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View Full Version : whos better- ozzie smith or derek jeter?



Big_Austin
12-31-2008, 02:18 PM
i saw this argument on MLB.com

decided it needed go on bbing.com

explain why you chose who you chose though


i choose jeter for the record...offense pwns ozzies...

jeter career average: .316
ozzie smith: .262

jeter hits: 2535 in 13 years
ozzie: 2460 in 19 years

ozzie is better defensively in every category, but jeter has him offensively in every category (except steals)

SweetTouch
12-31-2008, 02:21 PM
I never saw Ozzie Smith play, so I can't vote.

ddollar
12-31-2008, 02:24 PM
ozzie smith is clearly the better defender but i would still take Jeter when he was younger he played pretty good D and he is on pace to have over 3.5k hits plus he has 4 rings easy choice

tee45peeolb
12-31-2008, 02:25 PM
ozzie smith all the way...better fielde...not a great hitter but got it done in the clutch...and have you see his backflips.

Big_Austin
12-31-2008, 02:29 PM
ozzie smith all the way...better fielde...not a great hitter but got it done in the clutch...and have you see his backflips.

i disagree because hes not even the greatest defensive shortstop of all time

and jeter is clutch as well =) incase you havnt noticed his nickname mr. november or captain clutch

bbacn123
12-31-2008, 02:30 PM
Overall I gotta say Jeter, but Ozzie is still the best fielder of all time IMO

SpiderSense
12-31-2008, 02:31 PM
I'll take Usher

http://uselessplace.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/usher.jpg


I mean Ozzie

http://www.homeruncards.com/imagesplayers/smithozzie.jpg

JIGSAW
12-31-2008, 02:32 PM
post career #'s side by side

even though Jeter ain't done....

Big_Austin
12-31-2008, 02:35 PM
post career #'s side by side

even though Jeter ain't done....

gotcha------- even if jeter was done i still say jeter

tnel00
12-31-2008, 02:37 PM
Jeter offensively by a mile

Ozzie defensively by a mile

As a SS defence takes precedence over offense, so i'm taking Ozzie

bbacn123
12-31-2008, 02:38 PM
post career #'s side by side

even though Jeter ain't done....

Ozzie:
.262 BA
793 RBIs
580 SBs
.337 OBP
13 Time Gold Glove winner

Just 589 Strikeouts in 9396 ABs

281 Errors in 4249 Putouts/8375 assists

1590 DP's turned

Jeter
.316 BA
.387 OBP
1002 RBIs
275 SBs
3 Time Gold Glove winner

1376 Strikeouts in 8025 ABs

205 Errors in 2952 Putouts/5014 assists

1057 DP's turned



Edit: why does D.P.s get blocked out without the periods between them? Like this ***

JIGSAW
12-31-2008, 02:40 PM
Ozzie:
.262 BA
793 RBIs
580 SBs
.337 OBP
13 Time Gold Glove winner

Just 589 Strikeouts in 9396 ABs

281 Errors in 4249 Putouts/8375 assists

1590 DP's turned

Jeter
.316 BA
.387 OBP
1002 RBIs
275 SBs
3 Time Gold Glove winner

1376 Strikeouts in 8025 ABs

205 Errors in 2952 Putouts/5014 assists

1057 DP's turned


Jeter got the MAD power over Ozzie tho :D


Not to mention the




















http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j174/pnstps/Jeterandrings.jpg

Big_Austin
12-31-2008, 02:42 PM
Jeter offensively by a mile

Ozzie defensively by a mile

As a SS defence takes precedence over offense, so i'm taking Ozzie

i dont know about that

it used to be like that BUT i cant think of one ss who is in there strictly for his defense (besides jason bartlett) nowadays like ozzie was back then

hate to say it but if ozzie was brought up today he might be destined as a back up infielder for a contending team

tnel00
12-31-2008, 02:42 PM
Ozzie:
.262 BA
793 RBIs
580 SBs
.337 OBP
13 Time Gold Glove winner

Just 589 Strikeouts in 9396 ABs

281 Errors in 4249 Putouts/8375 assists

1590 DP's turned

Jeter
.316 BA
.387 OBP
1002 RBIs
275 SBs
3 Time Gold Glove winner

1376 Strikeouts in 8025 ABs

205 Errors in 2952 Putouts/5014 assists

1057 DP's turned



Edit: why does D.P.s get blocked out without the periods between them? Like this ***

Ozzie looks like one hell of a leadoff man with those numbers though...589K's in 9396AB's???? That's incredible!!

SweetTouch
12-31-2008, 02:42 PM
Edit: why does D.P.s get blocked out without the periods between them? Like this ***

Maybe mods think it's short for double penetration? :confused: :D

Big_Austin
12-31-2008, 02:44 PM
Ozzie looks like one hell of a leadoff man with those numbers though...589K's in 9396AB's???? That's incredible!!

.262 lifetime batting average with a .337 lifetime on base percentage, .328 slugging

i should hope hes not your leadoff man

tnel00
12-31-2008, 02:51 PM
i dont know about that

it used to be like that BUT i cant think of one ss who is in there strictly for his defense (besides jason bartlett) nowadays like ozzie was back then

hate to say it but if ozzie was brought up today he might be destined as a back up infielder for a contending team

It's not like Ozzie's abysmal offensively. He's an average to above average hitting SS, with great speed and contact numbers

SpiderSense
12-31-2008, 02:53 PM
i should hope hes not your leadoff man

WTF?

That's great if a leadoff hitter doesn't strike out. The only thing you can ask more of a leadoff hitter than that are walks and fouling pitches off.

tnel00
12-31-2008, 02:53 PM
.262 lifetime batting average with a .337 lifetime on base percentage, .328 slugging

i should hope hes not your leadoff man

A guy that sees as many pitches as he does, walks a good amount, around 70-75 in his prime, doesn't strike out, and has good stolen base numbers is one hell of a lead off man

bbacn123
12-31-2008, 02:53 PM
A few more stats I left out above

Jeter
206 HRs
1467 Runs

78% SB success rate
74 Sac hits/ 43 sac fly

Ozzie
28 HRs
1257 Runs

79% SB success rate
214 sac hits/63 sac fly

Ozzie also Grounded into less DP's (167 vs. 195)



Im sticking with Jeter overall, but after checking the numbers Ill admit its closer than I thought.

JIGSAW
12-31-2008, 02:54 PM
WTF?

That's great if a leadoff hitter doesn't strike out. The only thing you can ask more of a leadoff hitter than that are walks and fouling pitches off.

OBP is the only thing that matters for a leadoff man....

the ONLY thing.....

doesn't matter HOW you get on.....just get on

bbacn123
12-31-2008, 02:55 PM
i dont know about that

it used to be like that BUT i cant think of one ss who is in there strictly for his defense (besides jason bartlett) nowadays like ozzie was back then

hate to say it but if ozzie was brought up today he might be destined as a back up infielder for a contending team

I dont think so, plenty of ****ty SS out there who dont hit much better than .250 and cant play half the defense or steal nearly as many bases as Ozzie still start today


OBP is the only thing that matters for a leadoff man....

the ONLY thing.....

doesn't matter HOW you get on.....just get on

Maybe not the only thing, but certainly the most important thing by far.

A lot can still be said for someone who puts the ball in play every AB though, and Ozzie definitely could do that.

tnel00
12-31-2008, 02:56 PM
OBP is the only thing that matters for a leadoff man....

the ONLY thing.....

doesn't matter HOW you get on.....just get on

a guy that can go through an entire pitcher's repoitore in one at bat is pretty f*cking valuable as well, as is speed/ability to steal

scsc
12-31-2008, 02:57 PM
Ozzie was the best fielding short-stop in his day. Derek Jeter is a good fielding short-stop who hits well. Tough Call. I'll go withi Ozzie.

SpiderSense
12-31-2008, 03:06 PM
OBP is the only thing that matters for a leadoff man....

the ONLY thing.....

doesn't matter HOW you get on.....just get on

LOL, that's wrong. A leadoff hitter is almost like a scout. You go up there and try to get as much information for your team as possible. That means fouling off pitches so your guys can get a look at his stuff.

And hitters who have a good eye/ foul off pitches are just valuable anyways. Especially say when you get into the post season where you play them over and over. It wears down the rotation.

Ozzie IMO is the prototypical SS. IMO you don't sacrifice offense for defense at 2B, SS or CF.

JIGSAW
12-31-2008, 03:09 PM
LOL, that's wrong. A leadoff hitter is almost like a scout. You go up there and try to get as much information for your team as possible. That means fouling off pitches so your guys can get a look at his stuff.

And hitters who have a good eye/ foul off pitches are just valuable anyways. Especially say when you get into the post season where you play them over and over. It wears down the rotation.

Ozzie IMO is the prototypical SS. IMO you don't sacrifice offense for defense at 2B, SS or CF.

That ain't wrong......your job is to get on base, not hit HR's, or look at pitches, some just do that....

Get on base.....

jkeithc82
12-31-2008, 03:11 PM
i disagree because hes not even the greatest defensive shortstop of all time

Then who is?

Omar Vizquel is the only one that comes to my mind, and I'd take Ozzie over Omar.

johnny87
12-31-2008, 03:13 PM
That ain't wrong......your job is to get on base, not hit HR's, or look at pitches, some just do that....

Get on base.....

Jimmy Rollins won a mvp like 2 years ago with an OBP of .340 as a leadoff hitter. so obviously, people look at other things other than OBP for leadoff hitters.

that said, id rather have a guy with stats like Ozzie battin 2nd to put the ball in play and move the leadoff hitter into scoring position.

SeanCC
12-31-2008, 03:14 PM
I never saw Ozzie Smith play, so I can't vote.

This.

All I will say is the play where ozzie dove, ball took a nasty play on him, and he barehands it is the best play I have ever seen.

bbacn123
12-31-2008, 03:18 PM
Jimmy Rollins won a mvp like 2 years ago with an OBP of .340 as a leadoff hitter. so obviously, people look at other things other than OBP for leadoff hitters.

that said, id rather have a guy with stats like Ozzie battin 2nd to put the ball in play and move the leadoff hitter into scoring position.

x2. I think he'd be better batting 2nd as well. He'll always put the ball in play and rarely GIDP. Perfect for the number 2 guy

ALPHAMALE419
12-31-2008, 03:25 PM
jeter is the better offensive weapon but ozzies fielding was head and shoulders above jeters....he took away countless would be hits from opposing hitters and fielded some wicked hops on that artificial surface st louis played in....id take ozzie smith over jeter all day....ozzies offense wasnt as soft as some are lead to believe

SpiderSense
12-31-2008, 03:28 PM
That ain't wrong......your job is to get on base, not hit HR's, or look at pitches, some just do that....

Get on base.....

There are finer points, it's not only about getting on base. That's the primary objective, not all of the objectives.

Big_Austin
12-31-2008, 04:01 PM
It's not like Ozzie's abysmal offensively. He's an average to above average hitting SS, with great speed and contact numbers

ozzie smith an above average hitter? even at short he was nowhere close.. never came close to double digit homeruns..and a career high .262 hitter..no thanks..


OBP is the only thing that matters for a leadoff man....

the ONLY thing.....

doesn't matter HOW you get on.....just get on

this. all your great leadoff hitters (AHEM RICKEY HENDERSON) where on base alot.


Then who is?

Omar Vizquel is the only one that comes to my mind, and I'd take Ozzie over Omar.

omar visquel overall has better defensive numbers than ozzie, although ozzie was better offensively(that doesnt say much)

and actually arod is up there too despite popular belief


Jimmy Rollins won a mvp like 2 years ago with an OBP of .340 as a leadoff hitter. so obviously, people look at other things other than OBP for leadoff hitters.

that said, id rather have a guy with stats like Ozzie battin 2nd to put the ball in play and move the leadoff hitter into scoring position.

OBP is the most important statistic for a leadoff hitter. end of story.


jeter is the better offensive weapon but ozzies fielding was head and shoulders above jeters....he took away countless would be hits from opposing hitters and fielded some wicked hops on that artificial surface st louis played in....id take ozzie smith over jeter all day....ozzies offense wasnt as soft as some are lead to believe

.262 batting average, 28 career homeruns...ok he stole bases...not good..he got in the hall for his defense nothing with his offense

Brooknamsfinest
12-31-2008, 04:10 PM
i'm a met fan so i dislike the skanks but ozzie was a light hitting ss. i mean defensively no question ozzie was better. but overall ? it's not even close, it's jeter.

JIGSAW
12-31-2008, 04:51 PM
There are finer points, it's not only about getting on base. That's the primary objective, not all of the objectives.

If your leading off the game or leading off an inning, OBP is everything.....

now if he's due up 2nd or 3rd, you gotta be able to hit a little...and Ozzie's a .260 career hitter....he wasn't hittin THAT much....

SpiderSense
12-31-2008, 04:58 PM
So a pitchers job is to throw the ball? Doesn't matter if he wins or loses, or fields his position? Or his pick off move?

It just boils down to throwing the ball? I'm glad you simplified baseball, here I was playing for almost my whole life making things so complicated :rolleyes:

Big_Austin
12-31-2008, 06:06 PM
So a pitchers job is to throw the ball? Doesn't matter if he wins or loses, or fields his position? Or his pick off move?

It just boils down to throwing the ball? I'm glad you simplified baseball, here I was playing for almost my whole life making things so complicated :rolleyes:

a pitchers job is to get outs

a leadoff hitters job is to get on base
a #2 hitter is supposed to move the runner to the next base
a #3 hitter should drive that run in
etc.

Rhynosaurus
12-31-2008, 07:08 PM
Smith came up in an era where SS werent expected to be heavy hitters. They were on the team to get any and everything that comes up the left-middle, and Smith did this like nobody else.

JIGSAW
12-31-2008, 07:11 PM
This.

All I will say is the play where ozzie dove, ball took a nasty play on him, and he barehands it is the best play I have ever seen.

Best play ever...

http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Derek-Jeter---04-Head-First-Dive-Photograph-C10208100.jpeg
http://assets.espn.go.com/media/mlb/2004/0701/photo/g_jeter3_vi.jpg

Big_Austin
12-31-2008, 08:05 PM
Smith came up in an era where SS werent expected to be heavy hitters. They were on the team to get any and everything that comes up the left-middle, and Smith did this like nobody else.

that doesnt mean they shouldnt be able to hit


Best play ever...

http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Derek-Jeter---04-Head-First-Dive-Photograph-C10208100.jpeg
http://assets.espn.go.com/media/mlb/2004/0701/photo/g_jeter3_vi.jpg

it is =)

waiting for sox fans to come complain about it

JIGSAW
12-31-2008, 09:34 PM
that doesnt mean they shouldnt be able to hit



it is =)

waiting for sox fans to come complain about it

not only that, it was AGAINST the Red Sox.....even better ;)

jkeithc82
12-31-2008, 09:35 PM
not only that, it was AGAINST the Red Sox.....even better ;)

Yeah how did that series go again?

:D

JIGSAW
12-31-2008, 09:37 PM
Yeah how did that series go again?

:D

I don't wanna talk about it man..

still too soon....

jkeithc82
12-31-2008, 09:38 PM
I don't wanna talk about it man..

still too soon....

But it was a great play right? I mean, THE greatest.

Too bad ultimately it didn't count for ****. :D

JIGSAW
12-31-2008, 09:39 PM
But it was a great play right? I mean, THE greatest.

Too bad ultimately it didn't count for ****. :D

Best play ever!! He won an ESPY for that ****.....

jkeithc82
12-31-2008, 09:39 PM
Best play ever!! He won an ESPY for that ****.....

AN ESPY!?!?!?!?

OMFG!!!!111

:D

JIGSAW
12-31-2008, 09:40 PM
AN ESPY!?!?!?!?

OMFG!!!!111

:D

how many ESPY's your boy David Wright have.........

jkeithc82
12-31-2008, 09:43 PM
how many ESPY's your boy David Wright have.........

No idea. I usually don't watch awards shows for the previous year that play in June.

undertowg
12-31-2008, 09:43 PM
Ozzie's carrer BA is .262, thats pretty bad for a leadoff hitter or whatever he was

jkeithc82
12-31-2008, 09:49 PM
Ozzie's carrer BA is .262, thats pretty bad for a leadoff hitter or whatever he was

The Wizard didn't need to hit. He shaved a run off each of his SP ERA's each game. :D

bbacn123
12-31-2008, 11:26 PM
Best play ever!!

Most overrated play ever


AN ESPY!?!?!?!?

OMFG!!!!111

:D

I actually lol'd pretty hard at this

Mister F
12-31-2008, 11:55 PM
Jeter is better offensively, and Smith is better defensively, and offense leads to more wins, so I guess Jeter is better.

That doesn't change the fact, though, that Derek Jeter is likely the most overrated player in the game.

Watching him play defense is fun for the opposite reasons that it's fun to watch Ozzie play defense. Jeter is fun because you can laugh at his lack of range and his "step and a dive" prowess. Ozzie's fun because he's so damn good.

It still amazes me that Derek Jater got so much praise over a play where he caught the ball in fair territory and then decided not to stop running, causing him to crash into the crowd.

2Burnt
01-01-2009, 06:07 AM
The Wizard didn't need to hit. He shaved a run off each of his SP ERA's each game. :D

Finally, what I was looking for. There is an obscure stat out there that Whitey Hertzog used to talk about and it involved Ozzie's capability to stop RBI's and end innings. I agree, as a hitter, no comparison. But what he did defensively is insane. Not sure if there is such a hands down best defensive player at his position than him.

panic91984
01-01-2009, 09:19 AM
Finally, what I was looking for. There is an obscure stat out there that Whitey Hertzog used to talk about and it involved Ozzie's capability to stop RBI's and end innings. I agree, as a hitter, no comparison. But what he did defensively is insane. Not sure if there is such a hands down best defensive player at his position than him.

yep. he was insanely natural (at the same time very cerebral) at his position, which IMO is much more rare.

countless highlight reels are dedicated to the man

JIGSAW
01-01-2009, 09:25 AM
It still amazes me that Derek Jater got so much praise over a play where he caught the ball in fair territory and then decided not to stop running, causing him to crash into the crowd.

You didn't watch the game did you....running FULL SPEED.....

Mister F
01-01-2009, 12:10 PM
You didn't watch the game did you....running FULL SPEED.....

He was indeed running full speed, and the catch itself was impressive. He had to run a long way to get the ball.

But he could have stopped. Or slid to stop. Or slowed down and put a foot on the wall to stop. Or anything else to stop.

Whichever way, it was not necessary at all to wind up headfirst into the second row.

JIGSAW
01-01-2009, 12:51 PM
He was indeed running full speed, and the catch itself was impressive. He had to run a long way to get the ball.

But he could have stopped. Or slid to stop. Or slowed down and put a foot on the wall to stop. Or anything else to stop.

Whichever way, it was not necessary at all to wind up headfirst into the second row.



Guess you're a professional baseball player.....when's the last time you ran full speed....?

Mister F
01-01-2009, 01:18 PM
Guess you're a professional baseball player.....when's the last time you ran full speed....?

I don't need to be a professional baseball player to tell you that when a guy has 20-30 feet after he makes a catch, he can, at the very least, SLOW DOWN.

Just because he's a Yankee doesn't mean you have to defend him. Going HEAD FIRST into the stands was absolutely unnecessary, and that is a fact.

cyberpunkwriter
01-01-2009, 01:22 PM
Ozzie, for his fielding. If it were another position less devoted to fielding, I might go the other way, but for short I'll go defense. Plus the backflips on the field were pretty cool.

2Burnt
01-01-2009, 02:52 PM
Playing the sport I have seen countless plays where a player gives his body up. Why the really big deal on this one in particular. If he doesnt make that play then he's soft, if he does then thats whats up. But leave it at what it is.