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kethnaab
01-01-2009, 11:08 PM
The candidates, and my arguments for and against each of them. Remember, this IS NOT the MVP, this is simply "which QB played best under the circumstances"

Drew Brees
Became only the 2nd QB in NFL history to post 5k yards in a season, and he did it with a mishmash of targets. Dan had the Mark's Brothers, Warner (ca. Rams) had Holt and Bruce (and Faulk) and Fitz/Boldin/Breaston this year, Manning in 04 had Wayne/Harrison/Stokley as well as Clark and Edge. Warren Moon had several outstanding possession receivers in that insane run-n-shoot offense. Dan Fouts had the best receiving TE and 2 stud deep threat WRs.
Who did Brees have this year?
1) His primary WR (Marques Colston), TE (Jeremy Shockey), and RB (Reggie Bush) all missed approximately half the season
2) His 1st, 2nd and 3rd string RBs (Bush, Deuce and Stecker) were injured a total of 20 games between them
3) His leading WR was Lance Moore, an undrafted 175-lb munchkin from Toledo University. His 2nd was Devery Henderson, an underperforming munchkin who has yet to break 32 receptions in a season. His 3rd was Billy Miller, a 31-year old journeyman on his 4th team who was about 10 picks away from being "Mr. Irrelevant" from 1999 (218th chosen in the 7th round).
Who the hell knew these peeps even existed, aside from their mothers and bizarre freaks like me?
-Led the NFL in at least 6 different QB categories including yards, TD passes and net yards/attempt (Despite having the most attempts) and he also led his team to the highest scoring offensive attack. He had 10 games > 300 yards, 2 > 400, and 11 games with multiple TD passes, including 16 in the last 6 when NO was fighting for a playoff spot. Posted an outstanding 96.2 passer rating against defenses who knew he was going to pass.
His team finished 8-8. No, he doesn't play defense, but in 5 of those losses, he had 2 or 3 picks thrown. Of course, he also lost a game where he completed 81% of his passes for > 400 yards and threw 0 picks as well as losing another game where he threw 4 TDs and 386 yards against a 12-4 playoff-bound team but the naysayers will state outright that he didn't lead his team to the playoffs, so he is to blame, reality bedamned. He also threw 17 picks, 3rd most in the NFL. despite this, his interception %age wasn't bad at all, and he still threw 2x as many TDs as picks

Philip Rivers
In a watershed year where, for the first time in a decade, Ladainian Tomlinson was NOT reliable, Rivers proved that he was more than capable of shouldering the load. He tied with Brees for the NFL lead in TD passes with 34, yet threw only 11 picks, a 3:1 ratio, tops in the NFL among QBs that actually threw the ball. He topped 4k yards and led the NFL in yards per attempt and passer rating as well as tying with Drew Brees in net yards/attempt. He also led in TD %age. He had 12 multi-TD games this season while only posting 3 multi-pick games (and 8 interception-free games). He topped 300 yards 5 times and had a passer rating > 100 on 10 occasions, including a 141 in the game that got his team into the playoffs.
Okay, let's take a look at the teams in his conference that he played nearly half his games against. KC is laughable on both sides of the ball, Oakland's defense is terrible, and Denver was recruiting LBs from the local junior high schools as well as trying to figure out how Champ Bailey got so bad, so quickly. He looked like hell in against the only truly tough defense he faced (Pittsburgh) and was outplayed in a head-to-head game against Drew Brees in which his team lost.

Kurt Warner
Top 3 in just about every meaningful passing statistic, including completions, attempts, completion %age, TD passes, yards, and passer rating. His team's rushing attack was beyond weak and ranked last in the NFL in attempts and yards and 31st in yards/attempt. Posted 7 games > 300 yards including a 472-yard performance early in the season and posted a perfect game (passer rating = 158.3) against a playoff team, the Dolphins, where he passed for 361 yards and 3 TDs. 10 multi-TD games, 15 out of 16 games he threw for a TD, and was only under 200 yards passing 3 times the entire season (2 of those were 197 and 192). Only had 2 multi-pick games during the season compared to 6 games where he threw no picks. Much was made of how poorly he played down the stretch, but 1 game was in a blizzard, and his "average" games against the Vikings, Giants and Eagles, were games against 3 of the best defenses in the NFL, and he threw 270/235/351 yards against each of them, despite each of those defenses knowing he would be throwing. Posted 732 yards passing, 3 TDs, 2 picks in losses against NYG and Carolina
He sucks in bad weather, and went completely tits-up against New England. It was as though his whole team said "fuggit, it's snowing, let's go home". QB has to be the leader, he can't be whining about getting snow in his pussy. He also spent 6 games playing against 3 of the worst teams in the NFL, St. Louis, Seattle and SF who gave up 465, 392 and 381 points during the season. Besides, if I have Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitz and Steve Breaston to throw to, I GOTTA create SOME kinda offense, right?

Peyton Manning
Led the Colts on a 9-game winning streak that included divisional games against the Jags, Texans and Titans as well as a solid 3-TD performance vs. the Steelers. "Only" threw for 4002 yards and 27 TDs, but most people would be happy with a 4000-yard, 27-TD, 12-pick season that included 12 wins. Started off pretty bad, but turned it on against the best defenses, such as Pittsburgh and the Ravens. Threw 7 TD passes and 959 yards in the 3 games leading up to the Colts' clinching of a playoff spot and led comeback victories on 5 separate occasions
His poor play, including 4 multi-pick games in the first 7 weeks put Indy in a poor situation to begin with. Indianapolis underachieved and barely beat teams throughout the season, including the pitiful Cleveland Browns and multiple intra-divisional games and much of this was due to Manning's very poor play early in the season. Indy has an excellent set of WRs as well as one of the best pass-catching TEs in the game, and still barely pulled off victories against far inferior teams.

wsuwarrior
01-01-2009, 11:16 PM
Red text burns teh retinas. I voted for other, Aaron Rodgers.

leafs43
01-01-2009, 11:18 PM
I say Brees.

Worked half the season without Colston and Bush got hurt again.

He put up those numbers on basically a crap team.

Kovalchuk
01-02-2009, 05:03 AM
I would say Kurt Warner in a landslide.

Up until his team clinched a playoff spot... there was no argument for any of these other guys.

JRRBadBoy4Life
01-02-2009, 05:10 AM
^^Kurt Warner has the best recievers out of all of those QB's. Besides, if the Pathetic NFC West wasn't so pathetic, the Cards wouldn't have made the playoffs. I've got to go with Brees.

ray mercer
01-02-2009, 05:56 AM
The original thread starter seems to be bias towards Brees. Manning started oiff poor but I'll toss out the first 7 games due to inactivity and missing pre season. If we look at the last half of the season it's Manning. They beat Pittsbursh in Pittsburgh which is a huge victory. They also beat the Chargers in SD which is damn tough to do.

JuicintheJuice
01-02-2009, 06:28 AM
other- chad pennington

Cramerica
01-02-2009, 06:30 AM
I suppose part of the argument for Manning would be his injury recovery at the first part of the year (I think this is the first time he didn't take part in a pre-season game) as well as his O-line being hurt and his running game being left at the airport.

His come from behind wins this year combined with the close but important string of wins put together midway through the end of the season is what made his run so impressive.

However, I vote Brees.

kethnaab
01-02-2009, 06:35 AM
The original thread starter seems to be bias towards Brees.

very. I think he's QB of the Year. :D


Manning started oiff poor but I'll toss out the first 7 games due to inactivity and missing pre season.

uh....so you'll conveniently ignore half the season??? :eek:


other- chad pennington

pretty reasonable, considering how solid and efficient he was.

Mistermidas
01-02-2009, 06:36 AM
If Drew Brees would have been able to get his team to the playoffs, I'd have easily picked him. As well as him for MVP too. BUT....since that didnt happen, Ima have to go with Peyton. Considering they started off so ****ty and are now 12-4, and probably the hottest team in the league going into the playoffs.

Cramerica
01-02-2009, 06:40 AM
If Drew Brees would have been able to get his team to the playoffs, I'd have easily picked him. As well as him for MVP too. BUT....since that didnt happen, Ima have to go with Peyton. Considering they started off so ****ty and are now 12-4, and probably the hottest team in the league going into the playoffs.

I think what the Colts have been able to do to finish the season has been great and I agree with you that they are hot right now, but many of their wins were fairly close and they still struggled to get out with a W. If it weren't for Manning carrying the team on his shoulders, it wouldn't have happened.

I think they are just too weak right now to make it too far in the postseason. But who knows, they had some great wins too.

kethnaab
01-02-2009, 06:45 AM
If Drew Brees would have been able to get his team to the playoffs, I'd have easily picked him. As well as him for MVP too. BUT....since that didnt happen, Ima have to go with Peyton. Considering they started off so ****ty and are now 12-4, and probably the hottest team in the league going into the playoffs.

So....can someone explain this logic to me please? The Saints scored more points than any team in the NFL, and had 54 TDs (SD was 2nd with 47)

So, how the hell can Brees do more than produce more yards, more points, and more TDs than any other team in the NFL? All Brees did was lead his team of 2nd and 3rd stringers to 90 points more than the Colts.

However, because they played in the toughest division in the NFL, Brees can't buy a break. They went 8-8. That gets you into the playoffs in some divisions, yet 11-5 gets you a seat on a sofa in other divisions.

I just cannot understand this mentality.

cthebeast
01-02-2009, 07:06 AM
other- chad pennington

x2.

Clide Whit
01-02-2009, 09:18 AM
635 pass attempts and only 13 sacks

Brees is either a God or his O Line doesn't get enough credit.

kethnaab
01-02-2009, 09:17 PM
635 pass attempts and only 13 sacks

Brees is either a God or his O Line doesn't get enough credit.

His O-line gets credit, but Brees is grossly underrated with his release, his ability to read defenses and his ability to hit those quick outs and slants, hence Lance Moore's success

johnny87
01-02-2009, 09:19 PM
So....can someone explain this logic to me please? The Saints scored more points than any team in the NFL, and had 54 TDs (SD was 2nd with 47)

So, how the hell can Brees do more than produce more yards, more points, and more TDs than any other team in the NFL? All Brees did was lead his team of 2nd and 3rd stringers to 90 points more than the Colts.

However, because they played in the toughest division in the NFL, Brees can't buy a break. They went 8-8. That gets you into the playoffs in some divisions, yet 11-5 gets you a seat on a sofa in other divisions.

I just cannot understand this mentality.

a last place finish is still a last place finish.

NoS_oUtLaSt
01-02-2009, 09:22 PM
Looking at this makes me think how big of a down year it was for the QBs.

Sick96stang
01-02-2009, 09:26 PM
So....can someone explain this logic to me please? The Saints scored more points than any team in the NFL, and had 54 TDs (SD was 2nd with 47)

So, how the hell can Brees do more than produce more yards, more points, and more TDs than any other team in the NFL? All Brees did was lead his team of 2nd and 3rd stringers to 90 points more than the Colts.

However, because they played in the toughest division in the NFL, Brees can't buy a break. They went 8-8. That gets you into the playoffs in some divisions, yet 11-5 gets you a seat on a sofa in other divisions.

I just cannot understand this mentality.

I'm with ya I cant understand why Brees wasn't a shoe in for the MVP this year. People seem to put way to much emphasis on getting into the playoffs but not enough emphasis on looking at things other than teams records.

NoS_oUtLaSt
01-02-2009, 09:28 PM
I'm with ya I cant understand why Brees wasn't a shoe in for the MVP this year. People seem to put way to much emphasis on getting into the playoffs but not enough emphasis on looking at things other than teams records.

So you agree the MVP should be Michael Turner? :)

He caried his team.

joeflex73
01-02-2009, 10:11 PM
Coming up 15 yards short of the NFL passing record, for me, definitely its Brees.

I do think Manning though was the right choice as MVP.

kethnaab
01-03-2009, 12:25 AM
a last place finish is still a last place finish.

which part of "he doesn't play defense AND offense" are you not understanding? They finished 8-8 in the best division in the NFL and beat multiple playoff teams

#1 offense in yards produced
#1 offense in TDs produced
#1 offense in scoring

what more do people want from the ****ing guy? I swear people have their heads so far up their asses it's ridiculous.


Looking at this makes me think how big of a down year it was for the QBs.

not really. Not sure why you'd think that. Only a difference of about 3 YPG per team (211.3 vs. 214.5)


So you agree the MVP should be Michael Turner? :)

He caried his team.

I love Turner, but Roddy White finished with 1400 yards receiving, so one might be led to believe that, although Burner whupped ass, he had a bit of help on offense

No one in the NFL carried his or her team more than Brees.

Period.

and no, it's not close.

NoS_oUtLaSt
01-03-2009, 12:35 AM
not really. Not sure why you'd think that. Only a difference of about 3 YPG per team (211.3 vs. 214.5)



I love Turner, but Roddy White finished with 1400 yards receiving, so one might be led to believe that, although Burner whupped ass, he had a bit of help on offense

No one in the NFL carried his or her team more than Brees.

Period.

and no, it's not close.

Not like that I mean like No big numbers from the common names like brady, palmer, rothlisburger etc. It seems like no QB really was dominant throughout the entire year like Brady and Manning were the previous years.


As for Turner. He ran the ball 23.5 times per game(tops in the NFL) and helped make a rookie QB look like the next big thing in pro football and did it all with a team that wasn't supposed to win more than 5 games. And while you say Brees had some of his players injured during the season Turner lost his starting tackle during the middle of the year as well.

Sick96stang
01-03-2009, 12:36 AM
So you agree the MVP should be Michael Turner? :)

He caried his team.

Ummm...

Matt Ryan did a lot more for the Falcons, than the 3 Saints running back did for the Saints. To say Turner did as much for the Falcons as Brees did for the Saints is ridiculous and that's being generous.

johnny87
01-03-2009, 12:40 AM
which part of "he doesn't play defense AND offense" are you not understanding? They finished 8-8 in the best division in the NFL and beat multiple playoff teams

#1 offense in yards produced
#1 offense in TDs produced
#1 offense in scoring

what more do people want from the ****ing guy? I swear people have their heads so far up their asses it's ridiculous.



not really. Not sure why you'd think that. Only a difference of about 3 YPG per team (211.3 vs. 214.5)



I love Turner, but Roddy White finished with 1400 yards receiving, so one might be led to believe that, although Burner whupped ass, he had a bit of help on offense

No one in the NFL carried his or her team more than Brees.

Period.

and no, it's not close.

you seem to give a ton of credit for Brees finishing LAST in the nfc south. but no credit to dwill and turner for actually finishing up at the top of the conference.

and the falcs actually gave up 8 more YPG then the Saints. so dont act like the falcs had a great d either.

NoS_oUtLaSt
01-03-2009, 12:41 AM
Ummm...

Matt Ryan did a lot more for the Falcons, than the 3 Saints running back did for the Saints. To say Turner did as much for the Falcons as Brees did for the Saints is ridiculous and that's being generous.

He led the league in rush attempts. He was 2nd in the league in rushing. He did it with the same offensive line(Minus Sam Baker who was hurt half the year) that only let Dunn rush for 700ish yards.

I am not saying what Brees did wasn't amazing but he did it on a much better team(offensively) than what Turner had. Lets not forget Bush was leading the league in TDs preinjury

Sick96stang
01-03-2009, 12:44 AM
you seem to give a ton of credit for Brees finishing LAST in the nfc south. but no credit to dwill and turner for actually finishing up at the top of the conference.

and the falcs actually gave up 8 more YPG then the Saints. so dont act like the falcs had a great d either.

What is up with your inability to see past division standings? You seem completely incapable of doing that. Every one of your posts always just talks about where their teams were in division standings. Find me 1 person who had less to work with than Brees on offense that put up #'s even close to Brees. Turner certainly doesn't qualify seeing as how he ranked second in running yet Brees ranked #1 in passing and the Falcons passing game ranked 14th while the Saints running game ranked 28th.

NoS_oUtLaSt
01-03-2009, 12:44 AM
you seem to give a ton of credit for Brees finishing LAST in the nfc south. but no credit to dwill and turner for actually finishing up at the top of the conference.

and the falcs actually gave up 8 more YPG then the Saints. so dont act like the falcs had a great d either.

x2. I actually wouldn't have minded seeing D-Will get it either(MVP) now that you brought his name up.

Sick96stang
01-03-2009, 12:45 AM
He led the league in rush attempts. He was 2nd in the league in rushing. He did it with the same offensive line(Minus Sam Baker who was hurt half the year) that only let Dunn rush for 700ish yards.

I am not saying what Brees did wasn't amazing but he did it on a much better team(offensively) than what Turner had. Lets not forget Bush was leading the league in TDs preinjury

Really he did?

Saints #1 Passing
Saints #28 rushing

Falcons #14 passing
Falcons #2 rushing

You're telling me Turner did what he did with less offensive talent than what Brees had?

NoS_oUtLaSt
01-03-2009, 12:47 AM
What is up with your inability to see past division standings? You seem completely incapable of doing that. Every one of your posts always just talks about where their teams were in division standings. Find me 1 person who had less to work with than Brees on offense that put up #'s even close to Brees. Turner certainly doesn't qualify seeing as how he ranked second in running yet Brees ranked #1 in passing and the Falcons passing game ranked 14th while the Saints running game ranked 28th.

Falcons were playing with the lead most of the game. Not to mention Turner was opening up the pass for Matt Ryan.

While the Saints playing from behind had to pass to catch up most of the time.

It is kinda chicken or the egg like. I just think that a guy who gets the most touches in the NFL and carrys a team that was supposed to only have 5 wins at most is a lot more impressive.

johnny87
01-03-2009, 12:49 AM
What is up with your inability to see past division standings? You seem completely incapable of doing that. Every one of your posts always just talks about where their teams were in division standings. Find me 1 person who had less to work with than Brees on offense that put up #'s even close to Brees. Turner certainly doesn't qualify seeing as how he ranked second in running yet Brees ranked #1 in passing and the Falcons passing game ranked 14th while the Saints running game ranked 28th.

if YOU read this thread, you would see kethnaab keeps bringing up Brees's saints 8-8 record in the "toughest division in the league" as one of his arguements for Brees. So its only fair when I respond how the other two players teams had far more success in the same division.

Sick96stang
01-03-2009, 12:49 AM
Falcons were playing with the lead most of the game. Not to mention Turner was opening up the pass for Matt Ryan.

While the Saints playing from behind had to pass to catch up most of the time.

It is kinda chicken or the egg like. I just think that a guy who gets the most touches in the NFL and carrys a team that was supposed to only have 5 wins at most is a lot more impressive.

Ok well if they were playing with the lead most of the time that would give Turner more runs since you tend to run the ball more when you are winning. Turner only had 1 more TD than Ryan did.

NoS_oUtLaSt
01-03-2009, 12:50 AM
Really he did?

Saints #1 Passing
Saints #28 rushing

Falcons #14 passing
Falcons #2 rushing

You're telling me Turner did what he did with less offensive talent than what Brees had?

Ryan < Brees
Turner > Bush
Norwood = Thomas/Deuce
Roddy = Colston
Jenkins =< Lance Moore(can't tell with his first year)
Pelle < Shockey
Falcons Line < Saints Line

And yes. those numbers are only that way because of Turner. he helped open of the Falcons passing attack.

Sick96stang
01-03-2009, 12:51 AM
if YOU read this thread, kethnaab keeps bringing up Brees's saints 8-8 record in the "toughest division in the league" as one of his arguements for Brees. So its only fair when I respond how the other two players teams had far more success in the same division.

They both played in the same division so we can equal that out. A team record is clearly more than an individual effort but if you want to judge who did more for their team I can't see any statistic that would show Turner did more for the Falcons than Brees did for the Saints... yet Falcons ended up with a better record which tells you that clearly the Falcons overall were the better team but Brees did more for his team.

NoS_oUtLaSt
01-03-2009, 12:52 AM
Ok well if they were playing with the lead most of the time that would give Turner more runs since you tend to run the ball more when you are winning. Turner only had 1 more TD than Ryan did.

Yeah most of the time when you are running more teams stack the box. Making it impressive.

this could really go back and forth all day.

Sick96stang
01-03-2009, 12:55 AM
Ryan < Brees
Turner > Bush
Norwood = Thomas/Deuce
Roddy = Colston
Jenkins =< Lance Moore(can't tell with his first year)
Pelle < Shockey
Falcons Line < Saints Line

And yes. those numbers are only that way because of Turner. he helped open of the Falcons passing attack.

Roddy = Colston... are you serious?

Roddy: 1382 yards 7 TD's
Colston: 760 yards 5 TD's

I fail to see how that is equal.

So basically the Falcons had a balanced attack where as Brees had to throw into heavy coverage always with his second and third string WR's for half the season since the Saints had no running game.

NoS_oUtLaSt
01-03-2009, 12:58 AM
Roddy = Colston... are you serious?

Roddy: 1382 yards 7 TD's
Colston: 760 yards 5 TD's

I fail to see how that is equal.

So basically the Falcons had a balanced attack where as Brees had to throw into heavy coverage always with his second and third string WR's for half the season since the Saints had no running game.

Really dude. How about compare it a year when colston is healthy. he had back to back 1,000 yard seasons. When Healthy he is equal to Roddy.






And the reason the Falcons had a balanced attack... MICHAEL TURNER opening up the passing game.

Sick96stang
01-03-2009, 12:59 AM
Yeah most of the time when you are running more teams stack the box. Making it impressive.

this could really go back and forth all day.

Falcons passing attempts: 434 44%
Falcons rushing attempts: 560 56%

Falcons weren't running the ball enough for teams to be able to stack the box

Saints passing attempts: 636 62%
Saints rushing attempts: 398 38%

As you can see Saints were a lot more one sided therefore defenses knew this as well so more defenses were playing heavier pass coverage against the Saints than teams were playing heaveir run defense against the Falcons.

jlick
01-03-2009, 01:01 AM
Really dude. How about compare it a year when colston is healthy. he had back to back 1,000 yard seasons. When Healthy he is equal to Roddy.






And the reason the Falcons had a balanced attack... MICHAEL TURNER opening up the passing game.
I thought every one knew colston is better then roddy :P

NoS_oUtLaSt
01-03-2009, 01:02 AM
Falcons passing attempts: 434 44%
Falcons rushing attempts: 560 56%

Falcons weren't running the ball enough for teams to be able to stack the box

Saints passing attempts: 636 62%
Saints rushing attempts: 398 38%

As you can see Saints were a lot more one sided therefore defenses knew this as well so more defenses were playing heavier pass coverage against the Saints than teams were playing heaveir run defense against the Falcons.

Yeah because the Falcons had a better team to keep runnning the ball late in the game. While Brees was throwing againist prevent defenses near the end of the game.

And to honestly think teams weren't playing heavy run defense againist the Falcons is crazy.

johnny87
01-03-2009, 01:03 AM
Falcons passing attempts: 434 44%
Falcons rushing attempts: 560 56%

Falcons weren't running the ball enough for teams to be able to stack the box

Saints passing attempts: 636 62%
Saints rushing attempts: 398 38%

As you can see Saints were a lot more one sided therefore defenses knew this as well so more defenses were playing heavier pass coverage against the Saints than teams were playing heaveir run defense against the Falcons.

Falcs were in the bottom 4 in the league in pass attempts. plus i watched nearly every falcs game and teams did crowd the box all game lol.

Sick96stang
01-03-2009, 01:04 AM
Really dude. How about compare it a year when colston is healthy. he had back to back 1,000 yard seasons. When Healthy he is equal to Roddy.






And the reason the Falcons had a balanced attack... MICHAEL TURNER opening up the passing game.

LOL if you really think the only reason they had a balanced attack is because Turner opened up the passing game you are living on fantasy island. If the Falcons running game was that dominant they shouldn't have even needed to pass the ball as much as they did because they should have just been able to run all over teams. Brees was able to pass all over teams despite having no running game.

NoS_oUtLaSt
01-03-2009, 01:05 AM
Falcs were in the bottom 4 in the league in pass attempts. plus i watched nearly every falcs game and teams did crowd the box all game lol.

Its obvious he didn't watch many Falcs games.

NoS_oUtLaSt
01-03-2009, 01:06 AM
LOL if you really think the only reason they had a balanced attack is because Turner opened up the passing game you are living on fantasy island. If the Falcons running game was that dominant they shouldn't have even needed to pass the ball as much as they did because they should have just been able to run all over teams. Brees was able to pass all over teams despite having no running game.

You must have never watched a Falcons game all year. They were in the bottom 4 for pass attempts this year. but yet we shouldn't have even had to pass it that much??? whatever dude.

Sick96stang
01-03-2009, 01:08 AM
Yeah because the Falcons had a better team to keep runnning the ball late in the game. While Brees was throwing againist prevent defenses near the end of the game.

And to honestly think teams weren't playing heavy run defense againist the Falcons is crazy.

The argument is ridiculous to say Turner did as much for the Falcons as Brees did for the Saints. Since you want to try and come up with every ridiculous reason you can possible think of let me put it in black and white terms for you how much they contributed to their team

Brees: 5069 yards 34 TD's
Turner: 1699 yards 17 TD's

So Brees contribued 3370 yards more yards to his teams offense than Turner did to his and put up 102 more points for his team than Turner did for his.

NoS_oUtLaSt
01-03-2009, 01:10 AM
The argument is ridiculous to say Turner did as much for the Falcons as Brees did for the Saints. Since you want to try and come up with every ridiculous reason you can possible think of let me put it in black and white terms for you how much they contributed to their team

Brees: 5069 yards 34 TD's
Turner: 1699 yards 17 TD's

So Brees contribued 3370 yards more yards to his teams offense than Turner did to his and put up 102 more points for his team than Turner did for his.

Haha wow.... Now minus every bit of YAC Brees got from Colston/Bush/Lance Moore etc....

That is not plain black white. Michael turner held the ball the whole time.

And my reasoning is rediculous...

Sick96stang
01-03-2009, 01:11 AM
Falcs were in the bottom 4 in the league in pass attempts. plus i watched nearly every falcs game and teams did crowd the box all game lol.

Yea but yet ranked 14th overall so they had an extremely effective passing game and don't give me all this crap about Turner completely opened up the passing game for Ryan. If that was the case I guess you would say that Ryan would be garbage without Turner.

Sick96stang
01-03-2009, 01:12 AM
Haha wow.... Now minus every bit of YAC Brees got from Colston/Bush/Lance Moore etc....

That is not plain black white. Michael turner held the ball the whole time.

And my reasoning is rediculous...

You really think that the Saints receivers went for over 3000 YAC? LOL! and you also think those YAC attributed for over 100 points?

Like said your reasoning is ridiculous.

NoS_oUtLaSt
01-03-2009, 01:13 AM
You really think that the Saints receivers went for over 3000 YAC? LOL!

Yeah your right. By your logic Shaun Hill should get MVP over Adrian peterson. Makes perfect sense.

Sick96stang
01-03-2009, 01:14 AM
Yeah your right. By your logic Shaun Hill should get MVP over Adrian peterson. Makes perfect sense.

By your logic Matt Ryan is a garbage QB who would be horrible without Turner.

johnny87
01-03-2009, 01:16 AM
Yea but yet ranked 14th overall so they had an extremely effective passing game and don't give me all this crap about Turner completely opened up the passing game for Ryan. If that was the case I guess you would say that Ryan would be garbage without Turner.

i dont see how that is "crap". when teams are stacking the line, its going to be easier to pass. seems pretty simple to me.

NoS_oUtLaSt
01-03-2009, 01:16 AM
By your logic Matt Ryan is a garbage QB who would be horrible without Turner.

Nope put him on the Saints and he would get all the junk time yards Brees got.

Sick96stang
01-03-2009, 01:19 AM
i dont see how that is "crap". when teams are stacking the line, its going to be easier to pass. seems pretty simple to me.

So somehow Brees passes the ball more than Turner runs the ball yet me saying teams played pass coverage means nothing but teams stacking the box against Turner does mean something. The fact that Turner had a decent passing game on his team means nothing and Brees having a horrible running game somehow just falls off the argument. This is very simple and in no way can anybody say Turner had less going offensive for him than Bress had going for him. You think I'm wrong go make a poll about it and see what the majority think.

Sick96stang
01-03-2009, 01:20 AM
Nope put him on the Saints and he would get all the junk time yards Brees got.

LOL now I've heard it all. So according to you, you can put any QB on the Saints team this year and they would have matched what Brees did.

NoS_oUtLaSt
01-03-2009, 01:22 AM
LOL now I've heard it all. So according to you, you can put any QB on the Saints team this year and they would have matched what Brees did.

No. But he wouldn't be junk either.


Seriously though. Tell me how Shaun Hill > AP.

I mean its Black and White. Look at how many more yards he got.

Worst arguement ever.

Sick96stang
01-03-2009, 01:24 AM
No. But he wouldn't be junk either.


Seriously though. Tell me how Shaun Hill > AP.

I mean its Black and White. Look at how many more yards he got.

Worst arguement ever.

Seriously though. Tell me how Colston = Roddy White this year... we're talking about this year how their rosters compared to each other not overall.

NoS_oUtLaSt
01-03-2009, 01:26 AM
Seriously though. Tell me how Colston = Roddy White this year... we're talking about this year how their rosters compared to each other not overall.

Well was talking about overall. So yeah Roddy White owned Colston this year. Hell Seneca Wallace owned Tom Brady this year. I'm sorry I got confused on overall vs this year.


But seriously. You would chose Shaun Hill over AP. Thats a bold strategy.

Sick96stang
01-03-2009, 01:34 AM
Well was talking about overall. So yeah Roddy White owned Colston this year. Hell Seneca Wallace owned Tom Brady this year. I'm sorry I got confused on overall vs this year.


But seriously. You would chose Shaun Hill over AP. Thats a bold strategy.

No I wouldn't take Shaun Hill over AP but it makes about as much sense as saying Turner completely opened up the passing game for Ryan. It also makes about as much sense as saying Turner had less to work with than Brees did on offense seeing as how Brees #1 and #2 rusher were out for part of the season and his TE and #1 receiver were out for part of the year. How many starting o-line men/full backs were out for Turner throughout the year?

johnny87
01-03-2009, 01:36 AM
So somehow Brees passes the ball more than Turner runs the ball yet me saying teams played pass coverage means nothing but teams stacking the box against Turner does mean something. ].

Pierre Thomas averaged nearly 5 yards a carry. so im going to have to say that it did open things up quite a bit for him. and before thomas got playing time, they had Bush who was leading the league in TD's pre injury i believe.

so its not like brees wasnt getting production out of the RB spot. Bush just isnt a typical running back. And when they put a more typical rusher in, he got nearly 5 yards an attempt.

Sick96stang
01-03-2009, 01:40 AM
Pierre Thomas averaged nearly 5 yards a carry. so im going to have to say that it did open things up quite a bit for him. and before thomas got playing time, they had Bush who was leading the league in TD's pre injury i believe.

so its not like brees wasnt getting production out of the RB spot. Bush just isnt a typical running back. And when they put a more typical rusher in, he got nearly 5 yards an attempt.

So despite Brees opening up the running game for the Saints more so than Turner opening up the passing game for the Falcons the Saints running game was still much less effective then the Falcons passing game and yet somehow you are arguing that Turner had less offensive talent around him than Brees did.

Yea he was getting the production of the 28th ranked rushing attack in the league... not much of a help if you ask me.

kethnaab
01-03-2009, 01:55 AM
you seem to give a ton of credit for Brees finishing LAST in the nfc south. but no credit to dwill and turner for actually finishing up at the top of the conference.

This is QB of the Year, so I don't see how Turner and DAW have anything to do with this. those 2 studs would DEFINITELY be in my top 3 RBs of the Year, but...this is QB of the year. They don't cut the mustard. Not enough completions. :)


and the falcs actually gave up 8 more YPG then the Saints. so dont act like the falcs had a great d either.

8 more YPG and 70 LESS points, which is why the Saints finished out of the playoff picture.


if YOU read this thread, you would see kethnaab keeps bringing up Brees's saints 8-8 record in the "toughest division in the league" as one of his arguements for Brees. So its only fair when I respond how the other two players teams had far more success in the same division.

and if you can tell me how the performances of 2 RBs bear relevance to the QB of the Year, I'm all ears.

johnny87
01-03-2009, 02:10 AM
This is QB of the Year, so I don't see how Turner and DAW have anything to do with this. those 2 studs would DEFINITELY be in my top 3 RBs of the Year, but...this is QB of the year. They don't cut the mustard. Not enough completions. :)



8 more YPG and 70 LESS points, which is why the Saints finished out of the playoff picture.



and if you can tell me how the performances of 2 RBs bear relevance to the QB of the Year, I'm all ears.

1. You mentioned Turner in this thread before i did.

2. the points can be influenced by a variety of things. Such as your QB being 3rd in the league in picks and puttin u in ****ty situations.

kethnaab
01-03-2009, 02:20 AM
Peyton Manning passed for 4000 yards this year. That's something QBs have done 74 other times in NFL history. Luminaries such as Brad Johnson, Trent Green (on multiple occasions), Jon Kitna (on multiple occasions), Marc Bulger, hell even Scott Mitchell and Steve Beuerlein (and Lynn Dickey and Bill Kenney and Don Majkowski) have done it.

74 times it's been done.

HE also passed for 27 TDs this season. Aaron Brooks did that once. Jake Plummer did it. Hell, Frankie Albert did it in 1949 in a 12-game season. The great Jeff Blake threw 28 TD passes in a season as well. 27 TD passes is nice, but not particularly special.

It's happened over 100 times in the NFL. Not exactly select company.

5 teams in the NFL had a 12-4 record or better this season. 4 did it last year, 5 the year before that. In fact, 4-6 teams each year post 12-4 records, since the NFL changed over in 1978 (that's about 120-180 times, for those keeping track)

18 times a RB in the NFL has gone over 1800 yards rushing. 20 times, a RB has broken 20 TDs, including Terry Allen, Joe Morris, and Chuck Foreman. 75 times in NFL history a player has posted > 1900 YFS.

5 different RBs have run for > 2000 yards in a season, and 3 of them went over 2050.

Twice in NFL history a QB has thrown for 5000 yards in a season.

Twice.

Drew Brees is in elite company. It'd be nice if people would at least give the dude some credit, especially considering he did it with a bunch of nobody's on his team.

Kovalchuk
01-03-2009, 05:17 AM
. The great Jeff Blake threw 28 TD passes in a season as well. 27 TD passes is nice, but not particularly special.



Hey man leave Jeff out of this!!!

I still wear my Blake jersey all the time.... Blake to Pickens was unstoppable!!!

NoS_oUtLaSt
01-03-2009, 10:46 AM
Peyton Manning passed for 4000 yards this year. That's something QBs have done 74 other times in NFL history. Luminaries such as Brad Johnson, Trent Green (on multiple occasions), Jon Kitna (on multiple occasions), Marc Bulger, hell even Scott Mitchell and Steve Beuerlein (and Lynn Dickey and Bill Kenney and Don Majkowski) have done it.

74 times it's been done.

HE also passed for 27 TDs this season. Aaron Brooks did that once. Jake Plummer did it. Hell, Frankie Albert did it in 1949 in a 12-game season. The great Jeff Blake threw 28 TD passes in a season as well. 27 TD passes is nice, but not particularly special.

It's happened over 100 times in the NFL. Not exactly select company.

5 teams in the NFL had a 12-4 record or better this season. 4 did it last year, 5 the year before that. In fact, 4-6 teams each year post 12-4 records, since the NFL changed over in 1978 (that's about 120-180 times, for those keeping track)

18 times a RB in the NFL has gone over 1800 yards rushing. 20 times, a RB has broken 20 TDs, including Terry Allen, Joe Morris, and Chuck Foreman. 75 times in NFL history a player has posted > 1900 YFS.

5 different RBs have run for > 2000 yards in a season, and 3 of them went over 2050.

Twice in NFL history a QB has thrown for 5000 yards in a season.

Twice.

Drew Brees is in elite company. It'd be nice if people would at least give the dude some credit, especially considering he did it with a bunch of nobody's on his team.
I have no problem giving Brees as the best QB. But to say if you were talking MVP and Turner shouldn't even be mentioned near Brees is crazy.

Sure you can give all the numbers of people who have done something before but can you name another career back up running back that was picked up out of free agency and carried a 4 win team that was ranked 26th in the league in rushing. To 11 wins and 2nd in the league in rushing.

And Yes I know 11 wins is a team stat but the defense is virtually the same as well the o-line(minus Sam Baker who was hurt half the year)

kethnaab
01-03-2009, 11:46 AM
I have no problem giving Brees as the best QB. But to say if you were talking MVP and Turner shouldn't even be mentioned near Brees is crazy.

Sure you can give all the numbers of people who have done something before but can you name another career back up running back that was picked up out of free agency and carried a 4 win team that was ranked 26th in the league in rushing. To 11 wins and 2nd in the league in rushing.

And Yes I know 11 wins is a team stat but the defense is virtually the same as well the o-line(minus Sam Baker who was hurt half the year)

like I said, check the thread title. I'm trying to give people some perspective here.