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lineOUbacker
05-08-2009, 08:47 AM
Has anyone tried it? What do ya think? Reviews, Side effects, pct.


Have at it.

lineOUbacker
05-08-2009, 10:17 AM
bump***

jeremyleinen
05-08-2009, 10:33 AM
reviews seemed to be pretty mixed on AMS hormonals.

lineOUbacker
05-11-2009, 11:50 AM
I've been reading reviews on certain forums and i've seen a lot of people saying they have gained a good amount of strength and muscle in 4-6 weeks. But I have yet to see someone post about neg. sides like blood pressure and anxiety and such.

lineOUbacker
05-11-2009, 04:52 PM
Bumppppp

Eyayo
05-11-2009, 04:54 PM
quigs was talking about sublingual 4ad coming soon. Sounds Awesome.

quigs
05-11-2009, 05:21 PM
quigs was talking about sublingual 4ad coming soon. Sounds Awesome.

Yeah, that is coming very soon...as is sublingual 1-androsterone. I've gotten a chance to try a prototype version of the 1-andro and its quite impressive. Tastes like peppermint. What's interesting is that you can actually feel the conversion to 1-test if held under the tongue long enough.

You see, 1-testosterone causes almost a spicy sensation...kinda like capsaicin. 1-androdione, 1-diol, and 1-androsterone do not have this characteristic. Sure enough, our 1-androsterone UTT product will give the tingly feeling characteristic of 1-test. Cool stuff.

Additionally, the dosage of capsule 4AD product has been increased to 200mg per cap. This will help those who wish to increase their dosages. I honestly feel no difference between 4-androsterone and 4-diol if dosages are adjusted accordingly. At 4-6 caps per day, you will def feel the testosterone increase.

Eyayo
05-11-2009, 05:35 PM
Yeah, that is coming very soon...as is sublingual 1-androsterone. I've gotten a chance to try a prototype version of the 1-andro and its quite impressive. Tastes like peppermint. What's interesting is that you can actually feel the conversion to 1-test if held under the tongue long enough.

You see, 1-testosterone causes almost a spicy sensation...kinda like capsaicin. 1-androdione, 1-diol, and 1-androsterone do not have this characteristic. Sure enough, our 1-androsterone UTT product will give the tingly feeling characteristic of 1-test. Cool stuff.

Additionally, the dosage of capsule 4AD product has been increased to 200mg per cap. This will help those who wish to increase their dosages. I honestly feel no difference between 4-androsterone and 4-diol if dosages are adjusted accordingly. At 4-6 caps per day, you will def feel the testosterone increase.

Awesome!!

Right_Hook
05-19-2009, 07:31 PM
4-AD UTT is now available at our store as well. Gonna be good stuff. :)

http://www.advancedmusclescience.com/best-prohormones/supplements/travis

VaughnTrue
05-19-2009, 07:35 PM
Yeah, that is coming very soon...as is sublingual 1-androsterone. I've gotten a chance to try a prototype version of the 1-andro and its quite impressive. Tastes like peppermint. What's interesting is that you can actually feel the conversion to 1-test if held under the tongue long enough.

You see, 1-testosterone causes almost a spicy sensation...kinda like capsaicin. 1-androdione, 1-diol, and 1-androsterone do not have this characteristic. Sure enough, our 1-androsterone UTT product will give the tingly feeling characteristic of 1-test. Cool stuff.

Additionally, the dosage of capsule 4AD product has been increased to 200mg per cap. This will help those who wish to increase their dosages. I honestly feel no difference between 4-androsterone and 4-diol if dosages are adjusted accordingly. At 4-6 caps per day, you will def feel the testosterone increase.

how does it go through the enzymatic process necessary to convert it to 1-test in the mouth?

9349855
05-19-2009, 07:41 PM
Casser!

BigPapiJR
05-19-2009, 07:56 PM
I have been interested in this stuff. This is supposedly two steps away from testosterone, correct? Anyone have any info on this they can share?

BigCatDaddy
05-20-2009, 10:40 AM
Yeah, that is coming very soon...as is sublingual 1-androsterone. I've gotten a chance to try a prototype version of the 1-andro and its quite impressive. Tastes like peppermint. What's interesting is that you can actually feel the conversion to 1-test if held under the tongue long enough.

You see, 1-testosterone causes almost a spicy sensation...kinda like capsaicin. 1-androdione, 1-diol, and 1-androsterone do not have this characteristic. Sure enough, our 1-androsterone UTT product will give the tingly feeling characteristic of 1-test. Cool stuff.

Additionally, the dosage of capsule 4AD product has been increased to 200mg per cap. This will help those who wish to increase their dosages. I honestly feel no difference between 4-androsterone and 4-diol if dosages are adjusted accordingly. At 4-6 caps per day, you will def feel the testosterone increase.

So that's about 1000 mg's a day in caps. It looks like the UTT is dosed at 40mg per serving UTT what would it take to equal the 1000 mg's?

VaughnTrue
05-20-2009, 10:42 AM
how does it go through the enzymatic process necessary to convert it to 1-test in the mouth?

bump

jeremyleinen
05-20-2009, 10:43 AM
bump

i'm guessing you probably wont get an answer, vaughn.

quigs
05-20-2009, 10:57 AM
how does it go through the enzymatic process necessary to convert it to 1-test in the mouth?


bump

Sorry, didn't see this. There is an abundance of the enzymes that convert steroidal compounds present in the oral mucosa. The one of particular interest is 17-b-HSD.


J Steroid Biochem. 1986 Nov;25(5A):689-93.
Role of granulation tissue and fibroblasts in gingival testosterone metabolism in the rat in vitro.

Ojanotko-Harri A, Hurttia H, Harri MP.
The metabolism of testosterone by experimental granulation tissue, fibroblasts and the oral mucosa of rats of both sexes was studied. The experimental granulation tissue was produced by implanting viscose-cellulose sponges beneath the dorsal skin of female and male rats for 21 days. The granuloma capsules, fibroblasts in the sponges and the oral mucosae were homogenated. Mitochondrial, microsomal and soluble fractions were incubated with [4-14C]testosterone and NADPH for 30 min at pH 7.4 and 37 degrees C. The metabolites were identified with column and TLC and radioautography and quantified with liquid scintillation counting. The experimental granulation tissue and fibroblasts of both sexes showed less activity in metabolizing testosterone than the gingival tissue. The tissues were shown to contain 3 alpha-, 3 beta- and 17 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase and 5 alpha- and 5 beta-steroid hydrogenase activities. The activities of the enzymes in the oral mucosae were higher than in the experimental granulation tissue and fibroblasts.

quigs
05-20-2009, 10:59 AM
i'm guessing you probably wont get an answer, vaughn.

Why not? It was a fair question.

quigs
05-20-2009, 11:01 AM
So that's about 1000 mg's a day in caps. It looks like the UTT is dosed at 40mg per serving UTT what would it take to equal the 1000 mg's?

The recommended dosage is around 2mL per day. There is no exact number to correlate the two as there are a number of factors that go into the equation. A guesstimate would be around 3-4mL daily...but that's just a guess.

BigCatDaddy
05-20-2009, 11:08 AM
The recommended dosage is around 2mL per day. There is no exact number to correlate the two as there are a number of factors that go into the equation. A guesstimate would be around 3-4mL daily...but that's just a guess.

Thanks. Any idea on how long it takes to feel the extra test in the system. 1 week?

quigs
05-20-2009, 11:35 AM
Thanks. Any idea on how long it takes to feel the extra test in the system. 1 week?

Depends on how sensitive you are. I notice the CNS boost with the first dose. Any anabolic effect is likely to take a week or two to really notice.

VaughnTrue
05-20-2009, 11:58 AM
Sorry, didn't see this. There is an abundance of the enzymes that convert steroidal compounds present in the oral mucosa. The one of particular interest is 17-b-HSD.

so 17-b-HSD is found primarily in the masticatory mucosa then I take it? at what levels?


I am not saying I don't believe this product works, I just really dont think I can buy the fact that it will readily convert to 1-test in the mouth. And if it is able to do this(which is sweet), isnt the amount of converted 1-T incredibly low?

Say the user is using 100mg of this 4-ad compound. A massive 25% is converted into 1-T. That means the user is being exposed to 25mg/day of oral 1-Test...far below the normal 300-500mg/day.


A product like this may be much more effective TD, however it still would not be able to give an ample supply of 1-T imo. It may in fact create an anabolic effect, but it will not be due to the 1-test

quigs
05-20-2009, 12:33 PM
so 17-b-HSD is found primarily in the masticatory mucosa then I take it? at what levels?


I am not saying I don't believe this product works, I just really dont think I can buy the fact that it will readily convert to 1-test in the mouth. And if it is able to do this(which is sweet), isnt the amount of converted 1-T incredibly low?

Say the user is using 100mg of this 4-ad compound. A massive 25% is converted into 1-T. That means the user is being exposed to 25mg/day of oral 1-Test...far below the normal 300-500mg/day.


A product like this may be much more effective TD, however it still would not be able to give an ample supply of 1-T imo. It may in fact create an anabolic effect, but it will not be due to the 1-test

Not so much the masticatory mucosa, but more the lining mucosa (ventral tongue and floor of mouth). At what levels, I do not have a specific number, but I do know that it is a sufficient level to have enough conversion to be biologically active. You can test this yourself by putting the 1-androsterone (or 1-dione/diol) under the tongue. At first you will not feel anything, but after 30 seconds to a minute you will feel a burning sensation. This is due to the fact that 1-testosterone is irritating to the mucosa...while 1-andro, 1-dione/diol are not.

Additionally, not all conversion needs to happen sublingually. 17-HSD is abundant in many tissues, including skeletal muscle. This is where we want most conversion to 1-test to take place.

So what I'm saying is that its not really critical whether a significant amount is actually converted sublingually...the issue is whether it is absorbed efficiently to achieve a biological effect. The fact that sublingual administration (like transdermal) will avoid the hepatic first pass means that much less of the absorbed compound will be metabolically deactivated by the liver...meaning more is available where we want it.

This ties into your last question. The numbers that you are using 300-500mg orally is a good figure. That said, a significant portion of this never actually makes it to the target tissues...so the actual biological dosage is much lower. This is mainly due to the first pass hepatic metabolism (which both transdermal and sublingual administration aim to bypass). You see, oral absorption of most of these steroidal hormones is pretty good...where the problem stems is the fact that even though you're getting it through the GI its being degraded in the liver before reaching the target tissue.

I'm sure that you'll agree that a good transdermal dose of 1-test is much lower than an oral dose. This is not because its "absorbed" better (its actually absorbed better in the GI). Its actually because you're avoiding first pass and allowing a larger total percentage of the compound to reach the target tissue where it can be biologically active. The amount absorbed sublingually should be significantly higher than the amount absorbed transdermally due to the relatively thin layer of epithelium and rich sublingual blood vessel and lymphatic supply.

The sublingual approach is kinda cool in that it couples a high absorption rate with the ability to avoid hepatic first pass degradation.

VaughnTrue
05-20-2009, 01:59 PM
Not so much the masticatory mucosa, but more the lining mucosa (ventral tongue and floor of mouth). At what levels, I do not have a specific number, but I do know that it is a sufficient level to have enough conversion to be biologically active. You can test this yourself by putting the 1-androsterone (or 1-dione/diol) under the tongue. At first you will not feel anything, but after 30 seconds to a minute you will feel a burning sensation. This is due to the fact that 1-testosterone is irritating to the mucosa...while 1-andro, 1-dione/diol are not.

Additionally, not all conversion needs to happen sublingually. 17-HSD is abundant in many tissues, including skeletal muscle. This is where we want most conversion to 1-test to take place.

So what I'm saying is that its not really critical whether a significant amount is actually converted sublingually...the issue is whether it is absorbed efficiently to achieve a biological effect. The fact that sublingual administration (like transdermal) will avoid the hepatic first pass means that much less of the absorbed compound will be metabolically deactivated by the liver...meaning more is available where we want it.

This ties into your last question. The numbers that you are using 300-500mg orally is a good figure. That said, a significant portion of this never actually makes it to the target tissues...so the actual biological dosage is much lower. This is mainly due to the first pass hepatic metabolism (which both transdermal and sublingual administration aim to bypass). You see, oral absorption of most of these steroidal hormones is pretty good...where the problem stems is the fact that even though you're getting it through the GI its being degraded in the liver before reaching the target tissue.

I'm sure that you'll agree that a good transdermal dose of 1-test is much lower than an oral dose. This is not because its "absorbed" better (its actually absorbed better in the GI). Its actually because you're avoiding first pass and allowing a larger total percentage of the compound to reach the target tissue where it can be biologically active. The amount absorbed sublingually should be significantly higher than the amount absorbed transdermally due to the relatively thin layer of epithelium and rich sublingual blood vessel and lymphatic supply.

The sublingual approach is kinda cool in that it couples a high absorption rate with the ability to avoid hepatic first pass degradation.

good deal.


hope it works out for you guys. best of luck :)

quigs
05-21-2009, 05:13 PM
good deal.


hope it works out for you guys. best of luck :)

Thanks...I think its going to be a really good product.

BigCatDaddy
05-23-2009, 09:19 PM
Thanks...I think its going to be a really good product.

So I've been doing some more checking and the UTT version is dosed at 40mg per ml(per serving). The pills are 200 mg and you claim 20% absorption rate for the pills and 100% for the UTT method. So if your body is absorbing the same amount per serving what is the advantage of the UTT method compated to the pills? I can see if the UTT method was 5 ml per serving with 30 servings per bottle. Can you explain why the UTT method is better is the absorption rate equals out?

user94984100999
05-24-2009, 06:52 AM
I just finished a cycle of AMS's 1-Androsterone and 4-AD,and i gained alot of strength and muscle mass.2 very good products....I will be doing my next cycle with the same products!!!

BigCatDaddy
05-24-2009, 07:05 AM
I just finished a cycle of AMS's 1-Androsterone and 4-AD,and i gained alot of strength and muscle mass.2 very good products....I will be doing my next cycle with the same products!!!

How did you dose them?

user94984100999
05-24-2009, 07:14 AM
How did you dose them?
I used divided does of each,1-Andro 2 caps in the morning,2 caps at lunch and 2 caps at bed time.And for the 4-AD I done the same schedule.with a total of 6 caps per day of both products.No side affects at all.

johnb1027
05-24-2009, 08:11 AM
This product does basically nothing. I ran it over 2 and a half years ago twice with no results. I didnt know much about the ph/ds world then, but now its very easy to see that if someone released a product and names it after a banned product it is worthless almost all the time. Also if said product can be found @ gnc also pretty much worthless as far as ph/ds are concerned. So if AMS is putting out a new way to take useless product I would have to pass.

BigCatDaddy
05-24-2009, 09:22 AM
I used divided does of each,1-Andro 2 caps in the morning,2 caps at lunch and 2 caps at bed time.And for the 4-AD I done the same schedule.with a total of 6 caps per day of both products.No side affects at all.

I think it's probably all in the dosage. I'll probably plan on having to run at least double the dose to see any results.

BigCatDaddy
05-24-2009, 09:22 AM
This product does basically nothing. I ran it over 2 and a half years ago twice with no results. I didnt know much about the ph/ds world then, but now its very easy to see that if someone released a product and names it after a banned product it is worthless almost all the time. Also if said product can be found @ gnc also pretty much worthless as far as ph/ds are concerned. So if AMS is putting out a new way to take useless product I would have to pass.

How many MG's per day?

user94984100999
05-24-2009, 05:09 PM
I think it's probably all in the dosage. I'll probably plan on having to run at least double the dose to see any results.
the dose i used was the maximum dose of each

johnb1027
05-25-2009, 05:29 AM
How many MG's per day?

3 pills a day i believe was the dosage.

user94984100999
05-25-2009, 05:35 AM
3 pills a day i believe was the dosage.I used 6 a day.The label stated from 3-6 pills per day.

quigs
05-25-2009, 06:37 PM
So I've been doing some more checking and the UTT version is dosed at 40mg per ml(per serving). The pills are 200 mg and you claim 20% absorption rate for the pills and 100% for the UTT method. So if your body is absorbing the same amount per serving what is the advantage of the UTT method compated to the pills? I can see if the UTT method was 5 ml per serving with 30 servings per bottle. Can you explain why the UTT method is better is the absorption rate equals out?

I've never said anything about 20% absorption rate...so I'm not sure where you're getting that. Actual amount of testosterone conversion is probably much lower than that. Here's a post from another board where I explain this a bit better:


Honestly, you're not going to get a perfect answer to this question. You see, there's a lot more that goes into the equation than just xx amount of prohormone = xx amount of target hormone systemically.

See, a big problem with this is the fact that the reactions are not one way. For example, once 1-andro comes in contact with 17-beta-HSD you have conversion to 1-dione...then it converts further to 1-testosterone. The trick is that it may convert to 1-test, but then back to 1-dione, and so forth. The chemical reaction has to reach an equilibrium (with the above mentioned compounds and other minor metabolites). This really confounds the issue.

You see, on paper if you take the 10-15% oral bioavailablity (which is low end) of even the old 4-diol and took it orally at 1,000mg daily (which was a common dose) then according to the numbers this should equal around 700mg-1,050mg of testosterone weekly (not even accounting for ester weight).

If you've taken the old 4-diol, you know that taking 1g daily was nowhere near the physiological effects of taking 700-1000mg of test per week.

So where does this leave us? Well, we all know that the old 4-diol (old 4AD) was still a very effective prohormone to testosterone. It was particularly useful as a base of a stack...commonly with 1-testosterone (or 1AD). While the results weren't as drastic as a gram of test per week, it still produced a very nice anabolic effect, maintained libido, improved mood, etc. When stacked with 1-testosterone, it was one of the most potent pre-ban combinations....a combination that many still long for today.

So anyways, to answer your question...I can't tell you exactly how many mg of 4AD UTT will be equal to xx amount of testosterone injection. I can tell you that the suggested dosage is very effective, and a more fair comparison would be to compare to the old 4-diol.

Hope this helps.

quigs
05-25-2009, 06:40 PM
This product does basically nothing. I ran it over 2 and a half years ago twice with no results. I didnt know much about the ph/ds world then, but now its very easy to see that if someone released a product and names it after a banned product it is worthless almost all the time. Also if said product can be found @ gnc also pretty much worthless as far as ph/ds are concerned. So if AMS is putting out a new way to take useless product I would have to pass.

The AMS products certainly aren't "useless". They may not provide as drastic gains as the harsher 17-alpha-methyl compounds on the market, but they're also a hell of a lot less toxic.


3 pills a day i believe was the dosage.

You weren't taking enough. At your size, 6 caps per day minimum IMO.


I used 6 a day.The label stated from 3-6 pills per day.

Exactly. You're a big dude as well. Glad to hear you liked the products. Give the UTT ones a shot, I think you'll enjoy them.

evilsteve02
05-25-2009, 07:03 PM
Has anyone tried it? What do ya think? Reviews, Side effects, pct.


Have at it.

i think the stuff works, but....it is underdosed and it's expensive....thats' the reason why they give it such a non-toxic account...i think it would be nice to keep your gains on a cut, or if you have cash to burn, double the dose and run it 6 or 8 weeks with 1 andro

quigs
05-25-2009, 07:09 PM
i think the stuff works, but....it is underdosed and it's expensive....thats' the reason why they give it such a non-toxic account...i think it would be nice to keep your gains on a cut, or if you have cash to burn, double the dose and run it 6 or 8 weeks with 1 andro

The "non-toxic account" is because they are non-methylated. Its not something that AMS made up. 1-andro is an extremely effective mass builder. Many will see very good gains at 400-600mg daily. Its more expensive, but so are the raws. Sure its cheaper to run a methyl hormone, but its a hell of a lot more stressful on the liver.

Pick your poison I guess.

GTmauf
05-25-2009, 07:14 PM
Quiqs,

Would the 2ml/day dosage be enough to combat lethargy during a cycle of bold?

quigs
05-25-2009, 07:26 PM
Quiqs,

Would the 2ml/day dosage be enough to combat lethargy during a cycle of bold?

More than likely, yes. Its hard to give a definitive answer as everyone is different though. This should be sufficient for most, but you may want to play with the dosage a bit to fit your needs.

GTmauf
05-26-2009, 06:10 AM
Excellent, I figured the 2ml wouldn't be exact, but as long as it's a general matter of finding the right dosage that's what i was looking for. Thanks

BigCatDaddy
05-26-2009, 04:08 PM
I've never said anything about 20% absorption rate...so I'm not sure where you're getting that. Actual amount of testosterone conversion is probably much lower than that. Here's a post from another board where I explain this a bit better:





I think the write up for the product said 20% absorption rate. I started logging the 4-AD UTT over at prohormone forum today if you want to stop in and check it out. I'm open to any advice as I run through it.

evilsteve02
05-26-2009, 04:14 PM
The "non-toxic account" is because they are non-methylated. Its not something that AMS made up. 1-andro is an extremely effective mass builder. Many will see very good gains at 400-600mg daily. Its more expensive, but so are the raws. Sure its cheaper to run a methyl hormone, but its a hell of a lot more stressful on the liver.

Pick your poison I guess.

oh, i am not implying that it is made up...i was just saying becuase it is underdosed your liver will be safe. I agree, i took it when i was younger and got very strong...it was just very expensive.

quigs
05-26-2009, 06:15 PM
I think the write up for the product said 20% absorption rate. I started logging the 4-AD UTT over at prohormone forum today if you want to stop in and check it out. I'm open to any advice as I run through it.

Hmm...the write-up for 4AD UTT that I posted over at aminds quotes 15% for the capsules. This is based on the 1,4AD studies though. In reality, its really impossible to give an exact number as there just haven't been enough studies done on these compounds.

I don't normally post over there, but I'll certainly stop over for a look.

quigs
05-26-2009, 06:17 PM
oh, i am not implying that it is made up...i was just saying becuase it is underdosed your liver will be safe. I agree, i took it when i was younger and got very strong...it was just very expensive.

Gotcha. Well, honestly, even in very high dosages of these compounds the liver toxicity is pretty minimal. Its not a dose-related phenomenon with them.

quigs
05-26-2009, 06:19 PM
Excellent, I figured the 2ml wouldn't be exact, but as long as it's a general matter of finding the right dosage that's what i was looking for. Thanks

No problem...that's what I'm here for. It would be awesome if you ran a log with this!

evilsteve02
05-26-2009, 06:26 PM
Gotcha. Well, honestly, even in very high dosages of these compounds the liver toxicity is pretty minimal. Its not a dose-related phenomenon with them.

cool, thanks