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tolhse
11-22-2008, 06:24 PM
if protein and carbs are equal what is the difference. im bulking right now and with my job its much easier to eat 2 food meals and 4 shake meals

jack3d_brah9
11-22-2008, 06:28 PM
there are nutrients in whole foods that are not found in just shakes amongst other reasons

Bedwards
11-22-2008, 07:09 PM
there are nutrients in whole foods that are not found in just shakes amongst other reasons

Hmmmm... What if you grind up whole foods (oats etc.)? :eek:

jack3d_brah9
11-22-2008, 07:15 PM
Hmmmm... What if you grind up whole foods (oats etc.)? :eek:

If you ground up some meat, veggies, and oats or rice i dont think youd want to drink it :D

Depending on the size of those whole food meals and the quality of them you could be fine with that plan though OP

Bedwards
11-22-2008, 07:18 PM
If you ground up some meat, veggies, and oats or rice i dont think youd want to drink it :D

Depending on the size of those whole food meals and the quality of them you could be fine with that plan though OP

Milk, peanut butter, oats, and a banana sounds like a yummy whole food shake to me! :)

tolhse
11-22-2008, 07:24 PM
there are nutrients in whole foods that are not found in just shakes amongst other reasons
like vitamins/minerals?

USCdynamite13
11-22-2008, 07:50 PM
I like the idea of whole food shakes above.

Flex Appeal
11-22-2008, 08:00 PM
Shakes should never take the place of whole foods, they are only a supplement to your diet and sholud be treated as such.

Schnitter
11-22-2008, 08:05 PM
I eat two small meals a day, then 4 power shakes and vitamin pills. I never feel dizzy or in lack of stregth. I will move to a better diet once I get the time to cook broccoli and all the other goodies more often and compare results.

USCdynamite13
11-22-2008, 08:07 PM
Shakes should never take the place of whole foods, they are only a supplement to your diet and sholud be treated as such.

did u copy and paste that from an article?

Flex Appeal
11-22-2008, 08:10 PM
did u copy and paste that from an article?

Why would you say such a stupid thing?

Is it because I sound more intelligent than the responses that you may be used to? :rolleyes:

USCdynamite13
11-22-2008, 08:12 PM
Why would you say such a stupid thing?

Is it because I sound more intelligent than the responses that you may be used to? :rolleyes:


your comment is not an insult to me, but to everyone on here that posts a response since you just asserted your elitistness by saying your post was more intelligent than other people's.


btw why did you neg me?

R_Bid
11-22-2008, 08:15 PM
i've been eating about four balanced whole food meals a day with 4-5 shakes each day and have gone from 174 to 184 in 3 months without sacrificing conditioning in the process.

2 multis, 2 fish oil caps each day, and one of the shakes is Pro Complex Lean Gainer (loaded with nutrients), and another is 1 scoop (1/2 serving) of ON Serious Mass (also fairly well fortified), and i throw a banana into one of the casein + whey shakes.

it's more than safe to say shakes are a staple in my diet, and i'm thriving, not suffering.


there are plenty of other people doing similar things. it's not a bad thing if you're smart about it and value all nutrients as much as you do your macros.

jack3d_brah9
11-22-2008, 08:32 PM
i've been eating about four balanced whole food meals a day with 4-5 shakes each day and have gone from 174 to 184 in 3 months without sacrificing conditioning in the process.

2 multis, 2 fish oil caps each day, and one of the shakes is Pro Complex Lean Gainer (loaded with nutrients), and another is 1 scoop (1/2 serving) of ON Serious Mass (also fairly well fortified), and i throw a banana into one of the casein + whey shakes.

it's more than safe to say shakes are a staple in my diet, and i'm thriving, not suffering.


there are plenty of other people doing similar things. it's not a bad thing if you're smart about it and value all nutrients as much as you do your macros.


Exactly, I was simply saying dont make shakes the main focus of your diet but as a supplement to them. I usually drink a few shakes a day because its convenient and helps me meet my macros for a given day.

Primol
11-22-2008, 10:29 PM
did u copy and paste that from an article?

ya, with spelling errors and everything. i guess its common for people not to spell check when writing articles.

Primol
11-22-2008, 10:30 PM
various articles for those who are unable to google it seems:

Whole Foods vs Shakes For Muscle Gain


After many years of spending hundreds, and even thousands, of dollars, after getting sick on them, and after seeing NO KIND OF RESULTS from them, many have finally realized that they are WORTHLESS. Yet, many are still confused if the supplements that are sold as "Meal Replacements", "Weight Gainers", "natural supplements", and "amino acids" have some good use in substituting for some WHOLE FOODS. Surely you see them in just about every other page in every-single bodybuilding / fitness magazine. Everyone at the gym uses them. Go to any grocery store and they have them there too. Yes, even you have probably used them and / or are using them right now.........


Shakes and supplements.

Many different "meal replacement" powders and shakes, also known as RTD's, are sold as being a substitute for a real, whole food meal. The makers claim that they are "just as good, if not better, than eating a real meal". They claim to have higher amounts of protein, lower amounts of sugar, and add in ingredients such as BCAA's, Glutamine, Creatine, HMB, CLA, so on and so forth. They claim that your muscles need a high amount of this and that, and that you can't get those from just eating the right foods. .....



That's what the makers claim.

First off, no supplement that is out on the market right now will build any kind of real, permanent muscle on your body, none! Not creatine (which makes you gain nothing but "water weight"), not glutamine, not HMB, not NO2, not any one of them. If you are skeptical, perform a test on yourself: For one month, don't change anything about your training routine or your eating habits. Measure your arms, your chest, and your waist with a measuring tape and fat calipers. Take one supplement, and only one. Use it for that month. Then take your measurements again. I guarantee you that your measurements will reveal that your arms or chest didn't get any bigger or vascular, regardless of what the weight scale says. Yes, some people report gaining 8-10 pounds of weight after one week of using creatine, but are those 8-10 pounds muscle? No! They are made up of water and / or fat. The measuring tape and fat calipers will reveal that to you. So, when a meal replacement shake or powder advertises that it is better than eating whole food because it contains all of these extra "muscle building ingredients", don't be fooled. Even if it actually contains those ingredients, they don't work anyway!

Second, meal replacements claim to have a certain amount of protein grams, carb grams, and fat grams. Well, lately there have been several analysis done on many popular supplements, and it has been discovered that many of them do not contain the amount of ingredients as printed on the label!! Just a while back a report was written that a popular "protein bar", that claims to taste like Snickers, contained up to 7% less amount of protein than the label claims. And it contained much more sugar than stated. Many of these makers "skim" on the ingredients to bring the cost down of making those supplements, while lying on the nutrition labels, just to make a bigger profit!

Third, the price. A meal replacement powder can cost you up to $3.00 PER PACKET, while it would probably cost you $1.00 or less if you were to eat the same amount of calories from real food. I don't know about you, but I rather keep my money in my pocket.

Fourth, and probably the most important out of all, is that powders and shakes contain many ingredients that are down-right harmful to your internal body. In order to make these "meal replacements" into powders and to be able to be stored for long periods of time (for shipping and sitting on the store shelves), many chemicals and preservatives must be added. What do you think happens when you are constantly putting into your body foreign chemicals and preservatives, substances that are not from nature. Your body does not handle well those types of unnatural substances. Instead of making you gain muscle, all you will get is a BLOATED STOMACH, DIARRHEA, and EVEN FAT, since your body doesn't digest it well. How many times have you drunk a protein shake and 30 minutes later you start to get "gas"? That's your body's way of telling you that it cannot handle that shake. Also, "meal replacements" DON'T contain vital nutrients that are a "must-have" if you want to grow a healthy physique, such as vitamins, minerals, anti-oxidants, enzymes, etc. These powders don't have any of those things.


Don't believe me, read the nutrition labels.

On the contrary, whole foods are natural, they contain all of the vital nutrients that your body requires to get big and strong, they are much less in price, and they won't cause you to go running to the nearest toilet. Without a doubt, if you want to gain muscular weight, forget about those disgusting-tasting meal replacement powders and shakes, and eat real whole foods, just like our ancestors did back before the supplement industry came along with all of their lies.

http://www. submityourarticle. com/articles/Jonathan-Perez-1252/how-to-gain-weight-7768.php

Primol
11-22-2008, 10:31 PM
another article:

Protein Shakes Vs Foods - Are Protein Shakes More Important Than Real Food in a Bodybuilding Diet?

Even though most people who are just getting started in bodybuilding think that muscle gains are impossible to achieve without protein shakes, real food is by far the most important component of a bodybuilding diet. There are so many nutrients that real food contains, many of which have not even been discovered yet, that you would be doing yourself a disservice by limiting the amount of real food that you are eating.

In addition, real food has what is called a "thermic effect". A "thermic effect" is the impact that real food has in your metabolism. Because real food requires digestion, your body burns more calories in processing it; as opposed to protein shakes which are already pre-digested.

Regardless of what the magazine ads tell you, protein shakes do not offer any muscle building benefit, nor "secret muscle building ingredient", above and beyond what real food offers you. Yes, I have read the ads too with all sorts of speedy muscle building promises, but I can assure you through experience that most of the ingredients advertised as miraculous have not been proven to work; neither by science (even though most ads of this nature usually talk about research studies that usually do not exist) nor by actual results at the gym. These miraculous products however have been proven, beyond the shadow of any scientific doubt, to shrink the size of your wallet and bank account.

What protein shakes do offer the bodybuilder and fitness enthusiast is a convenient way to ingest your protein, thus allowing you to have your five to six meals every day without having to ingest real food in all of them. In addition, the best protein shakes in the market offer a protein blend of different sources of protein, something that introduces amino acid variety into your bodybuilding diet, thus making your nutrition program more complete. However, do not ever think that protein shakes are superior to food.


http:// ezinearticles. com/?Protein-Shakes-Vs-Foods---Are-Protein-Shakes-More-Important-Than-Real-Food-in-a-Bodybuilding-Diet?&id=1586006

Primol
11-22-2008, 10:33 PM
Exactly, I was simply saying dont make shakes the main focus of your diet but as a supplement to them. I usually drink a few shakes a day because its convenient and helps me meet my macros for a given day.

definitely a convenience, not as a daily meal replacement imo.

Behemoth1
11-22-2008, 11:00 PM
like vitamins/minerals?

yes... like vitamins and minerals

R_Bid
11-23-2008, 06:48 AM
In addition, real food has what is called a "thermic effect". A "thermic effect" is the impact that real food has in your metabolism. Because real food requires digestion, your body burns more calories in processing it; as opposed to protein shakes which are already pre-digested.

What protein shakes do offer the bodybuilder and fitness enthusiast is a convenient way to ingest your protein, thus allowing you to have your five to six meals every day without having to ingest real food in all of them. In addition, the best protein shakes in the market offer a protein blend of different sources of protein, something that introduces amino acid variety into your bodybuilding diet, thus making your nutrition program more complete. However, do not ever think that protein shakes are superior to food.

anything you ingest has a 'thermic effect'. protein shakes included. you digest them. they go through the same processes as foods, etc. of course, their thermic effect is certainly a lot lower, but...

to explain what the thermic effect of food actually is for those who are looking at this term and going "ha! foodz hav thermoses!", here's the basics of it: the simple explanation is that the thermic effect of foods are the measure of how many calories your body burns breaking down and digesting that particular food.

i'm going off the top of my head here, so the thermic effect percentages won't be entirely accurate, but i believe these percentages will be within 2% accuracy--it's been about 7 years since i looked at the ranges, though.

protein-- 1g = 4 calories. range of thermic effect from meats 22-26%
fats-- 1g = 9 calories. range of thermic effect from fats 17-20%
carbohydrates-- 1g = 4 calories. range of thermic effect from carbs 10-14%


if you're quick and you just said "HEY! i bet the thermic effect is impacted by food density!"--you are a winner.

so... if your goal is to take in a caloric surplus, and spare as much protein as possible for your body to synthesize it for muscle tissue repair...

could you see any possible reasons why something as simple as whey (very low thermic effect compared to meats) might be a very efficient tool for supplying your body with protein?


i'm not saying you should stop eating whole foods, or anything like that. i'm just saying don't forget to look at the big picture and recognize that there ARE some very good reasons to include some supplements (whey, casein, creatine, multis, fish oil) in your regimen.

they do have value.



also... lets not jump on a term like "thermic effect" and trying to throw it into our Big Bag of Reasons Why Whole Foods > Supps, when it's not really a valid factor for people who are trying to bulk or take in a cal surplus.

StandStrong
11-23-2008, 06:56 AM
It is all up to you man. BUT consuming as much whole food meals is far better, i think but it is a little more difficult if you feel full. If you feel you cant take in a whole food meal, then make you a shake. As long as you are hitting the calorie requirments and macros, then i do not see that big of a problem. Everyone is different. Good Luck

I love shakes my typical shake is a whole banana, oats, scoop of whey (PRO-V60 chocolate ice cream) with some cinnamon!

Beerguy
11-23-2008, 07:18 AM
Do whatever hits your macros dude. I find shakes to be a very easy way to hit my calories and bump my protien cheaply and fast. Are whole foods better? Probaly but we dont always have the time for that if you have any life at all. Shakes make it very easy to be consistant which is ultimately one of the more important eqautions.

matt_marozick
11-23-2008, 09:46 AM
shakes are for convenience and are usually made easier to digest for quick absorption. Not including the casein type shakes however. And yes usually there isn't many nutrients.

BullGod
11-23-2008, 10:07 AM
there are nutrients in whole foods that are not found in just shakes amongst other reasons


You can put whatever you like in yours...I dont use the prepackaged packets..I make my own...You can taylor it to whatever you need. My smoothie (thats what we call em in the raw foodie world) contains every nutrient there is...and in natural form. The concept of them is that your body doesn't have to expend so much energy to digest them as it does solid food. This allows your body to use that energy to repair itself...your body is constantly repairing itself, right down to your dna. Everything you eat is simply turned into liquid so it can pass through the membrane of your intestine to provide nutrition.

tchalla
11-23-2008, 10:08 AM
i've been eating about four balanced whole food meals a day with 4-5 shakes each day and have gone from 174 to 184 in 3 months without sacrificing conditioning in the process.


wow, i went from 175 to 184 in like 3 weeks with 4 meals and 2 shakes a day. you must be a truly hard gainer! either that or doing cardio and depending on your workouts and diet, i guess. meh, progress is progress.

tchalla
11-23-2008, 10:10 AM
yeah but what about those monster buff warriors of old (like pre 18th century and back LOL) who just worked out, ate, and rested with no shakes and such?

Ibballard
11-23-2008, 10:38 AM
yeah but what about those monster buff warriors of old (like pre 18th century and back LOL) who just worked out, ate, and rested with no shakes and such?

Pre-18th century warriors were strong as all hell, but they certainly did not have the kind of body that anyone on this site is aiming for. I really doubt any Vikings or English knights cared what their bf% was, how defined their calf muscles were, or whether they got "pump" when swinging their battle axes.

That being said, your point is valid. You can get big and shredded with no shakes whatsoever. Whole foods will work for any and all goals. But shakes are a useful tool. For convenience, getting additional nutrients, or just ability to get calories into yourself for people who have trouble eating, protein shakes work. Yeah, the thermic effect of digestion is lower for whey than meat, but anyone who is banking on the thermic effect of digestion for their calorie burning needs to get back into the gym. I couldn't give a crap how many calories my body burns digesting food. I'd rather work out till I'm exhausted, chug down a shake so I don't throw up from having something heavy in my stomach, and then eat a meal when I'm ready for it.

ToraAdams
11-23-2008, 12:20 PM
I have shakes to get down as much protien as I'm supposed to. I have a hard time being able to eat that much protien. I add nutrients to my shake . I agree food is better but shake helps me keep my fat stable and hopefully one day down .