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kitsae
06-27-2008, 10:40 PM
I'm 5"10, 160 and have been lifting for about 18 months.

I used to weight 200 pounds. I've shed most of the bad weight, but continue to have love handles and a gut (34 waist).

I have been eating clean for 6 months, and have tried going hard on cardio for months.

The specific problem is this: when I start doing heavy cardio (5+ times a week, 45 minute intervals of fat burning), I start dropping weight (sub-160) and my gains in the gym STOP completely. Plus, the small gut and love handles remain.

What am I doing wrong? How can I get rid of this belly fat, while continuing to gain muscle?

THANKS!

ElayneTrakand
06-27-2008, 11:11 PM
Eat more to help with your gains at the gym.

ArchDukeOfTops
06-27-2008, 11:27 PM
What does the "5+ times a week, 45 minute intervals of fat burning" include?

My guess is, you're doing low intensity cardio.

If you're loosing weight, but not become leaner, and you're not gaining in the gym, then essentially the way you're doing your cardio is catabolic, or at the very least, counter-productive.

Just remember, more muscle means more calories burned even while not working out. This is where building muscle works to getting you leaner.

So the answer is, you want all exercise you do to promote muscle mass, even your cardio. Running on a treadmill for 45 minutes is not promoting muscle mass. I'm not saying no one should ever run or do low intensity, because it has its place for some, but you're current cardio is obviously not helping your current goals

Try high intensity cardio, whether it be sprints, circuit training, timed intervals etc.

If you make sure all cardio you do is focused around building muscle as well as burning calories and fat, and your diet is in check, I promise you'll notice an improvement.

Joshhd6
06-27-2008, 11:36 PM
What does the "5+ times a week, 45 minute intervals of fat burning" include?

My guess is, you're doing low intensity cardio.

If you're loosing weight, but not become leaner, and you're not gaining in the gym, then essentially the way you're doing your cardio is catabolic, or at the very least, counter-productive.

Just remember, more muscle means more calories burned even while not working out. This is where building muscle works to getting you leaner.

So the answer is, you want all exercise you do to promote muscle mass, even your cardio. Running on a treadmill for 45 minutes is not promoting muscle mass. I'm not saying no one should ever run or do low intensity, because it has its place for some, but you're current cardio is obviously not helping your current goals

Try high intensity cardio, whether it be sprints, circuit training, timed intervals etc.

If you make sure all cardio you do is focused around building muscle as well as burning calories and fat, and your diet is in check, I promise you'll notice an improvement.

thats what i do..seen great gains..when i ate more and exercised alot more i lost my handles and i was 150 pounds..

kitsae
06-28-2008, 12:17 AM
A few points of clarification:

(1) The 45 minutes of treadmill running consisted of 15 minutes low intensity (jog), 20 minutes medium intensity (running at half speed), and about 10 minutes of high intensity running (sprinting).

(2) I lift 3-4 times a week, for an hour. I really am pretty weak. I rep 135 on the bench, and 195 on squats (my workout is not limited to these exercises, just giving you an idea of my strength).

(3) I eat twice a day. I am at school and the dining hall meal plan I am on only gives me two meals a day. I eat very clean: a huge bowl of black and red beans, with a scoop of tuna mixed in; a chicken breast, a veggie burder; tons of veggies (peas, carrots, etc..); and a couple of scoops of non-fat plain yogurt with a teaspoon of honey and a scoop of grape nuts.

And yes, I eat this identical meal twice a day.

(4) I feel physically full after I eat. Not just satisfied, but FULL. I really can't imagine eating more.

(5) I know this board isn't about supplements, but on workout days I will do Nanovapor beforehand/Gold standard whey (two scoops) afterwards, with animal pak vitamins and a scoop of casein before bed (I only include this information to show that I do intake calories outside of my meals).

Thanks so much for the tips, guys. I enjoy reading your profiles and seeing your progress. It really motivates me. It was tough enough losing 40 pounds of pure fat off of my body. But ironically, it seems these last patches of fat are the absolute most difficult to get rid of!

Invidious
06-28-2008, 12:22 AM
Sounds like you are going catabolic...and the heavy cardio isn't helping. You need to find a way to eat more...especially protein..and lay off the cardio for a bit. When your lifts start increasing..then you can work the cardio back in slowly.

kitsae
06-28-2008, 12:23 AM
I have a tub of Cytogainer that I've had untouched for months. I'll just start pouring that stuff down my throat and see what happens :-)

ArchDukeOfTops
06-28-2008, 12:30 AM
First priority is getting that diet squared away.

1. You aren't eating nearly enough. Your gains will continue to stall if you keep this up.

2. Eating twice a day is turning you're metabolism into a slow fat storing machine !!

By the time you're lifing and doing cardio, you're body is preserving fat all it can because of the diet.

You should be eating six times a day, every 2-3 hours. I'm gonna be realistic, and say if you can barely eat twice, you'd have a pretty hard time doing this to begin with. Might I suggest getting a tub of whey protien and having a protien shake twice a day in addition to what you're already consuming. One when you first wake up, and one right after you work out. I think that alone would make a difference, and the end goal should still be eating every three hours. It can be done, you just have to plan ahead and be creative.

I will state that if you don't improve your diet, all the training adjustments in the world won't amount to a whole lot. . . . its that important

scrummie2
06-28-2008, 12:56 AM
2. Eating twice a day is turning you're metabolism into a slow fat storing machine !!



yep, there is your problem right there. You are overloading your body on limited calories, and your body metabolism has become incredibly efficient. And in this case, efficient in the bad way.

Primol
06-28-2008, 01:49 AM
The specific problem is this: when I start doing heavy cardio (5+ times a week, 45 minute intervals of fat burning), I start dropping weight (sub-160) and my gains in the gym STOP completely. Plus, the small gut and love handles remain.

People who use primarily cardio-based workouts and also have a poor diet frequently acquire that "skinny-fat" appearance where they have very little muscle definition coupled with excess body fat.

Some of this has been mentioned already. Here are things you must do, no exceptions:

1. Fix Your diet: You should be eating at least 6 small meals a day.
2. Change your cardio to 2-3 times a week and focus on high intensity interval training(HIIT) of 20 minutes(generally speaking)
3. Change your workout routine: Only do compound movements like squats, deadlifts, overhead presses, bench presses etc...


These things must happen for you to fix what you dont like about yourself. Nothing less! Gl!

kitsae
06-28-2008, 08:53 AM
To take this idea to the extreme -- I've heard of folks actually waking up in the middle of the night to have a shake. Is it sufficient to take some slow-digesting casein before I go to bed?

Euan-
06-28-2008, 10:01 AM
To take this idea to the extreme -- I've heard of folks actually waking up in the middle of the night to have a shake. Is it sufficient to take some slow-digesting casein before I go to bed?

Yeah. Maybe add some fat to help slow absorption as well.

Interrupting your sleep for a shake is silly.

kitsae
06-28-2008, 07:45 PM
Diet for today:

Morning: one scoop of whey in water

Lunch: Same as posted above

Workout: 22 pullups, 3 sets of 10 of the following: seated rows (85), dumbell row (35), dead lifts (115)

Post-workout: one scoop of whey in water

Dinner: same as above

Evening scoop of whey in water (9-ish, or three hours after dinner)

Before bed: one scoop casein in water

That's 6 ingestions of calories. Is that what you guys are recommending is best?

THANKS AGAIN!

ElayneTrakand
06-28-2008, 07:47 PM
Diet for today:

Morning: one scoop of whey in water

Lunch: Same as posted above

Workout: 22 pullups, 3 sets of 10 of the following: seated rows (85), dumbell row (35), dead lifts (115)

Post-workout: one scoop of whey in water

Dinner: same as above

Evening scoop of whey in water (9-ish, or three hours after dinner)

Before bed: one scoop casein in water

That's 6 ingestions of calories. Is that what you guys are recommending is best?

THANKS AGAIN!

lol NO!!!! NO!!! NO!!!

Eat real whole food. Oats, tuna, almonds, eggs, streak, chicken, etc. Eat!! With your weight you need AT LEAST 2000 calories. Your whey shakes have about 120 calories in them. So to put that into perspective: you would have to drink almost 17 whey shakes to get enough calories. BUT DON'T DO THIS!! Take 1 whey shake pre workout, 1 whey shake post workout, then EAT FOOD!!!

Maverick777
06-28-2008, 07:50 PM
Diet for today:

Morning: one scoop of whey in water

Lunch: Same as posted above

Workout: 22 pullups, 3 sets of 10 of the following: seated rows (85), dumbell row (35), dead lifts (115)

Post-workout: one scoop of whey in water

Dinner: same as above

Evening scoop of whey in water (9-ish, or three hours after dinner)

Before bed: one scoop casein in water

That's 6 ingestions of calories. Is that what you guys are recommending is best?

THANKS AGAIN!

you are not taking in enough calories, also your calories are not ones you really need to digest, you need to digest stuff to burn calories as well.

Eating meats while it actually put cals in your system require calories to be processed.

Try to limit yourself to 2-3 shakes a day, one morning, one pre workout, one post workout

kitsae
06-28-2008, 07:53 PM
It's really tough because the dining hall is open only twice daily.

I could try this: replace a couple of shake with a can of tuna. Would that do the trick?

Thanks :-)

kitsae
06-28-2008, 07:55 PM
Just to clarify, for lunch and dinner, when I said "same as above" I meant:

A big bowl of beans
One chicken breast
One veggie burger
Two eggs (just the whites)
bowl of non-fat yogurt, with grape nuts and a teaspoon of honey
lots of veggies.

I eat this same meal for lunch and dinner daily to keep my diet clean.

ElayneTrakand
06-28-2008, 07:56 PM
Gonna need more than a couple cans of tuna. Here is what I would suggest:

meal 1: oats
meal 2: whey shake + fruit
workout
meal 3: whey shake + fruit
meal 4: can of tuna + some almonds
meal 5: almonds, fruits, something
meal 6: chicken breast
meal 7: cottage cheese

that's easily 2000+ calories right there and most of it you can buy before hand and just store them away.

Maverick777
06-28-2008, 07:56 PM
Just to clarify, for lunch and dinner, when I said "same as above" I meant:

A big bowl of beans
One chicken breast
One veggie burger
Two eggs (just the whites)
bowl of non-fat yogurt, with grape nuts and a teaspoon of honey
lots of veggies.

I eat this same meal for lunch and dinner daily to keep my diet clean.

ahh that wasnt clear lol

ElayneTrakand
06-28-2008, 07:57 PM
Just to clarify, for lunch and dinner, when I said "same as above" I meant:

A big bowl of beans
One chicken breast
One veggie burger
Two eggs (just the whites)
bowl of non-fat yogurt, with grape nuts and a teaspoon of honey
lots of veggies.

I eat this same meal for lunch and dinner daily to keep my diet clean.

Oh I thought "same as above" meant the shake lol. Well that doesn't look too bad then. You need more carbs than just from veggies though. Quick Oats is what I suggest.

eja642
06-28-2008, 07:58 PM
It's really tough because the dining hall is open only twice daily.

I could try this: replace a couple of shake with a can of tuna. Would that do the trick?

Thanks :-)

Where the hell do you go to school?

It's June 28th.

and what kind of dining hall is only open twice a day? Mine was open from 5am-9pm.

ArchDukeOfTops
06-28-2008, 08:00 PM
Just to clarify, for lunch and dinner, when I said "same as above" I meant:

A big bowl of beans
One chicken breast
One veggie burger
Two eggs (just the whites)
bowl of non-fat yogurt, with grape nuts and a teaspoon of honey
lots of veggies.

I eat this same meal for lunch and dinner daily to keep my diet clean.

better, but you still aren't getting enough cals. I'm glad your upping your protien and eating six times a day though.

Breakfast you need to add a good source of carbs with your shake. Oatmeal would be great, or whole wheat toast. Hell a bowl of cereal would be better than nothing.

kitsae
06-28-2008, 08:24 PM
I have some oats laying around. I will throw that into breakfast.

As for dining hall hours, yeah it sucks....I go to Notre Dame and the dining hall has limited hours for the summer. 11-1:30 for lunch, and 5-7 for dinner.

I gave up my obsession for carbs about a year ago, and it has been tough to incorporate them back in my diet since. I'll try to throw in some whole wheat pasta or toast in two of my meals.

Thanks a lot guys. I will actually post up some pics in a sec to give you a better idea. I am definitely in the category of "skinny fat."

ArchDukeOfTops
06-28-2008, 08:33 PM
I have some oats laying around. I will throw that into breakfast.

As for dining hall hours, yeah it sucks....I go to Notre Dame and the dining hall has limited hours for the summer. 11-1:30 for lunch, and 5-7 for dinner.

I gave up my obsession for carbs about a year ago, and it has been tough to incorporate them back in my diet since. I'll try to throw in some whole wheat pasta or toast in two of my meals.

Thanks a lot guys. I will actually post up some pics in a sec to give you a better idea. I am definitely in the category of "skinny fat."

Fighting Irish Baby !!

blapblapblow
06-28-2008, 08:39 PM
I'm 5"10, 160 and have been lifting for about 18 months.

I used to weight 200 pounds. I've shed most of the bad weight, but continue to have love handles and a gut (34 waist).

I have been eating clean for 6 months, and have tried going hard on cardio for months.

The specific problem is this: when I start doing heavy cardio (5+ times a week, 45 minute intervals of fat burning), I start dropping weight (sub-160) and my gains in the gym STOP completely. Plus, the small gut and love handles remain.

What am I doing wrong? How can I get rid of this belly fat, while continuing to gain muscle?

THANKS!


you wanna get rid of the belly fat? KILL THE CARBS, and increase FATS! This will do the trick!

kitsae
06-28-2008, 09:17 PM
When you see these pics, you'll see what I'm talking about.

I couldn't upload because they were too large, but they are top quality so its a good trade-off:

(1) Frontal pic: http://www.nd.edu/~cwilso11/6-29-08.JPG

(2) Side pic: http://www.nd.edu/~cwilso11/6-29-08%20(2).JPG

Thanks!

kitsae
06-28-2008, 11:07 PM
BTW, used one of those electronic calipers for the first time (not sure how accurate they are).

Came up with a body fat of 19.7%. Does that seem accurate, given the above pics?

jacpot
06-29-2008, 01:07 AM
Dude just pack some muscle onto that frame man. From the pics it looks like you got the body of a newborn baby. Forget about the cardio. Just eat right and lift heavy ass weights and watch the results. It looks from the pictures as if your lifting with NO intensity whatsoever.

Maverick777
06-29-2008, 06:06 AM
When you see these pics, you'll see what I'm talking about.

I couldn't upload because they were too large, but they are top quality so its a good trade-off:

(1) Frontal pic: http://www.nd.edu/~cwilso11/6-29-08.JPG

(2) Side pic: http://www.nd.edu/~cwilso11/6-29-08%20(2).JPG

Thanks!

You have no muscle.

kitsae
06-29-2008, 09:58 AM
Dude just pack some muscle onto that frame man. From the pics it looks like you got the body of a newborn baby. Forget about the cardio. Just eat right and lift heavy ass weights and watch the results. It looks from the pictures as if your lifting with NO intensity whatsoever.

That's the plan, dude.

Scout4412
06-29-2008, 10:13 AM
Going on the treadmill for 45 minutes is so unnecessary. 20 minutes of HIIT or 20 minutes low intensity. Me I do cardio daily 3+ miles in morning. If no run in morning for PT I do 20 minutes of HIIT post workout.

kitsae
07-03-2008, 05:06 PM
Will working out too strenuously have a catabolic effect?

For example, today's leg workout consistent primarily of squats. I did:

3 sets of 8 at 185
3 sets of 6 at 205

Should I instead do something like 3 sets of 8 at 205? Or 3 sets of 5 at 225?

Thanks!

Quizzler
07-03-2008, 11:33 PM
Dude just pack some muscle onto that frame man. From the pics it looks like you got the body of a newborn baby. Forget about the cardio. Just eat right and lift heavy ass weights and watch the results. It looks from the pictures as if your lifting with NO intensity whatsoever.

Amen. Just what I was thinking

Spottydog
07-03-2008, 11:39 PM
Dude just pack some muscle onto that frame man. From the pics it looks like you got the body of a newborn baby. Forget about the cardio. Just eat right and lift heavy ass weights and watch the results. It looks from the pictures as if your lifting with NO intensity whatsoever.

I have to ask... WHAT if someone is just skinnyfat but they train their ASS off? I am fairly skinnyfat but I push 4x/wk until I feel like I'm gonna pass out if I do another rep (which gets me some major kudos from the guys at my gym LOL :)), and heavy too... <10 reps, usually 6-8, and usually to failure or one rep short of failure (do HIIT and some conditioning too). Providing their diet is clean and maintenance level.

Sorry OP for hijacking... maybe I should create my own thread :/