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mehdi84
11-18-2008, 07:15 AM
Please critique it, and tell me why or why it wouldn't work.

Instead of giving the big 3 these huge bailout checks, in an attempt to spring them up for a few more quarters, and still potentially fail. Instead of, more or less, bailing out the investors in these companies. Instead of having all Americans pay to help but get potentially nothing in return... let's socialize it in a different way:

Give out tax breaks and huge tax sponsored rebates to those who are willing to purchase a Big 3 vehicle. This will create a huge demand for their products. This will give them money they need to continue their operations, and subsequently give them time to fix their current problems. This will also expose our auto industry into markets that previously had negative bias against them.

Why the hell put money back into the pockets of just the few, instead of letting the money work for everyone.?

Discuss.

drmmrRT
11-18-2008, 07:18 AM
because that would spread the wealth and make the country better rather than put more money in republicans(no liberal) already overflowing bank accounts and we cant have that.

BumP_Therapy
11-18-2008, 07:36 AM
the big fat banker laughs as he smokes his cigar.............

OP your right...............no reason not to do it that way...........but thats not what our government is about.................they arent for the people, they are for themselves, and for whoever pays for them to vote for them..............look at how the financials just got bailed out right at the top...................no sir, this country is going down the ****ter due to a crooked government and a population of which 60% of the people are completely dumb.............

they could have mailed every household a check, and that would have worked soooo much better than a bailout for corporations............but no, they didnt do it..............our government has gone WAY passed being unacceptable, they are a complete travesty and a total disgrace upon this nation

drmmrRT
11-18-2008, 07:41 AM
thats what makes it so hard to be "patriotic". when your government, which is suppose to represent the majority, f*cks its ppl and puts more intheir own accounts. this country was founded on good principles. its a shame they havent carried over

byates5637
11-18-2008, 07:42 AM
Please critique it, and tell me why or why it wouldn't work.

Instead of giving the big 3 these huge bailout checks, in an attempt to spring them up for a few more quarters, and still potentially fail. Instead of, more or less, bailing out the investors in these companies. Instead of having all Americans pay to help but get potentially nothing in return... let's socialize it in a different way:

Give out tax breaks and huge tax sponsored rebates to those who are willing to purchase a Big 3 vehicle. This will create a huge demand for their products. This will give them money they need to continue their operations, and subsequently give them time to fix their current problems. This will also expose our auto industry into markets that previously had negative bias against them.

Why the hell put money back into the pockets of just the few, instead of letting the money work for everyone.?

Discuss.
So where would all of this money come from to give tax sponsored rebates? If everyone wants to buy a big 3 vehicle for these tax breaks, then everyone is going to have to pay more taxes so the government can afford the rebate. So your average middle class worker might get a $3000 tax rebate on his car, but his taxes will increase $3500, $3000 for the rebate and $500 to pay the government's administrative costs.

You must remember the government does not create wealth, it consumes it. They can't just magically give out money to people without taking it from someone else.

Of course they could print the money out of thin air like they often do. But this will cause inflation and push us closer to the bursting of the dollar bubble.

Conclusion: Socialism doesn't work. The government cannot fix problems, it only can create them. Let these companies fail, so more efficient ones can take their place.

Nainoa
11-18-2008, 07:49 AM
Please critique it, and tell me why or why it wouldn't work.

Instead of giving the big 3 these huge bailout checks, in an attempt to spring them up for a few more quarters, and still potentially fail. Instead of, more or less, bailing out the investors in these companies. Instead of having all Americans pay to help but get potentially nothing in return... let's socialize it in a different way:

Give out tax breaks and huge tax sponsored rebates to those who are willing to purchase a Big 3 vehicle. This will create a huge demand for their products. This will give them money they need to continue their operations, and subsequently give them time to fix their current problems. This will also expose our auto industry into markets that previously had negative bias against them.

Why the hell put money back into the pockets of just the few, instead of letting the money work for everyone.?

Discuss.

Well... I think you're looking at this as a Bailout-Bailout Giveaway of cash...

While the legislation hasn't been written up yet... The basic idea is that congress wants to create a bridging loan... Where in the Auto Industry gets a Loan that they have to pay back... And then there are conditions in that loan, where they can pay lesser interest if they meet XYZ marketable standards... XYZ percentage of their line is fuel efficient to ABC level...

What it also does is open up the chance for we the american tax payer to push towards innovations in infrastructure.

Right now under the current free market dynamics, it takes 14 years to turn over a line... So even if we began putting up natural gas fuel stations all over the country... It would take 14 years for the production lag of the Auto Industry to get up to a 100% compliance.

Even if we came up with a Unicorn Fart Reactor tomorrow... It would take 14 years for them to catch up to it.

So in this way... IF the legislation gets written correctly... We can have an effect to shorten that turn over, through financing incentives to the Big 3...

Rather than the alternative, where they declare bankruptcy... Our unemployment rate jumps by 10% in the course of a year... And then a foreign company buys them out, and the heart of American manufacturing profits go over seas with everything else, while we're forced to pay the MUCH HIGHER COST of providing base unemployment services to that 10% of unemployed people added to the currently rising 6.5%

dito
11-18-2008, 07:57 AM
Well... I think you're looking at this as a Bailout-Bailout Giveaway of cash...
%

It is a giveaway. They are still going to go bankrupt with or without it. My work is slow right now(collision repair). I haven't been paid in 3 weeks! Is the government going to come and bail me and my employees out? Nope.

BumP_Therapy
11-18-2008, 08:00 AM
So where would all of this money come from to give tax sponsored rebates? If everyone wants to buy a big 3 vehicle for these tax breaks, then everyone is going to have to pay more taxes so the government can afford the rebate. So your average middle class worker might get a $3000 tax rebate on his car, but his taxes will increase $3500, $3000 for the rebate and $500 to pay the government's administrative costs.

You must remember the government does not create wealth, it consumes it. They can't just magically give out money to people without taking it from someone else.

Of course they could print the money out of thin air like they often do. But this will cause inflation and push us closer to the bursting of the dollar bubble.

Conclusion: Socialism doesn't work. The government cannot fix problems, it only can create them. Let these companies fail, so more efficient ones can take their place.

agreed! let these companies fail........but........they wont...........so with that in mind i would be better to give tax incentives to the cars...........where will the money come from you ask? same place it would come from in a bailout of corporate, the federal reserve!

nutsy54
11-18-2008, 08:00 AM
Instead of having all Americans pay to help but get potentially nothing in return... let's socialize it in a different way:Why does it need to be Socialized at all? This is why Chapter 11 Bankruptcy exists. There's no need to continue rewarding and propping up Failure.

BumP_Therapy
11-18-2008, 08:01 AM
Why does it need to be Socialized at all? This is why Chapter 11 Bankruptcy exists. There's no need to continue rewarding and propping up Failure.

agreed

MawkieMawk
11-18-2008, 08:01 AM
Let our "Free Market" be FREE!

mehdi84
11-18-2008, 08:06 AM
Well... I think you're looking at this as a Bailout-Bailout Giveaway of cash...

While the legislation hasn't been written up yet... The basic idea is that congress wants to create a bridging loan... Where in the Auto Industry gets a Loan that they have to pay back... And then there are conditions in that loan, where they can pay lesser interest if they meet XYZ marketable standards... XYZ percentage of their line is fuel efficient to ABC level...

What it also does is open up the chance for we the american tax payer to push towards innovations in infrastructure.

Right now under the current free market dynamics, it takes 14 years to turn over a line... So even if we began putting up natural gas fuel stations all over the country... It would take 14 years for the production lag of the Auto Industry to get up to a 100% compliance.

Even if we came up with a Unicorn Fart Reactor tomorrow... It would take 14 years for them to catch up to it.

So in this way... IF the legislation gets written correctly... We can have an effect to shorten that turn over, through financing incentives to the Big 3...

Rather than the alternative, where they declare bankruptcy... Our unemployment rate jumps by 10% in the course of a year... And then a foreign company buys them out, and the heart of American manufacturing profits go over seas with everything else, while we're forced to pay the MUCH HIGHER COST of providing base unemployment services to that 10% of unemployed people added to the currently rising 6.5%
Which makes perfect sense. You did a great job summing it up.

I'm going to have to rethink this :P

MawkieMawk
11-18-2008, 08:18 AM
Right now under the current free market dynamics, it takes 14 years to turn over a line... So even if we began putting up natural gas fuel stations all over the country... It would take 14 years for the production lag of the Auto Industry to get up to a 100% compliance.

I don't understand how you are able to apply this logic at all to our 'current free market dynamics'. Last time I checked, we have no current free market dynamics because we do not have a free market. Politicians using big words to describe our economy throw around "free market" terminology, but it retrospect there is no free market operating. Government has their hands in many of the industries our country claims to have. However, with that being said... I do understand the logic you are trying to approach with this...




So in this way... IF the legislation gets written correctly... We can have an effect to shorten that turn over, through financing incentives to the Big 3...

Rather than the alternative, where they declare bankruptcy... Our unemployment rate jumps by 10% in the course of a year... And then a foreign company buys them out, and the heart of American manufacturing profits go over seas with everything else, while we're forced to pay the MUCH HIGHER COST of providing base unemployment services to that 10% of unemployed people added to the currently rising 6.5%

It's not the role of the American people NOR the American government to bail out these corporations. Black and white - their cars are not made as effective or efficient as they should be. The only reason the "Big 3" has been around for as long as they have and not completely hit rock bottom is because of their ties to the American Military Industrial Complex.

I mean, christ, you have Senators ADMITTING that is the reason the companies are around - in case of a national security production. Sen. Sheldon Brown from Ohio said, "letting the industry collapse would also be a national security risk, eliminating companies that were essential in two world wars. 'If we ever need that national security production for serious defense, for any kind of significant war, it's gone,' he said."

URL:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Failure-of-auto-industry-apf-13552316.html

And atop of that, the War of 1812, Revolutionary War, U.S. Civil War, etc. have all had a helping hand from the "american auto industry".


All I am saying is, if we look at what is going on right now - we have NEVER seen what the free market can accomplish. People have been fear mongered into believing that without government regulation, corporations would "run wild" on the average person; but this is not true! Free market economics are considerably influenced by the role of the consumer as a major player - something that government entities alleviates from the mix when they throw their .02 and regulation into an industry.

We cannot continue to bail out companies that are not working to provide consumers with the best product, at the most affordable price, just because of their incompetence in the first place.

nutsy54
11-18-2008, 08:20 AM
Rather than the alternative, where they declare bankruptcy... Our unemployment rate jumps by 10% in the course of a year... Filing for Chapter 11 doesn't mean everyone loses their job. . .

Nainoa
11-18-2008, 09:52 AM
Why does it need to be Socialized at all? This is why Chapter 11 Bankruptcy exists. There's no need to continue rewarding and propping up Failure.

But see now this is the problem with idelogical thinking... Is that it only exists in a Knee-Jerk Present tense reaction...

Yes... This is sticking a dick in the ass of the American Tax Payer and you better hope that's just a cup of hot yogurt it's tossing on your back after it's done.

But look at the future...

What does chapter 11 mean...

It means an increase of 5-10% in the unemployment rate... That's sure as **** going to cost you more 12 months from now than a briding loan!!!

But what it also means is that the Big 3 go up for sale... Who can afford to buy them?

Foreign banks, and conglomerations...

And then we're sitting here 5 years from now trying to recover our entire economy with our largest industry being owned by some dick-bag sweedish Corporation, or some peckerheads in china.

Where they're going to outsource the brand manufacturing, and to other countries, and it will just be another avenue for yet another transfer of wealth out of America.

*****

Right now one of the HUGE problems with this economy is that we don't make anything any more... So we import goods, and pay more than we recieve... We're transfering our wealth elsewhere...

Right now we need Auto Manufacturing and Agriculture... As key players to help pull us out of this... Hopefully the legislation that comes out, will have a heavy hand in re-organizing and line redevelopment for interest rebates... So that the big three will come along faster to the changes we need to make both in how we do business, as well as our energy and transportation infrastructure...

I fail to see how selling these goddam companies to China so the Ideological thinkers can be happy, will do **** to help the problem...

Nainoa
11-18-2008, 09:58 AM
Which makes perfect sense. You did a great job summing it up.

I'm going to have to rethink this :P

Hopefully this legislation is written up correctly...

Really... No matter how we slice the bacon... We're going to have a rough time pulling out of this economic slump... And we need to hold back the panic... Look at the work that needs to be done... And "Invest" in the future.

If this legislation is written up the way I've heard speculated... We might be able to pull this one out with a net gain 10 years from now, with a progressive auto industry, that works in synch with the new progressive infrastructure products.

Hopefully, it gets written up with minimal pork and with these progressive incentive package...

Because if it is just like how the yet underinformed ideologs say "Just a Gift" then it might just serve to drive us deeper into the hole.

Nainoa
11-18-2008, 09:59 AM
Filing for Chapter 11 doesn't mean everyone loses their job. . .

No it means that 5 years from Now Ford, GM, and Chrysler are all owned by China, Japan and Germany and we've goose stepped our way into sending yet another batch of American Jobs over seas to countries that don't like us that much.

sugicalmike
11-18-2008, 10:04 AM
I like that idea Mehdi,

I'm getting frustrated at these people saying 'We're not going to want to buy from a bankrupt company'

They don't seem to realize a Chapter 11 doesn't mean GM is dissappearing from the face of the earth, just reorganizing..... that doesn't mean quality will go down the ****s too..... if anything, I imagine a post bankruptcy GM vehicle would be quite good, to survive they'd almost have to pump out a vehicle that is better and more efficient than the competitors.

I also agree with Nainoa though, a bankruptcy is going to leave many components of the American auto-industry hanging ass-out in the open to be picked off by Asia's corporate snipers.

It's a tricky situation either way you look at it.

Nainoa
11-18-2008, 10:42 AM
I like that idea Mehdi,

I'm getting frustrated at these people saying 'We're not going to want to buy from a bankrupt company'

They don't seem to realize a Chapter 11 doesn't mean GM is dissappearing from the face of the earth, just reorganizing..... that doesn't mean quality will go down the ****s too..... if anything, I imagine a post bankruptcy GM vehicle would be quite good, to survive they'd almost have to pump out a vehicle that is better and more efficient than the competitors.

I also agree with Nainoa though, a bankruptcy is going to leave many components of the American auto-industry hanging ass-out in the open to be picked off by Asia's corporate snipers.

It's a tricky situation either way you look at it.

But that's also why I'm "For a Bridging Loan."

And would be "Disappointed" with a flat bail out.

Because no Frackin' matter what... We can't let these manufacturers send their future profits over seas... I mean really... I'd rather get Fukked in the ass once, and walk away trying to forget it, then watch my children get Fukked in the ass every day.

BumP_Therapy
11-18-2008, 11:28 AM
Our Government Sucks!!!!!!!!!!!

Spetsnazos
11-18-2008, 11:42 AM
Conclusion: Socialism doesn't work. The government cannot fix problems, it only can create them. Let these companies fail, so more efficient ones can take their place.
you call govt giving money to the bourgeois socialism?

wow, what the hell do people learn in American schools?

BumP_Therapy
11-18-2008, 11:50 AM
its like a weird socialism for the mega rich..........tyrannism?

icetrauma
11-18-2008, 11:58 AM
Their needs to be a reorganization of some sort by both the Big 3 and the union. If it is through banruptcy then so be it. This is no longer the early 1900's. Times have changed and the unions and Big 3 need to change and fast. If a bail out is given, again, then all exec.'s salaries need to be capped without bonus's. Re-tool their products to meet todays and tomorrows needs. Not everyone wants/needs a vehicle that gets 300+hp or can tow a 2+tons.

Nainoa
11-18-2008, 12:12 PM
Their needs to be a reorganization of some sort by both the Big 3 and the union. If it is through banruptcy then so be it. This is no longer the early 1900's. Times have changed and the unions and Big 3 need to change and fast. If a bail out is given, again, then all exec.'s salaries need to be capped without bonus's. Re-tool their products to meet todays and tomorrows needs. Not everyone wants/needs a vehicle that gets 300+hp or can tow a 2+tons.

Yeah but at the same time... Those of us who do need a Vehicle that can town 5 tons (2 tons is pretty frackin pussy BTW)... Don't want that truck getting nerfed!

*I'm just saying.

*****

Again though... The problem with Bankruptcy is that it implies someone is going to buy it up... And that someone will be other countries...

Mitsubishi already has too much influence into Chrysler as it is...

Nainoa
11-18-2008, 12:13 PM
its like a weird socialism for the mega rich..........tyrannism?

Try Facism...

byates5637
11-18-2008, 12:13 PM
you call govt giving money to the bourgeois socialism?

wow, what the hell do people learn in American schools?

Did you even read this thread? We are talking about the government giving money to ANYONE who buys a certain type of vehicle, not only one specific class of people.

But anyway, perhaps fascism would be a more fitting term then socialism for this specific plan. Sometimes socialism and fascism are almost indistinguishable though.

Nainoa
11-18-2008, 12:23 PM
Did you even read this thread? We are talking about the government giving money to ANYONE who buys a certain type of vehicle, not only one specific class of people.

But anyway, perhaps fascism would be a more fitting term then socialism for this specific plan. Sometimes socialism and fascism are almost indistinguishable though.

I think we have to keep perspective in these tough times on the nitty gritty of our role in this crisis...

Every generation has the duty of advancing the course of America for the next generation and each generation has challenges that have to be faced in order to preserve America.

Our Father's fought the cold war...
Our Grandfathers fought WWII...

The Generation before Fought WWI
The Generation before brought us into the Industrialized era...

The list goes on

It's now the duty of this generation to replace illusion with substance... To preserve the American way... To work hard and live wise, so that we might come out of this with a new understanding of the kind of country we have to become in order to thrive in the 21st century...

And just like any struggle there are good things and bad... And usually you have to lose a little ground to gain a little ground later.

In the end we on the ground have to make the truly tough transition, from a nation of whiners into a nation of fighters... From a nation of pencil pushers into a nation of workers...

And the Government is just buying us time to get all of this to sink in... The way we do things has to change... And stuff like this Auto Industry crisis is a part of that...

There are things that we're going to lose... We just have to make sure that when we lose, it's because we're paying a sound investment into the future... And not just taking one in the shorts because of mistakes we made in the past.

bulletproofsoul
11-18-2008, 01:49 PM
Hopefully this legislation is written up correctly...

Really... No matter how we slice the bacon... We're going to have a rough time pulling out of this economic slump... And we need to hold back the panic... Look at the work that needs to be done... And "Invest" in the future.

If this legislation is written up the way I've heard speculated... We might be able to pull this one out with a net gain 10 years from now, with a progressive auto industry, that works in synch with the new progressive infrastructure products.

Hopefully, it gets written up with minimal pork and with these progressive incentive package...

Because if it is just like how the yet underinformed ideologs say "Just a Gift" then it might just serve to drive us deeper into the hole.Ahhh...a pragmatist. ;)

What has Chapter 11 resulted in for the airline industry?

Higher airfares, less "relative" travel and almost no profit margin, and many people have lost entire careers, seniority, benefits, etc., that they earned, as well as entire airlines simply vanishing. Travel related/tourism industries have also taken a beating; from rental car companies to hotels, tour operators and so on that employ millions and millions of people.

It's called a "ripple effect".

The causes were high fuel prices and security fees, post 9/11. The government added these security fees onto the ticket price, because god forbid they should raise, or not cut as much tax, to pay for it. They contracted out the bulk of the security to private firms that are more expensive because they want a nice profit, instead of focusing on hiring less expensive federal TSA security, all in the name of avoiding "big government", "taxes" and "socialism", which smacks of fascism more than anything else.

So...people just don't want to take as many trips. Airlines are now even charging for a suitcase. What most people don't know is that for an airline just to make any money on a single flight, they have to fill every plane as well as carry cargo for added revenue and end up making: $200 per flight if they fill the plane to capacity.
If they lose 1 passenger, they break even, 2 and they lose more, 3 loses more and so on.

A very good friend of mine has a sister who worked as a flight attendant for Aloha Airlines for 20 years. This was the main inter-island airline in Hawai'i. It is, in that state, a cultural icon. It is now bankrupt and has ceased to exist. She lost all those years of seniority, benefits, etc. That is, to me...tragic and heartbreaking. She loved her job and was hard-working and dedicated. Isn't that essentially a first-hand account of a real-life story and the effects of what can occur and has been occurring all over this country?

You betchya!

And who ends up paying for all the unemployment and public healthcare benefits of people who have lost jobs? Yeah, the taxpayers...oh wait! It's all just added to the massive national debt.

:rolleyes:

So now we come to the Big 3 and should we let them all go belly up into Chapter 11?

Let me quote President-Elect Obama: "For the auto industry to completely collapse would be a disaster in this kind of environment...So my hope is that over the course of the next week, between the White House and Congress, the discussions are shaped around providing assistance but making sure that that assistance is conditioned on labor, management, suppliers, lenders, all of the stakeholders coming together with a plan ? what does a sustainable U.S. auto industry look like?"

Well, that cuts right to the center of the matter. I think this question needs to be answered before anyone can decide what to do. The consequences of Chapter 11 could be far more expensive in the form of who knows how many lost jobs in the industry and related ones as well as another huge ripple effect. I think comparing the auto-industry to the airline industry is an apples and oranges comparison in many ways because one manufactures and sells a product and the other provides a service, for starters. It seems to me simplistic just to assume that what "worked for the airlines will work for the auto industry". I think the point that who wants to buy a new car from a company in Ch. 11...is a very good one and worth considering.

I know I wouldn't. Would you? Ever heard of a warrantee?

More of the slash and burn, robber baron era, unfettered, total laissez faire capitalism ideology that failed to regulate and foresee any of these sequences of disasters, ruined our economy. This was all done by a republican congress and president who engaged in these policies, in their obsession with Reaganism, taken to the extreme. "Common sense regulation" does not mean socialism. The Constitution explicitly states in Article 1, Section 8, that Congress has the power to regulate the economy. Were the Founding Fathers socialists?

I fail to see how more of this "Pontius Pilate", wash our hands, ideological approach can be a solution. I don't pretend to know exactly what will work, but I do know what hasn't.

I also know that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. What remains to be seen is if there is an ounce of prevention even possible that may prevent this latest collapse with its inevitable pound of cure.

Nainoa
11-18-2008, 02:01 PM
Ahhh...a pragmatist. ;)

What has Chapter 11 resulted in for the airline industry?

Higher airfares, less "relative" travel and almost no profit margin, and many people have lost entire careers, seniority, benefits, etc., that they earned, as well as entire airlines simply vanishing. Travel related/tourism industries have also taken a beating; from rental car companies to hotels, tour operators and so on that employ millions and millions of people.

It's called a "ripple effect".

The causes were high fuel prices and security fees, post 9/11. The government added these security fees onto the ticket price, because god forbid they should raise, or not cut as much tax, to pay for it. They contracted out the bulk of the security to private firms that are more expensive because they want a nice profit, instead of focusing on hiring less expensive federal TSA security, all in the name of avoiding "big government", "taxes" and "socialism", which smacks of fascism more than anything else.

So...people just don't want to take as many trips. Airlines are now even charging for a suitcase. What most people don't know is that for an airline just to make any money on a single flight, they have to fill every plane as well as carry cargo for added revenue and end up making: $200 per flight if they fill the plane to capacity.
If they lose 1 passenger, they break even, 2 and they lose more, 3 loses more and so on.

A very good friend of mine has a sister who worked as a flight attendant for Aloha Airlines for 20 years. This was the main inter-island airline in Hawai'i. It is, in that state, a cultural icon. It is now bankrupt and has ceased to exist. She lost all those years of seniority, benefits, etc. That is, to me...tragic and heartbreaking. She loved her job and was hard-working and dedicated. Isn't that essentially a first-hand account of a real-life story and the effects of what can occur and has been occurring all over this country?

You betchya!

And who ends up paying for all the unemployment and public healthcare benefits of people who have lost jobs? Yeah, the taxpayers...oh wait! It's all just added to the massive national debt.

:rolleyes:

So now we come to the Big 3 and should we let them all go belly up into Chapter 11?

Let me quote President-Elect Obama: "For the auto industry to completely collapse would be a disaster in this kind of environment...So my hope is that over the course of the next week, between the White House and Congress, the discussions are shaped around providing assistance but making sure that that assistance is conditioned on labor, management, suppliers, lenders, all of the stakeholders coming together with a plan ? what does a sustainable U.S. auto industry look like?"

Well, that cuts right to the center of the matter. I think this question needs to be answered before anyone can decide what to do. The consequences of Chapter 11 could be far more expensive in the form of who knows how many lost jobs in the industry and related ones as well as another huge ripple effect. I think comparing the auto-industry to the airline industry is an apples and oranges comparison in many ways because one manufactures and sells a product and the other provides a service, for starters. It seems to me simplistic just to assume that what "worked for the airlines will work for the auto industry". I think the point that who wants to buy a new car from a company in Ch. 11...is a very good one and worth considering.

I know I wouldn't. Would you? Ever heard of a warrantee?

More of the slash and burn, robber baron era, unfettered, total laissez faire capitalism ideology that failed to regulate and foresee any of these sequences of disasters, ruined our economy. This was all done by a republican congress and president who engaged in these policies, in their obsession with Reaganism, taken to the extreme. "Common sense regulation" does not mean socialism. The Constitution explicitly states in Article 1, Section 8, that Congress has the power to regulate the economy. Were the Founding Fathers socialists?

I fail to see how more of this "Pontius Pilate", wash our hands, ideological approach can be a solution. I don't pretend to know exactly what will work, but I do know what hasn't.

I also know that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. What remains to be seen is if there is an ounce of prevention even possible that may prevent this latest collapse with its inevitable pound of cure.

Great now I feel guilty, about Flying Hawiian Airlines! (Aloha's Competitor!)

;)
:D

I agree with you pretty much on all of this...

The one thing that I think has more weight in the comparison between the airline industry and the Auto industry...

When an airline declares chapter 11, there is almost always another airline solvent enough to buy it up. (Such as the NWA Delta "Merger")

In the case of the American Auto Industry... There is no American company that can buy them up... Unless frackin' Microsoft decides to buy Ford... Which I'll be damned if I want the people who made Vista installing my 4 wheel drive hubs! ;) :D

So if they go Chapter 11... Not only is there a ripple effect... But it will also mean MORE american jobs lost over seas... MORE price raises in Parts...

And we have to safe guard against that...

**** Anheiser Bush is owned by some peckerheads from sweeden... And I'm sure Adolfus Bush if rolling over in his grave... Now it's Henry Fords turn to roll over?

*****

We need to end the era of Ideological bull****, and get back to the age when we were all American's first and foremost... And you could have a beer, or share a fox hole with the man next to you without giving a **** whether he votes right wing or left.

Spetsnazos
11-18-2008, 02:23 PM
Did you even read this thread? We are talking about the government giving money to ANYONE who buys a certain type of vehicle, not only one specific class of people.

But anyway, perhaps fascism would be a more fitting term then socialism for this specific plan. Sometimes socialism and fascism are almost indistinguishable though.

i read the thread,

and i also read "Conclusion: Socialism fails..."

explain the above

bulletproofsoul
11-18-2008, 03:21 PM
Great now I feel guilty, about Flying Hawiian Airlines! (Aloha's Competitor!)

;)
:D

I agree with you pretty much on all of this...

The one thing that I think has more weight in the comparison between the airline industry and the Auto industry...

When an airline declares chapter 11, there is almost always another airline solvent enough to buy it up. (Such as the NWA Delta "Merger")

In the case of the American Auto Industry... There is no American company that can buy them up... Unless frackin' Microsoft decides to buy Ford... Which I'll be damned if I want the people who made Vista installing my 4 wheel drive hubs! ;) :D

So if they go Chapter 11... Not only is there a ripple effect... But it will also mean MORE american jobs lost over seas... MORE price raises in Parts...

And we have to safe guard against that...

**** Anheiser Bush is owned by some peckerheads from sweeden... And I'm sure Adolfus Bush if rolling over in his grave... Now it's Henry Fords turn to roll over?

*****

We need to end the era of Ideological bull****, and get back to the age when we were all American's first and foremost... And you could have a beer, or share a fox hole with the man next to you without giving a **** whether he votes right wing or left.Exactly...what will replace them? I don't envision other carmakers buying them to compete with their own products and the credit crunch and recession are hurting them also so they can't buy their facilities to make more of their own. And with what would they merger? We're not talking additional routes and more or less identical aircraft.

The only thing I could see would be to turn most of it into manufacturing and selling wind turbine, solar and clean coal technologies. In my view, this would be a far more worthwhile investment with a massive and sustainable long term payoff.

And speaking of Microsoft, to address the OP directly, I'd rather cough up for a "bleeding edge" iPod Touch or 3G iPhone than be given a FREE Zune. I'd rather cough up for a bleeding edge iMac or MacBook Pro than be given a FREE cheaply made PC running a beast of an OS as opposed to a bleeding edge OS. (No offense to anyone running such intended...)

Why? Well it's called innovation, customer satisfaction, ease of use, and so on.

Apple's products sell themselves vs. Microsoft sells hardware at a loss using their monopoly money to subsidize them and/or advertise their way out of their massive, bureaucratic stagnation.

Sound familiar?

Well, the stagnant Big 3 don't have $40 billion in cash lying around to stay afloat. And ask any economist if they think Microsoft can continue with its current business model forever and all will say" "Get a clue!" :eek:

One cannot "create" demand for cars by paying people to buy them. The cars need to sell themselves, just like any product. Honda, BMW and Apple aren't 3 of the most powerful brands on Earth by accident. The DNA of capitalism is innovation.

swagtime911
11-18-2008, 03:30 PM
thats what makes it so hard to be "patriotic". when your government, which is suppose to represent the majority, f*cks its ppl and puts more intheir own accounts. this country was founded on good principles. its a shame they havent carried over

Man thats when it pays to be the MOST patriotic. It's starting to seem like a real good idea to kick every single member of government in Washington right off the fuking planet. Start fresh with some real Americans, establish some states rights, get back to the constitution, and move on. If they screw up, they know what comes next.

BumP_Therapy
11-18-2008, 03:47 PM
truth!!!!!!!!!!! damn i like this guy!!!!!!

Spetsnazos
11-18-2008, 04:04 PM
Man thats when it pays to be the MOST patriotic. It's starting to seem like a real good idea to kick every single member of government in Washington right off the fuking planet. Start fresh with some real Americans, establish some states rights, get back to the constitution, and move on. If they screw up, they know what comes next.

just like when the people wrote in 1000 to 1 against the bailout bill and the representatives still voted for it?

the proletariats opinion doesnt mean crap to the bourgeois that control our politicians.

KRANE
11-18-2008, 04:31 PM
just like when the people wrote in 1000 to 1 against the bailout bill and the representatives still voted for it?

the proletariats opinion doesnt mean crap to the bourgeois that control our politicians.We elected them for that. The people will get their chance to let their views be known the next voting cycle. If we feel they made a bad choice, we can get rid of them.
Great now I feel guilty, about Flying Hawiian Airlines! (Aloha's Competitor!)

;)
:D

I agree with you pretty much on all of this...

The one thing that I think has more weight in the comparison between the airline industry and the Auto industry...

When an airline declares chapter 11, there is almost always another airline solvent enough to buy it up. (Such as the NWA Delta "Merger")Then let the Big 3 merge...again. Maybe they can do together what they can't do separate?


In the case of the American Auto Industry... There is no American company that can buy them up... Unless frackin' Microsoft decides to buy Ford... Which I'll be damned if I want the people who made Vista installing my 4 wheel drive hubs! ;) :DThen it should die. It won't be the first industry we've give up to foreign interest. Because we got to greedy and couldn't compete.


So if they go Chapter 11... Not only is there a ripple effect... But it will also mean MORE american jobs lost over seas... MORE price raises in Parts...

And we have to safe guard against that... It won't be the first time. The Big 3's divisions used to be separate car companies.


**** Anheiser Bush is owned by some peckerheads from sweeden... And I'm sure Adolfus Bush if rolling over in his grave... Now it's Henry Fords turn to roll over?Now that's not exactly a fair comparison. Unlike the Big 3, Budweiser (Anheuser-Busch) was a highly successful company all along. The only reason it sold out (after repeated offers) to the Belgian company (InBev) was to compete globally. As other companies had gained market shares by uniting. Unlike the poorly managed, and greed driven auto industry, Budweiser remains one of Americas greatest success stories.

*****


We need to end the era of Ideological bull****, and get back to the age when we were all American's first and foremost... And you could have a beer, or share a fox hole with the man next to you without giving a **** whether he votes right wing or left.You can still have that beer. Just don't drink it out of the can.