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq96/mudkip777/1227947582682.png

Every time I see a cherry-picker posting, I'm going to direct him/her to this thread.

I cannot understand how you cannot see how illogical it is to do what you do.

Let's try to make this as easy as possible. Here I have a diagram:

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/5883/bible.jpg

Now I have a question:

What does it mean when for any of those variables, you do the opposite?

When you pick what to follow and what not to follow from a "morality" book, YOU ARE CREATING YOUR OWN MORAL CODE.

Can't you see it?

I know most of you Christians on here are genuine people. In today's standards, you are a "good" person. BUT YOUR MORALS DO NOT COME FROM THE BIBLE!

When you cherry-pick parts of the Bible, you are simply telling the world that you have your own moral code. Some of what is in it, you might agree with, but some you don't.

If you follow a specific religion simply because you like PARTS its moral code, then you are being completely illogical and SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED a "Christian", "Muslim", or whatever.

When you come on here and post "nice" passages of the Bible to us atheists implying that the Bible is "good," you are only showing your true character. You are showing who you are, yourself. So when you show parts of it that says "be good to your neighbor" or anything of the kind, then I can tell you're a good person. Not because the Bible tells you to do that--but because of your human intellect.

As we know, morality evolves--it changes over time. Why? Because we gain more knowledge--we advance and change.

Slavery was okay at some point, now it isn't okay anymore. Why? Because we learned that it hurt people. It caused much pain, evil and destruction.

If you are following some "holy" book because of its morality and you are cherry-picking, then you are a major hypocrite. You have gone outside the "Christianity box" of the diagram I posted above, therefore removing you from the "Christian" box.

What does that mean? You're a half Christian? :rolleyes:

You are a good person, not because some book tells you to be. You are a good person because of your intellect. It's all you--NOT GOD.

Understand this and stop making me rage every time I read cherry-pickers posting.

Thank you.

Strong lack of knowledge in the theist department, particularly in Christian theology. Why is it that you believe Christians should adhere to ALL moral codes, even the caustic, societal ones, that were given specifically for Jews many milleniums ago? I don't know which ones of your heros promote this idea, but it's a failed argument. Of what significance is it to me, a 21st century American Catholic, to follow the Levitical law code that states not to trim my beard nor cut the hair around my ears? None. That's why any learned Christian would know that those codes are caustic and meant for a specific period in time to keep the Jews holy (separate) from the surrounding pagan nations.

EDIT::: NO HATE, just admonishing my friend :D

mrawdtsi
06-14-2009, 06:37 PM
I think you pose some very valid points Arbex.

In before this gets VERY ugly.

J-Bol
06-14-2009, 06:39 PM
Strong lack of knowledge in the theist department, particularly in Christian theology. Why is it that you believe Christians should adhere to ALL moral codes, even the caustic, societal ones, that were given specifically for Jews many milleniums ago? I don't know which ones of your heros promote this idea, but it's a failed argument. Of what significance is it to me, a 21st century American Catholic, to follow the Levitical law code that states not to trim my beard nor cut the hair around my ears? None. That's why any learned Christian would know that those codes are caustic and meant for a specific period in time to keep the Jews holy (separate) from the surrounding pagan nations.

EDIT::: NO HATE, just admonishing my friend :D

I was just going to bring this point up and had a response typed out. I then just ended up deleting it as it will fall on deaf ears like every other time I've brought it up. Now I'll just respond to your post like this:

x2

ONtop888
06-14-2009, 06:40 PM
I was just going to bring this point up and had a response typed out. I then just ended up deleting it as it will fall on deaf ears like every other time I've brought it up. Now I'll just respond to your post like this:

x2

lulz, great minds do indeed think alike, or should I say great Christian minds?


;)

Vagitarian
06-14-2009, 06:49 PM
lulz, great minds do indeed think alike, or should I say great Christian minds?


;)

Lulz, teh oxy-morons.

Arbex
06-14-2009, 06:56 PM
Strong lack of knowledge in the theist department, particularly in Christian theology. Why is it that you believe Christians should adhere to ALL moral codes, even the caustic, societal ones, that were given specifically for Jews many milleniums ago?

Of course you don't. You can go on a killing spree and still go to heaven if you believe in Jesus Christ. :D

There is only one way to go to hell and it's blasphemy.


I don't know which ones of your heros promote this idea, but it's a failed argument. Of what significance is it to me, a 21st century American Catholic, to follow the Levitical law code that states not to trim my beard nor cut the hair around my ears? None. That's why any learned Christian would know that those codes are caustic and meant for a specific period in time to keep the Jews holy (separate) from the surrounding pagan nations.

Ohh....so the "word of God" changes over time... :rolleyes:


EDIT::: NO HATE, just admonishing my friend :D

Brah, I'm sorry, but I lol'd at your response.

Arbex
06-14-2009, 06:56 PM
Lulz, teh oxy-morons.

lol.

ONtop888
06-14-2009, 07:02 PM
Of course you don't. You can go on a killing spree and still go to heaven if you believe in Jesus Christ. :D

There is only one way to go to hell and it's blasphemy.
^^was that an excerpt from Dawkins' exegesis on the Bible? :)




Ohh....so the "word of God" changes over time... :rolleyes:
Nope, but the standard to which He holds us to changed after Christ and it changed after every prophet, each one bringing a fuller understanding of His Word.

paolo59
06-14-2009, 07:02 PM
I was just going to bring this point up and had a response typed out. I then just ended up deleting it as it will fall on deaf ears like every other time I've brought it up. Now I'll just respond to your post like this:

x2

LOL I always get a kick out of an atheist "cherry picking" a scripture then throwing it up on the boards for discussion. When you don't know, don't understand, and have no inkling of what scripture states, little wonder that they seem just a tad confused and out of their league. What is that scripture? "Professing themselves wise, they become fools....."

Arbex
06-14-2009, 07:04 PM
LOL I always get a kick out of an atheist "cherry picking" a scripture then throwing it up on the boards for discussion. When you don't know, don't understand, and have no inkling of what scripture states, little wonder that they seem just a tad confused and out of their league. What is that scripture? "Professing themselves wise, they become fools....."

I always get a kick out of the religious dude saying atheists don't understand scripture.

Interpretations, interpretations, interpretations...

:D

ONtop888
06-14-2009, 07:07 PM
I always get a kick out of the religious dude saying atheists don't understand scripture.

Interpretations, interpretations, interpretations...

:D

historical context, context within the chapter, the book, the Bible, the faith...........oo lawd, if only it were so simple.

Vagitarian
06-14-2009, 07:10 PM
historical context, context within the chapter, the book, the Bible, the faith...........oo lawd, if only it were so simple.

I feel bad for your kid. He is going to be brainwashed with your religious bullsh!t and become a religious-retard, just like you, with your false college degree. But it would be epic lulz if your kid became atheist.

...just sayin'...

paolo59
06-14-2009, 07:11 PM
^^was that an excerpt from Dawkins' exegesis on the Bible? :)




Nope, but the standard to which He holds us to changed after Christ and it changed after every prophet, each one bringing a fuller understanding of His Word.

Not to mention that it is a process of coming to full understanding, growing, maturing, and reflecting the relationship with God that is Christianity. There are Christians in every stage of growth and maturity. It is a lifelong journey. One does not qualify a 1 year old by its' innability to converse, understand, and "perform" on the level of his/her 18 year old sibling. They rather make messes of things, fill their diapers with unsavory little gifts, and demand lots of attention. That is precisely what pastoring is all about. This too seems difficult for the atheist to comprehend. But then again, no intention to understand is rather blinding.

rednecksamurai
06-14-2009, 07:12 PM
So now I'm actually going to waste my time posting this. And it's a waste of time because I know it will not change anyone's mind. But whatever.

You know, I actually like most of you theists on here but you've finally hit a nerve.

/yes mad. :mad:

http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq96/mudkip777/1227947582682.png

Every time I see a cherry-picker posting, I'm going to direct him/her to this thread.

I cannot understand how you cannot see how illogical it is to do what you do.

Let's try to make this as easy as possible. Here I have a diagram:

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/5883/bible.jpg

Now I have a question:

What does it mean when for any of those variables, you do the opposite?

When you pick what to follow and what not to follow from a "morality" book, YOU ARE CREATING YOUR OWN MORAL CODE.

Can't you see it?

I know most of you Christians on here are genuine people. In today's standards, you are a "good" person. BUT YOUR MORALS DO NOT COME FROM THE BIBLE!

When you cherry-pick parts of the Bible, you are simply telling the world that you have your own moral code. Some of what is in it, you might agree with, but some you don't.

If you follow a specific religion simply because you like PARTS its moral code, then you are being completely illogical and SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED a "Christian", "Muslim", or whatever.

When you come on here and post "nice" passages of the Bible to us atheists implying that the Bible is "good," you are only showing your true character. You are showing who you are, yourself. So when you show parts of it that says "be good to your neighbor" or anything of the kind, then I can tell you're a good person. Not because the Bible tells you to do that--but because of your human intellect.

As we know, morality evolves--it changes over time. Why? Because we gain more knowledge--we advance and change.

Slavery was okay at some point, now it isn't okay anymore. Why? Because we learned that it hurt people. It caused much pain, evil and destruction.

If you are following some "holy" book because of its morality and you are cherry-picking, then you are a major hypocrite. You have gone outside the "Christianity box" of the diagram I posted above, therefore removing you from the "Christian" box.

What does that mean? You're a half Christian? :rolleyes:

You are a good person, not because some book tells you to be. You are a good person because of your intellect. It's all you--NOT GOD.

Understand this and stop making me rage every time I read cherry-pickers posting.

Thank you.

dude, you really make me laugh.

ONtop888
06-14-2009, 07:12 PM
I feel bad for your kid. He is going to be brainwashed with your religious bullsh!t and become a religious-retard, just like you, with your false college degree. But it would be epic lulz if your kid became atheist.

...just sayin'...

You could use a holy book to dictate your morality because your sense or morality (judging from your post) is severely deficient. I'll pray for you though.

paolo59
06-14-2009, 07:12 PM
I always get a kick out of the religious dude saying atheists don't understand scripture.

Interpretations, interpretations, interpretations...

:D

I would contend that you neither understand, nor in reality even know what it has to say.

Arbex
06-14-2009, 07:12 PM
It is not conclusive that we use a current moral template to cull our favorite scripture with.

I submit that my social conditioning, and my genetic personality (that path which the development of my personality gravitates most toward by genetic disposition) impacts on the moral code which I will be most inclined to choose and live by. Nature and nurture influence my choice. As an unconverted person reading the Bible I may be edified by some passages and disgusted with others. And forced to choose, I would of course gravitate to those passages that resonate with my current moral framework.

Yes. First evidence that there is no ultimate morality.


This is not surprising because the Bible is not a consistent benchmark of moral status. Passages of stone such and such because of such and such action, an eye for an eye do not resonate with Jesus asking who has not sinned to cast the first stone, to love ones enemies, to dwell with sinners. We have here relative moralities; thus people will gravitate to certain passages because of their relative moral code as I take it you have said.

Yes, because the Bible was written by men, who lied about it being from some "God."


Now at the time of conversion one's moral code may radically shift. Some call this experience being born again. You have the hardened criminal who has suddenly found the Lord. He asks all who he has harmed for forgiveness. He stays away from drugs, he makes peace in his heart with his enemies even after a life of violence and hatred through partaking in racial or intergang wars. So his former cherry picking prior to conversion may have been an eye for an eye hard core. After conversion it is love your enemies.

This is not "finding God," this is called human intellect and determinism. Because of the prior events that happened to this person, he has learned a lot and has changed. His future decisions are based on those experiences.


The question is does the radical change of his moral code and gravitation toward particular passages in the bible indicate:

1.) From a humanist perspective that man is innately good, has he simply defaulted to his highest relative moral stance (most reflective of the term goodness as you apply it) through a dramatic insight wrought by a religious experience? Further was his innate goodness and relative moral template was simply impired due to negative forces at work through nurture and natural causes? In this case we do not need a supernatural influence; though it need be added that such a radical transformation (one that may take 10 years of productive therapy to even possibly accomplish) happening in a moment gives cause to question what is really at work here.

Just like I said above: he changed because of his experiences. Hence, his morality is based off his intellect, as I mentioned.


Now I say to you I do not try to apply all the laws of the Bible nor is there any reason to adhere to everything it presents. I do not sacrifice first born in my backyard, cut animals open and light them on fire. I do not stone prostitutes. Because of what I have received through my conversion, the fruit of prayer I gravitate towards those passages that present compassion, mercy, love and all it's children (Patience, kindness, etc) and grow to live that more deeply everyday. Am I simply manifesting my innate goodness or being ushered there and nutured there through a supernatural agency. I believe so. Namely, that spirit guides and assists me to grow along that way. A tree is known by its fruits.

Yes, that's right. So why do you have to claim to be a Christian?

If the passages that you agree with and follow are only PART of the Bible, you're not a Christian, but a humanist.

rea99
06-14-2009, 07:14 PM
Another Arbex, point me to something I can read and not understand and then tell you how you're doing it wrong thread. I lol'd

FLAY
06-14-2009, 07:14 PM
Here's a crazy idea. Every person is entitled to whatever belief they choose without getting ridiculed.

Vagitarian
06-14-2009, 07:14 PM
You could use a holy book to dictate your morality because your sense or morality (judging from your post) is severely deficient. I'll pray for you though.

Oh you mean a fairytale book? Already got dat dere Junglebook, son.

It's been scientifically proven that praying does nothing, what say you nao?


Here's a crazy idea. Every person is entitled to whatever belief they choose without getting ridiculed.

No, that's stupid, because religion is illogical.

"when one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion" - Robert Pirsig.

Arbex
06-14-2009, 07:20 PM
Another Arbex, point me to something I can read and not understand and then tell you how you're doing it wrong thread. I lol'd

Oh hai, aren't you the guy who showed his son my post about love and laughed at me when:

Jakes On You

Helen Fisher LOLS at your ignorance.

http://images.chemistry.com/sites/1000/a/drhelenfisher/dr-helen-fisher.jpg

AltCtrlDel
06-14-2009, 07:28 PM
^^was that an excerpt from Dawkins' exegesis on the Bible? :)




Nope, but the standard to which He holds us to changed after Christ and it changed after every prophet, each one bringing a fuller understanding of His Word.

Nice, does that mean gays will get to have equal rights soon? like, it's already been 2000 years. how long you think we have to wait? (no homo!)

Arbex
06-14-2009, 07:29 PM
Nice, does that mean gays will get to have equal rights soon? like, it's already been 2000 years. how long you think we have to wait?

http://i40.tinypic.com/2r6nwo7.jpg

AronP24
06-14-2009, 07:33 PM
I feel bad for your kid. He is going to be brainwashed with your religious bullsh!t and become a religious-retard, just like you, with your false college degree. But it would be epic lulz if your kid became atheist.

...just sayin'...

I had a long paragraph typed up ranting about how you give the other atheists on the board a bad name by invoking a man, his degree and even his CHILD, as the object of your hatred you hold in your heart torwards religion for one reason or another....
However, as I kept writing my words became as vile as the ones you spewed...
So I will simply say...I hope you find the joy you are obviously looking for but have not yet found.

trailwarrior
06-14-2009, 07:41 PM
It is not conclusive that we use a current moral template to cull our favorite scripture with.

I submit that my social conditioning, and my genetic personality (that path which the development of my personality gravitates most toward by genetic disposition) impacts on the moral code which I will be most inclined to choose and live by. Nature and nurture influence my choice. As an unconverted person reading the Bible I may be edified by some passages and disgusted with others. And forced to choose, I would of course gravitate to those passages that resonate with my current moral framework.

This is not surprising because the Bible is not a consistent benchmark of moral status. Passages of stone such and such because of such and such action, an eye for an eye do not resonate with Jesus asking who has not sinned to cast the first stone, to love ones enemies, to dwell with sinners. We have here relative moralities; thus people will gravitate to certain passages because of their relative moral code as I take it you have said.

Now at the time of conversion one's moral code may radically shift. Some call this experience being born again. You have the hardened criminal who has suddenly found the Lord. He asks all who he has harmed for forgiveness. He stays away from drugs, he makes peace in his heart with his enemies even after a life of violence and hatred through partaking in racial or intergang wars. So his former cherry picking prior to conversion may have been an eye for an eye hard core. After conversion it is love your enemies.

The question is does the radical change of his moral code and gravitation toward particular passages in the bible indicate:

1.) From a humanist perspective that man is innately good, has he simply defaulted to his highest relative moral stance (most reflective of the term goodness as you apply it) through a dramatic insight wrought by a religious experience? Further was his innate goodness and relative moral template was simply impired due to negative forces at work through nurture and natural causes? In this case we do not need a supernatural influence; though it need be added that such a radical transformation (one that may take 10 years of productive therapy to even possibly accomplish) happening in a moment gives cause to question what is really at work here.

2.) From a Theist perspective: that man is inherently evil, fallen from grace and that the agency of suprernatural grace is needed to transform a person toward spiritual and moral perfection. And any leaps along this path are supernaturally wrought.* So the selections or chosen cherries are modified through the operation of the 'spirit'.


The lynchpin to justify what you call cherry picking is of course that the Bible presents literature with different scales of morality as presented above. Now the fact that Jesus calls us to love more and even with all our being is echoed strongly in His words, works and those who took up the continuing of His mission.

Not all theists agree that man is inherently evil. Some focus upon original blessing more than original sin (i.e. Matthew Fox). That Man is inherently good since they were created from perfect goodness or holiness. That humans fell short of the mark and wrestle with the flesh and the spirit, with desires and conscience. But again goodness is their original nature which the Lord promises to restore in all its fullness and glory.


Now I say to you I do not try to apply all the laws of the Bible nor is there any reason to adhere to everything it presents. I do not sacrifice first born in my backyard, cut animals open and light them on fire. I do not stone prostitutes. Because of what I have received through my conversion, the fruit of prayer I gravitate towards those passages that present compassion, mercy, love and all it's children (Patience, kindness, etc) and grow to live that more deeply everyday. Am I simply manifesting my innate goodness or being ushered there and nutured there through a supernatural agency. I believe so. Namely, that spirit guides and assists me to grow along that way. A tree is known by its fruits.
/\
This



Strong lack of knowledge in the theist department, particularly in Christian theology. Why is it that you believe Christians should adhere to ALL moral codes, even the caustic, societal ones, that were given specifically for Jews many milleniums ago? I don't know which ones of your heros promote this idea, but it's a failed argument. Of what significance is it to me, a 21st century American Catholic, to follow the Levitical law code that states not to trim my beard nor cut the hair around my ears? None. That's why any learned Christian would know that those codes are caustic and meant for a specific period in time to keep the Jews holy (separate) from the surrounding pagan nations.
/\
This


To you it may appear as "cherry-picking".

We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" - but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?"

But we have the mind of Christ.

1 Corinthians 2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20corinthians%202:6-16;&version=31;)

/\
This

Vagitarian
06-14-2009, 07:42 PM
I had a long paragraph typed up ranting about how you give the other atheists on the board a bad name by invoking a man, his degree and even his CHILD, as the object of your hatred you hold in your heart torwards religion for one reason or another....
However, as I kept writing my words became as vile as the ones you spewed...
So I will simply say...I hope you find the joy you are obviously looking for but have not yet found.

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/7917/blahblaht.gif (http://img190.imageshack.us/i/blahblaht.gif/)

Arbex
06-14-2009, 07:42 PM
Oh you mean a fairytale book? Already got dat dere Junglebook, son.

It's been scientifically proven that praying does nothing, what say you nao?



No, that's stupid, because religion is illogical.

"when one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion" - Robert Pirsig.

Bro, as much as I agree with you on this, it won't do you any good to be this aggressive.

I was like you at some point but learned to control my frustrations with illogicality.

I know exactly what is going on on your mind when you read this forum, but as I learned, being like that won't do you much good.

I'm sure you'll change, though :)

_TG_
06-14-2009, 07:44 PM
it's great some christians cherry-pick, just imagine if they didn't. :D

Arbex
06-14-2009, 07:45 PM
it's great some christians cherry-pick, just imagine if they didn't. :D

http://i21.tinypic.com/102rqf5.gif

rea99
06-14-2009, 08:05 PM
Oh hai, aren't you the guy who showed his son my post about love and laughed at me when:



If you're referring to the retarded thread you made about love not being anything but a chemical reaction to produce children so therefore lasting "love" didn't exist and they only reason people stay married past their child having days was out of convenience and fear of loneliness. I was the first poster in that thread and 4 pages later as I was reading through the drivel you continued posting my son walked up behind and said something about some other ridiculous comment you made to another poster. We lol'd and I mentioned it in the thread.

So??

Funny someone deleted the whole thread right after that...

The mere thought someone like you could actually think the I or the millions like me stay married for convenience or loneliness would be totally hysterical if it wasn't so sad. But it does explain you're views a great deal. GL in your future therapy.

Arbex
06-14-2009, 08:08 PM
If you're referring to the retarded thread you made about love not being anything but a chemical reaction to produce children so therefore lasting "love" didn't exist and they only reason people stay married past their child having days was out of convenience and fear of loneliness. I was the first poster in that thread and 4 pages later as I was reading through the drivel you continued posting my son walked up behind and said something about some other ridiculous comment you made to another poster. We lol'd and I mentioned it in the thread.

So??

Funny someone deleted the whole thread right after that...

The mere thought someone like you could actually think the I or the millions like me stay married for convenience or loneliness would be totally hysterical if it wasn't so sad. But it does explain you're views a great deal. GL in your future therapy.

lmfao, okay brah.

I'll leave it at that.

ONtop888
06-15-2009, 04:36 AM
I had a long paragraph typed up ranting about how you give the other atheists on the board a bad name by invoking a man, his degree and even his CHILD, as the object of your hatred you hold in your heart torwards religion for one reason or another....
However, as I kept writing my words became as vile as the ones you spewed...
So I will simply say...I hope you find the joy you are obviously looking for but have not yet found.

thanks brother, you're a good dude. I just ignored it because e-tough guys will always be tuuufffff on teh internetzz.

ObedEdom
06-15-2009, 07:11 AM
There is only one way to go to hell and it's blasphemy.



o, master of hermeneutics, Arbex...could you define blasphemy (in the context of eternal damnation) for me?

Arbex
06-15-2009, 07:13 AM
o, master of hermeneutics, Arbex...could you define blasphemy (in the context of eternal damnation) for me?

rjL48QUA0aM

LULZ.

ObedEdom
06-15-2009, 07:15 AM
rjL48QUA0aM

LULZ.

sorry, bro-zilla, at work...will check your 'youtube-will-do-my-talking-for-me' when I gets to da crib

Arbex
06-15-2009, 07:19 AM
sorry, bro-zilla, at work...will check your 'youtube-will-do-my-talking-for-me' when I gets to da crib

That's just Daniel Dannett taking on the Blasphemy Challenge (denying the "Holy Spirit").

He goin' to hell brahhhh, shiet.

:D

ZenBowman
06-15-2009, 07:33 AM
I personally think someone who doesn't cherry pick their religion is a much dumber lifeform. Lots of people where brought up religious and for some it acutally helps hold their life together (using religion the way it is supposed to be used, to help people out in day to day life). I just don't see how someone who doesn't cherry pick at all can even be considered a decent person, these religions were created a long time ago with a lot of barbaric shyt in them, you would have to be completely retarded not to cherry pick.

Agreed. Would rather be a cherry-picker than a fundamentalist nutjob. Jesus himself cherry-picked from the Old Testament.

Edit: My mentor in Christ says it best:

It is not conclusive that we use a current moral template to cull our favorite scripture with.

I submit that my social conditioning, and my genetic personality (that path which the development of my personality gravitates most toward by genetic disposition) impacts on the moral code which I will be most inclined to choose and live by. Nature and nurture influence my choice. As an unconverted person reading the Bible I may be edified by some passages and disgusted with others. And forced to choose, I would of course gravitate to those passages that resonate with my current moral framework.

This is not surprising because the Bible is not a consistent benchmark of moral status. Passages of stone such and such because of such and such action, an eye for an eye do not resonate with Jesus asking who has not sinned to cast the first stone, to love ones enemies, to dwell with sinners. We have here relative moralities; thus people will gravitate to certain passages because of their relative moral code as I take it you have said.

Now at the time of conversion one's moral code may radically shift. Some call this experience being born again. You have the hardened criminal who has suddenly found the Lord. He asks all who he has harmed for forgiveness. He stays away from drugs, he makes peace in his heart with his enemies even after a life of violence and hatred through partaking in racial or intergang wars. So his former cherry picking prior to conversion may have been an eye for an eye hard core. After conversion it is love your enemies.

The question is does the radical change of his moral code and gravitation toward particular passages in the bible indicate:

1.) From a humanist perspective that man is innately good, has he simply defaulted to his highest relative moral stance (most reflective of the term goodness as you apply it) through a dramatic insight wrought by a religious experience? Further was his innate goodness and relative moral template was simply impired due to negative forces at work through nurture and natural causes? In this case we do not need a supernatural influence; though it need be added that such a radical transformation (one that may take 10 years of productive therapy to even possibly accomplish) happening in a moment gives cause to question what is really at work here.

2.) From a Theist perspective: that man is inherently evil, fallen from grace and that the agency of suprernatural grace is needed to transform a person toward spiritual and moral perfection. And any leaps along this path are supernaturally wrought.* So the selections or chosen cherries are modified through the operation of the 'spirit'.


The lynchpin to justify what you call cherry picking is of course that the Bible presents literature with different scales of morality as presented above. Now the fact that Jesus calls us to love more and even with all our being is echoed strongly in His words, works and those who took up the continuing of His mission.

Not all theists agree that man is inherently evil. Some focus upon original blessing more than original sin (i.e. Matthew Fox). That Man is inherently good since they were created from perfect goodness or holiness. That humans fell short of the mark and wrestle with the flesh and the spirit, with desires and conscience. But again goodness is their original nature which the Lord promises to restore in all its fullness and glory.


Now I say to you I do not try to apply all the laws of the Bible nor is there any reason to adhere to everything it presents. I do not sacrifice first born in my backyard, cut animals open and light them on fire. I do not stone prostitutes. Because of what I have received through my conversion, the fruit of prayer I gravitate towards those passages that present compassion, mercy, love and all it's children (Patience, kindness, etc) and grow to live that more deeply everyday. Am I simply manifesting my innate goodness or being ushered there and nutured there through a supernatural agency. I believe so. Namely, that spirit guides and assists me to grow along that way. A tree is known by its fruits.