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Jay Rawd
02-15-2009, 10:22 PM
Is this a stupid thing to do? Let's say as I progress on a fat loss diet I actually try and add more sets and reps to my workout plan. Is this bad for fat loss? I would guess that my body would try and fight back and prevent me from losing fat since I'm overdoing it.

From what I've learned, it's actually better to cut back on training volume as calories drop further. Any thoughts?

adwilk
02-15-2009, 10:51 PM
Thats a great question... Certainly the more you restrict calories the more you could possibly risk overtraining. Provided that you eat correctly and implement a split that only uses the muscles once a week, you'll be fine.

When I started i got to eat about 3000 calories, could lift all I wanted but about 6 months in i was down to 2500 cals a day and went to a a 4 day split. On workout days I get 300 cals from a recovery drink.

As far as affecting fat loss, increased intensity will burn more calories and maintenance of muscle will keep metabolism up and keep you from plateauing your fat loss. End of the day, cals in v cals out and if the former is smaller than the latter you're drop weight... keep working those muscles and that weight will continue to be body fat.

Jay Rawd
02-15-2009, 10:58 PM
Thats a great question... Certainly the more you restrict calories the more you could possibly risk overtraining. Provided that you eat correctly and implement a split that only uses the muscles once a week, you'll be fine.

When I started i got to eat about 3000 calories, could lift all I wanted but about 6 months in i was down to 2500 cals a day and went to a a 4 day split. On workout days I get 300 cals from a recovery drink.

As far as affecting fat loss, increased intensity will burn more calories and maintenance of muscle will keep metabolism up and keep you from plateauing your fat loss. End of the day, cals in v cals out and if the former is smaller than the latter you're drop weight... keep working those muscles and that weight will continue to be body fat.
The thing is, the body does fight back against fat loss. If calorie expenditure is too much, perhaps it would maintain bodyfat and end up burning muscle?

I was thinking of a 12 week fat loss plan, losing 1-1.5 lb. a week. I read an article by Dr. Jim Stoppani on Fat Loss where he lays out a training and diet plan, which is like this

Training:

Weeks 1-4: Weights (body part split, training each bodypart once a week) 4 days a week, HIIT 3 days a week
Weeks 5-8: Weights (Push/Pull/Legs twice) 6 days a week, HIIT 4 days a week
Weeks 9-12: Weights (Push/Pull/Legs twice) 6 days a week, HIIT 5 days a week

Diet (Calorie breakdown):

Weeks 1-4: 16xbodyweight on lifting days, 13xbodyweight on rest days
Weeks 5-8: 14xbodyweight 6 days a week (lifting days), one day carb-up (rest day) at 18xbodyweight
Weeks 9-12: 12xbodyweight 6 days a week (lifting days), one day carb-up (rest day) at 18xbodyweight

I'm thinking that as calories drop into such a low range that adding more volume would be counter-intuitive.

Also, the plan incorporates lighter weight Giant Sets (4 different exercises right after another with no rest in between to yield about 80-100 reps total) for more calorie burning (and possibly for a pump and recovery). I'm not familiar with lighter rep training, though. I always thought it led to muscle loss.

Emma-Leigh
02-15-2009, 11:50 PM
The thing is, the body does fight back against fat loss. If calorie expenditure is too much, perhaps it would maintain bodyfat and end up burning muscle?

I was thinking of a 12 week fat loss plan, losing 1-1.5 lb. a week. I read an article by Dr. Jim Stoppani on Fat Loss where he lays out a training and diet plan, which is like this

Training:

Weeks 1-4: Weights (body part split, training each bodypart once a week) 4 days a week, HIIT 3 days a week
Weeks 5-8: Weights (Push/Pull/Legs twice) 6 days a week, HIIT 4 days a week
Weeks 9-12: Weights (Push/Pull/Legs twice) 6 days a week, HIIT 5 days a week

Diet (Calorie breakdown):

Weeks 1-4: 16xbodyweight on lifting days, 13xbodyweight on rest days
Weeks 5-8: 14xbodyweight 6 days a week (lifting days), one day carb-up (rest day) at 18xbodyweight
Weeks 9-12: 12xbodyweight 6 days a week (lifting days), one day carb-up (rest day) at 18xbodyweight

I'm thinking that as calories drop into such a low range that adding more volume would be counter-intuitive.

Also, the plan incorporates lighter weight Giant Sets (4 different exercises right after another with no rest in between to yield about 80-100 reps total) for more calorie burning (and possibly for a pump and recovery). I'm not familiar with lighter rep training, though. I always thought it led to muscle loss.
You are correct - generally speaking: low cals = less volume.
Reason being is that as energy decreases you'll *usually* decrease your endurance/ stamina/ recovery... So if you try to maintain volume you'll lose out on intensity (% RM load) which is what is seen as the stimulus to retain muscle. Which = more lean mass lost.

Also --> in general the plan you posted from Dr Stoppani:
1. doing that much volume when cutting = silly (6 x a week weights)
2. doing that much HIIT, even if you were on normal cals = silly... doing it when doing legs 2 x a week and when dieting (I would imagine on low cals) = even more silly.
3. doing high rep pumpy low weight training when dieting = silly... see aforementioned comments on load being the stimuli for muscle... (you want to make sure most of your sets are upward toward 80-85% 1 RM - which is essentially in the 8 or under range)....
:o

My suggestion would be to keep your weights as WEIGHTS. Lower volume slightly as you cut, but keep intensity high... Then create a calorie deficit from your diet + added cardio if required (but not that much HIIT).

Jay Rawd
02-16-2009, 12:04 AM
You are correct - generally speaking: low cals = less volume.
Reason being is that as energy decreases you'll *usually* decrease your endurance/ stamina/ recovery... So if you try to maintain volume you'll lose out on intensity (% RM load) which is what is seen as the stimulus to retain muscle. Which = more lean mass lost.

Also --> in general the plan you posted from Dr Stoppani:
1. doing that much volume when cutting = silly (6 x a week weights)
2. doing that much HIIT, even if you were on normal cals = silly... doing it when doing legs 2 x a week and when dieting (I would imagine on low cals) = even more silly.
3. doing high rep pumpy low weight training when dieting = silly... see aforementioned comments on load being the stimuli for muscle... (you want to make sure most of your sets are upward toward 80-85% 1 RM - which is essentially in the 8 or under range)....
:o

My suggestion would be to keep your weights as WEIGHTS. Lower volume slightly as you cut, but keep intensity high... Then create a calorie deficit from your diet + added cardio if required (but not that much HIIT).
Thanks alot, Emma-Leigh! I'd rep you but I'm out, it seems. :(

I'm thinking of taking Dr. Stoppani's program and flipping it around, having the higher volume toward the beginning of the program and the lower volume once a week toward the end, and possibly keeping the giant sets but with reps in the 5-8 range.

adwilk
02-16-2009, 12:14 AM
Ok, I think I better understand what you were asking about now..

This is a way oversimplified response but maybe it'll make some sense to others reading...

From what I understand the intensity of the workout affects the hormonal function of the repair phase.. higher intensity (more weight less reps) will result in a higher efficiency of muscle retention.

The body wants to fix whats broken, and again from a slightly limited understanding, muscle doesnt like to be burned in recovery.

As far as the expenditure question, just make sure you eat enough to supply necessary recovery requirements and your deficit will attribute to fat loss. You're body will only fight it if you're deficit is to high.

From a training standpoint, there's a happy medium of More Training and More eating VS Less training and Less Eating but the results from a real-life perspective seem to be similar

Emma-Leigh
02-16-2009, 12:25 AM
Welcome - and, yes, a much more sensible option would be to decrease volume as diet progressed.

I still don't like his program...
As mentioned - that level of HIIT is far too much. Plus - there is just too much training full stop at the beginning of things... Lots of resistance training = not much recovery between = poor outcomes.
Then with the 1 x a week training per muscle group - this is too infrequent for most natties... You need to be training once every 3-5 days... 3 if you have good recovery - 5 if poor/ dieting (also depends on volume of workouts)...

Mourning Tide
02-16-2009, 12:56 AM
im currently cutting with a pretty high-volume program (5 days / week, ~60 min per session) and am seeing great results with just 4 sessions of LISS/MISS cardio a week , i tried adding HIIT but it was just too much. my number one priority is maintaining strength, which im doing successfully and have even made gains in a few small iso lifts.

just make sure you eat enough , dont make the mistake of dropping calories so low (and suddenly) that ur body and mind's recovery is impaired. also take advantage of carbs and nutrient timing

written by an endo at the leanest pt in his life......

Jay Rawd
02-16-2009, 08:59 PM
Welcome - and, yes, a much more sensible option would be to decrease volume as diet progressed.

I still don't like his program...
As mentioned - that level of HIIT is far too much. Plus - there is just too much training full stop at the beginning of things... Lots of resistance training = not much recovery between = poor outcomes.
Then with the 1 x a week training per muscle group - this is too infrequent for most natties... You need to be training once every 3-5 days... 3 if you have good recovery - 5 if poor/ dieting (also depends on volume of workouts)...
I was thinking of doing this instead:

Monday: Rest + MISS
Tuesday: 10x3 full-body routine + HIIT
Wednesday: Rest + LISS
Thursday: Rest + MISS
Friday: Rest + LISS
Saturday: 10x3 full-body routine + HIIT
Sunday: Rest

The full-body routine is 10 sets of 3 at my 10 rep max, with 4 compound lifts (deads, squats, bench, barbell rows, etc.)

Here's the caloric breakdown:

Monday: 10xbodyweight (p/c/f=30/15/55)
Tuesday: 26xbodyweight (p/c/f=15/70/15)
Wednesday: 10xbodyweight (p/c/f=30/15/55)
Thursday: 10xbodyweight (p/c/f=30/15/55)
Friday: 10xbodyweight (p/c/f=30/15/55)
Saturday: 26xbodyweight (p/c/f=15/70/15)
Sunday: 10xbodyweight (p/c/f=30/15/55)

The diet is a Cyclical Ketogenic Diet, with Tuesday and Saturday being Carb-ups. Most CKD's have the carb-ups on rest days but I figure being in ketosis while lifting is hardly muscle sparing, so I figure it's best to take myself OUT of ketosis for my workout days and fill my muscles with glycogen so that I can pound the weights and spare the lean tissue. The calories are set up to be high for glycogen supercompensation. I find that CKD's have the potential for fat gain since you're carbing up on rest days and being super weak (at least in my case) during your lifting days, which are keto days. I found myself losing muscle and just gaining back fat when I did keto, although the fat loss was super fast and the diet made me look very "dry" which I loved.

I sort of invented this diet myself since I find my performance totally suffering on keto, but at the same time liking the cuts it brought out. I'm seeing this diet as a happy medium between moderate carb cutting diets and ketogenic diets. Maybe Keto will finally work for me this time.

As far as why I'm working out two times a week, it's because the calories are super low the rest of the days and I still want to have two 24 hour carb-ups where I work out instead of one 48 hour carb-up where I don't work out. It ends up being the same caloric expenditure total for the week but with the potential for a protein sparing effect.

I also find that 10x3 with 4 exercises a session and 2 times a week is SUPER effective for fat loss coupled with HIIT after each session. As far as the LISS and MISS go, LISS is 45-60 minutes of walking and MISS is around 15-20 of jumping rope.