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ElMariachi
09-09-2008, 11:07 AM
I lose faith in humanity more and more each day.


As the SEPTA subway train rocked forward, a thirty-something guy leaned over near the doorway and gently planted a kiss on the little boy at his side.

When the train neared the Fairmount Avenue stop shortly after midnight on Thursday, the man reached out like an adoring parent and directed the 3- or 4-year-old tyke to an open seat.

Then he flew into a monstrous rage.

Without uttering a word, police said, the unidentified man whipped out a double-claw hammer and began bludgeoning a 20-year-old man who was dozing off in his seat.

For five long minutes, SEPTA surveillance cameras captured the deranged attacker - who was still on the loose late last night- digging his hammer into the man's head and neck.

Through it all, disgusted investigators said, at least 10 passengers stood by and did nothing as the random attack moved from the train to the platform, when the hammer-wielding maniac tried to push his victim down onto the train tracks.

When the beating was finished and the suspect fled with the little boy, the victim staggered back onto the train, bloodied, confused and alone, said Detective Kenneth Roach, of Central Detectives.

And even then, no one tried to help him.

"Somebody should have helped this guy," Roach said. "I understand the [other] guy had a hammer, but they outnumbered him at least 10 to one."

Miraculously, the victim took the subway up to Temple University Hospital, received several staples and sutures and was discharged, Roach said.

The motive remains a mystery.

"I'm baffled," Roach said. "He had no reason to do that. It was unprovoked. The victim was just going home from work, minding his own business, listening to his iPod."

Roach said that the victim, whose name was not released, boarded the subway at City Hall.

The attacker - a bearded, stocky, 5-foot-9-inch black man who wore a yellow shirt and black pants - also got on at City Hall, with a youngster who may or may not be his child.

The victim and the hammer-toting psychopath never exchanged a word or a glance, Roach said.

"According to the victim, there was no contact or verbal discussion," he said. "They didn't even notice each other."

The hammer was hidden in a black-and-yellow book bag that the attacker clutched throughout the short subway ride.

The little boy dashed off the train with the other passengers during the brutal beat-down, but was later seen running back on to recover the book bag. The boy and the suspect are seen on camera leaving together.

Roach described the attacker as "very dangerous" and asked anyone who knows him to contact police at 215-686-3093 or -3094. *

Anubis18
09-09-2008, 11:10 AM
Wow thats pretty ****ed up, glad the guy survived. If I saw this guy on the streets I'd probably beat him as close to death as physically possible without actually getting murder charges.

NotStandingBy
09-09-2008, 11:11 AM
Wow thats pretty ****ed up, glad the guy survived. If I saw this guy on the streets I'd probably beat him as close to death as physically possible without actually getting murder charges.

That's what the stand-by people would say when they read the news. In actuality you'd just stand there and watch.

JUSA
09-09-2008, 11:14 AM
Obama needs to get elected and ban hammers. Clearly that is the problem.

TheStender
09-09-2008, 11:14 AM
I won't comment on the fact that no one did anything, except for this.

What really baffles me is that a guy can go onto a subway train, attack someone, and get off, and just not get caught. (yet)

Organichu
09-09-2008, 11:15 AM
I ride that train almost every day. I would not stand and watch. SEPTA has terrible security and I have stepped into conflicts on the Orange Line... lots of retarded high school brawls (as the Orange Line services several high schools).

Scary and sad stuff.

2.0Tsunami
09-09-2008, 11:15 AM
That's what the stand-by people would say when they read the news. In actuality you'd just stand there and watch.

While that may be true for most, there are still some of us that have not been pussified by society.

This is where my dad would say "that's why I carry a gun".

KRANE
09-09-2008, 11:18 AM
Obama needs to get elected and ban hammers. Clearly that is the problem.With spin tactics like that, you should

MFarrar74
09-09-2008, 11:18 AM
the people who watched and did nothing are worse than the attacker..

Minotaur
09-09-2008, 11:18 AM
In actuality you'd just stand there and watch.

And I'd never be able to look at myself in the mirror again if I were any of those people. Nope, I'd open a 217 lb can of Kick-His-Ass(R) on him.

KRANE
09-09-2008, 11:21 AM
I ride that train almost every day. I would not stand and watch. SEPTA has terrible security and I have stepped into conflicts on the Orange Line... lots of retarded high school brawls (as the Orange Line services several high schools).

Scary and sad stuff.So do I, and neither would I. But every time I say something regarding negative behavior, people remind me that I need to mind my own business. Perhaps I should use this add as a comeback from now on. What do you think?

Tsudo
09-09-2008, 11:22 AM
This reminds me of how [no racism]white people live by the hope factor, e.g. "I hope no one hits me or anyone else with a hammer while I ride the subway...and how black people live by the wish factor, e.g. "I wish a motherf*cker would hit me or someone with a hammer while I ride the subway".[no racism]

edit to clear up the "racism" lol

9rxDsqhgCJc

Organichu
09-09-2008, 11:26 AM
So do I, and neither would I. But every time I say something regarding negative behavior, people remind me that I need to mind my own business. Perhaps I should use this add as a comeback from now on. What do you think?

I think when it deals with the welfare of your friends and your family, it is your business. I'm not sure whether I'll settle permanently in Philadelphia, but if I do would I feel comfortable with my wife riding the Orange Line? With my child jumping on the Blue Line to head to school?

I don't think I would be, and if I didn't do my part to amend that (in words and in actions) I'd be morally remiss.

NotStandingBy
09-09-2008, 11:27 AM
And I'd never be able to look at myself in the mirror again if I were any of those people. Nope, I'd open a 217 lb can of Kick-His-Ass(R) on him.

I agree. If I see one man using a hammer on another man, it's a timeout for him.


the people who watched and did nothing are worse than the attacker..

I agree.


While that may be true for most, there are still some of us that have not been pussified by society.

This is where my dad would say "that's why I carry a gun".

You mean few? Because I'd be satisfied with some. Most people are pussy and few are like you.


I ride that train almost every day. I would not stand and watch. SEPTA has terrible security and I have stepped into conflicts on the Orange Line... lots of retarded high school brawls (as the Orange Line services several high schools).

Scary and sad stuff.

I've been in street brawls before and nobody did anything to help me, I doubt that's going to change and I'm not going to rely on getting lucky and having a bb.com member save me.

To put, I've been jumped by people with blunt weapons and nobody did anything.

Organichu
09-09-2008, 11:29 AM
I've been in street brawls before and nobody did anything to help me, I doubt that's going to change and I'm not going to rely on getting lucky and having a bb.com member save me.

To put, I've been jumped by people with blunt weapons and nobody did anything.

I don't think you should rely on anyone to protect you and your family. I don't.

It'd be nice if I could, though.

SaviorSix
09-09-2008, 11:29 AM
This reminds me of how [no racism]white people live by the hope factor, e.g. "I hope no one hits me or anyone else with a hammer while I ride the subway...and how black people live by the wish factor, e.g. "I wish a motherf*cker would hit me or someone with a hammer while I ride the subway".[no racism]

Very interesting

YUL
09-09-2008, 11:36 AM
yea I saw that on the news last night.

the guy stepped on the train with his son, then moved him away before reaching in his bag for the hammer.

pretty sad considering the episodic violence that we saw on the El and the subway this summer.

KRANE
09-09-2008, 11:42 AM
I agree. If I see one man using a hammer on another man, it's a timeout for him.



I agree.



You mean few? Because I'd be satisfied with some. Most people are pussy and few are like you.



I've been in street brawls before and nobody did anything to help me, I doubt that's going to change and I'm not going to rely on getting lucky and having a bb.com member save me.

To put, I've been jumped by people with blunt weapons and nobody did anything.I've helped and been helped, so don't give up hope. There's still some decent people left.

NotStandingBy
09-09-2008, 11:43 AM
I don't think you should rely on anyone to protect you and your family. I don't.

It'd be nice if I could, though.

I don't as well but in some case it's unavoidable. In my case there were no police and I was alone and much smaller than the attackers (they were all taller). One had a small seemingly hallow pipe. One swing while I was trying to fend off the attackers and down I went trying to give cover to myself.

They left on the next station and I just sat there wondering why that happened. Someone saw blood and called 911. I was told they were apparently a part of a racist gang and attacked anyone not their color. Of course being an optimistic I didn't give that thought a consideration. Now? If I see two same colored men coming at me, they are racist ****er that will be put down with a weapon if I am given the chance.


Very interesting

Yep, I've seen this kind of dynamic.

drxmn
09-09-2008, 11:47 AM
strong pussy bystander syndrome or whatever its called

how about pick up **** and ruin the guy with the hammers life?

Organichu
09-09-2008, 11:47 AM
I don't as well but in some case it's unavoidable. In my case there were no police and I was alone and much smaller than the attackers (they were all taller). One had a small seemingly hallow pipe. One swing while I was trying to fend off the attackers and down I went trying to give cover to myself.

They left on the next station and I just sat there wondering why that happened. Someone saw blood and called 911. I was told they were apparently a part of a racist gang and attacked anyone not their color. Of course being an optimistic I didn't give that thought a consideration. Now? If I see two same colored men coming at me, they are racist ****er that will be put down with a weapon if I am given the chance.

Do you live in Philly? There's a racist group that wanders around NoLib with a stun gun... my friend had to draw on them and they scattered. Scary stuff.

NotStandingBy
09-09-2008, 11:49 AM
Do you live in Philly? There's a racist group that wanders around NoLib with a stun gun... my friend had to draw on them and they scattered. Scary stuff.

New York.

Organichu
09-09-2008, 11:51 AM
New York.

Yeah I lived in NYC for a year. It's interesting how different regions of the city will garner different results in that sense. Some stretches of the subway people will pretty much ignore a nuke going off in front of them. In others, no chance. I doubt an assault would be ignored on the 7 right after a Mets game.

YUL
09-09-2008, 11:58 AM
Do you live in Philly? There's a racist group that wanders around NoLib with a stun gun... my friend had to draw on them and they scattered. Scary stuff.


you live in Nolibs?

you a hipster?

Organichu
09-09-2008, 11:59 AM
you live in Nolibs?

you a hipster?

No, but that's where the incident occurred. I live in South (Whitman), looking to move to Old City.

SeizeTheWeight
09-09-2008, 12:02 PM
This reminds me of how [no racism]white people live by the hope factor, e.g. "I hope no one hits me or anyone else with a hammer while I ride the subway...and how black people live by the wish factor, e.g. "I wish a motherf*cker would hit me or someone with a hammer while I ride the subway".[no racism]


I don't think this is a race thing, it's a personality thing.
I'm white, but my reaction was pretty much "damn, I wish I was there"
It's disgusting that nobody helped, especially when there's that many of them. People are scared sheep. If one guy did something, a couple more would have grown some balls and helped, but nobody had the nuts to jump in first.
I, like many here, it seems, have helped and been helped in violent situations. There are people who will help. Just not enough...

neekz0r
09-09-2008, 12:18 PM
This reminds me of how [no racism]white people live by the hope factor, e.g. "I hope no one hits me or anyone else with a hammer while I ride the subway...and how black people live by the wish factor, e.g. "I wish a motherf*cker would hit me or someone with a hammer while I ride the subway".[no racism]

You can add that stupid [no racism] tag all you want. That doesn't make your comment stop being a racist one. It's also very ignorant.

SaviorSix
09-09-2008, 12:22 PM
You can add that stupid [no racism] tag all you want. That doesn't make your comment stop being a racist one. It's also very ignorant.

No its not, its an accurate stereotype. You live in Oregon so that could be why you feel this way

Tsudo
09-09-2008, 12:24 PM
You can add that stupid [no racism] tag all you want. That doesn't make your comment stop being a racist one. It's also very ignorant.
Apparently you haven't seen "The Original Kings of Comedy". I suggest you watch it, it's quite funny. Pay particular attention to Cedric the Entertainer's bit ;)

...and if it were in fact true at all, it would also be...well...what is it called when you hate yourself or your own ethnicity? Well whatever it would be called for me to be racist against both black and whites...luck of the draw to come out a halfie, I guess.

tabloid
09-09-2008, 12:29 PM
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neekz0r
09-09-2008, 12:30 PM
No its not, its an accurate stereotype. You live in Oregon so that could be why you feel this way

What does that have to do with anything?


Apparently you haven't seen "The Original Kings of Comedy". I suggest you watch it, it's quite funny. Pay particular attention to Cedric the Entertainer's bit ;)

...and if it were in fact true at all, it would also be...well...what is it called when you hate yourself or your own ethnicity? Well whatever it would be called for me to be racist against both black and whites...luck of the draw to come out a halfie, I guess.

Nope, never seen it. If the OP was attempting at humor, my bad!

Tsudo
09-09-2008, 12:31 PM
What does that have to do with anything?



Nope, never seen it. If the OP was attempting at humor, my bad!

Lol it's all good, man.

I seriously doubt anybody on this forum lives by the "Hope" factor in this case; that's across the board.

NotStandingBy
09-09-2008, 12:38 PM
What does that have to do with anything?



Everything. Where you live determines how you think. In this case, since you have not experienced what the said poster said (the statement with "no racist"), you find it unbelievable. Quite frankly, I know a lot of black people who has that kind of thinking and white people with that kind of thinking.




Nope, never seen it. If the OP was attempting at humor, my bad!
You should. :) It's funny.

DaCougarMech
09-09-2008, 12:41 PM
hammerdin!

tabloid
09-09-2008, 12:42 PM
the people who watched and did nothing are worse than the attacker..

I posted the video on page 1.

Tsudo
09-09-2008, 12:42 PM
I posted the video on page 1.

What a coinkydink...

I, too, posted a video clip.

grapemaster
09-09-2008, 12:43 PM
Sucks, I got hit by a car once as a walking pedestrian, nobody stopped or even asked if I was okay. The driver didn't stop either, just looked in shock and drove off.

NotStandingBy
09-09-2008, 12:44 PM
Sucks, I got hit by a car once as a walking pedestrian, nobody stopped or even asked if I was okay. The driver didn't stop either, just looked in shock and drove off.

I've seen that, I saw someone about to get hit and I instantly grabbed their shoulder and pulled them back ASAP. People need to stop being so apathetic.

Tsudo
09-09-2008, 12:46 PM
I've seen that, I saw someone about to get hit and I instantly grabbed their shoulder and pulled them back ASAP. People need to stop being so apathetic.

America is a "sue-happy" society. I think that's what's caused a lot of it. If we help, we're almost more likely to be sued than thanked...or thanked and then sued.

Help an elderly lady from a car or something, BAM sexual harassment, or indecent touching.

bamatank
09-09-2008, 12:50 PM
I've seen that, I saw someone about to get hit and I instantly grabbed their shoulder and pulled them back ASAP. People need to stop being so apathetic.

I used to bike everywhere because I didn't have a car. My chain locked up while I was cross an intersection. The light changed while I was trying to move myself and my bike across. The that were stopped at the light didn't stay stopped to let me get by they drove right at me. Fortunately I was able to get out of the way in time, but they had no intention of stopping. They expected me to move or get run over.

People are just ****ing sick when they think they are faceless and no one will notice. They will run you down because they are in a car and removed from it. They will watch someone get murdered or beat and not do anything because its not them, all the while saying to themselves, "someone should do something."

Bluerain
09-09-2008, 12:52 PM
This reminds me of how [no racism]white people live by the hope factor, e.g. "I hope no one hits me or anyone else with a hammer while I ride the subway...and how black people live by the wish factor, e.g. "I wish a motherf*cker would hit me or someone with a hammer while I ride the subway".[no racism]

edit to clear up the "racism" lol

9rxDsqhgCJc


FCK That **** !!

Racist **** ..Why didn't he hammer the black dude to his right. That kid didn't do anything other then be white.

Slice it and explain it any way you want that **** is a racial attack.

FCKG PUNK !

RedSoxfan1978
09-09-2008, 12:53 PM
This is just odd. But I guess we know need hammer control and a 7 day wait to pick up hammers. Just in case....

Its a sad event for sure. Makes you really wonder about people today..

DYnomyte001
09-09-2008, 01:01 PM
Vincent: 17 million people. This is got to be the fifth biggest economy in the world and nobody knows each other. I read about this guy who gets on the MTA here, dies.
Vincent: Six hours he's riding the subway before anybody notices his corpse doing laps around L.A., people on and off sitting next to him. Nobody notices.

KRANE
09-09-2008, 03:37 PM
America is a "sue-happy" society. I think that's what's caused a lot of it. If we help, we're almost more likely to be sued than thanked...or thanked and then sued.

Help an elderly lady from a car or something, BAM sexual harassment, or indecent touching.What causes it is the denigrations of our society; and the reduction of morals and decency.

This "mind your own business" attitude attitude has a way of coming back to haunt us. Then once we develop a total lasse faire attitude toward every new type of decadents behavior, these types of things esculate.

Decency and codes of conduct aren't just old fashioned rules that were developed by our forbearers and should be discarded now. They came about because of the undeniable denigrations that society ultimately fall into when they are absent. And this is what results with out them.

ViceStan
09-09-2008, 03:39 PM
It's hammer time, ooooh inappropriate?.

SilverSpork
09-09-2008, 03:44 PM
America is a "sue-happy" society. I think that's what's caused a lot of it. If we help, we're almost more likely to be sued than thanked...or thanked and then sued.

Help an elderly lady from a car or something, BAM sexual harassment, or indecent touching.

Sadly this is true. I would be worried about pulling someone out of a flipped car, some will press charges...that is not the most pathetic part, it's the fact that the charges are even put to trial.

If I was in any other land, I wouldn't think twice about it. I love this country, I have lived in Belgium for five years, and I don't know what it is, but there is some inherent stupidity in Americans, and it seems to get worse as times goes by.

I honestly don't know what I would do in the situation of this hammer beatdown, I'd like to think I'd jump in and help though.

n00b_101
09-09-2008, 03:45 PM
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****ing bystanders.. i swear this world is fuked..

tabloid
09-10-2008, 06:49 AM
On another forum there are reports of this being gang related. The victim was a 5star blood or some ****.

Organichu
09-10-2008, 06:50 AM
Assailant was apprehended... his family saw the video and turned him in. I'll provide more details if I hear them.

YUL
09-10-2008, 07:09 AM
On another forum there are reports of this being gang related. The victim was a 5star blood or some ****.


yea my wife said something about that. 5 stars on face is cripts.

turns out the offender is crazy and has a history of being committed to institutions and then released

blastdoors
09-10-2008, 07:12 AM
Well that video was f*cked.

JTFisher79
09-10-2008, 07:45 AM
This is why I am glad i get to carry a gun at all times now. This random **** is really starting to get out of hand. It makes me sick to see those other people just move away. Now as a police officer i am required to act even off duty in a situation like that. But I would never stand there and let that happen. Before I was a cop I got involved and stopped things. Just las week like 5 minutes from my house a guy got off the train and some psycho stabbed him to death for no reason.

brbPalladium
09-10-2008, 08:02 AM
I'll say this: I was in a situation like this (though not nearly as bad) and didn't do anything. Felt like a massive pussy for weeks. Won't happen again.

Some people's lives are just so far removed from violence that when it happens they don't know what to do. I had never seen a fight outside of grade school or sports event before that. Still felt like a pussy though.

tinyman5000
09-10-2008, 08:14 AM
for some reason someone coming at me with a hammer doesnt scare me in the least

Minotaur
09-10-2008, 08:22 AM
This is why I am glad i get to carry a gun at all times now. This random **** is really starting to get out of hand. It makes me sick to see those other people just move away. Now as a police officer i am required to act even off duty in a situation like that. But I would never stand there and let that happen. Before I was a cop I got involved and stopped things. Just las week like 5 minutes from my house a guy got off the train and some psycho stabbed him to death for no reason.

That's pretty interesting, and commendable. I read and lurk over at Officer.com, and most of the guys say they're not paid to get involved off-duty; they'll call the unies; ain't worth getting killed over; blah blah. I can't say I would have that attitude. If I were a sworn leo, on-duty or off-duty, I'm definitely there. It's what I chose to do in life.

bluegold04
09-10-2008, 08:24 AM
Another shining example of the need for a well-armed populace. Why should I, as a law-abiding citizen, be denied the right to protect myself? Because, society proves again and again that it is wholly unreliable for the preservation of my safety.

YUL
09-10-2008, 08:28 AM
This is why I am glad i get to carry a gun at all times now.

shooting a gun in a crowded, confined area with children in it is a good idea?


This random **** is really starting to get out of hand. .

what do you mean by getting out of hand? Does the more you hear about stuff like that means that it's happening more often?

tinyman5000
09-10-2008, 08:29 AM
he had a hammer

just beat him up

JTFisher79
09-10-2008, 08:42 AM
shooting a gun in a crowded, confined area with children in it is a good idea?



what do you mean by getting out of hand? Does the more you hear about stuff like that means that it's happening more often?

I am not saying I would have shot him just for that reason. It is a crowded confined area. But if he comes at me we are trained to shoot at a weapons retention position in close with very minimal chance of missing. It is shooting at someone who is about 5 feet away. Also I guess I do just hear about it more and see it more as of late.

But yes i know a lot of cops who try not to get involved on duty. I am a cop 24 hours a day regardless. If I can do something about a problem them I will. call me a buff and make fun if you want but that is just how I feel

Uncle Bob
09-10-2008, 09:12 AM
strong pussy bystander syndrome or whatever its called

how about pick up **** and ruin the guy with the hammers life?

I believe the scientific pyschological term is 'diffusion of responsibility'. It's not so much people being pussies, it's the thinking that someone else will jump in and stop the violence. If it is just you, the attacker, and the victim in the subway car it is very likely you will intervene because only you have the power to stop the attack. If it is you plus 20 other people in the subway car with the attacker and victim you are less likely to intervene because you subconsciously look around to see if anyone else is doing anything about it or think there is someone in the crowd better able to handle it.

So to make a political statement out of this, whether it is a Katrina situation or a mugger- don't expect people to jump in and save you. Know the basics of how to look out for yourself.

tenthirtytwo
09-10-2008, 09:46 AM
I'm a big fan of firearms, but I have to heartily laugh at everyone talking about how this shows that more people need to be carrying guns. He had a ****ing hammer. You don't need a gun to stop someone like that, you only need a pair of testicles.

When you get carried away with the "everyone should have a gun for all situations" argument, it makes the rest of us who enjoy sensible gun ownership look just as loony as you. Guy attacking someone with a stick? Get a shotgun. Need to open a can of vegetables? Grab your nearest .45 and go to work.

If more people had guns, we wouldn't have so many can opener related incidents!

XiZBiT
09-10-2008, 10:14 AM
You can add that stupid [no racism] tag all you want. That doesn't make your comment stop being a racist one. It's also very ignorant.

I actually found it quit amusing

Wompinblazer
09-10-2008, 10:19 AM
I lose faith in humanity more and more each day.

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world"
-Ghandi

What do I mean?

Be overly nice to people to make up for the ****ty things happening to them. Give the homeless change, food, and shelter.
Give the poor, hope.
Give the rich a hug.
Give everyone a smile, and you can counteract these things (no hipppie).

I say these things to let you know that you should never give up, just try harder.

The people that say one person cant make a difference are full of ****. One person did make a difference and thats why we are reading this story.

Anti_Illuminati
09-10-2008, 10:28 AM
Through it all, disgusted investigators said, at least 10 passengers stood by and did nothing as the random attack moved from the train to the platform, when the hammer-wielding maniac tried to push his victim down onto the train tracks.

When the beating was finished and the suspect fled with the little boy, the victim staggered back onto the train, bloodied, confused and alone, said Detective Kenneth Roach, of Central Detectives.

And even then, no one tried to help him.

http://www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com/transcripts/Reality_Check_Alan_Watt.html

Far as the attack goes, sounds like another MK-ULTRA plan has gone according to plans. Watch for new bills to be drafted up soon requiring mental health evaluations, and required registration to buy home repair/construction tools such as hammers, etc. Either that or the guy finally went nuts from SSRI drugs (which will be massively downplayed by MSM if they find he was on pharmaceuticals--not allowed to bash big pharma).

bluegold04
09-10-2008, 10:58 AM
I'm a big fan of firearms, but I have to heartily laugh at everyone talking about how this shows that more people need to be carrying guns. He had a ****ing hammer. You don't need a gun to stop someone like that, you only need a pair of testicles.

When you get carried away with the "everyone should have a gun for all situations" argument, it makes the rest of us who enjoy sensible gun ownership look just as loony as you. Guy attacking someone with a stick? Get a shotgun. Need to open a can of vegetables? Grab your nearest .45 and go to work.

If more people had guns, we wouldn't have so many can opener related incidents!


I failed to read where it was asserted that more need to be carrying guns, but that those who wish to carry be allowed to do so. I live in a state that does not allow it, and that is where my argument arises from.

You are satirizing and generalizing the argument. No, a gun is not the solution to all problems. What about 3 guys attacking you with a stick? Then is it so outrageous that a gun would contribute to your personal safety?

Furthermore, what about women? They lack testicles genetically, not by choice. However, according to your argument, they are 'loony' for desiring a tool with which to protect themselves...

Wompinblazer
09-10-2008, 11:05 AM
http://www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com/transcripts/Reality_Check_Alan_Watt.html

Dude, I read that entire page. Is that guy high? The most unintelligent dribble I have ever read in my entire life.

tenthirtytwo
09-10-2008, 11:08 AM
I failed to read where it was asserted that more need to be carrying guns

You said: Another shining example of the need for a well-armed populace.



You are satirizing and generalizing the argument. No, a gun is not the solution to all problems. What about 3 guys attacking you with a stick? Then is it so outrageous that a gun would contribute to your personal safety?

What about 5? 10? 50? 1000? See, you do need a gun to fend off 1 person with a stick, because you need it to fend of 1000 people with sticks.

I'm not arguing against firearms, nor am I arguing against CCWs. I'm taking issue with moronic arguments for them.


Furthermore, what about women? They lack testicles genetically, not by choice. However, according to your argument, they are 'loony' for desiring a tool with which to protect themselves...

What about children? Children are physically unable to prevent violence to the extent that adults are, because they are small in stature. Therefore, we should arm children just in case.

None of your strawmen make any sense in light of this matter. You took an example of one guy on a crowded subway with a blunt instrument and said it was a "shining example of the need for a well armed populace". It isn't at all. It was one man, not 3 (or 50), and he wasn't surrounded by women (or children). There were plenty of people capable of stopping him without firearms.

bluegold04
09-10-2008, 11:27 AM
You said: Another shining example of the need for a well-armed populace.


Another shining example of the need for a well-armed populace. Why should I, as a law-abiding citizen, be denied the right to protect myself? Because, society proves again and again that it is wholly unreliable for the preservation of my safety.

I think we are arguing semantics, in that my statement was geared more towards the allowance of people to arm themselves, rather than the forced armament of the masses. The need is for the choice to exist.



What about 5? 10? 50? 1000? See, you do need a gun to fend off 1 person with a stick, because you need it to fend of 1000 people with sticks.

I'm not arguing against firearms, nor am I arguing against CCWs. I'm taking issue with moronic arguments for them.

Let me get this straight... A person is surprise attacked by another with a blunt object, this is a moronic argument for CCWs? Where then, are CCWs warranted?


None of your strawmen make any sense in light of this matter. You took an example of one guy on a crowded subway with a blunt instrument and said it was a "shining example of the need for a well armed populace". It isn't at all. It was one man, not 3 (or 50), and he wasn't surrounded by women (or children). There were plenty of people capable of stopping him without firearms.

And the bystanders didn't stop the attacker. But, because they were there, because the potential for them to intercede existed, the victim should be denied the right to self-protection? I do not agree with that assertion.

tenthirtytwo
09-10-2008, 11:35 AM
I think we are arguing semantics, in that my statement was geared more towards the allowance of people to arm themselves, rather than the forced armament of the masses. The need is for the choice to exist.


Then not only was your statement nonsensical, your word choice was poor as well.


Let me get this straight... A person is surprise attacked by another with a blunt object, this is a moronic argument for CCWs? Where then, are CCWs warranted?

One person is attacked by a person with a blunt object on a crowded subway, yes that is a moronic argument for CCWs. What about if there was no object involved? What if one guy was just beating the other guy up? Does everyone around need to be carrying guns then?


And the bystanders didn't stop the attacker. But, because they were there, because the potential for them to intercede existed, the victim should be denied the right to self-protection? I do not agree with that assertion.

Yes, I definitely said that they should be denied the rights to CCWs.

bluegold04
09-10-2008, 11:49 AM
You argue against yourself. In one breath you say you are not arguing against CCWs, and in the next you say the right should be denied to people...

Again, where is a CCW warranted? If not for personal defense.

It's not as if I am advocating the removal of certification processes.

Perhaps my initial statement was hastily written, and I grant that, but the rest of that post alluded to individual liberties and rights, as they pertain to self-defense.

But whatever, man. This is going nowhere for either of us. I wish you well, and hope that you are never faced with a situation where you need to use a gun for self-defense.

Regards,
bg

tinyman5000
09-10-2008, 11:52 AM
its a HAMMER

tenthirtytwo
09-10-2008, 11:58 AM
Hahaha, you argue against yourself. In one breath you say you are not arguing against CCWs, and in the next you say the right should be denied to people...

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sarcasm

Not once did I say, or even hint, that CCW rights should be denied. You are talking to a firearm owner.


Again, where is a CCW warranted? If not for personal defense.

A CCW is warranted whenever it is needed! And people are welcome to get CCWs as they please. You can't in your state (one of what, 2?) and obviously you are irritated about that. Move away. Go to a state where you can get one and enjoy it.

Whenever a gunman enters a church and starts blowing people away with a shotgun, a CCW is needed. Whenever a lunatic enters a classroom and starts shooting students randomly, a CCW is needed. But, one person physically assaulting another on a crowded subway while surrounded by 50 other people is not where it is needed.

If you don't see the difference in those situations, then no amount of explaining will help you.

KRANE
09-10-2008, 01:53 PM
I believe the scientific psychological term is 'diffusion of responsibility'. It's not so much people being pussies, it's the thinking that someone else will jump in and stop the violence. If it is just you, the attacker, and the victim in the subway car it is very likely you will intervene because only you have the power to stop the attack. If it is you plus 20 other people in the subway car with the attacker and victim you are less likely to intervene because you subconsciously look around to see if anyone else is doing anything about it or think there is someone in the crowd better able to handle it.Don't wait around for the others. Unless there's a law enforcement individual present, you don't need their permissions. If you see wrong, it's you civil and moral duty to do something and not just stand around and watch someone else get hurt. If you're really that indecisive, then ask yourself this, "if I were in that vulnerable position, would I want someone to help me?"

davideric05
09-10-2008, 02:23 PM
I actually happened to see this video this morning on the news, its pretty ****ed up. but you can obviously see that the guy wasnt mentally stable.

Though if i had seen this i believe i would had done smething but then again ive never been put in that situation.

I have some built up aggression inside of me for sometime now though and if i ever seen this i would prolly do more then help that person, the attacker would be very regretful after i was done.

RedSoxfan1978
09-10-2008, 04:00 PM
its a HAMMER

And?? Are you implying that a hammer is not a deadly weapon? If someone hit me or someone else in my presence with a hammer then I view that as a deadly threat and will respond accordingly.

MantisShrimp
09-10-2008, 04:20 PM
The victim must have been a secular humanist, the iPod, the symbol of the great selfish satanism engulfing this country. That's why I don't sleep on trains. The cowardice of the bystanders is deplorable, but psychologically documented....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect

MantisShrimp
09-10-2008, 04:24 PM
Don't wait around for the others. Unless there's a law enforcement individual present, you don't need their permissions. If you see wrong, it's you civil and moral duty to do something and not just stand around and watch someone else get hurt. If you're really that indecisive, then ask yourself this, "if I were in that position, would I want someone to help me?"

That's not how the average person behaves in a crisis. In America, we are trained from a very young age to believe that crisis management is the domain of specific crisis management personnel. That's why most of the time when you see people going above and beyond, they usually are soldiers, cops, firemen, etc...people who behave in crisis management roles at other times...even though there are usually other completely capable civilians on hand.

I'm with you though. I'm usually the guy being pulled off the guy who started a fight at a club or party. I acknowledge however that life threatening situations are different and I'm not sure of my own limits (due to lack of crisis training.)

Malodrax
09-10-2008, 05:24 PM
the guy had a hammer and i['m guessing noone had a weapon of anysort. Even if all ten of them engaged in a well-coordinated attack on the guy there is still a chance that (one or more) could suffer a severe blow to head from the hammer. So everyone has this thought going through their head and thus noone does anything


Not saying i would stand by and watch... just saying that i can understand the bystander effect in this situation.

JTFisher79
09-10-2008, 05:27 PM
With my use of force levels someone running at me with a hammer justifies deadly force.

Mudkip
09-10-2008, 05:38 PM
wow i'm never going to sleep on an nyc subway again

KRANE
09-10-2008, 05:41 PM
With my use of force levels someone running at me with a hammer justifies deadly force.Your system is irrational. And illegal

JTFisher79
09-10-2008, 05:43 PM
how is it irrational. he is attacking me with a deadly weapon

KRANE
09-10-2008, 06:14 PM
how is it irrational. he is attacking me with a deadly weaponBecause deadly force is only justified to protect your LIFE or that of another person. For example, a man in a wheel chair coming at you with a hammer is not life threatening. You can't blow him away with a shot gun and say you were in fear of your life.

JTFisher79
09-10-2008, 06:18 PM
Because deadly force is only justified to protect your LIFE or that of another person. For example, a man in a wheel chair coming at you with a hammer is not life threatening. You can't blow him away with a shot gun and say you were in fear of your life.

Exactly..in that situation he could have killed that guy with a hammer or somebody else. That attack would justify deadly force. Do you have a problem with a hammer being a deadly weapon

KRANE
09-10-2008, 06:28 PM
Exactly..in that situation he could have killed that guy with a hammer or somebody else. That attack would justify deadly force. Do you have a problem with a hammer being a deadly weaponA hammer is not a deadly weapon--it is a tool! Don't resort to exaggeration to prove your point.

To be legally justified, you have to balance force with with an equal amount of force.

JTFisher79
09-10-2008, 07:44 PM
I am not debating this but a hammer is a deadly weapon. So you mean to tell me that if I get craked with the claw side of a hammer it couldn't kill me. A deadly weapon is not only a knife and a gun. Ask any cop that

GApump
09-10-2008, 07:57 PM
? 303.10. Guideline sentence recommendations: enhancements.

(a) Deadly Weapon Enhancement.

(1) When the court determines that the offender possessed a deadly weapon during the commission of the current conviction offense, the court shall consider the DWE/Possessed Matrix (? 303.17). An offender has possessed a deadly weapon if any of the following were on the offender?s person or within his immediate physical control:

(i) Any firearm, (as defined in 42 Pa.C.S. ? 9712) whether loaded or unloaded, or

(ii) Any dangerous weapon (as defined in 18 Pa.C.S. ? 913), or

(iii) Any device, implement, or instrumentality designed as a weapon or capable of producing death or serious bodily injury where the court determines that the defendant intended to use the weapon to threaten or injure another individual.

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/204/chapter303/s303.10.html

WIPump
09-10-2008, 08:01 PM
< cop...

Justification for using deadly force:

Weapon, Intent, delivery system

Hammer: Deadly Weapon
Intent: Repeated strikes
Delivery system: Arm & hands

100% justified shooting.

Dont even need to wait until said thug hits sleeping person with hammer... He so much as raises it in a striking movement, or simply does not stop when told... thats shows pure intent.


Out

Edit: In certain situations, hands can be deadly weapons (waits for flames to spark a huge debate) Bring it.

JTFisher79
09-10-2008, 08:17 PM
Glad I am not alone in this debate. Yes I have heard of hands being considered deadly weapons when possessed by people with certain skill using those skills in a capacity to intentionally hurt another.

Apollo 13
09-10-2008, 08:18 PM
****ing bystanders.. i swear this world is fuked..

how do you know this guy doesn't have a pistol on them? You know being a hero some times get ppl killed.

JTFisher79
09-10-2008, 08:22 PM
It's has come to the point that i am no longer shocked that nobody does anything. The same people who do nothing are the ones that get upset when something happens to them and nobody does anything. If more people stood up to guys liek this maybe scumbags would think twice bout what they are doing

WIPump
09-10-2008, 08:24 PM
Glad I am not alone in this debate. Yes I have heard of hands being considered deadly weapons when possessed by people with certain skill using those skills in a capacity to intentionally hurt another.

well yes... but most of the time no. For example, say there was an all out brawl... 1 person gets knocked out, the other person keeps hitting them in the head and does not stop. This likely will cause death, therefore a justification in deadly force.

As a police officer... say I get cold cocked right in the left eye, I go blind temporarily and get knocked on my ass. I have a guy wrapped up ontop of me slamming my head into the ground, I start getting dizzy and lose conciousness. If Im lucky I get a shot off before I go unconcious.

This is just for the sake of argument where people think guns are only used to protect themselves against guns.

JTFisher79
09-10-2008, 08:27 PM
Gotta love "the totality of the circumstances" Makes everything so vague. That is why our job is so hard. Almost nothing is cut and dry

Thy_Kingdom
09-10-2008, 08:30 PM
I lose faith in humanity more and more each day.
Bystander affect.

A hammer is not a deadly weapon--it is a tool! Don't resort to exaggeration to prove your point.

To be legally justified, you have to balance force with with an equal amount of force.
It's a deadly weapon, whether he was using a 2x4, a hammer or a p89. It was a deadly weapon, and

Klippymitch
09-10-2008, 08:33 PM
A hammer is not a deadly weapon--it is a tool! Don't resort to exaggeration to prove your point.

To be legally justified, you have to balance force with with an equal amount of force.

A blow to the head by hammer could easily kill you.

WIPump
09-10-2008, 08:34 PM
To be legally justified, you have to balance force with with an equal amount of force.

You couldn't be more wrong... that's not your fault though, most people think that.

TheLasher
09-10-2008, 08:35 PM
I hope they nail whoever did this

tenthirtytwo
09-10-2008, 08:35 PM
I hope they nail whoever did this

Was that a hammer joke?

If so...it was awesome.

Klippymitch
09-10-2008, 08:38 PM
It wasn't just a month or two ago when someone chopped a dude's head off with a knife on a greyhound bus in Canada. I'm hoping this is not becoming a trend.

BigLarge
09-11-2008, 12:12 AM
Your system is irrational. And illegal


Because deadly force is only justified to protect your LIFE or that of another person. For example, a man in a wheel chair coming at you with a hammer is not life threatening. You can't blow him away with a shot gun and say you were in fear of your life.


A hammer is not a deadly weapon--it is a tool! Don't resort to exaggeration to prove your point.

To be legally justified, you have to balance force with with an equal amount of force.

As a cop, I am going to tell you that you are 100% incorrect.

I have been trained extensively in the "use of force" and we are supposed to EXCEED the amount of force used by the suspect by 1.

Example:

If someone is using their firsts against me, I can pull my baton.




In short, if someone pulls a hammer on me, they will get shot.


EDIT: Oh! I just remember this. In MY city there was a DOUBLE MURDER by a man wielding, none other, than a claw hammer. That is correct. One man killed TWO women with a claw hammer. And I saw the crime scene photographs.

Now tell me that a hammer is not a deadly weapon.

Shall I provide a link?

JTFisher79
09-11-2008, 01:24 AM
It wasn't just a month or two ago when someone chopped a dude's head off with a knife on a greyhound bus in Canada. I'm hoping this is not becoming a trend.

I remember reading about that. That was really messed up.

AZPump
09-11-2008, 04:24 AM
A hammer can be, and forever will be, considered a deadly weapon in the eyes of law enforcement. If a hammer is wielded by someone and they are threatening harm or actually harming someone, then a gun better be drawn by the cop.

If anyone ever came at me with a hammer it would be two in the chest and one in the head.

'Nuff said. End.

Fifth Column
09-11-2008, 05:10 AM
I find it funny how whenever something like this happens, RARELY does anyone do anything but stand around and watch. Yet when it comes to talking about it afterward on a message board, EVERYONE claims that they would have been the one heroic person to step in and save the day. Not singling out anyone here in particular, as I don't doubt that some of you would. Going by sheer odds, however, I say most of you are lying. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that brave people are few and far between in real life... yet when it comes to people on the internet it's somehow a different story. Every random yahoo who posts here just happens to fall into the Charles Bronson category. :rolleyes:

wendel34
09-11-2008, 05:46 AM
how do you know this guy doesn't have a pistol on them? You know being a hero some times get ppl killed.

you dont know that he has a pistol, you cant use deadly force on a guess weather he has a weapon or not. x2 True, some people die trying to be a hero........

wendel34
09-11-2008, 05:48 AM
A hammer can be, and forever will be, considered a deadly weapon in the eyes of law enforcement. If a hammer is wielded by someone and they are threatening harm or actually harming someone, then a gun better be drawn by the cop.

If anyone ever came at me with a hammer it would be two in the chest and one in the head.

'Nuff said. End.



100 % correct sir !!!

momo5
09-11-2008, 06:24 AM
Wow thats pretty ****ed up, glad the guy survived. If I saw this guy on the streets I'd probably beat him as close to death as physically possible without actually getting murder charges.

you would be no better than the man himself, people think it's the right thing to do to say oh kill this man he is not human. Thing is people don't know the facts nobody does are you sure this man did this for no reason at all? It's like saying a guy avenged his daughter rape by beating a guy up, but the media reports it as a man being a pyschopath attacking another man for no reason but yet you would want to kill this man or hurt him.

Reminds of the green mile actually. SO quick to condemn those without hard truth and facts.

momo5
09-11-2008, 06:26 AM
A hammer can be, and forever will be, considered a deadly weapon in the eyes of law enforcement. If a hammer is wielded by someone and they are threatening harm or actually harming someone, then a gun better be drawn by the cop.

If anyone ever came at me with a hammer it would be two in the chest and one in the head.

'Nuff said. End.

or you could just shoot him in the arm holding the hammer or maybe his leg? Don't see why you would need to kill him. He maybe able to kill you with a hammer but he can't do it if he is demobilized or the de armed by taking out the arm or hand holding it. I'm pretty sure if you shot him in the knee cap he would not be harming you with that hammer.

ajzoot
09-11-2008, 06:29 AM
I find it funny how whenever something like this happens, RARELY does anyone do anything but stand around and watch. Yet when it comes to talking about it afterward on a message board, EVERYONE claims that they would have been the one heroic person to step in and save the day. Not singling out anyone here in particular, as I don't doubt that some of you would. Going by sheer odds, however, I say most of you are lying. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that brave people are few and far between in real life... yet when it comes to people on the internet it's somehow a different story. Every random yahoo who posts here just happens to fall into the Charles Bronson category. :rolleyes:

x125412519

The only time you can count on hero's coming out of the woodwork is if someone (smaller than they are) is pushing around a woman, other than that, people just look on in awe without lifting a finger. Of course, when the shock wears off they realize they probably could have done something, but the amount of random passers by that are going to do anything is fukcing low.

momo5
09-11-2008, 06:36 AM
why risk your life for someone you don't know though, and why help? People have sued people just cause they can for helping them.

INSANEREACH
09-11-2008, 06:56 AM
I think the reason why no one stepped in ,is not so much cowardice but the way modern society is now. We only really care for ourselves and we expect the Police to protect us. If the Police or no one in authority is there we feel impotent. Not only that but at least in the UK if anyone or a few people had stepped in and taken the attacker out. I would not be surprised if the Police at least initially arrested them also. Because he sounds like a maniac ,he has a weapon ,it will take a considerable amount of force to make him no longer a problem. You might have to break bones.

Some people do step up and intervene. I myself stopped a petrol station getting robbed why? because the guy who was the assistant who they may have hurt or killed is a friend. I didn't have to get violent all it took was to stay in the shop and stare at them. But at the end of the day ,they might not have been pussies , I didn't know what else they were carrying,one had a crowbar. Would I do that if the guy wasn't a friend? doubt it if I'm honest, is my life worth less than his? I could be killed or crippled. That is what runs through peoples heads. I'm no hero but yeah I'm selfish I admit that. It's fine being a tough guy on the internet but if you are ever in a situation like that believe me how you may react might surprise you. Personally I was scared ****less.

Fifth Column
09-11-2008, 07:14 AM
x125412519

The only time you can count on hero's coming out of the woodwork is if someone (smaller than they are) is pushing around a woman, other than that, people just look on in awe without lifting a finger. Of course, when the shock wears off they realize they probably could have done something, but the amount of random passers by that are going to do anything is fukcing low.*Waits for the inevitable replies to the effect of "I agree bro, but trust me when I say that I am not one of those pussies!! I would have beaten the **** out of that guy if I had been there!!!"

:rolleyes:

BigLarge
09-11-2008, 08:13 AM
you would be no better than the man himself, people think it's the right thing to do to say oh kill this man he is not human. Thing is people don't know the facts nobody does are you sure this man did this for no reason at all? It's like saying a guy avenged his daughter rape by beating a guy up, but the media reports it as a man being a pyschopath attacking another man for no reason but yet you would want to kill this man or hurt him.

Reminds of the green mile actually. SO quick to condemn those without hard truth and facts.

Seems perfectly logical (serious)... HOWEVER, im in law enforcement and have studied law. And the law doesnt work like that.

To be justified in using a deadly weapon, you must be in fear for your LIFE or anothers. And if you shoot someone in the knee, you probably arent really in fear for your life.
Honestly, really think and PUT yourself in a life or death situation. Someone could really DIE here. Your not going to do whatever it takes, RIGHT NOW, to stop this. And that means, if you have a gun, shooting them in the chest or head.

There is lots of case law regardin this exact type of incident, and what the US Supreme Court says goes.

Minotaur
09-11-2008, 08:41 AM
To be justified in using a deadly weapon, you must be in fear for your LIFE or anothers. And if you shoot someone in the knee, you probably arent really in fear for your life.


Just a curiosity... no judgments (hey, I'm the cops' side :D)...

If you could have just disabled the attacker and stopped the attack, and you used deadly force instead, would you be subject to discipline? Or is a situation like that your discretion and a judgment call, with some investigation and no real repercussions?

BigLarge
09-11-2008, 08:49 AM
Just a curiosity... no judgments (hey, I'm the cops' side :D)...

If you could have just disabled the attacker and stopped the attack, and you used deadly force instead, would you be subject to discipline? Or is a situation like that your discretion and a judgment call, with some investigation and no real repercussions?

In what situation? About the original post about the hammer guy in the subway?

Minotaur
09-11-2008, 09:16 AM
In what situation? About the original post about the hammer guy in the subway?

Yes the o.p., or even a similar situation. I think, for myself (of course I'm not a leo), I would attempt to disable him by a shot to the arm or leg. If that didn't stop him, he dines in Hell tonight. No questions asked. Being a civilian I don't know how much discretion you have to use deadly force.

leafs43
09-11-2008, 09:33 AM
Cmon guys you don't get it.


BAN HAMMERS!!




But bring back hammer pants.......

Minotaur
09-11-2008, 09:36 AM
BAN HAMMERS!!


The mods use them all the time. :D

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u12/Minotauros_2007/thor-painting.jpg

KRANE
09-11-2008, 10:21 AM
As a cop, I am going to tell you that you are 100% incorrect.

I have been trained extensively in the "use of force" and we are supposed to EXCEED the amount of force used by the suspect by 1.

Example:

If someone is using their firsts against me, I can pull my baton.




In short, if someone pulls a hammer on me, they will get shot.


EDIT: Oh! I just remember this. In MY city there was a DOUBLE MURDER by a man wielding, none other, than a claw hammer. That is correct. One man killed TWO women with a claw hammer. And I saw the crime scene photographs.

Shall I provide a link?Nothing personal, but cops have a long history of getting away with things that would get an ordinary citizen into a lot of trouble. I've heard of many instances where the suspect was running away when he was shot in the back, and the cop claimed he was in fear of his life.




Now tell me that a hammer is not a deadly weapon.I've made my statement, and stand by it.
how do you know this guy doesn't have a pistol on them? You know being a hero some times get ppl killed.Then sobeit. We all die sooner or later and I can't think of a more honorable way to go than helping someone in need.

On the other hand, that doesn't mean I don't love my life as much as anybody else, but that kind of sacrifice is the greatest any human can make. And if the person that you help is a stranger, then the act is all the more selfless.
You couldn't be more wrong... that's not your fault though, most people think that.So if someone throws their drink in your face you can beat them to death with a pipe? I think not.

NJPump
09-11-2008, 12:30 PM
A hammer is not a deadly weapon--it is a tool! Don't resort to exaggeration to prove your point.

To be legally justified, you have to balance force with with an equal amount of force.


[/b]

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/204/chapter303/s303.10.html


< cop...

Justification for using deadly force:

Weapon, Intent, delivery system

Hammer: Deadly Weapon
Intent: Repeated strikes
Delivery system: Arm & hands

100% justified shooting.

Dont even need to wait until said thug hits sleeping person with hammer... He so much as raises it in a striking movement, or simply does not stop when told... thats shows pure intent.


Out

Edit: In certain situations, hands can be deadly weapons (waits for flames to spark a huge debate) Bring it.


As a cop, I am going to tell you that you are 100% incorrect.

I have been trained extensively in the "use of force" and we are supposed to EXCEED the amount of force used by the suspect by 1.

Example:

If someone is using their firsts against me, I can pull my baton.




In short, if someone pulls a hammer on me, they will get shot.


EDIT: Oh! I just remember this. In MY city there was a DOUBLE MURDER by a man wielding, none other, than a claw hammer. That is correct. One man killed TWO women with a claw hammer. And I saw the crime scene photographs.

Now tell me that a hammer is not a deadly weapon.

Shall I provide a link?



I dont see how you can still argue with these points that were made to you but you seem to anyway.


Nothing personal, but cops have a long history of getting away with things that would get an ordinary citizen into a lot of trouble. I've heard of many instances where the suspect was running away when he was shot in the back, and the cop claimed he was in fear of his life.



I've made my statement, and stand by it.Then sobeit. We all die sooner or later and I can't think of a more honorable way to go than helping someone in need.

On the other hand, that doesn't mean I don't love my life as much as anybody else, but that kind of sacrifice is the greatest any human can make. And if the person that you help is a stranger, then the act is all the more selfless.So if someone throws their drink in your face you can beat them to death with a pipe? I think not.


As you said this isnt personal just trying to sort this out....


You can't shoot anyone in the back without getting investigated for it. People turn before getting hit but rearely does this actually happen.
I don't understand your point on this one because i realyl can only think of maybe 2 police involved shootings that made it to a national level (most of them do) that involved a citizen getting shot in the back.

You have to remember police can use 1 step above you when it comes to force. If you are fighting we can use oc/taser (if u have one). If you have a weapon that we can take you down buy using deadly force its that simple.

You can kill someone with a hammer therefore it can be considered a deadly weapon....

do you believe a vehicle is a deadly weapon?

AZPump
09-11-2008, 02:21 PM
or you could just shoot him in the arm holding the hammer or maybe his leg? Don't see why you would need to kill him. He maybe able to kill you with a hammer but he can't do it if he is demobilized or the de armed by taking out the arm or hand holding it. I'm pretty sure if you shot him in the knee cap he would not be harming you with that hammer.

No where is anyone in law enforcement ever taught to shoot to wound. You are taught to shoot to STOP. What happens in the movies doesn't happen in real life. No one shoots the gun out of someone's hand, or shoots someone in the arm to make them drop the weapon or the leg to make them stop running. There is a reason why shooting targets have focus on the middle of the chest.

KRANE
09-11-2008, 02:46 PM
No where is anyone in law enforcement ever taught to shoot to wound. You are taught to shoot to STOP. What happens in the movies doesn't happen in real life. No one shoots the gun out of someone's hand, or shoots someone in the arm to make them drop the weapon or the leg to make them stop running. There is a reason why shooting targets have focus on the middle of the chest.That also why drawing a weapon is taught only as a last resort and in the case to prevent death of serious bodily injury.

Consider this: If a cop gets into a fight with a suspect who knocks the cop down and runs away. Can the cop then get up and shoot the suspect?

You can kill someone with a hammer therefore it can be considered a deadly weapon....You can kill someone with a pencil, but few people would refer to it as a deadly weapon.


do you believe a vehicle is a deadly weapon?No. It's a method of transportation. And a car is only dangerous if you're standing in front of it.

In addition, a baseball bat is used as a tool to play a sport, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be just as effective to beat the living day lights out of you.

However, as I've already illustrated, almost anything can be used as a weapon in the wrong hands.

BigLarge
09-11-2008, 05:22 PM
As a cop, I am going to tell you that you are 100% incorrect.

I have been trained extensively in the "use of force" and we are supposed to EXCEED the amount of force used by the suspect by 1.

Example:

If someone is using their firsts against me, I can pull my baton.




In short, if someone pulls a hammer on me, they will get shot.


EDIT: Oh! I just remember this. In MY city there was a DOUBLE MURDER by a man wielding, none other, than a claw hammer. That is correct. One man killed TWO women with a claw hammer. And I saw the crime scene photographs.

Now tell me that a hammer is not a deadly weapon.

Shall I provide a link?


I've made my statement, and stand by it.


No offense taken.

But... i've already provided a factual case that people HAVE been murdered by hammers. Yet you still choose to say that a hammer is NOT a deadly weapon? :confused:

I dunno how to make it any more clear.

BigLarge
09-11-2008, 05:26 PM
Just a curiosity... no judgments (hey, I'm the cops' side :D)...

If you could have just disabled the attacker and stopped the attack, and you used deadly force instead, would you be subject to discipline? Or is a situation like that your discretion and a judgment call, with some investigation and no real repercussions?

I would say that since it is POSSIBLE I could have stopped that attack WITHOUT using deadly force... but IF I choose to use deadly foce instead... that I would suffer zero consequences. The shooting WOULD be investigated, but am 100% confident that I would suffer ZERO disciplinary action.

Attempting to disarm that subject by means LESS than using deadly force puts everyone else in jeporady. What if I wasnt sucsessfull? Then he could have possibly disarmed me, and then shot people with MY gun.

No question. If I was there... he would have been ordered to STOP or i would SHOOT. If he did not STOP within a few seconds then he would be shot.

Minotaur
09-11-2008, 05:51 PM
I would say that since it is POSSIBLE I could have stopped that attack WITHOUT using deadly force... but IF I choose to use deadly foce instead... that I would suffer zero consequences. The shooting WOULD be investigated, but am 100% confident that I would suffer ZERO disciplinary action.

OK, that's what I was wondering.


Attempting to disarm that subject by means LESS than using deadly force puts everyone else in jeporady. What if I wasnt sucsessfull? Then he could have possibly disarmed me, and then shot people with MY gun.

Very true. I guess you must weigh the risks. All within seconds.


No question. If I was there... he would have been ordered to STOP or i would SHOOT. If he did not STOP within a few seconds then he would be shot.

I have a feeling I would do the same thing. I wouldn't be happy about it, but... \/:(\/ You gotta do what you gotta do.

Thanks.

BigLarge
09-11-2008, 05:53 PM
OK, that's what I was wondering.



Very true. I guess you must weigh the risks. All within seconds.



I have a feeling I would do the same thing. I wouldn't be happy about it, but... \/:(\/ You gotta do what you gotta do.

Thanks.

You seem to have plently of common sense. (serious)

Repped. :D

Minotaur
09-11-2008, 06:03 PM
You seem to have plently of common sense. (serious)

Repped. :D

Thanks.

As I've said to others on occasion, the biggest regret I have in my life is not having become a police officer. I was more interested in business and computers and just never gave le a thought. :rolleyes: Only now at my age I realize what I missed out on.

Well, maybe in my next life when I come back. :D

drew101
09-11-2008, 08:07 PM
WHAT THE HELL!!

When bull**** like that happens, I get really, REALLY PISSED OFF.

And the worst part is, NO ONE HELPED.

I should have been there...

BigLarge
09-11-2008, 11:01 PM
Thanks.

As I've said to others on occasion, the biggest regret I have in my life is not having become a police officer. I was more interested in business and computers and just never gave le a thought. :rolleyes: Only now at my age I realize what I missed out on.

Well, maybe in my next life when I come back. :D

Might not be too late!
Some sheriffs departments hire people in there 50s.

I went to the academy with a fellow who was 54 and a preacher.

RIP Quorthon
09-12-2008, 01:35 AM
A guy is beaten for five minutes with a hammer, catches the subway to a hospital, gets staples and then leaves....? No one does anything? The guy runs away and no one does anything?

Either the summary of events that was officially reported is bull****, or the victim was Superman and the other guy was a black Lex Luthor who thought his hammer was made of Kryptonite.

Minotaur
09-12-2008, 06:48 AM
Might not be too late!
Some sheriffs departments hire people in there 50s.

I went to the academy with a fellow who was 54 and a preacher.

Good to know. Thanks. I may look into it again. I was going to look into beach bike patrol and the 2 week course at the academy, but again, other things came up. I'd probably look into reserve or auxiliary, part time. I need to start hitting the municipal offices and pd's. Unfortunately I'm too invested in pay and benefits in my current job to chuck it.

I've been told this would be me:

"While driving around town the other day, I saw a cop issuing a traffic ticket. In the driver's seat of the pulled over sleigh? Santa. Yep. Red suit, red hat, white beard, rosey cheeks... Santa. Looking quite distraught, I might add. Hey cop! It's Christmas!!! And you just pulled over Santa Claus!!! You are *so* getting coal this year. Thank goodness no little kids were around."

:D

AZPump
09-12-2008, 01:56 PM
That also why drawing a weapon is taught only as a last resort and in the case to prevent death of serious bodily injury.

Consider this: If a cop gets into a fight with a suspect who knocks the cop down and runs away. Can the cop then get up and shoot the suspect?You can kill someone with a pencil, but few people would refer to it as a deadly weapon.

You are comparing apples to oranges. Unless I can ATRICULATE that the suspect was possibly going to kill someone else when they were running away from me, then the answer is no, given the circumstances you presented.

We are talking about a HAMMER, not just knocking someone down. I consider a hammer at the same level I consider a knife. A deadly weapon. You can argue the law all day long, it is still the law and it still comes down to how the situation is articulated and all the circumstances put together.

mistahans
09-12-2008, 02:12 PM
I go to Penn, and there was an article about this in the Penn newspaper. Apparently the victim was a lab tech here.

klemme
09-12-2008, 03:19 PM
can't the guy who got beat by a hammer sue the people that just watched it happen?

i thought there was a good samaritin law that required you go give aid to people.



i hate to say it but what happened is a good example of how things are going. at least from a teenagers perspective. we def. do not live in a society where you can count on someone having your back.

people talking about 'united we stand' in america... bull****. this article is just one good example of how afraid americans really are of each other. people watched a felony happening and did nothing. in my opinion, that too should be a crime.

we aren't a nation united. a flagpin or a bumpersticker doesn't make americans 'tight nit'. helping your fellow man makes you tight nit. we have gated our communities, locked our doors, and killed halloween out of fear of each other. we can't even help each other when one is getting attacked... but damn... i got a bumper sticker that says we're united!

/rant

leafs43
09-12-2008, 03:29 PM
can't the guy who got beat by a hammer sue the people that just watched it happen?

i thought there was a good samaritin law that required you go give aid to people.



i hate to say it but what happened is a good example of how things are going. at least from a teenagers perspective. we def. do not live in a society where you can count on someone having your back.

people talking about 'united we stand' in america... bull****. this article is just one good example of how afraid americans really are of each other. people watched a felony happening and did nothing. in my opinion, that too should be a crime.

we aren't a nation united. a flagpin or a bumpersticker doesn't make americans 'tight nit'. helping your fellow man makes you tight nit. we have gated our communities, locked our doors, and killed halloween out of fear of each other. we can't even help each other when one is getting attacked... but damn... i got a bumper sticker that says we're united!

/rant


Good samaritan laws vary from place to place.

Minotaur
09-12-2008, 03:33 PM
can't the guy who got beat by a hammer sue the people that just watched it happen?

i thought there was a good samaritin law that required you go give aid to people.


No. Good Samaritan laws protect people from being sued if they do nothing to help. A person who is CPR certifiied, and does not perform CPR cannot be sued.

Fifth Column
09-12-2008, 10:19 PM
can't the guy who got beat by a hammer sue the people that just watched it happen?

i thought there was a good samaritin law that required you go give aid to people.



i hate to say it but what happened is a good example of how things are going. at least from a teenagers perspective. we def. do not live in a society where you can count on someone having your back.

people talking about 'united we stand' in america... bull****. this article is just one good example of how afraid americans really are of each other. people watched a felony happening and did nothing. in my opinion, that too should be a crime.

we aren't a nation united. a flagpin or a bumpersticker doesn't make americans 'tight nit'. helping your fellow man makes you tight nit. we have gated our communities, locked our doors, and killed halloween out of fear of each other. we can't even help each other when one is getting attacked... but damn... i got a bumper sticker that says we're united!

/rantIf it says so on a bumper sticker it's gotta be true!

You think people should be required by law to jeopardize their own safety by intervening in a fight between two complete strangers, knowing nothing of the circumstances which caused it? Brilliant. :rolleyes:

Nasty$al
09-12-2008, 10:59 PM
I lose faith in humanity more and more each day.

Every "male" who was there and did nothing should have their fukking cock and balls removed and tattood with some bull**** on their heads to let the world know they are completely worthless as men. I fukking spit on those "men."