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View Full Version : Israel has no right to thive as a nation.



Halos2thorns
01-29-2009, 03:55 PM
To start this off, I have no prejudice against the Jewish nor Islamic religions. I am catholic and live in the US, however I see Israel as a huge oppression to peace in the world.

MY views:
In my opinion Israel has no right to exist, after the holocaust the world felt sympathetic and pity over what happened to the Jews, and recognized the Jewish religion has no real state and decided to give them one. Instead of giving them one in Germany, Russia, Uganda all of which were offered and pondered over, the Israels settled on Palestine seeing it as their god given right to have the land. With the backing of many Allied countries Israel was given the land, and Palestine received little to no compensation and soon obviously retaliated with the assistance of surrounding Arab nations however they failed and even lost more land in the process.

Why this is ridiculous in my opinion: Sympathy and pity is no reason to literally take a country from the inhabitants then just hand it over to someone else. Think what would happen if this happened today to where you lived, how enraged would you be!?

Recent Events:
In the recent Palestinian-Israeli conflict OVER 1,000 Palestians have died, less the 30 Israelis. Oh and for the record the Palestinian deaths include 315 children and 95 women. I understand Israel is trying to defend themselves from Hamas but it is clear that they are doing little and killing countless civilians in the process, to the point of where its getting ridiculous. Lets also not forget Hamas has never killed U.N. aid workers, Israel has.

Why this is ridiculous in my opinion:
Go for Hamas all you want! BUT "deaths include 315 children and 95 women." are you serious?! This is outrageous, Israels hands is covered with blood. Israel is doing the same thing that was done to them (obviously on a much lower scale), they are clearly unrightfully killing 100's of civilians for no reason. Lobbing missiles into villages, schools, and hospitals where you suspect Hamas to be is not the way to rid your nation of terrorists. Israel needs to remember, they have made possibly more enemies and terrorists in the past conflict then they have nearly gotten rid of! Hell if your family or child of wife was killed in a bombing wouldn't you take/want revenge, I sure as hell would!

Its time for America to stop backing Israel over every thing. Israel is oppressive, theres no reason for them to do 90% of the things they have done/are doing.

I know many people will disagree, but this is just what I think.

UsernameTaken
01-29-2009, 03:56 PM
Repped on recharge.

BigBen85
01-29-2009, 04:06 PM
Do you like living in the US? the reason why I ask is because, following yout line of thinking about Israel then you must also think that the USA, Canada, New Zealand, and Australia have no right to exist either. because they were formed in much the same way.

Halos2thorns
01-29-2009, 04:14 PM
Do you like living in the US? the reason why I ask is because, following yout line of thinking about Israel then you must also think that the USA, Canada, New Zealand, and Australia have no right to exist either. because they were formed in much the same way.

I'm not familiar with how Canada, New Zealand and Australia were founded but the fact that you compare America's founding and Israels on the same level is just plain wrong.

America:
-Mainly united front to revolt by the inhabitants. (but with reason)
-Actually being somewhat oppressed through ridiculous taxes and other sorts by England.
-England still had a country to go back to, and almost all British civilians who were against the formation of America lived in Britain.

Israel
-Took almost all of Palestine's land, basically tearing the country apart.
-Were not really being oppressed by Palestine, pretty sure it at the time would be the Germans. Take some of Germany?!
-Has continued to harm, oppress, and devastate whats left of Palestine. America is on great terms with England and has been for quite some time.

sfvalley
01-29-2009, 04:15 PM
Do you like living in the US? the reason why I ask is because, following yout line of thinking about Israel then you must also think that the USA, Canada, New Zealand, and Australia have no right to exist either. because they were formed in much the same way.

If they're going to steal land and oppress another people they should at least fu cking do it on their own(they shouldnt do it at all). The US has NO business sending them billions of dollars every year.

Halos2thorns
01-29-2009, 04:17 PM
If they're going to steal land and oppress another people they should at least fu cking do it on their own(they shouldnt do it at all). The US has NO business sending them billions of dollars every year.

Agreed, the fact that America still sends aid to Israel while the money could be spent on SO much better and more important things.

Darfur
Economy
Aids in Africa
Our own War thats happening in Afghanistan and Iraq

xXBoStErXx
01-29-2009, 04:18 PM
I'm not familiar with how Canada, New Zealand and Australia were founded but the fact that you compare America's founding and Israels on the same level is just plain wrong.

America:
-Mainly united front to revolt by the inhabitants. (but with reason)
-Actually being somewhat oppressed through ridiculous taxes and other sorts by England.
-England still had a country to go back to, and almost all British civilians who were against the formation of America lived in Britain.

Israel
-Took almost all of Palestine's land, basically tearing the country apart.
-Were not really being oppressed by Palestine, pretty sure it at the time would be the Germans. Take some of Germany?!
-Has continued to harm, oppress, and devastate whats left of Palestine. America is on great terms with England and has been for quite some time.

The "inhabitants" weren't the first inhabitants.
The "Native Americans" were ousted by the Europeans when they got here. You cannot say that Israel shouldn't exist based on that platform. Us as Americans have no "manifest destiny" to this land. Our ancestors conquered it, and we benefit from the spoils of war.

Israel didn't take anything. It was given.
If you were getting bombed, you'd fight back too.

Collateral damage is a part of war. Deal with it.

sfvalley
01-29-2009, 04:20 PM
The "inhabitants" weren't the first inhabitants.
The "Native Americans" were ousted by the Europeans when they got here. You cannot say that Israel shouldn't exist based on that platform. Us as Americans have no "manifest destiny" to this land. Our ancestors conquered it, and we benefit from the spoils of war.

Israel didn't take anything. It was given.
If you were getting bombed, you'd fight back too.

Collateral damage is a part of war. Deal with it.

Yeah, except they're waging war with US TAX DOLLARS.

ekolow
01-29-2009, 04:22 PM
America:
-Mainly united front to revolt by the inhabitants. (but with reason)
-Actually being somewhat oppressed through ridiculous taxes and other sorts by England.
-England still had a country to go back to, and almost all British civilians who were against the formation of America lived in Britain.
.

Your forgetting the native american tribes that were killed off or displaced so America could be what it is.
Do you think that Israel had an army of it's own after WW2? No, The allies(U.S Britain, ect) gave the land to the Jewish people. If anyone is at fault, it is the Allies from WW2.

ll ReNeGaDe ll
01-29-2009, 04:32 PM
Recent Events:
In the recent Palestinian-Israeli conflict OVER 1,000 Palestians have died, less the 30 Israelis.

So Israel should stop attacking once 30 Palestinians have been killed, even though millions of Jews are hiding in shelters?


Oh and for the record the Palestinian deaths include 315 children and 95 women.

Which is a pretty small percentage of people who were killed.

bird72
01-29-2009, 04:33 PM
only one thing op.

israel is not a nation is a state.(culturally is a nation)

and israel have the rigth to exist.

or you want also to wipe out them?

ll ReNeGaDe ll
01-29-2009, 04:34 PM
only one thing op.

israel is not a nation is a state.(culturally is a nation)

and israel have the rigth to exist.

or you want also to wipe out them?

Maybe the OP is Ahmedinejad.

bird72
01-29-2009, 04:37 PM
Maybe the OP is Ahmedinejad.

no you are complety wrong!

the op is 6'-0" tall.


Ahmedinejad, 5'-3". :D

paolo59
01-29-2009, 04:42 PM
Oh, those pesky Israelis! Surrounded by several hundreds of millions of Arab enemies who would love to see her demise. She seems to just plug right along, regardless of whether her neighbors consider her legitimate or not. Israel has every right to exist. It has proven it over and over again. It has also vouchsafed its' existence with quite a potent military deterent. It's a pretty rough neighborhood, even in the best of times and circumstances.

ONtop888
01-29-2009, 04:48 PM
It's an endless cycle of hate, regardless of who's to blame, they both live there now and neither side will back down until the other submits or is destroyed....it's an enigmatic puzzle, that I'm surely not smart enough to resolve...

Tvols
01-29-2009, 05:00 PM
Ken Garrison


Because of many different beliefs and attitudes regarding, among other things, peace and freedom, the situation in Israel tends to become quite convoluted. Misunderstandings regarding the reasons for the fighting abound, even among followers of the God of Israel. Also involved are the agendas, hidden and otherwise, of many of the key players involved. In its simplest terms, the "conflict" in Israel is being waged by those who are fighting (whether intentionally or not) against the God of Israel, the Creator of the universe. It is a battle, for the most part, between those of faith who believe the promises God made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and those who, for whatever reasons, would prefer that Israel (i.e., the Jews) did not live on the land bordered by the Nile and Euphrates Rivers and the Mediterranean Sea and the wilderness of Jordan. The faithful in Israel are obeying a direct commandment from God ("inhabit the land"). Those, on the other hand, who are fighting against God (whether intentionally or not) are trying to remove the Jewish people from the land given to them by God, especially Judea and Samaria - the very heart of Israel. The basic reason for wanting Jews out of the land of Israel is quite simple when looked at from a spiritual viewpoint. The existence of the Jewish people in the land of Israel, after 2,000 years of dispersion, proves beyond a doubt that the God of Israel does exist and that man will one day have to give an account of his deeds before Him; that man's autonomous reign on this earth is soon coming to an end.

We could look at the historical aspect of the situation and try to determine whether Israel actually has a right to live in the land or if it really does belong to the 'Palestinians'. However, this is exactly what is happening now and the facts become very easily distorted when mingled with bold lies. The question many people ask is "Whose history do we believe, the Israelis or the 'Palestinians'?" Nazi propagandist Joseph Goebbels' statement, "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it people will eventually come to believe it", has certainly come to life in the current situation. The question then becomes whose statements do we believe? For those who worship the God of Israel, there is only one truth: the word of God itself. But what exactly did God say regarding Israel? Does it still hold true today, even after Israel's dispersion from the land 2,000 years ago? Does God want to divide the land of Israel and give a portion of it to the 'Palestinians' ? or anybody else ? besides the Jewish people? The answers, fortunately, are found in the Scriptures ? God's written word.



God's Eternal Covenant with Israel
Approximately 4,000 years ago God made a covenant with Abraham to give him and his descendants the land of Canaan, located "from the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates" (Genesis 15:18). This covenant was later restated to Isaac (Genesis 26.2-5) and to Jacob (Genesis 28.13; 35.12). Eventually, God would make this same covenant with the entire house of Israel, as a nation: "For My angel will go before you and bring you in to the land of the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will completely destroy them?. And I will fix your boundary from the Red Sea to the sea of the Philistines, and from the wilderness to the River Euphrates; for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand, and you will drive them out before you." (Exodus 23.23,31).

God also declared that Israel would be His "own possession among all the peoples". The requirements of Israel for this covenant is to "obey My [God's] voice and keep My covenant" (Exodus 19:5). Because of this, many people mistakenly believe that, because Israel disobeyed God, He removed them from the land permanently. They say that Israel no longer has a valid claim to the land, according to God's word. Some even go so far as to say that God has cast off His people permanently. However, Scripture does not bear this out. In fact, it states just the opposite.

God was very specific regarding what would happen to Israel if they obeyed Him and the resulting punishment if they failed to obey Him ("the blessings and the curses"). The details are given in Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28. The ultimate penalty for continuing to disobey God was removal from the land of promise (Leviticus 26.33). Yet, there was always the promise of restoration: "Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, nor will I so abhor them as to destroy them, breaking My covenant with them; for I am the Lord their God" (Leviticus 26:44; see also Jeremiah 31.35-37; Lamentations 4.22; Micah 7.18-20). God declared that He would never utterly abandon the Jewish people: "'Yet even in those days', declares the Lord, 'I will not make you a complete destruction'" (Jeremiah 5:18; see also Amos 9.8). God, instead, promised that a remnant of Israel would return to the land that He promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Isaiah 11.11-14; 43.5-6; Zephaniah 3.14-20). Notice that God is speaking of Israel ? the Jewish people ? returning to the land, not some other vessel.


Dividing the Land of Israel
So we come back to one of our original questions: "Does God want to divide the land of Israel and give a portion of it to the 'Palestinians' ? or anybody else ? besides the Jewish people?" Aside from the Scriptures listed above there are many more detailing God's promise of the restoration of the Jewish people to the land of Israel. Is it possible, then, that God would want to share the land with other nations? God is very concerned about His land, especially Judea and Samaria. He is also concerned for His holy city Jerusalem. God spoke of the judgment of the nations for doing this very thing: "I will gather all the nations, and bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat. Then I will enter into judgment with them there on behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; and they have divided up My land" (Joel 3:2).

Many individuals and organizations approve of the idea of the creation of a 'Palestinian' state as long as it is not headed by a terrorist organization. Their claim is that the 'Palestinian people' need a place to live also. While we could argue the actual existence of a 'Palestinian people', we need to look back at the Scriptures for the correct Biblical position. God commanded Israel 3,500 years ago to remove the pagan nations from the land of Israel and dwell in it. God has never changed nor lifted this command. Many in Israel are asking that the 'Palestinians' leave peacefully. There are plenty of places for them to go. Whatever they do, it is not Israel's responsibility to provide a place for them to live. Israel's command from God is to remove the enemy from their midst and dwell in the land. Those who wish to live in peace in the midst of Israel are free to do so. God always made a provision for the sojourner.

The issue then of whether to divide Israel or not becomes clear. The land bordered by the Nile and Euphrates Rivers and the Mediterranean Sea and the wilderness of Jordan belongs to God, Who, in turn, gave it to the Jewish people for an eternal possession. It cannot be shared nor given away. God gave Israel a clear command regarding making covenants with their enemies: "and when the Lord your God shall deliver them before you, and you shall defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them" (Deuteronomy 7:2).

The basic answer then to Israel's problem with the 'Palestinians' ? and the nations of the world ? is to trust God not man. Many Christians are asking what they can do to help Israel. As Christians, it is our job to encourage Israel to believe the promises God made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. We must encourage them to return to Israel and build up the land. We must pray and intercede for them to be strong and withstand the pressures of the nations. It is God alone they must fear, not man: "In God I have put my trust, I shall not be afraid. What can man do to me?" (Psalm 56:11). We are the watchmen of Israel. Let us take our job seriously.

"For Zion's sake I will not keep silent, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not keep quiet, until her righteousness goes forth like brightness, and her salvation like a torch that is burning.... On your walls, O Jerusalem, I have appointed watchmen; all day and all night they will never keep silent. You who remind the Lord, take no rest for yourselves; and give Him no rest until He establishes and makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth." (Isaiah 62:1,6-7).


Hope this helps

Halos2thorns
01-29-2009, 05:06 PM
I see where that can help from a strictly biblical perspective.

However just because "God" over 1,500 years ago said they can have it doesn't give them a realistic reason.

1_COR_16.13_old
01-29-2009, 05:09 PM
I see where that can help from a strictly biblical perspective.

However just because "God" over 1,500 years ago said they can have it doesn't give them a realistic reason.

Yes it does. I mean to those that God means all, what God says goes.

Reps to you anyway bro on recharge for 2 reasons. 1 Because of this interesting thread and 2 because you have a Vitali Klitschko quote!!!

Halos2thorns
01-29-2009, 05:17 PM
Yes it does. I mean to those that God means all, what God says goes.

Reps to you anyway bro on recharge for 2 reasons. 1 Because of this interesting thread and 2 because you have a Vitali Klitschko quote!!!

I agree but certainly in this day and age it is wrong to base your political actions off of God.

YES I understand most Arab nations do this, but this is about Israel

stateless
01-29-2009, 05:21 PM
I see where that can help from a strictly biblical perspective.

However just because "God" over 1,500 years ago said they can have it doesn't give them a realistic reason.

Reply to xXBoStErXx's message. It will help me to better understand your thinking.

Halos2thorns
01-29-2009, 05:39 PM
The "inhabitants" weren't the first inhabitants.
The "Native Americans" were ousted by the Europeans when they got here. You cannot say that Israel shouldn't exist based on that platform. Us as Americans have no "manifest destiny" to this land. Our ancestors conquered it, and we benefit from the spoils of war.

Israel didn't take anything. It was given.
If you were getting bombed, you'd fight back too.

Collateral damage is a part of war. Deal with it.

I did overlook the fact on how Native American's were here before us and will say what the "European Settlers" did was a unspeakable thing, and I think Manifest Destiny is ridiculous. That being said I will say it was 150+ years ago that most of this happened and America's thinking has changed (I know this will hit some nerves). Also America has tried to somewhat make up for what it has done, Native Americans do have reserves and are offered numerous scholarships etc. however i'm sure more could be done.

It was somewhat given to Israel, I never denied that. I blame the Allied forces just as much.

Yes I would fight back, who wouldn't. However the fact is they slaughter civilians and brush it off like a mere little thing. Collateral damage is a part of war, far to known on the American side to but that doesn't make it right. At least American's protest and few now agree with the war, Israelis support every second of what they do.


Also lets not forget that the actual Israeli people do nothing to prevent this and often encourage conflict. Israeli's are slowly taking over predominantly Palestinian land by making Settlements slowly creeping in, asking for conflict. ALL knowing that this will only slowly destroy the Palestinians. EVEN when the actual Israeli government steps in to intervene they riot and refuse to leave.

(yes sixty minutes^^^)